Lenovo & Customer Perception

music_lover writes "According to this article, Lenovo is losing current ThinkPad series customers to HP, Toshiba and other notebook vendors because of customer perception. Apparently, customers don't feel comfortable purchasing from a Chinese PC manufacturer now that the ThinkPad brand isn't supported by IBM anymore. Could this really be perception? Quote: "Despite the overall poor performance, Lenovo has still not gained the mindshare or the respect that the ThinkPads command. In fact, it has, to some extent, alienated ThinkPad's fans and taken a sales hit. In my immediate vicinity, those who owned ThinkPads have now traded up to an HP or a Toshiba. None of them went back to their ThinkPads. After asking for a clarification, I was told, "Who wants to buy things from a Chinese company?" That said, our corporate parent has continued to buy/use Thinkpads; the ones that I've seen do just fine, and they've added new machines and a parternership with AMD.

Comments

misconception

[dotpavan]

It's a misconception, because even HP/Toshiba/Dell/etc laptops are assembled (or parts mfg.) in China.

Re:misconception

[dnwq]

I think there's a perception (wrong or not) that companies based in Western nations are more accountable than companies based in China. Presumably, if something screws up, it is thought that it is harder to pursue a Chinese company than one in, say, the United States.

This may not be strictly true, but somehow I doubt that corporate accountability in China is better than that in the States...

Re:misconception

[darkmeridian]

I guess the misconception is that the engineers are also overseas and therefore the quality of the goods are going to go down. [sarcasm]You see, the Chinese are only good at following instructions given to them by the Americans.[/sarcasm] But look at the Thinkpad/Lenovo T60: they are still very well-built machines, when compared to even the Powerbooks.

It's terrible to think that a great brand is going to go out of existence because of unwarranted xenophobia. Imagine if we're stuck with Dell!

Re:misconception

[tacocat]

But the contrast between Thinkpad and Dell et al is the price. Chinese made products are made because of the Wal-Mart Effect. If it's made in China it's got to be very low in price. But Thinkpads are still significantly more expensive than a Dell or HP. This isn't to say that the price difference is unjustified or unwarranted. But if you were to have these computers made by a German company (a country with a long standing perception of high quality engineering) then people would be more willing to have the price significantly higher than a product made in a country famous for it's cheap Manufacturing costs and an unknown Engineering quality (possibly historically suspect).

If you look at their ultra-portable models, they are readily $500 more than other companies. I'm sure they are all made on the same street in China, but that kind of a price difference, combined with the relatively short life expectancy of a computer, tends to push me towards the cheaper models.

If computer hardware requirement growth slows down, this will give longevity to my notebooks. This in turn will give me reason to consider a better quality machine that can be expected to last longer, which brings Thinkpads back into view. But they have to survive this change from IBM to Lenovo.

If BMW or Mercedes decided to move all their locations into Korea and China I would expect their markets to take a severe hit for the same reason. And people would expect BMW vehicles to drop in price by at least 30% overnight. The perceptions of the parent companies are significant in getting people to choose.

Re:misconception

[DoctorPepper]

I have a Dell notebook, you insensitive clod! I'll have you know

@*&^^^ NO CARRIER

Re:misconception

[iocat]

I just bought a T60, after several years of having an R40. I have to admit, when I got my R40, it felt pretty neat, to own an actual *IBM* brand personal computer. I assume it's similar to what people who bought cadillacs in the 1960s felt. I had clearly just overspent on something that was actually significantly better than everything else available, and came with teh name to prove it.

The experience of getting my Lenevo ThinkPad was actually much lamer, although the computer was designed by the same people, and is obviously way better (1400 x 1050, dual core 1.8Ghz... very nice machine). Maybe nothing replaces your first IBM, but also I was surpirsed at home much they pushed the Lenevo name, instead of just capitalizing on the Think brand. That actually turned me off. The computer itself is awesome, but there is a lot less brand loyalty cache behind it. I think the value of the IBM name itself, especially to brand loyal buyers (like me, I guess) may have been undervalued.

If Lenevo abandons the awesome keyboard of the Think series (which they have already on their cut-rate Lenevo brand laptops), there's no way I'll buy another. I am just glad my T60 still says IBM, because it's going to be a cool artifact at some point in the future.

Re:misconception

[Kadin2048]

This is true, however it seems as though Lenovo is slowly cutting those people and moving the design jobs over to China as well.

The short story is in this article, Lenovo cuts jobs in restructuring push: In short, they've dumped the US design teams for their desktop line, but retained the Thinkpad people (based in N.C.). However if I was working there, I think I'd be either polishing my resume or taking a Berlitz course in Cantonese.

If their marketshare in the US continues to slip, it's not hard to imagine that they'll cut the design teams here (which are probably expensive to operate, versus having a few people on the payroll in an office they already own in Hong Kong) and retreat to the Chinese domestic market. That's pretty much what they've already done with the desktop lineup; if, given a year or so, they don't make up the lost ground to Dell and HP with notebooks, I could see it happening there as well.

Re:misconception

[saihung]

Unfortunately, what you say sarcastically isn't that far from true. Factories in China with foreign management are perfectly capable of churning out new VWs, Citroens, etc that look and drive just fine. But let's take the old Beijing Jeep debacle as an example: when Jeep actually had a say in the manufacture of Chinese Jeeps, they were basically up to the (more or less dubious, but still) quality standards of American-made Jeeps. As soon as Jeep left the business in disgust with their Chinese "partners" who were swindling them out of money and technology, the quality went into the toilet. The exterior panels stayed the same, but the engines were suddenly coming out of military trucks, the 4WD mysteriously disappeared and was replaced with a lousy 2WD drivetrain, they started shaking and rattling, etc. I don't claim to understand why this happens, but I think that it's for one big reason: Chinese understanding of what it means to be a brand is still vastly inferior to that in the West. The state of marketing and advertising in China bears this out. Chinese bosses simply don't understand, and therefore don't have patience for, Western-style marketing. Design counts, sensitivity to market counts, image counts. It took Japanese manufacturers years to figure this out, and when they did they started hiring American designers because they understood their market well enough to know that they didn't understand it very well! (though, to be fair to Japanese manufacturers, they cared about build quality even when no one was looking over their shoulders). If you've ever dealt with Chinese suppliers/executives, then you know it will be years, if ever, before most Chinese companies come to the same kind of understanding.

Re:misconception

[Senzei]

But the contrast between Thinkpad and Dell et al is the price. Chinese made products are made because of the Wal-Mart Effect. If it's made in China it's got to be very low in price.

What part of being made in China mandates that it be low price? Perception? Does a crap computer made by Germans somehow work better than a crap computer made by Chinese? Sure, maybe economic and social conditions over there encourage a "low quality, high volume" business plan, but I seriously doubt that the country as a whole is only capable of working that way.

I'm sure they are all made on the same street in China, but that kind of a price difference, combined with the relatively short life expectancy of a computer, tends to push me towards the cheaper models.

You're sure are you? So you have been there and seen it? You have no idea what you are talking about, and your ignorance is even more insulting because you seem to take pride in these ideas. Sure, in aggregate, it may be safe to say that Chinese companies produce low quality products. But to assume from there that Lenovo will produce low quality products is guilt by association, among other kinds of stupidity. I have lost all hope that I will see a week, even a day, go by without someone proving my sig to be right.

Re:misconception

[evilviper]

I think there's a perception (wrong or not) that companies based in Western nations are more accountable than companies based in China.

You're close, but not quite on the mark.

What drives me crazy about Chinese products is that brand-names are a dime a dozen.

IBM would spend significant ammounts to make sure nothing associated with IBM is regarded as poor quality. The brand is worth a lot to them. To a lesser extent, the same is true of Dell, HP, etc.

Enter China. Start a company named "Apex", manufacture cheap DVD players that actually work quite well and get a good reputation in the US. Then cash-in on that reputation by churning out with model after model of junk, priced well in excess of what it's worth. Now that nobody would ever consider buying Apex DVD player again, change your name to "CyberHome" and start churning out more cheap junk. When people catch-on to that one, just change your brand-name again. Or even better, buy a well-known, but failed brand like "Polaroid", and cash-in by selling complete junk products to people loyal to the brand (who probably don't know it was sold to some 2-bit Chinese junk manufacturer).

American (and European) brands tell you what level of quality you can expect, with a few exceptions (ie. Sony).

"Who wants to buy things from a Chinese company?"

[Anonymous Coward]

about 200 million Americans shopping in Wallmart ?
everybody has their price, just some can be bought for less

Because I say so

[Rydia]

"I think that Lenovo is losing market share. I think it's because people don't trust them. Hold on and I think of some reasons why I think I think that."

Come on, guys.

Re:Because I say so

[mgblst]

It is because they added in the windows key - nobody really wants a windows key, and here we are seeing the backlash against lenovo. (good a reason as any)

Personally, i would only but an IBM laptop, no other machine approaches the quality (maybe apple). I hope they aren't going down the tubes, or I will need to get a T43 - the best of the pre-lenovo crop.

Re:Because I say so

[phasm42]

I don't think the problem is so much that Lenovo is Chinese, but rather that Lenovo is not IBM. IBM has a reputation for building solid machines. If HPaq or eMachines had bought the Thinkpad line, I think you'd see a similar decline.

Quality still as good?

[t482]

Friend of mine just got a new T series laptop and the keys fell off. After 10 Thinkpads he thinks the quality isn't quite as good and that they are cutting corners to make more money.

Anyone else have a similar experience?

Re:Quality still as good?

[dreemernj]

Yes, but not me personally. We have a few laptops at our office that are for general use and have been using thinkpads since they came with P166s. As a matter of fact those P166s are still here and running and have had no problems (aside from defective user errors) since we got them. But, then we got a couple of Lenovo Thinkpad X41s and aside from the poor performance for the money the things were built like eMachines. And not even todays eMachines, eMachines circa 1998. Now we have HPs.

Irony

[GrAfFiT]

The irony is that all these companies contract out (I could also include Apple here) to the same few manufacturers, all either in China or Taiwan..

Re:Irony

[mjpaci]

I don't think it's the fact that they're made in China. Apple's laptops are assembled somewhere over there (don't recall if it's Taiwan or the main land) and they're good quality. It's the QA and the attention to detail that the mother company (Lenovo/Apple/HP/Toshiba) demands of the contract manufacturer. Maybe Lenovo isn't as strict as IBM was? Maybe they're using a different manufacturer. Who knows. We use IBM desktops and ThinkPads here and have since ~2003. I have not heard anything bad about the new Lenovo machines - but then again I haven't really been paying too much attention. I will ask today and post more if it's bad...

--Mike

Re:Irony

[fafaforza]

Sure, ThinkPads for years have been manufactured in the same places that other laptops are. But with Lenovo's purchase, the design and decision making would likely move from US engineers and designers and to Lenovo's.

Would that make a difference? I tend to think so. IBM didn't rely on the ThinkPads for most of its revenue. As a result, there was a slow cycle of development where proven things were kept in the laptop and it hadn't changed in many major ways for years. Still black, still the same awesome keyboard, still the trackpoint.

Now with Lenovo, you have a hardware company that is keen on outperforming its rivals and being the biggest PC supplier. I haven't been considering a new laptop purchase, but from what I've seen on Lenovo's website, they are already adding gimmicky things like white marks on the top to indicate where various ports are, making bulky wide screen models, etc. How long til the built-in multi card readers, and blue neon lights all around the case? The risk is that with a reliance on the ThinkPad brand, and a market share to grow, the T line will start undergoing very short developmental cycles with lenovo throwing in any new ideea they think up and seeing how it works out, breaking what makes ThinkPads ThinkPads. At that point, you might as well get an HP.

Re:Irony

[dslbrian]

Let's not forget about the fancy smancy Windows key they put on it.

Argh, the most worthless keys ever added to a keyboard. Whoever invented that complete waste of space that serves no purpose other than to diminish the size of the space/alt/control keys needs to be taken out back and beat to a pulp. Another tragedy of microsoft's innovation at work...

Wait a minute...

[nule.org]

I was under the impression that if you didn't want to buy a laptop "made in China" that you pretty much couldn't buy a laptop? Am I wrong?

Re:Wait a minute...

[gnuyarlathotep]

Fujitsu Lifebooks are still made in Japan. I have one, it's fantastic, but my goodness you pay for it.

Performance

[therage96]

For me, its not the fact that they are a Chinese manufacturer, but rather the performance of their computers is just not there.

Its the same as it was when Thinkpad was still an IBM product, they were tight little systems with perhaps a few cool features (butterfly keyboard anyone?), but when it came to the actual performance of the machine, competitors always beat them and at a cheaper price too.

Now if this is still true or not, I'm not sure, but that is my "impression" of the Thinkpad brand still leftover from the old IBM days.

Re:Performance

[OS24Ever]

Who cares if it's a little slower. I much prefer the fact that a 280lb geek could step on one closed 600E on the floor at 2AM and not break the screen, or a hatchback is opened and your bag was open and your T21 bounces out onto the pavement and you open it up and it works fine, or a X40 gets a full bottle of Jones Berry Cola poured into it and other than a black cherry-licious smell it keeps working (ok so I replaced the keyboard a few weeks later)

Now a 32 oz glass of tea into a T21 didn't fair nearly as well, but that's a lot of liquid. I was impressed I yanked the power cord in like 0.2 seconds but it kept running on that little thing called a battery.

Hard drive was fine though.

Slight Disclaimer: I work for em, and no matter what happens to them they get repaired, but so far I've not managed to do much to them that requires it, and I'm not gentle with my systems. I shudder to think if I treated the Dell, HPs or Toshibas (little while since I've used on of the Toshibas though). I see bits-o-plastic everywhere.

Perception

[a_nonamiss]

As a country, we prove ourselves irrationally xenophobic again and again. From the Dubai Ports World deal to people not buying laptops because they're "Chinese." What people don't know is that not much has changed since Lenovo bought the right to produce Thinkpads. They still use the same suppliers, and the manufacture is still basically the same. Thinkpads still kick ass, and I challenge anyone to find a laptop that isn't made primarily overseas.

Re:Perception

[Overzeetop]

I would disagree. I would instead say that we are a culture who blindly purchases brand names with very little actual research into performance. Sytle is everything. IBM has style. Lenovo doesn't. Nobody want's a middling performance, ugly laptop/ Lets' face it - IBM thinkpads have never been speed demons, and they are the butt-ugliest, clunky-looking laptops out there. But IBM - I B M - now that's a name that means confidence and performance. And premium prices mean premium goods.

Lenovo. Well, this "new" (to American ears) Chinese company may have bought the ThinkPad name, but there no IBM. Nosireebob. We need something that stands for quality. A company that would never cut corners. A solid performer that believes in quality over raw profits. Those boys at Hewlett Packard have been around forever and I know that name. It must stand for a good product. So now that IBM, the venerable old company, is not producing laptops, we'll go with HP. Rock solid, I tell you. (Yes everything about HP is tongue in cheek...Thanks, Carly).

This has very little to do with xenophobia, and much to do with brand recognition.

I think you sum up my point well, "... I challenge anyone to find a laptop that isn't made primarily overseas." And yet, we buy them by the landfill-load. It's not about where they're made, it's about what name is on the cover. It's no different than the way be buy cars, clothes, appliances, and consumer electronics. Nobody would buy Lenovo bought Nike people woudn't buy Lenovo athletic shoes - even if they made them in the same Chinese factory.

Re:Perception

[forgotten_my_nick]

> There is a difference between buying a laptop from a
> company where the profits of the entire laptop sale
> itself go to the company vs. the profits of the
> entire laptop sale go to the Chinese government.

Err, what are you on about? Lenovo is not owned by the Chinese government, nor does its profits go to the Chinese government (least nothing over and beyond what IBM would of had to pay when they owned them).

Your bosses seem a bit thick.

Re:Perception

[shmergin]

Im not usually a grammar/spelling nazi, but i can't let this one slide. You made a typo, should have read: "Is it xenophobic? Yes. Hypocritical? Yeppers." We (i say 'we' as the world, and not the default American 'we' that is spoken about so often in these parts) are all happy to buy our cheap laptops from Western companies who are exploiting eastern companies who are exploiting cheap eastern labour. When said companies build up enough wealth to take on the weatern companies then all of a sudden we become wary of buying from them, lest they become too rich or powerful. Lenovo paid a large sum of money to take over the thinkpad name and are building basically the same product. Not buying a product for the sole reason that you dont want the profits to go to another country (and make that country richer/more powerful) is xenophobia at work (fear or hatred of foreigners; in this case, fear).

Re:Perception

[muyuubyou]

> There is a difference between buying a laptop from a
> company where the profits of the entire laptop sale
> itself go to the company vs. the profits of the
> entire laptop sale go to the Chinese government.

Err, what are you on about? Lenovo is not owned by the Chinese government, nor does its profits go to the Chinese government (least nothing over and beyond what IBM would of had to pay when they owned them).

Your bosses seem a bit thick.

Reality check: Lenovo IS government owned.

Re:Perception

[WhiteWolf666]

The lines between Government owned, Government supported, and Private enterprise is _very_ blurry in China.

http://www.rediff.com/money/2005/sep/15bspec.htm

I do think that the U.S. government should retaliate against China's "no one may own more than 49% of a Chinese company" policy. On the other hand, the macroeconomist inside me tells me that is a stupid position.

*shrug*. . . . Who knows? I do know that the Chinese domestic market is far from a fair one.

Re:Perception

[Dr. Blue]

Lets' face it - IBM thinkpads have never been speed demons, and they are the butt-ugliest, clunky-looking laptops out there.

Wow. I know that looks are subjective, but I've never heard anyone call a ThinkPad "ugly" or "clunky" before reading this (and a couple of other postings here -- but there are also a lot of people here who disagree with you).

I've got a T42, and it's sleek (pretty much the opposite of "clunky") and I really like the way it looks. I had a Dell before this -- now that was a clunky and ugly machine. Compared to the HPs and Toshibas that I see in stores areound here, the Thinkpad frankly puts the others to shame looks-wise...

Re:Perception

[forgotten_my_nick]

> Reality check: Lenovo IS government owned.

No its not. They have 27% shares in it. Thats all.

No change of perception

[CUGWMUI]

Lenovo may have taken over the Thinkpad business from IBM, but the quality of the laptops continues to be the same. Lenovo (and IBM too), ensured that their large corporate customers continue to stick by the brand, and thats where the large sales volumes and bulk contracts come from. If there is a drop in sales to individual customers, its probably because the other laptops aren't "bland, boring machines" like Thinkpads, from a visual perspective as well as from a features perspective.

I know my company is still sticking to Thinkpads.. for the time being atleast.

Lenovo vs. HP

[Dethboy]

I'd buy another Thinkpad. I got a Z60 in December - so far the only problem I've had was a missing power cord for the docking station. I called and was promptly drop shipped a new cable.

In contrast - I've had two HP's that I've had to ship back - one took 2 weeks to return, was still broken when I got it back - shipped it again - waited another two weeks, got it back again still broken, then a day later I got a 'new' refurbished laptop in the mail - no explanation.

Jim

It is misconception.

[William Robinson]

Who wants to buy things from a Chinese company

Hope it is misconception. Why would anybody discard a product just because it is from some other country unless there are quality issues.

my $0.02.

PS: No I haven't RTFA. The site is slashdotted.

Re:It is misconception.

[forgotten_my_nick]

>I don't say you should buy a crappy American product in
>place of a high quality Chinese product. But there are
>plenty of comparably or better built laptops in the
>domestic market.

Name one machine that has all its parts constructed and assembled in the USA, or if you have problems with that name one machine that has no parts in it that originated from China.

Re:It is misconception.

[p2sam]

Aside from the Chinese being a quasi-communist state. What has the Chinese ever done to you? The Chinese had pretty much minded their business for the most part. What has the Chinese ever done to piss the Americans off?

- Why is the Chinese considered to be a "hostile entity"?
- The US trades with plenty of "opressive regimes", so who cares?

Re:It is misconception.

[forgotten_my_nick]

> It doesn't matter! The entrepeneurial profits stay in America.

and thats the state you are in now. Companies American in name only while most of the work is outsourced to other countries. It is only a matter of time before they start cutting out the middle man. Or worse the US no longer becomes viable to work in and they just up and move to the EU or another country.

After all am I going to buy a US laptop for $4000 or Chinese one for 1/10th the cost. Of course the US might start introducing protectionism to stop its consumers from buying the cheaper stuff (bit like US Steel) but it will do nothing but raise the prices of everything at home and lock you off from possible better products at a comparable price.

No difference n my opinion....

[Chanc_Gorkon]

Thinkpads before and after the Lenovo purchase are every bit as good as the one when they were called IBM ThinkPads. In fact, they have bene made by Lenovo for many years now. Only way they may be loosing market share is fear of loosing support.

No, it's because Thinkpads suck

[BadAnalogyGuy]

Time to burn some more karma...

Thinkpads have always sucked. They are ugly, heavy, and generally have less features than similarly priced notebooks from other makers. So why were they so good? I.B.M. You had the reputation of IBM behind each one. It didn't matter that these things looked like they were slapped together from parts scrounged off of cheap umbrellas and suitcase handles, IBM - the business company - was making them, and that made these ugly pieces of crap not only the de-facto business laptop, but also items to be lusted over. You could fulfill all your dirtiest accounting fantasies just by typing on that loud clicky-clack keyboard and rubbing the stiff nipple. That heft in your briefcase? That's not 'cheapest supplier', nope, it's HEAVY DUTY parts.

Anyway, now that IBM isn't behind these things anymore, they lose all that luster. And customers lose all their lust. They look and realize what Apple realized almost a decade ago - PCs don't have to be ugly. So people start looking around and see what they've been missing. Color! Brightness! Good keyboards! STYLE.

It's all Windows underneath the hood, and in all likelihood it's the same hardware as well. There's no reason to be stuck with Thinkpads anymore.

Re:No, it's because Thinkpads suck

[planetmn]

They are ugly, heavy, and generally have less features than similarly priced notebooks from other makers. So why were they so good? I.B.M. You had the reputation of IBM behind each one.

That, or they are built like a tank, something that a business would appreciate. I have a circa 1999/2000 I-Series thinkpad. Bottom of the line pretty much. The friend who purchased it new abused the hell out of it (since selling it to me and buying powerbooks, he has broken the powerbook multiple times). Six years later, everything works but the PCMCIA card reader (he dropped it onto its' side with a wireless card installed) and the hinges for the screen take some finessing (it travelled cross country, more then once, thrown into the bed of a truck). The thing is a tank, and if you are travelling, it will outlast anything out there. Sure they are more expensive, but there is a reason.

Color! Brightness! Good keyboards! STYLE.

Maybe it's just me, but I like the plain, black look of the thinkpad, I find it rather sleek. But hey, style is subjective. I also like the look of the powerbook. And in terms of keyboard, I have not used a keyboard on a laptop I prefer to the thinkpad (this includes HPs, Dells, Apples and Toshibas).

It's all Windows underneath the hood, and in all likelihood it's the same hardware as well.

While that may be true, the fact that the "hood" is heavier duty, makes a huge difference.

-dave

Re:Quality still as good? - Or as bad?

[Herschel Cohen]

I own a IBM T-30 that under really light use developed two cracks in the case. The crappy Gateway I leased and hauled around everywhere for over two years only developed one case crack. Moreover, the latter had hard use.

The only positive comment is that the IBM unit is still technically useful running Linux, whereas the Gateway with the then new Windows 95 ceased to have any utility to me a full six months prior to the lease expiration - and I was doing Windows type custom coding for clients at that time.

40% of the laptops we get are bad

[pbulteel73]

I can understand if everyone else is having the same problems we are. 40% of the laptops we get have issues that mainly come from bad motherboards. With that many systems not working and the fact that it takes so long for the new system or the part to replace it, you start to thinking of looking elsewhere. Lonovo: Get your act straight or you're going to lose almost all your customers!

Surprised?

[pcguru19]

Everything on the market was already being made or 99% designed before Lenovo bought the brand. The true test of quality and innovation will be with the next flip of laptops. The R&D and design work is still being done in the USA by the old thinkpad team, but time will tell if they have the same budget and the same directives on what they're to build. It doesn't matter how great your design team is if you're told you've got to make a laptop for no more than $999 MSRP.

Lenovo is good stuff

[toogreen]

Hey I've been living in China for more than 3 years now, and I know a bit about computer brands and stuff. It's a total misconception because Lenovo is BY FAR the best Chinese brand for computers and laptop here. It's considered by many of pretty good quality. My girlfriend has a Lenovo branded laptop, and It's good enough! Better than many HP/Toshiba I've seen before...

It's not like nothing good can come out of China...

Re:Lenovo is good stuff

[hey!]

Lenovo is BY FAR the best Chinese brand for computers and laptop here.

The thing is -- companies aren't always brands, as is well known to, say, General Motors. Any organization that can make superb equipment can also make junk, and there's money to be made selling junk.

My late brother was, unlike me, a super-salesman. It wasn't that he was the sort who could sell anything to anyone. In fact that would ran counter to his philosophy of sales, which is that if you want to sell to somebody, have the right thing to sell to them. Consequently, he always had three lines. He had a high end line, for those who always had to have the best quality, even though most of the benenefit of the investment would be reaped by their heirs. He had a midrange line, for the pragmatic customer. And he had a line which was, frankly, crap, for the customer who wanted to squeeze the cash out of his business and leave town in a hurry.

Those three cases cover the vast majority of motivated customers. Where salesmean ran into trouble, in his view, was wasting energy and time by not understanding this simple principle of selling: there is a natural customer base for any level of quality. You can't sell crap to the carriage trade, they know it's crap. Nor can you sell crap to the bottom feeders by pretending it's good stuff -- it just puts them off. But you can easily sell crap to the bottom feeders as crap. It's very crappiness is in sense a kind a feature they will even pay a premium for. A man who feels like he is getting something as a steal is not going to look the proverbial gift horse in the mouth, unless you go out of your way to make him suspicious.

So -- the fact that Lenovo can make great hardware is neither here nor there. The fact that they have acquired a brand known for it's quality is far more significant.

Probably nothing to do with China, or even Lenovo.

[ivan256]

Companies aren't usually racist, or xenophobic. Most big business embrace foreign production as a method to save costs. What's going on here is that the high price of a ThinkPad used to be justified because it was backed by the excelent support organization at IBM. Busunesses didn't care that Lenovo was making the laptops for IBM anyway before the sale because they were buying the service and support primarily and the hardware second. Unless Lenovo builds up a network of local on-call service personell and a rapid FRU distribution chain like IBM has, and unless they market that service organization to death, they're slowly going to lose every business and educational ThinkPad customer IBM had.

The real problem with Lenovo

[Anonymous Coward]

The real problem isn't that Lenovo is making the computers, they have manufactured Thinkpads for IBM for years now. The problem is that Lenovo is pushing the Thinkpads into retail and are therefore competing with low-end Gateways, Averatecs, and who knows what else. This puts enormous pressure to bring prices down, which means resultant pressure to get the manufacturing costs of the laptops down as well. Users of the x60 series Thinkpads (formerly x40, x32, etc) are complaining that the buttons feel cheap and that the units are not as solid as previous models.

The good thing about Thinkpads is that IBM refused to cheapen the laptops just to get market share. IBM users knew that they were getting a solid notebook with good service and a 3-year warranty. IBM could therefore charge a premium for that. Now that Lenovo is trying to get their products into Best Buy, there is no incentive to build a rock solid machine because nobody is going to buy it because it is too expensive. So the incentive is to build cheap crap that is good enough to get out the door without excessive warranty claims from cheaping out too far.

It's a shame that Lenovo is ruining the Thinkpad brand. I have a Thinkpad and love it but I will have to think twice when it comes time to buy another one.

It has nothing to do with the China issue

[duffbeer703]

Companies bought Thinkpads because they were IBM customers, and their IBM rep sold them some IBM "solution" that covered everything from software & services to client devices. You see this alot in big banks and government agencies. They would sell Thinkpads and PCs at a heavy "discount", and recoup the "discount" in rollout costs or by not discounting some enterprise server or software.

Now that Lenovo is a different entity, your Websphere, Tivoli or mainframe salesman cannot pad his commissions by moving a few hundred Thinkpads at a heavily discounted price. Hence the drop in Thinkpad sales.

Re:"Who wants to buy things from a Chinese company

[lRem]

Well yes. But the basic reason for buying anything that's Chinese is that it's cheaper. When it comes to Thinkpads, they're both Chinese _and_ expensive. That's why they have hard time on European/American markets.

My fav features

[porkThreeWays]

I bought a thinkpad a few months after the aquisiton. I basically bought it for two reasons. 1) A simple solid laptop that isn't as expensive as a toughbook. 2) Ease of assembly/disassembly, availability of parts, hardware documentation, etc etc. And so far its passed with flying colors.

My last laptop (averatec) was the biggest piece of shit ever. It had a notorious power issue and Averatec refused to fix it (or even admit its a common problem). There was no documentation for taking it apart or its layout, and even when I got it apart and found the part to be replaced, Averatec won't sell you parts. I set out to find the perfect simple laptop...

It feels very solid. You can handle it pretty well and it doesn't feel like it's going to break. Not toughbook strength, but still very good. IBM still hosts giant manuals on their site for taking them apart. This was extremely important to me. It seemed like an admission that it's actually ok to take apart your laptop and service it yourself. It's very extensive. I love how there are only 5 screw sizes on the whole laptop and they are all marked. It's such a simple gesture, yet it helps SO MUCH. With my Averatec, I was left with a pile of screws that got mixed up and was impossible to get back together.

As I said, I've got a Levano and not an IBM version. I would say the quality is still there. If you are a corporate buyer, keep buying them until they give you a reason not to. I've had enough problems with Dell's and HP's to know jumping ship to them on a whim isn't going to make things any better.

You think Thinkpads suck? O-kaaaay!

[Chas]

Sorry, but if you think the Mac laptop offerings (especially the keyboards) are "good", you've evidently lost all feeling below the neck. Their laptop offerings are some of the flimsiest pieces of crap imaginable.

Take the MacBookPro. Pick it up in one hand along an edge. If you can't see the entire damn case flexing, I'll eat my UPS.

I'm not really sure what your experience with Thinkpads was.

My experience was almost universally positive. And the things, while not the greatest gaming systems (Internationa BUSINESS Machines anyone?), were always rock-stable and durable.

Of courst, that COULD just be me. But I pretty much have a circle of friends, co-workers, and colleagues who swear up and down by Thinkpads too. More or less for the identical reasoning.

As for color. I'm not marching in the local GLPP. I'm WORKING on the thing. I don't need neon greeen, or lousy aluminum cases that ding and scratch if I so much as look at the thing. The Thinkpads have a certain stark, no-nonsense style to them, and they definitely make a positive statement about the person using them.

But hey, to each his own. If you want a laptop that looks like it fell out of a box of Fruit Loops, cool.

Re:Lenovo = Legend Systems = Packard Bell

[Aphrika]

"Basically the Thinkpad is rebranded Packard Bell"

Ah sorry, that's not true.

Packard bell are owned by NEC, and Lenovo used to be known as Legend. They are not the same company, nor linked. However, they may use the same ODMs (Original Design Manufacturers) for some of their kit - IIRC the 3000 series Lenovo is made by Compal who also makes a lot of the HP kit.

However, the Thinkpad range has always been manufactured by Quanta. They also make laptops for Sony and Dell and are well respected in the industry, along with other top-tier ODMs like Celestica, Flextronics and Wistron.

It's all branding folks...

[Churla]

Why do people continue to buy Sony products when Sony has been slipping?

Why do people continue to buy Microsoft software if it's known not to be the best out there?

Why do people eat at McDonalds instead of the mom and pop diner 2 blocks away that serves better burgers?

It's all name and brand recognition. People bought IBM notebooks because IBM had a name behind them, and in many cases also supplied all the bigger infrastructure and server pieces.

Now that same laptop isn't an IBM anymore. Like a high dollar luxury car manufacturer that also releases the same cars produced in the same way, but with a less expensive nameplate on them loses market value.

What used to have a Lexus nameplate on it, now has a Toyota nameplate. And has to complete on a different scale.

Lenovo is the same still.

[youroldbuddy]

Lenovo is still making ThinkPads engineered by IBM and the quality hasnt changed a bit. The keyboards are still made by the same suppliers and nothing has changed yet. As someone who works 9 hours a day fixing IBM laptops for a reseller, I can say that things are looking up. The new T/X60 computers look awesome and relatively problem free (havent had any experience with them yet, a good sign) and Z60 is more or less problem free and has many features IBM has starved homeusers of (windows button, firewire etc.). The whole ThinkVantage package, Image UltraBuilder + LANDesk is coming along faster and faster and the whole commitee mentality seems to be more or less gone. My prefence for IBM laptops is reinforced every time I open up lappy's from other manufacturers.

Re:Don't Know Lenovo

[Jim Hall]

I'm going to wait and see what other customers have to say. That said if I were in the market for a laptop right now I'd heavily consider Lenovo because Dell, HP, Sony, Toshiba, et al have all already proven themselves to be inferior products.

IBM and Lenovo are still tight business partners. For example, at the end of March, I met with my IBM sales rep to review projects coming up over the next 12 months. As an aside, half-jokingly, I mentioned in that timeframe I'd also buy a new laptop ... and if he knew of any new ThinkPads coming out, let me know. Heh heh.

The next day I got a call from a Lenovo rep, who had spoken with my IBM rep. She said she heard I was interested in Lenovo Thinkpads, and would I like to test-drive a new model that recently came out? Hell, yes.

I've been running a Thinkpad T60 laptop since the start of April. Of course, I'm running Linux on it. It's a great laptop. Titanium body, magnesium-allow cover, integrated wireless, ... It's even Intel Core Duo! At the end of the month, it's going to be hard to go back to my Thinkpad R40 (ABS plastic body & cover, single-core CPU, etc.)

Still, if you're waiting to see what other customers have to say, I'd suggest getting a model that uses the Integrated Intel Graphics Media Accelerator 950 video (which is natively supported by x.org). So far, ipw3945-0.0.74-4.rhfc5.at seems to provide stable wireless networking, so I guess the Intel PRO/Wireless 3945ABG integrated wireless is okay.

IBM's mindshare

[Rob T Firefly]

IBM has been slowly losing mindshare for decades now. Older nerds will remember the days when IBM was the big one, the monolith, the place BBS kids dreamed of haxing and MIT kids dreamed of ending up at. For a long time, the entire home computer industry was basically IBM and Apple. Not so these days.

My experience

[timeOday]

When my 2.5 year-old IBM T40 recently flaked out, it was repaired on warranty - including a new motherboard, keyboard, and CD ROM drive (I use the laptop all the time and it was basically shot). So long as they carry on IBM's obligations and the quality stays high, I'm seriously tempted to stay with the Thinkpad series. The T60 looks to be a great machine, the only complication is that MacBooks can now boot windows too so those are tempting.

The end of the ThinkPad

[dozer]

I bought a ThinkPad i1452 in 1999. IBM took it back once under warranty to clean cat hairs out of the keyboard (oops) and once, OUT OF WARRANTY, to replace a still-working but loose power connector. No hassles; I just call them up, spend 10 minutes on the phone, a shipping container arrives the next day, and I have a working laptop back within a week. Beautiful.

My roommate just bought an X41. The hardware is beautiful but the software that it shipped with is insanely buggy. She spent a day applying all the updates. Click update, click yes, reboot, click update, click yes, reboot reboot reboot. At the end of that, the laptop still throws up random error dialogs about hard disk issues and the CD-ROM drive is really flaky. She spent 4 hours on the phone with Lenovo over the weekend. Lenovo told her to run the entire diagnostic regimen (takes over 12 hours). No errors. Then they told her to wipe the hard drive and recover from the recovery partition. And then go through another day of update hell. She hasn't done that yet -- the laptop is sitting unused while she tries to find time to hassle with it again.

Lenovo seems to think that it's acceptable to charge her almost $2500 for a laptop and then burn over TWO DAYS of her time trying to get working software on this thing. IBM would have fixed it or replaced it and ensured she has a laptop that actually works. If she wanted to repair her own laptop, she would have bought an Asus.

I've bought and recommended ThinkPads since 1999. No more. Does anybody have any recommendations for a ThinkPad replacement? A company that makes solid laptops and stands behind them 100%?

Re:"Who wants to buy things from a Chinese company

[Stonent1]

The funny thing is, if you go to Lenovo's site, the first picture you see is a Thinkpad with an IBM logo on it.

Poor Service

[moankey]

While the machines may be manufactured from the same place, I had to call for my offices recently for an invoice on a particular Thinkpad requested by the CFO. After being transferred to half a dozen people over the course of about 4 hours and providing the serial number and model number it was something they could not figure out or do for me. Apparently a request like this was never made before and baffled their customer, technical service, and sales.

Whereas when it was IBM run, it would have taken 1 call and 10 minutes.

That's the problem, in my uninformed opinion.

[Valdrax]

It's the association between Chinese manufacturing and cheap, flimsy crap from Wal-Mart that's hurting Lenovo if any reputation is hurting them. Chinese manufacturing doesn't really have any other reputation in America despite the fact that most notebooks are assembled there and all notebooks are made of parts primarily manufactured there. China's spent so long trying to undercut everybody that they've done a lot of damage to their reputation for quality.

On the other hand, that's exactly how America was 200 years ago. We undercut everyone with cheap, crappy goods thanks to our abundant workforce and raw supplies, and we built quality goods much later. China will eventually overcome this reputation once they've bootstrapped their economy and their own consumers become more sophisticated and demanding.

Then again, what do I know? I haven't shopped for PC notebooks recently, and I don't know if there's an actual quality decline in Thinkpads instead of a perceived problem due to national origin.

But I LIKE Thinkpads!

[Asklepius M.D.]

I recently purchased an X40 from Lenovo and have had no reason to be sorry about my choice. When I worked at my university's helpdesk, we had HPs, Gateways, Dells, Toshies, and Vaios stacked in heaps in the "to be repaired" cabinet, but I can count on one hand the number of thinkpads brought in with problems (most of these were over 5 years old and still going strong). I personally have owned laptops made by Dell, Gateway, HP, and even a customized Sager, but none of them were able to take much abuse. This thinkpad has survived being smashed by textbooks sans a case in my backpack, it's survived dust storms at 10k feet in the Rockies, it's been dropped countless times, and it still doesn't have a scratch on it! Okay, so it's not a fancy gaming machine, but I have a home built tower for that! It runs linux like a dream without my having to tweak each and every hardware device. I get 8 hours of battery life (dual batts) and the thing still weighs less than 5 lbs. It handles schoolwork, business, coding, and all that can be lumped together as "internet" without ripping my arm off or falling apart in a fresh breeze. Best of all, it didn't come with craploads of "demo" software. It's a pleasure to type on (I have yet to use a mouse with it) and I can't see myself purchasing anything else in the future. Since I don't run windoze, I won't be obligated to buy a new laptop when Vista comes out - same for games. This thing will function just fine for years to come, and I can keep my tower up to date with the money I save. Bottom line, you get what you pay for; this is a great machine.

Branding matters?

[suv4x4]

Is this shocking to anyone. Yes some of us know that a handful of Chinese companies make the computers of all 99% of all desktop and laptop manifacturers, but many don't.

So they look for brand identity, external appearance. Country of manifacturing on the brand is a part of the brand.

Over here (Bulgaria) there's plenty of companies running shared hosting business. Their tech support are all Bulgarian boys and girls, but they all have US name pseudonyms. One of those companies I've internal info on (shall remain nameless) insisted on being patriotic and splattering everything with the Bulgarian flag and not using pseudonyms.

After an incredibly weak few months, were even purchase by Bulgarians were weak, they joined the "let's pretend the world is US" bandwagon and sales quickly jumped up.

MOD PARENT DOWN

[Luscious868]

As others have pointed out, the Chinese goverment has a majority stake in the company. While that doesn't make it 100% owned by the Chinese goverment, they have enough of a stake in the company that people ought to be aware of it.

Doubtful about quality.

[C10H14N2]

Americans are pretty well aware that most of their stuff is manufactured in Asia, but there's a different sense to getting things from Taiwan vs. China -- akin to someone deliberately buying Puerto Rican rum instead of Cuban rum. Calling it "unwarranted xenophobia" is more unwarranted than the supposed xenophobia. There are some very serious concerns with China from their labor standards and human rights record to their relations with North Korea and Taiwan.

Some people take those issues very, very seriously and would rather give their money to someone partnering with Taiwan, which indicates it is something more complex than simply being xenophobic. There are very real, very concrete and in many cases extremely valid reasons why people avoid Chinese products when they can.

Fine

[GuloGulo]

"Not buying a product for the sole reason that you dont want the profits to go to another country (and make that country richer/more powerful) is xenophobia at work (fear or hatred of foreigners; in this case, fear)."

Fine then, what are we afraid of?

You can expand the definition of xenophobia all you like, and mis-apply it to any number of inappropriate situations.

But this isn't one of them. In this case, it's not a matter of being afraid or hating anyone. It's a matter of spending my money in support of a company that meets my expectations for quality and value.

Lenovo has neither of those.

As others have said, it's not that "lenovo" is a minus, but rather "IBM" is a big plus.

And it's certainly not xenophobia, no matter how much you insist otherwise.

Perception and Misconception

[KC7GR]

I think there's a little of both going on. Consider that the 'ThinkPad' name has been a part of IBM for many moons indeed. Suddenly shuffling that name off to Lenovo, a name that I doubt anyone outside of laptop manufacturing circles even knew existed, is bound to cause a bit of a dent.

The 'misconception' in this situation is two-part. First, Lenovo has, to the best of my knowledge, been building ThinkPads for IBM for at least the last decade or so. Assuming my understanding is accurate, anyone who's ever bought a ThinkPad has already bought a Lenovo-built system.

The second part is the idea that quality will be lower on Chinese-manufactured products. While this is certainly true in many cases (think cheap hand tools), I don't see it happening here because, again, Lenovo has been building ThinkPads all along. Why would they risk damaging their own market, and possible collateral damage to IBM's rep, by starting to cut corners?

'Brand loyalty' is a tricky thing. Advertising companies know this, and I think IBM and Lenovo are learning that all over again. The bitter truth of the matter is that the US has sold off an awful lot of its manufacturing base to China, and other foreign investors, most definitely including computer hardware.

I may not like this trend, but I cannot deny that I have taken advantage of it many times. The motherboards I've been using for the past decade or so (Tyan, usually) were all manufactured in Chinese factories.

Another example: The surround receiver I just bought (Harman Kardon AV635) was designed in the US, but actually built in China. Used to be that H-K built ALL their amps, tuners, etc. right here in the US.

In short: How, exactly, does one AVOID Chinese-made electronics? There are darn few US-based electronics manufacturers left, and most of those are in specialty or 'niche' markets.

Even if an electronic product is made entirely in the US, by a US company, take a look inside. Chances are really good that you'll find transistors from Japan, capacitors from Korea or China, and plastic parts from Lord only knows where.

It's (unfortunately) unavoidable. The whole thing reminds me a bit of a Monty Python animation which shows a secretary drowning in a rising wave of Chinese.

The best anyone can do is what should always be done: Carefully evaluate multiple brands against your requirements, and pick the best one for the job.

Keep the peace(es).

Real data about Chinese Gov. ownership of Lenovo

[Kevin143]

Lenovo is partly owned by the government. Lenovo was founded as a branch of from a government think tank and as a result, the Chinese government owns about 10% of Lenovo through the Chinese National Academy of the Sciences.