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EOE Concerns w/ Electronic-only Job Application?
Khyber asks: "Jobs seem to be increasingly harder to find in the real world today, and even harder to obtain due to the increased proliferation of on-line-only or electronic-only job applications. I know this firsthand - as today I attempted to apply for a job at Kroger's, only to discover that I had to fill out one of these electronic applications in their 'Career Opportunities Kiosk.' The machine miserably failed to get past the second page of the multi-paged the application. I've asked the manager if there was a paper application to fill out (why do I need to know how to use a computer to stock shelves?) and he has told me that I -must- fill out the application on their broken and defunct Dell Genesis Terminal. Are there legal concerns that I should be looking at, here?"
"Kroger's claims to be an EOE employer, however I feel that I am being denied my equal opportunity to gain employment due to the failings of a broken piece of software and hardware, and the refusal by the manager to give me a paper application to fill out, as an alternative. Can this be considered discriminatory to those of a lower education level in their attempt to obtain a job, as well? Are there any laws on the books that give me the opportunity to fill out the application on paper as opposed to digitally?"
discriminatory to those of a lower education level in their attempt to obtain a job
Um . . . I wouldn't want to work for a company that didn't discriminate based on education level.
Let's see, you're asking for legal advice on Slashdot and the reason you need the advice is that you don't know how to use a computer? You're about 19 days too late.
Don't blame me; I'm never given mod points.
"Can this be considered discriminatory to those of a lower education level in their attempt to obtain a job, as well?"
"Equal opportunity employer" means they do not discriminate on the basis of legally protected traits (such as those protected by the Civil Rights Act of 1964 - race, color, religion, sex, or national origin). Education (or lack there) is *NOT* a protected characteristic. They are perfectly free to say that people who have below a certain level of education need not apply. (And the reverse is also true - I remember hearing about a police department in New Hamshipre that would not take applicants with above a 105 IQ, citing the high rate of burnout due to boredom)
To make laws that man cannot, and will not obey, serves to bring all law into contempt.
--E.C. Stanton
and he has told me that I -must- fill out the application on their broken and defunct Dell Genesis Terminal.
Maybe, just maybe they want to discourage you from applying. Maybe they don't like your face and tell you to use the broken machine, in the hope that you'll just give up, and they reserve hand-written applications forms for applicants that look more "kosher" than you to them.
I knew of an employer you used such tactics with applicants of black and arabic origins: he didn't want to be sued for racial discrimination, so he made sure non-white applicants had a really hard time applying.
"A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
stop being a whiney bitch. If their terminal sucked, so what? You obviously have internet access to be posting your story to slashdot, and every public library has internet access, so you and the general public can apply online at Kroger's website.
http://www.kroger.com/careers.htm
Does the name Pavlov ring a bell?
It's going to be hard to convince them you need any accomodations, when you're posting to Slashdot to ask for advice!
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
I used to *hate* filling out gobs of paper applications - they'd inevitably have something like
write your entire life history here -> [______]
Do not omit significant details.
in a little 1/2" square box.
try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
Everybody has an Equal Opportunity to operate this crappy machine. Honestly I have no idea what the hell you're going on about.
If the machine is broken, then the device is equally rejecting all applicants. On the other hand, if it doesn't work for visually impaired people then you may have a claim.
:-)
I'm not sure I understand your story: if the company's photocopier was broken and they couldn't give you a paper form, would you post to Slashdot about it being unequal? Or would you just wait until they fixed it? Did the manager refuse to fix the machine? Is the problem a broken machine or a bad design? If you are critiquing software, maybe a job at Krogers isn't for you. Alternatively, if you tried to be 31337 and broke the machine, then it is discriminating against hackers.
Why don't you call your local bar association and ask for a referral to an employement lawyer?
The bar association wouldn't give me a referral unless I filled out an electronic form specifying what kind of lawyer I wanted to talk to!
If the machine was broken, it was broken for everyone. Online applications is the norm at this point, and you'd have to have a really solid position to challenge the company in court. Maybe if you were blind and their online application was a non-standards compliant web page...
Even then, do you really want to work for a company that you had to sue to get a job? Do you think they really want you on staff if they are forced to hire you on due to a lawsuit?
And what the hell are you talking about it being hard to find a job? The nation wide unemployment rate is around 5%, there are a LOT of jobs out there. Likely even jobs that you are qualified for. But YOU have to find them.
-Rick
"Most people in the U.S. wouldn't know they live in a tyrannical state if it walked up and grabbed their junk." - MyFirs
the dreaded ID10T error [/obvious]
There is nothing inherently safe about liberty. That's why so many people died protecting it.
Do you really think the broken computer is giving someone else an unfair advantage?
It would seem that an online application would be preferable in terms of equal opportunity. The person reading the application wouldn't be able to easily determine your race from the electronic forms. And it could hide your name and other identifying information from the manager until he/she decided to interview you. I would also suspect that it would be easier to gather metrics using a digital medium, to ensure fairness.
To answer your question more directly, I don't think there's anything illegal or unethical about their system, unless they're using it as a filter to only allow "acceptable" people to apply. (Which may very well be the case.) But EOE disclaimers only list things like race, gender, ethnicity, age, sexual preference, and disability. I don't think we'd want them to go further into things such as intelligence, people skills, personal hygiene -- things that might actually effect performance and teamwork.
I also fail to understand why you'd ask for legal advice from a bunch of geeks. And why you read Slashdot, yet claim to be technically dis-inclined.
Software sucks. Open Source sucks less.
Adding basic mouse clicking and typing skills to the list seems pretty minor.
All the basic mouse clicking and typing skills in the world won't get you past "Connection timed out" or "The document contains no data" even after several reloads.
So their computer was broken. How is that different than you trying to apply, and finding out that "oh, the manager isn't here right now" or "gee, I can't find any blank applications" ? Companies do stupid things, they have bad processes, they run out of stuff.
Think of it this way, everyone who tried to apply that day was fucked, so there's no discrimination.
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
My guess is that the manager in question simply isn't very woried about hiring anybody right now. If he was working 60+ hours a week to cover for a short staff, you can bet he'd make sure your application was accepted electronically, on paper, or in just about any other form short of scratched onto the wall of a cave...
Of course, the obligatory disclaimer: IANAL, etc., so take it for what it's worth...
The universe is a figment of its own imagination.
Unless you believe you are being discriminated against based on some other factor, like the color of your skin or the fact that you have tatoos over 95% of your body or happen to weigh 400 pounds. In that case (well, in the first one at least) you may have a case. But then if that is indeed the problem you should have specified it to begin with instead of doing the "I'm being opressed because I have to use a mouse" routine.
In any event, believe it or not the effin' job market is pretty darn good right now, so if you have some sort of technical skills (and again, you identified the box as a "Genesis terminal" and seem to be posting to Slashdork so I assume that's the case) I'd suggest you look for something more along those lines.
Web2.0: I love when people Flickr my cuil and digg my boingboing until my google is reddit and I start to yahoo
I work for a company that does online and automated telephone hiring, so I have a small bit of experience in this area.
Hiring costs are a big deal, especially for large companies. A crapload of stuff can be automated. For example, if there's a minimum age requirement, the application software can automatically ignore all the 17 year olds who applied for a bartending job instead of having some HR person manually go through a stack of applications to sort out the idiots who applied even though they couldn't legally qualify. Trimming down the applicants to those who meet the minimum job requirements can save lots of time and money.
It's also easier to re-evaluate previous applicants when there are new job openings. Just because someone hired for one job doesn't mean you want to ignore them for future jobs. An automated system makes this possible. Paper applications are too much of a pain to review months later.
Data retention is another big deal. I know in California you are required to retain applications for one year (might be a Federal law, not sure). It's a damn sight easier to keep the data in electronic form rather instead of a big ass filing cabinet filled with thousands of applications you will never look at (nothing says you have to look at the applications, just retain them).
-- Will program for bandwidth
If I read his issue correctly it seems the problem wasn't he didn't know how to use the kiosk, the problem was the kiosk wasn't working ("machine miserably failed to get past the second page"), nor was the other one they pointed him to ("their broken and defunct Dell Genesis Terminal"). He also commented that the application process seemed to require computer use for a job that didn't require it, not that he didn't know how to use one.
So his problem is with a company not providing a means to apply for a job, which may be discriminatory if they don't provide a reasonable means to apply to the general public.
"Maybe if he figured out how to get the thing fixed (who to call, whatever), or fixed it himself". Stores LOVE it when people come in and start screwing around with their equipment. That would go over real well. Plus, if you know how to fix a piece of equipment you've never seen before on the spot then you probably don't need a job in retail.
It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
If the first page asked your race, and if you picked Black, Indian, or Chinese the next page gave an error, but if you picked Caucasian or Latino it worked fine.
Otherwise... it isn't discrimination, they just have a broken Kiosk.
This sig is the express property of someone.
I tell you what, I got my first job because of one simple thing. I stuck it out in lobby while he kept me sitting around for 45 minutes.
That was all he really wanted to know, did I want the job enough to jump some simple hoops? or was I a QUITTER?
Pretty much the interview was for show, I had the job barring being a total moron in the short interview.
You don't have a work history, neither did I at the time, so what do they judge you on?
They judge you how much do you want the job. When you have provable value and skills you can complain about how they jerked you around.
In the meantime, they saved themselves hiring a guy that gives up easy.
In other words, you have choosen poorly. Now learn from it.
Learning is not compulsory... niether is survival. -Deming
Never answer an anonymous letter. - Yogi Berra
I don't see any problems here. Your opportunity is as equal as the next guy who tries to use that broken down machine. Besides, I believe EOE is in regards to race, religion, sex, etc... How the perspective employer receives your application is up to them.
Okay, so there seem to be endless stories here on /. about people not being able to find employment, and bemoaning the fact that none of their (apparently super-qualified) friends can find jobs either.
Where are these people when we (in the business community) put up ads for employment?
Most of the business owners I know (yes, we all know one another...that's what those silly clubs like Kiwanis and Rotary is all about) can't seem to find an employee that's worth jack shit, when they can even find people at all.
Is there some cosmic disconnect? Nobody can find employees, and none of the unemployed can find jobs. I don't get it.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
It's called disparate impact. If the higher level of education is not required, that by itself is not the problem. The problem is if in the applicant pool, more of a certain protected class of people don't meet that level of education. In most cases, what happens is that the white applicants do, for example, have a high school diploma... while blacks and Hispanics are more likely not to.
However, it's progressively easier to claim that the education is required, as more and more jobs require employees to have literacy and problem-solving skills even at low levels.
Inventory control and RFID, to name a couple of reasons
Everyone I know who says that they can't find a job are doing the same thing: faxing or e-mailing a resume, possibly submitting something online, and then waiting. Let me tell you something as an employer, sending your resume in the mail doesn't tell me you want the job. Following up with phone calls, in-the-flesh visits, and thank-you notes after interviews will get my attention. If you're fishing for "just something" then you're not the type of employee I want to invest in.
I've read in many places that the nationwide unemployment rate issued by the US Bureau of Labor Statistics counts only people who are drawing unemployment insurance, which is not available to recent graduates and which expires after several months whether or not one's best job searching efforts result in a job offer.
This is not true.
In BLS definitions, people are considered employed if they did any work at all for pay or profit during the survey week. This includes not only regular full-time year-round employment but also all part-time and temporary work. Also, people with a regular job who did no work for exceptional reasons (vacation, paternity/maternity leave, illness, strike, etc) are considered employed.
People are considered unemployed if they do not have a job, have actively looked for work in the prior four weeks, and are currently available for work.
So the major problem is that people who are seeking full-time jobs but are working even a single hour a week are counted as employed. Less egregiously, if you stop looking for work--say you want a job, but spend months looking and finally get discouraged and stop job hunting for 4 weeks--you're not considered unemployed.
But if you're looking for work and do not have a job, you are counted as unemployed even if you're not drawing unemployment.
It also does not count situations of underemployment, such as an IT professional working at Kroger because local companies' IT departments are fully staffed.
And it probably shouldn't. You don't have a right to have a cushy job doing whatever your main interest is at a huge hourly wage.
I mean, if I'm working as an entry level programmer but would like to be a senior engineer, should I be considered unemployed? Or if I'm a senior engineer but want to be a non-tech manager? Or if I'm a manager but want to be a writer?
rage, rage against the dying of the light
This is the way we are headed. I flew out to another state to attend a job fair. Raytheon was there. I waited my 45 minutes in line with resume in hand and gave it to the HR manager standing there as I introduced myself. He handed it back to me, and proceeded to tell me how to use their broken website to search for jobs and to apply online. I FLEW OUT TO A JOB FAIR! I paid for the air travel, the hotel, and the rental car.. and they tell me to go back home and make their broken website work. WTF?! It's a job fair! So this is definitely going to be the frustrating norm.
The worst of it is.. you search their site and you get a bagillion job hits. You click on the link to read more details and it asks you a bunch of questions about why you think you're a good candidiate for the cryptic two word position title, and then send your resume. You never get a chance to actually read the job description on the Raytheon website. What gives? And this guy send me back home and he's at a job fair. What in the world do these lazy HR people expect?
Slashdot.. where people join together in deliberate ignorance.
Everone so far is missing the point - companies use computer applications BECAUSE of EEO.
If there is a person taking an application, that person can always be accused of bias. Theoretically, a machine doesn't CARE the race/gender/whatever of the applicant. It doesn't know what that info is, and if it does ask (for EEO reporting purposes)sure as shit the code has been audited/certified by the vendor supplying it.
Their machine was broken. Take it at face value. Believe it or not, you don't have a right to be given a job - only the right not to be denied a job based on certain characteristics. Being a litigious jerk is not one of them.
"As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
You didn't actually read the post you replied to, did you?
Si vis pacem, para bellum
The only thing more annoying than a Libertarian is an (un|mis)informed Libertarian
Well, actually the application *is* available to him. He obviously has access to a computer, as he was able to post his plight here on this forum. If he had two brain cells to rub together he would have went to kroger.com and found that the application is available on the magical Interweb thingy.
\/\/oobie
I'm willing to bet the "make them wait 45 minutes" test has no predictive value whatsoever.
Patrick Doyle
I mod down every jackass who puts his moderation policy in his sig. Oh, wait a sec....
have you ever filled out one of the online only applications before?
I've filled out 5 of them so far (and not one has even contacted me and two of the places have big ass "NOW HIRING!" signs right where you sign up and in front of the store) and in every instance they all had the same thing in common, they asked what race & gender I was.
Now the computer might not care what skin color or biological organs you are & might have but the machine doesn't determine if you get the job or not, a human being still makes that call (though I doubt they even look at them anymore) so if you mark that you are black or white or any other race & a man or woman it still comes into play, In fact your race comes BEFORE your qualifications on the rest of the application.
Now what makes that any different from brining in a piece of paper and the one doing the hiring decides "I ain't hiring this *Insert racial slur here*" or "I ain't hiring this *Insert man/woman here* and someone filling out an electronic form and seeing that they are a certain race or certain gender and saying the same thing?
so until these online applications get rid of "What race are you" fallowed quickly by "We are an equal opportunity employer!" the race/gender issue will always come into place
Then "many places" are printing incorrect information.
Unemployment numbers count people who are not employed and who are looking for work, regardless of whether they're receiving money from unemployment insurance. The rate does decline when people can't find work and give up looking, but it includes recent graduates who are looking for work.
More information than most people could even find interesting is available here.
Don't blame me; I'm never given mod points.
http://www.bls.gov/opub/hom/homch1_h.htm
any other questions?
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
The race and sex information is not used for the hiring process - it is used for statistical analysis later on (e.g. monitoring compliance with diversity requirements) and for reporting to the Department of Labor. HR and hiring managers don't even see it.
You are standing in an open server west of a blue house, with a boarded front door. There is an Exchange mailbox here.
Wait, is that the smell of Karma burning?
How are sites slashdotted when nobody reads TFAs?
Some of those *are* legal to ask. Birthdate? OK. Race? OK, but you don't have to answer (they collect this data to prove that they're not throwing away all black applications, for example). How you get to work? OK.