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Evolution of the Netflix Envelope
An anonymous reader wrote to mention an article over on CNN Money. They go into some detail on what seven years of tinkering has done for the simple red Netflix envelope. From the article: "Years of experimentation went into creating the perfect DVD envelope. In 1999, Netflix started out with a heavy cardboard mailer. With only 100,000 subscribers, costs weren't a concern yet. Then the company experimented with plastic envelopes, which proved not to be recyclable, and padding, which added too much to postage costs. Both top-loading and side-loading envelopes made an appearance."
They re use those things and don't forget what most people rent! I wouldn't seal them with a lick.
Netflix envelope! Too bad everything past the first slide is a 404. Now whatever shall I do?
Imagine shipping 1 billion DVDs for one cent cheaper.
Netflix somehow always knows when I've sent a movie back before it actually gets there. I always assumed the barcode was somehow related to that.
As a long-time netflix user I think the paper envelope they have now is damn near perfect. It's dirt cheap, but keeps the DVD safe. It's recycleable too. It takes 5 seconds to put the DVD in securely and be ready to mail it.
Check out my women's designer clothing store.
That said, I've always wondered why Netflix didn't use more square envelopes. Some of the earlier designs looked that way. I wonder if it has to do with sorting or some such.
Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
Would I save them any time by ensuring it is visible? Can anyone from Netflix corp answer this?
Saying Java is nice because it works on all OS's is like saying that anal sex is nice because it works on all genders.
Um, p2p?
I've seen a lot of things, but I've never been a witness.
Only a pointless flame war can guide me through this conundrum. That's why I'm turning to you, O Wise Slashdotters.
For those of you who think that there hasn't been much technological progress since, say, 1980 (except perhaps computers which are special*), this is how it happens. Take this sort of incremental improvement by one company in one very small facet of our lives, and multiply it across any number of thousands of products, carefully trimmed and optimized and made more efficient. You only notice the things that the process isn't very good at; UI, for instance.
(*: And computers only seem special for two reasons: One, most fields don't get to experience exponential growth for decades at a time, and two, you know more about them. There's a lot going on under the hood of any number of other products, too. Familiarity breeds contempt; so does ignorance.)
I love the innovation but personally my postman always seemed to find that ONE weakness in em. I was at an apartment complex with those little metal boxes. I swear the postman would fold them every time and I'd still get a envelope of broken pieces. Happened more times than I'd like to recall.
It's a pain when you get your movie and you have to be careful to avoid damanging the return envelope while you open it.
Plus, I can't send it back with a different movie because we only get one at a time.
Silence is golden... and duct tape is silver.
I noticed they removed the instructions telling people the orientation that the DVD should be returned.
:)
Probably made their lives a lot easier, but I actually didn't notice those instructions until, oh, 6 months into my membership.
Sorry 'bout that.
...letter origami!
Did Netflix try origami?
but the detail they provided is practically useless... like everything else on this bloody planet.
It seems to me that there are a few flaws yet - for example I have torn off the adhesive strip more than once along the wrong set of perforations. I am not sure why the outer flap has to be the full length of the envelope. Sometimes the little adhesive tab tears the envelope when I open the thing.
They tried something similar with the transition from 6 - 7:
"2001
Foam padding is dropped because the benefits don't justify the cost. The company gives top-loading another try."
I guess it's just the idea that incremental progress is quite fascinating when you look at it all at once.
That said, I also think it would be cool to see something on the evolution of slashdot interfaces,
I cried real tears when Li Mu Bai died.
The movie is sent to me in a 6 inch x 9 inch envelope that contains:
This article makes it sound like you have to be an engineer to send a letter.
That's $10 million. Pffft.
But how much is that per share?
I had to "temporarily allow" 3 different "sites" on scriptblocker to see the whole show...
kratei wrote:
"1) The Mailers started white then turned red (Embarrassment about obscene profits?)"
And they were quite sturdy, some type of thin cardboard. I actually thought they were a better, more protective mailer, but not as cost-effective for Netflix, probably.
After the white mailers were discontinued, I was getting yellow paper Netflix envelopes, a transitional format before the current red envelopes started being used...
Friends help you move... Real friends help you move bodies...
No. This would mean they would ship one DVD every 3 days to each customer.
Sorry, but your calculations are a little off. It says 1.4Mil per day for 4.2Mil subscribers.
You are correct in that it works out to "3", but your units are wrong.
It is 1 movie per subscriber every 3 days which is in keeping with my personal use.
12.6Mil per day would be 3 movies per subscriber.
I'll go out on a limb and guess that word problems are not your forte.
How does a 7-person democracy cut a pie? Into 4 pieces.
(1.4 million DVDs)/(1 day) * (4.2 million people) = 0.33 DVDs per person per day or 1 DVD per three people per day, not 3 DVDs per person per day.
Pelé!
Would that be +1 or a -1 dumbass mod?
Can you get their vids to work in Mozilla?
I've noticed that the return address on the newer netflix envelopes now reads "Nearest Netflix Shipping Facility" and then has a PO box located in my very small rural town. It makes you wonder if they dont scan the barcodes in different locations and then once that nearby local has marked it as received your next disc is sent. There has to be something to the way they get movies to me so quickly when I live so far from a major city.
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.
- Winston Churchill
My guess is that they are saying that at on any given day, 1.4 million DVDs are "in-transit".
If you ship 10 DVDs on one day, and it takes 3 days to get to the destination, you would still have 10 DVDs in-transit per day.
It sounds funny, knowing what's "in-transit" is an important inventory metric.
Plus, they might be counting the return trips as well.
It's impossible to know, however, without having the underlying data.
From the article. The result of more than five years of experimentation, this mailer transports approximately 1.4 million DVDs a day to Netflix's 4.2 million subscribers. This isn't even theoretically possible. This would require them to ship 3 DVDs per person per day.
.33 dvds per subscriber, per day, or about 10 dvds a month... which really doesn't seem that unreasonable.
By my math, 1.4 million dvds a week to 4.2 million subscribers =
Prior to April 1: Primarily slashdot green
April 1: Ponies!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111
April 2 and beyond: Classics die hard.
How are sites slashdotted when nobody reads TFAs?
That's a fascinating look at innovation. But they still annoy me in several ways in that it's too easy to damage the return mailer while opening it. First, the perforations on the thin flap are too sturdy. Second, the circular sticker is a pain; unless I am careful I wind up ripping the thin layer with my address on it. If the circular sticker were thinner or perforated or had notches in it to act as stress risers then it would easily rip the way it should. Lastly there is, the flap with the adhesive strip on it to seal it. The line of perforations is often stronger than the fold on the other side of the adhesive strip. Several times I have had to tape a Netflix mailer closed because I accidently ripped off the adhesive strip. Simply cutting notches in the ends of the perforation would get it started ripping.
The fact that there is an "OPEN ALONG EDGE" notice says to me they aren't done innovating. I should be able to open it naïvely the first and get at my disk without worrying about damaging the return envelope.
We're sending DVDs.
In case you weren't aware, DVDs have several properties unlike letters:
1) Rigid
2) Reflective
3) Smooth
If your package alters any of those three properties then your DVD has become a coaster.
Additionally your package has other constraints outside of mailing DVDs:
1) Easy to use
2) Cheap
3) Useful
Cheap means making them lighter and more durable. Useful means making them more productive in the warehouse and as advertising. Easy to use means more users.
GPL Deconstructed
In 1999, Netflix started out with a heavy cardboard mailer. With only 100,000 subscribers, costs weren't a concern yet.
I dunno, you'd think a business with a small number of customers would be cost-conscious. But then 100,000 isn't all that small I suppose.
"5) Now this may be irrelevant soon if video-on-demand takes off."
I'm having a difficult time imagining that video on demand will 'take off' and wipe out Netflix. I suppose it's possible, but we'd need a service that's available everywhere, has a humungoidginormous library, and is roughly the same price as Netflix. Maybe I'm narrow minded, but I don't connect this level of VoD service with the word 'soon'.
"I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)
I tried Ubuntu's ShipIt service for a few free CDs. They came, but the cardboard holders had scratched the surface enough that the disks were no longer reliable. Of course I found this out 3/4 of the way thru an install in front of a bunch of people I was trying to impress with Linux.
Intellectual Property is a monopolistic, selfish, and defective concept. It is "tyranny over the mind of man"
Imagine being able to go online and request any movie you want, and be watching it within the hour. (OK, other than using BitTorrent!). You just go down to the local Redbox kiosk and pick it up within the hour.
This is on the way, and you can't beat the current prices ($1/day) for new releases. And, there is a website with Redbox codes where you can get A LOT of free rentals, too.
So, if you are in one of 10 major metros you can get this today.
So, forget the red envelope, and get ready for the Redbox.
I fail to see the impact of this on an essentially square envelope
If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people
If they don't properly affix the sticker that seals the flap, the USPS sorting machines can mangle them pretty good.
In fact, just today I received only the address flap in the mail. It must've been ripped off from the envelope (who knows what happened to the dvd), and those persistant bastards at the post office delivered just a red flap.
I've also received a disk that had the flap partially torn off. It took two days longer than normal, and the USPS had placed it in a "Sorry we damaged your mail" envelope.
So not quite the perfect solution, but still pretty good.
I didn't try - but if it was flash, I've totally ripped flash out of mozilla. I pretty much expect that I won't see video.
Crap nonstandard HTML that didin't validate to crap nonstandard HTML that now they block the W3C validator from accessing the site directly.
End discussion
Not since Marie-Antoinette played milkmaid has looking simple and honest been so fake and complicated.
As a long-time netflix user I think the paper envelope they have now is damn near perfect. It's dirt cheap, but keeps the DVD safe. It's recycleable too. It takes 5 seconds to put the DVD in securely and be ready to mail it.
I don't think their so perfect. I work for the post office and have to handle the damn things. I'm not the guy that stuffs your mailbox, I run the sorting machines. (about 95% of your letters are sorted by machine). Problem is, the DVDs jam the machine because they don't flex (enough). They need to be run on a special machine used to sort magazines. I regularly see their ripped envelopes and occasionally broken DVDs from the letter sorters, where they are mixed in with normal letters and difficult to see and remove. The envelope is too flimsy, and the adhesive sticker to "seal" it is a bit of a problem. It sometimes sticks to the adjacent mailpiece. You are seeing the result of "engineering" something to just barely meet requirements, to save a penny or two.
The Blockbuster mailer is great from my point of view. Envelope is sturdy, and fits and protects it's contents well. The NetFlix mailer has the floppy empty "tail" because it is rectangular rather than square. Difficult to handle to load into the machines. This deficiency requires more time to handle the NetFlix, so it costs more to process. But that's OK, 'cause you're paying for it by subsidizing it with your first class postage on other mail. You do realize you subsidize the discounted postage bulk mail pays with your full rate first class postage, right?
I dunno. Sounds more like intelligent design to me.
i think contempt breeds familiarity, and ignorance.
Don't you have better things to do than comment on if people have better things to do than read why Netflix envelopes aren't square?
Not a Twitter sockpuppet... but I wish I was.
Now, if this 1.4 million mailers daily idea is to be believed, even $0.0001 saved in printing/scanning/postage comes out to saving over $51,000 annually per hundreth of a cent per mailer. If Netflix decides to spend the extra cent to add padding or a second envelope, that's a loss of over five million dollars to them each year.
In short, your FlixClone can get away with 'better' packaging because it's not having to deal with these ridiculously marginal values. Once and if their subscribers grow to as much as Netflix's current base, they'll either notice how much it's costing them or else cripple themselves financially.
Now, if we make a change to the accounting software to redirect a fraction of that penny left over from rounding operation to a different account we could bring down the evil of Netflicks! Who's with me?
Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
So true. I fucking hate sites like that. Whatever happen to plain old HTML?
The next step in the evolution is the extinction of the Netflix Envelope ...
Once Video-On-Demand (VoD) becomes more common and affordable, services that snail mail DVDs will seem quaint...
Ron
Exactly. We have VoD service here (Time Warner Cable in New York City). It costs $4 to get a movie for 24 hours, and there are only maybe a hundred choices at any given time. They seem to skew toward bad movies. Worse still, the quality is terrible. The signal is hugely over-compressed, and widescreen movies are letterboxed, not any kind of native widescreen, so by the time you're done, you've got maybe 200-something pixels of vertical resolution. So, it's like VHS, with the addition of MPEG-2 compression artifacts.
No thanks.
With Netflix, even with throttling and broken discs and all the rest of that nonsense, I still manage to get movies for less than $1.50 each. The selection is huge, and I'm getting a real DVD, with decent quality and all the extras that come on the disc.
I expect the gap to widen even more in the next couple of years; Netflix has a system that will scale to HD content much better than what the cable companies can provide. They don't need to dig up streets, or replace millions of set-top boxes, or build huge data centers. They just need to start sticking HD-DVD and BluRay discs in envelopes, which doesn't cost any more than sticking regular DVDs in envelopes.
I'm sure everyone on Slashdot has heard the ancient adage "Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway". Well, never underestimate the bandwidth of millions of red envelopes full of optical discs. Seriously.
This space unintentionally left unblank.
Weight (within reason) shouldn't be an issue. You can send letters up to 1 ounce, for base USPS postage. Since a DVD only weighs half that, and they only send one at a time, they could have very heavy envelopes before it would cost them any extra money. I think it would be a good idea for them to send 2 at a time (and in an envelope 2/3rds as large) which would make this more of an issue, but that's another story.
DVDs will occasionally break in the mail, no matter what. An envelope would have to be incredibly strong to even slightly reduce the incidents of damage. So, it's the DVD's own strength and flexibility that keeps them from breaking, which has NOTHING to do with the mailer. The envelope is just scratch-protection...
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
Don't forget OMG! PONIES!
Once Video-On-Demand (VoD) becomes more common and affordable, services that snail mail DVDs will seem quaint...
Netflix agrees which is why they are partnering with TiVO to do VOD.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Must be a slow news day...
the summary already says it all. here's the direct link to the gallery: http://money.cnn.com/popups/2006/biz2/netflix/fram eset.exclude.html
HD Trailers
Obviously, not if you have an MBA.
The referenced article is very interesting and I often wonder about the process that goes into such things or what seems to be a lack of process. One thing that has me wondering is the rack managment of some servers. You have companies like HP that in the past has made some great contributions to technology with a wide variety of electronics, test equipment, and computing with both hardware and software. All that being said, HP has some of the strangest contraptions for server wire management. A few years ago, they had this setup with these retractable cables that could probably sever your fingers if they let loose (like those retractable keychains) connected to what looked like a small cargo net with about 6 sets of velco straps, the contraption even had numbers so you knew where to attach what as you were fighting with the velco glob. You put your wires in that thing if you could. They eventually moved over to the swinging metal rack and after several years of revisions, they finally have something reasonable. For a company that was one of the most respected engineering companies in the world, you'd think they could make better progress with wire management and rack slider setups then what they have offered up to this point.
Bad boys rape our young girls but Violet gives willingly.
YES! Yes, we realize that. We do. We really do. It's okay. We all totally realize it. And we're grateful. Did we say we're grateful? We are. Okay. Now. Just put down the rifle...
You do realize you subsidize the discounted postage bulk mail pays with your full rate first class postage, right?
i on
Funny, I was always told the exact opposite. Namely, that the discounts given to presorted bulk mail were actually less than the labor saved by the Post Office as a result of the presorting, thus most "junk mail" and stuff shipped at the bulk rate is more profitable, on a piece-by-piece basis, than individual First Class letters. So that really it's all those catalogs and crap that are subsidizing the Post Office's ability to deliver your letter to Grandma for 39 cents.
If what you're saying is true, and it's the other way around, then what I've basically been told my entire life about the Post Office is wrong.
I just ran some quick Google searches and I'm not the only person under this impression:
"Most people are unaware that bulk mailing is highly profitable for the U.S. Postal Service and it subsidizes first class mail." http://www.lawmall.com/abuse/abe-mail.html
"Bulk mail thereby subsidizes low cost stamps for letter, magazine, and book mailing." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_mail#Legislat
&c., etc.
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
Kirby
That explains why so many of my DVDs are broken.
If you ask me the current design is excellent. The real achilles heal in the whole operation is on the fold/seal. That thing tears off about 1/3rd of the time and I have to just tape the dumb thing shut. They used to be made much heartier, and I would never have a torn envelope. Maybe they could just reinforce that one fold somehow.
That sounds right, but I think bulk mail is still bad for us. I would rather spend a dollar apiece on the 2 or 3 letters I send out each year than spend time almost every day wading through junk mail.
Foam protects from crushing, which is not a problem. DVDs need protection from bending.
If cost were not a concern, sheets of carbon fiber or steel would work great. Perhaps use an aluminum rectangle with a circle cut out of the middle.
Since cost is a concern, a better idea would be a multi-disk discount. A pair of disks is less likely to get bent. Sure, you lose both on rare occasions, but shipping pairs might still be a win.
- It is a square letter
- ...
- The length divided by height is less than 1.3 or more than 2.5 (calculate this below)
Considering that, for a square, length/height = 1 < 1.3, why did they put the first condition in? It's already included into the more general last condition.Most work in a modern home is cleaning and next to that is cooking. Vacuum cleaners are a good replacement for brooms, but you still need to clean up furniture and glasses yourself, for e.g. Dish washers are not perfect either.
> Only a pointless flame war can guide me through this conundrum.
:-)
Oh for crying out loud -- why is parent moderated as "flamebait"?
The post is clearly tongue-in-cheek, and intended to be funny. "Flamebait refers to comments whose sole purpose is to insult and enrage." (emphasis added) At worst, parent is offtopic.
Now, of course, this comment is clearly offtopic.
Until they find a way to keep my kids from grabbing them out of the mail and losing 'em.
You're supposed to be able to send the DVD back in the same envelope as another one, but you have to report the DVD as "lost".
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
No, if you read it carefully it means that each subscriber receives 1.4 million DVDs each day. I can assure you that they've never sent me over a million at once though so these numbers might be a little off. In any case, 4,200,000 * 1,200,000 = 5,040,000,000,000 DVDs a day, so as you can see your math is flawed.
Lasers Controlled Games!
The rule in the food business was to mark up your biggest volume item the most -- for us (University concessions) that was coffee. That would suggest the USPS marks up bulk mail (or business mail) the most.
I come here for the love
In my experience there were almost never any extras on Netflix DVDs (and this has tended to be true also at video stores). If the video store rents you a disc with extras, you may keep it longer. Since few stores reward early return, there is profit in the consumer returning DVDs early. Netflix, on the other hand, saves by buying cheaper DVDs instead of Special Editions, etc. This was one of two reasons I stopped Netflix. The other was their non-delivery on the "unlimited rentals" promise.
I come here for the love
You are seeing the result of "engineering" something to just barely meet requirements, to save a penny or two.
$0.01 (or $0.02) x about a bajillion mailings = about $10 or $20 majillion in savings for Netflix.
See, they have lots of customers, with many mailings per customer, so a tiny per-envelope savings means a lot to them.
I got more rhymes than Jamaica got Mangoes.
I accept this, because I hate video stores, and because paying only $1.40 (my average cost per DVD) allows me to see a lot more DVDs than I could afford otherwise. But it's hardly "perfect".
How about Gamefly mailers? I've yet to see one of those get to me with damage, but I'm curious from the perspective of someone from the inside.
I live as a slob with someone else and spend well over 8 hours a week cleaning a smallish house.
Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
I wonder how big the netflix inventory is, not only do they have to have every movie out there, but they have to have multiple copies of it too.. thats a lot of DVD. Imagine financeing that? Did they buy them wholesale?
The moderator was right. I was off topic, but if you are spending more than 8 ours a week cleaning a smallish house, and it is not emaculate, you are doing something seriously wrong.
I understand how that can happen. When I met my wife, she would spend all day doing 3 loads of laundry. She would spend so much time organizing the laundry that she would never get it washed. Once I conviced her to just go ahead and put the clothes in the washer, a full days work turned into 15 minutes. If you miss a white sock because you didn't spend hours sorting, you can just throw it in next time.
The fact that she created work where none was necessary did not make a few loads of laundry a 'real job'. If you are spending as much time as you say, and you live as a slob, you are definitly creating work where it is not necessary.
So you return three movies at once? That means either you wait until you've watched all three movies before you return any of them — in which case you're cheating yourself, because Netflix could be replacing the first movie while you're watching the other two. Or else you watch all three movies in one sitting and return them all in the next mail — in which case you need to get a life!
Now that problem is up to Netflix & TiVO, TiVO's are not Microsoft creations so there is no reason to think they would go with Windows Media.
That said, probably there will be some DRM - it will be interesting to see what form that takes.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
No, I'm pretty sure it means that each customer gets 1.4 million disks every day!
Good for us??? Please... do not try to speak for me...
I would GLADLY pay $1.00 for every first class letter I had to send if the USPS would just stop delivering all that bulk mail crap to me.
I never read it. The first thing I do is go through the mail in one pass...
Notice that both my roommate and I have an equal agreement... If it doesn't look like a bank statement or other official source that we deal with regularly then it gets thrown away. Period.
It's just a total waste to send this crap to me and personally I think it should be illegal. I think it destroys the environment. I think it unnecessarily overburdens the USPS carriers. I know it annoys it me. I believe it invades my privacy by harassing me directly. I think most of the crap is merely scams that don't offer any decent value to the recipient and usually is for products that are misrepresented. In short it's the worst kind of advertising.
It simply is NOT "good for us."
I will never live for sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.
NetFlix doesn't do porn. I created a website using the domain name NotNetFlix.com to capitalize on this fact. NetFlix did not appreciate this and $2,500 in attorney fees later I finally relented and had to turn the domain over to them. I sure miss that name as my new one generates only half the traffic: RentXReview.com.
Good sir, I just now read your reply in the "natural/unnatural monopoly" discussion back on March 9th. I just want to say I appreciate your input and do wish that I had seen it sooner, before that discussion was archived.
Unfortunately, there are no inter-user messages, I hope this doesn't interrupt the present discussion.
Peace, may your aim never waver,
Bob-
The Ludwig von Mises Institute. The reasoning individuals economics
Just be careful... I had one the other day that would have normally gone in "straight to trash" pile, but I was bored so I opened. There was a $666 check in side (seriously). I wasn't expecting it, so I would never have know it was gone.