Slashdot Mirror
Internet Radio Failing to Find Support?
K Fox asks: "WOXY, one of the Internet's larger radio stations, has announced that it will soon implement a monthly subscription fee, to support operations. When the Cincinnati based station went from terrestrial broadcast 97.7 to Internet only, they vowed to keep their streams free to listers. Now, they are saying that increased broadcast taxes, falling advertising revenue, and the overall uncertainty in the market (local or global?) has pushed them to change their business model. Is this a sign of things to come for the other radio stations, that broadcast over the Internet? Will digital music distribution fall solely to giants like XM and iTunes?"
Radio over the internet is great untill the conection goes "a bit funny" and it stops streaming or drops to a lower sample rate.
Also how do you listen to it on the move - I can't listen to it in the car or on my portable device.
Then there's the problem whereby you can't go to your local comet (or other electronics store) and buy a radio for the office that has an ethernet port on the back - and no i'm not going to connect my computer up to the stereo becase evry time someone IM's me or I get an email or windows breaks you get horible alert noises that would drive everyone insane!
Surley these problems are why these broadcasters are having problems.
Reinventing the wheel since 1979
Its simply a glorified PA system. Radio is wireless so unless you're
using wi-fi to listen to the radio station it doesn't have the
flexibility as a normal radio station (can't listen walking down the
street , in the car or anywhere not near a cable or dial up line).
Even with wi-fi , who wants to walk around with a laptop switched on
under their arm?
Internet radio is fine for the home and work markets , but it fails
miserably for the on-the-move market where a large proportion of
people listen to the radio.
OTOH - I can get XM or local broadcast from my desk just fine, or just use my iPod.
It will if the RIAA has any say in the matter. The last thing they want is Internet radio. Consider that they pay broadcast radio to play songs but demand to be paid for the same songs going over the Internet.
We can speculate on why (greed doesn't explain it, since they don't stand to gain any revenue from strangling the baby.) My own guess is that Internet radio is cheap enough to run that independent artists might build listeners and escape from the RIAA plantation.
Lacking <sarcasm> tags,
KCRW is one of the larger NPR affiliates, so they are in a completely different league than a small commercial station. One of the joys of being a non-profit publically funded entity...
This guy's the limit!
I suspect it's the same for most people. That would explain the difficulty of being a 100% internet-only radio station.
...but not in the WOXY/broadcast model. Two types of stations will persevere: (1) stations that stay off the royalties radar. (2) sites like pandora and last.fm that use personalization and social aspects to attract throngs of listeners and maximize ad revenue. WOXY made the mistake of trying to keep a high profile, i think. charging a subscription doesn't stand a chance. there are just too many other choices.
It means that they realized people don't want to listen to advertisment and if you are listening to internet radio, you might as well listen to non-crap non-commercialized radio.
The problem is that radio stations have to fool advertisers that people are listening to them with contests and call in campaigns and sheer speculation. There is no way to prove how many people are listening at any given time. Just a big assumuption. With internet streaming, you have stastics and logs of who is actually listening. As with the problem with click through ads, people discovered that people ignore ads and have been for years.
I've personally never bought or been influenced by an add on a TV or radio. Mostly because 99% of the products don't apply to a geek other than laughing at Geico commercials.
However, I have bought plenty of things because of Adsense and searching on google because it interests me or I was actually looking for comparable products. Brute force advertising is just a waste of money.
"I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
-Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
WOXY has long been an independant station that played what the DJ's and fans liked. They never sold out to corporate rock, and their motto always has been "Corporate Radio SUCKS!" Their selection varies so widely, and they try their bests to honor requests from everyone. Even when they were on the air and internet at the same time, they took email request around the world.
Gonna have to buy a subscription and support this incredible station.
DI can support up to 40 to 60 thousand listeners simultaneously during peak loads (thrus afternoon), and still make a profit.
DISCLAIMER: I worked for them previously
Sunny Dubey
SKY.FM is part of DI.FM. Digitally Imported has a subscription service for there content. You pay for the higher quality streams.
If you have access to a computer with all of your mp3's on iTunes or whatever digital music player, why chew up bandwidth to listen to someone else pick songs you don't really want to listen to?
The only online radio stations I ever listen to, and barely at that, are playlists from David Byrne on his website cast as streaming audio.
Ex nihilo nihil fit.
1. The music is usually bad
2. The music is the same playlist shuffled differently for each new day
3. There are no deejays that will actually play obscure requests
4. Too many annoying commercials / fake deejays
5. Too many stations are owned by the same companies
6. Companies have been doing 'pay to play' illegally - big surprise
7. I buy my own music to hear the artists I enjoy - I am in control
He who knows best knows how little he knows. - Thomas Jefferson
From TFA
And for those of you who just can't afford to pay one more bill each month, we're keeping a low bandwidth stream. It may not be the best quality, but you can still tune in for free.
They are only charging for CD quality streams. It seems they're moving more towards a donation (with perks) scheme rather than a subscription only service. And moving to such a system certainly doesn't mean support isn't out there. I'm a fan of KEXP which has done very well with membership drives while keeping the music free for everyone.
I came here for a good argument
Virgin radio listener here as well. I'm surprised they've kept the high-bitrate streams open for free.. and have continued to support ogg as well.. here's a link for those that are interested.
r eams.html
d ex.html
http://www.virginradio.co.uk/thestation/listen/st
Here's a index list of each of the virgin radio stations that can be heard,
http://www.virginradio.co.uk/thestation/listen/in
Also, critically KCRW's webcast is a simulcast of their over-the-air signal. WOXY.com is now internet-only.
Uh -- no. But internet radio is in its infancy. It will take off with the deployment of wireless broadband and a new class of devices capable of pulling streams without being connected to a computer.
The first show will drop when Apple makes available a wireless version of the iPod. I bet this will happen before Christmas.
After that, it's just a function of wireless rollout. According to Bridge Research, a research company that does most of its work for commercial radio, There will be something on the order of 130 million wireless broadband users in 2010. Wired users will make up another 150 million or so. This should be enough critical mass to make internet radio commercially viable.
Of course, all advertising-supported media is changing. The day of mass-media supremacy is coming to an end, and wirelessly delivered entertainment should further democratize content delivery.
In the meantime, internet broadcasters will have to find clever business models to stay afloat. Applying old-school models to new media won't be effective.
By the way, Bridge projects XM and Sirius to be at a combined market of less than 50 million subscribers in 2010. Sat broadcasting could become quite profitable at that level, but hardly dominant in terms of ears. Look for major satelite entertainment brands to migrate to internet radio as it grows.
This is my post. There are many others like it. If you don't like what you read here, go try one of the others.
is the fact that terrestrial radio is a public "good" (in economic terms) which cannot be impeded upon by other radio station listeners, barring call in listeners who request crap. No matter how many people listen to your favorite station, you can listen to is just as well, with no degradation in service.
/.er.
Alternatively, many internet radio streams that I listen to have a predetermined max # of connections. Fortunately, the stuff I listen to (limbikfrequencies.com) does not present this issue. If you can only stream to X number of users at a time, your advertising base will be a bit limited, and not attractive to advertisers.
The majority reason I listen to streamed audio is that #1 I don't have to hear 10min worth of repetitious adverts between songs. In fact, the only breaks in the music of some stations is the website identification voice in, then it's back to the music. #2 There is what I consider to be, great music on these mainly independent sites. Alot of what I've bought over the last 4 or 5 years has not been American top 40, but primarily electronic ambient from Europe (yeah, call me a fag if you want).
So, no adverts + good music + no crap = me listening to streamed audio out of London all the time. Perhaps it would be a better model to have artists "contribute" to streamed audio stations rather then sell their soul to **AA to get promoted, acts which we all know are for shit. Any music I listen to anymore is NOT advertised. Perhaps a small contribution to the station for the pleasure of listening would be possible. If you have 2000 folks that would pay $1(approx)/month to listen, I would be quite sure this would more the make up for bandwidth costs. I would. Hell, I pay iTunes that much for one song. *Disclaimer: I do not have a television, I spend a great deal of time at the computer. I'll assume roughly the same for the average
From the announcement on woxy.com's home page:
Really it seems their hoping the rest of the world -- advertisers, primarily -- will catch up with what woxy.com is doing.
Basically, woxy.com's business model is: traditional (but independent) commercial radio but over the internet instead of over the air. You would think that advertisers who would be willing to buy commercials on traditional over-the-air radio would be able to easily make the transition to internet-only (especially if they realized that audience measurement online should be much better than the wacky Arbitron and other sampling-based metrics for over-the-air radio). Further, it seems that internet radio's audience has to be growing, while over-the-air's audience overall can't be growing -- sure people listen to over-the-air in their cars, but how many people with desk jobs listen to over-the-air radio at work instead of plugging their headphones into their computer? I just don't get it that adevertisers (inc. the agencies) that have dealt with radio for ages just don't seem to understand that commercial internet radio is basically the same thing.
>Will digital music distribution fall solely to giants like XM and iTunes?
Yes and no. Legal Digital music distribution will become a pay model, no doubt. But if you are going to pay, you might as well pay for what you want, rather than a random stream. This is why I cancelled my XM subscription. I decided I'd rather pay for music that I want to hear.
Steve
A work that expires before its copyright never enters the public domain and thus enjoys eternal copyright protection.
Rusty has it figured out. He fought the fights - and almost bowed out. But plucky SOMA survived and thrived. They are non-commercial, and have my 50 bucks, which is more than I can say for KQED!
SOMAs "bottom line" is not profit - it's loving what they do and listen to. Otherwise, there'd be no beloved "Secret Agent". You won't find that on XM!
"Speaking the Truth in times of universal deceit is a revolutionary act." -- George Orwell
The internet radio station I listen to, Radio Paradise, seems to be doing all right, and it's run entirely on user contributions and affiliate programs (iTunes, Amazon, etc). There are no commercials and it isn't even a non-profit. In fact, they recently topped ten thousand simultaneous listeners for the first time. The only minus is that they occasionally mention being listener-supported and ask for donations. Nowhere near as obnoxious as NPR pledge drives, though....
I know this is just one example, but it shows that it's possible to have an internet radio stations with free streams be a successful business.
I've been running a 50+ plus station for the last 4 years. 4 years ago Shoutcast was up to 5,000-6000 stations. Looking at the directory now Shoutcast stations are now pushing 14,000 stations. More variety, More hobbyists. The corporate air based stations are on the decrease. As more and more restrictions are put on what they're alowed to broadcast on their stream and the uncertainty. Many Canadian stations went off the air just because of the uncertainty on what they were allowed to actually play. Its too much pain for little gain. At 50 connections it costs me about $100 per month. I eat that and I'm fine with its a labour of love...however in the corporate world its all $$$ and bandwidth aint cheap.
The Buzzoutroom - Chilled out ambient downbeats
Can anyone tell me what the costs of operating a station such as WOXY? The subscription fee they are calling for is $9.95/month. Their website states that their goal is 7k people... So, if you calculate that out (rounding up a bit) it comes out to $840k for the year, which is an extraordinarily large amount I would think.
Perhaps someone could explain why an INTERNET station would need so much capital. People are running them for free out there... perhaps the problem with their station is a matter of waste more than anything else. Maybe they should turn to the geeks at slashdot for better methods of internet distribution and cost cutting. Any thoughts?
-- John Searle
I lived in OH, went to Miami University and for any of you that are/were locals, this station represents independent radio. Sure, there are others nationally, but this one is hard to match in its variety, its zest for new artists and the unique way they can pull in bands for sets, interviews, etc. Is any radio/media venue worth $120 a year? Boy, WOXY's two streaming stations v. XM and Sirius at ~$15/month is a tough match up. HBO at ~$10/month is also a tough pricing comparable. With Oprah getting $55mm, why can't they just partner up with a sattelite provider for who they are? Howard Stern sure did. In the end, I've subscribed for one reason - I've learned more from this station about new artists than anywhere else. Who can put a price on knowledge and credibility?
Working to make ideas into reality. www.i4e.com
It would be very easy and very economical to run an internet radio station. It would be fairly simple to build a p2p broadcast client that operated like bittorrent (so as to eliminate the need for a single server to serve bandwidth to everyone). And find people who would want to DJ and play music is easy. There is nothing inherently expensive or technically difficult about that. Because the costs are so cheap, it wouldn't take much to make it a profitable buisness.
The hard part of Internet radio is dealing with all the legal restrictions, licencing, ASCAP payments, and whatever.
Like all government regulation, the regulations and legal restrictions are designed to create fixed costs such that the barrier to entry is so high that there are only a few large competitors in the industry.
Eliminate all the restrictions and regulations, and Internet radio will take off.
I don't know how huge WOXY.com's market is, since all I get is mysql errors (at present) from their site. However, The Ticket once had a subscription internet pay service too, but quickly abandoned it, maybe in part to my email responses and others. I told them in no uncertain terms there were other internet sports feeds I could listen to for free.
When you're WOXY.com (internet only), you have stiff and countless competition to your content across the world even. When you're WOXY.com (both streams), you're content is at least localized to your city with fewer competitors, as a fallback while growing your internet market.
I hope, when they die, cartoon characters have to answer for their sins.
A good example of successful simulcasting is WFMU-FM, a non-commercial non-NPR freeform station in Jersey City, NJ. They play lots of obscure and strange music, and they also have a weekday Jewish music and chat show called "JM in the AM." The station has two morning webcasts - one for JM and another that features the usual odd brew that is WFMU's specialty.
From what I understand, the transition to Internet simulcasting was quite successful and led to improved fundraising (now the world funds the station instead of New York City). The station streams in Real, WMA, AAC, Ogg, and two flavors of MP3 (128 Kbps/32 Kbps). Each 128 Kbps MP3 stream (usually 3 hours long) is stored for three weeks, but the Real version is permanently archived.
I've found the WFMU streams to be very reliable. Now I hear that the station is going to be streaming direct to mobile phones. Well, good luck to them 'cause I'm a big fan.
Deep in the ocean are treasures beyond compare; but if you seek safety, it is on the shore.
Not a popular word around here, but *whispers* podcasting! I used to listen to the radio a lot. I was actually a DJ for a few years. Now I fill that need with podcasts. I have talk in the morning for my commute and music shows during work. It's an opportunity to hear new music. Better still, the music I find is RIAA-free which means I can buy it with a clean conscience (and I do).
My car doesn't have wi-fi, but it does have an Mp3 player that can sync podcasts. Advantage podcasts there too.
The biggest problem with the podcasting concept is that *anyone* can do it. It's hard at first to tell the wheat from the chaff. This is however the necessary price of variety. Commercial radio is of uniform (mediocre) quality. Many podcasts are worse, some (enough, I'd say) are better.
Podcasts might not be a 24/7 stream, but I've found that there's more good content than I have time to listen to. That's close enough for me.
~p
I listen to Radio Paradise daily here and they along with supporting their running costs are working on paying off their old debts this month. So far they have raised almost $30,000 this month.
It seems that with the right combination of music, and website design internet radio does work. They have taken the route of no advertising in their streams, and make all of their money off donations, t-shirt sales and referral revenue.
I don't know your taste in music, but woxy.com plays modern rock -- primarily independent music that isn't overly processed and is generally written and performed by the performers.
Hardly. I've had requests for recent songs dinged by their DJs (very politely) becuase they had just played the within the last three days. Sure, they have their rotations, but heavy rotation on woxy.com is much lighter than at any corporate terrestrial station.
woxy's DJs have a wall of THOUSANDS of CDs from their very beginning -- 1983 or so -- that they can easily access and do on multiple occasions. In addition, they have no problem playing deep cuts on any album if it goes with the flow of the set. Their music ranges runs the alternative gamut from new wave to punk to techno; part of their library is also dedicated to reggae and blues. The latter may not get played nearly as much, but they are available.
The DJs at woxy.com are anything but fake. Their morning DJ, Barb, responds to EVERY email I send her, and she mentions her listners on a regular basis. The other jocks have always responded similarly.
Unfortunately, they don't have enough annoying commercials, which is why they're going to a listner-supported model. The thing is, you can have one or the other: advertising-filled for free or advertising-free for a fee.
woxy is completely independent; they take the risks, they give the people what they want, and there is no corporate angel (or devil) saving their butts/flipping their format when it doesn't bring in enough revenue.
As I understand it, woxy didn't receive that kind of promotional, um, consideration from the record companies because they would play songs before they were supposed to, and playing deeply into the album -- two things that are actually good for the listener, but negatively impacts a song or artist's chart ranking.
Fair enough. But woxy.com has introduced me to a ton of music that I wouldn't have thought to buy in the past all based on hearing new stuff on woxy. Once introduced, I did sample and buy more from those artists, and now i'm in control of those lists.
The fact is that woxy is a breath of fresh air among the staleness of corporate radio. I don't disagree with you that MOST radio stations adhere to those seven reasons why you stopped listening to radio; but woxy is not most stations. It is the antithesis to the kinds of stations that /.ers generally rail against.
Internet Radio is being killed by four factors:
1. Podcasting - I can podcast a show to millions of people and they can listen any time they want with a 10th of the bandwidth and equipment.
2. Preimium/Subscriber Based Content - A lot of broadcastors are setting up commercial free broadcasts and podcasts with all the behind the scenes audio in place of the commercials for a price.
3. Cost - It costs a butt-load of money to set up a streaming server and internet connection that can handle then load of any broadcast. If you use someone else to do the streaming for you, it still costs a lot and you loss control of your broadcast. P2P solutions for live broadcasts just don't work now and I'm not sure they ever will.
4. Laws - Its been 2 minutes since you looked at the the FCC/EFF/MPAA/ABCDEF page. Better refresh it to see what the new rules are. Can someone point me to an update set of rules and regulations for broadcasting is?
Just for the mobility factor you need a way to transmit your message over the radio waves. If someone could come up with a simple way for me to broadcast my message to say a five mile radius from my home to some I would love you.
CB sucks. LPFM is dead (thanks to my church). Shortwave/Ham radio requires to many licenses (see #4).
If someone could make a simple transmitter in one of the unlicened bands for $200, and then make a reciever that will re-transmit the signal into FM so my car or home stero could pick it up for $100 or less, I would be eternally greatful. The exact frequency wouldn't matter because the listener would ID themself by a digital call sign that people would find your station.
You say things that offend me and I can deal with it. Can you?
Amen. I can't remember the last time I listened to conventional radio (for music at least), and KEXP is the reason for that. Good programming by people who love music: What a concept!
(Attention ClearChannel lurkers: This is the Official Secret Formula (tm) of KEXP. Don't try this at home, or in the studios of your lackeys, I mean, stations. Proper, I mean, incorrect usage of this formula may cause several middle managers' heads within your corporate headquarters to explode. Shhhhhh!)
--- The American Way of Life is not a birthright. Hell, it's not even sustainable.
I listen to internet radio for a reason, and I find it very useful. I am an American currently located in England, and without internet radio, I would not be able to listen to some radio stations I preffer listening to for the majority of every year.
r es.htm - under "Audio/visual" heading)
I normally use my HP iPAQ PDA over the wireless network in the British home with a program that supports mp3 pro (*.m3u) or Windows Media Player, depending on which radio station I am listening to.
BBC Radio 4 the vast majority of the time does not provide any good discussion, and Capital FM does not suit my style. I listen to KALW and KOIT, normally. People are amazed when they see what I am doing.
The built-in speakers on the iPAQ are very poor, so I use headphones (purchased at Frys), which offer much better quality.
This is one of the possible, and very useful, uses of internet radio. However, I suspect that this audience that I am in is very small.
It would be great if automobile companies like BMW, seeing as they have got iPod intergration into the vehicles, and Lincoln, would also offer the ability to listen to some internet radio stations, so I can listen to them while driving.
However, intenet radio will no longer be necessary in around five/six years once I return full-time to California to spend the third decade of my life onwards. I will then use a portable radio to listen to the radio while I am moving around the house and be able to listen to it in my car, in HD. The BMW 7 series supports HD FM radio stations, such as KOIT. I do not know whether this is also the case on the internet streaming version. (Link: http://www.bmwusa.com/Vehicles/7/750liSedan/Featu
It is also a big annoyance to have to use the program on the PDA to access the radio station, compared to pressing physical buttons, such as on the steering wheel/knob to to this. Also, the reliability of the wireless connection to the PDA seems to be getting constantly worse, while not to other wireless devices.
--------------
anonymousHuman
Hi all.
My name is Chris J. Popp and I own 9412 - The Rock Station. We've been on air for over 6 years, and I have co-organized two internet radio confrences.
I'd say 95% of the stations out there do not care about making money with their station, they just want to be able to play music and share a dream they have had. Yes, there are stations that raise money or sell commercials and 9412 is one of them. But it costs money to be able to do Internet Radio.
I've seen a few posts about quality of the station in terms of bitrate. With Internet Radio, which is digital, you do not have signal loss or skip. You either get it or you don't. Some stations broadcast at 128k or 320k which can look impressive but elminates a lot of listeners out there and unless you have a trained ear you won't tell a difference.
320, IMHO, is a bit excessive. The stream cost more at about $8 per which is nuts when you look at a 56k stream which is going for approx 90 cents to $1.50. More listeners can be reached with a lower bitrate that still sounds good.
Most stations out there are iPods or jukeboxes that play randomly and have no real feel to it. That is true. 9412 - The Rock Station has 140 hours of live dj's on it's schedule every week. Last I checked, no one else matches that. Oh yeah - we actually interact with listeners by having a dj in a chat room, take requests via IM and email and we check our ego at the door. Lets see your local CC station do that. That's right - you won't because it's corporate "station in a box" radio.
WOXY, Wolf, Y100, DI, Radio Paradise, Club977... these stations are some of the best out there. That's because they have a desire to do well and take it seriously.
Why should Internet Radio be given any special rights? We should not. 9412 pays the Big 3 license bodies - just like FM and AM stations in the US do. I've had stations say "we do not want the competition there" when I have approached organizations such as concert organizers, festivals and similar events.
To me, those stations just put us on the same level playing field as them and see us as equals.
Why have you not heard of many stations yet in the public realm? It comes down to money. Ask ANY internet station owner if they had a choice of spending $$$ on advertising on a bus or getting more streams to accomidate the people (remember them?) they will say more streams so fast it will make your head spin.
I've seen some talk about Internet Radio being able to turn a profit. Here's the thing:
Listeners -> Advertisers -> Money for streams -> Listeners
You have to have a good listenership number to get Advertisers. 50 listeners once a week will not bring in a Fortune 500 company let alone the local book seller.
Get the advertisers, that will bring in the dollars. You need to have a sales person that knows radio and has the contacts with ad buying firms and the advertisers themselves to be able to get them on board. Also, a media kit and rate card will help and DO NOT cheapen yourself. Don't charge $27 for a :30 (which is a rate in a market of say 100,000) but go $9 per :30. Better yet, get sponsors for each hour so you don't have to have commercials. FYI - 9412 only will ever do 4 minutes per hour of commercials. Period. CC and other corporate stations do 12 mins per hour.
Got the money, then you can improve the station. Buy more music so you have a larger play catalog (we've got 15,000 songs) and put the money into giving prizes to the listeners and doing more for them. Get more streams to increase the level of demand you can accomidate.
But, it all starts with the listeners. Without them, the circle is broken and you won't get to do the other stuff. Get the other stuff, then you get more listeners.
Can't hear a Internet station without a computer? BULLS