Torn-up Credit Card Apps Not So Safe

Maximum Prophet writes "This dude tears up a credit card application, tapes it back together, sends it in with his cell phone number and father's address, and voila, gets a credit card. Who would have thought security at a credit card company was so lax? The company recommends that consumers "tear up" financial solicitations before throwing them away, "so thieves can't use them to assume your identity.", but according to them, "Applications that arrive in damaged form are customarily transferred to an electronic format, he said -- often by machine. So it's possible a human being never handled the taped-up application and never had the chance to spot the obvious sign of trouble." In this era where we worry so much about identity theft, this sort of thing really makes you wonder what the point really is.

Comments

shred shred shred

[Luyseyal]

I always shred this kind of thing.
-l

Re:shred shred shred

[TimeTrav]

That may be, but theres nothing stopping a would-be identity thief from raiding your mailbox in the morning before you can get to it. I really loathe these pre-approved credit card ads that come with large bright "0% for six months!!!" print on the outer envelope.

The reason these are considered "safe" is that most all credit card applications require a social security number. So, that means the identity thief has to steal a piece of mail from your health insurance company, which is a pretty reliable way of obtaining a social security number, since most insurance companies use it as a unique subscriber identifier. Theres no way to win.

Re:shred shred shred

[Skater]

In the US, you can now use a phone number (it's something like 1-888-3OptOut) to opt out of the prescreened credit card offers. I did so several weeks back and the offers have slowed to a trickle.

I do kind of miss shredding the fake AmEx cards that came with their offers, though.

Re:shred shred shred

[sacherjj]

Yep, cross cut shread everything that I throw away that even might have encriminating data. If you are more paranoid, you can keep a burn bag of the shreaded stuff.

Re:shred shred shred

[nizo]

I solved this problem by having credit that is so bad, people literally laugh at me when I apply for a card. The weird part is I still get these offers in the mail; I still think it is a ploy by the credit card companies to give their employees a good laugh now and then.

Re:shred shred shred

[smooth wombat]

If for some reason you're fire averse a pair of scissors properly applied for about 10 seconds will prove sufficient to defeat the roll of tape.

You'd think so, wouldn't you. However, you might want to read this story about the Iranian students in 1979.

First three sentences of the fourth paragraph:

This was the situation up until November 1979 when Iranian students seized an entire archive of CIA and State Department documents, which represented one of the most extensive losses of secret data in the history of any modern intelligence service. Even though many of these documents were shredded into thin strips before the Embassy, and CIA base, was surrendered, the Iranians managed to piece them back together. They were then published in 1982 in 54 volumes under the title "Documents From the U.S. Espionage Den", and are sold in the United States for $246.50.

This particular story didn't say so but I read elsewhere that the students laid out the shredded documents on the floor of gymnasiums and pieced the documents back together.

Re:shred shred shred

[johnkoer]

The FTC has an alert that gives you a few options, including the phone # to call for opting out.

Re:shred shred shred

[jdray]

After burning up a couple of COTS shredders (don't believe the outside of the boxes when they describe how much they can cut at once), my wife and I have resorted to burning junk mail in the fireplace. We toss in a couple of logs, sit back with cups of tea, and enjoy the warmth provided by a couple months' collection of junk mail.

Re:shred shred shred

[Topherbyte]

Interesting that this topic should be up today .... I have recently found the perfect use for my collection of nearly-worthless and annoying pennies. Shred the application (cross-cut of course!) but by all means KEEP the business reply envelope and the nicely folded piece of paper that describes the offer. That offer letter is always physically wider than the business reply envelope, so you will have to cut it shorter by an inch or so (width-wise) to get it to fit. It's too bad I don't have a pic up on my web server for illustrative purposes, because I have found a particularly good use for this piece of paper:

On each folded section use shipping tape to affix 3 rows of 6 or 7 pennies each, for a total of 18-21 pennies per fold. Et voila! A most fitting reply to unsolicited tree-destruction that will lessen your load of annoying pennies and cost them at least $1.80 to receive. The last little gem I sent weighed so much it cost them $2.07 in postage.

and that... is what you get WHEN YOU MESS WITH THE MAL-LIN TEMPLE.

Z-FIRE!

Re:shred shred shred

[cr0sh]

The reason these are considered "safe" is that most all credit card applications require a social security number. So, that means the identity thief has to steal a piece of mail from your health insurance company, which is a pretty reliable way of obtaining a social security number, since most insurance companies use it as a unique subscriber identifier. Theres no way to win.

Actually, if you sign up for insurance, for most applications you can write the words "please assign" in the space for the SSN, and the company will assign a number for your policy. I should note that some brokers will get smart with you, and try to "guilt you" into providing your real social "in the event you are incapacitated" and "so your loved ones can help". Don't let them guilt you (if I am incapacitated or dead - I don't care anymore, now do I?). Also, don't put in a "fake SSN", as these get caught fairly easily (and you'll get a phone call or letter) - or if they aren't, then it might be YOU who are guilty of "identity theft", if it is found out it matches someone else's real number in the system...

Re:shred shred shred

[bnenning]

Several years ago when I had no credit record I applied for a Discover card. On the same day a few weeks later, I received two pieces of mail: a rejection of my application due to insufficient history, and a offer to sign up for a Discover card.

Re:shred shred shred

[Carnildo]

Forget pennies and other lightweight stuff. The best solution:
1) Carefully steam the postage-paid envelope open at the seams.
2) Find a suitable-sized brick or brick fragment.
3) Wrap the envelope around the brick, in such a way that the postage-paid note and the address are on the same face.
4) Glue the envelope back together.
5) Mail it.
6) ???
7) Less profit!

Re:shred shred shred

[MillionthMonkey]

I keep a copy of the 217 page Bankruptcy Abuse Prevention and Consumer Protection Act of 2005 handy for this kind of thing. When I get a credit card offer, I print out a polite letter explaining that I must decline the card because of a lack of bankruptcy protection, and that I am including a copy of the legislation in case they have any questions. I cram it all into the business reply envelope. Unfortunately I have to print double sided or 4 sheets to a page but that envelope gets crammed pretty good- nice and heavy.

I met a guy with an even better idea. He has a home equity line of credit (HELOC). When a stupid credit card offer comes offering 0% interest, he pulls a couple grand out of the HELOC. Then he applies for the card and does a balance transfer from the new CC account to the HELOC. (Credit cards are too smart to just send you wads of cash when you apply, but they will give you the money if it's to pay another creditor- that's why he uses the HELOC, as an account to shift balances around.) If he gets the card and the transfer goes through, he puts the money in a CD earning 4.5% that matures when the card's introductory period expires.

Re:shred shred shred

[shabble]

This is a recognised way of making money out of CC's in the UK - http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/cgi-bin/viewnews. cgi?newsid1076883546,34894,

whose fault

[opencity]

'Shouldn't' this be the companies problem? MCI decided years ago I owe them money, I don't, and every two years some collection agency comes calling.

Re:whose fault

[Skim123]

Can MCI provide you with a copy of a document you signed regarding the charges? If not (and if I'm not mistaken), what they're doing is illegal. Next time you get a call, request this information and if they can't or won't provide it, tell them that if they call you again it's off to the FCC and your state's attorney general.

Re:whose fault

[InsertCleverUsername]

'Shouldn't' this be the companies problem?

Can MCI provide you with a copy of a document you signed regarding the charges? If not (and if I'm not mistaken), what they're doing is illegal.

Please forgive me for sounding condescending, but parent and grandparent posts are COMPLETELY missing the point. It doesn't matter if it's illegal, all that matters is the they (giant, godless corporations) have infinitely deep pockets and an army of lawyers, while you have enough trouble making the rent. They are COUNTING on this.

As long as they're vastly more powerful than us, it is usually to their advantage to create problems for you that you may (or may not) pay to make go away. I finally paid a lawyer over $5,000 to correct MBNA's refusal to stop reporting credit fraud as mine. Once the 100 page brief was filed with the court and MBNA saw that there would be financial consequences, they finally backed off.

There's a huge difference between what's illegal and what's prosecuted.

Re:whose fault

[Sycraft-fu]

Thus far I've taken on three big companies (FedEx, Pepboys, and AT&T) over charges I didn't owe and was sent to collections for. I spent a total of maybe $10 on certified mail. I won in all cases, none had to hit the courts.

The reason they get away with this is not because they are big and powerful and use lawyers to crush you, they do not want or need that kind of expense, not to mention bad publicity. The reason they get away with it is because people like you preach hopelessness and people don't fight back, so it's easy to do.

For the extra paranoid

[metternich]

I always try to put different pieces of my financial documents in different trash bins. I suspose burning them would be even more effective.

Possible? Yeah, but highly improbable

[defile]

"Applications that arrive in damaged form are customarily transferred to an electronic format, he said -- often by machine. So it's possible a human being never handled the taped-up application and never had the chance to spot the obvious sign of trouble."

What, a machine opened the letter, recognized it was an application (and not, say, other junkmail that got stuffed into the nearest bulk reply envelope), fed it into a scanner, then trashed the hard copy? At no point in the process does a human see it? Sounds like bullshit.

Re:Uhoh.

[Rob T Firefly]

He got the card in his own name, no actual fraud was comitted. This proof of concept only demonstrates that an actual fraudster could do exactly what he did.

Solution!

[wiggles]

Buy a shredder. I shred every credit card offer and transfer check my current credit card company sends me. It's ridiculous the crap they send me. One of these days, a thief is going to raid my mailbox before I get home and get a credit card in my name. Oh well. At least I get to play Enron Executive with my niece.

Re:Solution!

[clamantis]

You can also Opt Out by calling 1-888-5-OPTOUT.

Re:Solution!

[garcia]

One of these days, a thief is going to raid my mailbox before I get home and get a credit card in my name.

Last summer I had a notice in my mailbox from the Postmaster that stated there were reports of mail theft in our neighborhood and that we should be watching closely for ID theft.

My wife is concerned with throwing mail away and the thieves getting it there. Why would they bother to go through my trash and get dirty when they can get it fresh from my mailbox w/no one the wiser.

Re:Solution!

[NecrosisLabs]

I go even further... We have a shredder, and I empty it once a week into the bag with the used cat litter. If someone wants to spend the effort to reassemble my finacial statements after digging through that mess, well, they've just about earned it.

The basis: Where Credit Comes From

[dada21]

Why do banks accept any application, even ones with errors?

Banks want you to have credit -- of course they'll accept any application as long as the name and social security number match their lookups, and your FICO score is reasonably high (although banks are now lowering standards to give out even more credit).

When a bank offers credit, it does so based on money it has (of course). Yet it is very important for the average person to understand where this "money" comes from -- especially digital money such as you'd have when you have an available credit line.

All banks that are part of the central banking system (the Federal Reserve) are required by the Federal Reserve to stick something called a money multiplier. I believe the current money multiplier is 12% or so, but it varies. This basically means that a bank must keep a reserve of that amount versus the actual money is sends out. If a bank loans out $1000, it has to keep $120 in the bank. Even if it loans out the $880 ($120 in reserves) the bank can stil say it has $1000 in demand deposits available -- even though it doesn't.

The collusion comes into place when the first bank is given $1000 by the Federal Reserve. The Federal Reserve is allowed to print new money out of thin air by creating loans against government property and future government income. This initial $1000 is placed in Bank A as available cash. Bank A holds $120 but loans the remaining $880 to Bank B which is also part of the Federal Reserve banking system. Bank A still holds a demand deposit value of $1000 which is available to be withdrawn! Bank B also has $880, but has to reserve 12% of it ($105). It then loans the rest ($775) to Bank C, but still lists $880 as its available balance of demand deposits. Bank C reserves its 12% ($93) and loans the rest ($682) to Bank D, while still listing the original $775) as its available balance. This collusion continues to go around until there is no more reserve balance available. In the end, the original $1000 the Federal Reserve created is held as a base reserve for the $9000 or so "new money" that is created.

Banks need people to accept this money in loans or in credit -- this is the way the bank actually makes money. Eventually all the loans are hopefully paid back into the system, so the bank makes a nice interest rate. On the new $1000 created, each bank wants to loan out as much as possible -- and these loans are used to buy goods, which recycles money back into the banks which can be kept as reserves to create even more money! If the bank takes $1000 and loans out $880 but receives $400 of that bank in, it can now loan out a portion of that $400 that it has in reserves.

In the long run, the system wants debt out there because it is created out of fake inter-bank loans anyway. Most of you don't even see your physical money because it doesn't exist -- there are about $600 billion dollars in circulation worldwide, but there are over $10.2 trillion dollars on the books!

And people have faith in the system.

Re:The basis: Where Credit Comes From

[Have Blue]

What you're describing is called the "money multiplier" and is a well-understood economic principle. It was created to keep track of the fact that money is spent repeatedly while it's in the system, but for brand-new goods and services each time. This happens with plain old cash as well as bank loans, since it gets spent over and over again before it's reclaimed and destroyed by the Federal Reserve.

Re:The basis: Where Credit Comes From

[jaoswald]

The collusion comes into place when the first bank is given $1000 by the Federal Reserve.

This is an idiotic post. The Federal Reserve does not just give money away to banks. They give paper currency and coin against electronic balances held by member banks at the Federal Reserve, but that is just trading one type of money for another, not creating it. The Federal Reserve also offers a "discount window" from which banks can request loans at a particular overnight rate, but they charge interest, and can refuse to give the loans if they feel it is not wise to do so, and banks typically do not rely on this for day-to-day-operations. They *do* engage in open market operations to buy and sell government securities, but that is separate from the multiplier.

Banks put their money in reserve accounts at the Federal Reserve, and can lend those reserves to one another at what is basically a market-determined rate. But this is irrelevant to the multiplier. Changing which bank's reserve account at the Federal Reserve holds money does not create or destroy it.

The key link that you've missed out on is that the money goes through the participants in the economy. Your local bank gets deposits because you decided your piggy bank was full and you'd rather earn interest on it. Or because you did work that your employer decided to pay you for.

What is the bank supposed to do with that money? Stick it in a super-sized mattress until you want it? No, they'll lend it to people who want to buy things or to run a business, or through the Federal Reserve to other banks that have customers who want to borrow money.

The trick is that people do not typically take that loan money and keep it in a nice little pile of green paper. Instead, they borrowed the money because they had a good idea of how they could *spend* it. They spend it, let's say at a local merchant, who doesn't need to spend it himself right away, and decides to deposit in a bank.

THAT idea, that all currency, including loans, ends up virtually immediately being redeposited into the banking system, is what causes the multiplier. This happens because currency itself is not particularly useful, whereas deposits can earn interest.

That's not hocus-pocus or collusion. It simply means that when the Federal Reserve DOES engage in changing the money supply by buying and selling government securities, that it has to account for the multiplier effect to know how much money is actually added to the economy for a given operation.

http://federalreserve.gov/pubs/bulletin/1997/19971 1lead.pdf

The $600 billion dollar figure is for physical paper currency. Unless *everybody* dealt in cash all the time, there is no reason this number has to agree with the total money supply.

http://federalreserve.gov/releases/h41/Current/

Re:The basis: Where Credit Comes From

[ZeLonewolf]

The 12% or whatever is called the Reserve ratio. In any case, it's actually much worse than you stated. Once a bank is fully loaned up (e.g. the currency to outstand loan value is only 12%), it's not done. To a bank, a loan is an asset - after all, it's earning interest. The bank can then turn around, and get a loan from the Federal Reserve at the discount window, using their existing loans as collateral. Then they loan the new (smaller) pot of money out to the public. Then, the bank turns around and gets a new smaller loan from the Federal Reserve using the new smaller pile of loans as collateral. This goes around and around until the bank is fully loaned up at a ratio that's something like 35:1.

If you want to read more about how this works, I suggest reading "The Creature from Jekyll Island" by Ed Griffin.

Re:The basis: Where Credit Comes From

[ZeLonewolf]

Unfortunately the government has the wool over your eyes a bit: inflation is a way for the government to tax you in a hidden way. In fact, it is entirely possible for the government to stop taxing alltogether and simply fund itself through inflation. This was actually tried in Alabama a few hundred years ago, before states were prohibited from printing their own money. Since the Alamaba legislature could print as much money as it liked, there were no constraints on government spending, and the whole system collapsed within a few years.

As long as the government has the power to weaken the value of your dollar, it's JUST as bad as taxation.

So the question is, if taxing is so unpopular, why not just use inflation? Well, then, people would probably start to wonder where the money came from, in addition to the constraint of public spending problem stated above.

But He Sent it In

[A Commentor]

Where the problem??? Obviously, the credit company has some really advanced process that allowed them to determine that he actually sent it in (maybe they check the fingerprints on the tape, who knows)..

If a real criminal would have attempted to tape it togather and send it in, the company would definitely not accept it...

And for the humor impaired ;-)

Pimply faced kids

[rueger]

Said it before, I'll say it again, I worry more about handing my card to the PFK at the corner gas station that about people going though my trash or grabbing my info off of the 'net.

Most of the fruad that I've suffered has been at the hands of large corporations that reckon that my lawyer won't be willing to take on their lawyer.

Re:Pimply faced kids

[Danse]

Does the number really need to be ON the card? It's on the magnetic strip, which the machine reads. It never needs to be displayed. Sure, it's security through obscurity, but it is better than the current system.

A lot of cc and identity theft has been committed by running people's cards through readers that simply record the info from the card and store it to be retrieved later by the thieves. Often happened at grocery stores, convenience stores, restaurants, etc.

Isn't there a human somewhere?

[prozac79]

Isn't there a human in the processing chain somewhere? Doesn't someone have to physically open the envelop and scan the application? It seems like that is the logical place to check for potentially fraudulent applications. I don't believe that step is automated, but then again I've never worked at a place that needs to process thousands of letter a day. Or is it that the person getting paid minimum wage to open and scan letters could care less if someone is committing fraud?

A Simple Way To Prevent This!

[daknapp]

they'll accept any application as long as the name and social security number match their lookups, and your FICO score is reasonably high

There's a foolproof way to keep this kind of identity theft from happening to you: just make sure your FICO score is really, really low!

That way, nobody will be able to get credit in your name. And, as a bonus, it's really easy to do!

Stupid credit card companies

[n1ghtcrawler]

figures, considering they bitch at us to beef up our secuirty with them, and look at them! they dont even bother looking at our applications. THEY ARE THE SECUIRTY THREAT. they all need a huge smack on the head...

Make the banks liable...

[John Whitley]

Once again, I like Bruce Schneier's proposed solution:

The bank must be made responsible, regardless of what the user does.

That quote is from Mitigating identity theft, which provides a refreshing perspective on the problems collectively labelled as identity theft. Bruce points out that many of the "solutions" to identity theft focus on authentication, which misses a critical part of the equation: the fradulent transaction itself. By providing a strong financial incentive to banks to mitigate fraud, the only party which has a real chance to do anything about the problem will fix it and fast.

Pre-approved applications

[Beryllium Sphere(tm)]

>I really loathe these pre-approved credit card ads that come with large bright "0% for six months!!!" print on the outer envelope.

Amen. The reason I opted out of receiving those was exactly the one you mentioned, that they're a security problem.

The number to stop them at least used to be 888-5OPTOUT.

Re:Pre-approved applications

[StikyPad]

Actually, the phone number is 212-555-7382. Don't be put off when someone answers with "Hello?" Just ask for Dave, and he'll take your information.

Just saying.. don't take anyone's word for a phone number, especially on an internet forum. Look it up yourself, using www.google.com.a8tisdu4.net or www.yahoo.com@afd9s8yh9ye498hf9s8h4f98j209j4f0jh86 58h42h.hahaigotyou.net.

Stop them at the source

[klossner]

Better than a shredder, ask the banks to stop sending you the applications in the first place: http://www.optoutprescreen.com/. I used to receive several per month, now I get two per year.

Re:Stop them at the source

[Geekenstein]

Somehow, I don't see myself entering all my personal information into a website supposedly run by an organization I never heard of that has it's whois set up with a proxy service to boot. Anyone else rushing out to do this?

Re:Stop them at the source

[dcraigw]

If you're not comfortable with their website, you can give them a call at 888-567-8688. This number is usually listed somewhere in the fine print at the bottom of the credit offers you receive in the mail. If you call the number, however, they do encourage you to use the website if you can. I'm not sure that entering the information over the phone is significantly safer than entering it online, but it's nice that they provide both options for folks like you.

Re:Stop them at the source

[Anonymous Coward]

For those concerned about the site (https://www.optoutprescreen.com/ the FTC links right to them: http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/credit/prescre en.htm

True, but why is it *my* problem to solve?

[Weaselmancer]

Why should I spend my money to solve a problem that some credit card company creates? Especially when I'm not even their freaking customer?

Re:True, but why is it *my* problem to solve?

[valhallaprime]

EXACTLY! It's not like junk e-mail, where it's a nuisance but relatively harmless. I'm getting sent shit that actively is a danger to my financial self. And there's no viable way to stop it.

I live in a city...what's to stop someone from just plucking the unopened offer from my house-attached mailbox? Total Bullshit, these mailings.

this is what suing is for

[mrpeebles]

I don't know if these credit card companies are legally liable for this sort of identity theft, but they should be. If they are going to make money putting us all at risk for identity theft, they should pay for any damages we incure, including any inconvenience it causes us. Ditto for all these companies that collect data on us.

wimp

[JeanBaptiste]

I shred it, then I set it on fire. I then take the ashes and compress them into a diamond-like form. Then I smash it apart, and put the crystal shards inside the event horizon of a black hole, beyond which no information about the black hole's interior can escape to the outer universe.

its the only way to be completely sure.

Re:wimp

[Luyseyal]

If you read Fark you'd know that "nearly all of the information that falls into a black hole escapes back out"...

-l

p.s., ... "a controversial new study argues". ;)

Re:wimp

[MyLongNickName]

Wasteful. I work for the department of defense. I just claim the documents are part of the war on terror. They get marked classified, and no one sees them for 25 years.

Re:wimp

[Luyseyal]

You mean where they'll be examined by "top men"?
-l

What? Me, worry?

[panda]

In this era where we worry so much about identity theft, this sort of thing really makes you wonder what the point really is.

The point is, that there isn't any point. :)

It's exactly that kind of thing, and the real lack of concern that I've witnessed from gov't agencies and financial institutions all along, concerning everything from someone's actual name and SSN being used as an alias by a known felon (and the SSA refusing to issue a new SSN for the "victim") to loan officers that say that there's so much junk data on credit reports that they often ignore a lot of it, that caused me not to worry if my "identity" is "stolen."

Re:Possible? Yeah, but highly improbable

[paeanblack]

If humans aren't involved in the letter opening process, it's time to have some real fun...see how well their machines handle foreign substances

1) Save the return envelope.
2) Fold up a blank piece of paper with a nice wad of chewing gum/peanut butter/diaper contents/etc
3) Mail your "application"
4) ???
5) Profit

Re:Possible? Yeah, but highly improbable

[thparker]

What, a machine opened the letter, recognized it was an application (and not, say, other junkmail that got stuffed into the nearest bulk reply envelope), fed it into a scanner, then trashed the hard copy? At no point in the process does a human see it? Sounds like bullshit.

I'd guess yes, at no point in the process does a human see it.

Here's one vendor -- OPEX. This one does opening and extraction but isn't particularly fast at 17,000/hr. They have a scanning solution as well -- significantly slower but the mail goes straight from envelope to scan.

This is just what I've found in a quick search because I knew something like it existed; I'm not that familiar with the high-speed mail processing industry. I'd imagine that the technology would surprise most people.

Re:Its called a cross cut shredder

[Beryllium Sphere(tm)]

>Why not just shred it using a cross cut shredder. thats what i do . I would like to see somebody put something that has been through one of those back together.

Churchstreet Technologies will scan the debris in a shredder's output bin and their software will reconstruct it in RAM. They claim to be able to piece together even crosscut documents as long as you haven't mixed several bags together. Seems to be that columns of number would be an intractable problem, I don't know whether they can manage those.

Opt out

[thermopylae300]

For folks in the US: To opt out of receiving offers of credit in the mail, call: 1-888-5-OPTOUT (1-888-567-8688). http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/credit/idtheft .htm#Minimizing/

Re:Possible? Yeah, but highly improbable

[HogGeek]

Working in the mailing industry, I'll call your bullshit, and raise you a scanner.

Not only is it possible, but probable. While I would expect a lot of errors, or "bad" data from the scan, I promise you it was scanned...

Re:Meanwhile...

[Siffy]

It's that damn 3M company and their transparent tape at it again!

This is just the tip of the iceberg!

[HellYeahAutomaton]

1) Credit card companies send out blank checks with your account info on them, in feeble attempts to get you to spend up with a lower interest rate where they will charge you jacked up rates when you don't pay in full.(and anyone swiping your mail can use your CC
as good as cash)

2) Credit card companies are sending out more and more "authoritative looking" mail offers that makes it look like a check is being made out to you, but it swindles you into some sort of agreement that will cost you more.

Even if you opt out with various agencies, all bets are off if you have a service with any company, and they will adwhore you until you submit!

These companies are extremely shady.

OptOut - Get off their prescreen lists.

[gjcamann]

From the http://www.ftc.gov/ websight: "1-888-5-OPTOUT (1-888-567-8688) or visit http://www.optoutprescreen.com/ for details" This will prevent companies from pre-approving you for credit stuff. Cut down my mail by half.

Existing cards aren't safe either

[Dr. Manhattan]

So, DirecTV accepted my VISA number with (a) a misspelled name and (b) an invalid expiration date and (c) a mailing address halfway across the country from mine. Now I've had to bounce a bunch of mail back and forth (including a "fraud affidavit" that requested so much information on me it might as well have been an identity theft kit in its own right).

Clearly they didn't make even the slightest attempt to validate the charge. I've closed that account and put fraud watches on our credit and so forth, of course, and no other suspicious charges have shown up. Still, it makes me nervous.

Meanwhile, my father-in-law discovered his bank account was several hundred dollars short. Turns out he was auto-paying someone else's gas bill. My wife had a heck of a time straightening that out. The bank insisted it was the utility's responsibility and vice versa. "He signed up for automatic payment!"

"My father doesn't own a computer. Why would you authorize withdrawls for someone else's utility bill in the first place? Especially when their account number is identical except for two transposed digits..."

A mistake in that case, but it would be so easy to do that deliberately...

Re:Possible? Yeah, but highly improbable

[Brewskibrew]

Maybe the opening and scanning got outsourced to India?

Re:But He Filled It Out

[R2.0]

The point he was tyrying to make is that the standard advise of ripping up credit card offers is worthless if any random person can tape the pieces together and apply for credit in your name fraudulently. That's why he applied in his father's name - he put in a fradulent application and it was accepted.

I know I'm going to be more careful to shred them all, but if you still think it's useless, that's fine by me. Send all of your ripped up CC applications to me, and I'll dispose of them.

gymnasium and scotch tape no longer required

[Comboman]

This particular story didn't say so but I read elsewhere that the students laid out the shredded documents on the floor of gymnasiums and pieced the documents back together.

The technology now exists to scan fragments of documents en-mass and piece them together semi-automatically in electronic format. Some human interaction is still required, but it is much faster and easier than the Iranian effort. This is being done to restore ancient manuscripts but I'm sure it's being done in the covert and criminal fields as well with shreded documents.

Re:gymnasium and scotch tape no longer required

[stupidfoo]

Hmm... what happens if you inhale a classified document?

Re:gymnasium and scotch tape no longer required

[The Snowman]

The big industrial strength shredders I've seen for classified material reduce it to literally dust. Nothing is going to reconstruct anything from that.

Classified paper shredders have specific requirements for their output. Suffice to say that nothing short of divine intervention will reconstruct a document shredded by modern standards.

Re:gymnasium and scotch tape no longer required

[jc42]

Another thing some people do is to mix the shredded paper into their compost bin. It's as good as peat moss, and there have been a few studies showing that the bio effects of the ink are insignificant.

Some years ago, when I was in college, I lived in a 4-apartment building that had a coal furnace, but it would also burn paper. We put all our waste paper, including lots of computer output, into the furnace. It saved a significant amount in fuel costs. But the paper didn't burn as long as coal. A full load of coal would burn for two days, as I recall, but paper had to be refilled every day. The ash was about the same with both.

There's gotta be other good uses for paper that you don't want to send to the dump.

Re:Possible? Yeah, but highly improbable

[Deagol]

I send most junk mail solicitations back to the sender in their own return envelope. If they send those neat colorful stickers, I stick a few of those on the envelope's outside border for good measure. So you have an over-stuffed envelope with stickers to gum up the machines.

My wife did a few months on graveyard shift at a First Security payment processing center (before Wells Fargo assimilated them). She said those machines are *really* cool, really fast, and jam up so easily that they have dedicated staff on-hand to fix particularly nasty jams.

So if you want to put a (albeit small) dent in the productivity of the Evil Credit Card Sharks, send back those handy self addressed envelopes stuffed with their own junk mail. Be sure to fold, spindle, and mutilate the envelope, too. :)

Something else the credit card companies do...

[Hamster Lover]

is send you endless reams of "balance transfer" cheques or convenience cheques. Not only are they a complete rip off to use as interest and endless fees apply the second you use one, but they get mixed in with all the other crap they love to send you in the envelope and you don't realize they're there. You end up throwning them away in the trash without voiding or otherwise defacing them to make them worthless. Any enterprising thief scrounging through your garbage can come across them and use them. This happened to a good friend of mine when she threw them away thinking they were some sort of advertising without realizing they were real cheques. Cheque fraud isn't the easiest thing in the world to do anymore, especially in Canada where no merchants will accept cheques anymore, but it does happen.

Ask them to stop sending them to you and they swear up and down it will happen, but it never does. It's just too lucritive for them to stop sending them to you.

Re:Possible? Yeah, but highly improbable

[doombob]

You want high volume processing? Try First Data. My Dad worked there for like 5 years overseeing hundreds of people who ran the machines that did this stuff 24 hours a day. For a while, I worked in one of the Quality Assurance departments for Credit Card bill printing and our team could (mostly) ensure the quality of over a million pieces every day. It's mainly an automated process, but there was always human verification at some point or another. But that doesn't mean that someone can't get sloppy! There were always bonuses the more you pushed through your department (but there were also punishments for letting something like that through).

Re:But He Filled It Out

[Squirmy McPhee]

So sure, if you fill out a credit app, tear it up, and some bozo then pieces it back together, you're in trouble - but if you don't ever fill it out, where's the problem? Seems like a big pile of sensasionalist FUD to me.

Okay, suppose you tear up a credit card application and toss it in the garbage. A few days later you tear up a paycheck stub, old tax form, bank or brokerage statement -- anything with your SSN on it -- and throw that away. What makes you think that a garbage raider won't find the information and use it to fill out the torn-up application? Sure there are other, more dastardly things they could with the information, and even without the application the thief could simply go online, but small-time crooks are often opportunists who do whatever is most convenient.

Something like this is not far-fetched in the least, at least not if credit card companies will process a taped-together application. Years ago someone fished my torn-up credit card information out of the garbage and used it to subscribe to a porn site (the fact that the moron logged in regularly was his undoing). Needless to say, I now shred 80% of everything that arrives in my mailbox.

Re:But He Filled It Out

[Vellmont]

That's why he applied in his father's name - he put in a fradulent application and it was accepted.

Nope, it's not quite that insane. He used his fathers address, but he used his own name (and presumably correct SS#). If you look close you can even see his name (Rob Cockerham) on the application. Learn to read more carefully next time, lest you miss-inform a huge number of people.

Re:Possible? Yeah, but highly improbable

[StikyPad]

You know, I've had other friends suggest the "smear some of substance X on the paper" idea. I'm no lawyer, but I think sending biohazardous material through the mail is probably a felony, and would likely be the target of a much larger investigation in a "Post 9/11 era" than I'd care to be a party in. While peanut butter may not count, its less tasty digested form probably would.

Re:Possible? Yeah, but highly improbable

[Fulcrum of Evil]

So if you want to put a (albeit small) dent in the productivity of the Evil Credit Card Sharks, send back those handy self addressed envelopes stuffed with their own junk mail. Be sure to fold, spindle, and mutilate the envelope, too. :)

Nah, just send back the application (blank) with a thin layer of jelly.

Re:Possible? Yeah, but highly improbable

[StikyPad]

Forgot to mention the solution I did end up using for a particularly determined bank which kept sending me high interest "pre-approved" credit card applications:

I made my own checkbox next to the "YES! Sign me up." that said "No thanks," and checked it. Naturally, I put it in the business reply envelope, along with a dollar or two in pennies (to be used toward the processing fee of course), and sent it on its way.

They never sent me another application.

Re:Why PO Boxes are not a solution.

[R2.0]

"Can someone explain to me why a PO Box is not acceptable as an address?"

One reason, which has nothing to do with your problems, is that UPS/FedEx/etc. cannot deliver to PO boxes.

Shred things to microns: bleach, bucket, water

[geekotourist]

A few years ago I decided that shredding took too much time. I wasn't looking forward to the yearly "shred the 11 year old financial documents" along with all the ongoing credit offers.

So I came up with my $0.50 shredding system: 1 bucket, 2 cups of bleach, water.

1. put papers flat in bucket
2. pour bleach, let sit outside until bleach- and ink- is gone (a day or two)
3. and/or add water, wait, stir until its pulp soup

Takes a total of 5-10 minutes, and there's no recoverable information: much, much better than my old shredder could do. If I wanted to go artistic I could make paper from the pulp- but the bleach thrashes fiber quality. Maybe I could make some paper bricks to mail in those postage free envelopes if I ever felt I needed to give something back to the credit card offering companies.

OMG!

[LiberalApplication]

Nah, just send back the application (blank) with a thin layer of jelly.

OMG! That's not jelly! EEEEEEWWWWWW!

Don't throw it all out at once...

[mengel]

If you tear something up, put the odd slices in this weeks trash, and the even slices in next weeks (or better, next year's) trash.

Then let's see them put it back together...

Shred AND mail

[jridley]

Shred the application, but if it came with a postage-paid return envelope, take all the rest of the crap in there, and fold up the outer envelope as well, and maybe some sawdust and dust bunnies, and mail it back to them so they have to pay the postage. Make sure you shred the bit that had your name and address on it or they might give you a credit card anyway.

Something to do while watching movies.