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God of War, Counter-Strike, 360 Design at GDC

Posted by ryuzaki0 on from the good-times-keep-rolling dept.

Some more great writeups of GDC events are now available. Gamasutra's coverage continues to be comprehensive, with articles on the localization of Counter-Strike, the development of God of War, and the a design postmortem on the Xbox 360. God of War: How the Left and Right Brain Learned to Love One Another discusses the ways the dev team balanced the needs of the artists, designers, and programmers to create a cohesive title. The Localization of Counter-Strike in Japan gives the reader some object lessons in what it's like to take western ideas and translate them to an eastern culture. Finally, Ophelea wrote to mention a GamersInfo.net story on the design of the Xbox 360. From this last article: "The user interface was one of the more difficult designs to accomplish. While the original Xbox had 250MB of space to utilize, the Xbox360 had only 4.5MB uncompressed or 1.5MB in total! Not only this, they expanded on the original Xbox's 45 screens and grew it ten fold to 450 screens! Several iterations were gone through with the end result being a combination of several of these schemes."

47 comments

  1. blah post by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Blah post, first@

  2. No sniping? by Zaplocked · · Score: 1

    From the CS Neo article:
    Hiding and sniping are no-nos
    I'm confused as to why they would include the sniper rifles (as seen in the original picture) if they didn't want you to use them as originally intended.

    1. Re:No sniping? by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      So long time players can scream at people who dare to buy a sniper rifle and call them "n00b" and claim that they are using an aimbot because obviously noone but them could hit a barn without using cheats.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    2. Re:No sniping? by acvh · · Score: 1

      No big problem here. They're trying to target their audience and create an experience that will bring people back. If this audience differs from the US audience, then changes in the gameplay are appropriate.

      It's no secret that Japanese gamers are not US gamers.

    3. Re:No sniping? by wheany · · Score: 1

      They want to catch the cheaters

    4. Re:No sniping? by xtieburn · · Score: 1

      It is a constant source of amazement to me that so many multiplayer games include sniper rifles.

      They provide unsatisfying deaths often on both ends and are the primary tool of choice for campers. Ive left more than a handful of games because of sitting there waiting for a couple of clowns to stop sitting in a shady corner and actually go and shoot something.

      I dont understand the weapon, I dont understand people who use them. Well unless they use it in my half arsed manner where Ill run around and occaisionally crouch, zoom up, and scan the horizon. Its usually just more fun to run in with a good ol shotgun.

      The Railgun remains the only sniper weapon that doesnt piss me off. Not only does it not have a zoom (or at least a very effective zoom given fov bindings suck.) the game is fast enough that you dont always get hit and as soon as they have screwed up youve got a bright neon beam showing you exactly where to pour on the rockets.

    5. Re:No sniping? by nutshell42 · · Score: 1
      This whole thing sounds like he tries to recreate Quake with the Source Engine.

      If you don't want sniping and camping, why play CS at all?

      --
      Don't think of it as a flame---it's more like an argument that does 3d6 fire damage
    6. Re:No sniping? by Some_Llama · · Score: 1

      Hmm, well CS has a way to deal with snipers (smoke or flashbang) to allow you to get close up, and most of the other games have some way of making the sniper rifle's power and stealth balanced (like quake3 with the multicolored rail, CS with FB smoke and high price of rifle).

      I actually always liked campers/snipers... once they shoot you know where they are, once you get up close they are defenseless and they usually camp the same spot (or the usual "camper" spots) so regularly firing a few rockets or tossing a grenade in the typical camper spots usually gets me some free kills.

      It would be kind of boring if every game only had one gun right?

    7. Re:No sniping? by Zaplocked · · Score: 1

      That's the most painfully generic comment I have ever seen. It explains nothing; it merely reiterates the original article in general, and focuses nothing on my question.
      Were you aiming for a different post to reply to, and somehow hit mine?

    8. Re:No sniping? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sniping will be replaced by Kamakazi charges with a fully loaded MP5

  3. CS Neo - Where is Ledzone? by 2008 · · Score: 1

    Where are these Ledzone Counterstrike arcades? Anyone got some addresses? Or, better still, GPS co-ordinates (Japanese addresses are tricky.)?

    --
    I quit!
  4. From the Counter-Strike article: by eviloverlordx · · Score: 3, Funny

    The characters are gritty, burly, and not particularly appealing - so Namco got an artist to anime them up a little, replacing sweaty gringos with guys in primary-colored spandex and PVC shoulderpads

    This isn't looking too good...

    and hairy guys in fatigues and ski masks with antigravity-busted women in three square inches of purple nylon.

    ...but I can live with it.

    --
    'Loose' is when your pants are three sizes too big. 'Lose' is when you misuse 'loose'.
    1. Re:From the Counter-Strike article: by hmccabe · · Score: 1

      This is my problem: I love video games, but I hate sugarry pop culture. I wish video games weren't based on the comic book tastes of the countries these games come from. On my PS2 I have two games, Gran Turismo 4 and Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas, because I don't like either the Japanese anime style nor the US comic book style. Japanese RPGs have interesting combat engines, but I don't know how to sit through all the pop culture madness that assault me in dozens of unskippable cutscenes. I remember being bored when I had some time off of work, and someone suggested Final Fantasy X2 to me. I didn't get past looking at the box with that one, but it's not that much worse than other Japanese games. I assume they feel the same way about most US games; I'm inclined to agree. They seems to be based on either the Fast and Furious aesthetic (extreme in much the same way that Mountain Dew is) or old-school comics, with shirtless barbarians in some Tolkien rehash. Grand Theft Auto is great, but where are the other good console games for people older that 14? Am I just waiting for The Sopranos to get licenced into a game? Oh, I still think a good game trumps any little issues like these. The Zelda for Gamecube is one of my favorite games ever. It just seems with such a huge market for videogaming, we the consumers are compromising WAY too much. Playing some PS2 should not feel like watching Fox.

    2. Re:From the Counter-Strike article: by Jace+of+Fuse! · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'm glad you're views aren't the strong majority.

      I hate overly realistic "Gung-Ho" militant shit in games.

      I couldn't give 2 rat's asses about racing games that look like my TV is tuned to some motosporting event. And as much as I like some racing games, I'd rather see more Carmageddons than Grand Turismos.

      I'll puke if I see one more historical war rehash as a 3rd person shooter. I'll take Shogo's Comic Influence over any of the newest first person shooters any day.

      I think the reason a lot of gamers feel the way I do is that video games are supposed to be fun, over the top, and SURREAL.

      Yes. SURREAL. Pac-Man wasn't a dog, a pig, or a bug. He was a -- uh - A Pac-person. Mario might have been a plumber, but he wasn't stomping on Lawyers, he was stomping on -- uh -- whatever Goombas are.

      Early video games were surreal probably more for the sake of their inherent limitations. Modern video games are surreal because realistic is dull and boring.

      If every game looked relaistic, nothing would be interesting. The more advanced graphics rendering engines become the harder it is to differentiate the look of a game.

      Give me surrealism to realism anyday. As far as I'm concerned there are too many "mainstream realism oriented" games today.

      And to counter your view, in MY opinion the realism --IS-- the Pop-Culture. Not the cartoony surreal stuff. That, if anything, is the Unpop culture. It is the real spirit and heritage of video gaming. And if you don't like it, buy the games you do like. Just remember, some of us wouldn't have it any other way.

      --

      "Everything you know is wrong. (And stupid.)"

      Moderation Totals: Wrong=2, Stupid=3, Total=5.
  5. CS Neo by christian.elliott · · Score: 1

    More information on their offical website.

    Seems to be built on the Source Engine rather than the original. Models look interesting though, along with the levels.

    --
    Fractured Element
    1. Re:CS Neo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well I suppose the models look "interesting," but Japanese people are just weird. Why can't they play a Western PC game like everyone else? I don't have any problems playing their games.

      Well, I guess you can expect nothing less from people who invented hentai.

  6. 250mb of space for an interface.. by Inoshiro · · Score: 1

    And not a single screen dedicated to setting the bitrate used for ripping music from CDs to be used as a soundtrack in the games.

    Why design a 5.1 hifi Dolby Digital Surround capable box if all you're going to do is rip audio at the equivalent of 128kbits?

    --
    --
    Internet Explorer (n): Another bug -- that is, a feature that can't be turned off -- in Windows.
    1. Re:250mb of space for an interface.. by RexRhino · · Score: 1, Troll

      There are several reasons... some good, some bad.

      The good: 128kbits is the "standard" for MP3s nowadays, and by not including a lot of settings in ripping, they simplified the interface. 128kbit is a good bitrate. It is pretty small, but sounds OK. Also, higher bitrate may take too much resources if you are playing an mp3 while playing a game. Because this is a game console, and not a PC, I think it is a reasonable decision.

      The Bad: Anything more could have DRM implications? Perhaps making crystal clear copies of a CDs would violate some sort of copyright law, or at least piss off the RIAA or something. I haven't actually ripped any CDs on my Xbox 360, but I am assuming they are saved as a proprietary format, locked for that specific machine, so they cannot be copied, correct?

      The good news is, you can set file sharing with a PC, and play MP3s ripped at any speech you want from your hard drive! The Xbox 360 HD is only 20 gigs (with a lame 13 gigs left over after the Xbox 360 stores it's system information), so I wouldn't even bother putting big audio files on the Xbox HD.

  7. Don't shoot them in the back? by PFI_Optix · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Wow. In a game like CS where kills actually count for something (since you don't instantly respawn), the karma idea is pretty lame. Oh no, you shot someone from too far away. Don't ambush them as they approach their objective, either. And if you turn a corner and find a dope staring in the opposite direction, don't shoot him until he turns around or you step in front of him.

    After all, killing him wouldn't be fair unless he knows you're about to do it and has a chance to kill you first.

    If they'd fought WW2 by those principles, it would have been a SHORT war.

    --
    120 characters for a sig? That's bloody useless.
    1. Re:Don't shoot them in the back? by pxuongl · · Score: 1

      this is what happens when you try to make the game fair for everybody. because fair for everybody means fair for the least skilled player. what is it with asian countries (i'm asian in the US and have traveled through china, singapore, japan, etc) and creating these ninny nanny states that foster sissies and wierd fetishes?

    2. Re:Don't shoot them in the back? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      at least its safer to live there than here. I do get somewhat tired of always going to lan parties and being completely pwned though, i'd certainly appreciate such a thing, might help me last 14 seconds more in a UT2k4 1v1 if they couldn't spawn camp.

    3. Re:Don't shoot them in the back? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree with you that the things they count as bad behavior (sniping, shooting in the back) are pretty stupid. If you get killed from behind, that means you've made a tactical mistake, someone taking advantage of it shouldn't be punished. Likewise if someone gets sniped, they should've made better use of cover.

      That said, I still like the community, match-making and karma systems they have set up. If you could give abusive players and suspected cheaters a lower score so that you're less likely to play a future match with them, that would be quite welcome. Likewise, being able to reward players you have respect for would also help out a lot. Slashdot's moderation system is pretty good at hiding the worst trolls, I think an extension of that to online games is a welcome development.

      The worst part of online gaming is the lack of repurcusions for unwanted/anti-social behavior. Namco in this instance seem to be addressing that - even if they are screwing up a few details (no shooting in the back!?).

    4. Re:Don't shoot them in the back? by PFI_Optix · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The best way to fix the "fairness" problems in CS would be to keep a "skill score". A few things I would implement:

      1) Award more points for killing someone with a glock than an M4, and more for an M4 than an AWP.

      2) Conversely, award more points for the dollar amount of your slain opponent's equipment; a guy with a glock shouldn't be worth the same as a guy with an M4.

      3) Give "assists", points for doing damage to a player if someone else kills them in the same round.

      4) Finishing with 1 hp and 100 hp shouldn't result in the same score. If you get more than one kill, the point values of those kills could be mulitplied if your health is over, say, 80.

      5) AFK players don't count on the scoreboard. If there has been no input from a player during a round, killing them would not impact score.

      6) Implement a karma system similar to /.'s with types like "Team player," "Potential cheater," "Camper," et cetera.

      --
      120 characters for a sig? That's bloody useless.
    5. Re:Don't shoot them in the back? by Some_Llama · · Score: 1

      There are a couple of good stat reporting add-ons for CS that you can "tweak" to do this very thing, of course it is not in-game, but it is something you could parse out after each map or round and then display on a wall with a projector.

      All of the points you listed can be assigned point values that determine the players overall score in a leaderboard as well as distinctive ranks for each type of action (last man standing, most knife kills, most damage done, etc.)

      Overall this (your) suggestion seems more appealing than watering down the game to the point where you have to shake hands with your opponent before firing your M4...

    6. Re:Don't shoot them in the back? by thedletterman · · Score: 1

      I really liked reading this article, and I liked this opinion as well. There's alot we should be doing with available game stats to make the online multiplayer experience more pleasurable... and this whole writeup reminded me of xbox Live. While I don't like some of the mentioned rules, like no back shooting. I'm a big fan of the RB6 sneak up from behind and put a pistol to the back of their head and think it ooozes with skill and style. I hope Sony's online gaming venture will focus closely in characterizing skill levels of players and matching them accordingly. The idea of a player reputation as well as a skill level would be a big bonus. The slashdot karma system would also be great.

      --
      Any fool can criticise, condemn, and complain, and most fools do. - Benjamin Franklin
  8. Japanese can't handle terrorism? by amliebsch · · Score: 1

    I found the fact that he didn't think Japanese players could handle the scenario of terrorist/counterterrorist, especially if the terrorists won. Is this some kind of crude stereotype? are Japanese hypersensitive about this issue specifically? Or just in general? I don't know, but I would speculate they're also pretty sensitive about WWII games, no? More or less so than the Germans?

    --
    If you don't know where you are going, you will wind up somewhere else.
    1. Re:Japanese can't handle terrorism? by Ignignot · · Score: 1

      The thing about Japanese people is that they're Japanese.

      --
      I submitted this story last night, and it didn't get posted.
    2. Re:Japanese can't handle terrorism? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The thing about Japanese people is that they're Japanese.

      The Japanese culture is hard for me to understand.

      On the one hand, they are the ones who created Bushido, Seppuku, and the 47 Ronin. This is the baddest of badass stuff. I mean, if Chuck Norris somehow couldn't have been born in the U. S. of A., he would've had to be some kind of samauri or something in Japan.

      But then on the other hand, the Japanese are also the people who gave the world Hello Kitty, Pokemon, and Sailor Moon. So, go figure.

    3. Re:Japanese can't handle terrorism? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Chuck Norris invented Japan.

    4. Re:Japanese can't handle terrorism? by raptorjb007 · · Score: 0, Troll

      The problem with Japan is...that it's full of Japs.

    5. Re:Japanese can't handle terrorism? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      The problem with Japan is...that it's full of Japs.

      Racist much?

    6. Re:Japanese can't handle terrorism? by raptorjb007 · · Score: 1

      Nope, just thought it a good time to modify a quote from braveheart. /humor ?

    7. Re:Japanese can't handle terrorism? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hello Kitty ought to terrify you...

    8. Re:Japanese can't handle terrorism? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Nope, just thought it a good time to modify a quote from braveheart. /humor ?
      by using the term, "Japs"?

      What's next? Gonna update Fifth Element quotes with Polish jokes?

    9. Re:Japanese can't handle terrorism? by raptorjb007 · · Score: 1

      ...hrmmm, I'll have to re-watch that movie, gimmie some time.

  9. Worst. Mod. EVAR. by I+Like+Pudding · · Score: 1

    On the other end of the karma stream are cheap hits. Hiding and sniping are no-nos; Taninami wants to encourage players to always fight fair, and shoot each other from the front. The system can detect when a player shoots someone from behind, and will send a warning. If a player is camping, again with the warning; if the player persists, he will show up on the radar. Taninami is fascinated that even with this disadvantage, still some players persist at misbehaving.

    This is what happens when you hand game design over to a shitty player. WAHHHH STOP AWPING. Sickening.

    1. Re:Worst. Mod. EVAR. by SSCGWLB · · Score: 2, Interesting

      What, no kamikaze mode? They should be able to strap 10 HE grenades to their spandex torsos and fling themselves at the other team!!! I bet the loosing team doesn't even have to commit Seppuku! Kids these days, sure don't have the starch of their ancestors.

      ~nate

    2. Re:Worst. Mod. EVAR. by Pxtl · · Score: 1

      Reading that one made me think "sounds like they didn't want CounterStrike at all".

      I mean really, there are plenty of games that focus on offense, action, sexy anime-style characters with big boobs and violent fun. Counterstrike isn't one of them. UT would probably be ideal if it wasn't so old (UT2k4 is very FPS-noob-unfriendly though).

  10. 128kbits is terrible. by Inoshiro · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If you have lots of hearing damage in the high end, perhaps it is ok. However, to me, I can hear the distortion in vocals over the engines in Sega GT and Project Gotham. That means it's bad.

    What's bad about a higher bitrate? Nothing. It chews less CPU time to encode and decode (after all, the trade off is compressed representation vs. CPU power), and results in a better representation of the music file. The Xbox HD is fast enough loading that you can have your 64mb of ram section up such that you have a buffer window of 128kbytes - 512kbytes, which can cover several seconds of MP3 data at 192 or 256kbits (4 - 16 seconds depending on if you pick lower or upper size). This assumes CBR encoding -- VBR encoding will be better.

    So there are no technical reasons they could not have done this. The XBox is, as you pointed out, limited, so people wouldn't be loading their entire MP3 collection on to the device without running out of room for save games.

    On the other hand, I would be able to load the songs I like onto my Xbox. Even 1gb of music would be plenty (my Shuffle is only 512mb in size, and with my 10-15mb MP3 files, I still get 3 hours of non-repeat music, which means I hear every song twice before the battery dies). So storage isn't a problem either.

    The fact is that these people at Microsoft put out half-baked products. They put in just enough to get a bullet point on the box, but don't really invesitage the use cases or consider it in the context of the rest of the device. The only equivalent half-baked thing I can think of from a company like Apple would be the Spotlight feature in Mac OS X, which performs so terribly as to be useless.

    Half-baked designs are why iPods are more popular than all those other, more complex players. They're also why I have no desire to buy any WinCE PDAs depite the half-baked feeling of modern Palm devices. Microsoft just happens to be another company that lacks vision in this space; it's hardly unique to them.

    --
    --
    Internet Explorer (n): Another bug -- that is, a feature that can't be turned off -- in Windows.
    1. Re:128kbits is terrible. by drewmca · · Score: 1

      I think that your usage is kind of an edge use case. most people who are going to use that feature will use it just like they do in iTunes and other applications: they'll just take what the machine gives them. They don't think to change the options, they just press or click the button that says "rip" and they're happy. I'm not saying that you're wrong, that it would be a good option, but I think the vast majority of people who would use this feature aren't concerned about the level of control you want. The question then is how much more effort would it have been to add the feature, and if it's not a lot, why didn't they do it. Of course, there's always the possibility this kind of thing could be added at a later date as part of a downloadable upgrade.

      Personally, I prefer to rip things to my ipod, then just plug the ipod in via the USB port. If I'm going to the trouble of ripping something, why not do it once so that I can use it everywhere (on the xbox, in the car, on the go, etc.?) The interface makes no distinction between songs on my ipod and songs on the hard drive.

    2. Re:128kbits is terrible. by SilentChris · · Score: 1

      I'm not really sure I understand your complaint. Or that you even understand your complaint.

      You can rip music to the Xbox 360 hard drive, yes. It would be incredibly dumb given the limited space, and that's why you find that option near the bottom of the list.

      Near the top of the list are options far more palatable. You can connect an iPod (or another MP3 player, or a PSP, or just a regular USB drive with music) right to the front of the Xbox. It'll play MP3, unprotected AACs, etc., whatever bitrate you want. It'll even decipher the iPod built-in database format (which Apple was ungracious enough not to license to anyone). You can also play this music in-games, just like music off the hard drive.

      If you don't like that approach, another option near the top is that you can play music off of any Windows PC in your house using the Media Connect software. That music can be housed on a NAS somewhere -- as long as you have some Windows box as the front-end it'll work. Again, any bitrate you want, play in-game/out-of-game/etc. There are also some 3rd-party apps for other OSes -- notably Mac has Connect360 (http://www.nullriver.com/index/products/connect36 0). And if you really want to go crazy, you can pick up a WLAN adapter and carry the Xbox 360 to any room in the house. As long as it can hit the network, you can play your godzilla music collection of 250GB+.

      So, what's the complaint here? The Xbox team provided a bunch of different ways to access huge libraries of music, in different formats, at different bitrates. Given the complexity of stuff like deciphering the iPod database and having a UI properly recognize all the ID3 tags of MP3s on a random USB drive (try it -- it does it really elegantly) it doesn't sound like a "half-baked" solution at all. They did their homework -- it's a solid solution.

    3. Re:128kbits is terrible. by Inoshiro · · Score: 1

      " I'm not really sure I understand your complaint. Or that you even understand your complaint.

      You can rip music to the Xbox 360 hard drive, yes.       "

      You don't. I'm talking about the Xbox. It's half-baked. I'm sure the same half-baked folks who made the Xbox rip at 128kbps have equalled crippled the Xbox 360 (from my limited time playing with it at a friend's place, pointless FWOOSHING menus comes to mind).

      They have improved the MP3 usage if what you say is true, but they should've had enough brains to get it right the first time.

      --
      --
      Internet Explorer (n): Another bug -- that is, a feature that can't be turned off -- in Windows.
    4. Re:128kbits is terrible. by SilentChris · · Score: 1

      So let me understand this correctly... your complaint has to do with the original Xbox, a 5-year old interface on a console that (at the time) was the first one to introduce custom soundtracks for gaming (and to this day is the only one to do this). That console ripped to 128 WMA which, like Apple's AAC, provides better sound quality at lower bitrates and worked in hundreds of games. Your complaint is that you should have been able to waste more space on the 8 GB hard drive.

      Kind of boneheaded, in my opinion.

      All things considered, the original Xbox did an admirable job. I think it's ludicrous to think they didn't have "enough brains" the first time, considering the feature worked more or less flawlessly and provided good sound quality. Think about the original iPod: easily broken physical clickwheel, constantly crashed, only 5 GB -- but enough about it worked right to spawn new hardware. No company gets a product completely perfect the first try.

      Not to mention, in between its launch and Xbox 360, they released the Music Mixer software which lets you play alternative sound formats at whatever bitrate you like off a nearby computer -- the same functionality that's offered in the 360. With the Xbox 360 they included that functionality and the ability to play music off just about any portable device you throw at it. Your complaint may have had some loose support back in 2001, but not in 2006.

      To be honest, looking at your signature, I think you just have a beef with Microsoft. Not surprising (this is Slashdot, after all), but I would be a little more open to the idea that a few people in every company know what they're doing. I have some coworkers that are diehard Mac freaks, hate Windows with a vengenance but bought Xbox 360s. When I asked why, they said "That's MS, this is Xbox. The Xbox team knows what they're doing." Given that you've only had a "limited time" with the 360, you might want to give it more of a chance. The design is really impressive.

  11. didn't change it by MoreNoiseThanSignal · · Score: 2, Interesting

    From the article:
    "we didn't want to change it; we didn't want to ruin it."
    uh... yeah. The core mechanic, maybe, but I'd say you can only loosely call the game counter-strike now. I find it funny that (I have been lead to believe) the japanese are pretty xenophobic when it comes to western games but a lot of the character designs are not only western but overtly caucasian. What's up with that?

    --
    abort, retry, fail?
  12. CS neo has school girls being raped by a tree by cttforsale · · Score: 0, Troll

    nuff said

  13. From the crayon and clay. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Well there's always the pen and ink style.