RIM Rejects More Patent Infringement Allegations

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RIM Rejects More Patent Infringement Allegations

Posted by ryuzaki0 on Monday May 1, 2006 @11:38AM from the copycat dept.

SilentOne writes "Waterloo based Research In Motion is facing new allegations of patent violation. Visto Corp. of Redwood Shores, Calif., said Monday that it had won an infringement case against Seven Networks, also of California, and is now targeting RIM for infringing four patents, including three involved in the Seven action. "Our case against RIM is based on similar technology, law and patents as the case we have just won," Visto said in a statement. "

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More lawsuits... by Beuno · 2006-05-01 11:41 · Score: 5, Insightful

Anyone else have the feeling the focus is more and more on legal battles instead of tech innovation?
1. Re:More lawsuits... by Anonymous Coward · 2006-05-01 12:11 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  This seems to have been the trend for a while. It's less and less about competition, more and more about meta-competition.
  
  Rather than produce the best product at the lowest cost, you buy the legislation to give you a competitive advantage. Rather than create something new, you file some patents and claim other people's work as your own.
  
  It's difficult to find a solution; the interwoven laws and old-buddy networks are so deeply entrenched that it'll take some major overhaul to set things straight. I really hope that the pseudocapitalists who strap on our shackles notice the chains hanging from their own ankles, as well.
WTF?! by PygmySurfer · 2006-05-01 11:42 · Score: 5, Insightful

"Under the law, which protects consumers from products that contain infringing technology, RIM should not be able to sell the BlackBerry system."

Since when do patents do ANYTHING to protect consumers from anything?
1. Re:WTF?! by Basehart · 2006-05-01 11:50 · Score: 2, Funny
  
  I'm betting there are a lot of kids out there who will stay as far away from inventing something as they can (at least in the USA anyway!)
2. Re:WTF?! by uniqueUser · 2006-05-01 12:10 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  Our copy-right and patent laws were orginaly set up to protect the small people. But it has backfired. I think that it might be time to completely re-think how the current implementation should be. Big Money has just gotten too big.
  
  --
  GENERATION 25: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social exper
3. Re:WTF?! by typical · 2006-05-01 13:57 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  Our copy-right and patent laws were orginaly set up to protect the small people.
  
  I don't know about that. They were set up with the intent of funding content creation. Copyright laws may still do that -- abused and stretched as they may be -- but software patents are actively harming the ability of engineers to function in the United States.
  
  (And engineers who want to make a product that can be sold in the United States, which is damn near everyone.)
  
  --
  Any program relying on (nontrivial) preemptive multithreading will be buggy.
This is what many knew would happen by DarkFencer · 2006-05-01 11:42 · Score: 4, Insightful

This is why RIM fought so hard against NTP. They could have settled early on for far less then the recent settlement + legal fees. They didn't want to give in early (or at all if possible) so they didn't end up as a target for a dozen more places like NTP.
1. Re:This is what many knew would happen by FuryG3 · 2006-05-01 12:00 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  I disagree, I think that if they had a do-over they would have settled that case much earlier on. 612 million USD is a lot of cash to spend on discouraging other people from filing similar law suits.
  
  In any case, it certainly didn't work. The moral of the story (for companies like Visto) is not "it costs a lot of money to sue RIM" it's "suing RIM gets you $612 million."
Well, I knowing first hand.. by LeddRokkenstud · 2006-05-01 11:46 · Score: 5, Interesting

As an employee of RIM, knowing about this first hand is kind of scary. I work as the manager of material processing, and I'm actually afraid of the outcome. The whole company is frustrated/fearful of this whole situation, and we just want to keep our jobs. I don't think the suits will stop.
1. Re:Well, I knowing first hand.. by ZachPruckowski · 2006-05-01 11:50 · Score: 5, Funny
  
  The whole company is frustrated/fearful of this whole situation, and we just want to keep our jobs
  
  Well, I sure hope you all don't lose your RIM jobs.
2. Re:Well, I knowing first hand.. by ShieldW0lf · 2006-05-01 11:56 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  Cut your losses. Take the blackberry service out of the US. Instantly. Leave every single blackberry owner, including the entire government, hanging out to dry. Use RIM patents to prevent anyone else from servicing them, ensure that where this is concerned, they are well, truly and permanently fucked as a consequence of their screwed up society. Refuse to penny up a dime. That's what should have been done in the first place. The US is not a suitable place to do business. On the contrary, to do business with the US is to fund the most aggressive nation in the world and contribute to global unrest. Just don't do it.
  
  --
  -1 Uncomfortable Truth
3. Re:Well, I knowing first hand.. by ZachPruckowski · 2006-05-01 12:10 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  Hey, it's a Slashdot cliché. I'm surprised I was first. It's a bit of a risk everytime someone uses a still-funny cliché. You always struggle with "But is it still funny?". I mean, at any time, that cliché could fall, and join the ranks of formerly funny clichés about Linux-running hot grits and old Korean beowulf clusters.
4. Re:Well, I knowing first hand.. by thrillseeker · 2006-05-01 13:02 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  Cut your losses. Take the blackberry service out of the US.
  Thank God you're not the guy in charge of insuring shareholder value for RIM - you know - the people that own the company - yeah, they bought it, with their own evil money. Wanna see how far an $80 stock price can fall when you remove the source of the majority of its revenue? Wanna see if it makes any difference to a Canadian company if a US court rules against 'em? Think the Canucks are gonna send the mounties to the border, or enforce the US ruling? Really hard to figure out why you'll never run a major corporation.
5. Re:Well, I knowing first hand.. by Anonymous Coward · 2006-05-01 13:14 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  You mean those dictators that the U.S. set up and armed?
6. Re:Well, I knowing first hand.. by iplayfast · 2006-05-01 16:15 · Score: 3, Interesting
  EUers say that the US really sucks, are bullies, etc., but without the United States, there would be no world economy. I don't think so...
  
  It would just be a smaller world economy. US debt is well on the way to making this situation anyway. Ever wonder why the Canadian economy gaining against the US? The US has a larger growing season, Canada has a population of California, but Canada is gaining.
  
  Look to
  Bad policies in regard to the public ability to do what it wants. For example, you buy software, but are limited to what you can do with it, and this is accepted because it's called a license. If you were to license a pen, would you only be able to use it on one sheet of paper?
  Bad policies in regard to patents, software patents in particular.
  Bad policies in regard to copyright. (Copyright lasts for how many years?!?!)
  Bad policies in regard to foreign policy. (The war was a stupid waste of tax payers money, now the whole economy is paying for it).
  Bad policies in regard to how politions can be swayed by corperate desires.
  
  The Chinese are gaining ground as well, not to mention the Japaneese and European countries. The US is in sad sad shape compared to what it should be, and you've only your government to blame.
7. Re:Well, I knowing first hand.. by Anonymous Coward · 2006-05-01 18:56 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  The American consumer overpays to bring products to market, and the rest of the world gets it at a cheaper price. [...] who else would may $20 for a music CD with spyware and put up with **IAA? Only the American consumer.
  
  No.
  
  While I am not familiar with the price differences taken over the entire spectrum of products (and too lazy to investigate), you are wrong, at least about specific products, and my guess would be that you are wrong in general, as well--at least when comparing US prices to prices where I live.
  
  Your specific example of a music CD, I did look up--you typically see new CDs for 24.90 EUR here, or about 31.31 USD.
  
  Another thing, which I believe is more expensive here, is gasoline. At this very moment, it's listed at 1.373 EUR per liter (dm^3) at the gas station next door, or (evidently) 5.20 USD per US gallon.
8. Re:Well, I knowing first hand.. by ShieldW0lf · 2006-05-02 05:49 · Score: 2
  
  Recent BSE incidents were the best thing to happen to the Canadian economy in a long time. Prior to those incidents, we were just shipping off our cattle to the US to be slaughtered and marked up. We didn't have the plants to slaughter and pack the meat.
  
  Since the US closed the border, now we do. Now we have the jobs, now we have the markup, now we can sell frozen steak to the EU and make all the profit.
  
  The US are not our friends. They are nothing but a weight around our neck, and when incidents like this arise, it becomes obvious even to the most conservative that selling off all our natural resources to the US is NOT in our best interest.
  
  The US needs us. We do not need the US. And after every painful transition period where we do not have the US market available for our resources, we come out better off for it.
  
  Personally, I'd like to see economic sanctions against the US. But when all the old fuckers with the money have all their retirements invested in US companies, it's a hard sell even when people do understand.
  
  --
  -1 Uncomfortable Truth
terrorists! by Feyr · 2006-05-01 11:51 · Score: 5, Insightful

that's why there shall be no negotiation with terrorists! as soon as you cave in to their demands they'll just make more of them!
1. Re:terrorists! by ScrewMaster · 2006-05-01 12:02 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  Really, though, in this case the comparison to terrorism is weak. I'd say it's more like dealing with a school of really hungry piranha. Or maybe a programmed death machine ... to quote Reese when he was describing a Terminator to Sarah Connor:
  
  Listen. Understand. That Terminator is out there. It can't be reasoned with, it can't be bargained with ... it doesn't feel pity or remorse or fear ... and it absolutely will not stop. Ever. Until you are dead.
  
  That's kinda how I look at these patent-wielding law firms. As long as you have the money to pay prote^H^H^H^H^Hlicense fees they absolutely will not stop. Ever.
  
  --
  The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
This is the danger of paying an extortionist... by Ritz_Just_Ritz · 2006-05-01 12:00 · Score: 2, Insightful

it brings all the others out of the wordwork and encourages more extortion. Granted, RIM is no angel, but this is just getting silly.
1. Re:This is the danger of paying an extortionist... by AgNO3 · 2006-05-01 13:36 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  You did see that Visto does sell a product right? They DO SELL a product and it is in common use.
  
  http://www.visto.com/partners/wireless.html
  
  So uh maybe RIM is just getting its just rewards for all the sueing it did.
  
  --
  OMG Ponies!!! with Glitter!!!! I miss Pink :-(
Those who can, do. by Opportunist · 2006-05-01 12:01 · Score: 4, Insightful

Those who can't, sue.

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We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Those who can, do. Those who can't... by FFFish · 2006-05-01 12:09 · Score: 4, Insightful

...sue the asses off those who do.

What a wonderful world we'll live in when it becomes so financially risky to try anything new, out of fear of some obscure patent-camping leech stealing the investment and work it took to make that new thing.

We need patent reform: use your patent, or lose your patent.

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Don't like it? Respond with words, not karma.
We need a linux based RIM alternative SOON!!! by crazyjeremy · 2006-05-01 12:36 · Score: 3, Insightful

Lawsuits like this will happen whenever a company rakes in hundreds of millions of dollars where others have tried and failed. These lawsuites have permanently damaged Corporate America's trust in RIM (or any single point of failure for Corporate Mobile Communication).
HOWEVER! This has actually produced a fertile field for alternative devices. With WindowsMobile getting more secure and more devices being wireless / wifi capable, the blackberry is no longer the only choice for corporate america (nor should it be). Microsoft is trying to play catchup by pushing Windows Mobile as real alternative to Blackberry. There is no comparison. Microsoft simply doesn't offer an end to end service like RIM. BUT if we got a VERY stable and VERY secure linux alternative (handheld and server?) it could save companies hundreds of thousands. But the service must be able to sync with Exchange / Domino and other corporate mail clients.
Coming from a company with over half a million dollar budget for mobile devices and working closely with management, I saw many in Senior management that are very AFRAID to stay with RIM. They are looking for other alternatives just in case something ELSE happens to RIM and there IS no way out the next time. They are just now looking to not "put all their eggs (for mobile email) in one basket".
Bottom line? Windows is now in the market with crappy devices (any 240 x 240 screen, Palm 700). Palm is in the market with a good device (treo 650 with 320 x 320 screen). But there is room to grow in this market.
As soon as a developer gets one of these wifi/cell-enabled devices to run a solid linux distro and get some good encryption on it, mark my words, SOME in corporate America will eat it up, especially with the cost savings. RIM proved this in a way. Blackberries are wonderful email devices. They faltered (till recently) as phone devices. They are NOT PDAs. Corporate America doesn't necessarily need all their employees to have PDA's, but many if not most need email and a viewable calendar 24/7.
Botom line: RIM made lots of money from an email device and now that corporate America is afraid of RIM someone else can cash in if they beat Microsoft to the punch..

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Funnypics
sharks by cahiha · 2006-05-01 12:38 · Score: 2, Insightful

The sharks seem to be circling each other: RIM, NTP, Visto, etc. Let them all sue each other out of existence, while the rest of us keep using our wireless E-mail based on standard protocols and standard servers.
Shoot the lawyers by Lead+Butthead · 2006-05-01 12:39 · Score: 2, Funny

No matter which company wins this round, the lawyers win, ALWAYS. I say we take'em out of the equation.

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ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI!?
Advice for RIM: Help abolish Software Idea Patents by billybob2 · 2006-05-01 12:41 · Score: 3, Interesting

RIM's Chairman recently said he will work to bring an end to Software Idea Patents.

It would be great to see RIM financially support initiatives like NoSoftwarePatents.org and SWPat.ffii.org, whose aims are to stop the legalized extortion by the Patent Leeches and Patent Mafia.
Re:Coincidence? by frdmfghtr · 2006-05-01 12:43 · Score: 4, Interesting

No, what I find interesting is this:

NTP owns a stake in Visto, Bloomberg News reported.

I can't place it, but something just doesn't seem right...why does the idea of NTP using RIM's money to go after RIM again come to mind?

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Government's idea of a balanced budget: take money from the right pocket to balance...oh who am I kidding?
Yea, software patents are bad. by Inoshiro · 2006-05-01 12:56 · Score: 3, Informative

Straight from the innovations in software page, we have: "As patentability has increased, there's good evidence that the number of software innovations has decreased. Bessen and Maskin also demonstrated a statistical correlation between the spread of patentability in the United States and a decline in innovation in software. In particular, between 1987 and 1994 , software patents issuance rose 195%, yet real company funded R&D fell by 21% in these (software) industries while rising by 25% in industries in general. This paper gives additional evidence that software patents are inversely related to innovation; it's hard to not notice that as patenting become more common (e.g., 1987 and later) that the number of major innovations slowed down and are almost always not patented anyway."

The link supplied is to this PDF about patents. It's worth your time to read about this research.

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Internet Explorer (n): Another bug -- that is, a feature that can't be turned off -- in Windows.
Re:The saddest part... by Anonymous Coward · 2006-05-01 13:11 · Score: 3, Informative

Wow, Visto has no products. I guess their clients will be surprised to hear that. Clients like AT&T Wireless, Bell Mobility, KPN, Manitoba Telecom Services, Nextel Communications, Inc., Rogers Wireless, SaskTel Mobility, SmarTone, TELUS Mobility, Vodafone Global, Vodafone Germany, Vodafone Italy and Vodafone Spain (lifted from http://www.visto.com/about/index.html). "Visto's products are used by over 200,000 mobile professionals globally. Our enterprise customers include GE, Sara Lee, USA Credit Union, and Xerox."

And what are their products? Again, same web page:
"Visto Mobile(TM) is Visto's patented, operator-grade platform for mobile access to corporate and personal email, calendar, contacts (PIM) and other corporate data. Visto Mobile provides secure, IP-push, continuously synchronized, real-time access to email/PIM data for POP3, Microsoft Outlook/Exchange and IBM Lotus Notes/Domino servers via GPRS and CDMA 1x wireless networks. Visto Mobile Enterprise Server and Visto Mobile Personal Edition solutions support WAP and most other browser enabled phones or PCs, along with smart phones using Symbian OS, Palm OS, Windows Mobile for Smartphone and Pocket PC Phone Edition, and J2ME operating systems, as well as IMAP and SyncML-based clients. Visto's customized, brandable solutions are available through to mobile operators worldwide as a hosted service or a fully licensable and integrated platform."

Not exactly NTP....