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Sony Already Lost Media War to Apple?

Posted by ryuzaki0 on from the tech-products-fight dept.

Declan McCullagh writes "Sony's Walkman was the king of media players. Now Apple's iPod is, and Sony Connect was a flop. But Sony's problems may soon be even bigger: the company is having a remarkably difficult time coordinating software development across different divisions and continents, and some managers are worried that things may be getting worse. Will Apple's recent forays into the living room create even more of a problem for Sony?"

39 of 325 comments (clear)

  1. You have got to be kidding me. by Golias · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I love my Apple-centric media room, don't get me wrong, but Apple makes two things: computers and MP3 players.

    Okay, and now a crappy $300 stereo for the den.

    Sony is a player in almost every personal electronics market there is, with the possible exception of "massage wand" marital aids. They can afford to lag behind in one or two market segments for a few years and bounce back.

    --

    Information wants to be anthropomorphized.

    1. Re:You have got to be kidding me. by shotfeel · · Score: 3, Insightful

      True. Anyone remember what happened when Apple tried to get into the game console market? If "Pippin" means nothing to you, don't worry about it.

      Of course that was before the Second Coming of Jobs.

    2. Re:You have got to be kidding me. by NitsujTPU · · Score: 3, Informative

      It's an Apple X-Box without much beef under the hood.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Pippin

      I think that if they used the X-Box as a prototype, that they could do just fine with this. They sell iPods for as much as video game consoles, and all that those are is beefed up mp3 players with their own clothing line.

    3. Re:You have got to be kidding me. by Snap+E+Tom · · Score: 4, Insightful

      What you describe is the electronics market of yesterday. Today, devices of all types are plugging into the PCs. The iPod's a music device... that's also a front end to a software program and an online store. We also have car stereos that download songs from your computer onto its own hard drive via 802.11x. PC-based DVRs are in its early stages.

      This battlefield is suited for Apple, where they have control of software and hardware. Sony, not being an OS or software maker, is at a huge disadvantage. Brilliant of Steve Jobs to lead the computer industry into this arena.

    4. Re:You have got to be kidding me. by Snap+E+Tom · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Most Mac TOSLink cables are getting plugged into Sony receivers to play music from Sony lables and movies from Sony-owned studios. If you buy a Mac instead of a Sony PVR, or an iPod instead of a Sony Walkman, they still make lots of money off you.

      True, but Sony music and Sony movies are not physical devices sitting in your living room, which is what the original article describes. Sony's still going to make money from their studios, but in affect, they've been booted out of the living room.

      The exception to what you describe is the receiver, but that could be just a matter of time...

    5. Re:You have got to be kidding me. by bheer · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Anyone can write an OS. Only a few can turn an OS into something used by more than a small niche -- as Microsoft did with Windows and Linus did with Linux. OSX is still not there, which is why it remains stuck with single digit marketshare, but turning to Unix from MacOS has certainly helped -- lots more apps are easier to port.

      The last thing the market needs is each hardware maker pushing its own OS. A hypothetical Sony PC OS would be a joint fourth after Windows, Linux and OSX. OSX already has a huge mindshare problem (in the real world, not the /. mirror world where $99 Apple Leather iPod cases are drooled over).

      Sony'd have to make a OSX-level slick version of Linux before the world took any notice. And GPL it too so it'd run on non-Sony hardware.

      --
      Go somewhere random
  2. And on the MMORPG Front... by jjleard · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Sony's EQ2 is taking a beating as well. Not to mention the original EQ that they simply let (are letting) die. I think the guy's at Penny Arcade hit the nail on the head with a recent cartoon: (paraphrase) they seem to be generating content by robots completely devoid of a human touch.

  3. I dunno... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Sony is a player in almost every personal electronics market there is, with the possible exception of "massage wand" marital aids. They can afford to lag behind in one or two market segments for a few years and bounce back.

    You can afford to behave as stupidly as Sony has for only so long in today's marketplace. If they don't split up their conglomerate into separate entities that can actually innovate and compete without interfering with each other, the market will do it for them.

    1. Re:I dunno... by Golias · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I think that rather then split up, they need to do the opposite.

      If they get their company to work together better, they become the 800-pound gorilla that they are naturally set up to be.

      --

      Information wants to be anthropomorphized.

    2. Re:I dunno... by Rimbo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'm astonished your post isn't at +5 yet.

      There was a point we were talking about possibly putting our technology onto handheld devices. (We were way too late to be able to hit the DS' launch date, which is a true tragedy.) But the problem with Sony, our Japanese rep explained to us, was the way the company was structured: Even though our contact knew the CEOs of both companies well, that wasn't sufficient with Sony because of the independent nature of the silos.

      It'd be one thing if the independent pieces were each successful, but since Playstation's carrying all of the weight, there's clearly something wrong.

      From what I understand of their culture, they'll go out of business before they'll change.

    3. Re:I dunno... by mikolas · · Score: 2, Informative

      Actually you should see what Samsung Electronics did a few years back. They used to have the same kind of silo organization that Sony has, but the management decided to break the structure in order to add internal co-operation. The results were great and Samsung came out of the Asian financial crisis as one of the most innovative businesses. Wired has a nice story about it.

  4. Sony's experienced here by SheeEttin · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Sony's been making audio equipment for a long time, and it's really good quality. If Apple can compete with Sony's quality and Sony can't get cooordinated enough, they may have competition.

    But what exactly is Apple going to do?
    What would they do for stereo equipment? iPod docks? It's been done.

  5. Two reasons why Sony lost to Apple by pHatidic · · Score: 3, Insightful

    1) "The 'killer app' of tomorrow won't be software or hardware devices,
    but the social practices they make possible." - Howard Rheingold

    The Sony 'iPod killers' are just using new technology to accomplish the same social purpose. The only difference between the Sony products and the Apple ones is that the Sony ones are less sexy. If Sony wants to succeed, they need to make a product that A) serves a new social purpose and B) is more sexy. Let's face it: the iPod is already sexy. But the iPod is sexy as in sexy to look at. That was good enough five years ago, but not today. I want REAL sexy. Not just sexy as in sexy to look at sexy, but sexy as in dripping down your face sexy.

    2) "The real 'iPod killer' won't be an mp3 player."

    The world doesn't need a new mp3 player. The iPod is already good enough. The real iPod killer won't be an mp3 player. It won't even play mp3s. It will do something entirely different. The problem is the people who run these companies like Sony are a little slow and don't get this, so we get these people investing 100 million dollars to create shit products that any five year old knows won't sell when they could be creating the next patent pending paradigm shifting curve jumping technology for 1/20th of that much.

  6. Sony's big problem by replicant108 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Sony's biggest problem is not Apple.

    Sony's biggest problem is the contempt it has shown it's customers.

  7. The difference between Sony and Apple? by mu11ingitover · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'll buy Apple products.
    /two words: root kit.
    /Two more: never forget.

  8. It's the nature of DRM by overshoot · · Score: 4, Insightful
    The whole point is to prevent interoperability.

    Hardly surprising, then, that it has that effect on distributed development. Apple has the advantage of keeping its developers together, which is fine as long as you have a narrow product base.

    --
    Lacking <sarcasm> tags, /. substitutes moderation as "Troll."
  9. Nope, not kidding you. by NDPTAL85 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Did you know that with all the various products that Sony sells that the Playstation division is basically carrying the entire company? And if the PS3 doesn't do well vs the XBox 360 and Nintendo Revolution the company itself may go bankrupt?

    Sony keeps trying to force unattractive standards on the market. From the Memory Stick, to Betamax to Blu-Ray it just never fucknig seems to learn its lesson about using open standards. That pisses people off and its why their consumer electronics division is getting its butt kicked by Apple and Samsung.

    --
    Mac OS X and Windows XP working side by side to fight back the night.
  10. Sony is losing to themselves. by mattkinabrewmindspri · · Score: 4, Insightful
    If they were less blatantly anti-consumer, and if they focused more on providing a product that consumers want, they might be able to compete.

    But as for now, when people think of Sony, they think of a company that produces mediocre products and treats them like criminals. And that's not going to help the company move its merchandise.

    --
    Albuquerque PC
  11. Um...no... by Expert+Determination · · Score: 3, Interesting
    The only difference between the Sony products and the Apple ones is that the Sony ones are less sexy
    Did you ever look at Sony's apology for an mp3^H^H^Hatrac player? The iPod succeeded because it, and iTunes, were awesomely easy to use. People didn't have to stop for a moment to figure out how to use them. They just worked, straight out of the box. (So well that countless applications have now copied many of iTunes GUI elements.)

    Apple didn't succeed because new social practices become possible. This is obvious - mp3 players were available before the iPod came along. (And anyway, half the social practices associated with iPods are mythical - like random strangers jacking into each other's iPods.)

    When are people going to stop making up ever more fanciful notions about why the iPod is so popular and just look at the device and software itself? Unless you're a geek who likes to waste their day messing about with clunky hard to use software and devices it's pretty obvious why the iPod is a superior product to its competition.

    --
    "The White House is not an intelligence-gathering agency," -- Scott McClellan, Whitehouse spokesman.
    1. Re:Um...no... by BewireNomali · · Score: 2, Funny

      Good point. Let's see if I understand you.

      My friend James and I both work in media here in NY. We were invited to a screening for an independent film. James has a Rio something or other (this is about a year ago). Hot blond chick gets in line behind us. She's checking James out. James pulls out his Rio to turn down the volume so he can make his move. She looks at his Rio with distaste.

      HBC: what's that? an ipod?
      James: no, it's a Rio ____; it's just as good, and it has more features.
      HBC: (already checked out) oh. cool.

      HBC discontinues her checking out of James, all because he didn't have the smarts to buy an ipod or conceal the fact that he had another DAP to himself.

      Is this what you mean by new social practices?

      --
      un burrito me trampeó.
    2. Re:Um...no... by 2nd+Post! · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Actually, there is at least one social practice the iPod made possible:

      Carrying all your music with you; a soundtrack to your life.

      Prior to the iPod you had three choices:
      1) Unit based players, like a CD player or a tape cassette with limited music selection
      2) Network based players, like a AM/FM radio with limited music selection
      3) MP3 players, like the Nomad or Rio with crude design and usability

      The iPod, in one package, provide three things the other three existing devices did not have:
      1) Wide music selection (your entire music collection)
      2) Easy music selection (not only your entire collection, but being to easily browse through it)
      3) Portable music selection (smaller than everything out there with a comparable storage density; the Rio was smaller, but only could store 128mb!)

      --

      GPL Deconstructed
    3. Re:Um...no... by Saxophonist · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Actually, there is at least one social practice the iPod made possible:
      Carrying all your music with you; a soundtrack to your life.

      I know of an instance where that idea was taken quite literally. A rather popular professor at the university I attend recently passed away. His kids chose music for the memorial service based on the most-played songs list on his iPod.

      I'm guessing that's one Apple didn't think of when they included that feature.

  12. wtf? by BewireNomali · · Score: 4, Insightful

    i'd say microsoft is more of a threat than apple. let's not forget that sony has an indomitable foothold in the living room already - the PS2. The living room is theirs to lose.

    When I first learned how to code - I had a high school teacher named Mr. Rice - and he always admonished me to keep it simple. He'd write KISS on the board - and then say no offense - to which I'd reply, - none taken. Sony can't seem to keep it simple.

    All of which is to say - all Sony has to do is SHOW UP ON TIME - and the living room is theirs. But no - they keep trying to kill every DAVID out there. If the PS3 were coming out RIGHT NOW - the console wars would be a rout - Sony would win. Even with no killer launch titles - Sony would be a hands down winner because of the installed user base and backwards compatibility. They can always add their online service later - in say the PS3.1 or whatever. Blu-Ray spec issues? Add it in PS3.2. They just need to be in the marketplace with a new product.

    To win in the living room - you must deliver gaming. Because apple does not - they're not yet a living room solution. Microsoft delivers gaming in a very nice package - but they don't know how to design for the living room - meaning they design boxes that age poorly and soon seem and look anachronistic (the xbox one is so damn ugly). But the X-Box gaming experience is superior - and x-box live is a gaming solution without competition. They just can't get games out there fast enough.

    The first one stop gaming/DVR/audio/movie device with already recognizable brand awareness wins the living room hands down.

    --
    un burrito me trampeó.
  13. Apple is becoming too much like Sony by Johnny+Mozzarella · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Although Apple's fan base has made it clear they want a media center device with recording capabilities, they don't want to give them what they want.
    Why? because it will hurt their iTunes video download business? Sound like any major conglomerate you know?

    I believe Apple will overcome this by developing a better movie/video, distribution/download, system/service. The service will hopefully be good enough to silence most of it's critics.
    Apple would need to convince us that subscribing to their service is a better value proposition than doing all the "heavy lifting" of recording our own content.

    As Apple continues to grow and venture into new territories there will be more "conflicts of interest" in the future.

  14. Re:Used to be by Golias · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Why not anymore?

    Sony isn't the best at anything, and is overpriced at everything, but if you don't feel like doing any market research, buy a Sony and you will do okay.

    - The Sony Cybershot is a pretty good camera.
    - The Sony Receivers are feature-rich, support lots of inputs, and sound good.
    - The Sony DVD player is a pretty good unit for $100 which plays most formats.
    - The Sony car stereos work well, are reasonably powerful, and sound nice.
    - The Sony laptops are slick little units which do a pretty good job of staving off "iBook envy" among Windows bigots.
    - The Sony ear buds are actually a small step up from the iPod's offerings for only ten bucks.
    - The Sony phase-cancelling headphones are a much better choice than the Bose ones you see pushed in most stores.
    - The Sony cabinet speakers... are total crap, sure, but they're not really in the high-end speaker market.

    The grandparent post is right. They've got a reputation for being "pretty good" in almost every market where they have a presense, and an easy brand to look for if you're a busy yuppy with no desire to study reviews and compare prices all day.

    --

    Information wants to be anthropomorphized.

  15. Re:Don't forget Microsoft by Golias · · Score: 3, Funny

    *sigh* yet another person on slashdot who needs a joke carefully spelled out for them...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prohibition#Middle_Ea st_and_Central_Asia

    --

    Information wants to be anthropomorphized.

  16. What Sony should have done. by soupdevil · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Five years ago, Sony's music labels should have started releasing all albums as mp3 on Memory Sticks. They should have released a Walkman with a Memory Stick Slot. Sony would have owned the music hardware scene, and limited-edition Memory Sticks with unique content would have established the Memory stick as the standard flash format.

    But now Sony's hardware is languishing, and their Sony label artists are all sporting iPods. As the only label/hardware manufacturer, they had an undeniable advantage, and they blew it. Oh well.
  17. Have you compared Market Cap? by jillako · · Score: 2, Interesting

    SNE - approx $45 Billion AAPL - approx $59 Billion Even with its narrower focus, Apple is already a more successful company. Any new successful consumer product is only going to take more away from Sony.

  18. Not sure about that... Samsung? by SuperKendall · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Sony isn't the best at anything, and is overpriced at everything, but if you don't feel like doing any market research, buy a Sony and you will do okay.

    Honestly I am not sure your statement is as true at a general level for Sony any longer as it is for Samsung in the minds of most consumers, and I have heard less technically ept people express the same sentiments.

    When I am not sure about a purchase today and have no time to look up product details, I am a heck of a lot more likely to go with Samsung because I can be sure of a general level of quality. I would say I have had some Sony duds over the last few years and do not consider the brand quite as reliable as you note.

    Sure my 20 year old Sony CD player is great and still works. But I would not be likley to buy a CD player from them today.

    Go into a Best Buy and look to see which electronics have the least number of boxes left on the lower shelf. Very illuminating...

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  19. Why by cubicledrone · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Why is competition in the marketplace always characterized as a "war?"

    Why are these "wars" always lost before anyone even knows about them?

    --
    Business isn't willing to pay for products, innovation and careers, so we get brands, mortgage commercials and layoffs.
  20. What are you talking about? by ackerholm · · Score: 5, Informative

    "Did you know that with all the various products that Sony sells that the Playstation division is basically carrying the entire company?" ..and you can of course point to a source for this "fact".

    This piece seems to suggest you're lying: http://www.forbes.com/home/feeds/afx/2005/10/27/af x2302512.html

    Operating profit for Sony march-september 2005: 50.98 billion yen
    Operating profit for Sony gaming division: 2.3 billion yen

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you like. - Mark Twain

    1. Re:What are you talking about? by Zantetsuken · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Hell, there's nothing wrong with CRT, they're a helluva lot cheaper than thin-panel lcd screens, leaves me a few bucks extra to get better hardware - do I care if I wont be able to watch BD movies at their fullest definition/resolution potential, I dont get HD tv or movies now, and I dont run my 17" monitor - desktop or games - anything over 1024*768, so as far as my personal preference at least, I dont give a damn if Vista/new monitor crap DRM will prevent me from nice high res movies...


      But then again, thats just my personal preference...

  21. Re:It's not the stereo, it's the Mini and ITMS by TheRaven64 · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Nevermind the fact that the Mini comes with a DVD only - so no Hi-Def disks for you anyway.

    And how long until you can buy HD H.264 videos from iTMS? I think this is the biggest threat to Sony. If Apple can deliver HD content without needing Blu-Ray or HD DVD, then I can see both formats suffering, especially if Apple are first to market and if they offer a rental model (e.g. $1 for a 7-day version, $5 for a version you can archive). Plug in a few hundred GB of FireWire storage to your Mac Mini, and you have a nice unit fir archiving all of this content...

    --
    I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  22. Re:I hope not... by WingedEarth · · Score: 2, Interesting

    You may say Apple computers are overpriced, but I've been a PC user all of life until about a year ago, and can justifiably say that Apples are above and beyond PC's and well worth the extra cash. My Dell Inspiron 1100 running WinXP crashed about five or six times PER DAY. I've owned this iBook for about a year now and it's crashed a total of twice. My supposedly 2.0 GHz Pentium 4 Dell didn't have the power to run Counterstrike without seriously slow processing, but my G4 iBook runs World of Warcraft perfectly smoothly without any problems ever. I haven't owned a single PC that took less than 4 minutes to boot up, but my iBook boots up in 30 seconds. Furthermore, as between Sony and Apple, iTunes is refusing Sony's demand to raise music download prices above $0.99. I'd rather go with the company that cares enough to defend consumers from disgustingly greedy corporate whores. Sony, through most of its history, was great because they innovated so much and added so much great technology to the world, but now they're becoming as tyrannical as a Manhattan landlord.

  23. American solutions to Japanese problems don't work by heroine · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Japanese companies always produced the best consumer electronics. In Japan, everyone had a wide range of responsibilies. The same people worked on software, hardware, design and experience on previous products was applied to new products. If programmers couldn't design useful interfaces, they didn't survive.

    The problem seems to be their attempts to apply American specialization to consumer electronics. Now the programmers are supposed to just program, the EE's just design hardware, interface design is strictly management, and needs are filled by hiring and firing instead of reusing people.

    Consumer electronics aren't the kinds of things you can apply American specialization to. Those who think they can are being eaten up by the LG's and Samsungs. Apple has Slashdot on its side, and that helps a lot.

  24. I would buy by wackymacs · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I would buy a Sony Walkman if they were actually any good. The current models are more expensive than the iPod and have less features, and very ugly designs. Sony need to lower their prices to even be considered as a serious player in the MP3 market. I saw a stupid little Sony Walkman player, the screen was about half the size of the iPod nano screen, and it was only 256MB and it was over $200!

  25. Re:It's not the stereo, it's the Mini and ITMS by gozar · · Score: 2, Interesting
    You're forgetting that in order to get a distribution license Apple will really have to guarantee a 'trusted path, NO hacks' for the movie decoding chain - which still requires HDCP which no current hardware supports. And guess who will have to be comfortable with such an online retail model? well, Sony Pictures Entertainment among few others (go check the holdings list in that link and see how many mainstream movies Apple will have to choose from if SPE won't play ball)

    Apple can start out not worrying about Sony content, because they have an inside track to Disney content, which includes:

    • Walt Disney Pictures
    • Touchstone Pictures
    • Miramax
    • Buena Vista

    I think if Apple decides to start with just Disney content and is successful, other studios will jump on board. Look at Mark Cuban and his theaters/Production Company/HD Net? He would probably be one of the first to jump on board.

    --
    What, me worry?
  26. Re:What a shame by MysteriousPreacher · · Score: 2, Informative

    Alternatively you could end up getting killed doing this since it's probably going to be a live adjustment.

    --
    -- Using the preview button since 2005
  27. Sony's Problems are legion by Blue_Wombat · · Score: 2, Interesting
    They can't make up their minds whether they are a hardware or content business. The Hardware was formerly good (I have had Sony TVs, Stereos, walkmen, VCRs) but my home is now a Sony-free zone. Their products simply don't make the cut. There are a few reasons for this:

    * DRM - Sony products seem to have more restrictive and annoying DRM than any other, and they seem to push it harder and more arrogantly. Cases in point - the Minidisc (bleech) software, and the fact thay every practically DVD player EXECPT Sony is region free.

    * Lack of price competitiveness - bad news Sony, simply sticking a Sony badge on 3rd party products does not get you a 20-30% price premium.

    * Utter contempt for ethics and customers - 1,2,3...say it in unison "Rootkit"

    Far from being a premium label, it is rapidly becoming one to avoid. If you look at its behaviour, and that of the consortia it belongs to, there is probably no company in the world doing more to deprive consumers of their rights.