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Could Linux Still Go GPL3?
turnitover writes "Even though Linus has said 'The Linux kernel has always been under the GPL v2. Nothing else has ever been valid,' LinuxWatch is reporting that Richard Stallman has said it's ultimately up to the developers. And those on the LKML (Linux Kernel Mailing List) are going back and forth about whether to move to GPL3. The sticking point, not surprisingly, is the issue of DRM." In response to the DRM issue Linus wrote: "I personally think that the anti-DRM clause is much more sensible in the context of the Creative Commons licenses, than in software licenses. If you create valuable and useful content that other people want to be able to use (catchy tunes, funny animation, good icons), I would suggest you protect that _content_ by saying that it cannot be used in any content-protection schemes."
I don't know what the f*** Stallman is talking about. As Linus pretty much still rules the roost as to what officially goes into the kernel, how is it precisely, if he's so against GPL3, that GPL3 could make it into the kernel?
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
Ah wait... he's saying: protect the content from being "protected" (in the DRM sense)?
Ping Wales is carrying Alan Cox's views on GPLv3 and DRM.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
It's what every software project does when there's fundamental differences of opinion on which direction to go. If Linus and the other Linux software devs don't like GPL3, just fork the thing and take out the parts you don't like and use that license. After all, the text of the GPL 3 license should be able to be modified just like source code, right? You wouldn't be able to call it GPL 3, as it's just confusing. But GPL 2.99 might work nicely as a name.
AccountKiller
All of the controversy over the GPL3 isnt so much caused by the details, but by the underlying mentalities. RMS is more of the belief that freedom is a necessity and everyone should do everything in an open, free manner, and that people can't be trusted. Torvalds sees freedom as more of a tool, a bonus, and people/businesses are generally trustworthy. I like to think of it that way, and that is why I prefer BSD/MIT style over other licences. Businesses will always make proprietary software, that won't change. Proprietary isn't bad, and prohibiting it only restricts what the user/developer can do.
I am Spartacus
Well, I guess they could GPL3 all the portions of the kernel that aren't derivative works of Linus' parts. Which would be what, exactly? The build scripts?
The way I look at it, it is a matter of Apples and Oranges. Both men are correct in the spirit of the argument. I would just like to see a bit more cohesion regarding the Free/Oss community because I know this will get picked up and spun as "there Go Those In-Fighting Zealots". A case for each is made by Rick and Linus, with relevent information below.
From Linux Devices: Stallman notes that the discussion draft of GPLv3 includes language aimed at preventing free software from being "twisted" into service by companies attempting to deprive people of freedoms provided by the copyright system. Those using free software to build DRM-encumbered systems would be obliged, under the proposed license, to share enough "signatures," or keys, so that users of the software retain "full control," he says.
Another primary aim of the discussion draft of GPLv3 is to increase compatibility with other free software licenses that have appeared since the license was last revised 15 years ago, the interview suggests. This was done by making the license more tolerant of trademark clauses and patent retaliation clauses, such as those found in the Apache license. However, Stallman states that permissible retaliation clauses are limited to those addressing clear wrongdoing, adding that he hopes other license drafters will "decide to make their patent retaliations compatible." Empahsis mine
Linus stated in his mail that "And quite frankly, I don't see that changing. I think it's insane to require people to make their private signing keys available, for example. I wouldn't do it. So I don't think the GPL v3 conversion is going to happen for the kernel, since I personally don't want to convert any of my code." Again, emphasis mine.
In the end, the contributing developers AND the rights holders will determine what the outcome is.
If we don't fight for ourselves no one will.
Of course it's up to the developers what license they will
release their code under.
It's still up to Linus what gets into the kernel.
I don't know about you, but I would resent DRM being ported to linux. I switched operating systems to escape the restriction-ridden operating systems that are macintosh and windows.
(Commence the modding down by mac fanboys who think their favorite operating system has no restrictions whatsoever on what it can do).
Slow Down, Cowboy! It's been 60 minutes since you last successfully posted a comment.
Isn't the more important question: What does the Koran say about the GPLv3?
Ever.*
The kernel is GPL2 without the "or a later version" wording. All the contributions are GPL2. In order to convert the kernel to GPL(!2), you need to get approval from every single contributor to the kernel whose code is in any way in the kernel. Now, let's say you manage to do this, including approval from the executors of the estates of contributors who have passed on, you still need approval from Linus himself. Linus has already stated that he has no intentions of converting to GPL(!2).
Now, you could of course pseudo-fork the kernel by managing to get approval for all contributors, living and dead, aside from Linus. You could then re-write any code worked on by Linus (which, still, is a very substantial amount) and have a Linux-like system under the GPL(!2). Now, you just have to get approval to use the Linux trademark. Somehow, I doubt that will happen.
*For finite values of 'ever.' Restricted to this universe.
Karma: SELECT `karma` FROM `users` WHERE `userid`=138474;
Stallman is repeating his behaviour with Ulrich Drepper and Glibc, here. Ergo, if the leader of a project refuses to go the way he wants them to, he will attempt to turn other people associated with the project against said project leader.
I have found myself wondering what it is going to take before people will acknowledge the type of man that Richard Stallman truly is. He is seeking division here, and he is doing so purely for the sake of his own ego; because he cannot stand to be in any position other than one of complete control. I keep reading of example after example of this...it's his way or no way. Is that honestly what freedom means?
People try and claim that the real threat to the future of F/OSS is on the other side of the ideological/economic divide...that Stallman is a hero. To people who would continue to maintain such a view of the man, I ask you to look at what he is doing here.
Take a long, hard look.
There is a good article on LWN.net, but it's subscriber-only until Feb 9th: http://lwn.net/Articles/169797/
Here's an excerpt:
==BEGIN EXCERPT===
Another thing to keep in mind is that Linus can change his mind, even after seemingly painting himself into a corner with an absolute statement. One of your editor's favorite Linus pronouncements was issued almost exactly seven years ago. In response to a query on how to set up an i386 box with 4GB of memory, Linus stated:
Oh, the answer is very simple: it's not going to happen.
EVER.
You need more that 32 bits of address space to handle that kind of memory. This is not something I'm going to discuss further... This is not negotiable.
Less than one year later, Ingo Molnar's high memory patch was merged for 2.3.23.
===END EXCERPT---
There are a few things to keep in mind about DRM that have not been explained in a lot of the articles.
This was debated on ILUG yesterday. Here's the mail that started it: http://www.linux.ie/lists/pipermail/ilug/2006-Febr uary/086087.html
So it's worth keeping in mind that what Linus calls the GPLv3 is actually only the first discussion draft - but also, due to point #2 above, while changes may be made, I'd be pretty sure there will be DRM-combatting provisions in GPLv3.
Please help publicise swpat.org - the software patents wiki
I am sure that Linux will be switched over to GPLv3 less then 6 months after GPLv3 is actually released in its final form. The issues that Linux and some others are bringing up are mostly their misunderstanding of what is acually said in GPLv3 and how it corelates with the DMCA and case law of USA and with laws in other countries.
NOTHING in GPLv3 disallows implementing DRM with GPLv3 code. However there are some extra provisions that insure that if such implementations are made, the right to change that code (which is one of the most protected rights in the context of the GPL) can not be taken away from the users by a means of a DMCA-based lawsuits.
Oh, and if you make hardware and sell it to the users, please do not restrict what code users can use on that hardware, or if you do, please do it without using our (GPLv3'd) code. That is the TiVo scenario - the TiVo has sold a person a computer, but it uses a technical provision to deny thoses people an ability to execude their programms on the hardware. They might not be able to give us some services if our software does not work like theirs does or they would surely not support software problems in our software, but it is not right to use our code and then lock it from us in a box that we paid for.
I think that once the GPLv3 is polished a bit more and once someone explains all the provision of the GPLv3 and corresponding laws to the LKML people in ways that they will understand, the move to GPLv3 will be unobstructed (maybe except for by a few people who wish they would be writing code for BSD anyway).
At that point opening a Linux 3.0 branch with GPLv3 clean code only would be most reasonable thing to do.
Yes, this distinction is important. The way the GPL 3 is worded, from what I can tell, it's trying to say: "you can't design GPL-ed software to run on a device that will not accept modified versions of the software. If you design such a device/software combo, you must release the keys so that anyone can run modified code on your device. On the other hand, if the modified software can run properly on the usual device without those private keys, then you don't have to release the keys."
... after all, he doesn't even know what the (final) GPL 3 will be like!
It's this last sentenct of my paraphrase (in bold) that is not adequately clear in the current version of the GPL 3. What I wrote above in quotes is what the GPL 3 is trying to say in legalese (I think), but the way it is currently worded, Linus is worried that it will mean that signed (trusted) binaries will not be allowed.
Of course, what everyone seems to be forgetting is that we are reading a DRAFT of the GPL 3. So if there's something that isn't quite right, now is the time to fix it! Get involved in the discussion and tell those who are working on the GPL 3 that the wording needs fixing to make sure that it acts as intended. Linus is saying publicly that he doesn't like the way it is currently worded... but I wish he would emphasize "I think it should be reworded before the final release of GPL 3" rather than saying "I won't use GPL 3"
To summarize: the GPL 3 is currently a draft only. Let's get it fixed to avoid any problems in the future. I agree with RMS that it should not be possible to create a device/software combo based on GPL-code where no one is able to modify the code (and the code only makes sense in the context of the device it was made for). On the other hand I agree with Linus that we should not have a GPL that forbids signed/trusted binaries. It is possible to write a license that clearly differentiates these two cases... so let's do it!
Linus is an engineer. RMS is an idealogue. Linus wants to make a kernel that the maximum number of people can use for whatever they want. He doesn't care what you use it for. RMS wants to restrict you to only using it for things that are "free".
Linus has openly stated that DRM is OK with linux. There's your (potential) beef.
Linus is down with open source. RMS is down with free software. There is a difference, and they don't always get along.
Linux is a trademark owned by Linus Torvalds. The trademark is used to describe the kernel whose development is lead by Linus Torvalds. Nothing else can accurately (or legally) be described as Linux.. See this article for more information.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
Linus said
"Notice how the current GPLv3 draft pretty clearly says that Red Hat would have to distribute their private keys so that anybody sign their own versions of the modules they recompile,"
when the (draft of the) GPLv3 says
"3. Digital Restrictions Management. [...] no permission is given [...] for modes of distribution that deny users that run covered works the full exercise of the legal rights granted by this License."
As far as I understand, what the GPLv3 says is that as long as RedHat gives you a way to recompile the OS with your own signing keys (or without authentication at all) then they are allowed to distribute GPL software with whatever signature they want.
Where did I miss something ?
--Go Debian!
RMS said this is up to Linux kernel developers. Where did he say this is up to him?
Can you explain your reasoning. How did you reach this understanding?
Free Software: the software by the people, of the people and for the people. Develop! Share! Enhance! Enjoy!
It isn't going to be possible to move the kernel from v2 to v3 without the following happening:
1) Find the contributor of every piece of code in the kernel and pursade them to change to v3
2) Get all the code where either the contributor won't accept that, or you can't find them, and re-write it.
Seeing as a large proportion of the kernel has been written by Linus, by the time all code he wrote, and all the code derived from code he wrote was re-written by someone else, there wouldn't be much of the original kernel left.
Combination - fun iPhone puzzling
What if this happened?
A major network equipment manufacturer takes linux, adds some functionality and starts using it as their primary/only operating system for all of the equipment. They sell it as Linux-based to the masses. Because of the vendor's market position and the new "Linux Based" advertising campaign, most customers readily buy ths stuff up.
We soon find that the hardware will only work with firmware which has been digitally signed by the vendor. Also, although the source code is available (as required by GPL2) it is useless when run on hardware that doesn't have the right keys embeded in it.
The result is hardware that can't be updated except by the vendor and modifications to the software that are not usable by the very developers responsible for Linux in the first place.
So, is this a reason to be concerned about GPL2 vs GPL3? Is the vendor's actions compatible with the spirit/intent of GPL2? Perhaps more importantly, would the fact that something like this *could* happen cause developers who would have improved Linux to stay away?
No, it's up to Linus. Developers can submit code under GPL3, or any other license. But it's up to Linus whether to include that code in his kernel source - if he accepts that incoming license, and abides by it, including the requirement that he release his new code with the inclusions under the new license. If Linus doesn't want to release a new kernel under GPL3, he can't include GPL3 code, and doesn't have to.
However, if the contributors insist on submitting code with GPL3, and Linus declines to accept it, there's some legal arguments to be resolved before deciding whether they can fork the kernel and release it under GPL3, with his code. It depends on whether GPL2 code can be released under GPL3. I wonder what Eben Moglen has to say about that. But even if it's OK, that's still not "Linux". Linus owns the trademark, and cannot allow a fork which dilutes his trademark with a different product - he'd lose the trademark.
--
make install -not war
1. Make a public announcement that the kernel is moving to GPL3. This announcement would undoubtedly be picked up by all the relevant news organizations, and be common knowledge among developers (heh - there's no way it could possibly be kept quiet).
2. Schedule a transition period for the conversion. Say, 1 year.
3. During the transition period. all files start off being GPL2. And the end, all files still included in the kernel are marked as GPL3 clean.
4. Make all reasonable attempts to contact the copyright holders.
5. Cut over those files where the copyright holder has agreed to the license change. Those files which still aren't "GPL 3 clean" can still be included in the kernel.
6. For any files which aren't GPL 3 clean, either toss them, or rewrite them. Odds are, if the owner still wants his or her work kept in the kernel, they will go along with the conversion. But there is no downside to including a GPL 2 file in with the GPL 3 code, as long as it is marked as such.
The legal risk here to a lawsuit is minimal. Any contested file could be reverted back to GPL 2, if someone objected. Damages are unlikely, because of the widespread publicity (where the copyright holder should have known about the change, and failed to act). Also, the damages would be restricted to the impact of going from GPL 2 to GPL 3. THAT would be very hard to establish, at best.
However, the legal risk of the kernel right now due to submarine patents is significant. I wouldn't be surprised if Microsoft were planning to fund a company to do this right now. It would be far cheaper than their current SCO-funded lawsuit, and a lot more effective. This risk, and potential downside, far outweighs that of going to GPL 3.
Stallman and his various comments have long been a subject of very akward feeling and conversation.
Virtually everyone here has a massive respect for the man's technical genius, but at the same time virtually everyone realizes he's a bit of a lunatic.
I think it would be alot easier on all of us if we just killed him.
We're meeting at the flagpole in an hour. Bring your knives, bats, and decompilers.
Big ones, small ones, some as big as yer 'ead!
Give 'em a twist, a flick o' the wrist...
Scenario A:
Alan signs a Linux binary with his private key "A". He makes available public key "a". Many Linux installations are set to refuse to run binarys which are not signed to match one of the public keys they have in their "trusted keys" file, which typically include Alan's key "a". I can run a modified binary as follows: Create my own key pair "C" and "c". Add public key "c" to my trusted keys file. Modify, compile the program, sign the binary with "C". The program now runs.
Scenario B:
BadCorp's box has DRM-like hardware which refuses to run any code not signed by BadCorp's private key B. They use a modified, signed copy of Linux as the OS. They make available the source of their modifications (which are pretty much specific to their hardware) but nobody else can modify the kernel running on a BadCorp box because they don't have key B.
I think scenario B is what the GPL v3 language is trying to forbid, and scenario A is why GPL v3 doesn't require Alan's private key to be released. However, I'm not sure what happens in
Scenario C:
BadCorp produce a box which won't run unsigned code, and which only they can add keys to the trusted keys file. DastardlyCorp produce modified GPL programs for the BadCorp box, sign the binaries with key "D" and pay BadCorp to add key "d" to the trusted keys file. DastardlyCorp won't release key "D" - "It's our private key. Get BadCorp to add your key to the box if you want to modify stuff. It is their fault, not ours, that you can't run on their box." BadCorp says "Only if you pay us money. We aren't bound by the the GPL - we don't release any GPLed software." (And BadCorp and DastardlyCorp just happen to be owned by the same people.)
Scenario D:
As above, but BadCorp unilaterally add Alan's key "a" to the trusted keys list. Now Alan can recompile for the BadCorp box, but other people can't - but Alan did not want this situation to be.
How can the license force DastardlyCorp to release their key in scenario C, but not force Alan to release in scenario D?
Disclaimer - I am not a lawyer, I have not followed this controversy closely. Better informed comment is invited.
Quattuor res in hoc mundo sanctae sunt: libri, liberi, libertas et liberalitas.
If someone adds a DRM to a product, it becomes illegal in the United States (DMCA) and many other countries to take it out. Because of this, by clause 7 of the GPL version 2, it seems that it's already illegal to implement a law-enforced DRM into existing GPL'd code in many countries, and distribute that program. Without that clause, for example, Microsoft could make a DRM'd Microsoft Linux that is legally protected from modification by anyone besides Microsoft. You wouldn't be sued for violating their license terms, because it'd still be under the GPL. Instead they'd sue your for breaking their DRM. Instead of them violating the GPL, the law would be violating the GPL on their behalf, and clause 7 of the GPL 2 protects against this by revoking their right to redistribute if this happens. The GPL3 just makes this more clear by saying that DRM is incompatible with the GPL.
Is it possible for parts of the Linux kernel to be GPL2 and parts to be GPL3? Its seems to me like GPL2's provisions would prevent coexistance with GPL3 -- GPL2 doesn't allow such ideological restrictions to be added to a derivative of a GPL2 work.
If so then moving the kernel to GPL3 is likely impractical. Too much code has been contributed in the form of modules and patches and while the pedigree is well documented its far from perfect, particularly on the little patches. They can be presumed to have been offered under the general terms of Linux's distribution -- GPL2. Anything else would require an explicit statement from those individual authors.
Under the circumstances, I wonder if Linus could legally release Linux under anything incompatible with the terms of GPL2 even if he wanted to.
Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
It has nothing to do with users' freedoms, but rather with restrictions on competitors. Businesses support Linux because they know that if they add things (drivers, performance enhancements, et cetera) to Linux, their competitors WON'T be able to use it without also making their changes public. There is no incentive for a business to contribute to a BSD-style licenced project, since competitors can then use their code without restriction (except for the "advertisting" clause).
My other first post is car post.
Don't tell me you can't use Linux for DRM software if you can use Linux in a child porn video lab.
This is not a straw man. GNU has in the past rejected all moral embargos on the use of free software. See their condemnation of the Hacktivismo license, which prevents the software being used by authoritarian governments and spyware makers:
Because it restricts what jobs people can use the software for, and restricts in substantive ways what jobs modified versions of the program can do, it is not a free software license.
If we were ever going to make an exception to our principles of free software, here would be the place to do it.
As for restricting the use of the software by governments that violate human rights, this is likely to be ineffective. There are many other programs they can use. Also, at least under US law, a copyright-based source license can't restrict use of the program; such a restriction is not enforcible anyway. Meanwhile, they can simply decide they are exempt from the restrictions.
So why is DRM a greater crime than the rest of these? Is not DRM a "use of the program"? Won't companies that make DRM be unwilling to use open-source modules anyway - or at least not re-release the source?
I really think that here is an example of the GNU's political fight (DRM and software patents are evil) outweighing their moral fight (restrictions on software are evil).
Wrong, it can't be that way. GPL3 _adds_ restrictions (eg. the DRM stuff) over and above GPL2. GPL2 _forbids_ adding restrictions. The two are fundamentally incompatible - all the code has to be under one or the other. [ note that that doesn't preclude some code being under _either_ (eg. "GPLv2 or later"), but it does mean that you can't mix code that is _only_ GPL2 with code that is _only_ GPL3 ].
Thousands of people who have contributed to Linux have done so on the basis that it is released under the Linux licence (which btw is not GPL2, but a derrivative of GPL2). To **legally** change the licence you've have to track down all those contributors and get their permission. Same deal with selling the source or any other act of ownership of the source.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
1. it is my technical (as a paralegal) opinion that, if Linus don't change his mind, the kernel can NEVER be relicensed GPLv3. This is because I consider that the GPL restricts the distributions of derivative works under the terms of the GPL (as per section 0) or under more liberal terms (as per section 6) and the GPLv3, at least as currently drafted, is more restrictive than the GPLv2.
2. as a corollary -- and another justification -- to (1) above, it is my technical opinion that most (at least 80%, but probably more than 90%) of the "official Linus Penguin-pee blessed" kernel source lines are, as a matter of fact, a derivative work on the continuous works of Linus Torvalds, since 1991.
3. just as RMS, I think proprietary software is bad. I think proprietary software is bad because proprietary software -- especially the kind you normally buy in a box -- is basically a scam. What is the scam? When you buy some medicine, you are paying for (P) the cost of production [normally the dominant cost factor, but at least au pair with the other cfs] + (R) the cost of research + (F) the amortization of some future research + ($) some profit to pay for the invested money. In the case of proprietary software, we have P ~~ 0. MS invested ten million dollars on MSWord (insert some version number here) and was rewarded a billion dollars by it in less than (number less than ten) years because they use their "bait and switch" tactics, their "first use for free" tactics, their "hook the kids" tactics, and their "leverage any semi-monopoly we have" tactics. Tell me, what other business uses those exact four tactics? (just like some illicit business, their profit margin is incredible)
4. in this respect, I think Free Software (and copyleft licenses) is not only more fair, but more "right", too. When you have an itch, you pay a programmer to scratch it. No strings attached other than "others must play fair too". People that PRODUCE software continue being paid to produce software, ie, to churn out LOCs. But people that just exploit the general public by sitting on a product (yeah, a nice one by a number of accounts, and this "nice" I'm saying even applies -- or applied some day -- to Windows 95) that they have done once. Imagine a perfect world, where instead of lining up MS's stockholder pockets, all the profits of MS had being used to hire more programmers!! And send them to churn out more -- and better -- code!! Get it?
5. yes, I love numbered lists.
It's better to be the foot on the boot than the face on the pavement. ~~ tkx Kadin2048
Isn't it Linus who should be sucking his thumb and holding a blanket?
"Nope. If Linus is saying that a non-DRM clause is valid for content, then to me, he basically just invalidated his position. Code is art and knowledge, and as such qualifies as content."
No, he's consistent since there is no way to distribute linux binaries without human readable source code under GPLv2. Therefore, he is practicing what he preaches.
Vote for Pedro
Linux is under GPLv2 license. But it's not *owned* by Linus. Linus holds the trademarks, and owns a large portion of the code because he wrote it. But there has never been a requirement for anyone submitting changes to Linux to sign over their rights to said patch. Therefore, each and every submitter would have to approve any change of license. I can tell you now, that will NEVER happen.
For example, on my pet project I use GPL rather than BSD because I want to make sure that every derivative will be free-software, that's what I care about protecting. If I release content and someone has the right to make a DRM-encumbered version of it, this freedom is lost. To protect (the freedom of) that content, I use a license with anti-DRM clause.
The filesystem is the package manager