PS3 - Lateness With Linux?

ZombieRoboNinja writes "The New York Times is reporting that Sony's press conference has confirmed the delay of the PS3, which is now slated to come out in November. More interestingly, the article claims that PS3 will ship with a 60-gig hard drive, built-in network card, and Linux!" Serious stuff here, with Sony's shares falling on the delay confirmation. There was a lot more news handed out at the conference than just the delay. Next Generation has details from Ken Kutaragi's 10 Point Breakdown. From the NYT article: "'We were discussing selling it in September, and some even said put it out in July,' Mr. Kutaragi said. Some analysts were immediately skeptical of this explanation, saying Sony needed to get the console out as soon as possible to combat Microsoft's head start, and the expected release this year of Nintendo's next game console, Revolution. They said Sony may be trying to buy time to bring down the production cost of key components, particularly untested technologies like Blu-ray and Cell. While Mr. Kutaragi did not reveal a price on Wednesday, analysts say Sony will likely try to sell PlayStation 3 for about $500." Please see related links and commentary below for more coverage. My two quick cents -

1. If they're not releasing in Japan until November, I find it highly unlikely they'll be releasing in the states until 2007. Previous PlayStation launches have always been staggered Japan first, U.S. second. I don't care if they say they're launching worldwide; At this point I think they're spinning to keep people happy.
2. If they're not out in the U.S. until 2007, they'll probably be the last next-gen console to do so. So far Nintendo says it's on track to launch this year. Sony isn't getting finalized dev kits out until June. Even just with that metric on the table, Nintendo looks to be in a better position than Sony at the moment.
3. At $500, there are going to be a lot of indifferent customers come March of '07. This will be especially true if, over a year after launch, Microsoft cuts the price of the 360 to coincide with the PS3 launch. If you have to choose between a solid platform that costs $300 (and already has a stable of games available) and a brand-new system that is two hundred bucks more with far fewer games, which one do you think most people will buy?

Regardless of what happens a year from now this is a major blow for Sony, a coup for Microsoft, and breathing room for Nintendo. What do you think the console market will look like this time next year?

Comments

Article Access

[eldavojohn]

A functioning link to the NYTimes article.

Also interesting is the component pricing total that reveals why Sony will most likely have to take a loss of hundreds of dollars per console to remain competitive.

Re:Article Access

[zerocool^]

I wish this crap would die.

Those prices are so out of whack. For starters, blue ray will NOT cost $300/drive. That's insane. Sony owns the license agreements for it, and will be fabbing it themselves. No royalties and no middle man = the blue ray drive will cost next to nothing. Same with the cell processor: It may cost $230 to buy one of them, or even a thousand. What about when you buy 500,000? Or 2,000,000? Or, you agree to fabricate them yourselves, and then you're only paying for the blueprints. The same goes for ram - how much ram is this thing supposed to have? Cause $40 buys you 512MB of ram off the interwebs now. Sony will make their own ram.

Everyone needs to chill out. Please remember that Microsoft and Sony are very different - Microsoft is a software company, and always has been. Sony has ALWAYS been a hardware provider; they own their own fabrication plants, they hire their own engineers - and most of the costs of outsourcing and subcontracting are moot points.

Not to mention, the very article the parent post links to conceeds that the $905 manufacturing cost will probably be down around $300 after 3 years. If that article was Feb of this year, and the console isn't launching until 2007, that's already 1/3 of their time-to-price-reduction elapsed.

Buying one does not equal buying millions.
Price now does not equal price in a year, or even next month.
End user does not equal patent owner, developer, and fabricator.

Sony is not in any trouble.

~Will

Re:Article Access

[zerocool^]

I agree with you under most circumstances. But, perhaps in the case of sony, there's an exception.

1.) Dell has enormous flexability in the market. True. But Sony doesn't *need* flexiblilty for the PS3. There's only 1 PS3, and it's not end-user customizable. What they need is to be able to take one design, and ramp up production quickly and cheaply. You don't have to be horizontially integrated to do that - you need virtical integration. Sony is going to be perhaps buying, perhaps developing in house fab blueprints for the components, and then building the hell out of them.

2.) Sony is HUGE. I mean, dell is big, but it's really hard to overestimate Sony's size - they make dell look like a mom-and-pop. Aside from home amplification, home speakers, car head units, car speakers, dvd players, CD players, Sattelite receivers, CRT Televisions, Plasma TV's, LCD TV's, Computers, Notebooks, LCD monitors, Projectors, Optical drives, flash devices like memory stick, etc; they also own Sony/BMG music, Sony picture studios, SONYTV-ASIA (indian TV network), and probably a LOT of others I don't even know about. That's completely outside of the Gaming biz; of which they own the playstations, a myriad of in-house games like the ever popular Jak and Dexter, and loyalties from all the other games developed.

I find it hard to believe that sony would choose not to manufacture everything they possibly could for the PS3. They already have the virtical integration; their worldwide business is big enough to transition the existing operations into new fabs; and they have the capital to make a long-term smart move, like setting up a fab plant for RD Ram. Fab plants are INCREDIBLY expensive - the cost of the first chip is probably $100,000,000. But, with each successive chip, the cost goes ever downward.

~Will

Re:Article Access

[adisakp]

I agree with you there. Even if the price is high to begin with, Sony has a win/win with PS3 mass production driving down the overall cost of BluRay in a much shorter time.

But then again this is Slashdot so who cares about facts. I'm an actual PS3 and XBOX360 developer and I made a comment on the last PS3 article to refute someone who didn't know what they were talking about (using only publically available knowledge but stuff I still know to be true as a registered developer who has both systems on his desk RIGHT NOW). The clueless parent was modded "Insightful" and I was modded "Troll" for refuting him.

Re:Article Access

[mozumder]

Just because a company manufactures something itself, doesn't mean it's free. The prices aren't actually out of line, and a blu-ray drive can indeed cost $300 and the GPU can cost $150 and CPU another $150 and so on. These include the actual raw costs of the materials themselves. A blue laser diode isn't cheap to make, nor is a GPU. They all have costs, such as wafers, materials, capital cost depreciation (one silicon stepper can cost $15 million) and so on.

Again, these ARE the actual costs for the parts themselves. To give you an example, a wafer might cost $10000 - it is a single piece of silicon crystal developed from molten silicon. Lets say you print about 400 chips on it. That means it costs you $25 just for the wafer alone. Meanwhile, only half the parts work, because a defects (dust, crystalline defects, and so on). Suddenly, that number goes to $50/part, just for the wafer cost alone. Add up everything else (chemicals, power, labor, etc) and it does mean your chips are going to cost $150.

Will there be an emotion chip too?

[hal2814]

Sounds to me like Sony shot themselves in the foot by muffing a Christmas release of the PS3 so they're gearing up the speculation by promising the kitchen sink like they did with the PS2 to try and keep anybody from buying something else in the meantime.

Re:Will there be an emotion chip too?

[gEvil (beta)]

I hear that it'll be able to render graphics like those used in Toy Story in realtime!

Re:Will there be an emotion chip too?

[Overly Critical Guy]

I'm pissed at them for a weird reason, too. I don't want Microsoft and its crappy console to gain any foothold. The only reason the XBox exists is to push the Windows platform into the living room--originally Microsoft offered their platform libraries to Sony and Nintendo and only made the X-Box when both companies refused to ship Windows on their consoles. Microsoft cares nothing at all about games or quality of games, which is why we get commercials espousing the wonders of sweat on a basketball player mesh. They only care about extending Windows and tying people to it in some way.

So with the Playstation 3 delayed--arguably the only sure bet to crushing and stomping out the XBox for good--this gives more time for the XBox 360 to actually gain a foothold, even despite their pathetically slow start (Nintendo sold more Gamecubes last Christmas than Microsoft sold XBox 360s).

I expected the Playstation 3 to dominate once more, with Nintendo coming on the side as the cheaper "add-on" gaming console that everyone buys to play Zelda and Mario Kart on the side.

Re:Will there be an emotion chip too?

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean render South Park in real time, right?

Re:Will there be an emotion chip too?

[minus_273]

no no it will be "matrix stuff" today!

Re:Will there be an emotion chip too?

[raquor]

With supply shortages of course they arent selling as many 360s as PS2s. I've yet to see an actual 360 for sale anywhere as I wander through the video game sections of my local retailers. Lots of accessories and games, but not once have I spotted a console. Whereas PS2 has been around for a while and there is a steady stream of consoles getting to retail. Think before you speak.

Re:Will there be an emotion chip too?

[ThinkFr33ly]

I don't want Microsoft and its crappy console to gain any foothold. Have you used the "crappy console"? It's actually a helluva lot of fun. The launch titles were only so-so. No bad ones, but no truly great ones. That aside, Xbox Live makes up for it all. It's an incredible experience and it alone makes buying an X360 worth it. The only reason the XBox exists is to push the Windows platform into the living room--originally Microsoft offered their platform libraries to Sony and Nintendo and only made the X-Box when both companies refused to ship Windows on their consoles. This is completely false. Microsoft created the trimmed down version of Win2k for the Xbox exclusively. They never made any such offer to Nintendo or Sony. They intended to enter the market and compete with these companies from the get-go. In addition, saying that the Xbox runs Windows is misleading. The Xbox runs a very, very customized version of the Windows 2000 kernel, but that's about where things end. There is certainly a strategy to make the Xbox/X360 work well with PCs running Windows (media center in particular), but that's just one part of the overall strategy to win the gaming market. Microsoft cares nothing at all about games or quality of games, which is why we get commercials espousing the wonders of sweat on a basketball player mesh. Microsoft case about the quality of its games the same way Nintendo and Sony do - only insofar as that quality makes them money. You honestly think that Sony is some pure of heart company that loves its gamers? Get a grip. his gives more time for the XBox 360 to actually gain a foothold, even despite their pathetically slow start (Nintendo sold more Gamecubes last Christmas than Microsoft sold XBox 360s). Are we in the No-Spin-Zone all of a sudden? Microsoft's "slow start" was completely due to the LACK OF AVAILABE CONSOLES TO BUY. EVERYBODY wanted one, but they were all sold out. Everywhere. Why do you think they were going for 5x face value on eBay? Meanwhile, Gamecubes are a dime a dozen. Microsoft will undoubtedly solidfy a strong lead over the next few months thanks to finally being able to go into almost any store and buy an Xbox 360.

Re:Will there be an emotion chip too?

[RexRhino]

I don't know why you would take either side in the Xbox 360 vs. Playstation 3 debate. Even if you don't like Microsoft's buisness practices, Sony has dome some extremly unethical things to customers (Music CDs that install rootkits on your computer, anyone?). And from a Geek perspective, Sony is super annoying (Microsoft actually publishes system specs on it's hardware... where as Sony gives vauge statements about "emotion engines").

The fact is, having more than one game machine and one company dominating the whole industry is a good thing. Having Playstation the MAIN console with everyone else distant competitors (like it has been so long) is a bad thing, having several powerful competitors is a good thing. Don't worry, Sony isn't out of the video game industry yet despite their screw ups, there are too many die hard Sony fanboys for the Playstation 3 to flop. But the good news is that the market will probably be split evenly between the large companies, instead of the Sony quasi-monopoly on consoles.

So, from a consumer perspective, what is there to worry about? If you have extra money to burn, or are impatient, or you could care less which one will be the "winner", buy a Xbox 360 now... or simply wait a few months until the Sony machine comes out, and decide then what is the best console. Why have loyalty to any company (they certainly aren't loyal to us)?

Re:Will there be an emotion chip too?

[ensignyu]

There's a saying for this:

Microsoft doesn't have to compete. It just waits for its competitors to shoot themselves in the foot and Microsoft wins by default.

Re:Will there be an emotion chip too?

[jackbird]

That was talking about how the movie would have taken months to render if they hadn't redesigned their rendering pipeline. Also, it's horseshit, since the complicated shots (e.g. Hell) were done by established VFX houses. And even more horseshit since they could have bought more render nodes or used an outside service as well. In other places, Trey and Matt have compared rendering South Park with Maya to using a bulldozer to build a sandcastle. They turn out the shots for an episode in days, which is why they're able to have extremely topical stuff in new episodes (e.g. Saddam in his spider hole airing just 3 days after he was captured).

Not that animation in general isn't hard or time-consuming, or that the animators who work on South Park aren't talented, but South Park is fast and cheap to produce.

Re:Will there be an emotion chip too?

[Manmademan]

The only reason the XBox exists is to push the Windows platform into the living room--originally Microsoft offered their platform libraries to Sony and Nintendo and only made the X-Box when both companies refused to ship Windows on their consoles. This is completely false. Microsoft created the trimmed down version of Win2k for the Xbox exclusively. They never made any such offer to Nintendo or Sony.

Minor nitpick- Microsoft DID offer windows to Sega for use on the Dreamcast. Early models of the DC even have a "windows CE" logo on the casing. However from what I understand it was pretty clunky, few developers used it and windows CE was dropped towards the end of the console's lifecycle.

Re:Will there be an emotion chip too?

[Manmademan]

I don't know why you would take either side in the Xbox 360 vs. Playstation 3 debate. Even if you don't like Microsoft's buisness practices, Sony has dome some extremly unethical things to customers (Music CDs that install rootkits on your computer, anyone?). And from a Geek perspective, Sony is super annoying (Microsoft actually publishes system specs on it's hardware... where as Sony gives vauge statements about "emotion engines").

The "emotion engine" was just the name of the chip, much like "cell processor." Sony has never been shy about publishing specs- in fact you could accuse them of being a little TOO open about system specs as they tend to publish rather generous (over?)estimates of hardware performance. The performance specs of the Ps3 have been known for months as a quick trip to wikipedia will tell you.

Interestingly enough, the only company who's shown an outright reluctance to publish ANY specs on their new hardware is nintendo.

Re:Will there be an emotion chip too?

[RyoShin]

Nintendo sold more Gamecubes last Christmas than Microsoft sold XBox 360s

When teaching things like economics as it applies to electronics, this should be a subject of focus.

Yes, the Gamecube sold more than the XBox360. But why?

We all know that the XBox 360 was a popular item. No one could keep it in stock. Microsoft somewhat shot themselves in the foot with lower production and guarenteed that this would happen.

But what if they had been able to meet demand? The only measure of demand we can measure is sales, and, as said, the "sold out" tag is misleading, as quantities are low, and certainly didn't meet expected social demand. If the 360 had the production numbers, would it have outsold the Gamecube?

Or would the Gamecube's price and library of games have outsold the 360, anyway? There are a couple different bundles you can pick up from any number of places; official bundles include the system, hook ups, controller, and one of the better games (Metroid Prime, Super Smash Bros, etc.) all for between $130 and $150. To even get just a 360 system, you have to shell out $300. If you want all the good stuff and a game, you have to lay down $450.

Or did production approx. meet demand, and the rest was just overhype?

Re:Will there be an emotion chip too?

[aichpvee]

Have you seen how huge the PS2 library is? I finally picked up a PS2 last spring and since then I've been amazed at just how large it is, especially by how many good games there are. Sony definitely doesn't have the AAA percentage that Nintendo has, but their A+ games dwarf the numbers of playable games on GameCube and xbox combined.

If you look at the exclusive games for each console there isn't even a competition. Sony's got stuff. Nintendo's got stuff. And microsoft has what, halo and Ninja Gaiden? And halo isn't even very good.

I don't know where all these microsoft fanbois are coming from (not considering parent as one, mind) but microsoft gaining any dominance in the console business will be bad for everyone. I think you've got to go with Sony in any Sony vs microsoft battle. They pretty much suck as a first party developer, but kick ass at bringing top quality third parties on board. They don't have the personal computer monopoly that will further enslave us if they take over the living room. As long as they don't put in the outrageous drm that has been rumoured, and if Nintendo can't take the top spot, I don't see how any reasonable person can be against Sony in this. microsoft can't be allowed to be the dominant player in console games, and that's just because of the huge amount of crap they will dump on us as players.

Feel free to mod me into oblivion. But go check out the 9.99$ and under bin at your local gamestoop first. There's more quality games there than you'll find on xbox and GameCube combined, which has consistently managed to shock me.

Re:Will there be an emotion chip too?

[gkhan1]

Dude, it's called a

tag. Use it wisely. Also, Preview button is a good thing to consider sometimes.

What a coincidence...

[Spy der Mann]

Sony seems to use Linux for the PS3 - and at the same time, Linus says he won't use GPL3 for Linux due to the DRM clauses.

Interesting coincidence, don't you think?

Global Launch

[Sans Virtue]

His two cents are odd considering that everything I've seen indicates a worldwide launch in November: http://ps3.ign.com/articles/696/696054p1.html

Re:Global Launch

[confu2000]

Mmm. Global launch. Don't forget that 600K units in Japan, 399K units in US and 1000 units in London would still constitute a worldwide launch.

yay! another ps3 article!

[sstation]

and here i thought we were actually gonna make it to lunch time (eastern time) without seeing something about the ps3

Well well well...

[patrickclay]

Sony, your desperate attempt to win back the Slashdot crowd is admirable, but I'm afraid it's too late...

Sincerely,

Slashdot

Re:Well well well...

[Ayaress]

Not just too late, but probably counterproductive. With the level of DRM Sony has hinted at in the past for the PS3, I think a lot of Slashdotters will consider the fact that Linux is facilitating it to be more of an insult than anything.

Re:Well well well...

[Lave]

They've done exactly the same as they did for the launch of the PS2 against the dreamcast. Lied about it's abilities: Check. Produced "real time footage" (Final fantasy cut scenes for the PS2 and we all know the PS3 debacle): Check. Lied about the release date: Check. I truly believe they knew all along it wasn't going to be released in "spring."

I remember confidently telling my girlfriend she was a fool for getting a dreamcast as the PS2 "will be so much better" and "they're releasing it real soon." The blood of the Dreamcast is on my stupid hands.

Fool me once Sony shame on you, fool me twice ....

They've been doing anything to put you off thinking about a dreamcast/xbox360. And with the root kit fiasco they are pretty muuch dead to me. They need to stop treating me like a moron and a pirate if they want my money.

Re:Well well well...

[thatguywhoiam]

Dear Slashdot,

And you are....?

- Sony

Need a Linux for PSP

[DrXym]

Seriously. Sell the thing on UMD with a downloadable cross-platform set of compilers and let the homebrew people have at it. Then everyone's happy - the user for having a bunch of cool new things to run, the homebrew scene for having official endorsements, and the games makers since running homebrew over Linux and through different APIs effectively kills any notions of piracy.

Simultaneous Worldwide Launch

[jon.wolf]

According to the coverage on joystiq, It will be a worldwide release in November of this year. "The PS3 will launch 'in early November 2006 in Japan, North America and Europe simultaneously.'"

Until further details emerge, claims of a US '07 release appear to be unsubstantiated.

Re:Simultaneous Worldwide Launch

[SetupWeasel]

I think it was a comment on the fact that similar promises in the past (read: PSP) have not been realized (read: Japan 12/04, USA 3/05, Europe 9/05).

As with anything Sony, I will believe it when it sits on the shelf.

FUBAR summary....again

[Mille Mots]

From the summary:

...More interestingly, the article claims that PS3 will ship with a 60-gig hard drive, built-in network card, and Linux!" Serious stuff here, with Sony's shares falling on the delay confirmation...

From TFTA (link to Ken Kutaragi's 10 Point Breakdown):

7. Kutaragi said that that the PS3 will require a hard drive, which will have a 60 GB capacity and support Linux OS. No word on if it will be included.

Oops.

--
Sig arrêt

Re:FUBAR summary....again

[drinkypoo]

Kutaragi said that that the PS3 will require a hard drive, which will have a 60 GB capacity and support Linux OS. No word on if it will be included.

Oops.

If you don't need a special 'Linux Kit' to run Linux on the thing, it hardly matters whether or not it's included. THAT is the question which must be answered.

Good news

[caluml]

If it's true, it can only be good news. The more big companies that use Linux for their products, the more defen[c|s]e there will be for any legal challenges that affect it - hurrah!

Like I've always said

[tomstdenis]

I'd be willing to pay more for a gaming console if I had control to produce my own content [e.g. programs, games, whatever].

I'd pay 800$ for a PS3 if it meant I could ssh to the thing and play with the cell processor or beam media to it or something.

If all I can do is play games then I wouldn't pay more than 200$ for it. Cuz at that point I'd just play my xbox1 out of spite.

Tom

Re:Like I've always said

[Shihar]

I think the consol you are looking for is known as a "computer". Yes, I believe "computer" is the correct answer.

will they do the smart thing?

[LWATCDR]

Will it also be a PVR?
Will it have a memory stick slot so you can take your show straight from the PS3/PVR and put the on the PSP?
Any chance that the PS3 will play UMD movies so you don't have to buy two versions?
Just some ideas that could really help Sony do better. Of course what they really need to do is drop this DRM crap like a hot potato.

Re:will they do the smart thing?

[drinkypoo]

Will it also be a PVR? Will it have a memory stick slot so you can take your show straight from the PS3/PVR and put the on the PSP? Any chance that the PS3 will play UMD movies so you don't have to buy two versions? Just some ideas that could really help Sony do better. Of course what they really need to do is drop this DRM crap like a hot potato.

They will probably try the PVR thing again, but for less money. The unit almost assuredly is not coming with video capture hardware.

There is little to no chance that the PS3 will play UMD movies, which are on UMD, which you can't put in a CD/DVD/Blu-Ray/HD-DVD player, which all use a classical CD form factor.

The secret reason for the delay

[Anonymous Coward]

I have it on good authority that Sony is having trouble porting their x86-based rootkit to the cell architecture. No software will be released until they get a multi-threaded roootkit with decent performance.

Where do you think you're posting?

[PetiePooo]

If you have to choose between a solid platform that costs $300 (and already has a stable of games available) and a brand-new system that is two hundred bucks more with far fewer games, which one do you think most people will buy?

The one with Linux on it, obviously!

In all seriousness, that was a big factor in my personal decision to buy the - WRT54G wireless router
- NSLU2 storage server
- TiVo
- XBox (original)

Interesting non-PS3 point in the article...

[Futaba-chan]

They're adding a PSOne emulator to the PSP! That should help fix the lack of compelling titles problem, as Metal Gear Solid and the entire Final Fantasy series up to FF IX (except III) will now be portable, plus Xenogears, Chrono Trigger, and lots more. Hooray for portable Aeris and Snake!

Re:Interesting non-PS3 point in the article...

[Rob T Firefly]

But will our old PS1 games be freely portable to use on this emulator, or will we have to buy them again in order to get them onto a memory stick via the indicated "e-distribution?"

Re:Interesting non-PS3 point in the article...

[Fred Or Alive]

The article mentions a download service, so I assume you just buy the games again and download them to your memory stick, rather than you ripping it yourself. Although I'd imagine if it's really an emulator, it'll be cracked in a matter of weeks...

Re:Interesting non-PS3 point in the article...

[Manmademan]

Disadvantage: you need a memory stick with 1.2 GB of free space to fit all of Metal Gear Solid or Final Fantasy VII....

Not necessarily. Multi disk games Like FFVII, FFVIII, Metal Gear, etc contained a lot of redundant data so you could do things like revisit earlier areas while on the last disc. compressing the game to a single format would eliminate the need for a lot of that redundant data.

Re:$500?

[Valdrax]

Because it won't play PS3 games, duh.

Seriously, though, there are a good number of games for which the console controller are superior to a mouse and keyboard. No one released PC games that depend on a standardized controller because there isn't one that comes with them.

You won't see a Soulcaliber or a Dead or Alive for the PC. You won't see a console-style RPG for the PC which instead favors RPGs like Elder Scrolls and the Ultima series. PC racing games have always sucked, and so have the sports games.

If you like those genres, get a console. If you like exploration-based RPGs, RTS games, FPS games, etc. then get a PC because those games are better on a PC.

Microsoft's Xbox 'Toy Story' Claim

[GameEngineer]

http://news.com.com/2100-1040-250632.html

"One of the basic premises of the Xbox is to put the power in the hands of the artist," Blackley said, which is why Xbox developers "are achieving a level of visual detail you really get in 'Toy Story.'"

I can't believe there are still people trying to attribute Microsoft's stupid Toy Story graphics claim about the Xbox to Sony in 2006...

Blaze of Glory

[blueZhift]

I actually love how Kutaragi-san is putting it all on the line. Global launch, standard hard drive, free online service... Oooh Weee! Sony is either going to astound the analysts with one of the most successful product launches ever, or go out in a blaze of glory that may cripple the company. Either way, you gotta love the balls to the wall attitude. This is going to be really interesting to watch.

Delay cause...

[DarthChris]

Were they trying to make a Linux rootkit?

Re:Launch Date

[Dan Ost]

According to Froogle, $100 for a 2.5inch 60G hard drive would be a steal. Average price seems to range from $130 to $170.

the ADAM computer

[mrpeebles]

More and more, the PS3 is reminding me of the ADAM computer. For those who don't remember, it was the successor to the colecovision video game system, and it was going to be both a video game system, AND an affordable home computer system. Unfortunately, it tried to do too many things, didn't do enough of them well enough for the money, and flopped. (Also, the controllers attached to the SIDE of the main box, so that when you pulled them out, little kid that you were, you broke the machine.) Anyway, these similarities may only be superficial, but a much better comparison may be the LISA computer by apple. We will see...

Re:Bah Sony. Bah...

[HTH NE1]

Shipping with Linux does not balanace out unlawful virus DRM root kits.

Think about it though: shipping with Linux might just create a vector for undermining the DRM on the Blu-Ray HD movies playable on this console.

Face it: consumer electronics running Linux is a big neon "hack me" sign that you don't get with other proprietary consumer electronics operating systems.

Curious

[RyoShin]

If Linux support is going to be native (instead of requiring a bunch of hacking and modding), does this mean they are open to indie game development?

With their PSOnline service (or whatever they're calling it,) they could give low-brow development kits (or sell them for a small fee,) and all people to upload games to a server. Having a lot of free, smaller games would really add to the service.

It's never been about Slashdot, grasshopper

[Moraelin]

Sony doesn't actually give a flying fsck about Slashdot or Linux as such.

Sony needs Linux on their console for the same reason they've needed it on the PS2: to dodge import taxes. I don't know what the situation is in the USA, but in the EU if it's a general purpose computer, it doesn't get taxed the way toys do. And EU is a games and consoles market of the same order of magnitude as the USA (if marginally smaller), and twice as big as Japan. So being able to say "see, you can boot this CD on it and have a general purpose OS that makes it a general purpose computer" is gonna make Sony a _lot_ of money in dodged import taxes.

Even better, what this means is that it can be more competitive with Microsoft and Nintendo who chose not to dodge those taxes. Sony needs to take much less of a loss to give those a nasty price competition.

And as the final exhibit: notice how Sony never actually bothered marketting or even selling (more than theoretically) that Linux they've flaunted all along for the PS2. They _didn't_ really want you to play Tux Racer on their subsidized machine.

Think about it this way: they sell the consoles at a loss and make the money from games. Each console bought just to run Linux and troll Slashdot in Mozilla is for Sony just a loss. Each console that you run gnometris (Gnome's tetris clone) or kshisen on in Linux, instead of buying a game from Sony, is just a loss. It's not something they want you to do, but a nasty risk they're willing to take, in the hope that they'll lose less with that than they gain by dodging customs.

So basically, don't let that ego blind you. We nerds like to pretend that the world revolves around us, and Sony would bend over backwards to please Slashdot. In practice, Sony couldn't care less about Slashdot. It's just a business decision, in which Slashdot played _no_ role whatsoever.

Re:It's never been about Slashdot, grasshopper

[Moraelin]

I'm not a lawyer or an accountant, so I only know the bits that were in the news. And according to the news, Linux was _the_ defense Sony used to get the PS2 classified as a "computer", which in turn was the defense they used so they don't need to pay customs. So I'd assume they considered that necessary in some way.

Actually -- again, bearing in mind that I'm no lawyer or accountant -- the thing here is that for that kind of taxes, e.g., VAT, it's not that toys or video game machines alone get some extra-high tax. There is no "video game machine tax" as such. It's that goods are divided into broad groups which get different taxes, with the stuff considered essential getting a tax break. E.g., you pay less VAT for food, an essential thing, than you pay for selling a TV, which is considered less essential.

Apparently at some point computers were deemed important enough to get some form of tax or customs break. Other things, such as video recorders or whatnot don't get it.

So it wasn't exactly Sony dodging some extra "video game machine tax", but rather having to fit one of the definitions that get a break. Since they can't define their machine as "food", for example, (or not without getting laughed at), they went for defining it as a "computer".

Re:It's never been about Slashdot, grasshopper

[EoinOL]

Sony needs Linux on their console for the same reason they've needed it on the PS2: to dodge import taxes. I don't know what the situation is in the USA, but in the EU if it's a general purpose computer, it doesn't get taxed the way toys do.

That was true last generation.

However, this tax on games consoles as opposed to computers no longer exists.

Re:Sony really dropped the ball here

[rehtonAesoohC]

I don't know about Nintendo dropping off the radar... The fact that the Revolution will have a game catalog that includes every Nintendo release from every Nintendo console ever made will attract those grown-up, non-Japanese game players.

The fact that you haven't considered buying a Nintendo product in 10 years is exactly why they decided to make this available I would think.

Re:Sony really dropped the ball here

[Whyte Panther]

With Sega releasing the Dreamcast as early as they did (relatively), Sony is really fighting an uphill battle here. Whether or not the PS2 is better than the DC, the "next-gen" war is already heavily favored to those who actually make their products available.

Sure there are some Sony fanboys who would refuse to buy Sega products I'm sure, but then factor in the Nintendo Gamecube release later this year and well... I just don't see how they can really expect to win major market share with this platform.

Not a fanboy, but look how that worked out last time.

Horray for Nintendo

[MBCook]

Wow. I wasn't expecting the world-wide launch. Here is hoping they can pull it off. The Linux thing is interesting. The only other question I have is... if I download a game to play on my PSP (I'll be buying Parappa and UmJamma Lammy), can I play it on my PS3 too?

But the thing that this says to me is... Sony screwed up big time. Now I don't see why they didn't just do update the Blu-Ray driver later (like they did with the DVD driver in the PS2). Instead they delayed the launch.

Now Nintendo has a major leg up. I have been waiting for the Revolution and I think that it will do much better than the 'Cube did this generation. But now they will both launch around Christmas. Let's ignore the fan-boys and look at the people who want a new video game console. So little Billy wants a console. Do you...

1. Buy him a XBox 360 ($300 for the full system plus games, based on hypothetical price cut)
2. Buy him a PS3 ($425 based on "minimum" price, plus games)
3. Buy him a Revolution ($200 plus games)

So if we assume $60 games, that is $360 for a XBox with one game, $485 for a PS3 with one game, or $260 for a Rev with one game (assuming no pack-in). So for the price of a XBox, you can get a Revolution with about 3 games. For the price of the PS3, you can get the Revolution plus 5 games.

That will be a MAJOR plus to Nintendo, not counting all the other pluses (controller, backed library, etc). Look how Nintendo is doing in Japan with the DS. Nintendogs was HUGE here in the states, I know lots of little girls who got a DS just for that game. If Brain Training becomes big here too, wow. If they can do the same sort of thing with the Revolution, they could break out of their "slump" big time.

I can't wait for E3/GDC when we'll see more of all three systems.

Landscape same as ever

[caffeination]

It'll be no different from today: Microsoft and Sony will still be taking up 90% of the press attention with their wafer-thin attention grabbing B.S., with Nintendo continuing to take in profit by the truckload in the background. Graphics will continue to win ground against gameplay, and I will continue to buy less and less games. More companies will be bought by bigger companies as the price of producing a game is forced up by increasingly laughable production values.

We'll know more after GDC

[Animats]

The Game Developer's Conference is next week. On Wednesday, March 22, at 10:30 AM, Phil Harrison of SCEA will tell developers what's going to happen.

This is the point where Sony has to make it clear to developers exactly what's coming out and when, or there will be very few games ready at launch.

So wait a week.

Re:Where's the GPL source code to the Linux kernel

[fistfullast33l]

If the drivers are all modules, I don't believe the source code has to be released. Obviously, Nvidia and ATI have never released the code to their modules. Another example off the top of my head is Broadcom and the b44 ethernet card module (that's the open source one, but they have a module that is closed source whose name I can't remember). Another tactic they might follow is Intel's, who releases the wireless drivers for their IPW series as open source, but keeps the firmware for the cards closed. This allows them to look good and at the same time protect their IP. I doubt you'll see much source code from Sony in light of the PSP debacle. Personally, I don't care what they do as long as I can run linux. The PS2 dev kits all ran linux on them. My friend set up Afterstep on his in an effort to pretend he was John Carmack running a NeXT box. I'll settle for E17, since by the time the PS3 is released, E17 will probably be stable and able to run Duke Nukem Forever with OpenGL acceleration.

And don't flame me for E17, I'm running it on my laptop.

Re:Should Be Clear Why Developers Choose Sony :)

[InsaneGeek]

Do you have any idea how expensive it is to "stockpile" components? If Sony was doing what you are saying, it would cost them millions (with the S). Heck if Sony were to simply put that cash they would spend to "stockpile" components this early, into a very low interest personal saving bank account they could probably make a couple of million on that by itself. The cost of stockpiling components early would cost Sony dearly to do, there's a reason that the average lifespan that Dell "owns" a component is measured in minutes rather than hours or days.

Everybody is saying that Sony can't buy components today for $500, and has to sell it at a loss. So using the number that people say of $800 for today's component cost and using your 500k units number for June that means; Sony would dump out 400 million dollars to sit on equipment for 5 months. I can get 6 month CD's between 4-5% APY, just sticking that cash into a CD for half a year would yield them ~8 million dollars (won't go into calculating APY on intervals, because you get the picture). That much cash for basically doing nothing, by simply not purchasing anything for a month they get more than a million dollars in benefit, you can even double the effect as by spending the money early not only did you not gain a million from the bank, you have a million dollars less than before in equipment that aren't using.

Linux.... yeah, I'm sure they are going to come out with a linux media server that works with the DRM... OK you just go along with that. Linux is going to be a niche option that won't allow you to use the benefit of high-def digital output, blu-ray, or gaming. It's going to be niche and stay niche.

MS vs Sony? More likely, Sony vs Nintendo

[Opportunist]

Does anyone know how the XB360 sold in Japan? According to what I hear, Japanese customers are quite loyal to their local manufacturers, so I would consider it likely that (unless that changed with the X360) Sony tries to pick up the battle with Nintendo instead. The one against MS is pretty much over by the time they could push the console on the market.

By then, the X360 will be "old" already. It's more likely that they will try to match with the Nintendo Revolution instead of trying to fight the X360. Simply because those 2 consoles will be the ones to share the XMas market for this year.

For the X360, you either already have it, you're going to buy it within 6 months or you don't care about it. Who's gonna get a 360 for XMas? Hardly anyone. It's "old" by then.

On the other hand, both the PS3 and the Rev are going to hit the market roughly around XMas this year. And usually people only buy ONE console per XMas, not both.

Re:It *IS* released Nov 2006 worldwhile

[default luser]

Agreed. People who don't believe this need a touch of history.

Back in the 1980s, most TVs were much smaller than what they sell today, and much lower quality. You had a lucky few with big screens (greater than 30"), a significantly larger slice with screens in the 20-30" range, and the majority of the population with screens ranging from 12-20".

It's absolutely amazing how times change. My computer monitors even going back to the mid-1990s dwarf my family's old 14" TV, and have much better sharpness, bandwidth and color fidelity. You can buy 27" TVs at Walmart for less than 150 bucks that have visual quality most of us could only wish for in the 80s.

So, it's no surprise that VHS was considered good in the 1980s, when you consider that the average TV of the era was tiny and crappy. The 1990s started the wave of cheaper, larger, higher-fidelity televisions that showed the limitations of VHS, and by the end of the decade the market was hungry for DVD.

Unfortunately, the market hasn't changed much since DVDs were introduced. Screen sizes are up a bit, but HDTV technology is still too expensive for your average Walmart buyer. Even if HDTV suddenly dropped to the price range of your average Walmart buyer, you'd still have to wait 5 years or so for a potential market to build up.

HD-DVD and Bluray are in a very similar position to Laserdisc...not a huge improvement over the cheaper alternative, and selling to a very limited market. When only 5-10% of the market even owns equipment good enough to tell the difference, and they have to shell out $500+ to experience it, you've got limited room for growth.

Art of war

[tacokill]

"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" -- Sun Tzu (Anonymous), The Art of War

Re:Art of war

[YU Nicks NE Way]

No -- that's Napoleon you're quoting. The Art of War is about winning wars when you can't assume that your enemy will do anything stupid.

Maybe a troll

[tprime]

You guys don't get it when it comes to Sony and Linux. Go ahead and mark this a troll. Sony is MORE abusive than MS when it comes to their interactions with their customers, but slap the words Linux on it and many people on Slashdot become instant supporters. I use Windows and Linux (depending on which workstation I am currently working on) and to me, Sony defies everything that Linux originally stood for. We have DRM that limits YOUR rights with your media. The PSP has not 1 but 2 proprietary media formats. Does anyone remember ATRAC3, another proprietary DRMed format we didn't need. Also, please keep in mind that the version of Linux that will be bundled with the PS3 will have to conform to ALL of Sony's vices, and won't be the garden variety that we can do what we please with. Linux compatibility doesn't make it all better.....

The most that all three companies care about is your money, its the underlying current that differs. MS cares about the profit of their system while forcing you to have their desktop system to use all of the functions. Sony cares about the profit of their system while forcing you to give up your fair use rights in music and movies. Nintendo seems to be the biggest straight shooter of them all, they just want to make money (maybe I am just missing their subversion)

None of the three companies are doing ANYTHING here because they think it is the right thing to do, but rather because it suits their profit model in the long term