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Linux Snobs, The Real Barriers to Entry

McSnarf writes "It's not Windows. It's not distro wars. Sometimes it's just the arrogant attitude that keeps people from switching from Windows. 'As I spoke to newbies, one Windows user who wanted to learn about Linux shared the encouraging and constructive note (not) he received from one of the project members. The responding note read: "Hi jackass, RTFM and stop wasting our time trying to help you children learn.""

43 of 1,347 comments (clear)

  1. duh by gEvil+(beta) · · Score: 5, Funny

    Well duh! Of course it's the arrogant users that are keeping people from trying Linux. That's precisely the reason why I use a Mac.

    --
    This guy's the limit!
    1. Re:duh by elrous0 · · Score: 4, Funny
      That's precisely the reason why I use a Mac.

      I managed to escape from that cult, and you can too brother!

      Meet me by the fence tonight at 1am. I'll have a van waiting. We can take you to a place where Father Steve will never find you. There is another life out there for you, trust me!

      -Eric

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    2. Re:duh by jamrock · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Hey! I resemble that remark!

      Thanks much, that comment made me laugh out loud. Oddly, while some Mac users can be intolerant fools who sneer at Windows users as "lemmings" and "sheeple" among other much worse things, the Mac community is generally welcoming, civil, and helpful to people who ask questions out of genuine curiosity. And no, we're not some kind of cult who slavishly defend Apple and His Steveness from the Great Ignorant Unwashed. In fact you'll find that Mac users tend to be the most vocal critics of Apple, especially if they do something unpopular; fortunately they've been doing almost everything right in recent years, so there's been an extended honeymoon between Jobs and the faithful. The best description of Mac users' attitude toward Apple is to say that the Macintosh belongs to US, Apple and Steve Jobs are merely its stewards.

      The vast majority of us can't be bothered to get into flame wars and childish shouting matches. Unfortunately, the rabid frothing zealots among us (most of whom are completely clueless about Macs in the first damn place) are the ones who give the entire community a bad name. These are the idiots who send obscenity-laced messages to journalists who make even the slightest derogatory remark about Apple, so it's no surprise that the prevailing view in the mainstream press is that Mac users are all "fanatics"; it's mostly only the fanatics they hear from. The rest of us are too busy doing more important things. Like reading Slashdot.

    3. Re:duh by identity0 · · Score: 4, Funny

      Are you kidding me? The Mac community is composed of 30% latte-sipping wannabe 'artists', 50% trendsters with too much money, 25% hippies, 4% Hollywood actors, and 1% Steve Jobs. And Steve is the least arrogant one of the bunch.

      That's why I Switched(tm) to OpenBSD, the least arrogant OS community!

      I can go up to the head development guy, Theo, and he answers all my questions!! Usually the answer is how evil George Bush and Richard Stallman are, and how stupid I am for being a stupid American that supports stupid people and asks stupid questions because I am stupid. I don't know how that solves my problems, but at least he answers!!!!

      Stupid Steve Jobs never answered my love letters. Arrogant bastard!!!

  2. An Unfortunate Reality by TripMaster+Monkey · · Score: 4, Insightful


    In my experience, I'd have to say this article is right on the money. While snobs can be encountered for just about any OS you care to name, the Linux snobs are particularly shrill. This shrillness may be attributed to a variety of causes, including social ineptitude, feelings of intellectual/moral/fiscal superority, attempted concealment of their own limited knowledge, etc., but there is just no excuse for this sort of behavior. Linux is first and foremost a collaborative effort, and by failing to live up to that ideal, Linux snobs subvert the very point of Linux itself.

    Yes, it is true that the answers to your questions are out there...Linux does have copious documentation. But the fact of the matter is that a simple answer to a simple question can do much more than save the newbie hours of combing through MAN pages...it can also foster the sense of community that is the very lifeblood of Linux.

    Linux users need to understand that when disillusioned Windows users come to them asking for help with Linux, they effectively become representatives of Linux...ambassadors, if you will...and they need to behave accordingly. Abusing new Linux users for their lack of knowledge, rather than helping them to learn more, only harms the cause.

    Just remember....you were a n00b yourself once...

    --
    ____

    ~ |rip/\/\aster /\/\onkey

    1. Re:An Unfortunate Reality by schabot · · Score: 5, Funny

      Just remember....you were a n00b yourself once...

      Speak for yourself. After my mother re-partitioned her drive and mounted the smaller one at "/womb" I was compiled from source.

    2. Re:An Unfortunate Reality by Moby+Cock · · Score: 5, Insightful

      [This] will lead to people that are unable and unwilling to experiment with software. Half of what I have learned regarding software has been trial and error.

      That may suit you learning style, but for others it is extraordinarily frustrating. We need to be able to include everyone in this community. Users who do not have the inclination, or time, to use trial and error should be able to post on help message boards without getting flamed. Sadly, in the Linux community, noob has become an mark of shame. Its absurd and counter-productive. We do not entice new users very well at all, and it is to our detriment.

    3. Re:An Unfortunate Reality by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful
      [...] The important concept to bear in mind when discussing software issues with Linux apologists is the "Linux Fault Threshold". Clever use of this concept helps you to avoid losing your temper with someone who might actually be able to render practical help, while ensuring that you give the correct dose of venom (60cc of scorpion juice, administered per anem with a rusty syringe) to the vast crowd of mindless apologists who just want you to use their pet operating system because it makes them feel good and gives them something to boast about on Slashdot. I provide this as a service to all the blind, alcoholic, incontinent grandmothers out there who appear to be installing Linux without any trouble if the Slashdot comments on any article remotely related to user interface design are to be believed.

      The Linux Fault Threshold is the point in any conversation about Linux at which your interlocutor stops talking about how your problem might be solved under Linux and starts talking about how it isn't Linux's fault that your problem cannot be solved under Linux. Half the time, the LFT is reached because there is genuinely no solution (or no solution has been developed yet), while half the time, the LFT is reached because your apologist has floundered way out of his depth in offering to help you and is bullshitting far beyond his actual knowledge base. In either case, a conversation which has reached the LFT has precisely zero chance of ever generating useful advice for you; it is safe at this point to start calling the person offering the advice a fucking moron, and basically take it from there. Here's an example taken from IRC logs to help you understand the concept.

      <jsm> Why won't my fucking Linux computer print?
      <linuxbabe> what printer r u using?
      <jsm> I don't know. It's a Hewlett Packard desktop inkjet number
      <linuxbabe> hewlett r lamers. they dont open source drivers [LFT closely approached!]
      <linuxbabe> but we reverse engineered them lol. check the web. or ask hewlett for linux suuport??[but avoided, he's still talking about the problem]
      <jsm> Thanks. I already did that. But I can't install the drivers on my fucking computer. I've got a floppy disk from HP, but my floppy drive is a USB drive and Linux doesn't have fucking USB support.
      <linuxbabe> linux DOES have USB support!!!!!!
      <jsm> yeh for fucking infrared mice, and for about a thousand makes of webcam it does. Get real here. For my fucking floppy disk drive, I am telling you through bitter experience it does not. Even if someone has written the drivers in the last week
      <jsm> which I sincerely doubt, how the hell am I going to install them given that my floppy drive doesnt work?????
      <jsm> this ought to be in the kernel. what good is a fucking operating system that doesnt operate?
      <linuxbabe> Imacs dont have floppy drives at all [useless point, but not LFT. All apologists make pointless jabs at other OSs]
      <linuxbabe> so you ought to be greateful that Linux does. drivers like that shouldn't be bundled in the kernel
      <linuxbabe> makes it into fucking M$ bloatware. bleh
      <linuxbabe> download drivers from the web!!!! apt-get is your friend
      <jsm> So everyone keeps telling me. Unfortunately the fucking modem doesn't work under Linux either, and since the Linux installation destroyed Windows, that leaves me kind of fucked.
      <linuxbabe> Linux doesnt destroy windows
      <jsm>mandrake installer does. It "resized" my Windows partition and now the fucker won't work
      <linuxbabe> you shuold have defragmented. windows scatters data all over your hard drive so the installer cant just find a clean chunk to install into. it isn't linux fault [distinct signs of LFT being approached]
      <linuxbabe> that windoze disk management blows
      <jsm> so why doesn't my fucking modem work?
      <linuxbabe> what computer ha

    4. Re:An Unfortunate Reality by Henry+V+.009 · · Score: 5, Funny

      Half the stuff mounted there was foreign binaries that she could have got from anywhere.

    5. Re:An Unfortunate Reality by NicM · · Score: 5, Insightful

      > Why won't my fucking Linux computer print?

      This kind of belligerent, vague question is probably the reason this person doesn't get answers. Very few people with actual, genuine clue are going to get involved when the person asking hasn't even tried to make their initial question complete or useful. It not only looks like this person has an attitude but that they are also going to make anyone who answers do a lot of work to get enough clear information out of them, such as their set up and what they've tried already, so they can give an answer. Many people help others on IRC (without being paid, in their own, personal free time) because they enjoy it, and if it looks like someone is going to be unnecessarily hard to help, many will just go do something else.

  3. Two Experiences by eldavojohn · · Score: 5, Interesting

    My freshman year (2000) in college started with me not knowing what a "linux" was. This all changed when a friend handed me a Debian distribution burned to an ISO. He encouraged me to repartition my hard drive and install this next to my Windows 98 SE installation. Like a lot of new people, I hosed my hard drive. I ended up doing fresh installs on both OS's and getting the dual boot to work. There were cheap little games and some truly great and historical open source software on that disc also. The next day in class, the guy couldn't get me to shut up about how great it was. I had hit a few snags but the answers were all online.

    My first college kegger could not compare to the first time I ran Linux. Nor would a kegger ever be as memorable. A free operating system? That works?

    A year or two later, I'm in a new class. There's a kid sitting in front of me going on and on about Linux. Up to this point, I've used Debian, Mandrake & Red Hat so I drop a question out there:

    Me: "I really like Mandrake, what do you think is the best distribution?"
    Student A: "It's obviously Gentoo."
    Me: "Gentoo? I haven't even heard of that one..."
    Student A: "Well, it's clearly the superior distribution."

    Ok, so my first encounter with Linux people working against Linux people in a childish d*ck measuring contest. To my horror, I overheard the following conversation thereafter ensue between him and a person in the class looking for a Linux installation experience:

    Student B: "I use Windows and I'm confused even as where to start..."
    Student A: "That's easy, just install Gentoo."
    Student B: "I ... Where do I get a disc for that?"
    Student A: "They're freely online, you just have to find them and install them--I recommend an ftp install so that you get the latest versions of everything. And with Gentoo, you can just emerge whenever you want to update. "
    Student B: "'Emerge'--what does that mean?"
    Student A: *snorts* "If I have to tell you, there's no point in you even getting Linux."

    And on it went, with Student A asserting his superiority. When I got home, I tried to install Gentoo. It took forever, I hit a million snags but eventually got it working. I hated it. After talking again to them, the only reason Student A was using Gentoo was because he had some crazy chipset he needed to compile everything for (a dual AMD setup which was rare back then) and he also revealed that he spent every Sunday night "emerging."

    Luckily, I intevened with Mandrake and gave him something close to Windows that an idiot probably could install. I told him all the cautionary advice I had to give and I feel that he most closely identified with me.

    The truth is: not all Linux experiences are for everybody.

    --
    My work here is dung.
  4. Re:Linux sNOBs by Southpaw018 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Astounding. You've taken a sane, logical article and replied to it in the exact illogical, impassioned manner it criticizes. You, sir, are a poster child for a Linux snob. The article encourages you to stop talking, essentially. Read it again, because it is wholly and entirely accurate.

    My story, aside from parent: I'm trying to install Mailman a year or so back. I have a base Debian install. I'm stuck. I RTFM. It's not that I can't, or that I don't want to, it's that I quite simply don't understand what it's telling me to do. I don't know what an Exim director is, and the manual thingy doesn't really care to say, only that I need to configure Mailman to work with it. (Since then, it's been updated to be a bit more descriptive. I just checked.)

    So, I ask. The response? A snub. Worded from a community member to a third person for me to read: "Maybe the problem isn't Mailman or any of the other awesome software he's running, it's the user not reading all the available documentation."
    I note that I read it, but I don't understand it. No response at all.

    These days, I have one Debian box with ZoneMinder and Mailman sitting here and everything else is still Windows. I'm quite happy with that.

    --
    ACs are modded -6. I don't read you, I don't mod you, I don't see you. Don't like it? Don't be a coward.
  5. Re:Linux sNOBs by elrous0 · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Many of you are too wrapped up in playing with the latest transparent desktop

    You know, I just can't imagine why anyone would call Linux users snobs.

    -Eric

    --
    SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
  6. Preaching to the choir here by LiquidCoooled · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This article seems as much flamebait as anything.
    I read through and a lot of what he was describing sounded like listening to the anonymous cowards on here.

    Asking a Mac user which is the best operating system will result in one answer, asking a linux user to discuss the various distros is another.

    Audiophiles will deride a newbie for asking silly questions, gamers will take the piss out of n00bs for aiming wrong or asking about the best weapons, hell even office staff will give you a 10 minute diorama about their red stapler, but if you ask them what the differences are they will fly off at the handle.

    Nobody knows about all the distros or databases and theres not really a one size fits all solution so people get embedded in their current system.
    Sounds like he just found people on their off days, but I agree with the general article contents - it extends to all walks of life and multiple subjects.

    And I've not even touched on vi vs emacs ;)

    --
    liqbase :: faster than paper
  7. Re:Linux sNOBs by generic-man · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You RTFMed. I'm impressed. I've been told to RTFM when the FM is four versions out of date and filled with sections of "TODO: write this."

    Open Source software documentation reminds me of Wikipedia: read it for help, but if it's not written yet, write it then read it.

    Yes, I know the software comes with no warranty or support, but the notion of "you get what you pay for" is as strong as ever in many circles.

    --
    For more information, click here.
  8. Difference by GrAfFiT · · Score: 5, Insightful

    One huge difference is that the Microsoft tech support guys are paid to listen to your stupidities. You are a lot more patient and understanding when you're paid.

    1. Re: Difference by Black+Parrot · · Score: 4, Insightful

      > One huge difference is that the Microsoft tech support guys are paid to listen to your stupidities.

      Yep. In internet forums some Linuxers will tell you to RTFM, and some Windowsers will tell you they don't consult for free. I don't see a heck of a lot of difference in the net effect.

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
  9. Good call. by darkitecture · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Good call.

    God knows how long I put off learning the ins and outs of Linux distros because of the Linux catch-22: Linux sackriders go on about the superiority of Linux and insist that you're still living in the Dark Ages if you're using Windows, yet if you even feign interest in wanting to learn and perhaps getting some guidance from them, they shun you for being a newbie.

    Thank God I'm stubborn and like reading enough that I gorged myself on dozens upon dozens of books so as I had a large enough Linux vocabulary to 'fake it' and subsequently was 'accepted' into certain online Linux cliques. I was then 'allowed' to ask questions and thus was no longer 'out of the loop.'

    Seriously, if people are so adamant about making other people aware of the advantages of Linux then for crying out loud, help them learn or at the very least, point them in the right direction. Don't smack them upside the head for not knowing. It's one thing to be a Linux pusher, trying to convince Windows users to try out the alternatives, it's another thing to be a Linux snob and to shun people for not-knowing-yet-wanting-to-know.

    I personally don't have enough patience to teach too many people about Linux, especially from scratch. So what do I do when someone asks me about it or wants to learn about it? I give them a whole bunch of useful e-books and related reading materal on CD and tell them to start by taking a bite out of that. I also give them a copy of whatever easy distro I have laying around and tell them to install it on a second computer and just 'play' with it. Then if they're still interested, they've got a decent enough foundation for me (ore more likely someone with more patience) to have a crack at enlightening them further.

  10. The correct way to ask a Linux user a question by xIcemanx · · Score: 5, Funny

    Certainly not: 'As I spoke to newbies, one Windows user who wanted to learn about Linux shared the encouraging and constructive note (not) he received from one of the project members. The responding note read: "Hi jackass, RTFM and stop wasting our time trying to help you children learn.""

    Just do what this guy does and you'll be fine.

  11. I've been saying this for YEARS! by fudgefactor7 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    And every time I mentioned it in the past I got my ass handed to me on a plate. I've asked questions in forums, emailed software maintainers, and done the RTFM, and read the FAQs. And sometimes there are no answers, yet you get the same old "RTFM, n00b" answer, followed by "STFU." Nice. It also doesn't help that some of the documentation on TLDP.org is out of date--which is one step away from being outright wrong when dealing with rapidly changing software. If Linux wants more users (or OSS in general) you need to (1) fix the documentation so that it's always up to date to the newest version; and, (2) fix the culture of the dipshits that are out there. If they don't want to help, that's fine; but to hear over and over again the same unhelpful advise is only shooting your cause in the foot.

    Do I care that this will cost me Karma? Nope. You've had it coming, and I've lost Karma before on this so ....

  12. the tinkerer mentality is needed by lyapunov · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I landed a job as UNIX admin from learning UNIX out of necessity and then as a hobby. When I got out of the military and started to school I purchased a computer so I would not have to work in school labs. My mathematics degree required two core CS classes, algorithms and data structures and the CS department uses Linux. So rather than piss and moan I purchased another hard drive and dual booted my machine. The reason that I purchased another hard drive is so that I could revert because I knew that I was not going to get it right the first few times. After being able, to once again do my homeword at home, I spent another 6 months getting my printer to work. It was an Deskjet 612 that used the printing performance architecture (PPA) drivers that some guy in Oregon reverse engineered with little or no help from HP. I figured if he had the wherewithall to accomplish that I should be able to at least get it working.

    I spent many hours reading books on Linux in general, and countless hours browsing the web for help on UNIX printing. Wound up switching to CUPS, when it was fairly new, and managed to get it working. It was a lot of work and the only reason that I was able to do it was that I had the attitude that the "machine is not going to win."

    Most people want everything handed to them, and if you do not have a self started attitude UNIX is fairly intimidating.
    The quote that I developed about Microsoft and Bill Gates is this:

    "Bill Gates brought computing to the masses, pity they weren't ready for it."

    --

    Either give it away or get top dollar, but never sell yourself cheap.
    1. Re:the tinkerer mentality is needed by alexo · · Score: 5, Interesting

      lyapunov wrote:
      > Most people want everything handed to them, and if you do not have a self started attitude UNIX is fairly intimidating.

      No, my friend. Most people want their computer to work, just like any other appliance.

      Most people use cars to get them and their families from point A to point B. Those that supercharge their engines, lower the suspension, etc. are a tiny minority.
      Same goes for VCRs, dishwashers, telephones, etc. They are supposed to make our lives simpler by saving us time and allowing us to spend it on things we consider more important.

      How is a computer different?
      People want to communicate, shop, pay bills and trade online, play games, read news, work, organize their photo albums, balance their budgets and many other things a computer is suitable for. They rarely want to spend huge significant time and effort just to be able to do that.

      > I spent another 6 months getting my printer to work.

      Your perseverance is commendable but are you sure that it was the best use of a 6 months time?

  13. Bizarre by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    At this point I was accused of "bitching about service provided for free" and "its a wiki, feel free to contribute and edit it".

    I've gotten that too. It's very strange. I'm looking in the Wiki because I don't know the answer. When I see the answer isn't there, I'm not the person you want to edit it. What am I supposed to do, write down how I'd *like* it to work?

    I'm not sure what kind of person Linux snobs think they're dealing with. Snobs seem to assume that ordinary users aren't asking questions because they want to know the answers, but because they want to catch the snobs in a mistake. I wonder what social group interacts that way. Oh, geeks. Right.

    1. Re:Bizarre by Alioth · · Score: 4, Funny

      I've been doing Linux since January 1992. But I don't know everything.

      I've found the best way to deal with the snobs - and get a useful answer - is this. Don't just ask "I've googled for it already, but I can't find a way of doing foo with bar". All this will yield is "Well google harder" kind of responses.

      Instead, say something like "On Windows, it's really easy to do foo with bar, but it's completely impossible under Linux! This is awful!". You will immediately be deluged with indignant responses telling you exactly how to do whatever it was you were trying to accomplish rather than an RTFM brush-off.

  14. Jesus Christ, this post is all Linux porn innuendo by AEton · · Score: 5, Funny
    Dear Penthouse Forum,
    My freshman year (2000) in college started with me not knowing what a "linux" was. This all changed when a friend encouraged me to repartition my hard drive and install this next to my installation. I ended up doing fresh installs and getting the dual boot to work.

    The next day in class, the guy couldn't get me to shut up about how great it was.

    My first college kegger could not compare to the first time I ran Linux. Nor would a kegger ever be as memorable.

    Ok, so my first encounter with Linux people working against Linux people in a childish d*ck measuring contest. To my horror, I overheard the following conversation thereafter ensue between him and a person in the class looking for a Linux installation experience:

    Student B: "I use Windows and I'm confused even as where to start..."
    Student A: "That's easy, just install Gentoo."
    Student B: "I ... Where do I get a disc for that?"
    Student A: "They're freely online, you just have to find them and install them. And with Gentoo, you can just emerge whenever you want."
    Student B: "'Emerge'--what does that mean?"

    When I got home, I tried to install Gentoo. It took forever, I hit a million snags but eventually got it working. I hated it. After talking again to them, Student A revealed that he spent every Sunday night "emerging."

    Luckily, I intevened and gave him something close. I told him all the cautionary advice I had to give and I feel that he most closely identified with me.

    The truth is: not all Linux experiences are for everybody.


    Love and kisses,
    esr
    --
    We recently had heard in the office over one of the Yellow Machine that's made by Anthology Solutions.
  15. I can speak from embarassment more than anything by erroneus · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I know of a few people who can attest to the same scenario repeating itself as well. I am scratching my head over a problem I am experiencing. Seems nothing I do will work and nothing I have read to that point addresses the issue I am experiencing. What do I do? I post of a forum. I try to be as detailed as possible. Listing what I've tried and the results I get from it. Listing all the symptoms I have identified until the moment of posting.

    No sooner do I post the question than I find the answer myself since I never stopped looking for answers elsewhere. So then I am faced with the question: Should I attempt to retract my posting or should I reply to my own question with the solution? Most of the time, I decide to do the later. Even though it makes me seem like an idiot answering my own question, I am always hopeful that someone else asks the same question but doesn't find the answer on their own.

    The forum I frequent most is the Fedora forum and, frankly, I see no evidence of snobbery on there. So I guess perhaps the answer is to direct people to the forums that are most suited to the users with questions. I know from previous experience that the IRC bullies out there use IRC as a means to maintain a level of social dominance and treat channels like territory. Clearly, they have their own issues to sort out and are best left alone.

  16. This has been true for many years... by Malor · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This has been true for as long as I can remember. If the software is inadequate or confusing, blame the user. It's happened to me, even here on Slashdot.

    Way back in the stone age.... sometime in 1997, maybe? Maybe 1998. Not sure. Anyway... Linux was _just_ starting to get deployed occasionally in business. I had a couple of DNS servers up on an early RedHat box. The box lost power... these were just desktop machines sitting in someone's cubicle. (We hadn't grown to the point of needing 'real' servers quite yet, and an actual server room was a year off.) My primary box took a LOT of filesystem damage, and it took me ages to fix it. So I commented in a slashdot thread that ext2 was very fragile, and that it was one of Linux's real weak points.

    You just wouldn't believe the crap I got. Slashdot doesn't seem to archive that far back, so I can't give you links, but _most_ of the replies I got blamed me for being stupid. I "should have used a UPS"... ok, I could grant that, but remember we were a shoestring outfit, and we didn't need those on Windows servers. A couple people went off on me for, get this, not knowing how to use a disk editor to find my secondary superblocks and repair with those. I kid you not. Linux was perfect, and ANYTHING that went wrong was obviously the user's fault... to the point that I should know how to manually repair my filesystem. Instead of admitting that the filesystem should survive a power failure, it was my fault for breaking it.

    Several years later, after Reiserfs and ext3 came out, we had a similar conversation, also here on Slashdot. Suddenly everyone is all about how great the journaling filesystems are, and how bad ext2 sucks. It was probably even some of the same people, but the original conversation had already been lost, so I couldn't prove it.

    People just will NOT criticize software they're emotionally involved with. It's the most ridiculous thing I've seen... these theoretically intelligent, rational software designers that become absolutely insane when you suggest their software is imperfect. Blame the user! "You're just too stupid to use our software. Go away."

    Fortunately, there's enough people in the Linux community now that the lunatic fringe doesn't dominate quite like it did, but these people are still out there.

    It was ridiculous then, and it's just as ridiculous now. It doesn't happen as much, but it still sucks.

  17. Re:Linux sNOBs by timeOday · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This whole argument is stupid. People do flame each other, it's just a fact. We could just as well sit around and wring our hands that the Internet would be more popular if the "online community" would just be more friendly and all the pedophiles and spammers would mend their ways. It's true, but it's also a rather pointless discussion.

  18. Re:RTFM! by Theatetus · · Score: 4, Informative
    For example, say I want to learn how to do something using the command line. Googling a phrase that describes what I want to do rarely yields optimal results. Since I don't know what the command is, I can't type "man thing I want to do".

    Read man's man page some time. the -k option is like the apropos command (another thing you should look into), it searches for the word you supply in the title and description of all the manual pages. So man -k format shows you all the pages that have the word "format" in their title or short description. If that still doesn't show you what you need, man -K "some arbitrary string" does a full-text search of the entire manual for "some arbitrary string".

    I'm not ragging you for this or anything, I'm just amazed at how few people actually read man's man page.

    --
    All's true that is mistrusted
  19. How To Ask Questions The Smart Way by MrEcho.net · · Score: 4, Insightful

    http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
    Before asking a technical question by e-mail, or in a newsgroup, or on a website chat board, do the following:

    1. Try to find an answer by searching the Web.
    2. Try to find an answer by reading the manual.
    3. Try to find an answer by reading a FAQ.
    4. Try to find an answer by inspection or experimentation.
    5. Try to find an answer by asking a skilled friend.
    6. If you're a programmer, try to find an answer by reading the source code.

    I might be marked down because of this.
    But what I see day to day in the IRC, very few new people do these very simple things.
    This is why we go off on them, they dont even try to find the answer on there own.

  20. I can tell you why by dereference · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Service and products; products and service. They should go together, hand it hand, but they don't. The problem is that, in their arrogance, the open source developers often believe that they've toiled long and hard to create a great product. The product does what they believe it should, and they can't be bothered if you think it should work differently. Recall some of the earlier MySQL documentation that said, basically, "if you need the database to enforce referential integrity, your application is crap so you need to fix your application or use another database..."

    The attitude is prevalent, and ignores completely the service aspect of providing a positive customer experience. You might have the greatest product in the world, but if nobody can install it or configure it, then it's really quite worthless. Sure, the "target audience" can figure it out, but all to often the target audience is just the myopic developer, and everybody else who is exactly like him/her. Oddly enough, this planet has a great many inhabitants who might gain benefit from the great software product, if only the creator bothered to consider even passable service to go along with it.

    I'll blatantly link to my own comment thread from another story just a couple days ago, which is exactly on this same topic. There I was flamed for suggesting that having good service is just as important as having a good product, and that there is a large range between the "I'll do anything if you pay me" attitude and the "if you don't like it my way get lost" attitude.

    By the way, I highly doubt it is only the Linux/FOSS community, but it does seem disproportionate; if nothing else, given that it's a smaller community, finding the odd non-snob is somewhat more difficult.

  21. UNIX once was a revolt against snobbery by Latent+Heat · · Score: 4, Informative
    I believe that the issue isn't Linux for FOSS as such but a lot of the culture and history behind UNIX. UNIX of course was as commercial a product as anything else, but Torvald, Stallman, and the rest of the FOSS community decided on patterning their offering after UNIX and hence inherited a lot of the cultural legacy.

    UNIX was in a way a revolt against the snobbery of the mainframe culture. UNIX was named in contrast with MULTICS -- MULTICS was this massive time-sharing mainframe OS coming out of MIT which was supposed to have all kinds of whizbang security and protection features. UNIX was to be the single-user (at least initially) "personal" counterpart to the time-sharing Borg hive of MULTICS. UNIX ran on a PDP 11 minicomputer while MULTICS required a ponderous Burroughs mainframe.

    The MS-DOS PC along with the Windows follow-on was a revolt against UNIX. UNIX had become the OS of choice for VAXen and had become the ossified mainframe OS of its day against which the PC was the revolt.

    I don't think you will have people who are complete noobs having any issues with a *nix -- people are perfectly happy with OS-X. The people you will have trouble with are the people who cut their teeth on DOS and later Windows, who have memories of what they went through in the VAX days, and any hint of inadvertent condensension from Linux gurus is enough to give them flashbacks of their old tormenters.

  22. And newbies are your best friend... by ndykman · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Seriously. Apple and yes even Microsoft (don't laugh!) has had lots of success in listening to non-technical users and trying to meet there needs. Both companies get users in front of software, ask them to use it, ask them questions, and learn from them. Now, they all fall short (it's hard to meet everybody's demands), but they know that the simplest questions can lead to great insights and opportunities.

    If a user can't figure out how to do something, that is a problem to be dealt with. The reason that MS is overhauling Office 2007 so radically is based on user feedback and studies. Granted, it may not work, but if it does, it will keep Office on top of the heap (and may lead to some interesting ideas in other applications). When a user has a hard time doing something, it is a chance to make something better, more effective, and maybe, just maybe, to learn something new.

    The problem is that too many open source projects seem to exist to reinforce one's view on what software should be and must be. So, negative feedback is just reinforcement that the developers "really get it", and that these "newbies" don't. After all, why bother making software anybody can use? If the cool people are using it, and want to join the club, what else do you want? How better to prove you are smarter, better, more of a hacker, whatever than to make people jump through hoops to provide they have what it takes.

    I think OS projects have done a good job in attracting coders and developers, but sometimes, it takes more than that to make a successful piece of software, and too many projects suffer from a myopic mindset of what makes a piece of software work or not.

    Finally, I think too many people have a overdeveloped sense of superiority from the mere fact that they use an a particular OS, browser, tool, etc. Sure, it's understandable, but meanwhile, there are tons of people that just want to do something at work or at home, and could care less if the software is open source or not, because it doesn't add any value for them. And until this mindset is address, the RTFM responses will continue.

  23. Bravo! But... by Captain+Sarcastic · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I agree wholeheartedly with you. I've had my share of "gorilla gurus" who are not above intellectual bullying when someone asks a question.

    I am reminded of the attitudes displayed in Ray Bradbury's story "The Other Foot," in which (for those who may not recall) a town full of black people who emigrated to Mars en masse shortly before World War III find out that they will be receiving white refugees. Their immediate impulse is to start putting "Blacks Only" signs on restaurants and hotels, thus re-creating the situation that they had fled years before, only with themselves at the top.

    Many of these "gorilla gurus" have most likely been on the receiving end of derision and scorn for not working with Windows, and have also either been given the same treatment when they started learning about Linux. It becomes like the geek version of the stereotypical fraternity, where these people associate poor manners with the rights of the "initiated," and now that they find themselves in a position of relative power are prepared to make those under them pay and pay and pay.

    So much for a possible cause. A solution? Perhaps reminding these people that the same attitudes pervaded the Commodore 64 user groups... and where are they now?

    --
    Strike while the irony is hot! -- The Freethinker
  24. Culture of Hazing by catdevnull · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Entering the Linux world reminded me very much of my experience in the Marine Corps.

    You're introduced with verbal abuse and treated like a complete sub-human moron. Then, you gradually get promoted and you pass on the tradition of bashing newbies.

    As with any "geeky" culture, the Linux crowd has a tendency to attract people with some issues:

      -socially challenged individuals ignorant or apathetic toward others
      -marginalized zealots of a "cult" technology (misunderstood or cast aside by the dominant paradigm)
      -insecure, passive-aggressive people with a chip on their shoulder

    Not all Linux-heads are like this, but like religious fanatics, it only takes one or two loudmouths to misrepresent the whole movement to newcomers or outsiders.

    Now, if you want to reply with a flame or you feel a little defensive about what I've typed here, you might want to evaluate the motives behind your emotional response. I'm not talking about everyone in the linux community, I'm just making an observation about the types of people I've worked with in IT and the linux community over the last 15 years and these are some tendencies of my own as well as those around me. Some, if not most, are helpful and encouraging.

    If you're one of those jerks (I've seen alot of them here on Slashdot), get help. Learn to be patient. Don't continue the chain of abuse, grasshopper.

    --

    I might know what I'm talkin' about, but then again, this is Slashdot...
  25. Let me generalize your statement for all zealots. by Valdrax · · Score: 4, Insightful

    [Devotees] just will NOT criticize [anything] they're emotionally involved with. It's the most ridiculous thing I've seen... these theoretically intelligent, rational [people] that become absolutely insane when you suggest [the object of their affection] is imperfect.

    This more generalized statement applies not just to software, but to politics, religion, sports teams, brands of cars, etc., etc. Nationalists, religious zealots, OS zealots, hardcore fans, etc. are all the same kind of person -- someone who cannot handle objectivel criticism of something they love because they think that criticism and disdain are equal. They have a "mommy is never wrong" kind of love instead of a "my kid's not perfect, but I'm still proud of him" attitude.

    These people drive me insane in every arena of life that I encounter them in.

    --
    If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
  26. Re:Linux sNOBs by qw(name) · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It is not snobbish and snubbish to tell someone to RTFM. It is snobbish and snubbish to tell someone to RTFM without telling where to RTFM.

    In a way, I think the very acronym, RTFM, is snobbish but that's just from a person who was deeply involved in the OS Wars in the mid to late 90's.

    When people who are new to a discussion group or IRC channel ask a simple (to the experienced) question and receive a RTFM response, they can be quite offended by the apparent harsh reaction. They see Read The F'ing Manual and think, "How rude! What a bunch of snobs" and don't ask again or they become defensive and respond in kind.

    Whether experienced people know that RTFM is a casual response or not is irrelavant. The new guy doesn't know that will more than likely be offended. That, IMO, is a barrier to people migrating to Linux (or any other OS for that matter).

  27. Re:Linux sNOBs by PFI_Optix · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It is not snobbish and snubbish to tell someone to RTFM. It is snobbish and snubbish to tell someone to RTFM without telling where to RTFM.

    "RTFM" is still a response which turns off users and sends them back to Windows. I'm very much a Linux newbie myself, but when someone asks a simple question that I can answer and know where to find it in the documentation, I give them both.

    Someone asks how to get a directory listing in the command line. You could:

    a) tell them to RTFM

    b) copy and paste the entire FM so they don't have to do any work

    c) Tell them that the command is "ls", and then tell them where to look for more information on switches and such.

    Option A shrinks the Linux user base. Option B does not encourage the poster to learn how to find answers for themselves. Option C gives them a quick answer to their question and tells them where to find more information.

    --
    120 characters for a sig? That's bloody useless.
  28. Re:Linux sNOBs by IMightB · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I completely agree. Anyone with enough experience with computers knows that if you give people that are relatively new to them whether it be windows or linux, a complete hand holding . They will take advantage of you even for the smallest of things, things that you have explained 2-3 times already. I'm a patient person, and early on was taken advantage of alot like this. Now, my rule is the first time you ask me something, I'll explain it step by step or sit down with them and show them how to do it, and give URL's or notes or something to help that person out. Second time the same question is asked, I'll try to explain it a different way, use different analogies etc. If they ask me a third time, I'm like "WTF I've told you twice, why didn't you take notes? I gave you links, documents etc to help you out.", and I'll explain it again. Fourth time: RTFM

    Now I may be a little "more" patient than some. When I started out with linux, I pretty much always would google, browse list archives, etc. BEFORE I would post my question, and when I did eventually post my question, I would include steps of what I have done already, the lists I have browsed, and the parts of the docs that I didn't really understand.

    This technique has, 99.9% of the time, let to helpful answers, and not just responses like RTFM.

    Questions from people where it is blatantly obvious they have done none of the aforementioned steps piss people off. My favorite questions to ignore are the ones where it is obvious that they haven't read the docs, and want step by step hand holding, as if it is their right as a newbie to not have to research anything, they typically go something like this: "I want to setup my webserver, I'm a newbie and just want step by step instructions, I don't have time to RTFM, or search google. I have posted this question before and all I got was RTFM, or no response. I need it done now for my job, it's an emergency! What is up with all these rude people out in linux land?"

  29. Re:Linux sNOBs by azhrei_fje · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Part of the problem is when a n00b goes to a developer forum and asks questions that are not development questions.

    This happened to me. I was interested in hacking my TiVo (standalone 540-series) which is pretty much unhackable without a PROM modification. But I had managed to look through some of the files that I'd copied off the TiVo hard drive and I had some questions about one of the file formats. I looked through the SeriesII forum as well as a lot of searching and didn't find the answers to my questions, so I posted. Big mistake. :(

    Please understand, I'm not new to Linux. I've been teaching a Linux Internals course for a few years now, as well as device driver development, kernel debugging, and so forth. I know a little bit about the Linux kernel. What I didn't know was the boot process used on the TiVo. I was slammed by the forum moderator ("RTFM in the Newbies section"). I thought I had done that, after already spending hours+hours of searching and reading posts that were too old to apply to my unit.

    Until... I went back to the newbie forum and read every one of the sticky articles and I found 80% of the information I was looking for (sigh). Part of the problem was that the newbie forum has about 15 sticky articles, some of them with 40 pages of posts in a single thread. Experience had taught me that most of those are too old to apply to my unit, so I would open the thread and jump to the last page, working backwards through the thread, to see if I could find something relevant. Well, the information was actually in the first few posts -- the community had been editing that post and updating it as time went by.

    My point to all this is that newbies often post in an area that is for developers; they should start with places like linuxquestions.org or other generic Q&A sites, then progress from there. The people that frequent those sites want to help others, not write code. They're the newbie's best chance of having their questions answered.

  30. Re:Hah, no kidding by trentblase · · Score: 4, Insightful
    But don't for a moment assume you are owed the privilege of support from them.

    I generally agree with you, but in this case they were in a support channel. If somebody sets up a support channel, it's reasonable to expect to get support there. At the very least, you deserve not to get berated.

  31. Why? by Dire+Bonobo · · Score: 5, Insightful

    > Most people want everything handed to them

    No - most people just don't care about computers all that much.

    Do you expect people to tinker with their cars?
    Do you expect people to tinker with their television's wiring?
    Do you expect people to tinker with their plumbing?

    Then why would you expect people to tinker with their computers? For most people, a computer is an appliance, and deserving of no more tinkering than a tv. You can whine about people being "not ready" for computers all you want, but that won't change the basic fact that mature technologies don't need to be babied to function properly.

    It isn't people that aren't ready; it's computers.

  32. Someone who's not a Linux Snob by Glamdrlng · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Someone who has always impressed me as a class act is Wietse Venema. When someone on the Postfix mailing list asks a question that's already answered in the man pages, his response is polite and concise: "The answer to your question can be found in the (postconf|postfix|postsuper) man page". It's a response that is neither insulting nor dismissive, and it shows that Wietse thought about your question long enough to determine which man page has the answer, and maybe even asked himself if the explanation in the man page is sufficient.

    --

    Yes, my only tool is a hammer. And you're starting to look like a nail.