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Linux Snobs, The Real Barriers to Entry
McSnarf writes "It's not Windows. It's not distro wars. Sometimes it's just the arrogant attitude that keeps people from switching from Windows.
'As I spoke to newbies, one Windows user who wanted to learn about Linux shared the encouraging and constructive note (not) he received from one of the project members. The responding note read:
"Hi jackass, RTFM and stop wasting our time trying to help you children learn.""
Well duh! Of course it's the arrogant users that are keeping people from trying Linux. That's precisely the reason why I use a Mac.
This guy's the limit!
All the best snob applications are on Windows, anyway.
-Eric
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
In my experience, I'd have to say this article is right on the money. While snobs can be encountered for just about any OS you care to name, the Linux snobs are particularly shrill. This shrillness may be attributed to a variety of causes, including social ineptitude, feelings of intellectual/moral/fiscal superority, attempted concealment of their own limited knowledge, etc., but there is just no excuse for this sort of behavior. Linux is first and foremost a collaborative effort, and by failing to live up to that ideal, Linux snobs subvert the very point of Linux itself.
Yes, it is true that the answers to your questions are out there...Linux does have copious documentation. But the fact of the matter is that a simple answer to a simple question can do much more than save the newbie hours of combing through MAN pages...it can also foster the sense of community that is the very lifeblood of Linux.
Linux users need to understand that when disillusioned Windows users come to them asking for help with Linux, they effectively become representatives of Linux...ambassadors, if you will...and they need to behave accordingly. Abusing new Linux users for their lack of knowledge, rather than helping them to learn more, only harms the cause.
Just remember....you were a n00b yourself once...
____
~ |rip/\/\aster /\/\onkey
I have been using Linux as my OS of choice for a year now and am willing to admit I'm far from being an experienced Linux user. The main thing that helped me when starting to use Linux was Google. If I didn't have Google I don't think I would have solved most of my problems. From what I have seen any problems that I had there where already tons of information out on the web answering these questions if you looked and didn't take the easy way out and post without even trying to search for it on the internet.
My freshman year (2000) in college started with me not knowing what a "linux" was. This all changed when a friend handed me a Debian distribution burned to an ISO. He encouraged me to repartition my hard drive and install this next to my Windows 98 SE installation. Like a lot of new people, I hosed my hard drive. I ended up doing fresh installs on both OS's and getting the dual boot to work. There were cheap little games and some truly great and historical open source software on that disc also. The next day in class, the guy couldn't get me to shut up about how great it was. I had hit a few snags but the answers were all online.
... Where do I get a disc for that?"
My first college kegger could not compare to the first time I ran Linux. Nor would a kegger ever be as memorable. A free operating system? That works?
A year or two later, I'm in a new class. There's a kid sitting in front of me going on and on about Linux. Up to this point, I've used Debian, Mandrake & Red Hat so I drop a question out there:
Me: "I really like Mandrake, what do you think is the best distribution?"
Student A: "It's obviously Gentoo."
Me: "Gentoo? I haven't even heard of that one..."
Student A: "Well, it's clearly the superior distribution."
Ok, so my first encounter with Linux people working against Linux people in a childish d*ck measuring contest. To my horror, I overheard the following conversation thereafter ensue between him and a person in the class looking for a Linux installation experience:
Student B: "I use Windows and I'm confused even as where to start..."
Student A: "That's easy, just install Gentoo."
Student B: "I
Student A: "They're freely online, you just have to find them and install them--I recommend an ftp install so that you get the latest versions of everything. And with Gentoo, you can just emerge whenever you want to update. "
Student B: "'Emerge'--what does that mean?"
Student A: *snorts* "If I have to tell you, there's no point in you even getting Linux."
And on it went, with Student A asserting his superiority. When I got home, I tried to install Gentoo. It took forever, I hit a million snags but eventually got it working. I hated it. After talking again to them, the only reason Student A was using Gentoo was because he had some crazy chipset he needed to compile everything for (a dual AMD setup which was rare back then) and he also revealed that he spent every Sunday night "emerging."
Luckily, I intevened with Mandrake and gave him something close to Windows that an idiot probably could install. I told him all the cautionary advice I had to give and I feel that he most closely identified with me.
The truth is: not all Linux experiences are for everybody.
My work here is dung.
Astounding. You've taken a sane, logical article and replied to it in the exact illogical, impassioned manner it criticizes. You, sir, are a poster child for a Linux snob. The article encourages you to stop talking, essentially. Read it again, because it is wholly and entirely accurate.
My story, aside from parent: I'm trying to install Mailman a year or so back. I have a base Debian install. I'm stuck. I RTFM. It's not that I can't, or that I don't want to, it's that I quite simply don't understand what it's telling me to do. I don't know what an Exim director is, and the manual thingy doesn't really care to say, only that I need to configure Mailman to work with it. (Since then, it's been updated to be a bit more descriptive. I just checked.)
So, I ask. The response? A snub. Worded from a community member to a third person for me to read: "Maybe the problem isn't Mailman or any of the other awesome software he's running, it's the user not reading all the available documentation."
I note that I read it, but I don't understand it. No response at all.
These days, I have one Debian box with ZoneMinder and Mailman sitting here and everything else is still Windows. I'm quite happy with that.
ACs are modded -6. I don't read you, I don't mod you, I don't see you. Don't like it? Don't be a coward.
What I have found is that there are really tough question in the Linux world or just common mistakes. Sometimes these questions are repeated many times but there may be a reason the questions are asked over and over again. When I use the popular search engine Google to fetch the answer to a question I have, the first hundred results are usually some chat thread with my question being asked and some brilliant and insightful genius replies back with the comment to just use Google. Even better, you can go read a chat thread and it has 20 pages of 20 entries and another brilliant and insightful genius replies back sating he already answered the question and to use the search function to get the answer. What is bad, the question usually fall to the side since the rest of the group thinks it has been answered satisfactorily.
You know, I just can't imagine why anyone would call Linux users snobs.
-Eric
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
It's good job security!
No nOObs is good BOOBs
This article seems as much flamebait as anything.
;)
I read through and a lot of what he was describing sounded like listening to the anonymous cowards on here.
Asking a Mac user which is the best operating system will result in one answer, asking a linux user to discuss the various distros is another.
Audiophiles will deride a newbie for asking silly questions, gamers will take the piss out of n00bs for aiming wrong or asking about the best weapons, hell even office staff will give you a 10 minute diorama about their red stapler, but if you ask them what the differences are they will fly off at the handle.
Nobody knows about all the distros or databases and theres not really a one size fits all solution so people get embedded in their current system.
Sounds like he just found people on their off days, but I agree with the general article contents - it extends to all walks of life and multiple subjects.
And I've not even touched on vi vs emacs
liqbase
You RTFMed. I'm impressed. I've been told to RTFM when the FM is four versions out of date and filled with sections of "TODO: write this."
Open Source software documentation reminds me of Wikipedia: read it for help, but if it's not written yet, write it then read it.
Yes, I know the software comes with no warranty or support, but the notion of "you get what you pay for" is as strong as ever in many circles.
For more information, click here.
Could this post be any more obvious a troll?
Move along - yada, yada, yada.
Here will be an old abusing of God's patience and the king's English.
One huge difference is that the Microsoft tech support guys are paid to listen to your stupidities. You are a lot more patient and understanding when you're paid.
Good call.
God knows how long I put off learning the ins and outs of Linux distros because of the Linux catch-22: Linux sackriders go on about the superiority of Linux and insist that you're still living in the Dark Ages if you're using Windows, yet if you even feign interest in wanting to learn and perhaps getting some guidance from them, they shun you for being a newbie.
Thank God I'm stubborn and like reading enough that I gorged myself on dozens upon dozens of books so as I had a large enough Linux vocabulary to 'fake it' and subsequently was 'accepted' into certain online Linux cliques. I was then 'allowed' to ask questions and thus was no longer 'out of the loop.'
Seriously, if people are so adamant about making other people aware of the advantages of Linux then for crying out loud, help them learn or at the very least, point them in the right direction. Don't smack them upside the head for not knowing. It's one thing to be a Linux pusher, trying to convince Windows users to try out the alternatives, it's another thing to be a Linux snob and to shun people for not-knowing-yet-wanting-to-know.
I personally don't have enough patience to teach too many people about Linux, especially from scratch. So what do I do when someone asks me about it or wants to learn about it? I give them a whole bunch of useful e-books and related reading materal on CD and tell them to start by taking a bite out of that. I also give them a copy of whatever easy distro I have laying around and tell them to install it on a second computer and just 'play' with it. Then if they're still interested, they've got a decent enough foundation for me (ore more likely someone with more patience) to have a crack at enlightening them further.
Certainly not: 'As I spoke to newbies, one Windows user who wanted to learn about Linux shared the encouraging and constructive note (not) he received from one of the project members. The responding note read: "Hi jackass, RTFM and stop wasting our time trying to help you children learn.""
Just do what this guy does and you'll be fine.
And every time I mentioned it in the past I got my ass handed to me on a plate. I've asked questions in forums, emailed software maintainers, and done the RTFM, and read the FAQs. And sometimes there are no answers, yet you get the same old "RTFM, n00b" answer, followed by "STFU." Nice. It also doesn't help that some of the documentation on TLDP.org is out of date--which is one step away from being outright wrong when dealing with rapidly changing software. If Linux wants more users (or OSS in general) you need to (1) fix the documentation so that it's always up to date to the newest version; and, (2) fix the culture of the dipshits that are out there. If they don't want to help, that's fine; but to hear over and over again the same unhelpful advise is only shooting your cause in the foot.
....
Do I care that this will cost me Karma? Nope. You've had it coming, and I've lost Karma before on this so
Everyone starts out as a newbie at one time -- sorry to burst the bubble of those of you who thought you were imbued with the power of the Linux kernel neo-natally. I remember when I first got into computers back in the TRS-80 era and went to college only to discover there was a whole other side to computers you didn't see in Popular Electronics. I learned C and Unix, and now all these years later I've learned Perl and begun absorbing Linux. I'm not the smartest guy on the block, but I'm also not Gomer Pyle, Web Developer.
I've noticed a tendency for those steeped in the mystique of Linux to see anyone with an opinion contrary to theirs as some kind of infidel, interloper, or at worst, lower that your average lawyer. You dare not point out flaws in logic or try to compare two distributions, lest you incur the wrath of "the gods." A perfect example is my comments yesterday about whether Linux should use proprietary drivers. My idea is that yes, it sounds like a good idea, until reverse engineered equivalents are available or someone comes along and starts a graphics company that uses open source exclusively for their drivers. Seems logical enough and the moderators agreed. But some folks thought I was ignorant:
But let me clue you in on something. Torvald's motto of "world domination", is a joke! He isn't being serious! I'm sorry you didn't understand this before, but now you do.
Or that I was suggesting the wholesale destruction of Liunx:
No, if making Linux non-free is the only way to develop greater market share, then you can keep it, binary drivers and all. I'll take freedom, thank you.
I'm sorry to say that some in the Linux community seems to become more insular as each year passes, which is a shame because there are so many great people pushing it. Linux is a great operating system, works well for just about anything you need. It could eat away at Windows' advantage in the marketplace with just some tweaks to make it so easy to install and run that Joe Average doesn't think twice about it. But if the more fanatic members of the community keep treating every new person with a new idea or new question like some kind of pariah, Linux will remain just another operating system.
GetOuttaMySpace - The Anti-Social Network
However, to universally blame the help provider is completely wrong. The asker may be intruding. The asker may be insufficiently respectful or remunerative in other ways.
Beggars cannot be choosers.
There are assholes in every camp. I'm sure I can just as easily find Windows and MacOS snobs [well the latter is a given].
I've personally helped a half dozen people switch to Gentoo. Not all of us are meanies [though I play one on TV].
This article is pure flamebait.
Tom
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
While I agree that there are a few elitists out there, I'd hardly say that the vast majority of linux users are snobs who won't give non-nix guys the time of day. The only reason I ever got into linux in the first place was because one such "snob" took the time to sit me down, help me install debian on my machine, and then walked me through setting things up, installing programs and even (and this one still surprises me to this day) recompiling my kernel. Now that I know how difficult it can be to explain a lot of this stuff to a non-nix person, I appreciate the time he spent explaining things to me that much more. I don't think he was an oddity in the field either, since most people I've met or have chatted with are more than willing to share their knowledge and help problem solve. I've found that that is a lot of the fun of linux: Figuring out how to fix something that goes wrong. There's nothing more satisfying than having someone come to you with a problem and seeing that rediculous amount of satisfaction on their faces when you finally are able to figure it out.
Granted, there are those nix users who don't want to lend a helping hand or will look down on anyone asking about something they see as "obvious" or something that even a "n00b" should know. However, you find a few of those wherever you go no matter what OS or software you use, Microsoft products included.
Are there community awards to award portions of the linux world that do provide outstanding support?
I landed a job as UNIX admin from learning UNIX out of necessity and then as a hobby. When I got out of the military and started to school I purchased a computer so I would not have to work in school labs. My mathematics degree required two core CS classes, algorithms and data structures and the CS department uses Linux. So rather than piss and moan I purchased another hard drive and dual booted my machine. The reason that I purchased another hard drive is so that I could revert because I knew that I was not going to get it right the first few times. After being able, to once again do my homeword at home, I spent another 6 months getting my printer to work. It was an Deskjet 612 that used the printing performance architecture (PPA) drivers that some guy in Oregon reverse engineered with little or no help from HP. I figured if he had the wherewithall to accomplish that I should be able to at least get it working.
I spent many hours reading books on Linux in general, and countless hours browsing the web for help on UNIX printing. Wound up switching to CUPS, when it was fairly new, and managed to get it working. It was a lot of work and the only reason that I was able to do it was that I had the attitude that the "machine is not going to win."
Most people want everything handed to them, and if you do not have a self started attitude UNIX is fairly intimidating.
The quote that I developed about Microsoft and Bill Gates is this:
"Bill Gates brought computing to the masses, pity they weren't ready for it."
Either give it away or get top dollar, but never sell yourself cheap.
Honestly, you'd probably get a much more helpful reply on the mailing list.
You make the assumption that most documentation out there is well-written and easy to understand, without making hundreds of obscure references or alienating new users with obtuse language. The reality is that most people who write documentation, unfortunately, especially for OSS, are not good writers, good speakers, or good teachers.
If you find a particular piece of documentation useful, that's great. It served its purpose. But keep in mind that you and the author might be on the same unnaturally inhuman wavelength, and that "real" people will have a bit of difficulty deciphering the author's meaning.
At this point I was accused of "bitching about service provided for free" and "its a wiki, feel free to contribute and edit it".
I've gotten that too. It's very strange. I'm looking in the Wiki because I don't know the answer. When I see the answer isn't there, I'm not the person you want to edit it. What am I supposed to do, write down how I'd *like* it to work?
I'm not sure what kind of person Linux snobs think they're dealing with. Snobs seem to assume that ordinary users aren't asking questions because they want to know the answers, but because they want to catch the snobs in a mistake. I wonder what social group interacts that way. Oh, geeks. Right.
I try to read as much documentation as I can. I also try to help out other newbies by giving them answers (if I know the answer), and also where you can find the answer (in the documentation).
I think this helps them out by giving them a good answer but then also showing them how to find other answers on their own.
After all, knowledge is meant to be shared.
in girum imus nocte et consumimur igni
I couldn't agree more.
I can't think of a successful industry, anywhere that doesn't invest a significant (if not major) portion of time to new customer acquisition. The word "Newbies" all by itself, reflects a culture hostile to new blood.
Its amazing when you compare Linux culture to Mac culture which almost resembles a cult in its "love-bombing" approach to new members.
------ The best brain training is now totally free : )
Nearly every site that aims to be helpful in learning linux is not. It often has references, without links, to utilities you have to scour the internet to find. The people who aim to help never begin at a point where someone who knows little to nothing about linux can begin.
Where is THE linux documentation? (if you're going to say man pages, please don't)
The Admin and the Engineer
"If Linux snobs where a problem with the wider adoption of Linux then people who are interested in buying Ford or Dodge trucks would be put off by the hostility that each side has towards the other, etc. But yet there are millions of Ford and Dodge truck owners."
I hate car analogies. I hate analogies in general, but car analogies are always among the worst. Yours is an example.
People usually know how to operate a car when they buy it. The same is not true of Linux.
Do you see now why your analogy is so terrible?
"The government grants you rights, not the other way around."-- beav007. Yes, these people really exist...
Love and kisses,
esr
We recently had heard in the office over one of the Yellow Machine that's made by Anthology Solutions.
I know of a few people who can attest to the same scenario repeating itself as well. I am scratching my head over a problem I am experiencing. Seems nothing I do will work and nothing I have read to that point addresses the issue I am experiencing. What do I do? I post of a forum. I try to be as detailed as possible. Listing what I've tried and the results I get from it. Listing all the symptoms I have identified until the moment of posting.
No sooner do I post the question than I find the answer myself since I never stopped looking for answers elsewhere. So then I am faced with the question: Should I attempt to retract my posting or should I reply to my own question with the solution? Most of the time, I decide to do the later. Even though it makes me seem like an idiot answering my own question, I am always hopeful that someone else asks the same question but doesn't find the answer on their own.
The forum I frequent most is the Fedora forum and, frankly, I see no evidence of snobbery on there. So I guess perhaps the answer is to direct people to the forums that are most suited to the users with questions. I know from previous experience that the IRC bullies out there use IRC as a means to maintain a level of social dominance and treat channels like territory. Clearly, they have their own issues to sort out and are best left alone.
Which is why Gentoo is the best distro. Sure, it has an aura of snobbery, but generally speaking the users themselves are not snobs. And the manuals are extremely easy to understand. Though it takes some time and typing to use Gentoo, it's very easy to use otherwise, because everything is spelled out. http://gentoo.org/ http://www.gentoo-wiki.com/
This has been true for as long as I can remember. If the software is inadequate or confusing, blame the user. It's happened to me, even here on Slashdot.
Way back in the stone age.... sometime in 1997, maybe? Maybe 1998. Not sure. Anyway... Linux was _just_ starting to get deployed occasionally in business. I had a couple of DNS servers up on an early RedHat box. The box lost power... these were just desktop machines sitting in someone's cubicle. (We hadn't grown to the point of needing 'real' servers quite yet, and an actual server room was a year off.) My primary box took a LOT of filesystem damage, and it took me ages to fix it. So I commented in a slashdot thread that ext2 was very fragile, and that it was one of Linux's real weak points.
You just wouldn't believe the crap I got. Slashdot doesn't seem to archive that far back, so I can't give you links, but _most_ of the replies I got blamed me for being stupid. I "should have used a UPS"... ok, I could grant that, but remember we were a shoestring outfit, and we didn't need those on Windows servers. A couple people went off on me for, get this, not knowing how to use a disk editor to find my secondary superblocks and repair with those. I kid you not. Linux was perfect, and ANYTHING that went wrong was obviously the user's fault... to the point that I should know how to manually repair my filesystem. Instead of admitting that the filesystem should survive a power failure, it was my fault for breaking it.
Several years later, after Reiserfs and ext3 came out, we had a similar conversation, also here on Slashdot. Suddenly everyone is all about how great the journaling filesystems are, and how bad ext2 sucks. It was probably even some of the same people, but the original conversation had already been lost, so I couldn't prove it.
People just will NOT criticize software they're emotionally involved with. It's the most ridiculous thing I've seen... these theoretically intelligent, rational software designers that become absolutely insane when you suggest their software is imperfect. Blame the user! "You're just too stupid to use our software. Go away."
Fortunately, there's enough people in the Linux community now that the lunatic fringe doesn't dominate quite like it did, but these people are still out there.
It was ridiculous then, and it's just as ridiculous now. It doesn't happen as much, but it still sucks.
This whole argument is stupid. People do flame each other, it's just a fact. We could just as well sit around and wring our hands that the Internet would be more popular if the "online community" would just be more friendly and all the pedophiles and spammers would mend their ways. It's true, but it's also a rather pointless discussion.
I've never understood the attraction of IRC. I understand it even less when seeking technical help.
Not only are you relying on the chance that someone who knows the answer is on the channel at the same time as you, but you're also implictly demanding "I want an answer now!" which is not going to go over well.
I hear many more stories about rude behavior on IRC than other forums; it seems that maybe IRC attracts younger, ruder, and less experienced people.
I think forums like mailing lists, websites, even USENET, would be much more appropriate. You get a wider exposure for your question, and those who see it have more time to respond.
So why do people seek help from IRC? I'd like to know.
Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
You cannot wash away blood with blood
Not for Exim.
/usr/share/doc/mailman which is sufficient to get an install running. If for whatever reason this one has been skipped the same blurb is available in the Mailman FAQ.
It is a posterchild for how software (free or commercial) MUST be developed. A spec is written first and the software is written to comply to it. The spec doubles up as documentation and is available online with a reasonable glossary and index.
As far as mailman on Debian is concerned a person who has RTFM-ed should have encountered the cut-n-paste example in the
If you google for "Exim Mailman" you will hit it nearly immediately.
Baker's Law: Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it
http://www.sigsegv.cx/
The barrier to entry that I found most annoying was learning the terminology. When you know the only answer you're going to get is "RTFM" and all you really want is to know what manual to read.
For example, say I want to learn how to do something using the command line. Googling a phrase that describes what I want to do rarely yields optimal results. Since I don't know what the command is, I can't type "man thing I want to do".
If you know a good solution to this problem (like a book that is worth reading/purchasing), or a really good site, etc then I don't care if you tell me to RTFM, as long as you tell me where to get it. The same goes for learning new languages, even though I find that getting that documentation is a lot easier.
Am I open minded towards open source, or closed minded towards closed source?
Touche!
I completely agree with you. That is why I always laugh really hard when open source advocates say that using this kind of software will yield "free support" (in the form of forums) and online documentation. For some (a very small fraction) of projects it may be true but not for a lot of (and not only small, just look at the KDEVELOP documentation, with hunderds of sections without content).
And if you go to the "free support" you will only get RTFMs or "try playing with X and Y values".
Ubuntu is an African word meaning 'I can't configure Debian'
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
Before asking a technical question by e-mail, or in a newsgroup, or on a website chat board, do the following:
1. Try to find an answer by searching the Web.
2. Try to find an answer by reading the manual.
3. Try to find an answer by reading a FAQ.
4. Try to find an answer by inspection or experimentation.
5. Try to find an answer by asking a skilled friend.
6. If you're a programmer, try to find an answer by reading the source code.
I might be marked down because of this.
But what I see day to day in the IRC, very few new people do these very simple things.
This is why we go off on them, they dont even try to find the answer on there own.
So why do people seek help from IRC? I'd like to know.
You said it best yourself: "I want an answer now!" - I think it really boils down to exactly that.
Sorry, wrong. Not paying for support may justify the silence, as no one may know the answer to his issue. However it does NOT justify the original answer by any stretch of imagination.
The silence in response to the "I read it but didn't understand it" post underscores the fact that the original responder DIDN'T HAVE ANY CLUE AND SHOULD HAVE KEPT THEIR MOUTH SHUT.
I fail to see how anyone can think "you're not paying me, so I can be an asshole" is a valid train of thought.
Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
The attitude is prevalent, and ignores completely the service aspect of providing a positive customer experience. You might have the greatest product in the world, but if nobody can install it or configure it, then it's really quite worthless. Sure, the "target audience" can figure it out, but all to often the target audience is just the myopic developer, and everybody else who is exactly like him/her. Oddly enough, this planet has a great many inhabitants who might gain benefit from the great software product, if only the creator bothered to consider even passable service to go along with it.
I'll blatantly link to my own comment thread from another story just a couple days ago, which is exactly on this same topic. There I was flamed for suggesting that having good service is just as important as having a good product, and that there is a large range between the "I'll do anything if you pay me" attitude and the "if you don't like it my way get lost" attitude.
By the way, I highly doubt it is only the Linux/FOSS community, but it does seem disproportionate; if nothing else, given that it's a smaller community, finding the odd non-snob is somewhat more difficult.
Au contraire, there is a barrier and it has to do with laptop support. More and more people are using laptops as their primary machine as in your case and linux support for laptops is lacking at best. In my case, I tried installing a couple of distros on my HP laptop nc8230- Ubuntu 5.10, debian 3. Most peripherals were either detected correctly or drivers installed without too much trouble. The video driver had to be downloaded from ATI and took hours of trial and error to get working although never at the native resolution. I noticed that the laptop was getting hotter and hotter and eventually found that the fans were not coming on appropriately despite the processor COOKING ITSELF TO DEATH. Well fortunately, not quite to death. Googling revealed that this is a known problem and there are no work arounds. ACPI support in linux is truly lacking. It seems like dynamic processesor speed control is also acheived with an patch to the kernel. I dual boot linux on a desktop but that episode scared me a bit about trying linux on my laptop again until I know that those serious deficiencies have been corrected. With Windows XP, I use notebook hardware control to undervolt my processor and reboot once every couple of weeks and am quite happy with it. Before anyone responds with a link to http://www.linux-laptop.net/ didn't work. If your particular laptop is fully supported, fine. But in my case, the problems are either acknowledged problems or not addressed. Don't say that people should find out about linux compatibility prior to purchase because first of all, my company decided on the model and very few people make purchases that way.
As far as mailman on Debian is concerned a person who has RTFM-ed should have encountered the cut-n-paste example in the /usr/share/doc/mailman which is sufficient to get an install running. If for whatever reason this one has been skipped the same blurb is available in the Mailman FAQ.
And how much effort would it have taken to have courteously replied with that exact piece of information instead of a snub?
The gift of death metal does not smile on the good looking.
I do not recall myself replying with that though for many years now (I do not hang out on IRC though).
In fact I do not recall myself with a RTFM reply which does not point to a specific FM for many years now (7+ at least).
It is not snobbish and snubbish to tell someone to RTFM. It is snobbish and snubbish to tell someone to RTFM without telling where to RTFM.
Baker's Law: Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it
http://www.sigsegv.cx/
I've not personally tried Debian, but, I have heard the community there isn't exactly 'newbie friendly'.
I've tried RH back in the day, and Slackware was my first Linux try, back in the early 90's. I've found so far, the most friendly to newbs distro, is probably Gentoo. The forums are a great place to look for info, and also easy to get even easy questions answered. The community seems pretty tolerant of questions that 'have been asked before'.
I've never had much a problem finding help with any distro I've tried in the past tho...but, then again, I learned early on, to start a USENET post with something like "OK, I've tried, this, this, this and this...and am still stuck, does anyone have any links or suggestions?" Just to show that I've tried on my own and am now stuck. That usually got a good response. I also used to be more active in USENET groups....if people see you posting to help others, they'd more likely be willing to help you.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
Moderators, do your job properly. Parent is hardly a troll, just because one of the repliers disagrees with parent doesn't mean you should mod it way down. Sort it out.
Back in the days, when linux was young and new (read: 92ish), you couldn't even RTFM. There was no FM. We waded through source (and thiiiiis high was the snow. And we had to go uphill. BOTH WAYS. Without shoes!).
Linux was a system for people With The Clue (tm). Without, you were doomed. You had to know more about TCP/IP than that it isn't the Chinese Secret Service to get it working. We turned bitter and jaded, but at the same time, we became really good at what we're doing. We were happy in our little world, flying up on cloud number 9 and look down at the barbarians and illiterates using Windows, who have no clue and get heart attacks when an illegal instruction is encountered and they wonder if the special forces are gonna break down their door for doing something illegal.
Of course, with Windows we could have done the same. In less time. Well, not really, but it was mostly dick waving and about feeling better. Hey, we have The Clue! You, little peon, cannot even THINK about running Linux.
Now, Linux has matured. It grew. vi isn't anymore THE editor. No, neither is emacs, you misguided emacs followers! It's some notepad-ish thingamajig that runs on X. Imagine! Needing X! What decent program dares to refuse running on shell?
Along comes newbie bob. He's seen Linux, he thinks it doesn't look that bad and he decides to give it a shot. A barbarian invading our sacred halls. And he is asking those questions. You know, THOSE. THOSE questions that you've heard a million times before. Those questions that you simply know he will find if he only typed something cryptic (but completely logical for you) into google. Fu.., are you too stupid to google?
Nope. He just doesn't even know what to look for. And, worse, he can't "read" the answer.
The problem lies on both sides of the trench. The old masters and gurus get tired, being asked the same questions over and over, from people who don't even bother looking stuff up and if, don't understand and want EVERYTHING right NOW and WITHOUT wasting a moment to learn. Of course, if you happen to be someone who wants to learn and are unlucky enough to ask the very same question, you will be lumped into the same pot and get a "RTFM, moron".
On the other side are the clueless people who just heard that Linux is Oh So Cool, that you can do "stuff" you can't do with Windows, and who want to do it too. Unfortunately, they're looking for the fast pass. No learning, no understanding, I want a button to click! And the number will rise with the advent of DRM and the promise that Linux might cure this disease.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
But first do some research...learn the basics...there's only about a million books on the subject and reams of good, free info online to educate yourself.
Test out a distro or three on an older system you don't mind making mistakes on, then, after you gain a certain level of knowledge and experience, you can ask more intelligent questions of the community. But of course, you're going to run into the occasional idiot, so matter what the point of interest is. Linux doesn't own the market on arrogance and rudeness, unfortunately, that attitude pervades a lot of computer culture in general, since some very skilled and knowledgable computer geeks have no other life and it's the only authority they have and they weld it ruthlessly sometimes. Pity these folks...it's easy to be rude while you're hiding behind a keyboard in your Mom's basement.
Others on the list agreeing with the posting. This is a problem I have heard over and over and over again from people who tried Linux, but when they went to their local LUG they were told to RTFM and to google it before asking questions (oh...and mention that you are trying to find the answer in Google usually fends off another flame from someone.
I sat nex to a woman on the plane the other day who had tried to get Linux running (she was successful in getting it installed but she wanted to get Apache up and running (I know...a simple task) and get a streaming media server going for her music and movies. After much grief from the LUG she said "Screw Linux" and bought W2K3 Standard server, two clicks of a mouse later she has a streaming media server.
I switched from Linux to Mac at home because, well, Mac just works...and it works well. At my office I no longer use Linux...I use Windows XP because it is the corporate standard...and I don't have much of a choice. The funny thing is, we were on the verge of switching to a Linux desktop in myu department (development) but when the GIS desktop management people got hooked up with their local lugs and were greeted with the same love described by the article and by a few people here, they said "at least Microsft does't tell me to read the fine manual or talk down to me like I'm an idiot. I had my fair share of run-ins with the snobs referred to here, and to be sure, MANY that I know are not snobs and in fact are more than willing to help because they want others to learn and see the value in Linux.
Frankly, I'm over the Linux thing (but I can't change my login name to MacBoyDave). I've been a Linux guy since 1997 and since I boought my first Mac, I've bought two more. I still use Firefox and Thunderbird, To be sure though, I'll never recommend Linux as a desktop to anyone again. I said it at a LUG meeting (and was told to leave) and I'll say it again (and earn the troll mod, I'm sure)...Linux people are their own worst enemy.
I'm not a troll, but I play one on Slashdot.
You answered your own question. People hit up IRC for answers because:
Not all IRC channels are created equal, but many of them are full of people who are really just interested showing off how much they know by "helping" other people.
I think your average l33t kiddie's instinctual reaction to being asked a question to which he does not know the answer is to puff up and make himself appear bigger and more threatening. Admitting that they don't know the answer or aren't familiar with that kernel/server/programing language would be devastating for their fragile egos.
Oh, and to summarize the article: People on IRC/Forums, cloaked in the anonynmity the internet provides, were rude to other people. What's the big deal? I've found this same elitist "RTFM, n00b!" attitude on every forum or public IRC channel i've spent much time on, and that includes windows, mac, and linux specific support forums and community sites.
Just because someone hasn't gone out of their way to solve your problem for you doesn't make them an asshole.
No, but calling someone names or telling them to "you're not reading the docs" does. If you can't help, what gives you the right to berate, belittle and bitch? How about just NOT POSTING A REPLY?
The concept is a twist on "If you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all." In the context of support -- paid or free -- if you can't help, then don't post. For the record, saying "RTFM" isn't helping.
The guy already has his answer on what he can do next from his own question, he can identify which bits of the documentation he doesn't understand, research the area on Google and experiment until he does understand it, yes that is probably going to take a while but why should anyone expect other people to give up their time for your problem if you aren't willing to give up your own time for the problem ?
Right, now considering he does this, unless he pops back into said forum and answers his own question -- not gonna happen -- his information isn't documented anywhere. Thus, Google doesn't see it and can't be seen by doing online research. Sort of a Catch 22. The only things that are going to turn up in the research are the "RTFM" answers. Lots of help there.
If someone actually gives a HELPFUL answer it helps not just the person asking the question, but anyone who takes the time to research it themselves.
I've lost count of the number of useless "RTFM" and "did you Google on that" answers I've bumped into when researching an issue myself. One of the reasons that it takes so much effort to track something down by "researching" it yourself is wading thru all the self-righteous BS answers before finding the useful bit.
Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
UNIX was in a way a revolt against the snobbery of the mainframe culture. UNIX was named in contrast with MULTICS -- MULTICS was this massive time-sharing mainframe OS coming out of MIT which was supposed to have all kinds of whizbang security and protection features. UNIX was to be the single-user (at least initially) "personal" counterpart to the time-sharing Borg hive of MULTICS. UNIX ran on a PDP 11 minicomputer while MULTICS required a ponderous Burroughs mainframe.
The MS-DOS PC along with the Windows follow-on was a revolt against UNIX. UNIX had become the OS of choice for VAXen and had become the ossified mainframe OS of its day against which the PC was the revolt.
I don't think you will have people who are complete noobs having any issues with a *nix -- people are perfectly happy with OS-X. The people you will have trouble with are the people who cut their teeth on DOS and later Windows, who have memories of what they went through in the VAX days, and any hint of inadvertent condensension from Linux gurus is enough to give them flashbacks of their old tormenters.
There's another possibile explantion one should mention:
I think the computer corallary to rule that "once you save someone's life they become your responsibility" is: "once you help someone with a computer-related problem, you become their IS guy". Perhaps this is what some of the gruffer responses are trying to prevent. Not that they couldn't be socially inept or smug on top of that.
I'm not endorsing this behavior, just mentioning it . . .
I am not a crackpot.
Remember the old axiom "there are no stupid questions." A t-shirt I once saw added a disclaimer to this: "but there sure are a lot of inquisitive idiots". Both comments have elements of truth. Remember that most computer users don't know a CPU from a GUI and when you tell them to RTFM they glaze over and dream of a BLT on rye. Lesson number 1 is talk to newbies in newbie terms. We all hope that newbies will take time to learn the linux lexicon, but we have to keep in mind that most non-geeks only look for support when things go wrong. Even the geeks among us don't take the time to learn the technical terms for everything we come across. (Otherwise we'd all know how MDRTB differs from MRSA and how neither requires an EEG to assign an ICD9 code.)
So, using language that newbies understand ("monitor?, you mean the lizard?") let's try to answer their questions directly. Sure, mention ways for them to search for solutions to their own problems, but directly answer the question as well. Does it really take more effort to type "127.0.0.1 is the number your computer uses to talk to itself" as opposed to "google TCP/IP and RTFM, hope that helps"? People tend to be more receptive to learning once they have fixed the broken thingamajig. If we find ourselves getting frustrated with the newbies, what makes "RTFM n00b, or SFTU" a better response than "you're asking the same question, please see above" or, better yet, not answering at all!? We are under no obligation to answer any question, so if we CHOOSE to answer, let's try to be a little more civil - else leave the "assistance" to somebody else. For those of you who will insist on protesting that they're annoying you on your #noobhelp irc channel: either place the offender on ignore without answering (leave the question to someone else), or, preferably, go to a different channel to discuss the history of Plan9 and how it's so much cooler than BeOS.
Let's sum up today's lesson: 1) Newbies ask questions. 2) Newbies have never heard of man pages and don't know what /etc, /var/log, or man pages are. 3) Newbies know that their doohickey is broken and want it fixed. 4) Linux user /= geek. 5) If you can't contribute (civilly) directly to the noob's problem, STFU. They'll find google on their own if you don't say a word. 6) ANSWER THE QUESTION. If you feel you're being repetetive, post a FAQ on your home page and link to that. 7) If you went on the defensive after reading the article, then you qualify as a linux snob. Leave the "teaching" to those of us who said "oh no! people are being scared off!" and ran to the keyboard to type a calm and helpful response.
He who would be a man, must be a nonconformist. -- Emerson
Seriously. Apple and yes even Microsoft (don't laugh!) has had lots of success in listening to non-technical users and trying to meet there needs. Both companies get users in front of software, ask them to use it, ask them questions, and learn from them. Now, they all fall short (it's hard to meet everybody's demands), but they know that the simplest questions can lead to great insights and opportunities.
If a user can't figure out how to do something, that is a problem to be dealt with. The reason that MS is overhauling Office 2007 so radically is based on user feedback and studies. Granted, it may not work, but if it does, it will keep Office on top of the heap (and may lead to some interesting ideas in other applications). When a user has a hard time doing something, it is a chance to make something better, more effective, and maybe, just maybe, to learn something new.
The problem is that too many open source projects seem to exist to reinforce one's view on what software should be and must be. So, negative feedback is just reinforcement that the developers "really get it", and that these "newbies" don't. After all, why bother making software anybody can use? If the cool people are using it, and want to join the club, what else do you want? How better to prove you are smarter, better, more of a hacker, whatever than to make people jump through hoops to provide they have what it takes.
I think OS projects have done a good job in attracting coders and developers, but sometimes, it takes more than that to make a successful piece of software, and too many projects suffer from a myopic mindset of what makes a piece of software work or not.
Finally, I think too many people have a overdeveloped sense of superiority from the mere fact that they use an a particular OS, browser, tool, etc. Sure, it's understandable, but meanwhile, there are tons of people that just want to do something at work or at home, and could care less if the software is open source or not, because it doesn't add any value for them. And until this mindset is address, the RTFM responses will continue.
I feel that I must make a comment on this story because is is so true. The reality of the Linux-snob mentality is far beyond what this story notes. Linux users are so into trashing MS for its arrogance, but their own arrogance is equivalent. Corporate arrogance or personal arrogance is still arrogance. It is childish, obvious, and sickening. I'm glad that a Slashdot editor had the balls to post the story.
"If you want to improve, be content to be thought foolish and stupid." - Epictetus
Seen it. Had it said to me. I'm a 8+ year linux/unix user/admin but I must confess my m@d $k11lz with routing (think ospf and bgp) arent quite at the "routing god" level yet. Last year routing for my /28 got busted. One of the other admins (who knew more about routing) busted it. When I tried, and failed, to correct the problem I asked him for help. He said, and I quote; "Its a problem with ospf .. I'll leave this one as an exercise for the reader." .... after about six hours (im serious) of reading low-level crap at his advice which turned out to have nothing to do with routing, I finally found the problem and corrected it. He had made a typo.
The whole time, the "RTFM" guy was in the same room trying not to laugh.
Many of these people (admittedly, myself included) sometimes dont have the social sense NOT to tell people to RTFM right to thier face.... even fellow *nix users.
"Which means not automatically giving the command line answer to obvious newbies when a perfectly good GUI tool solution exists for their disto."
I have heard this argument before (and even used it when I was very new to Linux) however there are often many reasons to *not* use the GUI tool. First of all, if you are on the Apache mailing list asking about config info for httpd, how can you possibly expect the person *helping you* to be familiar with the distro you use and what GUI tools are available for that distro? And even if they *are* familiar with it, how do you know they even use the Desktop? None of the servers I administer even have X on them. Does that make me less qualified to help you? I think not. Secondly, I have seen many times where the GUI tool made such a mess out of the config files (and borked the entire part of the system you are trying to get running) that the *only* way to fix them was on the command line. Now while I agree with what you are saying in some respect, I dont think it is as cut-n-dry as you make it out to be. I do remember thanking a higher power for KPPP when I had to set up dial-up as a complete newb (circa 1998 or so). Often times just because there is a GUI tool for the job that doesn't make it the *right* tool for the job. That being said, a quick explanation of the command line you are asking someone to run is not asking for too much either.
LINUX HARDWARE FAQ
Q. Does (new piece of hardware) work with Linux?
A. No. Go write some drivers.
MAC HARDWARE FAQ
Q. Does (new piece of hardware) work with Mac OS X?
A. No, but Mac OS X is kind of like UNIX, so go download the Linux drivers and get them to work.
For more information, click here.
It didn't used to be this way. Back when I was the proverbial linux noob, I could count on Linux IRC channels and internet forums to basically be the most helpful places around. Yes, I had to RTFM before I could expect to get any help, but people were also pretty cognizant of when TFM was FU (useless), or when my question clearly went beyond what TFM covered. Compared to my experiences in just about any other venue -- in particular my ill-conceived ventures into gaming forums -- it was pleasant, helpful, and generally convinced me that Linux had some of the best tech support anywhere, for free.
I think a lot of the attitude of the users came from the fact that Linux was hard to use and get running, and nobody got it running without a bit of a struggle on their own part and were thus sympathetic to others. Like you say, we were all newbs once. This is why I'm sympathetic myself to claims of people getting snubbed by Linux forum goers.
Yet I'll admit that I'm also naturally sceptical, call it snobish if you will, just because it seems that half the time the person who is saying they're not getting the help they need is getting the help they need and only some of the responses are "RTFM idiot", or the person doesn't have and doesn't want to get necessary information and refuses to meet anyone halfway. A recent and extreme example was some guy who posted here crying about how he was treated on the Ubuntu forums. Now Ubuntu apparently borked his boot loader, which I have the deepest sympathies for. Yet after browsing the thread he posted to, I found out he was being a dick from the word go. He responded to every offer for help (usually requiring some action on his part, this not being a problem that just fixes itself) with sarcasm and "Why should I be expected to do/know that? Just fix my problem! 'Linux for humans' my ass!" and eventually people tired of this and he got told off, and these posts became his selected samples of why Linux users suck.
Now, for the rest of the people who sincerely wanted help but got the finger instead, I don't know what to say. It didn't used to be that way. Personally I think it's a result of Linux's growing popularity. The user population has grown, so that a previously select population now obeys more general rules of humanity, i.e. most people are cockmongers -- see the afforementioned gaming forums for an example. Linux has gotten much easier to install and use, so some people have no problems at all, and some of these people are cockmongers, and thus they think anyone who did have a problem must be an idiot. Basically, because they never really had to fight their way out of newbie status, they don't have the perspective previous users did, and thus have disdain for any newbie who can't blindly stumble their way through.
Or maybe it's the other way around. The users who used to be helpful, now being innundated with requests for help from the much larger linux community, some of the usual decent kind but of course a good number coming from cockmongers, they've become bitter, jaded, and yes snobish. That'd be a shame. Free software and Linux specifically are scaling wonderfully as a system and development model. Yet it is quite probable that the previously wonderful free support is not scaleable, and the failure mode is apparent snobbery.
The enemies of Democracy are
I agree wholeheartedly with you. I've had my share of "gorilla gurus" who are not above intellectual bullying when someone asks a question.
I am reminded of the attitudes displayed in Ray Bradbury's story "The Other Foot," in which (for those who may not recall) a town full of black people who emigrated to Mars en masse shortly before World War III find out that they will be receiving white refugees. Their immediate impulse is to start putting "Blacks Only" signs on restaurants and hotels, thus re-creating the situation that they had fled years before, only with themselves at the top.
Many of these "gorilla gurus" have most likely been on the receiving end of derision and scorn for not working with Windows, and have also either been given the same treatment when they started learning about Linux. It becomes like the geek version of the stereotypical fraternity, where these people associate poor manners with the rights of the "initiated," and now that they find themselves in a position of relative power are prepared to make those under them pay and pay and pay.
So much for a possible cause. A solution? Perhaps reminding these people that the same attitudes pervaded the Commodore 64 user groups... and where are they now?
Strike while the irony is hot! -- The Freethinker
Oh yeah, this is going to get people running to Linux and Firefox--don't use our software unless you know how to code. This wasn't a simple "change the max version" issue. It was something in the code.
Entering the Linux world reminded me very much of my experience in the Marine Corps.
You're introduced with verbal abuse and treated like a complete sub-human moron. Then, you gradually get promoted and you pass on the tradition of bashing newbies.
As with any "geeky" culture, the Linux crowd has a tendency to attract people with some issues:
-socially challenged individuals ignorant or apathetic toward others
-marginalized zealots of a "cult" technology (misunderstood or cast aside by the dominant paradigm)
-insecure, passive-aggressive people with a chip on their shoulder
Not all Linux-heads are like this, but like religious fanatics, it only takes one or two loudmouths to misrepresent the whole movement to newcomers or outsiders.
Now, if you want to reply with a flame or you feel a little defensive about what I've typed here, you might want to evaluate the motives behind your emotional response. I'm not talking about everyone in the linux community, I'm just making an observation about the types of people I've worked with in IT and the linux community over the last 15 years and these are some tendencies of my own as well as those around me. Some, if not most, are helpful and encouraging.
If you're one of those jerks (I've seen alot of them here on Slashdot), get help. Learn to be patient. Don't continue the chain of abuse, grasshopper.
I might know what I'm talkin' about, but then again, this is Slashdot...
So you have hearby volunteerd to sit in an irc channel and answer any and all questions.
oh wait, you can't be arsed? Figures.
We need to be able to include everyone in this community.
Why?
Just that. Why?
As for noob. It is more then being a newbie. Everyone is new to something at least once. There is nothing wrong with that. There is something wrong with expecting others to do your learning for you.
You claim "we" (does that include you) do not entire news users very well. Mmm, odd. You were new once. So was I. So were millions of others. How can that be?
When I was still new to unix (yes I am old) I received plenty of help as well when I later switched to linux. I never been told to RTFM.
Either I was lucky, or polite enough or I showed that I had spent time trying to figure it out on my own before resorting to pestering someone else with it.
I always approach asking for help like asking for directions. I am male. Death first! Well urban male, so being lost for half an hour in freezing weather is about my limit but the idea is, only ask for help as a last resort.
But hey, if your willing to jump in and start asking all the lazy questions I am sure there is a project waiting for your help. Welcome to unpaid tech support hell.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
[Devotees] just will NOT criticize [anything] they're emotionally involved with. It's the most ridiculous thing I've seen... these theoretically intelligent, rational [people] that become absolutely insane when you suggest [the object of their affection] is imperfect.
This more generalized statement applies not just to software, but to politics, religion, sports teams, brands of cars, etc., etc. Nationalists, religious zealots, OS zealots, hardcore fans, etc. are all the same kind of person -- someone who cannot handle objectivel criticism of something they love because they think that criticism and disdain are equal. They have a "mommy is never wrong" kind of love instead of a "my kid's not perfect, but I'm still proud of him" attitude.
These people drive me insane in every arena of life that I encounter them in.
If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
In a way, I think the very acronym, RTFM, is snobbish but that's just from a person who was deeply involved in the OS Wars in the mid to late 90's.
When people who are new to a discussion group or IRC channel ask a simple (to the experienced) question and receive a RTFM response, they can be quite offended by the apparent harsh reaction. They see Read The F'ing Manual and think, "How rude! What a bunch of snobs" and don't ask again or they become defensive and respond in kind.
Whether experienced people know that RTFM is a casual response or not is irrelavant. The new guy doesn't know that will more than likely be offended. That, IMO, is a barrier to people migrating to Linux (or any other OS for that matter).
It is not snobbish and snubbish to tell someone to RTFM. It is snobbish and snubbish to tell someone to RTFM without telling where to RTFM.
"RTFM" is still a response which turns off users and sends them back to Windows. I'm very much a Linux newbie myself, but when someone asks a simple question that I can answer and know where to find it in the documentation, I give them both.
Someone asks how to get a directory listing in the command line. You could:
a) tell them to RTFM
b) copy and paste the entire FM so they don't have to do any work
c) Tell them that the command is "ls", and then tell them where to look for more information on switches and such.
Option A shrinks the Linux user base. Option B does not encourage the poster to learn how to find answers for themselves. Option C gives them a quick answer to their question and tells them where to find more information.
120 characters for a sig? That's bloody useless.
They're not willing to spend 30+ hours to try and get their "free" software to work, and then get told they're a loser asshole when they ask for help. People are more than willing to buy support; they just expect tangible and easy-to-initiate products with that support.
I think with the interesting people, their lives can't possibly be wrapped up into a nice little package.
I had a similar experience, except I don't use IRC chat very often so I don't know the 'invisible rules.' I was trying to get help setting up the IVTV drivers for my Hauppauge card to run MythTV on my computer. The Ubuntu chat room (that the support link goes to) told me to ask in the MythTV chat room. So I did.
First I got yelled at for asking the same question twice in 10 minutes, because it was unanswered. Despite there being something like 250 people listed in the room, NOBODY was chatting whatsoever-- and they yelled at me for asking the same question twice in ten minutes!
Then I got yelled at because this was "the wrong room" to ask questions about setting up hardware. I asked what the right chat room was, and the answer was basically, "I don't know, but not here." Gee, that's helpful... the Ubuntu forums (that the Support menu links to!) told me to come here, and you tell me to go away.
Then I was yelled at because someone in the IRC channel who was trying to help me (which I do appreciate) asked me to paste in the error log. So I did, and I got yelled at by someone else for "spamming" the channel with 8 lines of text. (To remind you, this is a channel with NO conversations going on except mine.) God forbid I paste in 8 lines of text and spam the 248 people sitting in the room and not even talking at all.
I've had equally bad experiences with mailing lists. Look, if I want to answer a specific question, I don't want to have to go through the effort of signing up for the mailing list, whitelisting it in my email client, "confirming" that I actually signed up for the mailing list, posting my question, then waiting for an answer that may or may not come.
Please, PLEASE, use web forums for support. They are far, far superior. They are searchable, they are linkable, they aren't full of 248 people doing absolutely NOTHING except complaining when other people are being helpful.
And whoever runs the IVTV project: What is the point of creating drivers that are so difficult to install that no mortal could possibly do it? What's the point? Why not spend your time counting cracks in the sidewalk, it seems like that would be equally productive.
After my experience with IVTV drivers, including having two different Linux gurus walking me through the process over email, just makes me come to the conclusion that open source has nothing to do with producing usable software, but is instead just a huge circle-jerk for techies so they can pretend they're better than you. Out of the hundreds of people exposed to this problem, only two were actually helpful, and even with the help of those two I never got working IVTV drivers installed.
(And for the record, the Hauppauge card was recommended to me by a MythTV forum, so it's not like I bought some weird-ass hardware from Mars.)
Now I'm a lot more selective:
1) I won't use an open source product unless it's at least version 1.0. All those sub-1.0 projects are the ones that are impossible to install, use, get documentation for, or get help for, and I'm sick of it-- screw it.
2) I won't even bother trying to get support unless there's a support forum. If I have to sign up for a mailing list, I'll just delete it and use something else. If I have to go into a IRC chat room, same.
3) I won't even bother trying to use the product unless the website is actually slightly useful. Firefox, for instance, has a very usable and useful website (until you go to report a bug, but that's another topic), where IVTV has a Wiki with perhaps a total of 500 words worth of documentation.
(FYI, if your Wiki tutorial sucks, nobody's going to come down from heaven and fix it for you for the simple reason that the people confused by the tutorial *don't know* what the correct process is-- if they did, they wouldn't need the Wiki in the first place. It's more efficient for the developer, who knows the process by heart, to spend 10 minutes fixing the Wiki than random Joe on the internet spending 10 days researching how to install the software and fixing it when he's done only to be told by the developer that he did it all wrong. Wikis are as bad as mailing lists and IRC chat rooms.)
Comment of the year
I completely agree. Anyone with enough experience with computers knows that if you give people that are relatively new to them whether it be windows or linux, a complete hand holding . They will take advantage of you even for the smallest of things, things that you have explained 2-3 times already. I'm a patient person, and early on was taken advantage of alot like this. Now, my rule is the first time you ask me something, I'll explain it step by step or sit down with them and show them how to do it, and give URL's or notes or something to help that person out. Second time the same question is asked, I'll try to explain it a different way, use different analogies etc. If they ask me a third time, I'm like "WTF I've told you twice, why didn't you take notes? I gave you links, documents etc to help you out.", and I'll explain it again. Fourth time: RTFM
Now I may be a little "more" patient than some. When I started out with linux, I pretty much always would google, browse list archives, etc. BEFORE I would post my question, and when I did eventually post my question, I would include steps of what I have done already, the lists I have browsed, and the parts of the docs that I didn't really understand.
This technique has, 99.9% of the time, let to helpful answers, and not just responses like RTFM.
Questions from people where it is blatantly obvious they have done none of the aforementioned steps piss people off. My favorite questions to ignore are the ones where it is obvious that they haven't read the docs, and want step by step hand holding, as if it is their right as a newbie to not have to research anything, they typically go something like this: "I want to setup my webserver, I'm a newbie and just want step by step instructions, I don't have time to RTFM, or search google. I have posted this question before and all I got was RTFM, or no response. I need it done now for my job, it's an emergency! What is up with all these rude people out in linux land?"
This happened to me. I was interested in hacking my TiVo (standalone 540-series) which is pretty much unhackable without a PROM modification. But I had managed to look through some of the files that I'd copied off the TiVo hard drive and I had some questions about one of the file formats. I looked through the SeriesII forum as well as a lot of searching and didn't find the answers to my questions, so I posted. Big mistake. :(
Please understand, I'm not new to Linux. I've been teaching a Linux Internals course for a few years now, as well as device driver development, kernel debugging, and so forth. I know a little bit about the Linux kernel. What I didn't know was the boot process used on the TiVo. I was slammed by the forum moderator ("RTFM in the Newbies section"). I thought I had done that, after already spending hours+hours of searching and reading posts that were too old to apply to my unit.
Until... I went back to the newbie forum and read every one of the sticky articles and I found 80% of the information I was looking for (sigh). Part of the problem was that the newbie forum has about 15 sticky articles, some of them with 40 pages of posts in a single thread. Experience had taught me that most of those are too old to apply to my unit, so I would open the thread and jump to the last page, working backwards through the thread, to see if I could find something relevant. Well, the information was actually in the first few posts -- the community had been editing that post and updating it as time went by.
My point to all this is that newbies often post in an area that is for developers; they should start with places like linuxquestions.org or other generic Q&A sites, then progress from there. The people that frequent those sites want to help others, not write code. They're the newbie's best chance of having their questions answered.
This avoids giving the impression that Linux is technologically retarded (which it clearly is not), whilst avoiding the insinuation that the responder is an "apologist".
(1.21 gigawatts) / (88 miles per hour) = 30 757 874 newtons
I've not personally tried Debian, but, I have heard the community there isn't exactly 'newbie friendly'.
The debian community is very friendly, for certain values of friendly. The old saw "give a man a fish, feed him for a day; teach a man to fish, feed him for a lifetime" applies here. I would consider teaching people to be self sufficiant to be the friendliest option, and I try to do so. But many people just want their fish now and refuse to be taught. They then criticize the linux community as being unhelpful when we won't hand over the fish. Is this fair?
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
This attitude is exactly what people are talking about.
When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.
A good example to bad IRC channels is the Wikipedia one. The servers had a major outage today, and the error message said: Visit the IRC channel for more info. So in I go.
It's people basically discussing their sexlives, and the treatment of women in Islam, and if you ask a single question about the foundation servers, you get kicked. Which seems pretty bad to me.
I can understand in non-"official" IRC support channels, but when it's listed officially by the site/distro/software website, it should maintain a friendly, semi-professional image. As it's the first place people trying out Linux or new software might experience. Of course, #n00bsWTF on irc.l33thax0rs.nu can do what the hell they like.
I remember my first days with Linux. I tried man, and I couldn't work out how to quit it, so I Ctrl Z'd it each time. Upon logout, I got the warning about stopped jobs. Little things like that are confusing. vi is confusing. (vim less so). You can scroll up in less, but not in more. Simple things for us are ultra confusing to people that don't know Linux. Think back to the days when you knew nothing about Linux/Unix, and remember them when helping out people in the same boat.
Get your own free personal location tracker
There are many like this, no doubt. But a lot of it depends on the size of the project and the types of users who typically use it.
In general, mail servers mailing list are the most abrasive group of asswipes I have ever experienced. Cyrus-imap is occupied by a bunch of personalities that are just begging to be blown up. I've never see a better example of your comment to WTFM and then RTFM and meanwhile STFU. It was simply because of the utter lack of support that I bailed on the project entirely. I think it sucks.
Meanwhile Postfix is slightly better. Whiney posts about "Stupid postfix doesn't work, this thing sucks." will only result in snubs. But you have to learn how to make posts to mailing lists. Once you do it correctly then you will receive (typically) lots of good answers to the questions.
Perl, Ruby, PostgreSQL, Debian-users have all been very useful lists for me. I have never been snubbed even with the most retarded questions out there. They are new, they are modest, and they are all trying together to make it a better place to be.
Now for the important piece.
How to write an email to a mailing list without sounding like a fucktard.
Clearly and succinctly state your objectives you wish to accomplish, "I'm trying to set up a relay mail server in my DMZ to forward delivered email to my LAN." Don't start with "I wanna set up a mail server." There's a lot of ways to do it and if you go with the default setting you'll have "a mail server." But probably not what you wanted. Show that you have applied some thought to your objectives.
Specifically identify what section of the configuration or manual you are having trouble with and if possible, identify what you tried to to, why, and what didn't work the way you wanted it to. But you have to prove that you RTFM while sober and with some actual config attempts with trials and results. RTFM on the bus doesn't count.
Post your configuration where you can.
Post your logs where you can. Be succinct.
Google it. Often times you will find the same problem somewhere else. If your's is close but still problemmatic, then identify the diffs to help identify the problems.
You have to make sure that you are able to present a context that makes sense. To simply state, "my address_verify_default_transport doesn't work." won't get you much traction. Why doesn't it work, what are you hoping to do, what have you tried? What were the results.
Most of the time that I do this, I end up finding the damn problem myself and don't need to post anything.
Never expect someone to just hand you a solution to your problem. This isn't the world of Microsoft where you just reboot, patch, reboot, pray. This is the real world where you can set up real stuff and fix real problems. Not much voodoo here.
Many of the posts that I see get snubbed are posts that are presented by people who either take the attitude that it's your fault their computer doesn't work, or that they are expecting you to hand them the solution to an extremely complex problem. Setting up multiple domains on a mail server with deliniations between local delivery, local relays, remote relays, SMTP_AUTH, and virtual domain rewrites isn't going to be accomplished in an hour. By the way, the first post, where it's the mailing lists fault will usually get a response of violent bile spewing bugged eyed flames.
In short, don't be arrogant. Present your case with evidence that you really tried. And you will be surprised the results. But not always... Even this kind of an approach with Cyrus-imap brought reproach from the residents of the mailing list. But I've had great success with the others.
Oh yeah. One other really important thing. And this is HUGE. If you can answer the guys who are behind you on the curve then those ahead of you will often times recognize that you are not just a leach but contributing. That will get you a lot of karma points in getting more polite results. I try spend an hour answering someones questions on at least a mailing list.
Exactly! The fact you have to actually type stuff to install something puts alot of people off Linux. Yes installing from source using the command line can make sure it does it exactly how you want it to be done, but for "95% of the time" (quoting from an installation guide) the same 4 commands will work. I'm a linux newbie for the most part and maybe someone can answer for me, but if it's true that most software will install with the untar, configure, make and make install commands, then why at the very least is there not a batch file or the linux equivilent that you can doubleclick will do the install? I have asked linux enthusiasts this plenty of times and I always get answers about control over source and even more often I get "Why do you want to turn Linux into Windows?!", so there is a lot of snobbery over this issue. I'm not suggesting that the command line should have no part on the install of software, I'm suggesting that it shouldn't be the primary method of doing something so basic.
Fortunatly there is progress with the .rpm and .deb installers, as well as .package files. The way I see it is linux arrogance and snobbery is holding Linux back and stopping it from getting a decent foothold on the desktop market.
Go home and shave your giant head of smell with your bad self
If the support forum for a particular piece of free software is not helpful, why pay support money to others for that particular piece of software? Why wouldn't you spend money, even if it's more, for a product that you know you can get supported?
"It's too bad stupidity isn't painful." - A. S. LaVey
This is all because the FM's are written by the snobs who dont want to tell you what to do in the first place. I have poured over a lot of documentation for how-to-do's in linux, and barely any of them were any help at all. When you ask for help in the community, they bite your head off for being such a newb. Honestly, I think the linux community is worse than a bunch of 15 yr olds playing counterstrike.
If Microsoft users could easily locate the correct conference room on the Microsoft campus and walk into a meeting and ask questions, I'm sure they would be yelled at plenty and told to get out the meetings and rtfm. It would actually be worse if often enough somebody at the meeting, instead of yelling, would say "oh yea I know what that is, you do this and this to fix it" and thus answered the question 100 times faster than any other method, thus encouraging the user to face the abuse because the odds are that the results will be better.
Microsoft does not have this problem because you need to get past security to get into the conference room. Linux can't implement this because people will just say they are getting *more* snobbish.
But there is a more important problem. In Linux it literally is 1000 or more times easier to find and walk into that conference room than to find the documentation or call the support line. Real, usable documentation has got to be easily locatable, just by knowing the name of the program you are trying to use. Unfortunatley "man" pages are still the best, if "man xyz" does not say "no documentation available" it will actually produce the information I need. I have yet to see this with any html system or google where you can spend hours searching (ie a clear "you will not find what you are looking for" would help).
Also the command line needs some work. It is not unfriendly because it is not a GUI, but because it is lacking some stuff that too many programmers think is "gui stuff". A previous poster complained about the difficulty in telling somebody how to read a README, getting them stuck in less or vi. But the "noobie" apparently was able to locate the README file easily using the command line. They knew it was there, but not how to read it. They were told "try vim or cat or less", but that is just stupid. Why doesn't the command line let you type the name of the damn file (ie type "README") and it then acts exactly like those GUIs and open the file in the GUI text editor. Too many idiots think that somehow this function is impossible unless there is a mouse and you push the button twice. Get with it.,
I remember back in the day (circa 1998), I used to ask noob questions and get flamed all the time. I swore to never be one of those people, but I do live by the saying "Give a man a fish, and feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, and feed him for a lifetime".
I always instruct noobs to stop phrasing their questions as, "Somebody tell me how to do this", and start phrasing them as, "I've tried this, this and this, but still can't figure it out. Can someone tell me where I could the information on how to do this? I'm new, and if needed, can post additional information if needed. Thanks in advance!". I found out quickly that people came out of the woodwork with helpful ideas, suggestions, and links to information that very nearly always solved my issue.
I also tell them that they are now responsible with sharing that information back to the community to help out others. You don't need to be a programmer to give back to the OSS community. Sharing your knowledge and experiences is every bit as valuable.
Because teenage pranks are fun when you're about to die!
As I move from newbie to barely productive to competent I try to turn right around and participate in a forum that matches my previous skill level. I find that very often there are other people struggling with the same thing I just painstakingly figured out.
I think if more support fourms were somehow structured into levels and more people would participate at the level of expertise they possess it would help. It is frustrating to deal with the same first-time user questions over and over again, but a structured forum that includes a level for extreme beginners not only gives the beginners a place to feel safe to ask stupid questions, it gives those slightly more knowledgeable a place to feel like a useful part of the community support process.
"do you know how to do what XXXYY does in perl in php?"
"Not, RTFM"
That is not rude, it simply means, no I do not know how, but should be in the manual.
It's all in the wording. In these days of instant communication we tend to abbreviate too much and many times we are mistakenly taken as rude or impolite or a snob.
Among your friends, it might not be a problem, but to a complete stranger and "noob" it gives the impression that you are an arrogant prick than can't be bothered.
Compare to this:
Noob: "do you know how to do what XXXYY does in perl in php?"
You: "I dunno. Sorry. Perhaps you can find more info in the manual."
And if you are feeling generous enough, throw in a link to TFM.
Part of the blame lies in the acronym itself. When somebody looks up what RTFM means, their belief that they are simply being snubbed is reinforced.
Kinda the same situation.
That said, people should stop being so thin skinned whenever posting in a public forum. It's nothing personal, we don't really hate you. We don't even know you.
No sig
Don't feel bad. That's not the actual problem. The problem is trying to treat a forum like a book. It isn't one, and it never will be.
In particular forums are collections of flat databases. We invented hierarchical databases (like just about every filesystem we use today) for a reason - some information simply does not organize well in a flat format.
The web is designed to be a hierarchical database with links that jump from one tree to another, or simply one branch to another. This is a quite logical way to look at information.
When I have two competing software packages, and one has real documentation, and the other just has fora, I pick the one with docs even if they're incomplete, and usually even if the forum-supported software has more features. In my opinion, the documentation should be started before any code (beyond proof of concept) has even been written.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Gentoo is a distro where there are always dozens of people willing to help you. However the reason for that is that Gentoo generally requires a good deal of computer knowledge, common sense, persistence and tenacity to make it do anything. The people who can use gentoo are the users that people are willing to answer questions from. Gentoo users like a challenge and like to figure out things themselves, thus if they ask a question, chances are that it isn't solvable through a quick google and actually needs to be answered. That is the reason why I have never seen someone told to RTFM on the Gentoo site. However I imagine that would change if they were repeatedly asked questions that have answers that can be found on the web.
When Argumentum ad Hominem falls short, try Argumentum ad Matrem
There might be a bunch of reasons for this, none of which you might find persuasive---but at least I hope you find them to be kinder responses:
1. People writing software may really not be concerned with ``ease of new user use." Some people are concerned with such things, others aren't; after all, that's the difference in philosophy between vi and GUI-based, WIMP text editors. This is also why some distros try very hard to provide integrated tools that allow new users to install stuff without having to use the CLI---to allow people who otherwise do not have the skills to track down dependencies and the like install with a simple point-n-click interface.
2. This might indicate that there's an organizational or philosophical difference between (some) people who write software (individual programs) and those who put together distributions. As long as there is a division of labor, a software developer might be inclined to say ``well, if you want something easier, tell your distro to include it in their repostitories." If Free Software is about scratching the itch of the programmer, it seems that individual projects will focus more on getting the coding done with a 95% install solution rather than spend time getting that 5% solved (or for that matter scratching the itches of others, which, if the simile holds, are less pressing than one's own itch after all).
3. Nothing makes you more 1337 than watching the configure & compiling messages scroll across your screen---sure, you don't know what they mean, but your friends using windows are just lamers compared to uber-1337 watching compiling. (I keed, I keed)
"Every decent man is ashamed of the government he lives under." - H.L. Mencken
You know, that's why most corporations that vend technical products have a support staff that's completely separate from their development staff. Developers and newbies rarely mix. The difference w/ open source projects is that you often don't have that middle support layer to cushion things.
I personally consider myself to be part of the rare breed that can do both. I worked on the "computer hotline" when I was in college, and later had a mixed role as both a UNIX admin and customer support staff at a small ISP, so I've already had a trial by fire. The computer hotline gig was in the age when dmail and vi ruled the college email scene, rather than, say, Outlook Web Access. I think if I can explain vi to someone who has never really used computers, and not make them feel bad, I think I can claim patience with newbies. :-) (Or patiently explain to the umpteenth Mac customer that the cable that came with their Global Village modem isn't suitable for PPP because it lacks hardware flow control support, while keeping them from blowing up. *shudder*)
If someone does ask me a question, I'll take the time to patiently answer it. If the answer's fairly involved, I might explain the initial portion of it, and point to further references. (Thank the heavens for "vitutor.") Another skill that people should try to cultivate is "anticipating the next question." If you can do that, not only can you preemptively filter subsequent questions, but it also makes you a better documentation writer.
In my experience with other technical people, these skills are rare. I've met and worked with some very bright technical people that confuse their inability to explain something to another person with that person's ability to understand it. I've also met people that snap after getting the same question for the eleventy-billionth time. These people need layers of filters around them.
I kinda look at this in terms of the old "Give a man a fish"/"Teach a man to fish" saying. What we have here is a third action: "Laugh at him because he can't fish, and tell him to go back to McDonalds." Not really acceptable, is that?
--JoeProgram Intellivision!
The I-HATE-LINUX-ZEALOTS things is valid, but not when it blinds you to the fucking glaringly obvious, or when you twist it to support a statement that lots of troll and flamebait mods might mean that he's not a troll.
If you don't mind me asking, where did you go for support? It sounds to me like you went to /. Well, /. is NOT a support site, it's a tech blog. A tech blog full of people who like to troll and flame people. They're not here to help you, they're here to read tech articles and ridicule other users. Yes, some of us will help you if we can, but most /. users. . . probably not. I'd say coming here for support is almost asking to be ridiculed.
You should go to a Linux help site if you want help with Linux. If you want (good, helpful, useful) Linux support you should go to http://www.linuxquestions.org/. That's where I've been going all these years.
www.linuxpenguin.net
The source is free, its a gift. If you want to leave strictly because you're being a pain in the ass, then thats fine. They have posted what works for them for anybody to use. What is being described is somethink akin to checking a book out from the library, and then calling the author up and demanding he explain his reasoning behind certain parts. They already gave you the code, if you really don't like it then don't use it. But don't for a moment assume you are owed the privilege of support from them. There is a pretty universal equallizer in this universe called "money". If you don't have the knowledge or resources to do something then "money" can get you there. This applies universally among free and non-free software.
Occam's razor is the blind faith in the natural selection of least resistance and in universal oversimplification. -- EF
Some may call that snobbery. I didn't really see it that way. To become a guru able to answer forum requests requires a level of experience that SHOULDN'T be dismissed. I abhor stupid questions and try to avoid asking them at all costs. If that means reading for two days then so be it. Every Newb to Linux should be told in no uncertain terms the "Support rules".
FIRST. Read the Fscking Manual
SECOND. RE-READ The Docs.
THIRD. Google your problem.
FOURTH. Scan the Forums for your problem and then Ask Informed Questions that demonstrate the above.
FIFTH. Share your knowledge when you find THE answer, Everywhere you asked the question.
The biggest problem for the "Guru" is a bunch of already addressed issues clouding up a very active community. After the fourth time you answer the same question that is posted as a sticky in the forum you start to get annoyed. True, we shouldn't take it out on new users, but people are people.
I discovered these rules on my own. I challenge myself with every broken dist-upgrade or NVIDIA Upgrade for what seems like forever and I rarely have to ask for help. I don't want to ask. That's the point, I should be able to fix it myself. If I wanted Support I would have bought my DISTRO and Support Package. (or OSX or WIN) I actually feel kind of defeated if I get to step/Rule 4. Uh, Oh this one's new to the scene, may take a few days.
My experience is there are assholes everywhere. FOSS is no different, but sometimes, the asshole is right and the answer IS in the F'n Manual.
Currently at home, I am working through a Kanotix/Debian Sid Xorg7 dist-upgrade Snafu that happened last night.
Thank GNU for elinks.
OSGGFG - Open Source Gamers Guide to Free Games
About a year and a half ago I was using GAIM and ran into a glitch. I checked there site and a new version had come out. I upgraded to the new version on my Win98 system. Yeah I know but, the accounting package our company had didn't work right on anything else at the time.
The new version crashed upon startup. The website hadn't had anything posted about upgrade problems. So I went to the IRC channel for GAIM and asked them if there was an issue. The channel had the usual 'Welcome to GAIM' text. Two developers were in the channel at the time.
One developer told me to read the site about and check that channel. Again, neither had been updated. The second developers called me an idiot, and said I should know more about GTK. The GAIM project has just updated to GTK 2.6 from 2.4; 2.6 is not Win98 compatible.
So I asked if there was work around. The next 20 minutes the second developer berated me for asking such stupid questions with the first developer 'Amen-ing' everything he said.
Finally a third developer who came into the channel and flipped out at the immature attitude of the first two. #3 told me the whole story about the new version and GTK. The third developer changed the title on the channel and left to put a note on GAIM.
While that person was away I asked if they have been a lot of problems with GTK for while. I was then told that they were thinking about dropping development on Windows because to many Windows people were using GAIM, and not enough Linux people.
After all that I left the channel, changed my name, and came back to see what was going on. Two more people came in with same basic questions on GAIM and GTK. I was able to divert the wrath of the cruel developers and actually give the people some help.
So there's my horror story with OSS and OSS tech support. I still use GAIM on occasion, but I and most of my friends are moving over to Google Talk
You say things that offend me and I can deal with it. Can you?
This isn't really anything to do with Linux. It's "Computer Geek Syndrome," plain and simple -- the feeling of superiority a nerdy, introverted person gets when he realizes he understands something better than someone else does. Some people who only ever use Windows have this same anti-n00b attitude. The only difference is that they don't scare anybody away from using Windows, because all the computers come with Windows installed. Thus, you either put up with that obnoxious nerd when you have computer problems, or you go looking for nicer, knowledgable friends.
Breakfast served all day!
I generally agree with you, but in this case they were in a support channel. If somebody sets up a support channel, it's reasonable to expect to get support there. At the very least, you deserve not to get berated.
Software companies, like most other companies, have more than just an engineering department. There is HR, PR, and of course support. Because the goal of companies is to make profits, the purchasers of their products are usually their top priority. This usually means support for their products. We all know that this support is not always the greatest, but it is not often that I have had a tech support rep attempt to berate me over the phone, in fact they would never even direct me to RTFM even in its most polite form.
If the Linux community wishes to see its market share grow appreciably its members need to start thinking of the whole open source experience. In effect everyone involved in the community needs to see themselves as ambassadors for the whole community. Sure maybe 90% of the Linux community spends their working day in IT or writing code, but when it comes to acting as a community member you need to fill all those (positive) parts of the corporate model that are missing in the open source one.
I'm sure there are some who would prefer to keep Linux for themselves and people like themselves and if that's what they want they can continue to act like those described in the article. However for the rest of us the issue goes beyond basic decency in support forums, the Linux community needs to start providing more than just a product as-is but a whole experience and it needs to be much more positive and inviting one than it is now.
Part of the problem is that "RTFM-ing" is becoming more and more intractable. There is way too much bad information out there on the web. If you want to find out how to do something, you google it and come up with 90% bullshit, then much of the remaining stuff that looks promising is incomplete, or assumes some unstated context.
Man pages don't help either. In much the same way that you can't learn a language by reading a dictionary, you can't always learn how to do something in linux by reading the man pages for the involved commands-- especially if you might not even know which commands apply.
In many cases, it makes sense to ask on a newsgroup/forum. In fact, I think the really good distros got that way because they have active and friendly forums where people can ask questions-- yes, even questions that have been already asked.
The problem is, that they DON'T think about whom they're dealing with. "Linux snobs" (only a subset of the set of "Linux users" I should add) are typical of the type of person who is well-informed and even highly-developed in their understanding of only a narrow range of things, and hopelessly inept outside that range.
This is not unusual in human beings generally. For instance, there are brilliant physicians who have the bedside manner of a fruit-bat--they just don't interact well at all with the people that they ostensibly are there to help. It is in everyone's best interest if they improve, but they'll never be naturally gregarious.
So it is with a lot of "computer geek" types of which the "Linux snob" is comprised. They aren't too comfortable with interpersonal relationships to begin with, and many of them are positive social misfits. Their natural response to having to deal with someone "inferior" is to be, well, a "snob."
FWIW, there was a time in the early days of "microcomputers" when nearly everyone was a hobbyist and an elitist snob. Somehow, the community overcame that, and computers moved into the mainstream, so that even the "un-nerdiest" among us are well acquainted with their use.
Therefore, I disagree with the premise of the Article: I think that technical streamlining is the key to wider acceptance. The snobs can be overcome now as they were before.
Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
Analogies don't equal equalities, they are merely somewhat analogous.
> Most people want everything handed to them
No - most people just don't care about computers all that much.
Do you expect people to tinker with their cars?
Do you expect people to tinker with their television's wiring?
Do you expect people to tinker with their plumbing?
Then why would you expect people to tinker with their computers? For most people, a computer is an appliance, and deserving of no more tinkering than a tv. You can whine about people being "not ready" for computers all you want, but that won't change the basic fact that mature technologies don't need to be babied to function properly.
It isn't people that aren't ready; it's computers.
I, among many others, used to be a regular on Yahoo's programming chat rooms. Here's a pretty typical exchange (abbreviated), and the observed aftermath:
Newbie: Somebody tell me what I'm doing wrong.
Us: Post the smallest snippet of code that exhibits the problem, or be more specific in your question.
Newbie: Why the fuck can't you pricks just tell me what I'm doing wrong.
Us: We can't tell you what you're doing wrong unless you give us more information.
Newbie: You guys are elitist assholes. I'm reporting you to Yahoo! [Newbie leaves the chat room]
By chance, I happened into a different room that the newbie had run off to.
Newbie (to the room): Those programming guys are assholes. All I did was politely ask for help with a simple problem, and I got nothing but flames and attitude.
Here's another common scenerio:
Us: (answering the same question for the 10th time in a hour, and one of us adding the question to a FAQ maintained by one fo the regulars).
Newbie: (asking the same question).
Us: Go to [our web site]. We've answered the question at length too many times to want to type it all in again.
Newbie: Fine, be an asshole. Why can't you just answer it here??! You guys are such pricks.
Whenever I read a story about someone claiming that he was maligned by people in a chat room, I take it with a huge chunk of skepticism. I don't doubt that he was eventually bashed. I doubt that the bashing materialized out of nothing, and for something as simple as asking a question. That isn't to say that it never happens this way, but I have never in my 11 years using Linux seen it happen as described by the supposed victim.
I feel the same way about the Gentoo forums. I got back into Linux because of them. I had been away for many year cause I didn't want to deal with the snobs while troubleshooting. I didn't have to wade through an endless stream of people asking the same question, only to get the same response: "google it, god fucking damnit already". If I had a dime for every google hit that told me to google it, I'd own google lickity split.
Just today I was on #fedora on irc.freenode.net to get assistance / make sure I was doing things "the right way" to install Java support in RedHat Fedora Core 5. Mind you, Fedora Core is for "developers" or those who want more cutting edge and don't want to pay for RH Enterprise Linux, so it is going to have a bit of a learning curve which you always have to keep up with as things change.
I'd already done some homework in researching at a popular Fedora FAQ website. However, as with many things with Linux, things were out of date, or talking about the wrong version (in this case, that FAQ is still for Fedora Core 4, not FC5).
I checked in at #fedora and asked, "Is the method to install Java at http://www.fedorafaq.org/#java still the best way?" A few folks said yes, another guy (ignacio, who is the classic example of a linux snob with a, "Live free or die" attitude) said, "Not best, use gij" to which someone else fought the battle for me and asked, "Is there plugin support with gij?" and ignacio had to reply, "No." Well, pointless, as the only reason I need Java is for plugin support with my online bank.
So, what I did wrong was that I should have know to ask, "Is this the best way to install Sun's Java?" You already have to almost know the answer to ask the question with some folks. While I can understand trying to do a bit of research and be prepared, it's not that simple. Googling sometimes gives you the answers, but again, there is always that out of date / old version problem that gets in the way. You could spend hours following the "old" method with old versions that don't apply and won't work anymore.
Anyway, I ended up just taking the original FC4 Java install notes and modifying them and put them on my own site for others to hopefully find via my webpage when searching for Fedora Core 5 and Sun's Java: http://jason.roysdon.net/?p=819
I take exception to this.
d =203714 ID 653979
The manuals in general are poorly organised and extremely verbose. There seems to be no good way for them to be updated. The man pages are notorious for not having good examples.
I consider myself to be somewhat of an expert because people actually pay me big bux to do things. It is extremely frustrating sometimes to get good information.
As an example - I posted a more or less correct road map on how to get sound working in a debian machine. Other than the fact that this is obsure - the woody configuration was borken. That was about 4 years ago as I recall.
The procedure is posted in sourceforge under GRIP support and people can find it here: http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=3714&ati
While the post is not perfect - it is a start and it at least tells people what they should look for.
Over the last 4 years in the IRC linux help groups I have on several occations encountered people running into the same issues as I ran into in 2002. The manuals have NOT been updated. I have seen on a number of occasions A*holes telling people to RTFM. Like *WHAT* manual am I suppose to read? Why can't the software check for this? Why can't it put out a reasonable error message?
The situation is really bad in the Unix world and while it has gotten better over the years - there is a serious rift between what we need and what we have.
I have experiance on more than 13 operating sytems. Unix is the best by far. However the manuals are close to the worst with only the IBM mainframe manuals claiming the prize. Those are truely horrible - mostly because they are so thick that a person would have to spend a month to read even one of them.
Surely we can clean this mess up. A way to start is to open up the temple and let people actually correct and improve the manuals using a wiki style documentation system. I do know there are efforts in this area. The thing is these efforts need to be welded into the distros people commonly use.
People can disagree with me of course - but the flavour of the posts on this thread clearly indicate we have a major problem.
To me it seems like any question you ask, you get a snappy response or someone trying to make you look like a fool. As a person who's been using computers in some capacity for over 15 years, it's quite irritating to my senses. To linux snobs, it doesn't matter how much you know if you are just beginning in linux, because you are a linux n00b that's worthless and should "go back to windows." Another thing I really hate is the insistance that Windows is the wrong application in every place. I was having a candid discussion about how I was reinstalling windows on my laptop because I couldn't get the resolution to go past 800x600 in linux and I didn't feel like farting around with it anymore. I got berated by people telling me how awful it was to do this, no suggestions otherwise of how to fix my particular problem besides general FAQs which I had already gone through and saw fail, and looked at as a hater of OSS. Well, I run linux on my second computer, and I would love to transition my main computer to linux but the support just really isn't there and I don't get a great deal of pleasure farting around with my computer when I can just use the free windows I have installed and get some real use out of it. To Linux nazis like the ones I encountered tho, there is no in between. If you are running windows on anything you are an ignoramous who knows nothing about computers... If you want people to use things, this is hardly the way to go about it.
Judges and senates have been bought for gold; Esteem and love were never to be sold.
write an email to bill gates complaining that something in windows doesn't work...
The MAFIAA is a bunch of mindless jerks who will be the first up against the wall when the revolution comes
Conversely, I found Gentoo to be the most informative of distros for learning Linux.
I do have a certain level of familiarity with computers, having been a developer on Windows for some years, as well as a hobbyist back as far as the Commodore PET.
Because installing Gentoo (especially from Stage 1) requires you to hit the command-line and tinker with things, it's a great way to learn Linux in general. After basing my MythTV box on Gentoo, I'd gone from a n00b to someone who "got" most of the underlying workings of the OS and had even contributed a small patch to the kernel.
Someone who has always impressed me as a class act is Wietse Venema. When someone on the Postfix mailing list asks a question that's already answered in the man pages, his response is polite and concise: "The answer to your question can be found in the (postconf|postfix|postsuper) man page". It's a response that is neither insulting nor dismissive, and it shows that Wietse thought about your question long enough to determine which man page has the answer, and maybe even asked himself if the explanation in the man page is sufficient.
Yes, my only tool is a hammer. And you're starting to look like a nail.
Developers aren't the problem. An OSS project has more than just developers, there are people who test for bugs etc. and there are people who document stuff. Yes, the time is donated, but here's a little secret; if you don't make it easy to use your product, people won't.
There are LOTS of non technical people. They will NEVER be technical people. They simply don't think in those terms. It doesn't mean they're stupid, but there are certain tech concepts that they just can't wrap their heads around, the same way I can't wrap my head around income taxes. And there's only about 100 times more non technical users than technical ones. The documentation, especially for free software, is often quite terse, and requires someone to fill in the gaps. Sometimes, it's too verbose, and you need someone to cut through to the meat. Either way, a person should ALWAYS be more helpful than a manual.
Now, the real problem, is in support forums. It's people who know how to use/configure the software who answer questions from those who don't. Everyone who just says "RTFM" is adding noise to the signal, and providing a bad experience to the user in question, who may at this point simply give up.
The opinion that "Linux snobs" usually have is "fine don't use it". The problem is that the response is almost always, "OK, fine.". This is why there aren't more Linux users on the desktop.
Oh, and yes TIVO WILL walk people through recording a show, just like T-Mobile will walk people through turning their phone on and off, etc. etc. Help desks "Help" no matter how stupid the question seems. They might be getting paid, but if free software wants to compete with pay software, it's got to compete with the pay support too.
--Not to be worried, Pitr fix.
I finally went back to Windows on all my machines. I was a member of a LUG for a while, and was utterly bashed on when I became one of the early adoptors of DVD on PCs. At the time, there was no DVD support for Linux. I played with some of the early projects and made one or two contributions to early CVS, but was attacked by fellow Linux users because I was quadruple booting Linux, 98, NT, and BeOS.
I tried going back to Linux about a year ago, and gave up. I was trying to install video drivers, and I asked a couple of people how to do that. I got a RTFM response, to which I responded, I did, and I still have issues.
There is a difference between the Mac and Linux communities I would like to point out. Both communities think they are better than Windows users, and will tend to rub it into Windows users faces. The difference is that Mac users will help each other, whereas the Linux community support is SO bad, that Microsoft started offering it with their new virutal machine software.
I am starting to find that more and more Linux software is being written by snobs too. I wish I could think of the software I was trying out, but the install directions stated simply "Install in the normal way". I spent a greater part of an hour trying to figure out that the normal way ment "make, make install, install" or however it is. Of course, then the program would not install because I did not have the proper libraries, and the website did not tell me where I could obtain these libraries. I hit up on a couple of other Linux newbies, because the Linux "pros" did not "have time to mess with miniscule issues like these". After two days of work and research, we never did get the program running. I booted back into Windows, found a similar program for Windows, installed and was up and running in two minutes.
My problem has seldom been with the Linux OS. The Linux OS is great, it is sturdy, and when properly configured, will run circles around Windows. My problem has ALWAYS been either the lack of information or the overload of information (try reading a man page sometime, the man page for tar alone hurts my head), horrible directions on how to install the program, missing libraries, inability to find Binaries (RPMs usually) for my particular distro (whether it be Fedora, Suse x64 or Mandrake), and almost nonexistant support from the community. Most of my friends and myself know that Linux is a better OS, but refuse to waste our time trying to get a stupid application to work, or a driver installed. I am triple booting on my machines now, but its no longer Windows, Linux, and BeOS, it is now XP Pro, XP x64, and XP Media Center. And that is the way it is going to stay until there is a dramatic change in the Linux community.
I'd have to say, when I was a complete n00b and decided to use linux for the first time, I played around with many distros and by far the best community suport came from the lycoris forum. I was not once flamed for a stupid question (and believe me, there were many) and my overall experience was nothing but a helpful one. To any new linux users out there, Lycoris does come highly reccomended simply for the high tolerance to "stupid" questions and quick responses with real answers on their official forum. On a side note, I still use windowze as I work for a publishing and graphic design company so adobe and quark are used and interoperability with those two (mainly on macs) in particular is paramount.
I remember the good ol days of hanging out on #linux help. People would join with needs like: how do I add another network card, how do I customize my installation, why can't I get X Windows running...
One sticks in my mind.
#n00b: rpm doesn't work
#sgt_scrub: which distro?
#n00b: i have redhat
#sgt_scrub: sounds like 4.1 some of the early install cd's had a broken rpm
#n00b: how do i fix?
#sgt_scrub: is this for fun or work?
#n00b: fun
#sgt_scrub: i suggest using a different distro for a while. try playing with mandrake. its a cool new distro.
#n00b: will this fix rpm?
#sgt_scrub: its a completely different distro.
#n00b: i would rather fix rpm
#sgt_scrub: its not easy. if your just playing around to learn...
#n00b: isn't there a way to fix it?
#sgt_scrub: download the rpm source and build it manually.
#n00b: how do i do that.
#sgt_scrub: go to redhat's site. its a lot of work and i won't talk you through it.
#n00b: bitch moan complain... ad nausium sgt_scrub is a prick....
I'm all for being helpful but we all have our limits. When you set them people are disappointed and suddenly your a prick.
Having to work for a living is the root of all evil.
One of the main differences between Debian and RedHat is the level of documentation. Debian is the second best documented Unix system after FreeBSD. RedHat does not even come close. Granted, it has gotten better with ES4/WS4 but it still has a long way to go.
Debian policy specifies that every executable, every config file has to have a man page. Even if the manpage says "look elsewhere" this is still better than the scarce and sporadic upstream manpages you get with RedHat. In addition to that 99%+ of packages that requires configuration by hand (like mailman) has some examples in the /usr/share/doc/package-name directory. Once again, RedHat is pretty scarce on this point.
You are correct that debian is "hard". It is. For people who do not want to read. If you do not mind reading it is a much better starting point for a newbee than RedHat. While I have not played with Ubuntu I suspect that it has inherited this from it.
As far as RTF* is concerned I think the major problem is the overall cultural difference. As noted in one of the old essays by Eric S. Raymond the Unix (and Linux) culture is the culture of verbal and written expression. It is not a good place for people who do not like reading (and writing for that matter). The Windows culture is a culture of visual expression. In order top perform an action it has to be visible. An object ot text must be selectible, its color has to visually change, etc for the action to commence.
As a result of these cultural differences, a person which is incapable of accepting a RTFM answer will not convert to Unix (at least long term). He/she does not fit the culture. Similarly, a person accustomed to verbal/written expression will never be at home with Windows once he/she has seen an alternative. In either case there is no point to try to force the issue.
I have hat to support both categories over the years and I have learned that forcing the issue never helps. Different people have different mindsets and forcing a person to adopt a way of working which contradicts their mindset is always a bad idea.
People complain that RTFM is a snobbish answer. Well, for that matter, "click with right button, select properties, select Advanced, change ..." seems even more snobbish for a person who is accustomed to a verbal expression. It is a matter of culture, get over it. People who cannot get over a polite RTFM (with a pointer where to start) do not belong in Unix land. People who cannot get over a 3-4 right button clicks sequence do not belong in Windows land.
It is time to burry the hatchet and not try to force either one of these castes to pray on the others altars. It does not work.
Baker's Law: Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it
http://www.sigsegv.cx/
When you don't even know how to edit a simple text file, because the one you've got installed in VIM, whose interface is nothing like anything you've encountered so far; when [insert some more examples of the most rudimentary tasks becoming colossal undertakings]...
There's a certain level of expertise you need to get to before you can start crawling on your own. Show me a manual and a distro you think any intelligent person could make do with, and I'll show you five(*) places he couldn't have worked around without either a human's help or prior knowledge, acquired from watching a human interacting with a computer.
That is not to say that none of my questions are plain dumb; don't go digging up logs.
(*) I'm not a busy man, but I do have _some_ things I need to do.
(**) Alright, alright - add "in a reasonable amount of time" to all of the points I made in this post.
News for merdes. Shit that matters.
Ask me about my sig.
I have never used linux, OR VMware. I am doing this to learn how linux works so when I build my next machine, I can dual boot it with Win2K, and turn my other box into a Raid.
:)
I am not what I would consider a n00b, but seriously, I am on my 3rd attempt at an install and I am still having problems. I google, I google some more, and then I end up with 4 windows open, with 5 or more tabs open in each one.
I picked this distro because my brother in law uses it, so I figured if I used the same, I could get help. Just watching him try to install VMware tools on an unsupported distro (Fedora Core 4), was helpfull.
I have read hundreds of threads on linuxquestions, I have a big ass book on redhat AND linux, and yet there are still times when I have no idea what the fuck I am supposed to be doing.
This promises to be fun.
Today's show is brought to you by the number 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0: 25
I've found this to be absolutely true. The *only* answer I received when I asked a question in 2003 was "RTFM", which is both rude and offensive. Well, sometimes the answers weren't in TFM and if the snob answering the question had RTFM himself he would have known that. Sometimes I had to hunt through 4 pages of results on google to find what I needed. There used to be a Linux newbies forum that was a recommended link at Distrowatch.com - they deleted posts with questions in them under the assumption that you hadn't searched And yet they advertised their site as the place to go to ask questions! I love my Linux but I don't like the Linux community much because of this attitude even now. When I get asked a question, I try to answer it if I know the answer, although I will add that you can find out more in the man pages if it sounds like the person hasn't read them.
Oh, and I've found that this works too.
I dream of a better world... one in which chickens can cross roads without their motives being questioned.
Was this Linux project person born with a defective gene or did his mother carefully raise him to be a foul-mouthed jerk? I am in the process of learning Linux, and, yes, I am reading the --- manual. Even with a manual there are still questions to be answered. This is why our educational system has teachers. Otherwise we would simply hand kids a stack of books in kindergarten and tell them not to bother us again. I'm sure Linux person had teachers who helped him learn (at least to read--I assume HE read the --- manual) and probably answered his questions. There are people in this world who are jerks and idiots. It is best to step over them (wouldn't want to get any on your shoes) and continue on your journey. I will continue to ask questions AND read the --- manual on my journey to learn Linux.
Personally, I think everyone should take the time & hard road to really understand computers the way you only can with an open source operating system. I mean, these machines are amazing, but it takes time to understand them & learn how to use them to their fullest. Heck, I figure I'll be doing that the rest of my life.
But, I recognize that I'm weird & that lots of other people--for some reason--don't really want to do that. To them I say, "Don't bother with Linux or FreeBSD." It's not that I don't think they're smart enough or good enough--I think they are. But they've told me they don't want to go down that path.
So, I heartily recommend they get a Mac.
(Unless they have a particular use for a computer that is particularly well suited to something else.)
Plus, the great thing about the modern Mac is its Unix underpinnings. While its user experience is great for my wife & my kids, it also will allow my kids to--should they want to--make meaningful explorations into the deeper realms on the same machine they use for everyday tasks. It's Terminal.app, ssh client, & X server will allow them full access to their account on the Linux boxen at the house, too.