Bunk Camp - Apple Gets It Wrong?

An anonymous reader writes "CNET.com.au has posted a commentary that attempts to cut away the hype surrounding Boot Camp. From the article: 'Boot Camp will do little to coax Windows XP users into switching to Mac OS X. For this to happen, Apple needs to either license out OS X to all users -- not just Mac owners -- or support a true Mac virtualisation application.'"

Comments

FP?

[Chode2235]

I just got the iMac because of bootcamp. Now I will be able to play games (battlefield 2) and run some weird applications that I use. I think the author is missing the point, it is all about weaning users off of windows, not giving them another platform to run windows. I don't boot into windows unless I have to. Hopefullly I have to boot into windows less and less as time goes on.

Re:FP?

[ReluctantRefactorer]

It seems to me that if you play PC games a lot, you'll be booting into Windows more and more as time goes on, since what incentive is there to port PC games to OS X if you can run the PC version so easily on the Mac via BootCamp?

If BootCamp takes off, I predict the already small Mac-native games market will wither even further.

Re:FP?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hopefullly I have to boot into windows less and less as time goes on.

But what's the mechanism by which that happens? Instead of demanding games that run on Mac and effectively being part of an untapped market, you've conceded that people who really want to play games will get dual boot and run them under Windows. That's hardly a strategy aimed at bringing more games ton the Mac.

A more reasonable expectation is that as time goes on you'll have to boot into Windows more and more, because its share of the market is boosted even further by dual booters. I doubt this is only true of games either.

Re:FP?

[twistedsymphony]

Agreed... with boot camp out now I'm considering getting a Mac as my next machine.

I also dis-agree that this would make the mac game library smaller. Sure for a while you'll have Mac users booting into Windows for games and windows users running their OS on Mac hardware. But the reason we don't see games on Mac is because the OS's user base is so much smaller then windows. The only thing it would take to get more games onto OSX is more users... and stuff like this can only help to increase the user base. If the market has a choice of OSs and they lean towards OSX software when they have a choice of getting it for either. Games will follow because they just go to the lowest common denominator. Heck just look at the console market, PS2 gets EVERYTHING simply because it has the biggest userbase, it's certainly not the best in any other category.

Re:FP?

[fistfullast33l]

what incentive is there to port PC games to OS X if you can run the PC version so easily on the Mac via BootCamp?

This is definitely a slippery slope, but I think Apple still has the upper hand. They have shown in the past that they definitely are not willing to compromise just to make their users happy in the short run. They also are willing to drop support of a product just to get users to move to a newer version. Microsoft is just starting to learn this trick, but no one does it better than Apple. This is why there are still more PC's with Windows 98 installed than XP and very few Macs with OS9 installed than OSX. I think they'll wait a few months/years to get their sales up, and then cut out the rug and say, we don't support Windows any longer on our hardware. It's a very risky play but I wouldn't put it past Apple to do this.

Re:FP?

[samkass]

Here's the best analysis I've seen of it so far, written by Ryan Gordon, who's done a zillion Mac and Linux ports of games.

I personally don't think Boot Camp changes the economic equation at all yet. When it comes out of beta and if users are willing to buy a $150 "software dongle for games" (WinXP), then maybe Mac ports will start declining in revenue. On the other hand, if Apple can double or triple their market share by taking away the fear of switching, maybe we'll see more.

Re:FP?

[mdwh2]

They also are willing to drop support of a product just to get users to move to a newer version. Microsoft is just starting to learn this trick, but no one does it better than Apple. This is why there are still more PC's with Windows 98 installed than XP and very few Macs with OS9 installed than OSX.

I suspect that that's more to do with the fact the popularity of Macs has increased significantly since the release of OS X, where as the popularity of Windows 98 versus XP was relatively constant. The extra OS X Macs probably weren't people upgrading from MacOS 9.

I think they'll wait a few months/years to get their sales up, and then cut out the rug and say, we don't support Windows any longer on our hardware. It's a very risky play but I wouldn't put it past Apple to do this.

Possibly, but I don't think it's comparable. They've only done the jumps like 68k to PPC and MacOS to MacOS X by maintaining backwards compatibility. If they just remove support for Windows, without offering any alternative, then people may not be happy at no longer being able to run all those Windows applications and games they have.

Re:FP?

[timster]

The mechanism is that more people will have Macs, and perhaps most of them will prefer MacOS, and so they will prefer to run games in MacOS to avoid the hassle of rebooting. Over time they will prefer not to pay for upgrades to Windows if they only play games with it anyway. As this happens they will look for games in the Mac section of the store first, and that will create an economic incentive for Mac games.

Re:FP?

[mwvdlee]

His misconseptions rely on this single quote from TFA: "Does OS X really offer any applications that would entice me to purchase a new Mac and put up with the tedium of Boot Camp? I doubt it.".
To many currently Windows-dependant people (which includes me), OS X does indeed offer desirable functionality (which also includes me).

I'm not planning to upgrade my PC in the near future, but I know I'll atleast checkout the latest Apple offering when that time comes.

The whole article is based on the idea that people who don't like Mac OS X to begin with, would suddenly like it because of boot-camp. The truth is that this may help users who'd prefer OS X but are bound to Windows for some reason to make the switch gradually.

Re:FP?

[Midnight Thunder]

If you meant Battlefield 1942, then there is a solution to avoid the need to use Boot Camp: Battlefield 1942 for Mac. Aspyr has ported plenty of good games to the Mac. If you have a Mac and play games, then I would recommend supporting these guys, since the do a good job porting the games.

Re:FP?

[drb_chimaera]

Or of course he could in fact mean Battlefield 2, which is a) what he said, and b) not available on OSX, so would make sense as an example of a game he could play on a Mac running XP :)

Re:FP?

[cookiej]

Well, let's see...

iMac (lowest model) = $1,299.00 + Windows XP Home (not OEM or upgrade, if you want to do it legally... retail license) $199 = $1,498.00... ... Dell XPS 400 - $1259 + MacOSX $129 = $1,388

If you're going to get sticky about that whole "legal" thing, I guess you'd have to consider that it isn't legal to run OS X on anything except a Mac. So you're argument is pretty much done right there.

One fact the dude in the article missed completely is that by ADDING windows to the machine you can still get work done when Windows inevitably craps out. What can I do with my MacBook Pro that I couldn't with my AMD Laptop? Get things done. Does that count? The glaring difference between the amount of time I spend trying to make sure the MBP runs effectively and smoothly versus the amount of time the AMD took has got to be saving me at least three hours a week. Hell, just the fact I don't feel I have to save my work in 15 minute increments (because that BSOD is always just around the corner) is a timesaver.

For the AMD laptop, I used Norton for AV and Ad-Aware for spyware. I switched to Avast, then to the Onecare beta. I kept my drivers updated. I did the virus scan every week. I sent the laptop back twice for hardware replacement (which was always a hassle.) I wasn't just sitting back trolling for malware -- I actively worked at keeping the machine functioning well. Now, I'm simply more productive. When I want to deinstall a program, I just throw it away.... and it's GONE! No more Registry Bloat. No more crap from installed and then partially uninstalled apps. AND I have unix at my fingertips!

What made me consider the MBP was the fact that I got a Mini for testing. And it just worked. No hassles. I've had the MBP for awhile now and I can say that the amount of hassle this machne has been vs. the hassle the AMD was in the first few months is FAR less.

Re:FP?

[Noginbump]

You are absolutely correct. Back in the 80's, Commodore released the Commodore 128 that would boot into Commodore 64 mode and run apps (games) written for the Commodore 64. This was becuase of the pre-existing base of apps already written for the C64. What happened was nobody wrote new apps native for the 128 because they could cover all their bases with a C64 version. Because of this, the C128 didn't do well on the market. Why buy a C128 if everything is written for the cheaper C64?

Likewise, if I had to hire some Windows programmers and some Mac programmers to get two versions of an app out in six months. I would be better served to hire only Windows guys and get it out in three months.

Apple isn't stupid and they have to know this. So, I have to wonder if the Mac version of Office is going away and this is Apple's way of keeping a way to run Office.

Re:FP?

[Duncan3]

Reality check...

Only corporations and people without a teenage relative pay for Windows.

Always has been that way, always will.

Re:FP?

[lowrydr310]

How many of those dual-boot users running Windows will actually be running licensed versions?

Re:FP?

[bman08]

You forgot to include people who buy a PC in that category. That's most of the copies of windows, and the overwhelming majority of those are legit.

Re:FP?

[c_forq]

I was thinking I was going to rip this apart as I have a legit WinXP CD and key, but then I remember that I obtained that WinXP CD and key from a corporation. I never paid for it, a company I worked for did. Now I think the only flaw is all the people who buy Dells just happen to have a license for the first copy of Windows they got (usually all upgrade are from their teenage relative or that guy they know who is a floor manager at ABC Warehouse).

Re:FP?

[alcmaeon]

Frankly, I think computer gaming is going the way of the dodo. Consoles are killing the computer gaming market. There are a few games that can be played better on a computer (strategy games come to mind) but most games can be played just as well on a console and the limited controllers in most cases force the programmers to be more creative and make games with better gaming experiences.

Graphics are theoretically much better on a computer than on the consoles, but I have been astounded with the qualilty of games on PS2, xbox, and GameCube. I never cease to be surprised how good games can look on these consoles that have a fraction of the graphics horsepower of my PC.

Then there is the fact that when I have a game that looks really good on the PC, it still suks because it is such a lousy play.

The benefit to Apple of dual-booting XP and OSX is that it manages perceptiions. People don't want to buy a Mac and get stuck nto being able to play their games, or use a theoretical piece of "essential" software. I suspect that for the vast majority of the users, this is just a perception, but now Apple can say "Hey, XP sucks, but if you really, really need it, you can run it on our hardware." Then people buy a Mac, boot XP a couple of times because it is cool, and then never boot it again.

in my view, an Apple brand monitor with component inputs for hooking up a game console would be more useful than XP dual booting for "Mac gaming."

Re:FP?

[IntlHarvester]

that worked so well for OS/2, let's do it for the mac!

Actually it did work for OS/2:
OS/2 Marketshare (peak): 10-15%
Mac Marketshare (current): 2%

Oh wait.
If Apple could somehow "fail" like OS/2, while quadrupling their sales, I think they would interested.

Re:FP?

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

I don't see what's to prefer about OS X if you're already familiar or prepared to use XP for playing games.

Hmm, lets see, I can buy the Windows version, plus a copy of Windows, plus go through a complex install process, and shut down the 15 applications I always have running and reboot to play a game, or I can buy the mac version and just run it. Yeah, I certainly see no reason to go with the latter.

...but it blows for gaming if for no other reason than the dearth of titles compared to Windows.

Whooosh! That was the sound of the previous poster's point whizzing over your head. Will the market demand more games on OS X? Your reasoning, no because there aren't enough games on OS X.

Doubly so because a lot of older titles will be PPC and must be emulated.

Which will make no difference within a year when said emulation is faster on current hardware than it was native on old hardware.

But more importantly, anyone intent on playing games would never buy the current Intel Macs.

I see, so that is why no one ports games to OS X now. No one would who is interested in games would buy a mac. ...Except there is a market, and it is quite profitable. Believe it or not, most game sales are to casual gamers, who own a handful of titles, not to "extreme gamers" who live for games. They just want to pick out something fun, and being native for OS X is a big plus if they have a mac. The more people have macs, the bigger this market gets and the more games it will get. Thus, if bootcamp increases the adoption of Macs, more games will come to the platform, but since such a tiny market is willing to go to the expense and time of using it just for games, it probably won't affect the game market otherwise.

Both the MacBook and the Mac Mini (the only Intel based systems thus far) have low-end / mobile GPUs and the CPUs are hardly cutting edge.

And what percentage of regular PC users that buy games have "cutting edge" graphics cards? My guess is somewhere around .5%. Sorry, but as much as you'd like to think otherwise, hardcore gamers are not a big market segment.

Re:FP?

[generic-man]

I can't use the CD that came with my Dell to install Windows on a Mac. Virtually every computer today comes with a restore CD, not a Windows install disc. You need a full install CD to put Windows on a Mac, and that will set you back $200 or more. (You could get an OEM version, but to make that legal wouldn't you also have to buy a piece of hardware and use it with your Mac somehow?)

Re:FP?

[Jeffrey Baker]

Sim City 4 never worked right on Windows, either, so don't blame Aspyr too quickly. I bought the deluxe version of the game for Windows, installed it on my bog-standard computer running Windows 2000, and it just didn't do anything. If you double-clicked the application icon, absolutely nothing happened. That game was an embarrassment to the craft of computer programming.

Re:FP?

[mcmaddog]

You're obviously not speaking from hands on knowledge. People always say that Apple ignores backward compatibility and MS's problems are from it's insistance on providing backward compatibility, but this isn't necessarily true for either one. When Apple switched to the PPC platform almost all 68K programs ran without any problems and often saw an improvement in speed despite running in emulation. When Apple switched to OS X most OS 7/8/9 software continued to run without problems (and even some software going back to the 80's still worked.) Apple waited 3 years before having Macs that couldn't boot OS 9 directly and 5 years to stop pre-installing Classic on new Macs, but still support it under 10.4. When I upgraded my Win98 machine to 2K most of my games that were one or more years old couldn't be played and while I don't own either XBox, but from what I've been reading MS's support for XBox games on the 360 is hit or miss.

  With Apple's switch to Intel the PPC Macs will still be supported under the next OS expected to be coming in December/January which is another 18-24 months of direct support plus 18-24 months security updates after the next-next OS has been released. People buying the Intel Macs are able to run most PPC programs under Rosetta while waiting for the programmers to release universal binary versions.

  Unlike PC manufacturers, Apple tends to support new technologies first and drop legacy hardware sooner, but they can still be used as add-on cards or through USB/Firewire.

Re:FP?

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

Utter bullshit. By complex install process you mean, hit setup, choose a folder and hit next a few times. Without reboots. Most games run just fine with other apps going, assuming you have the memory for doing that. My system runs games just fine even with apps like Azureus running in the background.

You're an idiot. If I'm running OS X, and have 15 applications open it is a huge pain in the ass to shutdown all my apps and reboot into Windows to play a game. If you actually bothered to read my previous post you'd see I wasn't talking about running Windows all the time on an Apple machine because basically no one wants to do that. Installing a second OS in dual boot configuration, even with bootcamp is beyond the abilities of the average user, who can't even install Windows in the first place. Thus, the number of people who will be using it, compared to the total market is insignificant.

People don't buy systems hoping that some day at some unspecified point in the future, the platform will become popular enough to make it useful for the reason they bought it for in the first place.

You're still an idiot. People who want to play games generally buy a console. People who buy a mac want to do general purpose computing. They may want to play games as part of that, but to claim a significant portion of the market would buy any sort of computer just to play games is absurd.

As for most PCs, I'd say anyone intent on even casual gaming would choose something considerably more powerful than anything you'd see in a MacBook or Mini.

I'd say you're full of shit. The average PC used to play games today has a 1.2 Ghz processor and a 16 mb graphics card. That is the middle of the road machine of the average game buyer. Your perception of what the market has is so skewed by your "gamer" point of view that you can't grasp that you are not the market. Most people just don't blow $500 on a new graphics card every year. They buy a new computer with fairly cheap graphics capabilities every three years and give their current one to their kids. The market is made up of 1-5 year old machines. The average brand new computer purchased today and used to play games has a 64 mb card and less than 5% of machines purchased have more than 128mb according to numbers compiled by several game development programs at major universities. I just can't stress this enough, but you have no clue what the market looks like. Game developers do.

Re:FP?

[Xypheri]

interesting fact... a $2 power cable counts as "OEM Hardware" ;)

Re:FP?

[porcupine8]

Until a year or two ago, whenever a website didn't work in Firefox, if you complained you'd get something from the webmaster saying to use IE for that site.

Now that 10-15% of internet users are using Firefox, suddenly more and more sites are actually making their sites compatible with multiple browsers - the same ones that a year ago were telling you to fire up IE to see their site.

Yes, I still have IE, and I could use it to view a site that won't open in Firefox or Safari - but I don't want to. Webmasters have realized that we don't want to use IE, and now that there are enough of us to make a dent in their traffic, they are no longer telling us that we must do something we don't want to do in order to load their site. Because 9 times out of 10, I just won't use the site.

I see something similar happening in the next couple of years for Macs. People will buy them because they have the option of booting into Windows. But once they get hooked on OS X, they won't want to use Windows if they don't have to. If something requires them to boot into windows, they'll whine about it and in some cases not buy the software if there's something comparable available that doesn't require rebooting. If Mac marketshare can make it above 10%, that's a big enough chunk of users that companies won't want to risk chasing them away by making them do annoying things like reboot to use their software. Even games - I'm sure that there will be people who will say "This better be a really fucking amazing game if I'm gonna boot into Windows for it."

Re:FP?

[Ragnarrokk]

Not true, games are seen differently.

Let me explain, I'm a teenager, I have teenage geek friends, and XP is abhorrently pirated to no end. Hell, most of the people I know have the XP corp. key MEMORISED. There's a reason for this. They build a lot of computers, and they have to reformat a lot. I'm not meaning their machines, but you know how it is. Friends/relatives/schools always call on "that computer whizz" to fix their machines, and it's mortally wounded with a backup and reformat the only sane course of surgical success.

Most geeks don't have the heart to tell their grandmother that a new windows copy is going to cost £130 (price checked on ebuyer) and they're not going to tell them to use Linux because they'll never manage, having only just mastered their left mouse buttons.

Windows is seen as an annoying necessity to run certain apps and games. It's £130 for a terrible but essential product, and it's felt that there's no alternative. For the things they want to do with their computers, there isn't an alternative and as a result there's disdain for Microsoft. Windows is seen as an overpriced arm lock, so no one has trouble pirating it. Partly, people ENJOY that it hurts Microsoft because they have a particularly high disdain for their products and practices. Whether this is ethically correct is another discussion.

Games are entirely different. You don't HAVE to buy it before everything else, and teenagers LIKE games, and want to support the games they do like. There is the limiting factor that to play online with an illegal copy is difficult in comparison to loading some .bin files with daemon tools, but even with purely single player games like Oblivion, which my friends downloaded before it came out here in the UK, still bought it ON RELEASE DAY to make sure the staff will get off their throne of success and will damn well make a sequel.

In short,
Games: A fun product we can choose to support as it brings us entertainment.
Windows: A terrible overpriced product we are forced to pay through our noses for, only to have it accuse us of being criminals and die slowly whatever we do, while limiting competition through proprietary means.

It's not a case of. "If we can pirate it, we will.". Believe it or not, teens do have morals.

``Ragnarok

Re:FP?

[gig]

> I think they'll wait a few months/years to get their sales up, and then cut out the rug and say,
> we don't support Windows any longer on our hardware.

I think it is much more likely that they will fully support Windows XP for quite some time but won't support Vista. They can cannibalize XP, but compete with Vista. It is possible for Apple to create a Mac OS X v10.5 Leopard that is better at running Windows XP applications than Windows Vista is.

I think what Apple will do over the next few years with Intel/Windows is just like what they did in a few years ago with PowerPC/Mac OS Classic. From their perspective, it is just another legacy system to adopt like a library so you can run the applications.

The biggest drag about switching from Windows to Mac can be upgrading all of your applications all at once. If you can buy a Mac and keep running all of your old apps, then you can upgrade or replace each application at the end of its upgrade cycle, for example replacing Photoshop v9 for Windows with Photoshop v10 for Mac when v10 is released instead of buying v9 for Mac in between. Also it can take about a year for someone to find an upgrade or replacement app for every last little thing as they switch their primary environment from Windows to Mac and if they can keep running their old apps during that time it is much easier on them.

A big reason Apple doesn't want to sell OS X

[elrous0]

The reason Apple doesn't want to sell OS X to PC users (aside from the obvious ties with their more lucrative hardware business) is that OS X simply wouldn't be as stable or bulletproof in the PC world as it has been in the Mac world.

The big secret is that OS X's stability is based largely on the fact that Apple makes all the decisions on hardware configurations and certification for themselves. In the PC world, XP must be built for an infinite number of possible combinations of hardware components--and hence much of its problems with stability, reliability, etc. For Apple to duplicate this would be very difficult, expensive, and would likely produce results no better (and probably even worse) than XP.

If OS X users want to see the "blue screen of death," just *try* and use an OS that has to be built for an infinite combination of hardware setups, as opposed to a OS built by the same company that makes the hardware.

-Eric

Re:A big reason Apple doesn't want to sell OS X

[The Warlock]

I love how we always hear "the big secret is Apple has full control of the hardware" even though this "big secret" is "revealed" (usually more than once) every goddamn time an OSX article gets posted.

(sidenote: my FreeBSD install is pretty fucking stable on commodity PC hardware, why wouldn't OSX be?)

Re:A big reason Apple doesn't want to sell OS X

[drsmithy]

Linux runs on tons more platforms and configurations than Windows does, and it has never had a problem with stability as far as I'm aware.

There are no shortage of stability problems with Linux when you get into the crappier end of the hardware scale, just like Windows (as I have been reminded over the last week losing more hair to machines with VIA chipsets).

MS isn't stable, because they don't care about stability

Windows on well made hardware, and with good drivers, is extremely stable. If your Windows installation is not stable, Windows is not the problem - it's either broken hardware or bad drivers.

Re:A big reason Apple doesn't want to sell OS X

[hcdejong]

Linux has one advantage: many of its developers work for free. Apple would have to pay an army of developers to replicate this effort (mainly to write and test drivers for every piece of obscure hardware under the sun). This'll cost a boatload of money, and will require a Microsoft-sized organisation. Apple simply isn't big enough to pull this off.

Also, Apple will have to do this *before* they start selling the OS to the 'generic PC' market. People will expect OSX Generic to 'just work' like it does on Apple's own computers.

Re:A big reason Apple doesn't want to sell OS X

[suv4x4]

"Linux runs on tons more platforms and configurations than Windows does, and it has never had a problem with stability as far as I'm aware. The biggest problem with Linux is drivers"

So what you just said is despite drivers causing the stability issues in Windows, Linux doesn't have that problem, since it doesn't have a lot of drivers to run it with in first place.

Good point...

Re:A big reason Apple doesn't want to sell OS X

[WinterSolstice]

Actually, I disagree.

The biggest problem with Linux is not drivers, but software. Linux is simply a pain in the butt to use. I have on my desk at work right now three machines - a PPC Mac Mini, an Intel MacBook Pro, and an IBM T42 (running Fedora core 4) - I was able to get all of my work applications running on the Mini with no issues at all. I was able to get all but 2 applications running on my MacBook with no issues ( the remaining two are driving me nuts ), however, I was only able to 2 of my apps running on Linux. I am not a total linux novice (indeed, I admin Solaris and Linux servers, and I have run Linux since Corel, Caldera, and RedHat 6.x). Unfortunately, the only apps I could get to work were the easy ones - SAP GUI and OO.o. Those are fairly obvious... the whole rest of my stuff requires a windows virtualization in order to run.

Dual-booting Windows/OSX will ease the transition between OSs as much as dual-booting Windows/Linux does - but I think that argument is already obvious. The main difference is this: Apple is a *hardware* company. IBM would be an idiot to only sell OS/2 on IBM hardware, and Apple has chosen to let you run anything you want on Apple hardware. They probably don't care very much if you run OSX or Windows, just so long as you run it on APPLE hardware.

As for stability - I think Apple's OSX is stable for the same reason that AIX, Solaris, and VMS are stable - well written code for a well known hardware platform. I have always disagreed with the 'PC mentality' that you should run anything on anything. It's neat and all to hack Linux onto your machine of choice, but aside from the 'because it's there' factor, there is no reason to. If anything, MS should be desperately trying to produce a machine that runs Windows with perfect stability - like, say, an XBOX or something. Something that they can hold up and say will never crash, never have viruses, etc. Probably something with DRM built into the hardware, optimized for displaying blue ( just kidding :) ), and widely toted to be 'linux proof'. They would sell quite a lot of them if they could convince the RIAA/MPAA/etc that they had created the perfect hacker-proof machine for home users. Heck, I might even buy one. All they would really need to do is put the OS on firmware, lock the el torito boot extension, prevent non-signed binaries from even executing, and require you to subscribe to Live for firmware updates. Perhaps even simply prohibit firmware updates at all - just say "This machine runs Windows x". Have a trade-up for the next version. If the machine actually *worked* people would gladly pay XBox 360 prices for it, then do it again just to run the next version. Heck, why isn't there MS Office for XBox 360? Is someone asleep at the wheel there? How perfect would that be? I could just walk into Target, then walk out with a machine that would (out of the box) plug into a monitor (DVI), plug into a TV, handle any of the modern USB peripherals, play DVDs, surf the web, and do 90% of the 'work' stuff without ever having a virus? Considering the popularity of Live CDs I suspect that a Windows Office 360 Live CD for the Xbox 360 would be a huge hit. Of course, you'd need to subscribe to Live or something for backups - but hey, even better, right?

-WS

Re:A big reason Apple doesn't want to sell OS X

[Tim C]

A common user sees at least an order of magnitude difference in the frequency of lockups.

Bullshit. Got any proof of that?

Windows crashes regularly

Not on any PC I use, or have used for the last 6 years or so. Yes, the 9x line is unstable, but the NT line is not, especially since 2k. My XP Pro machine at home locks up about as often as my linux box - which is to say almost never.

Re:A big reason Apple doesn't want to sell OS X

[fireboy1919]

Windows on well made hardware, and with good drivers, is extremely stable. ...as long as you don't connect to the internet, or run any apps on it, or use any devices (even well made ones) that use the same portion of the kernelspace at once.

These aren't problems you see in Linux and OSX. The difference is that Windows doesn't do a good job of implementing levels of trust. What I don't expect is that they'll be able to bring down my OS, or any portion of it, when they do.

Further, I expect that drivers written by Microsoft or that are Microsoft certified shouldn't have any compatibility problems. Otherwise, why did they get certified?

When I plug my MS certified USB storage device into my computer while I also plug in my MS certified USB soundcard, I can expect my sound to stop working, and if I'm very unlucky it may also crash my computer.

Can I blame Windows for this? Absolutely. All of the devices involved are MS Certified and USB certified, so Windows shouldn't have any trouble sorting these things out. Even if it does, it shouldn't crash altogether. The USB subsystem shouldn't have the privileges to crash the rest of the OS. That's a design flaw.

This is just a single example that is typical of what you see in Windows, and the logic behind why I say that Windows itself is not stable. There are many, many others.

Re:A big reason Apple doesn't want to sell OS X

[Soothh]

I understand your point, but that is no longer valid.

Look at how many platforms linux and bsd run on, they are pretty stable.

Re:A big reason Apple doesn't want to sell OS X

[ezavada]

The reason Apple doesn't want to sell OS X to PC users (aside from the obvious ties with their more lucrative hardware business) is that OS X simply wouldn't be as stable or bulletproof in the PC world as it has been in the Mac world.

Nonsense. The reason Apple doesn't want to sell OS X to PC users is because they make much more money selling hardware than software. Apple is in business to make a profit (and fortunately they seem to believe that producing a great product is the right way to do that). They aren't going to intentionally do things that reduce their profits.

Don't forget that Apple has already been down the road of licensing the OS. It nearly killed them. People starting buying Power Computing machines because they ran Mac OS as well or better than Apple hardware, and significantly cut into their sales -- sure they were getting OS license fees, but at the same time it was causing Apple's market share to plumet. Even though between Apple and Power Computing the Mac OS market share was growing, the press saw Apple's market share going down and started sounding the death knells. This helped convince developers and consumers that Apple was irrelevant and (combined with many other factors, including increasing quality of Windows) they were in real trouble. It finally took Microsoft making a deal with Apple to keep producing Office for the next 5 years to reduce the hemoraging enough for a turnaround (which started with killing the licensing and bring out the iMac).

There are some differences today, Apple is hip because of the iPod and OS X, but it would still be a really tough battle to get to the point where OS X licenses replaced the lost revenue from hardware sales. That not to say that this could never happen, but I would say Apple would have to have 10%+ market share and growing before it would be worth the risk.

Re:A big reason Apple doesn't want to sell OS X

[NutscrapeSucks]

It's also more of a Big Lie nowdays, as Macs are based on the same Intel chipsets that Dell and every other major PC vendor uses. There's nothing mysterious or exotic about their innards.

When the "leaked betas" of OS X were circulating, people found they had little troubles running OS X stabley on pretty much any Intel PC from the last year or two. Which is only 70% of PCs sold.

The entire argument is a hangover from the 68K/NuBus days, when Apple really did build an exotic machine.

Anecdotal evidence

[multiOSfreak]

This is purely my own anecdotal experience on the matter, but I've already talked to nearly a dozen X86/Windows PC owners that told me that because of the ability to boot XP, they are now heavily leaning towards buying a Mac Mini or other Apple gear as their next computer.

Re:Anecdotal evidence

[LordNimon]

Ditto. My mom was going to buy a PC because of a single Windows app she needed to run. She was considering getting a Mac and running VirtualPC, but I knew it would be slow so I was uncertain whether it would really be a good idea. However, thanks to Boot Camp, she is definitely now going to buy a Mac.

Re:Anecdotal evidence

[CastrTroy]

Same here. The Mac mini is what a lot of people are looking for. A small, silent computer, that doesn't get in the way. I've been thinking of buying one too. I'm kind of tired of my computer being loud, and in the way, I don't have that much living space, and my current tower doesn't really have that much that a Mac Mini doesn't. I'd probably be perfect happy with a Mac Mini, and maybe 1 or 2 external drives

Virtualization is probably in Apple's pipeline

[Anonymous Coward]

Someone on here had posted a link to a company that was working on such a product and it wouldn't suprise me if Apple does the same thing just in time for Vista's launch.

Nothing to see here, folks, please move along...

[Jim in Buffalo]

That article was written by someone who hasn't been using a Mac lately. Phrases like "I doubt it" and "my Windows machine" are a dead giveaway. Let's hear from someone who knows what he's talking about.

Well, obviously.

[KDR_11k]

Sounds right to me. I wouldn't buy a new system that'd end up forcing me to reboot if I want to access the other half of my applications (and the way it is now I wouldn't boot into OSX in first place). Hell, if I wanted dualbooting there's enough Linux distros for every taste and those don't require completely new hardware to run on. Until I can run all of the applications I use on the same OS I'm not switching.

Re:Well, obviously.

[Antimatter3009]

Well then you're not who they're targeting. If you see yourself buying a Mac and then running half of your applications in Windows, then yes, Boot Camp is useless. But a lot of people find OSX to be attractive and would love to use it primarily, but cannot be without a few critical apps that they use every so often (games are the most obvious). Those are the people that Boot Camp was created for, because now they can make the switch and not lose anything.

Re:Well, obviously.

[Bob 4knee]

When I first saw the boot camp announcements, I thought "Nice. Won't effect me, but might sell some more computers". A couple of days later, I realized that it probably will effect me. We've got a biege G3 that was new 8 years ago, which is still the only computer that belongs to the house. I've got a dual boot XP/Fedora box in the basement that I use to mimic the set up that my students use. It's not even connected to the internet. I use my laptop (Powerbook) whenever I'm home, but the wife and kid are stuck with the G3. We've been thinking about buying a new one for about two years. It keeps coming back to the fact that neither adult cares for windows, but of the kids games (school house rock, not GTA) half claim to run on OS-X, but all claim to run on XP.

If we bought a WinTel box, it would be booted into Linux for the adults and we'd have to reboot for the kids games. If we bought an OS-X box the adults would be happy with it (I'd have my precious command line, the wife would have her preferred Mac gui), and we'd just limit ourselves to games that worked on OS-X. The wife isn't thrilled with that option (she's the one that has to research and buy the games), I'm not thrilled with paying the MS tax so I can run Linux, so we haven't moved on this for over two years.

Now that boot-camp is here/coming to 10.5 it's a no brainer. We'll get an Intel based Mac. If a game is so good that we've just got to get it, and it only runs on XP, the kids can boot XP occaisonally.

Bunk

[pdc]

Apple don't need to get people to switch to Mac OS X; they need to get them to buy Apple's computers.

Supporting Windows makes it easier for people to decide to try a Mac, because they don't have to worry about losing familiar applications like regedt32 and minesweeper. Apple hopes that they will then discover that they don't need Windows after all.

See http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog00000000 52.html for a discussion

Re:Bunk

[Tim C]

Apple hopes that they will then discover that they don't need Windows after all.

And even if they don't decide that, they've still bought a Mac...

Re:Bunk

[waif69]

Apple is first and foremost a hardware company, they just happen to have a well designed stable OS. Design is something that Apple is known for and they do know how to make good looking machines for their time. No big PC manufacturer does that as well. Boot Camp is for getting people to buy a mac and then find out that if they use OS X more than XP, they will have greater stability without having to give up their precious games or legacy apps that won't run on or be ported to OS X or flavor of *nix.

Re:Bunk

[Angostura]

You're not factoring in the applications.

I originally bought a Mac because I wanted to tinker with Unix and because I wanted to edit family movies and burn to DVD.

The iLife bundle, including iPhoto, Garageband and iWeb are bundled with new Macs and make the machine a nifty appliance. Oh, and it runs a nicer version of Office than Windows (bar Outlook).

So there is plenty to give tinkerers instant gratification.

Compare that with setting up a dual boot Linux machine. I did that once, to play with. Never actually did anything with it though since I didn't have the time to get it properly configured.

It will however...

[TERdON]

convince some users that use (or want to use) both (because they're forced to because of software availability etc) to get rid of their PCs. Not having to buy two computers means they can spend more money on the Apple hardware.

Also, it will be a safe retreat for some one buying a Mac only to find out they didn't like it. Even though you're not totally convinced that you'll like OS X, you always have the possibility to install Windows XP on it instead.

It's Not The Applications That Matter

[mudbogger]

FTA:Does OS X really offer any applications that would entice me to purchase a new Mac and put up with the tedium of Boot Camp? I doubt it.

It's not necessarily the applications that will persuade people. He should look at the ipod -- is that the only mp3 player out there or anywhere close to the cheapest? People want Apple's because of the trend and the way the hardware looks.

Re:It's Not The Applications That Matter

[EvilSS]

What attracts me to Apple (as a windows user no less) is OS X. Period. Yea, the hardware looks nice but really I could care less. OS X is a very good OS. Take that away and put OS 9 back on and I wouldn't even consider using one.
 
  As far as OS X on non-Mac hardware, well, that would be a dream come true. Not for home users, but for use in business on standardized white boxes from Dell/HP. It's a pipe dream, I know, but it would be nice.

who cares if apple sells more copies of osx?

[foQ]

Last time I heard, Steve Jobs said something like "We are, and always will be, a hardware company." Now I'm not saying that Boot Camp will sell more hardware, but I don't think anybody expects Boot Camp to help sell more copies of OS X. Can you even buy an Intel Mac without OS X? I doubt it.

Everybody has an opinion

[AugstWest]

But does Slashdot have to post them all?

Really, we haven't thought of this here on /.

We haven't had dozens of threads debating this very topic already.

Can we please beat this dead horse a little more?

Re:Everybody has an opinion

[downrightamazed]

I agree: I really enjoy using Apple's products, and I think this is getting ridiculous. To be fair, Slashdot is far from the only news source — online or otherwise — that's flogging the bejeezus out of this. The Apple advocate in me thinks the attention is great as it's a sign that once again Apple is the company that's doing new and nifty things that get peoples' attention (or at least they're doing things that get attention, and the newness and niftiness can be debated), but on the other hand the whole Boot Camp foofaraw just keeps coming down to lots of people yelling at each other about what they think the product should be or do, or what they wish it was. *shrug* It's like anything else, some people are going to think it's dumb, some will think it's really useful. I'm one of the latter; I'm a developer and I don't want to have separate machines for running all the MS stuff if I can at all avoid it, and I've had some issues trying to run all the 2005/.NET 2.0 products (SQL Server, VS, and c., and c.) in a virtual PC, so this is something that will work well for me. For people who want to swap quickly in and out of, say, Outlook in Windows and Photoshop on Mac, well then yeah, BC is dumb.

Let it go people, it's just software. Use it or don't, then be quiet.

It's not about OS X

[ClosedSource]

Apple isn't in the OS X business, they are in the computer hardware business. If somebody buys an Apple instead of a Dell so they can run an occasional Mac application, Boot Camp is a success.

Of course, many people want to see Windows market share decrease, but that's their agenda, not Apple's.

Missing the point

[Wellington Grey]

I think he misses the fact that some people want to move to OS X but are held back by one must-have application. Boot camp is perfect for these people. My mom, for example, really wants to switch to apple after I let her use my ibook, but she has one program that she needs to occasionally use for work that holds her back. Now she can switch, no problems.

-Grey

No hardware lockin

[jridley]

I was just arguing with a friend who happens to be an Apple employee about this. I was toying with the idea of building an OS X x86 compatible PC using the HCL on sourceforge. He said that by doing this I was stealing from his livelihood.

I said "No, I'm perfectly willing to buy OS X. Put it in the stores and I'll pay for it. Keep it locked to hardware and you won't see a dime from me. APPLE is stealing from your livelihood by not selling me what I want."

I don't want to buy hardware. I have hardware. I want my hardware to be fungible and able to run any OS I care to put on it this week. I want to be able to choose what I want from the vast variety of what's available, and not have to choose from just what Apple thinks will satisfy me. I'm not going to buy hardware that's priced above market for no reason that I care about (I don't care how pretty it looks, and I don't care about some (mythical, as far as I can tell) higher level of reliability. I just want to run the software and OS that I decide to run.

It's sometimes said that PC users buy machines to run applications; Apple users buy machines to run the OS. I think that Apple is afraid to put the OS on the market standalone, because in lieu of hardware sales income, they would be charging more than MS charges for Windows, and they'd draw comparisons.

That seems fine to me. It is a better OS, so it's OK for it to cost more.

Apple has to some extent maintained the "ease of use" paradigm in the same way that GUIs are easy to use; they restrict choice. If you give people less choice, they are less confused. If they want to enter the larger market, they need to figure out how to continue to deliver their historic strengths while moving into a position of giving the users the wider variety of choices that they are used to in other OSs.

Re:No hardware lockin

[birge]

You sound like a spoiled child. Apple doesn't owe you the ability to do what you want with their IP, and they have good reasons (elucidated in many other posts) for not wanting to have to support their OS on the infinite number of hardware combinations possible.

And you betray a infantile understanding of ethics and morality if you think not getting your way is justification for violating somebody else's IP and wishes for their property.

Re:No hardware lockin

[Anonymous Coward]

Tough Shit. (tm)

Re:No hardware lockin

[mgblst]

I said "No, I'm perfectly willing to buy OS X. Put it in the stores and I'll pay for it. Keep it locked to hardware and you won't see a dime from me. APPLE is stealing from your livelihood by not selling me what I want."
 
I know exactly how you feel. I said the same thing to a mate of mine who had just bought back a new games machine from Japan. I said, "No, I'm perfectly willing to buy this from you. Put it up for sale and I will pay for it. Keep it locked in your house, and you won't see a dime from me, I will steal it.
 
Rusty analogy sure, but your making the point that they (ie your mate) should suffer if they don't do something you want them to. That is your justification for what you want to do, knowing that your mate will in someway be affected.

Re:No hardware lockin

[WheresMyDingo]

"APPLE is stealing from your [an Apple employee's] livelihood by not selling me what I want [Mac OS X for generic PC hardware]."

In a world where Apple sold you what you want, that friend could likely be out of a job in a few years as Apple starts bleeding like they did in 1997 when they last licensed their OS to third-party manufacturers.

Imagine someone who wants to run Mac OS X in this hypothetical world. That person can:

1. Buy a Mac, or
2. Buy a copy of OS X for generic PC hardware

In case (1), Apple gets, say, $500 profit. In case (2), Apple gets, say, $100 profit. For Apple to make money in a world like this, you'd think Apple would need people to choose option (2) over option (1) by more than a 5:1 margin. You can speculate on whether that would be a fair bet.

But what are the costs to Apple that erode that simple 5:1 formula? Here are the two biggies that come to mind:

• Direct confrontation with Microsoft
• Supporting OS X on generic PC hardware

So when you're done with that, what would the bias have to be for Apple to seriously consider it? 10:1?

There's an excellent blog post by John Gruber at Daringfireball.net entitled "Several Asinine and/or Risky Ideas Regarding Apple's Strategy That Boot Camp Does Not Portend" about this, where I got some of these ideas from.

Re:No hardware lockin

[frogstar_robot]

If I have a boxed copy of OS X and a sales receipt for it then I'll cordially invite Steve Jobs to roll the EULA into a cigar shape, bend over, and gently insert.

Re:No hardware lockin

[jridley]

I didn't say I'd actually gone out and stolen the OS. I said I *wanted* to run the OS. But I won't, because I can't get it legally. I'm not going to do it. I'd like to be running OS X but I don't want to buy even more hardware than I already have.

I realize they don't HAVE to sell it to me. But it seems to me that if a company has a product that people want, they should put a price on it and make it available. If there are externalities to selling the product separately then they should alter the price accordingly.

If they ever make it available, I'll buy it. If they don't, I won't run OS X. Pretty simple.

Re:No hardware lockin

[jridley]

And you betray a infantile understanding of ethics and morality if you think not getting your way is justification for violating somebody else's IP and wishes for their property.

Did I say I'd DONE it? No, I said I WANTED to BUY OS X. I'm not going to move to Mac because honestly I'm not convinced that it can take over all my jobs. I'd like to play with it. If it turns out that OS X can do everything I need, I probably will buy a Mac eventually. But I'm not going to go out and buy a piece of hardware that's locked to an OS that I'm not sure I want to move to.

Therefore, as I said, Apple gets not a dime from me, and I don't get OS X.

Re:No hardware lockin

[GoatPigSheep]

It sounds like OS X might not be for you. If you want a free and open OS that is not tied to specific hardware and that lets you use whatever UI you want to get your work down, then stick with Linux, FreeBSD, or whatever else floats your boat.

If you want a stable and mature OS that is not completely open, made to be used with specific hardware, but more open and easily integrated with free software than windows, then get OS X. Generally, and this is still as true now as it was before, apple computers are designed with a foccuss on multimedia content creation. It is only recently with the advent of OS X that the geek crowd as really jumped on the apple bandwagon as well. Apple's pro product lines are aimed at people who want a computer that is stable and easy to support, and as a result they are more restrictive when it comes to hardware choice.

As someone who has done a lot of hardware troubleshooting, Apple computers are much easier to deal with due to the fact that they can be narrowed down to specific models. A bit of searching on the web for people who have had similar issues with the same model can mean that diagnosing problems can take very little time. Compared to the PC world where an infinite amount of components can be mixed, diagnosing problems can take an order of magnitude longer and be much more expensive.

To top it off, Macs have excellent RESALE VALUE, so if you get one and don't like it, it would be very easy to sell it off.

Re:No hardware lockin

[jcr]

They also happen to have an excellent piece of software that I do want. But they won't sell it to me.

Sure they will, they just won't do it under your terms. That doesn't entitle you to steal it, sunshine.

-jcr

Bunk Camp? This guy got off at the wrong exit...

[Shimatta1]

The major premise of the article is rather flawed; Boot Camp wasn't about "luring" in Windows users. Most of those users don't have a choice (e.g. work restrictions) or don't realize that an OS doesn't have to be unstable and/or vulnerable; they think that it's "just the way it is".

What Boot Camp does is remove the barrier to adoption. There are a number of Windows users who would like to switch, but need access to Software X or don't want to give up Game Y, and don't want to maintain two separate computers for those tasks. Now, they don't have to. Sure, rebooting is a pain, but for someone who wants to, say, use their MacBook Pro as a windows machine at work, and as a mac at home, well, they can do that easily enough.

Sure, Virtualization would be better, and I've heard (rumors, rumors, mind you) that it's coming. But Boot Camp, by removing the barrier to switching, is a very good transition state, and an acceptable end state, if Apple chose to leave it at that.

The blue Shimatta1 needs food, badly.

wrong.com.com.com

[clevershark]

Let's remember some of the other things that CNET (the .com.com.com people) thought were "sure things" back in the day -- portals, push (think Pointcast), the Thin Client, etc. For people who only cover tech they're remarkably clueless of the world outside of wintel (and, more often than not, inside of it as well).

Warning: FUD troll

[Quiet_Desperation]

I'm no expert

Expert?! You're barely multi-celled!

Man, I miss Duckman.

Re:How long

[hcdejong]

It's already happened. Parallels has a beta out right now.

not true -- i'm proof

[boxlight]

Boot Camp will do little to coax Windows XP users into switching to Mac OS X

Not true. I need a Windows machine for some software development, but I want OS X the rest of the time. And I don't want two computers on my desk.

The day they announced Bootcamp, I bought a new 20" iMac.

boxlight

I think CNet's looking at it wrong

[Todd Knarr]

I think CNet's coming to the wrong conclusions. Firstly, Apple's never going to license OSX on anything but Mac hardware. Control of the hardware's what gives Apple the ability to keep OSX stable and easy to install, they aren't going to give that up. What they've done with Mac-on-Intel and Boot Camp, though, is made buying Apple hardware safe for Windows users: whether you like OSX or not, you will be able to run Windows on your Intel-based Mac. Boot Camp isn't directly intended to let people dual-boot, it's intended as a warm fuzzy "Look, if OSX isn't for you you haven't wasted the price of that nice shiny hardware you bought.".

I think Apple fully intends to have good PC virtualization software as well. Intel hardware will make that easier. At that point they've got an attractive path to migrating people off Windows. They'll be able to say "If you buy a Mac with OSX, you can still run all your Windows software as well as you could on your Windows machine. If it turns out you've got one or two programs (like games) that won't run under the virtualization software, you can dual-boot into Windows if you have to. And if OSX just plain won't work for you, you can just wipe it and run Windows all the time and still have the shiny Mac hardware for people to drool over. If you're buying new hardware anyway, how can you go wrong?".

Wrong premise.

[danwesnor]

Apple doesn't want you to buy OS X. They want you to buy hardware. If Apple was trying to sell software, they would have switched over to PCs 15 years ago.

Article Author Misses the Point

[BenDalton]

Apple wasn't trying to woo over millions of Windows users to the Mac platform with Boot Camp. Apple's release of Boot Camp serves three purposes for them:

1. By releasing Boot Camp now, and gaining some mainstream press regarding Windows on Mac hardware, Apple has become a thought in the minds of those people who were considering a new PC purchase in the future. Mindshare. This becomes increasingly important if you believe some of the recent rumors stating that Apple will include virtualization software in the next major OS release.
2. By releasing Boot Camp now as a Beta release, Apple feeds the needs and wants of their savvy early adopters. This core group will continue to evangelize for Apple and the new Intel-based hardware. Again, this release appeals to the tinkerer group and will convince a nice small chunk of extra savvy PC users who have considered a Mac recently. This group is small. But, it is also the group that fixes the entire neighborhood's computers. They are the tech advisors.
3. With people actually running Windows on Mac hardware, Apple gains tons of information and feedback. Assuming Apple is planning on including virtualization support in 10.5, this allows them to sure up any driver issues, software support issues, orperformance issues before they make it a core, included part of their OS.

All in all, this move is a VERY intelligent one from Apple. They waited until people had the new Macs in their hands and got a feel for the performance of the hardware/OS combo, and then provided an extra feature. Now with the media buzz and the savvy user community, 10.5 may be a very significant draw for those who don't want to deal with Vista.

Just my 2 cents.

It's already paid off.

[SFEley]

I think a lot of people are missing the ROI perspective here. Boot Camp doesn't have to save the world for Apple. When you consider how cheap it probably was for Apple to develop and package Boot Camp (which is just a BIOS-spoofing firmware update, a partitioning script, and some peripheral drivers they probably got from their vendors), and how much they've already gained from it:

1. Some enthusiasts who were already curious about Macs hit the tipping point and will buy one now (and "some" is all it takes to recover development costs for something cheap);
2. Current Mac owners who had been frustrated about the games situation or need job-related Windows software have their loyalty renewed;
3. The entire tech world is talking non-stop about Apple. Again.

With so little put into it and so much buzz earned back out of it, I don't see how anyone could view this as anything but a win for Apple.

So much for enhancements

[bill_mcgonigle]

it is all about weaning users off of windows

I'm afraid you're right. I was hoping a future version of BootCamp would take advantage of modern Macs' ability to suspend-to-disk (hibernate) for rebooting into Windows - when you're done reboot into Mac OS and it'll restore itself to where you were.

But that makes it easier to reboot into Windows, so probably not a direction Apple would want to go.

Re:So much for enhancements

[bill_mcgonigle]

That's a good point.

Re:Dual boot didn't save OS/2, it won't help OS X

[sqlrob]

IBM couldn't market its way out of a paper bag. The marketing for OS/2 sucked.

Apple is a marketing company.

FP, It's not about 'Windows Users'

[Anonymous Coward]

It's about 'Power Users'. What all of these pundits are missing is that Apple doesn't want all the Windows Users, it can't afford to support that level of computer user. What Apple wants are the power users that are A. capable of installing Windows on Boot Camp and getting it properly configured, B. Capable enough that they aren't going to be calling Apple for Windows support, and C. affluent enough to afford an Apple AND all the little enhancements that they may want with it.

I know it's a terrible comparison, but the old car analogy works here. Apple doesn't want the Honda CR/V, Ford Escape crowd, they want the Land Rover Discovery, Hummer crowd. People that want more, and are willing to pay for it.

That whole willing to pay for it thing is a huge part of the deal, and it's a two pronged attack.

First, they are the demographics that has the cash to spend, but costs the least in incidentals to support. Second, they are also the trendsetters, the people that the bulk of the marketplace follows, and as such become a private army of grass roots marketers. How is that ? When someone that's not the uber tech needs a computer, whom to the ask? the Power User friend of theirs, and they follow that lead...

It really is that simple, but the industry pundits are so busy reading more into it they cannot see the simple thing right in front of them. Boot Camp isn't about Joe User, it IS about the Slashdot, OSNews, Register reading consumers.

Proudly posted from a MacBook Pro, yeah, I'm one of them, grassroots marketing, and I pay them for the privelege. pathetic isn't it :-(

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

This strategy has not worked for Linux.

[Slithe]

There is a program for Linux called Cedega (formerly known as WineX), which is a proprietary fork of Wine, which is an application to run Windows programs under Linux/BSD by translating parts of the Windows and DirectX API to the Linux API. Transgaming, the company supporting Cedega, added Direct3D support, and some other enhancements specifically for gaming, and tries to support the latest releases of Windows games. With this application, Linux gamers, a good chunk of the Linux population (at least I think it is) can play the latest games without dual-booting into Micro$**t Winblow$; unfortunately, there are some catches.

First, Cedega is NOT open-source (parts of it are released under the Alladin Public License, which is more shared source) and a subscription costs $5 per month (with an initial minimum subscription of 3 months).

The second problem is that Cedega is trying to support resource intensive applications, so they are constantly changing their supported API to 'optimize' their program. As a result, games that worked with older versions of WineX/Cedega might not work with newer versions, so you may have to install multiple copies to run the games you want.

The third, and VERY IRRITATING, flaw is that Cedega uses a voting system to determine which games to support. This means that only the popular games (Half Life, WOW, GTA, Elder Scrolls, etc.) will definitely work, and less popular games (Gothic, Gothic II,*insert many games here*) may NEVER work!!

Anyway, Cedega has some annoying flaws, but its MAIN flaw is that it gives developers a good excuse not to do a native Linux port. They may have heard of Cedega, and they assume that their game will be supported under it, so there is no reason to do a native port.

Some people, initially, liked the idea of Wine/WineX/Cedega because it would provide gamers with a way to switch to a 'superior' operating system and still be able to play their Windows games, and game developers would, eventually, see that a vast chunk of their market runs Linux, and they would start releasing native ports. Cedega has *NOT* encouraged games; one could argue that it has hampered game development under Linux (see above). Since most Linux computers can run Windows, game developers will still release games under Windows and just suggest that Linux gamers dualboot. Since most Linux users are not as fanatically anti-MS as they claim to be, most of them will boot into Windows to play their games (which I, myself, do). I hear many people on Linux forums say that they only use Windows for gaming or video-editing (or synth music creation).

Game developers do not want to do more work than is necessary, so they will not do a port if another choice is given. If a Macintosh can run Windows, then game developers will tailor their games to Windows and will not support OSX, "because you can just run Windows for that stuff." As mentioned previously, the MacIntel's ability to run Windows will not attract enough gamers for most game developers to consider OSX as a viable platform, if they have not considered it already.

In conlusion, Windows is far too entrenched in the desktop market to be displaced by anything; to fight it, one should focus on embedded computers (cell phones/PDAs/etc.) where Windows CE is just one OS among many. If you want to support open gaming, buy a GP2X. http://www.gp2x.com/

Sorry for this verbose (and mostly off-topic) rant.

Illegal Bundling

[Quinn]

Can I get a refund if I buy a Macbook and decide not to run OSX on it?

Parallels virtualization

[alfredo]

might be the way to go. Parallels.com

Unanticipated reaction

[Agram]

I think that Apple may be in for a surprise. Yes, there is a lot of propaganda flying around in regards to just about any OS on the market. However, in my experience, many Apple users (at least in the academic communities) who adamantly claim that their OS is supperior have never even bothered running Microsoft platform--they base such claims solely upon the n-hand accounts. Conversely, from this exposure (even if such was for curiosity sakes) we may end-up seeing quite a few switches, but in the opposite direction. I have personally seen only a few of those, but what made them so powerful for me was the sheer ignorance and amazement that Microsoft's OS is not nearly as bad as the propaganda makes it into (which ultimately makes such an experience positive no matter what, as the expectations are as low as they get). Now, if you are talking about the company's practices, that's a whole another story (which sadly in this case has little or no bearing on the outcome)...

SchuetzenGrabenVernichtungsPanzerKraftWagen

[onkelonkel]

"I am from germany"

You don't need to tell us. Your charming use of compund nouns (railwayridingsimulations) reveals your nationality most clearly. As a descendant of Germans, I think English would be more fun if we also adopted this form. e.g. My Computingmachinewhichservesfilesforthemostpartporn ographic just crashed again.

Peace, Love, Eisbein and Sauerkraut.

Not just for that

[jasonditz]

I'd already switched to a Mac awhile ago (from linux, not Windows), but this has me seriously contemplating upgrading to an Intel chip to take advantage of this. Before I had my eye on getting a cheap high end G5 Powermac when they finally switched those over to Intel. So instead of me being on the secondary market for a lightly used uber PPC Mac in a few months, I'm looking at buying an iMac directly from Apple.

But I think this guy (and all the people on CNBC who talk about this being "for businesses") is missing the point. People aren't saying "boy, I'd sure like to combine the price of Apple hardware with the stability of Windows", they're saying "OSX is just flat out a better all-around experience for most things, but some app categories are really missing, I wish I could dual boot so I can use a Windows app when necessary".

Games are the killer app that is keeping a lot of younger users, annoyed by all of Windows' failings, from switching. The young gamer of today could be the head of an IT department in the future, and if he sees OSX as a more productive system for doing actual work, and Windows as basically "something to play games on", that's going to factor in to future hardware purchases.

Wrong conclusions

[planetfinder]

This guy is arguing his case from the point of view that there is no difference in quality between OS X and Win XP. It suggests that he's really never used OS X for a long enough period of time to know what he's talking about.

1. " I think he's missed the boat on this one, and here's why. Cooper assumes that the existence of Boot Camp alone will be enough to entice significant numbers of Windows XP-based PC users to shell out a few grand for a new Mac -- now that's wishful thinking! In my opinion, not many will even bother."

Wrong.
Most Mac's don't cost a few grand so this guy is starting out his discussion/rant with a deliberate gross misrepresentation.

2. "Dual booting Windows XP and Mac OS X through Boot Camp is superfluous, as you're forced to reboot each time you switch between operating systems, and the Windows XP partition can't read any of the files you've saved under your Mac OS X partition. "

OS X offers you a more secure environment and that security is potentially compromised when both operating systems run concurrently.

3. "So what's the point of it, when I could just stick with my current Windows XP-based PC and not worry about Mac OS X altogether? Does OS X really offer any applications that would entice me to purchase a new Mac and put up with the tedium of Boot Camp? I doubt it."

The short answer is that OS X is better. OS X offers a nicer more stable and better considered work environment within which to run your applications. In my experience you would have to use OS X for a while to really appreciate how that improves your experience with every application that you do use. One problem is that takes a while for your work habits to change in order to really take advantage of and appreciate the improved environment that OS X offers.

4. "Rather than enticing existing Windows XP users to switch, Boot Camp will be primarily attractive to current OS X users that are lusting after certain Windows XP applications, such as games. This makes sense -- they're already accustomed to performing most tasks on OS X, and only need to switch over to Windows when they feel the urge to game."

Wrong.
Mac users aren't lusting after XP applications. They already own a cheap PC to play games and to run a those few applications in an insecure Windows environment that are not available on a Mac. Now Mac owners will be replacing their PC's with a second inexpensive Mac. With that replacement they will have a second computer that works no matter what Win XP did to their Windows partition when they installed service pack 2.

5. "Ultimately, with Boot Camp, Apple is only helping Microsoft sell more copies of Windows XP. How sweet of them."

See item 4.

6. "If Apple wants a significant number of users to sample OS X, Boot Camp just won't cut it. Instead, it's going to have to get off the fence and start selling OS X to PC users, rather than restricting it to the Mac. I don't see any valid reason why Apple isn't doing this, as it would dramatically increase its revenue and market penetration. Is Apple not confident that it can compete with PC vendors based on hardware design alone, should users have the ability to run OS X on a standard Dell or HP machine?"

Wrong.
This assertion ignores the fact that Mac's and their operating systems have better integration, better reliability, and better support. When you call Apple support with a software problem they usually don't tell you that they can't help you with your problem because its a hardware problem and visa versa. Its Apple hardware and software and Apple usually can help you for a reasonable price. Running OS X on cheap generic hardware will disallow real support of the hardware software combination and will result in a much wider variation in the quality of experience of using OS X. Effectively Apple would lose much of their quality control.

7. "However, if Cooper's right about anything, it's that "folks are not clamouring for Windows; they're clamouring to run Windows applicat

Re:How do you explian Linux's stability?

[Jeffrey Baker]

You don't explain Linux's stability because it's not stable on the desktop. Linux has a great reputation for stability because it's mainly installed on server equipment of at least moderate quality. Linux on the desktop is a disaster. Just as an example, yesterday I removed a FireWire DVD burner from my Linux computer and the kernel panicked. This is not uncommon. I can think of a dozen different ways to confuse Linux by adding or removing hardware.

Two smart things Apple has done.

[Yaztromo]

There are two smart things Apple has done with Boot Camp, which should help Mac OS X in the long run:

• The current release is beta software, and eventually times out (I've read somewhere that it times out in November 2007, but have been unable to find the source of that information. I may be remembering it incorrectly),
• In order to continue using Boot Camp, you need to buy the next version of Mac OS X.

A few results of this decision:

• Apple is selling copies of Mac OS X regardless of whether you're planning on using it or not. If you want to run nothing but Windows on your Mac, you will still need to buy a copy of OS X (in the future) just to gain access to Boot Camp.
• Presumably once Leopard (OS X 10.5) is released Macs shipping with it preinstalled will come with Boot Camp. However, I wouldn't be surprised if newer version of Boot Camp designed to support future versions of Windows require a new OS X purchase to get the updated Boot Camp software,
• How will Boot Camp be serviced? My guess will be through the existing Software Update, which requires Mac OS X. As such, it probably makes sense that every Boot Camp user will always maintain at least a small OS X partition on their systems (which may also be necessary to get updated versions of Boot Camp through future new OS X upgrades -- if Boot Camp is upgraded with new versions of OS X, it is possible it will only install when you install the new OS X itself, which will only work if you have a partition to install OS X to in the first place).

As such, I don't see this as being a big problem for the future of Mac OS X -- if anything, Apple has just hooked in more future OS X customers.

Now if they would only extend Boot Camp to work with Linux...

Yaz.