Simple Open Source 3D Game Engines?

Zenitram asks: "I'm trying to find a good open source/free, 3D first/third-person game engines. I can write basic scripts and make basic programs in various programming languages, but when it comes to making 3D worlds I do not have the skill set. Most of the Open Source programs I've found are not for beginners. I've found some pretty good commercial programs, however the game I am making has no chance of ever making a profit. As such I don't really want to invest money on a personal project. Any advice?"

Comments

Alice

[Anonymous Coward]

You can try: http://www.alice.org/

Re:Alice

[smallfries]

One of the most useful sites for finding 3d engines has always been here. There are hundreds, and they can be rearranged into chosen categories.

Re:Alice

[Anonymous Coward]

Piggy backing on something visible, here's a summary of some of the shorter suggestion posts:

• http://www.alice.org/
• http://www.ogre3d.org/
• http://www.yake.org/
• http://www.delta3d.org/
• http://www.panda3d.org/
• http://www.idsoftware.com/business/techdownloads/
• http://irrlicht.sourceforge.net/
• http://www.garagegames.com/products/1

And personally I think http://sauerbraten.org/ looks interesting, but I've never used it.

Re:Alice

[Anonymous Coward]

The site hasn't been updated since 2000.

In the world of 3D programming, that's an eternity.

Re:Alice

[Mprx]

Sauerbraten is an interesting tech. demo, but it lacks occlusion culling, which makes it useless for anything except small scenes.

Re:Alice

[Anonymous Coward]

And personally I think http://sauerbraten.org/ looks interesting, but I've never used it.

Sauerbraten works quite well within its limited niche. It's not an engine at all but a self-contained FPS game based on a rather unorthodox but quite efficient representation which allows world building in-game. The representation can't really be changed nor extended without a major rewrite.

There's also another problem with it ... the code is written in a rather "unique" style, and that's being generous. It's hackable with care, but leaves something to be desired.

And don't bother trying to help the dev team. The leader is highly obnoxious, and all technical suggestions are greeted with foul mouthing and references to his godliness. It can be funny to watch, but you've been warned. The code is open, but the developers aren't.

Re:Alice

[mcasaday]

Oh fer cryin' out loud. That site hasn't been updated in over six years. Use the 3D Engines Database instead.

Re:Alice

[Arkaein]

You know, I've had Panda3D bookmarked for a while now but never really looked into what it offered in detail, and I gotta say wow, this looks great. In just a half hour looking over their docs I'm seeing that they've implemented functionality that I've struggled to get working or have had to implement myself in my part time job as a game developer for a small game studio using a professional game engine. Some of these issues are related to the terrible documentation this engine (which I won't mention by name) has, but in other cases I'm pretty sure that the engine just doesn't work quite as well as it should.

Has anyone here actually used Panda in depth? I'd love to hear if it works as good as it looks from the documentation.

Re:Alice

[smallfries]

That's quite a nice link. I think what the OP is looking for is this section covering scripting.

Re:Alice

[donscarletti]

I've used Panda3d a little as part of my undergraduate degree. Although it does do some cool stuff very easily, its biggest problem is how damn hard it is to install. It only works on x86 which sucks because many people use amd64 or something else now and even on the x86 I keept having problems with using the right libraries and getting paths right. To me the idea of a game dependancy being impossible to install makes it completly useless since no one could play your game which is written with it.

Re:Alice

[Anonymous Coward]

Checkout ORTS (http://www.cs.ualberta.ca/~mburo/orts/orts.html) platform. It is being developed at the Univ of Alberta (which has one of the biggest games research groups in the world).

skillset

[Forrest Kyle]

My advice is that you get the skillset. It sounds like you want something for nothing. Any skill requires some sort of investment, either financial or personal. You can decide which investment you'd rather make.

Re:skillset

[hackwrench]

So, how do you get the skill set? Seeing something of a chicken egg problem here. This is something Open Source in general needs to work on. None of the open source packages are easy for beginner coders to get skills.

Re:skillset

[heinousjay]

Coding is not an easy skill in general, and some branches are harder than normal. You obtain the skill by reading about it, thinking about it, and practicing it. There's really no shortcut you can take to become a 3D graphics guru.

This is akin to saying that the NFL doesn't make it easy for high school players to get drafted.

Re:skillset

[hackwrench]

Um, could you at least provide a dewey decimal number or something?

No, it's more like saying the minor leagues doesn't make it easy... no, not quite, more like saying once you're out of HS there's really not much infrastructure for learning any given sport.

Re:skillset

[TerranFury]

I agree wholeheartedly with the parent. This is a hobby project, right? The point is to have fun, and to learn something? In that case, I think you'll have more fun if you don't start with a premade "game engine."

Start from scratch. It sounds intimidating, but that's just because you haven't tried it: You will be amazed at what you can do.

You don't need to spend any money. Compilers are freely-available. Between that, the web as a reference, and your own intelligence and creativity, that's all you need!

Do you know a programming language? If not: You say you can write scripts. If you can learn to write scripts, you can learn to write code. If you need to choose a language, I'd recommend C++ or Java; C++ is probably the most commonly-used language in game development. This site was an important reference for me when I was getting started. Go through all the tutorials. Don't rush to get out of the console: It's a great place to focus on your logic and your algorithms without worrying about interfacing with graphics APIs. It's where you learn how to think about programming.

Then, graphics! I'd suggest you start with some OpenGL programming. That's for a number of reasons. It's not just that OpenGL code is widely portable: Compared to Direct3D code, it's a breeze to write. Carmack himself wrote a piece about how OpenGL programming is a straightforward, enjoyable experience.

Where to start? Try NeHe's tutorials, and its parent site, gamedev.net. That's how I started writing OpenGL code, and I had a lot of fun doing it.

Then, think about what sorts of worlds you want to represent. Landscapes? Indoors? Look up the relevant algorithms and data structures. You care about spatial partitioning schemes, occlusion culling, and LOD. This is where it starts to get advanced. Here, you'll learn more than just to code; you'll learn some actual Computer Science.

You don't need to worry about this now, but when you get to the point where you're ready for it, there's stuff you can google. Spatial partitioning: BSP (older algorithm, computationally beautiful, generally used for indoors), Octtrees (more modern approach, conceptually simpler, lets you efficiently throw stuff at the graphics card), Quadtrees (variant for outdoor environments where the map extends mainly in two dimensions), K-D trees (special case of BSP which behaves more like Oct or Quad-trees). LOD: For outdoor scenes in particular: ROAM, geomipmapping. Occlusion culling and visibility: Portals, precomputed PVS, image-space techniques with occluders.

Just explore, experiment, and have fun. You'll learn a lot.

Re:skillset

[caffeination]

As much as I agree with you, we get this answer in every single Ask Slashdot that's open ended enough to allow for it.

Re:skillset

[d34thm0nk3y]

Ugh, the whole point of progress is so that you don't have to rediscover the wheel for every single project.

The guy asks for suggestions on a good 3d engine and yours is to code it from scratch, but in what language? If you want built in functions or object orientation you are asking for something for nothing.

All those high level languages are for wimps, why don't you get the skillset to code the whole thing in assembly or raw binary?

Any skill requires some sort of investment, either financial or personal. You can decide which investment you'd rather make.

Except for all those free engines listed in the actually useful posts.

Re:skillset

[Anonymous Coward]

My advice is that you get the skillset. It sounds like you want something for nothing. Any skill requires some sort of investment, either financial or personal. You can decide which investment you'd rather make.

Right! I keep telling that people who use Java instead of C.... or C++ instead of emulating OO in C...

If this get's modded funny, the joke is on my side ;-)

Re:skillset

[Anonymous Coward]

There are a couple of free compilers to start with as well. The gcc/g++ ones to start with (http://gcc.gnu.org/). I find those to be a tad harder to setup but are completly free and you can look at the code under it (if thats what you want). There is also the visual studio compiler. There is a free learner edition (express) that comes with the gui and the SDKs are fairly straight forward to get and setup (http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/express/default .aspx). I recomend the vs one if you are going to do any sort of directx stuff. Also if you are going to do that I would get a few COM tutuorials to get you into the groove of making and destroying objects.

I also recomend getting a book or two. Even if you just go to the library to get one. There are also a few companies that have released the source to their older stuff (Quake I/II/II, Freespace, etc...).

Above all have fun with it.

Re:skillset

[kunzy]

I don't really agree with this post. If you are interested in the technical details then go ahead and write an engine. I'm sure it's fun. But it's not really necessary if you want to make games. You can learn a lot by using a game engine. I think it's just a different thing, writing a game engine and writing a game. So if you are interested in GAME programming, then I'd go with one of the open source engines. Making a game that way is hard enough.

Re:skillset

[theVicar]

After seeing people from that background follow the same advice given them by more advanced programmers, I can say from experience that this is usually bad advice.

Unless the person's real interest is in learning about culling algorithms with the eventual goal of improving on them or inventing new ones, please don't tell them to write a 3D engine from scratch and then sometime later start looking up things on how to implement their own culling algorithms from scratch. For them it would be a waste of time, unless they are more interested in 3D game engine architecture than in getting their game design idea up and running, which is clearly not the case. The fact that John Carmack says all this stuff is fun and easy might not be the best argument...

Like someone else said, it's not surprising that there aren't a lot of good choices of cheap/free 3D game engines that are well-designed and easy to use. It's a huge design and engineering task to create something like that. Try Blender, Torque, Unity(if you have a Mac), Panda3D, Alice, Yake, maybe do a tutorial in each to see if any of them will do what you need. If none of those work out, maybe try a 3D rendering engine like Ogre or Irrlicht together with other libraries for physics or whatever - this will require being comfortable in C++ though.

I will say that it's probably going to be worth it to take a course / get a book on C++, whatever you do - it will allow you access to a wider range of tools, and also the ability to figure out how something works (if it's well-designed) by reading the source code when the documentation isn't cutting it. Also, if what you're mainly doing is using a single high-level game engine with a C++ API, a lot of what you'll be doing with C++ will be much like scripting anyway.

Re:skillset

[MaestroSartori]

No. Wrong wrong wrong. Wrong! Assuming the guy wants to learn about game programming rather than 3D engine programming, that is... ;)

See, most people who work in the games industry don't write 3D engines. And the ones that do often don't get to actually work on games, they get shunted off into R&D or game support roles. The rest of us write other systems, like AI or physics or GUI/HUD or cameras, or any number of other things. Or we implement gameplay stuff using all of the above systems (that's what I do, yay me!) :D

For some reason though, the graphics programming aspect has glamour. Maybe it's just the easiest one to see a result from, I dunno. But whatever the reason is, you can virtually guarantee that unless you're a really outstanding graphics programmer, you'll be doing something else a most of the time.

And if the op is doing this solely as a hobby project, I'd offer my opinion that working on some of these other areas of a game is more accessible, and more fun, than doing graphics stuff. Just writing graphics code won't really result in a playable game, whereas writing some basic AI gets you into the realm of simple games of many kinds. But at the end of the day, if he or she ss asking for a graphics engine, I guess graphics isn't really what they want to work on :)

Re:skillset

[stoborrobots]

As others have pointed out, Google is your friend.

Nevertheless, Here are some starters:

• The NeHe tutorials are a good place to start, if you want to start with code...
  
• From a theory perspective, books are good, like 3D Math Primer for Graphics and Game Development, and some community sites too, like GameDev's Graphics Theory section.
  
• Realtime Rendering - the website associated with the book of the same name. I never really made it through the book, but the web page has an excellent collection of links to other sources of information....
  
• Forums like GameDev.net and Devmaster are another approach.
  

And if you like the library, the Dewey Decimal codes for game programming are something like 005.1 and 794.8

HTH. Cheers.

Re:skillset

[datawhore]

Ahh slashdot.

Caveman: "I'm hungry. I want to hunt for some small rodents. I'm not very fast or strong and I really would like some food now. Know where I can find where some hide?"

Cavedot: "Oh, you don't want to do that. What you reall want to do is catch a wooly mammoth, you'll appreciate the meat so much more, and you'll learn how to take down an 8 ton beast in the process.. what could be cooler than that? What you should do is go over there and lift those rocks until you get strong enough, then go find a large branch and make a set of spears yourself, then go roam the tundra for 20 days until you see a mammoth. It's easy."

Caveman: "..."

Re:skillset

[donscarletti]

Graphics gurudom comes from knowing both maths and programming. For maths you need to understand vectors, matricies, linear maps, geometry and triganometry, mostly highschool stuff but some stuff there that's a little more advanced. For programming you need to know C and/or C++ fairly deeply, you need to understand data structures (especially trees) and you have to be able to create clever algorithms and solutions on your own. After you have those skills you can start using OpenGL or DirectX to make graphical applications like games.

I don't think it is really worth doing 3d programming in terms of a learning experience until you know the fundimentals. If there were a tool that one could use to write graphics stuff without understanding matrix maths one would probably come out of the experience still not understanding matrix maths since one would not need it with that tool. Go to a university book shop, you should be able to find a decent mathamatics text book that covers vector spaces and linear maps, read that. Then check out the NeHe OpenGL tutorials and learn OpenGL. Now you will know the fundimentals of 3d graphics and you can just practice until you are good.

Re:skillset

[Garrett Fox]

Thanks to you and the parent poster. I've spent many hours working on an AI project and related stuff, and one of the most frustrating aspects of that is the amount of time I've had to devote to graphics. Everything I do looks ugly regardless of what it's doing, because of the lack of good graphics -- but I can't let that distract me from the main project. Both posts give me something to think about.

Anyway, yeah -- if you want to learn game programming, you should start with ultra-simple demos like a text-based "guess the number" game to learn about loops and decision-making, then maybe advance to 2D graphics to understand sprites, textures, GUIs, and collision.

Re:skillset

[mausmalone]

Having the skillset couldn't hurt, though. I could see how not knowing anything about how 3D data is represented or how a game engine handles level layouts and construction would impede your ability to write decent AI routines.

Maybe not actually learn to code an engine, but reading some background information on how they work at the core level could be helpful.

Crystal Space 3D

[The Snowman]

It might not be as simple as what you need, but Crystal Space 3D might work.

Ogre 3d

[Andyman1134]

Ogre is a great 3d graphics library, and cross platform.. Unfortunately it is not (nor will be) a complete gaming library. What I recommend is that you learn the c++ skills (which will serve you well) and use Ogre. Then you can make great games without having to learn the math involved (which is a lot) and the graphics rendering (which even with a masters in math I still think is a nightmare.)

Re:Ogre 3d

[Anonymous Coward]

I second this. I started using Ogre3D a couple of days ago, I've been using the Python bindings and PyODE (Python bindings for the ode phyics engine). In the space of one day I'd consturcted a simple third person demo, using the demo-media that comes with Ogre. I'm in the process of learning how to use Blender to make my own models. But my experience with Ogre has been great - documentation, source and loads of examples. That being said I'd already written a 3D engine in C++ for a project at college, Ogres list of features tempted me away from hard work.^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H writing my own engine.

Re:Ogre 3d

[kunzy]

Ogre has nice Python bindings, which makes it well suited for beginners. See here: http://www.ogre3d.org/wiki/index.php/PyOgre. Also it's lgpl, which makes it very free to use.

Re:Ogre 3d

[Anonymous Coward]

You can skip out of some of the hard work of using ^H by using ^W.

Blender

[WWWWolf]

Try Blender. It is good if you want to start learning how to make 3D stuff - some may say it's really difficult to get started with, but I say it's sometimes better to just do things with weight on your feet =) - and it has a really simple 3D game engine that's basically "join stuff with your mouse". You can script it pretty easily in Python. Blender also exports stuff pretty widely, so you can use it to model stuff for "real" 3D engines. (I've heard Blender + GtkRadiant + CrystalSpace rocks.)

And yes, 3D modeling for games is difficult when you start. Don't give up. I'm not a gigantic big expert either, but Blender is simple enough and I've seen people do amazing things with it.

Re:Blender

[Anonymous Coward]

Blender is an awesome peice of software. I have been using it for 2 years now and I'm really enjoying it. You can build games by click and drag if you want but there also a pretty in depth python engine. Pixel2life.org has some great tutorials.

Re:Blender

[ValiantSoul]

Personally I'm a big fan of Cinema 4D when it comes to modelling - just my 2 cents though

OGRE

[Anonymous Coward]

Ogre3d http://www.ogre3d.org/

Ogre and friends

[Anonymous Coward]

If you're willing to spend the time learning C++, using Ogre is very rewarding in terms of what you can accomplish with (fairly) little code. Ogre only handles (3d) graphics though and even though there are additional bindings for tying into 3rd party GUI/physics libraries, you'll be handling the bulk of integration yourself.

Of course, there's also Yake, which is more aimed at being a complete game development framework.

If you're not interested in building a game from scratch, have you looked into implementing your game as a mod for some already existing game?

Re:Ogre and friends

[Baldrake]

Ogre has some really strong points (I use it!), but it requires knowledge of programming and linear algebra. It also has a fairly steep technology curve to get past: to create a game, you need to assemble a number of tools, many of which have minor compatibility problems that require technical expertise to resolve. This is not a tool that non-programmers can just pick up and start producing games with.

Re:Ogre and friends

[irc.goatse.cx troll]

"If you're not interested in building a game from scratch, have you looked into implementing your game as a mod for some already existing game?"

I'd go a step further. Grab quakeworld(preferably a fork like ezquake of ftequake, depending on what you need) learn quakec, and make a mod. Anything you can't do in quakec, mod the client to do. In the end you'll already have real nice netcode and a good overall game base, and have other people adding features you can easily adapt to your game.

3d engine

[Anonymous Coward]

Try taking a look at Panda 3D

http://www.panda3d.org/

It's designed to be simple; and is in use by major game developers

Delta3D

[Some Guy]

http://www.delta3d.org/ - "If it's good enough for the Yankee Army, it's good enough for you!"

Good question...

[jettoki]

But I don't think there are any simple solutions. I recommend grabbing a copy of the original Half-Life and downloading the SDK. Developing for HL is fairly simple if you know a bit of C++ and enough about CAD to map with the Valve Hammer Editor. Modelling ain't so easy, but there's no solution for that other than just learning to do it.

Pick two...

[NevarMore]

Simple, Open Source, 3D Game Engine

You get any two.

Re:Pick two...

[smallfries]

Your comment is troll / insightful / flamebait. Pick any two...

Re:Pick two...

[LetterRip]

"Simple, Open Source, 3D Game Engine

You get any two."

www.blender.org - it can use logic blocks that you visually connect or python scripting for game logic - easy. It is GPL licensed - open source. It is fully 3D game engine - graphics (including GLSL if you use python); physics; sound; armature system; logic system; etc. So there are options for all three.

Re:Pick two...

[Pseudonym]

www.blender.org

Good point. Let me revise the OP:

Simple, Open Source, Robust, 3D Game Engine. Pick at most three.

Re:Pick two...

[Anonymous Coward]

You know what the best part about free software is?

Nobody is forcing you to use it.

Now fuck off.

Re:Pick two...

[Pseudonym]

You know what the best part about free software is?

Why, yes. If what you want doesn't exist, write it your-fscking-self. If other people want it too, they might even help you.

Panda3D

[napdawger42]

Panda3D is pretty decent if you're using Windows (it supposedly runs on Linux and Mac OS X with increasing levels of difficulty). It supports shaders and other such fun things if you're into that, and has Python scripting, which is always fun.

Piracy?

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe the commercial programs that you want are available on Usenet?

Torque

[Beowulf_Boy]

For 100$ you can get torque. It was the best investment I ever made.
I'm a gaming and simulation major at college, and I needed something for my senior project. I still have a year left before I have to start on it, but I decided to get a jump start.

99% of things you want to do can be done with the scripting langauge in torque, which in my opinion is very C like. Milkshape will let you export your models to .DTS format which is what torque uses, and you can do all of your mapping with Valve's Hammer Editor, which is a very nice editor.

I'm working on a project with 2 friends, ones a character modeler, ones a mapper, and I'm the progamming guy to put it all together. most of what I want to do has already been done before, so all I have to do is look on the torque forums to find step by step directions on how to do everything from adding flashlights, adding vehicles, night visions, or anything else I could possibly want.

And, if you buy the upgraded lighting pack for 50$, the torque engine looks very pretty.

Re:Torque

[Beowulf_Boy]

I thought I should include the site to get it from.

www.garagegames.com

Re:Torque

[Anonymous Coward]

Torque is the best bang for the buck. They have a great 2D and 3D Engine for almost next to nothing, support is great and their documentation gets better and better over time. Almost everything you need is done in their easy to learn scripting language and you have full access to the source in case it doesn't. They'll also market and sell your game if you ever needed to go down that path, and their 3D engine is also XBox 360 ready for an easy conversion when the homebrew for the 360 takes off in a year or so :)

Re:Torque

[KDR_11k]

Oh and keep in mind that telling your artist to use Milkshape is akin to raping him with a hot iron poker. Blender crushes Milkshape like a grain of rice. Milkshape sucks horribly for anything except basic mesh modelling and even there it's like driving a nail into the wall with your thumb, Blender is just a better tool in every single respect.

Re:Torque

[nb caffeine]

what the GP didnt note is that there is plugins for every major modeling evironment out there. Milkshape is the one of choice because its cheap (yes, i know blender is OSS, but it wasn't open source when TGE was released almost 5 years ago)

I agree with you, Milkshape is worse than hell, but I like to point out that no matter what 3D modeling package you use, there is an art pipeline into TGE. That, and the community rocks (disclaimer: I do own both TGE and TGB. Both are awesome. Have been working with TGE since it came out in 2001). If you want to get really fancy, there is the TSE, but thats windows only AFAIK

Re:Torque

[Beowulf_Boy]

Or my 3d guy can be smart and use Lightwave or maya. I'm sorry, but Blender sucks. Bad. Every single 3d guy that I know that has tried to use it just laughs at it. Its horrible. Maybe in ten years it will be up to snuff.

Re:Torque

[KDR_11k]

Most people just look at Blender and give up after five minutes because you can't do anything without an interface tutorial. Many attempt to use it via GUI while it's pretty much completely hotkey driven. Lightwave and Maya are better, yes, but they aren't exactly affordable. The Blender devs seem to react much faster to user requests, though.

Re:Torque

[budgenator]

Blender is on of those program that for some people just seems to click with them, if it doesn't you're probably better off elsewhere. Blender's UI is very good if your a short-cut key thinker, if you're a point and click thinker forget it.

Game coding is not for beginners

[NekoXP]

You know you can't just pick up some tool and press 10 buttons to get a game; that's what beginners want to do. 3D Game Construction Kit doesn't exist because the dynamics of a 3D game are so HUGE.

Writing scripts in a game, as you say you can do, is possible only because someone wrote huge swathes of code behind it, including tying a scripting engine into hundreds or thousands of classes and objects.

If you got a "simple" tool, it would be too simple to give you the environment you are currently comfortable and competant in coding in. You need to get more complicated :)

Re:Game coding is not for beginners

[lisaparratt]

What, you mean other than 3D Construction Kit, the development environment for the old Freescape engine, designed for exactly that purpose?

Admittedly, it is virtually impossible to make either a good or fun game with it, but that's beside the point.

Re:Game coding is not for beginners

[Dr.Altaica]

World Foundry GDK
http://sourceforge.net/projects/wf-gdk/

Re:Game coding is not for beginners

[NekoXP]

It's NOT besides the point. It *IS* the point.

3DCK was way way too complicated. I had a copy of it when it first came out for the Amiga, and didn't get very far; it was even worse than the SecondLife modeller (which is saying something) and only being able to walk around kind of boring virtual worlds, shooting a laser into the middle or so, was more than limited.

I don't think anyone made any decent games or even virtual worlds in it, that were ever available on public domain BBS or so.

Re:Game coding is not for beginners

[KDR_11k]

Amiga. You do know that software has advanced quite a bit since then, right? I do remember some WYSIWYG 3d game creation system (and I'm not referring to the program by Pie In The Sky) where you just drag code blocks together to form your game somewhen 'round 2000-2001. There's the Blender game engine as well, while it's not very good for serious purposes it can support some simple games and allows Python scripting. And while pricey, Unreal Engine 3's level scripts are WYSIWYG affairs as well and alledgedly capable of describing an entire game logic.

Re:Game coding is not for beginners

[WWWWolf]

3D Game Construction Kit doesn't exist because the dynamics of a 3D game are so HUGE.

1) Blender is a "click and point and voila, you have a 3D game" thing. =)

2) There was, in fact, a 3D Construction Kit for 8-bit and 16-bit machines alike, built by Incentive + Domark, I think. Basically a point-and-click-and-some-scripting interface to their Freescape 3D engine (which was used in Castle Master and Driller, I think). Google Video seems to have the demo/tutorial video tape that came with it... I had this thing and it was pretty darn impressive and simple. (Ran dog slow on a C64, though, made me hope for an Amiga...)

Re:Game coding is not for beginners

[nagora]

Admittedly, it is virtually impossible to make either a good or fun game with it

I disagree; I had a great time with it making 3d adventure games. That ran like consumptive dogs. I suspect they would run somewhat more quickly today.

TWW

Quake engines

[layernheart]

Quake 1-3's engines have been GPL'd. You can find them on ID's ftp server. If you're looking for the best available free engine I think Q3's would be near the top of the list.

Re:Quake engines

[snowtigger]

Great suggestion.

The Quake code is very well written and organized. Reading it would give an aspiring game programmer some useful ideas of what to think about when designing a game engine.

Re:Quake engines

[imbaczek]

Parent is right up to a point:

DON'T USE THE ORIGINAL ID QUAKE SOURCES.

I repeat: don't use them. There's been a LOT of open source development going into all three of quake engines. Quake 1 and 2 are just a google away; quake 3 deserves special attention as it is relatively young: icculus quake 3 (and that's only one of many, many forks, but arguably the most known.)

Re:Quake engines

[Schraegstrichpunkt]

DON'T USE THE ORIGINAL ID QUAKE SOURCES.

I repeat: don't use them. There's been a LOT of open source development going into all three of quake engines.

Indeed. This is especially true for the older engines. John Carmack apparently had to hack a lot of things in order to get the games to perform adequately on whatever hardware he was targetting. Thanks to Moore's law, a lot of those contraints no longer apply, and free software developers are taking advantage of that fact.

Game design is not for beginners

[billcopc]

The reason most game engines are complicated is because 3D game design is not for beginners, mostly due to the broad compromises we make due to technological limitations. Heck, just 3D graphic design is a beast to learn. Anyone can draw with a pen and paper, that's 2D.. photoshop, illustrator, these can be learned in a couple days. 3D is not something that's easily adapted between reality and virtual worlds.

Re:Game design is not for beginners

[the grace of R'hllor]

Beyond being able to make marks on a piece of paper, the ability to draw is not something learned easily. It requires a huge extension to your personal knowledge base, same as 3D modelling. The main difference is the tools used.

Re:Game design is not for beginners

[I(rispee_I(reme]

Sure it is. Sculpting's harder than drawing in the real world, too.

Re:Game design is not for beginners

[KDR_11k]

You can learn how to swing a brush in minutes. You can learn how to plot polygons in minutes as well. Neither means that you'll be able to make anything resembling a human. Both drawing and modeling requires training. There are advanced techniques in both Photoshop and 3D you have to master if you wish to make good art in a reasonable timeframe.

Mod mod mod

[sd.fhasldff]

"If you're not interested in building a game from scratch, have you looked into implementing your game as a mod for some already existing game?"

Mod parent up for suggesting a mod.

Seriously.

Unless you have VERY specific requirements for your game, you should be able to get quite far by creating a mod for an existing game. Now, that could either be a close sourced game or an open sourced game, that's entirely up to you.

Since you stated that your game is never going to make any money anyway, going with a commercial, open source game seems viable. This opens up the possibilities even further. Depending on the type of game you had in mind, Quake3 and Descent2 are both mod'able and both have their source code freely available.

If you don't want to use a commercial open source game, you could use one of the many "free" open source game (feel free to insert the obligatory speech and beer comments here), e.g. Vegastrike ( http://vegastrike.sourceforge.net/ ).

All that said, you don't NEED the source if you can keep it 100% in the mod realm - and people have done some amazing things with mods!

Re:Mod mod mod

[sd.fhasldff]

lol, I see Vegastrike recently moved to Ogre...

Irrlicht

[game_dev]

You should try Irrlicht: [ http://irrlicht.sourceforge.net/ ]

It's relativily easy and yet versatile and powerfull

A bit of a contradiction

[Yst]

"I'm trying to find a good open source/free, 3D first/third-person game engines. I can write basic scripts and make basic programs in various programming languages, but when it comes to making 3D worlds I do not have the skill set.

So let me get this straight: you're looking for an engine which allows you to build something you readily admit you are unable to build?

This is rather baffling. It seems like your skillset (scripting, basic coding, no modelling or worldcraft) would strongly recommend itself to modding or storytelling within existing commercial engines where there's a huge base of art, maps, models and media inherently available, which let you do the scripting and writing with little compulsory art design. If you want to do something FPS style, why not Source? If you want to do something RPG style, why not NWN2 when it comes out, or NWN now? As nice as it would be to have an open source alternative, a high quality open source game SDK with all the functionality of the more comprehensive commercial equivalents (with the various fan-made tools which have been created to complement them) simply does not exist.

Re:A bit of a contradiction

[dhasenan]

Hm. The source code for Quake 3 measures roughly five megabytes. This person claims that he does not have the skills, on his own, to design and implement such a large project single-handedly. While it would greatly behoove him to learn enough to understand a 3D gaming engine, enough to create a rudimentary one alone and design a more feature-full one; it's not fair to give him a text editor and say "I expect pixel shaders working by next week".

Moreover, the original question was for a simple open source engine. Why specify open source if he didn't hope to learn about the engine itself?

Re:A bit of a contradiction

[Jack9]

So let me get this straight: you're looking for an engine which allows you to build something you readily admit you are unable to build?

This is rather baffling.

There's nothing out of the ordinary about a person admitting that they are not very familiar with how to properly implement a very complicated system. Looking for a packaged suite is quite typical.

While you may be competent enough to write an inventory control system, that doesn't mean you are confident or even interested in discovering, coding, and implmenting the features that stock managers would consider "basic"...especially with the wide variation from industry to industry (discovery!).

This should help relieve your baffle.

Citadel vs. Bazaar

[hackwrench]

It just seems that when it actually comes to learning the stuff the answer is "Go to the citadel".

Re:Citadel vs. Bazaar

[heinousjay]

Google stuff like crazy, I guess. I'm personally not involved in 3d enough to tell you where to look. My focus is in data processing and storage, not graphics, and there's not a whole heck of a lot of overlap, aside from the general focus on efficiency.

Googling for tutorials should turn something up - a cursory glance shows a tremendous number of them available.

I can give you some general advice: try to keep frustration at bay. 3d is HARD to get a grasp on completely unless you're one of those supergeniuses that just understands it intuitively. There's a lot to learn. You just have to plug ahead.

Sorry I can't be more helpful.

Re:Citadel vs. Bazaar

[sedyn]

Isn't that the only way to really do it, without people becoming free teachers (teaching is something that takes patentience, and sacrifice of time)?

If you want to know something and I can say RTFM, and point you to a good manual (on my desk right now I have the C Bible and a well known book about compilers), that has taught thousands of people in the past, isn't it a lot simpler and less risky then me trying to explain something that I've never explained before (most profs I know that are teaching a new course are constantly afraid of teaching it improperly, because they've never recieved feedback on the notes before, well the good ones anyway).

I mean, if you have questions while reading a manual then by all means ask. But if you want to ask 30 people for an impromptu lesson, most will probably only try to teach the book anyway. So cut out the middle man and get the tried and true solution, if possible.

Remember, the bazaar just lets things happen, under the assumption someone will want them to. Tutorials and forums are the only things I see that answer that model.

Re:Citadel vs. Bazaar

[hackwrench]

But where are the community generated tutorials, and the tutorials that have you play a game or do some computer guided exercises? Most tutorials are written by one person, and merely rehash the "one true way that worked for them". Where are the programs that detects where the person is struggling and adjusts the curriculum accordingly?

When it comes to forums on the other hand, why haven't any specific ones been mentioned here?

Re:Citadel vs. Bazaar

[KDR_11k]

I don't think 3d is that hard, sure it uses university-level maths but what you're lacking there you can read up on. Most of the problems you are going to encounter have been solved in traditional math already, you just need to transscribe the algorithms into your programming language (and know where and how to use them, of course). The basic transformations and lighting are done by the API, the hardest part is optimizing stuff and even that has been explored thoroughly. Of course you're not going to churn out a state-of-the-art engine on your first try but you'll get something more than workable easily.

Re:Citadel vs. Bazaar

[sedyn]

Most tutorials are written by one person, and merely rehash the "one true way that worked for them".

As opposed to many people doing the exact same thing? Take graphics, I have the book "Computer Graphics: Principles and Practice" by 4 different people. The thing is huge, and pretty comprehensive about 2D and 3D graphics. But all they did was create the "one true way." Would the book be different if only one author had written it? Probably not.

And play a game? The game that programmers play is called "solve the puzzle" where they have to figure stuff out. If you think you can effectively teach with a "normal" game, then by all means try. But learning some things is boring and frustrating as hell. Grokking those pieces and putting them together on the other hand is one of the most rewarding things you could ever do. One of the greatest joys I've had in CS is figuring out tough algorithms, despite the amount of time I've spent working on any given problem.

As I said earlier, if you are struggling with a specific concept or problem, just ask. That method is a lot better then having knowledgable people assume where the bottlenecks of comprehension are in advance.

BTW, Google groups is my first point for forums (in general). Common problems are typically brought up there by someone else. The hardest part is specifically phrasing what you want. But with computer languages it isn't that bad.

That being said, I know I'm not the fastest at learning new things, nor am I the best at reading manuals. Far from it. Sadly, you have to get used to it. I don't know if you are looking to get into the computer industry, but from what I've seen, I've never been able to rest on my laurels. And in the real world of computing, documentation sucks the most where you need it. Consider it an extension of Murphy's Law.

Spring! Open source RTS Engine

[Viperion]

http://taspring.clan-sy.com/

Spring is an open source RTS Engine, created by fans of Total Annihilation. There is actually an active gaming community, and mods based on the engine, like Star Wars : Spring, based on the SW:TA mod.

Steam activation

[tepples]

why not Source?

Steam's activation is the problem. I've read horror stories here on Slashdot of overloaded activation servers and inability to play on machines that are never connected to the Internet for security or economic reasons.

Re:Steam activation

[KDR_11k]

Actually with modding I'd be more worried about the code itself, the Source SDK is supposedly VERY messy, I've seen mods switch from HL2 to other engines (Quake 4 I think) simply because Source is a huge PITA.

Toruqe

[BShive]

http://www.garagegames.com/ It's $99, but a great engine and has some very good support from the company and community. If you're really serious about it, $99 is incredibly cheap for the value it offers.

Panda3D

[rrwood]

http://panda3d.org/what.php

What is Panda3D?

Panda3D is a 3D engine: a library of subroutines for 3D rendering and game development. The library is C++ with a set of Python bindings. Game development with Panda3D usually consists of writing a Python program that controls the the Panda3D library.

Panda3D is unusual in that its design emphasis is on supporting a short learning curve and rapid development. It is ideal whenever deadlines are tight and turnaround time is of the essence.

For example, in a class called Building Virtual Worlds at the Entertainment Technology Center, interdisciplinary groups of four students are asked to create virtual worlds in two weeks each. Screenshots of their projects are visible throughout this site. Panda3D is what makes this rapid turnaround possible.

Panda3D was developed by Disney for their massively multiplayer online game, Toontown. It was released as free software in 2002. Panda3D is now developed jointly by Disney and Carnegie Mellon University's Entertainment Technology Center.

The Build Engine - the engine behind Duke Nukem 3D

[NeilRyan]

One suggestion: Why not wander over to Jonathan Fowler's games web site http://jonof.edgenetwork.org/ and take a look?

The engine behind Duke Nukem 3D (and Shadow Warrior) was written by Ken Silverman, and was called the "Build Engine." Ken released the source code for the engine in 2000, then 3D Realms released the code for Duke in 2003 and for Shadow Warrior in 2005.

Jonathan Fowler (JonoF) has ported all of these from Win95/Win98 to WinXP, with Ken Silverman's help.

At the very least, give the games a try - JonoF and Ken did some very fine work, and it's a lot of fun to play with Duke and Lo Wang once more.

And, you never know - the work they already did may be useful to you as a springboard for the project you have in mind.

As the person above said - do plan to put some time into this.

Good luck, and enjoy!

jMonkeyEngine (.com)

[Anonymous Coward]

Easy language (Java), easy API. OpenGL. Windows/Mac/Linux. Complete API (input, sound, 3d, etc), and fairly mature (been around for years, used for commercial developement by several companies now) and active. BSD licensed. But for a beginner like you, most importantly a strong community that welcomes many new users like yourself.

Ok, (disclaimer) so I am a developer in this project now. But only because it was simple enough to jump right in when I was a new user myself. Like any open source engine it has some rough spots. But compared to the other projects mentioned here (OGRE, Irlicht, etc.) it really focuses on making things easy with many utility classes and methods, rather than just the latest features.. while still giving you complete freedom to make what you want (as long as OpenGL can handle it) and high performance.

If you really have no idea of how 3D works, I'd go with some of the "click and drag" projects mentioned here, if only to teach you the basics.

www.jMonkeyEngine.com could use an update, but you can check some webstartable features, the forums (very active, also many links to programs using it in there), and there's a dev dairy on how to quickly make a game with this engine.

Cube and Sauerbraten

[RealNitro]

Check out Cube and Sauerbraten. Both are 100% open source game engines.

Except that Blender does it

[Animats]

You know you can't just pick up some tool and press 10 buttons to get a game; that's what beginners want to do. 3D Game Construction Kit doesn't exist because the dynamics of a 3D game are so HUGE.

Except that Blender actually does have such a thing. You actually can build a game from scratch by pointing and clicking. It's not easy, but it's quite possible. Get the Blender Game Kit book with sample games and start from there. It's relatively easy to do something at the Marble Madness level, and a good driving game is possible.

Try the Blender Game Engine

[jtriska]

Try the Blender Game Engine. You have all your 3d tools right there in one package. The engine is quite versatile, and now supports GLSL shaders, multi view ports, and physics. http://www.blender3d.org/

Isometric engines?

[Rekolitus]

Myself, I've been looking for an isometric engine, preferably with Python or .NET bindings. Anyone seen one around?

Re:Isometric engines?

[Lobosch]

http://www.pygame.org/ could be worth a look. look at the libraries section for isometric engines. MfG Lobosch

Re:Isometric engines?

[HanClinto]

One Python library that I've enjoyed good success with is Phil's pyGame Utilities (PGU). It has support for square, isometric, and hex tiling. It's very easy to program in, and has been consistently actively developed for as long as I've been using it, which is about 6 months.

Cheers!

--clint

Soya3D

[bitspotter]

Soya3d is a 3d engine written as a Python module (really). Being a python beginner, and someone who hasn't written a lick of C in ten years, I can tell you it's EXCELLENT. It even comes with a sample 3rd person game, Balazar, that has been fun to play (although it's not quite done) //and// to tweak under the hood.

I highly recommend it.

This is over and above the other mentions of Ogre3d, Nevrax, Cube/Sauerbraten, the Quakes, Nexuiz, the Worldforge projects, etc.

Re:Soya3D

[ArcRiley]

Soya3d is excellent for a beginning programmer being as it's very high level and beautifully maps 3d objects to programming objects. It's also powerful enough to be used for "professional" games designed with low/mid level hardware in mind.

It's available for GNU/Linux, MacOSX, and Windows. You can even use standard tools to build a Windows .exe of your finished program which doesn't require the end user to install either Python or Soya.

The documentation for Soya is a bit lacking, though there's many examples available in both finished games which use it and a set of tutorials available in a seperate package for download. One example, gameskel-5, shows how easy writting a game can be.

Unlike Panda, Soya is available under a free software license (GPL-2).

MOD PARENT UP!

[Anonymous Coward]

LOL.

One of the old guard, I see. Those were the days ... :P

Re:OpelGL == Beating a dead horse

[Eideewt]

Yeah, but what if some of use want to program 3d games and we don't personally actually run Windows. That might be kind of a setback, don't you think? And even some Windows developers might want a cross-platform option. Instead of, you know, being a dick to everyone that doesn't run Windows. I don't know what platform the original poster develops on, but since he seems to be into OSS, it seems just barely possible that a Windows only solution might be a dumb suggestion.

Quesa

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.quesa.org/

the open source implementation of Apple's QuickDraw 3D

Stable, finished, well documented

scripting language... very C like

[jbellis]

That's NOT what I want in a scripting language. :-|

Re:scripting language... very C like

[Kadin2048]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess you don't use csh then, do you?

Re:scripting language... very C like

[Anonymous Coward]

'c like' means it's going to be somewhat like Perl, Java, C++, C#, ActionScript, JavaScript, etc.

A lot of languages are C based and anything that resembles C will be easier to read/learn/write and increase your user base dramatically.

Chances are you'll know one language that already resembles torquescript and it'll be easy to read/pick up :)

VPython

[icleprechauns]

We used a program called VPython in my physics class for simulations. It doesn't have a lot of features at all, and its cbut if you're looking for simple 3D graphics, it's amazing. I used to be a teaching assistant for the intro to Java class at the my University, which all engineers were required to take. What was amazing was that after 10 weeks, no body knew Java in a class that was dedicated solely to teaching it, and yet, in my physics class, people were able to mess around with VPython in only a week. Consequently, this is also a testament to the power and simplicity of Python.

Reality Factory

[abandonment]

Depends on what kind of game you're trying to make really.

Projects like Reality Factory (www.realityfactory.ca) are very useful for developers looking to script a bit, but not dive into the low-level C++ coding, which is what it sounds like you are looking for.

Re:OpelGL == Beating a dead horse

[HeroreV]

What on earth could you possibly be babbling about? Are you saying that OpenGL only "runs" on Windows? Did you happen to miss the "Open" in "OpenGL"? Your comments are some of the most nonsensical I've ever seen that didn't appear to be joking. See the OpenGL entry at Wikipedia.

UT

[petrus4]

I'd suggest either the original Unreal Tournament, or (if you're feeling a bit more adventurous) UT2004.

Given how old the original UT is, that might surprise you a bit...however, it's an extremely capable engine, nearly everything's scriptable, (UnrealScript is a cut down Java) and mapping is infinitely faster and easier than for the Quakes. You've also got an enormous amount of existing code examples available online, in the sense that the source for UnrealScript mods and mutators can be extracted from the .u files.

True, they're not open source. However, there's no other package on the planet quite like UnrealED, and so long as you don't want to make money with your project, (which you've said you haven't) Epic don't really mind what you do with it too much.

Re:OpelGL == Beating a dead horse

[Eideewt]

No, I'm responding to a post recommending DirectX over OpenGL. I disagree with it because DirectX is Windows only, and OpenGL is not.

UT-Runtime.

[Anonymous Coward]

There's something else that should be added to this. Epic makes a runtime available for those who don't want to buy the game. BTW Farcry is proably the easiest game to mod. But a lot of the newer games are moddable, and look good too. e.g. Doom3, F.E.A.R., Earth 2160, even the GTA series (I believe Renderware is taught in schools). And just wait till the later part of this year...Wow! Mod heaven.

More than one person Bazaar

[hackwrench]

Microsoft has many programmers working for them. They are a citadel system. That book with four authors, still a citadel system, which is why one author wouldn't do anything different. Citadel system result in "one true ways" most of the time. Bazaars can be better than that.

Books

[Anonymous Coward]

"I'm trying to find a good open source/free, 3D first/third-person game engines."

I'm assuming that's because of the free part, and not because you want to understand how game engines work.

"I can write basic scripts and make basic programs in various programming languages, but when it comes to making 3D worlds I do not have the skill set."

Basically you want a game package* with a scriptable API.

"Most of the Open Source programs I've found are not for beginners. I've found some pretty good commercial programs, however the game I am making has no chance of ever making a profit. As such I don't really want to invest money on a personal project. Any advice?"

Hence my first comment. Anyway commercial or open, what you're attempting isn't going to be easy. You can try online tutorials at a variable standard of quality. Or you can buy a couple books.

1. 
   2D Artwork and 3D Modeling for Game Artists
   Creating the Art of the Game
   Mastering Unreal Technology : The Art of Level Design
   Digital Texturing & Painting
   Digital Lighting & Rendering
   

I recommend the last two for those who wish to go from so so to wow with their creations.

*I use the word "package" because a game engine is more than just "pretty pictures". It's physics, AI, networking, and then pretty pictures.

Cube

[TheRealDamion]

I thought cube was the defacto standard well-known open source 3d game engine ?
http://www.cubeengine.com/

Oddly my quick scan of this /. thread shows nobody has mentioned it yet. This allows simple in-game 3d world creation, even with people over a network collaboratively. All the source is available and the actual game itself is bonza.

G3D

[magic]

G3D is a commercial-grade 3D Engine available as Open Source (BSD License). It is used in games, tech demos, research papers, military simulators, and university courses. It can support real-time rendering, off-line rendering, back-end game server management of 3D worlds, and use of graphics hardware for general purpose computing. G3D is the basis for several university games and graphics courses, including ones at Ivy leagues Brown and Harvard Extension.

http://g3d-cpp.sf.net/

-m

Re:OpelGL == Beating a dead horse

[Kadin2048]

This was the post he was responding to, it's been (rightly) beaten down to -1. I was confused at first also.

Just stop recomending OpenGL to everyone, OpelGL is dead in the game development world. DirectX is mutch better, it has everything you need. Math/Grafic/sound/input/networking, justing opengl is dumb. There is no other market other then the windows one when you are creating games.

No i say go whit MDX (Managed Direct X). Just watch tutorial number 4 where he creates a engine from sratch that have mesh,sprite support.

http://msdn.microsoft.com/coding4fun/gamedevelopme nt/rocketcmd/default.aspx

I think the parent post to yours was right on, as a response to this drivel (which comes across to me as nothing but MS-centric shilling).

Couldn't resist.

[Kadin2048]

Bah. Computers are for wimps -- what, you aren't manufacturing your own transistors? What sort of a girly-man are you?

Game design is not for beginners-Offset Software.

[Anonymous Coward]

"The reason most game engines are complicated is because 3D game design is not for beginners, mostly due to the broad compromises we make due to technological limitations."

And yet that's what Offset Software has done using the latest technologies.

Game Engine vs. Graphics Engine

[karthikkumar]

A game engine usually consists of many components including the graphics engine. While many people have pointed out Ogre as a game engine, it is to be noted that Ogre does not claim to be a game engine in itself. It only strives to do what it does best: Graphics.

Yake, on the other hand, integrates Ogre and ODE (a physics engine)

Ideally, today's games require that a game engine would need these components:

1. Graphics engine
2. Sound engine
3. AI/Gameplay/Scripting engines
4. Common Client/Server/Game framework
5. Networking
6. Physics (someone saw Novodex/PhysX coming? )
7. Content Creation / Editing / Deployment Tools

Optionally:
8. Dedicated server (web apps) for multiplayer games

So, if you've put all of them together .. you may call that a game engine. :)

Re:OpelGL == Beating a dead horse

[int19h]

DirectX is Windows only, except through Wine.

Re:OpelGL == Beating a dead horse

[Eideewt]

You've got it.

Pick 1

[Anonymous Coward]

Pussy (closed and costly)

or

GPL Pussy (open sores, and in Soviet America it smells you back).

I expect 98c change from this dollar

[The_Real_GooberMan]

As other posters have noted, if you don't have the skill set then you shouldn't be worrying about engines quite yet. How familiar are you with vector and matrix mathematics? If you ever plan on doing ANYTHING in 3D, learn that. Trying to do anything without knowing the basics is just plain ludicrous. Once you've gotten the hang of those, you can start coding. The mathematics are usually the biggest block to get over when programming in 3D. After learning that stuff, OpenGL or Direct3D will seem alot less daunting. Alternately, since there's alot more to 3D game programming than just learning a graphics API, you could then try making a mod or playing with one of the many engines listed in previous posts. My own personal opinion though: Engines are wrong. They're usually general purpose solutions when I want a specific solution. Engines are evaulated by companies/individuals based on features that they want. They'll usually go with the engine that has a balance between features and ease of use. One could argue that learning an engine and adding the features you want would be just as time consuming as writing your own engine from scratch (it's an argument that I ascribe to). As a learning environment, I really can't recommend anything better than reading tutorials; getting comfortable with the concepts; and then doing everything yourself. That's the approach I've taken, and I've found it to be a rather useful approach (it's the same with programming languages - did you learn the science behind it or did you only learn the syntax?).

Re:I expect 98c change from this dollar

[Anonymous Coward]

TL:DR

Blitz3D

[Anonymous Coward]

Ok, so I'm breaking two of your requests, it's not open source, and it costs $100US. But that's not much money, and maybe you really don't need open source for the graphics subsystemn? It's easy, powerful and and I think it's brilliant from the demo version I have used.

Java in 10 weeks

[Paolone]

What was amazing was that after 10 weeks, no body knew Java in a class that was dedicated solely to teaching it

Either they didn't care about learning or they are a bunch of morons.

Horrible Advice

[Anonymous Coward]

To me, this is like telling someone, "So, you want to learn to write C? Ok, first, you need to figure out how compilers work..."

Rediculous.
Does understanding the build/link make me a better programmer? Absolutely. And when I am fighting for others for a paying position, this would be a serious factor. However, if I am making a quick VB form to help my kids learn addition, they would be in algebra before I got it done.

But to suggest to someone who wants to make a game that they have to first build a 3D engine in order to properly appreciate the effort is balder dash.

First of all, it is going to be a LONG time before he gets anything even close to a game. Why do we always start with "Hello world!"? Because that delivers that "Oh yah! Look at that!! I just wrote that on the screen! Look out you MIT snobs, I am right behind yah!!" For someone who isn't really drawn to programming (I am making the assumption based on what he gave us in his post), why in the world would he want to submerge himself in some of the most abstract and complicated programming out there. (for me it is math, can't tell you how many books I have set down thinking, "Dude, I want a to make a whizzing space ship, not learn advanced calculus..." I have picked up many of the concepts as I went along and they made my product MUCH better, but in those initial stages, there was nothing that turned me off more than having 5 chapters of academic noise to explain what I could do without effort with numerous choices of libraries. Again, we are not talking about becoming a "professional" here, we are talking about the most efficient and rewarding way to invest your hobby-time.)

Second, 3D engine programming has nothing, and I mean litterally nothing, to do with game programming. For a geek, designing a 3D engine is tons of fun. For a guy who just wants in his spare time to "see his vision", I couldn't think of a greater waste of time.

Again, as you get more advanced and want to do more, you really need to eventually wrestle with this stuff. However, to just make a game, you would be really wasting your time, OHO.

I have used Torque (garagegames) and find it a perfectly adequate engine.
I have also used TrueVision, but not enough to form an opinion.
There is another I used a lot that I cannot recall, however, I have heard good
things about many of the products others have suggested.

Blitz Basic might be a good option

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.blitzbasic.co.nz/

serious sam

[Some_Llama]

Try licensing the Serious Sam engine, I believe it is 100 for the first engine and 1000 for the second. For 100 bucks you get amazing graphics and no boundaries on maps... as well as thoroughly documented engine and SDK... If you gross enough you could license the second ;)

100 bucks... come on! :)

Try the Build engine ...

[ScrewMaster]

there's a great Windows port of Duke Nukem available, and it includes all the tools you need to create your own levels. It would be a great start. You can get it here