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The Challenges of A DVR Service
ChelleChelle writes "'The two burdens that are probably most annoying to the user are a complex and difficult control interface and lack of reliability.' So says TiVo cofounder Jim Burton as he describes the challenges of designing and delivering an easy-to-use yet highly effective and reliable DVR service. The article is quite broad in focus, providing information on the design aspects of TiVo (hardware, security, source code, etc) yet also taking into consideration the human element, with a large section devoted to service design principles. Overall, a good read for anyone interested in purpose-built systems." Update: 04/21 18:54 GMT by Z : Tim Burton no longer cofounding Tivo.
From the blurb: "So says TiVo cofounder Tim Burton" From the article: "by Jim Barton, TiVo". Jim Barton is not the director of Batman .
The biggest burdon we'll face with DVRs is DRM. Solve that problem and you have a seller.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Damn I didn't know Tim Burton was into this Tivo deal.
Jesus said to his disciples: "If you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one" - Luke 22:36
...smart fast-forward and rewind. Tivo and other DVRs know that my reflexes aren't perfect and jump back when I over shoot. My DirectTV DVR, not so much. As far as innovations, my network-enabled Tivo (that only played nice w/ Windows machines) wasn't enough out weight the 2-box set up and higher per-month cost.
You'll get my TiVo boxen when you pry them from my cold, dead hands. Just sayin'.
"Tell me doctor, with all of your defenses, are there any provisions for an attack by killer bees?"
I love my DVR... when it is working. I have learned the controls (they are byzantine) but I haven't learned on what days I need to sacrifice a chicken to avoid a crash. If it was a Windows Media Center, at least I would understand why it crashes so often, but it is silver box that sits there, pretending to record shows.
I am willing to work around its quirks because of all the upside (it doesn't crash *that* often), but I suspect a less geeky user would simply drop kick the thing out the door. Reliability needs to be the number one concern when creating a device that works in the background like DVRs do. It is very annoying to find the programs you thought you recorded missing because it locked up Wednesday night...
Automatically detecting when my cable company reassings the stations would be nice too.
Sig under construction since 1998.
First it was patents, and now articles...... Can't these guys nail anything down?
We have both tivos and a Comcast HD PVR (I believe made by Magnavox), and I can attest to the interface being the hardest thing to get right, but maybe the most important. And, by far Tivo has come closest to the transcendental interface over any competitors (I've also sampled the offering of some of the others).
Here are some of the "wows" about Tivo, many of which I'd discovered over time:
This barely covers the features, but Tivo has done an AMAZING job in ergonomics!
The Comcast box, on the other hand, is abysmal. It is almost unusable, but for now is the only available option to record HD shows. Here are a few of the annoyances:
Concerning subscriptions. To read the article, one would think that the only way you could ever purchase a Tivo would be with a recurring subscription fee. The reality is that *many* of us bought series one Tivo's with a lifetime fee. The lifetime fee was, by far, the best value for the consumer and is no longer offered.
"Eve of Destruction", it's not just for old hippies anymore...
...its hard to build an HDTV unit as well. Meanwhile, back in the rest of the world, us poor cable customers have to suffer with our crappy Scientific Atlanta and Motorola HDTV DVRs that have crappy interfaces, terrible support, and an even worse reliability record.
:-/
I had Tivo for 4 years and Tivo was relevant to me up to about 1 year ago. And, unfortunately for them and me, that window closed (because I upgraded to HDTV) and they just aren't anymore since I would have to "turn back time" to go back to them. The lack of HDTV support was, in simple terms, a deal-breaker.
Maybe that new Series3 will change things. When is it shipping again?
No, no. I think you misunderstood me. I didn't say "announce" or "pass tests". I said shipping.
...is that a DVR is a product, not a service. If TiVo could figure that out, they'd be a sucess.
The only advantage that Tivo had over a build it yourself system's is
You can get the Tivo hardware (when its on sale) for next to nothing.
But with the monthly channel guide fees, DRM and the lack of free remote management.
Is slowly driving this product down the tubes.
With there new fee's tivo's now cost $16.00 a month with a 2 years commitment.
If your new to pvr's I think MythTV is a better deal.
I watch downloads and dvd rips, a video server works better for me.
onnectivity is unreliable. We can't assume that we are able to connect to the service back-end at any given instant. Thus, the basic functionality of the DVR should work whether connected or not, transparently to the viewer. As a corollary, we could not build in a dependency on network bandwidth available to the DVR. All data transfer, including eventually video, would be handled through download.
Not true. More than once I've been up at 4 AM and noticed the Tivo had gone into record, reeling in a commercial hawking an upgraded Tivo box or someone else's product or service. Tivo regularly buys airtime early in the morning to broadcast and reel in their own program material.
"Eve of Destruction", it's not just for old hippies anymore...
I have a Cox DVR (made by Scientific Atlanta), and it works fabulously. I haven't had any of the problems you've encountered, and my wife and I have multiple programs always going. Highly recommended if you're in a Cox area.
Okay. Now there is a blurb from Z: "Tim Burton no longer cofounding Tivo". How the hell do you no longer cofound something? I can see no longer being a president of a company. Or not even having anything to do with a company. But once you found something, you can't UNfound it.
"Hi, Son. I am no longer your daddy. I unprocreated you"
See my journal for slashdot ID's by year. Mine created in 2005. http://slashdot.org/journal/289875/slashdot-ids-by-year
Update: 04/21 18:54 GMT by Z : Tim Burton no longer cofounding Tivo.
wow, i guess time travel is possible on a tivo too!
Although not service related, why is it on every DVR that lets you watch live TV, there is no option to save the current buffer. It is obviously recording what you are watching since I can "rewind" up to an hour back and watch that touchdown again and again and again...
What I want button called "save what I've watched for the past half-hour"
Sometimes, halfway into a show, I decide that I wanted to record it, but I can't....the best I can do is hit record and continue to record from that point on.
Grrrr
My comcast DVR will save the current program including the buffer up to the point, if you press record.
It's been "corrected", and it's STILL wrong. Jim Barton, not Burton.
Way to go, Zonk.
*slow clap*
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.
To say that makes it sound like they haven't accomplished anything. Quite the contrary. I gave my in-laws a tivo box a year ago, and haven't had a single service call in the intervening year. My mother in law can operate the TiVo box easily. Anyone who can accomplish that should be able to knock out world hunger in short order, given the right incentive.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
AC power is unreliable. There is no power switch on a TiVo receiver. The receiver must be able to survive the loss of power at any time without losing track of its state, so a power switch is superfluous.
well, mr fancy engineer, I like to have a power switch on my expensive computers and my tv. Remember, everyone has a TV, and they all have a power switch.
You would have done much better to make it with a switch that the user knows will be safe -- nobody wants to just yank the cord from the wall to turn it off. Not even a coffee maker is that poorly designed!
Your smug "it must survive loss of power" is better suited for the bridge on Star Trek than US living rooms with regular people.
Also, I just HATE that dancing Tivo character that comes up every time my Tivo overheats and reboots. It's not cute -- send it off with Clippy and Microsoft Bob please.
Uh, my Tivo does this already.
Tivo can do that, at least it could 3 years ago when I last had one.
---- Den ene knappen er powerknapp, den andre er Bender voice knapp "Bite My Shiny Metal Ass"
Jeez, it's freaking Jim Barton. Zonk, even your lame attempt at humor is shadowed by the fact that you still can't read, even on the second time around.
I don't think you've tried enough DVRs. Tivo's buffer may be a measly 30 minutes, but if you hit "record," it copies everything in the buffer back in time to the beginning of the show you are watching.
There are still some gripes with the Tivo buffering system, but this isn't one of them. Gripes:
1. It's only 30 minutes
2. If you wait too long to hit record (ie, into the start of another show) you'll only get the airing show, not the buffered one. It should ask which one you want.
3. It clears the buffer on every channel change. (Annoying to some, beneficial to others-- perhaps a setting we could switch depending on preference?)
Soon Zonk will not be confounding Slashdot with sentences like:
Tim Burton no longer cofounding Tivo.
Founding is something that is completed in the past. Pluperfect for grammar enthusiasts or those that have learned more structured languages than English is structured.
Nobody can no longer found or cofound something.
"Wonderful machine! No off switch!"
Must've saved 'em all of about $0.39 per unit in production, eh?
TiVo does this. Just click the 'record' button as you are watching live TV and it will save all that's in the buffer AND all that is to come of the show you are watching. I do this all the time.
The DirecTV tivos, at least, have a power button. Why, I don't know-- since turning it off makes it not record anything. The power button just confuses things.
I could live without the dancing tivo guy, for sure.
What I *do* wish the tivo had is a wake-on-schedule setup for recordings. Why does the thing need to be "on" all the time? I have a cheapass HTPC that can hibernate itself and power up at a scheduled time to start a recording-- surely Tivo can do likewise. I could live without the unnecessary power usage and the (admittedly mild) fan noise.
Quit being such a dixen.
I thought the interface was pretty good with the one we have. no relability problems at all over the past two years. HD recording worked great and so did setting up recordings, FF and anything else we needed to do. I am just hopeing my new one Adelphia is as good
An armed society is a polite Society
MythTV (0.19+) does this too. Since the Live TV "recordings" are basically the same as a regular recording but with a short lifespan, you can hit "record" at any point during a show of any length and it'll flag it as a recording and automatically save the rest of the show, even if you back out of LiveTV. I do this all the time, and its great.
If you hold stock in a company that uses DRM, divest. Nothing can be a surer sign that a company's management has higher priorities than maximizing profits. Might want to check their portfolios to see if they hold stock in companies that sell "DRM technology."
Sounds like somebody needs to buy a real Tivo, not some cable-company knock-off.
That would solve your reliability and channel issues, along with having a better interface.
Some things just aren't worth skimping on...
"Swap" works this way on the HD Box as well.
I don't want to achieve immortality through my work. I want to achieve it by not dying. - Woody Allen
and boy, do I wish that I could have brought the Time Warner box with me. The Motorola POS that Comcast uses has been a pain in the ass. We've had the service for about three weeks. Three times now it's stopped receiving the video signal (the interactive guide still works, but the video signal is black), we lost all our series recording settings. Motorola seems to have decided that having a simpler remote with fewer buttons would make up for having to push those buttons 20 times to do anything in the interface.
On the Scientific Atlanta box from Time Warner, hitting record while watching a show would save everything in the buffer for the current show - and you could change channels and the show would continue recording to the end. On the Motorola box, hitting record in the middle of a show will only save from when you push the button, and changing channel will stop the recording - unless you went three levels deep in the info menu to record.
It's a mess, and I have frequently felt the urge to just shoot the box and get it done with. So how much is satellite?
His name is spelled "Slim Bugbear"! GET IT RIGHT!!!
..don't expect me to watch crap adverts.
Blaming the recorder for the fact I've got zero interest in the crap adverts isn't rational.
You're right that it isn't possible to build a MythTV HD-DVR without getting Un-encrypted HD signals via COAX, but that doesn't require a cablecard or some advanced interface to get right - just an inexpensive capture card that takes Component in, that AFAIK is not currently available. MythTV supports IR Blasters already, which is how I use my current TIVO with a cable box in the first place - were I to get an HD Cable box it could theoretically work the same if there was a readily available HD PCI or PCIe card with component in. IE the HD Signal is decrypted in the cable box -> component in on mythtv box -> tv, channels changed by mythtv box with IR Blaster.
I've noticed with Comcast service, and to a lesser degree the TIVO service, that listing quality can be a major problem.
Say, for example you have the following series subscriptions in order of priority:
1) West Wing - New and First Run Only
2) Sopranos - New and First Run Only
I'll frequently see a new episode of the Sopranos *not* get recorded because a rerun of West Wing was playing, and the DVR couldn't distinguish between the re-run and first-run. Not only that, but my storage will fill with reruns of one show or another.
While this is not entirely under the control of the DVR vendors, it is something that is vital to their customer satisfaction.
And, on another note, the Comcast High Definition DVRs are pieces of junk. I've gone through 4 of them in less than a year, and their software is plagued by numerous bugs that any competent SQA would have caught and refused to let go into a released product. Compared to my Series 1 TiVO that I have had for years, the Comcast box is shameful. I'd can it immediately if it were not the only way to get my HD programs recorded.
>If you are not willing to subscribe to the DVR manufacturer's TV listings service,
>then are you willing to subscribe to TV Guide magazine (also a service) and key
>in your own TV listings?
This information is already provided by many content providers for free. I get Guide+ program listings on my TV sets and on my computer for free. There is no need to subscribe to a service to get a program listing, nor shoult there be. If the content provider wants me to watch their content, they need to provide a way for me to alter my schedule to watch or record it. It is in the content providers' best interest to provide free scheduling information.
The grandparent is right - a DVR is a product, not a service. The only "challenge" here is it's hard to create an unending revenue stream from a product, hence the desire to try and market it as a service.
Steve
A work that expires before its copyright never enters the public domain and thus enjoys eternal copyright protection.
I get Guide+ program listings on my TV sets and on my computer for free.
I'd imagine that access to the Guide Plus (now TV Guide On Screen) listings is not actually free, that consumer electronics manufacturers pay royalties to Gemstar for use of related patents and know-how with the condition that advertisements in the service shall be displayed without modification. Makers of MythTV boxes are unlikely to be large enough to be able to negotiate with Gemstar.
>I'd imagine that access to the Guide Plus (now TV Guide On Screen [gemstartvguide.com]) listings is not actually free,
>that consumer electronics manufacturers pay royalties to Gemstar for use of related patents and know-how with the
>condition that advertisements in the service shall be displayed without modification. Makers of MythTV boxes are
>unlikely to be large enough to be able to negotiate with Gemstar.
My ATI TV Wonder tuner card in my PC supports the Guide+ service and it's rudimentary DVR feature makes use of it. I'm surprised some enterprising young hacker hasn't built a MythTV around it., EULAs be damned.
Steve
A work that expires before its copyright never enters the public domain and thus enjoys eternal copyright protection.
Tivo is the perfect example of everything I hate about DRM, the "IP economy", etc.
Jim says, in no uncertain terms, that although you might have paid $500 for the hardware, they want to secure it enough that you can't use any 3rd-party software to update the listings. That's exactly like the RIAA, MPAA, Cable TV, etc.
You bought the product, yet you don't really own it... They don't quite want to make it a product, and don't quite want to make it a service. They want to get the best of both for themselves, and screw their customers every which-way they can.
Every day I'm more and more glad I spent ~$400 on a new system with a capture card, and invested a couple weeks to set everything up, about 4 years ago... My DVR is fast enough to playback HDTV, and already has a DVI output. For the cost of a cable, and perhaps an HDTV capture card, I'm ready for the next 100 years of broadcast television. Plus I can re-encode and edit out commercials, master and record to CD, DVD (Blu-ray?) etc. right on the same old DVR.
Meanwhile, Tivo owners have to go through extensive hacks to upgrade their hard drives, transfer their recordings to their PCs to re-encode, edit, burn to DVD, etc. Have to pay monthly fees for life, or put their old series 1 Tivos on life-support, to try and keep them going forever.
My DVR may not have an interface as pretty as a Tivo (mainly just a slightly modified file-manager, a few scripts, and MPlayer, operated through an IR remote), but it's stupid-simple to use, incredibly responsive, and it will work with anything you can throw at it.
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
No, control interface and lack of reliability are not the most annoying burdens. Its the burden that is placed by design on many DVR's- the lack of 30 second skip functionality. Almost all DVR manufacturers put the capability in the software and then let the cable company determine if they want to disable it. Some branded Tivos for instance have it disabled. My Motorola PVR had it enabled (once I programmed the remote) for a long time until my cable company, Insight Communications, determined that their advertisers were more their customers than I, and disabled it.
I can deal with reliability issues. I can deal with odd control interfaces (the Motorola GUI is not so great). But I cannot deal with having to use fast forward to advance over commercials-- I do, but its the most annoying thing to deal with and the cable company's know it.
I love my ReplayTV and its commercial skip AND 30 second advance functionality. But sadly, its a dinosaur and if I want to record HD content or digitally, I have to use the Motorola Box. I still use the ReplayTV as a backup on some things so that if the Motorola DVR fails, I'll still get the program on the replaytv. It doesn't happen often, and usually its programmer error.
'The two burdens that are probably most annoying to the user are a complex and difficult control interface and lack of reliability.'
Wrong. There is only one, and it ends with two 'A's...
The grammatical pluperfect is "have" + "pluperfect past form", as in "He has eaten", or "Dick has shot his friend".
An older form uses the present form of to be" + the pluperfect past form. This can still be seen in German in phrases such as "Er ist gestorben." (Note gestorben being a verb, not an adjective.)
The ancilliary verb of the construction can also be in the past tense, indicating the action had already been completed in the past.
Founding is also an act that can be done right now - as is the proper usage of the form. It can also be used with the past form of "to be" to indicate somebody was in the middle of founding something. Thus not a perfect form, as the act is not completed.
I'd agree though, that the semantics of the sentence are muddled, at best.
MythTV now doesn't treat the "buffer" very much different to the "recordings".
It will keep *everything* you watch, given enough disk space, and expire "Live" data faster than the "Recordings" to make room for new material.
You can also promote a live buffer to a recording by pressing record.
Not sure what the story is in the USA - but from the comments you seemed starved for choice on PVR's
:(
:)
Here in Australia I got a Humax 8000T
http://www.digicams-uk.com/prod324.htm
It was Au$150 on special (Steal !)
- Builtin Digital Settop Box
- 80GB HD
- Single Tuner
- EPG
- Separate SCART output for playing recordings to a VCR
Its been very reliable - never crashed and the interface is reasonable. Has 30 sec skip
I could never go back to a VCR - these things are great, finally seeing all the good latenight shows that I couldn't be bother programming the VCR for.