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Computer Network Time Synchronization

Ben Rothke writes "For most people, having their clocks accurate to within a few millionths of a second is excessive. Yet there are plenty of reasons to ensure that clocks on networks and production systems are that accurate. In fact, the need for synchronized time is a practical business and technology decision that is an integral part of an effective network and security architecture. The reality is that an organizations network and security infrastructure is highly dependent on accurate, synchronized time." Read the rest of Ben's review. Computer Network Time Synchronization author David L. Mills pages 304 publisher CRC rating 10 reviewer Ben Rothke ISBN 0849358051 summary Definitive reference on how to deploy and use NTP

From a practical perspective, nearly every activity requires synchronized time to operate at peak levels, from plane departures and sporting events, to industrial processes, IP telephony, GPS and much more. Within information technology, technologies from directory services, collaboration, to authentication, SIM and VoIP all require accurate and synchronized time to work effectively.

Computer Network Time Synchronization: The Network Time Protocol is a valuable book for those that are serious about network time synchronization. David Mills, the author of the book, is one of the pillars of the network time synchronization community, and an original developer of the IETF-based network time protocol (NTP). The book is the summation of his decades of experience and a detailed look at how to use NTP to achieve highly accurate time on your network.

While network time synchronization is indeed crucial to corporate networks, this is only the second book on the topic. Last year saw Expert Network Time Protocol: An Experience in Time with NTP, which is a most capable title. But this book is clearly the indisputable reference on the subject, given its extraordinary depth and breadth. While Expert Network Time Protocol gets into the metaphysics of time, Mills's book takes a much more rationalist and pragmatic approach, which explains the myriad mathematical equations.

Mills is an electrical engineer by training and a significant part of the books 15 chapters involve advanced mathematics. But even for those who can't manage such equations, there is enough relevant material to make the book most rewarding.

Chapters 1 and 2 provide an excellent overview of the basics of network timekeeping and an overview of how NTP works. We often take for granted that network computers have the capabilities to set their internal clock. But while the capabilities are there, the reality is that these clocks are rarely accurate and subjected to many externalities that affect their ability to provide accurate time. The book shows how highly accurate time is easily achievable; often without the need for additional hardware. The goal of book is to show the reader how they can use NTP to synchronize the time on their network hosts to within a few milliseconds.

Chapters 3 - 11 detail the internals of NTP and time synchronization. Topics such as clock discipline algorithms, clock drivers and more are detailed. For many readers, the information may be overkill, but remember that this is not a For Dummies book.

Chapters 13 - 15 ease up on the abstract mathematics and are much more readable to newbie to the world of time synchronization. Chapter 13 is quite readable and details the metrology and chronometry of how NTP measures time as opposed to other time scales.

One of the key differences is the notion of absolute vs. relative time. Relative or astronomic time is based on the earth's rotation. Since the earth's rotation is not absolute, leap seconds are added to keep UTC (Universal Coordinated Time) synchronized with the astronomical timescale.

So what exactly is this legendary thing called the second? In 1967, the 13th General Conference on Weights and Measures defined the International System unit of time, the second, in terms of atomic time rather than the motion of the Earth. Specifically, a second was defined as the duration of 9,192,631,770 cycles of microwave light absorbed or emitted by the hyperfine transition of cesium-133 atoms in their ground state undisturbed by external fields.

Since the 17th century, time has for the most part been measured astronomically via the solar day. But in the 1940s, it was established that the earth's rotation is not constant, as the earth is spinning slower than it did years ago.

Part of what NTP provides is coordination to UTC. UTC provides operating systems and applications with a common index to synchronize events and prove that events happened when timestamps state they did. UTC is a 24-hour clock system and that any given moment, UTC is the same no matter where you are located.

For the purist, UTC really stands for Coordinated Universal Time, but both terms are used. Mills somewhat humorously notes that we follow the politically correct convention of expressing international terms in English, and their abbreviations in French.

Chapter 15 concludes the book with a fascinating look at the technical history of NTP. As of mid-2006, NTP has been in use for over 25 years and remains one of the longest, if not longest running, continuously operating application protocols in use on the Internet. Currently in version 4.2.1, NTP is a well-developed, stable protocol.

For those that are simply interested in how time synchronization works, or are responsible for time synchronization in their organization, Computer Network Time Synchronization: The Network Time Protocol is the most comprehensive guide available to using NTP.

For those that need an exhaustive tome on all of the minutiae related to NTP and synchronization, this is the source. Short of a vendor and product analysis, the book covers every detail within NTP and is the definitive title on the subject.

Two new books on the subject in a year demonstrate the importance of time synchronization. While this is not likely indicative of a flood of new books on time synchronization, this book should be considered the last word on the topic."

You can purchase Computer Network Time Synchronization from bn.com. Slashdot welcomes readers' book reviews -- to see your own review here, read the book review guidelines, then visit the submission page.

240 comments

  1. OMG by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Funny

    I'm n'sync here!

  2. Finally, an NTP book for the masses by Giant+Ape+Skeleton · · Score: 5, Funny

    It's about time!

    --
    The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits.
    1. Re:Finally, an NTP book for the masses by From+A+Far+Away+Land · · Score: 3, Funny

      "It's about time!"

      I clocked your pun doing 110 in a 100 pun zone. If convicted, the punishment is setting VCR clocks in your state, each to within a fraction of a second of each other.

    2. Re:Finally, an NTP book for the masses by Seraphim1982 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Just cut the power for a few minutes. Then they'll all be blinking '12:00'.

    3. Re:Finally, an NTP book for the masses by fm6 · · Score: 1

      Not possible any more -- they stopped making VCRs with external clock displays. Can't imagine why!

    4. Re:Finally, an NTP book for the masses by ottothecow · · Score: 1
      The most recent two I bought have external clocks still

      The difference is that they now set the time themselves off of the signals coming from the antenna.

      --
      Bottles.
  3. NTP gurus wanted... ? by crazyjeremy · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Seriously... about how many people out there actually need to know NTP to this degree? Anyone have a rough estimate? I can't imagine any one organization would have to dedicate an individual to this sort of thing or would they?

    1. Re:NTP gurus wanted... ? by ejdmoo · · Score: 1

      Indeed. Once you know a few basics (like those D-Link didn't), NTP tends to "Just Work."

    2. Re:NTP gurus wanted... ? by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 3, Interesting
      Seriously... about how many people out there actually need to know NTP to this degree?

      Oh, about 10. But how many weird things do you know that not many others would value?

      Some people are really, really into keeping time. It's a hobby for them. This book is for that sort of person. Besides, although my company didn't need to hire a person to do nothing but NTP, they certainly needed at least one person on staff with that skillset (hint: Active Directory, Kerberos, "clockskew") to keep everything else working. How fortunate for me that my boss needs the skills that I picked up out of personal curiosity!

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    3. Re:NTP gurus wanted... ? by Firehed · · Score: 1

      I'd wager the only thing they need to dedicate someone to doing is going around once a week to everyone's machine and hit "update now" under the Internet Time tab (granted an XP system, naturally). Over the week you might lose a couple seconds, but if you need that much precision, there's a reason we invented cell phones.

      --
      How are sites slashdotted when nobody reads TFAs?
    4. Re:NTP gurus wanted... ? by coleblak · · Score: 1

      Is that 10 in binary or in fingers?

      --
      77 HITS
      Really Long Off Topic Combo
    5. Re:NTP gurus wanted... ? by Raul654 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Mills told me he was rather popular back around the year 2000 ;) {to the point of being called to the White House for a series of meeting about Y2K complaince)

      More interestingly, Mills said that he fears a potential DOS against the entire internet would be to use an NTP hack to advance the clocks on all the caches, thus expiring their contents and causing the root servers to be flooded. This would effectively bring down DNS until the caches could be fixed.

      --


      To make laws that man cannot, and will not obey, serves to bring all law into contempt.
      --E.C. Stanton
    6. Re:NTP gurus wanted... ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      my company is still in seventeent century you insensitive clod

    7. Re:NTP gurus wanted... ? by Gospodin · · Score: 2, Funny

      In digits, of course... :)

      --
      ...following the principles of Heisenburger's Uncertain Cat...
    8. Re:NTP gurus wanted... ? by jacksonj04 · · Score: 1

      On newer OSes, it just works without needing even the basics. XP, I think W2K-SP4, OS X, and the vast majority of 'ready to go' linux flavours (Such as Ubuntu, and not Gentoo).

      --
      How many people can read hex if only you and dead people can read hex?
    9. Re:NTP gurus wanted... ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My experience is that most organizations do not need to be in sync with UTC per se. However, having all time-critical services synchrnoized to a reliable central time source is important. Since many governments and colleges offer time-sync with their UTC-coordinated clocks, however, it makes sense to use an existing service instead of trying to re-invent the wheel. When I was administering NDS on Netware 5 back in the day, keeping servers with locally cached partitions synced to a central time source was critical. Otherwise the partitions of the directory stored on those servers became completely hosed and rebuilding the partitions was a huge PITA.

      Later on, as a developer, having time-synced computers became essential to the accuracy of synchronizing data between several different systems. Fortunately a small margin of error was OK, and did not kill everything, but accurate timekeeping to establish a sequence of events as they actually occurred (as accurately as possible) helped to maintain the integrity of our data and keep things humming along. I can't count the number of arguments I had with Manglement (oops Management) over how important an accurate timeline is under some circumstances. Just as important is the ability to accurately establish a sequence of events for troubleshooting purposes. Hard to do when clocks are off.

    10. Re:NTP gurus wanted... ? by jimwelch · · Score: 2, Informative

      >>about how many people out there actually need to know NTP to this degree?

      NTP or acurate time?

      I am sure you can find the answer to acurate time on Google or by reading the book.
      But just to get us started:

        * network file sharing with central backup
        * ditto with CVS type system.
        * network databases.

      --
      Never trust a man wearing a coat and tie!
    11. Re:NTP gurus wanted... ? by schon · · Score: 2, Funny

      Some people are really, really into keeping time.

      Yeah, it's called OCD. :o)

    12. Re:NTP gurus wanted... ? by drewzhrodague · · Score: 1

      I read about NTP via O'Reilly's crab-book, I think. Either that, or it was the de facto Systems Administration Handbook, which I keep giving away to people. For keeping a set of servers in sync. Generally, I just populate /etc/ntp/step-tickers and restart, but it has been made easy over the years.

      I understand that I can have a GPS, and plug it into my host, that I can use NTP to distribute the time from there to my local network. I haven't had a GPS to dedicate to that purpose yet, but I found NTP interesting. I don't do any realtime things yet. This book would be interesting to read, and to brandish from the office bookshelf.

      --
      Zhrodague.net - I do projects and stuff too.
    13. Re:NTP gurus wanted... ? by Detritus · · Score: 1

      It's useful information if you are going to design time distribution networks, troubleshoot them, or evaluate their performance. NTP's algorithms are much more exposed to the user than those in protocols like TCP. It lets you twist many of the knobs.

      --
      Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
    14. Re:NTP gurus wanted... ? by Prof.Phreak · · Score: 1

      Seriously... about how many people out there actually need to know NTP to this degree?

      None. In fact, at wr0k, I setup NTP on all boxes in a matter of 20 minutes (without -ever- having used/configured NTP). It's just a matter of reading the man page, changing servers in config files, and... well.. starting NTP server. That's it.

      One would have to be pretty thick headed to need a 300 page book to explain it.

      --

      "If anything can go wrong, it will." - Murphy

    15. Re:NTP gurus wanted... ? by fm6 · · Score: 1
      Seriously... about how many people out there actually need to know NTP to this degree?
      Roughly speaking? Nobody. Most NTP features are designed to allow large scale-sharing of a few expensive precision time devices. Nowadays, anybody who cares that much about accurate time keeping can afford a GPS or CDMA device. The rest of us can just poll pool.ntp.org occasionally. NTP software is helpful for both strategies — but you'll never need most of it.
    16. Re:NTP gurus wanted... ? by DerekLyons · · Score: 2, Informative
      Seriously... about how many people out there actually need to know NTP to this degree? Anyone have a rough estimate? I can't imagine any one organization would have to dedicate an individual to this sort of thing or would they?
      Anyone writing hard real time distributed applications will need to know NTP this deep, or deeper. So figure, at least a couple of dozen or more individuals in the brokerage sub section of the financial world *alone*.
    17. Re:NTP gurus wanted... ? by Kludge · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'm glad he wrote it down.
      What happens when he gets hit by a car?
      Reading a book is much easier than decyphering code.

    18. Re:NTP gurus wanted... ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Or - try running a distributed sonar system without NTP. We have a bunch little embedded boxes (read - flash only) for each of our sensors, like motion, GPS, etc, a two big honking dual-Opteron boxes for display and signal processing/database - one windows, one linux. All of which must be synchronised to within a millisecond or so. Easy you say? Remember that the whole system is power cycled on a daily basis, and is expected to be up and running a few minutes after power on. There is also no internet access, but we do have a GPS for a stable time source. NTP is great for us - but this is far from the usual configuration.

      A book like this would very useful to us right now.

    19. Re:NTP gurus wanted... ? by Gorshkov · · Score: 1

      You'd be surprised how much you might need that precision. I have a small network here at home ..... my source files are based on my server, and I work with them (mounted via nfs) under unix on one machine, and under windows (mounted via smb) on another.

      RCS/CVS/make et all can get SERIOUSLY screwed up if the timestamps are off by even a second.

    20. Re:NTP gurus wanted... ? by QuietLagoon · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Seriously... about how many people out there actually need to know NTP to this degree?

      A small percentage of computers need to be controlled to the accuracy of NTP's capability, and to the level of knowledge represented in this august book.

      For the rest of us there's OpenNTP which is a much simplified and more secure version of NTP. If you're happy with a clock that is accurate to two- or three-hundred milliseocnds, check it out.

    21. Re:NTP gurus wanted... ? by mrbooze · · Score: 1

      More importantly, how many people need it enough to pay $70-100 for it? Or am I somehow reading the price on Amazon and BN wrong?

    22. Re:NTP gurus wanted... ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey, I never thought about that, thanks for the idea ;)

    23. Re:NTP gurus wanted... ? by gnalre · · Score: 1

      Agreed. Similar issues really, half a dozen embedded controllers + 7 or 8 workstations running windows XP all which have to be kept in sync so that alarms are accurately reported in time order.Time is from a GPS since these are marine systems and therefore internet access is difficult :)

      When NTP works well its great, but we do continually come up with problems, partly due to windows XP(we use Tardis as our XP client) but mainly due to ignorance of the engineers putting the system together about NTP.

      I will look at the book with interest

      --
      Choose your allies carefully, it is highly unlikely you will be held accountable for the actions of your enemies
    24. Re:NTP gurus wanted... ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Banks do.


      I work for a large investment bank, and we've had trouble with this recently. Because of differences in time, our servers looked like they were receiving data from the stock exchanges a few milliseconds before the published time stamp. This led to all to all of the data being thrown out because it was deemed inaccurate.


      Also, if the skew is too large between our timestamp and the exchange timestamp (more then 50ms) then we'll get blamed for high latency, even though the numbers are total bunk. Program traders want their data, they want it fast, and they want it accurate to as few ms as possible. That's their life.

    25. Re:NTP gurus wanted... ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And hopefully you didn't misconfigure it like DLink or NetGear did on their routers.

    26. Re:NTP gurus wanted... ? by Shimbo · · Score: 1

      More importantly, how many people need it enough to pay $70-100 for it?

      About the same number as need it enough to pay $30-$40 for it.

    27. Re:NTP gurus wanted... ? by matuscak · · Score: 1

      fwiw, Tardis doesn't really do the full up NTP bag of tricks. If your'e really serious about timekeeping on Windows, get the Windows port of the standard NTP distribution. See: http://ntp.isc.org/bin/view/Main/ExternalTimeRelat edLinks The real NTP does a better job of disciplining the clock than Tardis and its free to boot. We use the one by Terje Mathisen which is a straight port of the *ix versions, text config files and all. The Meinberg version IIRC has a GUI.

    28. Re:NTP gurus wanted... ? by matuscak · · Score: 1

      Actually, No that is not the point of NTP. A big part of what NTP brings to the table is coordination and consistency checking. If a locally attached GPS is your only source of time, you have no way of knowing if it is sane or not. The NTP client software can be pointed at multiple servers and can make decisions about which ones are returning reasonable time.

    29. Re:NTP gurus wanted... ? by iamcadaver · · Score: 1

      Never thought I'd see so many maritime system administrators on /.

      We are still using 1pps dedicated coax for time sync on aquisition machines, but even that is supported as a time source for most NTP servers.

      --
      Before I part with'em: two pennies weigh ~4.996+/-0.014g, have a zinc core, and the face of Lincoln. You can keep 'em.
    30. Re:NTP gurus wanted... ? by bheilig · · Score: 1

      I develop embedded software for an RF radio. The radios transmit and receive encrypted voice and data and need to have accurate time to communicate. Each radio has three processors (two Intels and a TI DSP) running on different clocks. I spent a considerable amount of time figuring out how to get time from the server, setting the time on the radio, and maintaing time (even through power cycles) across all three processors. I didn't even know NTP existed. I really could have used this book a few months ago.

      Brian

    31. Re:NTP gurus wanted... ? by macdaddy · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Oh, I see. So what you're saying is that you'd forego actually knowing how to properly design a NTP system in lieu of simply bombarding stratum 2 and 3 servers with queries directly from your individual desktops. I see. That makes sense.

      Yes folks, there is a right and a wrong way to set up NTP. Having each of your individual clients poll stratum 2 or 3 (or Allah forbid a stratum 1 server) directly is like configuring each of your clients to poll the the Internet's DNS Root Servers directly. After all very few of the queries sent to the root servers are unnecessary or frivolous. A proper NTP design is essential for any entreprise-class network. I include in this ISPs. ISPs should provide their customers with a locally-available NTP service. It's extremely easy to do. Then they should block outbound NTP queries from their dynamically-assigned customers (allowing the statics out, like you normally would for exceptions to ACLs like when you block SMTP out (you do block outbound SMTP, don't you?)). I've long-since believed that NTP will someday become a point of attack. It's not that I find a fault in the program or protocol but the very fact that it's a protocol used to enhance security and improve auditing and certainly isn't out of the minds of hackers. NTP would be fairly easy to DoS if proper ACLs aren't in place.

      The point of all this is that NTP is very easy to set up correctly and is even easier to set up wrong. I wish everyone would spend the extra 0.001% of effort to do it right.

    32. Re:NTP gurus wanted... ? by jacksonj04 · · Score: 1

      Umm... where did I say that?

      If MS want to run time.windows.com and have all standard installations of XP hit it, then let it be so.

      --
      How many people can read hex if only you and dead people can read hex?
    33. Re:NTP gurus wanted... ? by fm6 · · Score: 1

      And how many people actually do the coordination and consistency checking? I think most folks just assume that GPS and CDMA devices are reliable. It's not a big assumption.

    34. Re:NTP gurus wanted... ? by Ernesto+Alvarez · · Score: 1

      More interestingly, Mills said that he fears a potential DOS against the entire internet would be to use an NTP hack to advance the clocks on all the caches, thus expiring their contents and causing the root servers to be flooded. This would effectively bring down DNS until the caches could be fixed.


      Wouldn't that hack need to advance the clock in very small increments?
      I thought NTP servers (and clients) had a check that prevented them from resetting the clock a large amount of time (more than 10 minutes difference = server fault, IIRC).
  4. All you need to know about NTP by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 5, Funny
    1. Operate a stratum 1 ticker.
    2. Get D-Link to use you as the non-configurable time source for a line of disposable networking gear.
    3. Profit!

    Congrats to PHK for finding the elusive middle step!

    --
    Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    1. Re:All you need to know about NTP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Can you elaborate?

      Thanks.

    2. Re:All you need to know about NTP by Tackhead · · Score: 4, Funny
      > 2. Get D-Link to use you as the non-configurable time source for a line of disposable networking gear.

      The man who uses one NTP server always knows what time it is. The man who uses two NTP servers is never sure.

      The man who wrote the firmware for D-Link is why nobody's sure anymore.

    3. Re:All you need to know about NTP by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

      D-Link settled with an NTP admin for an undisclosed amount after abusing his server.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    4. Re:All you need to know about NTP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Coulda been a woman. They *do* make mistakes too. ...lets see how the mods take this one.... flamebait? informative? insightful? troll? I bet they just leave it alone....

      #%%#%%#

    5. Re:All you need to know about NTP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wonder. You can try to tend to your audience's liberal sensitivies by alternating between he and she in your writing, but will that piss someone off when you suggest that a she made a completely boneheaded mistake?

    6. Re:All you need to know about NTP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, it's just pretty boneheaded to be talking about a person in general and continually use the word "man."

  5. ieee 1588 is where it is at by __aapopf3474 · · Score: 5, Informative
    NTP is somewhat coarse, IEEE 1588 gives much tighter timing. IEEE 1588 can be used for industrial automation.

    From the intro:

    Measurement and control systems are widely used in traditional test and measurement, industrial automation, communication systems, electrical power systems and many other areas of modern technology. The timing requirements placed on these measurement and control systems are becoming increasingly stringent. Traditionally these measurement and control systems have been implemented in a centralized architecture in which the timing constraints are met by careful attention to programming combined with communication technologies with deterministic latency. In recent years an increasing number of such systems utilize a more distributed architecture and increasingly networking technologies having less stringent timing specifications than the older more specialized technologies. In particular Ethernet communications are becoming more common in measurement and control applications. This has led to alternate means for enforcing the timing requirements in such systems. One such technique is the use of system components that contain real-time clocks, all of which are synchronized to each other within the system. This is very common in the general computing industry. For example essentially all general purpose computers contain a clock. These clocks are used to manage distributed file systems, backup and recovery systems and many other similar activities. These computers typically interact via LANs and the Internet. In this environment the most widely used technique for synchronizing the clocks is the Network Time Protocol, NTP, or the related SNTP.

    Measurement and control systems have a number of requirements that must be met by a clock synchronization technology. In particular:

    • Timing accuracies are often in the sub-microsecond range,
    • These technologies must be available on a range of networking technologies including Ethernet but also other technologies found in industrial automation and similar industries,
    • A minimum of administration is highly desirable,
    • The technology must be capable of implementation on low cost and low-end devices,
    • The required network and computing resources should be minimal.

    In contrast to the general computing environment of intranets or the Internet, measurement and control systems typically are more spatially localized.

    IEEE 1588 addresses the clock synchronization requirements of measurement and control systems.

    1. Re:ieee 1588 is where it is at by fruity_pebbles · · Score: 1

      As I understand it, IEEE 1588 requires special hardware in order to achieve its full accuracy. My guess would be that on non-special hardware (i.e. a typical PC) it's not going to achieve any better accuracy than other network time protocols.

    2. Re:ieee 1588 is where it is at by gokeln · · Score: 1

      So, why would anyone want to support this standard over NTP?

      --

      There's no time to stop for gas, we're already late.
    3. Re:ieee 1588 is where it is at by __aapopf3474 · · Score: 2, Informative

      IEEE 1588 is much more accurate than NTP. Yes, to get greatly increased accuracy, it is helpful to have switches that properly handle 1588 traffic. However, this is not a huge issue with industrial automation, where one has complete control over the hardware. Yes, I'm not sure if running 1588 over the commodity internet would buy you much. However, if you really wanted tight timing, then 1588 is worth a look. The reason to use 1588 over NTP is if you need greater accuracy like +/- 60ns. My interest in 1588 is dealing with realtime distributed operating systems. It is starting to look like interesting things can be done if you have a really precise clock on physically distributed nodes. This could be interesting for distributed time triggered architectures.

    4. Re:ieee 1588 is where it is at by pla · · Score: 1

      NTP is somewhat coarse, IEEE 1588 gives much tighter timing.

      While true, the two also serve radically different needs.

      NTP makes it trivial to keep every machine on a LAN to within less than 1ms of each other (though the FP comment about "accurate to within a few millionths of a second" struck me as laughable even for most stratum-1 (GPS PPS) machines). NTP also makes it trivial to keep my LAN within a few tens of ms of "real" UTC, and consequently within a few (x2) tens of ms of any other computer on the planet that bothers setting up an NTP client. And due to ready availability of GPS receivers in recent years, no admin has any good excuse for not running their NTP server(s) as stratum-2 (if not right at stratum-1) and the rest of their LAN as stratum-3 (or 2).

      IEEE 1588 basically only exists to circumvent the idea that you can't have a stratum-0 device act as a time source right on the network (along with what amounts to a primative "NTP first" QoS right in the switch). Depending on the specific implementation, it may well make sub-microsecond accuracy possible (though I would seriously question such a claim solely on the basis of clock drift between updates), but at the cost of requiring dedicated hardware.

  6. Origination of abbreviation UTC by flooey · · Score: 5, Informative

    In case anyone's interested, one of the reasons that the abbreviation is UTC is because there are a series of Universal Time time references: UT0, UT1, etc. Despite being officially "Coordinated Universal Time", it's abbreviated as UTC partly to continue the UTx notation.

    1. Re:Origination of abbreviation UTC by DuBois · · Score: 0
      Not so. From Wikipedia:

      'The International Telecommunication Union wanted Coordinated Universal Time to have a single abbreviation for all languages. English speakers and French speakers each wanted the intials of their respective languages' terms to be used internationally: "CUT" for "coordinated universal time" and "TUC" for "temps universel coordonné". As a compromise, a variation of the English term was used, with the verbal adjective trailing as in French. "UTC" can thus be read as "universal time coordinated", although that is not the correct name in English.'

      So, it's English words in the French order.

      --
      The IPCC has purposely engineered a massive scientific fraud.
    2. Re:Origination of abbreviation UTC by flooey · · Score: 2, Informative

      Not so. From Wikipedia:

      The very next paragraph in that article says:

      "UTC" also has the benefit that it fits in with the pattern for the abbreviations of variants of Universal Time. "UT0", "UT1", "UT1R", and others exist, so appending "C" for "coordinated" to the base "UT" is very satisfactory for those who are familiar with the other types of UT.

    3. Re:Origination of abbreviation UTC by jpetts · · Score: 4, Funny

      Also, so nobody suggests using Coordinated Universal Network Time.

      --
      Call me old fashioned, but I like a dump to be as memorable as it is devastating - Bender
    4. Re:Origination of abbreviation UTC by dotgain · · Score: 1

      Besides, trying to shoot someone's point given as fact down with only a Wikipedia link is pretty weak anyway.

    5. Re:Origination of abbreviation UTC by un1quen1ck · · Score: 1

      As in a previous : it's abbreviated as UTC ** partly ** to continue the UTx notation. Obviously, Coordinated Universal Network Time would contain parts incomprehensible to all the avid ./ readers... My suggestion would be easier for ./tters to comprehend --?-- "Truly International Time Synchronization". :)

    6. Re:Origination of abbreviation UTC by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The very next paragraph in that article says:

      "UTC" also has the benefit that it fits in with the pattern for the abbreviations of variants of Universal Time. "UT0", "UT1", "UT1R", and others exist, so appending "C" for "coordinated" to the base "UT" is very satisfactory for those who are familiar with the other types of UT.


      That's funny. I don't see any of that in the article... at least, not anymore. Muhahaha! :-)

  7. Step #1 by Iphtashu+Fitz · · Score: 2, Funny

    Don't synchronize with a time server in Denmark, unless of course you are in Denmark.

  8. I've always wondered... by SenorAmor · · Score: 5, Interesting

    It's been proven that the Earth is rotating slower than it used to be, and the definition of a second was changed so that the length of a second remains constant. The day, however, remains the same as it always has been: one full rotation of the Earth. Eventually there will be conflict between the two. If the rotation of the Earth continues to slow, there will be more seconds (and, in turn, more minutes, and then more hours) in a given day. To that end, I've always wondered what would be more disruptive to the human populace: longer days or longer seconds?

    1. Re:I've always wondered... by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 2, Insightful
      To that end, I've always wondered what would be more disruptive to the human populace: longer days or longer seconds?

      Longer seconds. The change in length of a day is extremely gradual ("glacial" is fast by comparison), but as seconds are defined in terms of physical constants, a changing second means that our physics have ripped and we're fixin' to die.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    2. Re:I've always wondered... by hubie · · Score: 2, Informative
      and the definition of a second was changed so that the length of a second remains constant
      This isn't my field of study, but I believe the second is defined as a certain number of oscillations between two hyperfine levels of the cesium-133 atom. This was done in the late sixties to get the definition of the second away from earth rotations and tie it to something more reliable and easy to measure.
    3. Re:I've always wondered... by iggymanz · · Score: 2

      leap seconds are added to the "civil" day to solve that problem roughly every year at present. And there's more than one type of "day", there's mean solar day, which in 1820a.d. was 86,400 atomic seconds, and now is about 2 milliseconds longer.

    4. Re:I've always wondered... by Architect_sasyr · · Score: 1

      Longer days... if it was longer seconds than 3/4's of the slashdot population would be getting more sex for the 30 second's of pleasure ;) Not a problem I am concerned about...

      --
      Me failed English...
      FreeBSD over Linux. If my comments seem odd, this may explain...
    5. Re:I've always wondered... by pclminion · · Score: 1

      Changing the size of the fundamental units merely changes the value of the various physical constants. Physics works just fine no matter what units you use. However, a redefinition of the physical constants would open the possibility of accidentally mixing old and new units in a calculation (and NASA has shown us what sorts of things can happen in that event).

    6. Re:I've always wondered... by mOdQuArK! · · Score: 4, Funny

      "easy to measure" being one of those relative terms that make normal people roll their eyes when thinking about engineers & scientists :-)

    7. Re:I've always wondered... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just make sure my dick doesn't get any shorter. Jesus.

    8. Re:I've always wondered... by HappyEngineer · · Score: 1

      Changing the length of a day is just a display issue. The number of milliseconds since Jan 1, 1970 would be the same as it always was. Changing the length of a second would cause all kinds of problems. It'd make Y2K look like a trivial change. Just as a simple example: the meter is defined as the length that light travels in a vacuum in 1/299792458 s. The values of basic constants in physics would need to all change. You'd have to look at the publish date on a book to determine whether the values are correct or not.

    9. Re:I've always wondered... by Oloryn · · Score: 2, Funny
      To that end, I've always wondered what would be more disruptive to the human populace: longer days or longer seconds?

      How many people do you know who don't want more seconds (or more likely, minutes or hours) in a day?

    10. Re:I've always wondered... by dfgchgfxrjtdhgh.jjhv · · Score: 1

      but, if you dont know the exact length of a second, you dont know the 'new' unit, so your physics calculations are wrong.

      that was the point the parent was making.

      if the second changes in length as the earth slows, you'll never know the exact length of a second.

      which is why the second is now a fixed absolute unit.

    11. Re:I've always wondered... by NixieBunny · · Score: 1
      It depends whom you ask. The folks who make atomic clocks would be highly bothered if you were to change the definition of a second. Mere mortals, on the other hand, probably wouldn't notice until the day had stretched to 26 hours long, and they may well adapt evolutionarily to that by then.

      The thing about the daily cycle of a human is that it's a driven oscillation - the earth's rotation makes us get up in the morning and to bed at night. Driven oscillations occur at a higher frequency than the natural frequency of the resonator (you).

      --
      The determined Real Programmer can write Fortran programs in any language.
    12. Re:I've always wondered... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Earth doesn't rotate once every 24 hours. It rotates every 23 hours 56 minutes 04. 09053 seconds. The tangent point to the Sun aligns every 24 hours given some minor variation. The differences in time have been made up in the calendar over the years and in fact our present calendar will require a correction. The Mayan calendar was actually more accurate then ours. In 1751 a correction was made for all the accumulated error and September ended on the 15th. One other point is that time is a relative measurement much like the movement of planets, galaxies, stars........ It depends on where it is measured and at what relative velocity you are measuring it at. As relative velocity increases time slows as repeatedly verified by Einstein's equations. Therefore if your days stretch into really long days go very slooooooooooow! Time can also pass at different points between a datum at different rates therefore nobody really has the correct time because it doesn't really exist. For example an atomic clock on a supersonic aircraft will show less elapsed time after traveling around the Earth at supersonic speeds than the identical clock stationary on the Earth.

    13. Re:I've always wondered... by Frank+T.+Lofaro+Jr. · · Score: 1

      The human body will run on a 25 hour cycle without any outside stimuli.

      It is way easier to go west than east as far as jet lag - moving sleep and wake time an hour later is effortless, an hour earlier is hard.

      --
      Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
    14. Re:I've always wondered... by pe1chl · · Score: 1

      A leap second was inserted on dec 31, 2005, but the last one before that was on dec 31, 1998.

      Not really what I would call "roughly every year"...

    15. Re:I've always wondered... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For one thing, we'd have to start saying "North Carolina" instead of "Mississippi".

    16. Re:I've always wondered... by Epi-man · · Score: 1

      And here I thought I was going to be all that and correct you. I was taught in school the 1960 definition (Krypton-86 wavelength), not the 1983 definition (yours, the correct one), and have blissfully unaware of the change. Thanks for enlightening me this morning!

      For reference, here is what NIST has to say about the matter.

    17. Re:I've always wondered... by doombob · · Score: 1

      I know it may be trivial to some people, but I've always worn a watch with a seconds hand because I need it to figure out how many beats per minute to play music at. I used to be in a string quartet and that is how I figured out how fast to play. 120 beats per minute is really easy to figure out with a seconds hand - slower seconds would screw up years of figuring out the my bpm. Not to mention things like heart rate. Oh, and don't get me started on how long television shows would then be on the air!

    18. Re:I've always wondered... by Jedi+Alec · · Score: 1

      How many people do you know who don't want more seconds (or more likely, minutes or hours) in a day?

      Depends, I guess, where those seconds end up. Longer working days doesn't sound all that much fun to me, tbh.

      --

      People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
    19. Re:I've always wondered... by iggymanz · · Score: 1

      23 in the 34 years since first one in 1972, currently 0.67 per year. There are other factors in the the earth's rotation that make skipping or even a negative one necessary sometimes

    20. Re:I've always wondered... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Although the length of the second doesn't change elapsed time is dependent of velocity relative to the point of measure given by dT=dT(0)/((1-(v^2/c^2))) therefore as you speed up relative to a point elapsed time relative to that point slows down. I'm sure this will be a significant consideration in the design of the next generation of electronic toilets which can capture the only thing faster than the speed of light, which is diarrhea!

    21. Re:I've always wondered... by Eravau · · Score: 1

      And yet we're forced to do both once a year. [Insert whine about the pointlessness of daylight savings time.]

  9. About the author by Raul654 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Mills is a prof in my department and was my advisor back when I was an undergrad. He is a very smart guy (A bit of trivia about him - he was asked to consult for the Chinese government on the Great Firewall and turned down the offer for ethical reasons). He also prides himself on the fact that NTP has never had a serious (any?) security issue despite being around damn-near forever. One very neat observation he described during a seminar on NTP was that high CPU load increases CPU heat, and CPU heat increases clock drift. Thus, NTP can, in effect, be used to measure CPU loads remotely. Another thing is, assuming CPU load is constant, it can be used as a thermometer, and in practice he has used it to detect fan failures.

    --


    To make laws that man cannot, and will not obey, serves to bring all law into contempt.
    --E.C. Stanton
    1. Re:About the author by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There was a remote root exploit in 2001 - Advisory.

    2. Re:About the author by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even the lower grade of the crystals would only have a frequency drift well within their overall accuracy of +/-100ppm (lowest grade) or +/- 50ppm (common). Typically you are looking at +/-10ppm or so for temperature drift within the operating range of the working computer system.

      Let say 10ms is what your NTP can resolve. You'll need to be measuring over the time span of 1000 seconds for any observable frequency change of +/-10ppm.

    3. Re:About the author by nagora · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Sorry, but that's ghey.

      It's what?

      --
      "Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
    4. Re:About the author by Raul654 · · Score: 1

      I don't know where you are getting your numbers, but I asked him what the resolution is, and he said "well within one degree C"

      --


      To make laws that man cannot, and will not obey, serves to bring all law into contempt.
      --E.C. Stanton
    5. Re:About the author by delram · · Score: 0

      I've had a course by Dr.Mills and he's quite a character. He fills up his lectures with some amazing anecdotes and somehow manages to link it back to the subject at hand(atleast half the time). For eg., to illustrate the use of digital signatures, he would relate the story of how he had to get a notary public signature from an old lady to renew his ham radio license.

      I wish he'd write a book someday on the History of the Internet and its evolution. He was the first head of the Internet Architecture Board and some of his insights into why things are the way they are make for an excellent understanding of the concepts.

      Raul, I'm sure you've heard his stories about "Priests of the East" and "Priests of the West". Have you heard the one about the Mayan calendar ?

      I've had some exposure to NTP from him and would like to take a look at it some time..Maybe I'll get a used copy some day.

    6. Re:About the author by GeekGirlSarah · · Score: 1

      Mills taught an hour-long seminar on the history of the internet in 2005 as part of UDel's graduate seminar class. I know that it was recorded and available on DVD, because I have a copy, so if you're interested, maybe you could ask him and he'll send you one?

    7. Re:About the author by Raul654 · · Score: 1

      I'm the one who arranged for that seminar to be recorded (I convinced the department to pick up the $400 cost) To my knowledge, three copies were made - I got one (it's sitting on my shelf as I type this), department secretary Barbara Graham got one for the department, and Joseph (a guy in my research group) got the third and final copy. So - how did you end up with one? I am very curious to know.

      --


      To make laws that man cannot, and will not obey, serves to bring all law into contempt.
      --E.C. Stanton
    8. Re:About the author by GeekGirlSarah · · Score: 1

      I believe I have the third original! I'm one of Dr. Mills's friends, and I guess if the words Albert and Aurora, well, "aurora" make sense to you, then probably you can figure out who I am? Please leave names out of it, but if you can look me up and send me an email on maccarony I'd be happy to talk. :) Also, I think this is a fun game! I've dropped comments on your posts three or four times in the past... I was wondering when you'd reply to one. :D

    9. Re:About the author by bblboy54 · · Score: 1

      There's just something about that nick, GeekGirlSarah.... sounds hot :P

    10. Re:About the author by GeekGirlSarah · · Score: 1

      Oh, thank you! =^.^=

    11. Re:About the author by bblboy54 · · Score: 1

      Certainly.... now I'm one of those horny net geeks you speak of? :P It's actually kind of funny at the place I work. It's an enterprise data center with a collaboration of thousands of companies.... not often do you see a girl in there.... when you do, however, everyone is like "hey, hey.... did you see that!" Yea.... I guess we're all pervs... heh

    12. Re:About the author by GeekGirlSarah · · Score: 1

      I don't know... at least you didn't ask me what my favorite websites were, or try to tell me how impressive your computer is...? I think you're a few steps up on the ladder! =^.^=

    13. Re:About the author by bblboy54 · · Score: 1

      Tho I *COULD* ask you what your wearing :P

    14. Re:About the author by GeekGirlSarah · · Score: 1

      Pajama bottoms, t-shirt, underwear, and blankets! =^.^=

      I mean... what else do you wear when laptopping in bed?

    15. Re:About the author by bblboy54 · · Score: 1

      Ahhh.... what great inventions...

      Laptops! I mean LAPTOPS! :)

    16. Re:About the author by Jacer · · Score: 2, Interesting

      One would assume with the nick GeekGirlSarah, that your name is Sarah....

      --
      --fetch daddy's blue fright wig, i must be handsome when i release my rage
    17. Re:About the author by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...or you could just poll the tempature from snmp the way god intended.

  10. time joke by ch-chuck · · Score: 1

    These prisoners were hanging out in the cell when the new guy asks, "Anybody know what time it is?", and one of the older inmates says, "Oh, it's about 2006".

    --
    try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
    1. Re:time joke by one2go · · Score: 2, Funny
      Here's another one (from Zowie)

      A rather confident 007 walks into a bar and takes a seat next to a very attractive woman. He gives her a quick glance, then casually looks at his watch for a moment. The woman notices this and asks, "Is your date running late?" "No", he replies, "I am here alone. Q has just given me this state-of-the-art watch and I was just testing it." The intrigued woman says, "A state-of-the-art watch? What's so special about it?" "It uses alpha waves to telepathically talk to me," he explains. "What's it telling you now?" "Well, it says you're not wearing any panties..." The woman giggles and replies, "Well it must be broken because I am wearing panties!" 007 taps his watch, ...and says "Bloody thing must be an hour fast..."

    2. Re:time joke by OhHellWithIt · · Score: 1
      A little girl and a little boy were sitting on the steps in front of a house and sucking lollipops.

      "What flavor is your lollipop?" the girl asked the boy.

      "Cherry," he responded. "What flavor is yours?"

      "Lime!"

      --
      "Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past." -- George Orwell
  11. Duh by 0racle · · Score: 2, Interesting

    a second was defined as the duration of 9,192,631,770 cycles of microwave light absorbed or emitted by the hyperfine transition of cesium-133 atoms in their ground state undisturbed by external fields.

    Well of course, I mean, what took them so long? Seriously though it's things like this that make me ask, what on earth lead them to define it like that? Its not 9 million cycles, not 9.5 million, not an obvious number of cycles at all. How did 9,192,631,770 cycles become it, not 9,192,631,771, thats too long, not 9,192,631,769 thats too short. Only 9,192,631,770 was good enough.

    --
    "I use a Mac because I'm just better than you are."
    1. Re:Duh by PatrickThomson · · Score: 2, Informative

      They took the pre-existing definition of a second, and measured how many cycles happened in that second, then rounded that to the nearest integer and said "new definition which is only dependant on quantum mechanics".

      --
      I am one of many. My idea is not unique, nor do I expect my voice alone to sway you. I speak in a chorus of opinion.
    2. Re:Duh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They probably matched it to whatever was the best time reference at that point.

    3. Re:Duh by Ingolfke · · Score: 4, Funny

      It's part of the Davinci code.

    4. Re:Duh by richdun · · Score: 1

      Ah come on! The movie doesn't come out in the States until Friday. Where's your spoiler warning?

    5. Re:Duh by cnettel · · Score: 1

      To maintain the illusion that it didn't change from the previous definition, perharps (to within the accuracy of measurements at the time)? Of course, the final decimals were probably a bit of a hack, but a serious attempt to make the match as good as possible.

    6. Re:Duh by bobscealy · · Score: 1
      Seriously though it's things like this that make me ask, what on earth lead them to define it like that?


      Because it is the correct number.

    7. Re:Duh by Shimbo · · Score: 4, Funny

      Seriously though it's things like this that make me ask, what on earth lead them to define it like that? Its not 9 million cycles, not 9.5 million, not an obvious number of cycles at all.

      Most of the SI units have been through several iterations. At each refinement you try to have a more precise value, whilst changing the absolute value as little as possible.

      For example, why do we define an international mile to be 0.9144 metres, rather than the original 1000 double paces of a Roman legionary? Well, it's pretty hard to find a properly calibrated legionary these days.

    8. Re:Duh by Shimbo · · Score: 1

      Oops, I meant 1760 * 0.19144 metres, obviously. World's least accurate approximation of a mile there :(

    9. Re:Duh by Jardine · · Score: 1

      For example, why do we define an international mile to be 0.9144 metres, rather than the original 1000 double paces of a Roman legionary? Well, it's pretty hard to find a properly calibrated legionary these days.

      It's not hard to find one. The hard part is getting him to march 1000 double paces.

  12. Synchronization is important in the military by Aaron+England · · Score: 1

    Our General raised hell over the fact that our wall clock (which is a set of LED clocks of local time, zulu time, Baghdad and Kabul) in one conference room was two minutes faster than the wall clock in another conference room. I'm not really sure why so much vitrol was spent over a clock discrepency (the clocks aren't used to conduct operations with, just to give rough situational awareness of what time it is in different parts of the world) but that day our systems guys learned the importance of synchronized clocks. Although I think their solution wasn't anything elaborate (like syncing to a central database), just adjusting the slower clock two minutes forward.

    1. Re:Synchronization is important in the military by Ingolfke · · Score: 1

      Maybe the other conference room was in a different sub-quadrant timezone or it could have been some type of spatial anomaly.

    2. Re:Synchronization is important in the military by BenSchuarmer · · Score: 1

      During the Napoleonic wars, the Russians and Austrians agreed to meet up on a certain date for a coordinated attack. The Austrians waited, the date came and went, but the Russians didn't show up. Napolean saw that he had an advantage against the Austrians and defeated them. A few weeks later he beat the Russians too. When they tried to figure out why the Russians army was late the Russians insisted that they weren't late. The problem was that the Russians were still using the Julian calendar (instead of the Gregorian calendar).

    3. Re:Synchronization is important in the military by VAXcat · · Score: 1

      Back in the dsay, I worked at a company that had one of the largest VAXclusters in the Southwest, serving thousands of users. I had gone to some trouble to make the time set on all the systems the same, and accurate. A company vice president started calling and raising hell with my boss, complaining "the time on the system is off". I redoulbed my efforts, wrote code to dial the National Bureau of Standards time modem, and code that distributed and checked the time on all systems. Complaints kept coming in. I debugged and tested, and went back to my boss, and told him, it ain't gonna get any more accurate than this, it's correct and synched to a fraction of a second. My boss checks with the VP to see what he's complaining about...turns out, if the system time didn't agree with the time on his mechanical Rolex, which he set every month or so by the time the news guy on the radio said it was, then...the system time was wrong. I gave up, and refused to discuss it with my boss anymore.

      --
      There is no God, and Dirac is his prophet.
  13. I propose a new standard! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I propose a new standard:

    Concurrent
    Unified
    Network
    Time
    Synchronization

    1. Re:I propose a new standard! by Ingolfke · · Score: 1

      What about the Second Modulating Entropic Laser Light Yield issue?

  14. Accurate time useful in computer security by SecureTheNet · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Accurate time is very useful in computer security work. For one, it's needed to accurately correlate log file entries from one computer to another in case of a breach, to identify means of access and creating an accurate picture of what happened and when.

    --
    SecureThe.Net - Practical Resources for Securing Systems
    1. Re:Accurate time useful in computer security by tji · · Score: 1

      Yes, that's true. having reasonable time sync is also useful in IPsec for timers, certificate validation, etc.

      But, the original post mentioned time accuracy to the "within a few millionths of a second".. Is there any real security need for something near that level of accuracy? In my experience, the vast majority of security applications only need accuracy to within a second, or tenth of a second type levels.

      I suppose distributed IDS systems could use extreme accuracy for piecing together attacks. But, in that case, network latency differences would make accuracy to the millionth of a second meaningless.

  15. Of Phones and Networks by nbannerman · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I run the network and phone system in a college, and whilst I appreciate NTP is great, it does have drawbacks.

    The biggest problem is keeping computer systems synched to 'real life' systems, such as analogue clocks and college bells. These systems have a mind of their own, and are seemingly set to random times.

    A prime example; my computer at work synchs from the web, as do the servers, which in turn means all the Cisco VoIP phones are synched as well. The bells however, are never quite spot on, nor are the many analogue clocks in offices and classrooms.

    Does anyone have a method of keeping everything in synch, because centralised and synchronised systems fall apart when dealing with 'real life' systems that are out of my hands.

    1. Re:Of Phones and Networks by dgatwood · · Score: 1
      I once wrote a bell controller app for the Apple II (using the switchable joystick outputs to close a relay). You could do something similar and run it on a UNIX box hooked up to a cheaply available USB prototyping kit. Tie it across the existing manual trigger switch for the bell system, then set the bell system to "silent" mode.

      The problem is not one of keeping yourself in sync with a poorly designed system. The problem is one of the poorly designed system needing to be improved to stay in sync with the rest of the planet.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    2. Re:Of Phones and Networks by nbannerman · · Score: 1

      I honestly never would've thought of setting something up like that. Excellent idea; I'll investigate the inner-workings of the system tomorrow and see if I can throw something together along those lines. Many thanks! :)

    3. Re:Of Phones and Networks by jackbarnett · · Score: 1

      You can buy "real life" clocks that syncs with UTC (via NTP or otherwise). We have LED wall clocks at work that sync via Sattelie. They work great (untill a cloud storm that is :P ). Just search google for "wall clock sync" and it returns a bunch. Some sync via wireless, sattelie, dialup, ethernet, other... Just depends on if you really need to be within a second on your "real life" clocks and if so, are you willing to pay up for them?

    4. Re:Of Phones and Networks by Ingolfke · · Score: 1

      Have you gone off your meds? I mean seriously... it isn't healthy to worry about things like this.

    5. Re:Of Phones and Networks by nbannerman · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Personally, I'm not too fussed. I'm not *that* bothered, but it'd be nice to put something in place that'll stop the complaints from support staff.

    6. Re:Of Phones and Networks by k12linux · · Score: 2, Funny

      Easy. Get payroll to set all punch-clocks to the NTP time. You'll find that most manual clocks will "magically" adjust themselves shortly after.

    7. Re:Of Phones and Networks by wkk2 · · Score: 1

      If your application doesn't need a lot of current, an old modem can act as a switch.
      Just send it an AT command to go off hook and back on hook.

    8. Re:Of Phones and Networks by QuesarVII · · Score: 1
      You can even skip the usb kit and just use a parallel port. A simple c app can toggle the data pins (2-9) on and off on a parallel port, triggering a relay.

      I have the pin going through an fet (with 5v sys power feeding it) to bump up the juice enough to flip the relay in my setup. You may or may not need it with your relay and parallel port.

      I have my personal server monitor it's cable modem connection (ping tests) and cut the power via a relay to reset it if needed.

      Kind of offtopic, I know, but here is the c code to do it if you're interested:

      #include <stdio.h>
      #include <unistd.h>
      #include <sys/io.h>

      int main(int argc,char *argv[]){
      int duration;
      if(argc!=2){
      fprintf(stderr,"Usage: flip-relay <duration>\n");
      return(1);
      }
      /*defaults to relay on - swap the 255 and the 0 in
      the outb calls to reverse it*/
      duration=atoi(argv[1]);
      ioperm(0x378,8,1);
      outb(255,0x378);
      sleep(duration);
      outb(0,0x378);
      return 0;
      }
    9. Re:Of Phones and Networks by jc42 · · Score: 1

      Does anyone have a method of keeping everything in synch, because centralised and synchronised systems fall apart when dealing with 'real life' systems that are out of my hands.

      Some years back, in the 80's, I was implementing a distributed package (that eventually turned into a distributed OS, but that's another story). I had basically the same problem, but with the computers. I didn't have privileged access on most of them, so running something like NTP to sync the system clocks wasn't an option.

      It occurred to me that, for most purposes, the idea that you needed to sync the clocks was simply wrong. And a century ago both Heisenburg and Einstein explained to us why it isn't actually possible in our universe. But it's also not necessary; all you really need is for your software to correctly track the passage of time.

      One day I spent a morning adding a timestamp field to most my inter-process messages. That way, every module would be able to say "Here's the data you requested, and BTW this is what time I think it is." The data structs for a link could then keep track of the time delays (positive or negative) between the endpoints of the link, and could adjust the time fields in calls like stat() accordingly.

      It took only a few hours to get working. Well, that and a few hours now and then to add interesting tweaks to the code for tracking the transmission delays. This turns out to be pretty much what NTP does, of course. It uses the info to sync its systems' clocks.

      But you can use it to adjust other clocks' values to your own. That way, you can just let those remote systems' clocks run at their own value, and continuously adjust their timestamps to match your own clock. You can do this without any privileges.

      The main problem was that my network included VMS and DOS boxes, and their clocks weren't available to my library at better than second resolution. Most of the boxes ran unix, and by then you could get millisecond precision from most unix kernels, microsecond from a few. I had to warn people that things like my distributed make would work fine with VMS and DOS files, but for some of our apps, they should make sure that they only used unix systems because they needed the higher-precision clocks.

      What was annoying was that some of the VMS and DOS kernels did have more precise clocks, but nobody would tell a unix hacker how to get at them. This may have been because the machine's owners didn't know (and couldn't be bothered).

      Anyway, if you understand that you usually don't really need to sync the machine's clocks, the task is a lot easier than it looks. You can fix many clock problems at user level, without admin privileges.

      --
      Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
    10. Re:Of Phones and Networks by dgatwood · · Score: 1
      You know, the easiest way to do it these days would probably be to simply tie the hardware in (by whatever mechanism you prefer) and set up your bell schedule as a cron job that runs the "ringbell" binary at the appropriate time. No need to reinvent the wheel and write your own scheduler for something that simple.

      So with a little wiring, Linux, xntpd, cron, and the program that QuesarVII provided, you're done....

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

  16. In other words... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    .. C*NTS?

    1. Re:In other words... by Ingolfke · · Score: 1

      Clever, time is money (CENTS).

  17. Have to get in an OSX burn... by WiFireWire · · Score: 0, Troll
    ...while the burnin' is good

    My client recently purchased 40K Apple iBook G4 Laptops. Once deployed, the machines were curiously setting themselves to 1969. Found out that there was a bug in the systems' BIOS, (not sure if that is the traditional term for the MAC firmware) that would loose its time setting. Similar to a PC when the BIOS battery goes south.

    So from a 'time sync' security standpoint, this bug may potentially need patched?

    -- I like the above 'naked' sig...gonna steal it next forum...

  18. Clock wisdom by Copid · · Score: 2, Funny

    "A man with one clock knows what time it is. A man with two clocks is never quite sure."

    --
    An interesting anagram of "BANACH TARSKI" is "BANACH TARSKI BANACH TARSKI"
    1. Re:Clock wisdom by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unless one of them is an atomic clock.

    2. Re:Clock wisdom by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "A man with one clock knows what time it is. A man with two clocks is never quite sure."

      Man with watch have tiny clock. Man with two watch holding someone else clock.

    3. Re:Clock wisdom by BigCheese · · Score: 1

      But a man with 3 clocks has a NTP quorum.

      --
      The obscure we see eventually. The completely obvious, it seems, takes longer. - Edward R. Murrow
  19. GLOBAL SLOWING!!! by Ingolfke · · Score: 1

    AHHH!!! What have we done!? I blame Bush and the American obsession with fast cars. Each time we peel out a light we slow the Earth just a little bit more.

    1. Re:GLOBAL SLOWING!!! by Urusai · · Score: 2, Funny

      Just jackrabbit your starts to the west, and let the engine brake you going east. Do your part to stop global slowing!

    2. Re:GLOBAL SLOWING!!! by sxtxixtxcxh · · Score: 0

      i know this is a joke, but, technically speaking, there really should be a net effect. unless president bush has recently abolished newtonian physics.

      --
      for a minute there, i lost myself...
    3. Re:GLOBAL SLOWING!!! by Frank+T.+Lofaro+Jr. · · Score: 1

      Newton has been supplanted by Einstein, and Einstein's theories are likely out of date (see Petr Beckmann's theories, etc), Area 51 likely has post-Einstein tech.

      --
      Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
  20. screw this! by sc0p3 · · Score: 1

    screw this! bring on metric time!

    1. Re:screw this! by askegg · · Score: 1

      Aren't you on metric time already? If not, please set your clocks to 97 past 8 on the 63rd day of August to fall in line with the rest of us.

      --
      I don't make predictions, and I never will.
    2. Re:screw this! by iggymanz · · Score: 1

      let's go back to Decimal Time , aka French Revolutionary Time.

  21. NTP is great, except if you need it in Windows by Circuit+Breaker · · Score: 5, Interesting

    For various reasons, I'm trying to synchronize a clock to millisecond accuracy among ~50 Microsoft Windows stations, and it's nearly impossible -- No NTP client for Windows (including AboutTime, 2000's internal client, XP's internal client, and a port of the standard NTP client) appears to be able to keep time reasonably synchronized.

    Part of the problem is the Windows Kernel counting time in 10ms or 15ms (depending on whether or not you use an SMP kernel), which automatically says you can't get more than ~30ms precision. But it seems so much worse, with every machine drifting up to ~1 second daily unless they are syncrhonized very frequently -- I get somewhat reasonable results synchronizing them every minute.

    On Linux and FreeBSD, this is so trivial it's not even funny; My linux machines manage to keep synchronization to ~0.5 ms over months. Please wake me up when Windows is ready for the enterprise. And, yes, the "enterprise" I work in does need millisecond precision time-of-day synchronization among machine, as does any place that seriously tries to correlate network events (especially those related to security) collected at different points in the network.

    1. Re:NTP is great, except if you need it in Windows by ldspartan · · Score: 2, Interesting

      If its synchronizing on a schedule ("synchronizing them every minute"), you don't have an NTP client, you have an SNTP client. Real NTP doesn't have a concept of a synchronization interval, the clock is either synchronized or it isn't.

      I think.

      This appears to be a port of real-deal NTP code to windows. I've never used it, just found it in a few minutes of googling, but its worth a shot.

      --
      Phil

    2. Re:NTP is great, except if you need it in Windows by Circuit+Breaker · · Score: 1

      NTP does have a "next check" concept, or at least every NTP client I've used does (usually some form of exponential backoff when things look ok).

      The "synchronizing on a schedule" was the only solution that was somewhat close to being reasonable. No "real" NTP client I used seems to work. I didn't try this specific build, but I did try one compiled from the same sources, and it had lousy performance.

      Thanks for the link, though.

      The solution my "enterprise" finally used, btw, is to write a high precision clock synchronizer that is linked to any of our apps that need it; Thankfully, we _are_ in a position to shove the accurate clock everywhere we need. Our own code manages to keep ~0.5ms of accuracy within our network. It's not truly a general purpose solution though.

    3. Re:NTP is great, except if you need it in Windows by russotto · · Score: 1

      Sounds like you need the book. Seriously, real NTP does more that synchronize the clock periodically; it also determines the difference between the client clock frequency and the reference clock frequency, and the first derivative of the client clock frequency (wander), and uses those values to both determine how often to poll the reference sources, and to keep the clock well-synchronized between polls.

    4. Re:NTP is great, except if you need it in Windows by enjar · · Score: 1

      We use NTP on Windows, Linux, Solaris, etc. Our choice is the standard NTP client (see http://ntp.isc.org/bin/view/Main/ExternalTimeRelat edLinks#Microsoft_Windows), but it sounds like you already tried that.

      What we do is to broadcast the time packets over the network then have the clients pick them up. So there's no "forced" synchronization with a central server. You might want to give that approach a try rather than having the clients poll the server frequently. We use this approach for the 1000+ machines in our building.

    5. Re:NTP is great, except if you need it in Windows by Circuit+Breaker · · Score: 1

      Real NTP does a whole lot more.

      Windows doesn't do anything useful. That was the point of my rant. I'll probably buy the book sometime soon, but -- as I indicated -- the problem lies with the Windows kernel rather than with NTP. (And yes, I have researched this extensively).

    6. Re:NTP is great, except if you need it in Windows by Homology · · Score: 0
      Our own code manages to keep ~0.5ms of accuracy within our network.

      Common PC hardware can't keep a clock within this accuracy, besides, the OS is unlikely to try adjusting the clock to often. Accuracy within 30ms is more likely.

    7. Re:NTP is great, except if you need it in Windows by mcrbids · · Score: 1

      Never tested to milliseconds. Tested to a few seconds. Probably useless feedback. But...

      I've been using Tardis95 for many years. (Since Win95, about '97 or so)

      Link goes to a somewhat later copy that place pretty nicely with Windows NT kernel. I don't know of a later release that was licensed such that you could freely copy/share it.

      Just unzip and run the little installer - it pops up down on the system tray at the bottom left. If you have a favorite NTP server, you can specify it, otherwise you can pick from a predefined list. It works almost as simply and cleanly for me as ntp on *nix does.

      (Oh, and go easy on that link - it's a DSL circuit)

      --
      I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
    8. Re:NTP is great, except if you need it in Windows by pe1chl · · Score: 2, Informative

      Common PC hardware can't keep a clock within this accuracy

      Why not? You must be thinking about the CMOS clock?
      Current PC hardware has high-resolution timers that can be synchronized to within microseconds using NTP.

    9. Re:NTP is great, except if you need it in Windows by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Our solution was to use XNTPD, and go through the hassle of its conmfiguration, and its occasional glitches. Of course, if you're saying that a piece of unix software isn't up to the job...

    10. Re:NTP is great, except if you need it in Windows by gnalre · · Score: 1

      Agreed with tardis. However you could also try K9 by the same company if you just want to sync to a broadcast NTP signal. Same software, but simpler to setup

      --
      Choose your allies carefully, it is highly unlikely you will be held accountable for the actions of your enemies
    11. Re:NTP is great, except if you need it in Windows by mclipsco · · Score: 1

      You should try out Thinkman's Dimension 4. It is VERY nice and super easy to use.

      http://www.thinkman.com/

      --
      Take off every 'SIG'!!
  22. CNTS - Best Price at eCampus by roblambert · · Score: 0, Troll
    1. Re:CNTS - Best Price at eCampus by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nice way to hide a referral link in there, bub.

  23. To paraphrase a real-world support incident by wsanders · · Score: 1

    Big LED displays aren't cheap. Usually they have serial data input, so you can scroll random stuff on them.

    Anyway, I used to work in support at <company that used to build really fast, big, expensive supercomputers>. Just for the hell of it, a user wanted to hook up their $30 Epson dot matrix printer up to their new supercomputer, and we didn't really have a decent cheapo Epson printer driver.

    "I just paid $15 million for this damn computer and what do you mean the serial port doesn't work?"

    We fixed the serial port driver...

    --
    Give a man a fish and you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish, and he'll say "WHERE'S MY FISH, YOU IDIOT?"
  24. Summary of the book by alexhs · · Score: 1

    apt-get install ntp ntp-server ntp-doc ntpdate

    --
    I have discovered a truly marvelous proof of killer sig, which this margin is too narrow to contain.
    1. Re:Summary of the book by Kelson · · Score: 1

      Too long. Try this:

      yum install ntp

    2. Re:Summary of the book by QuesarVII · · Score: 2, Informative

      Even shorter still!

      emerge ntp

    3. Re:Summary of the book by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      For the sake of completeness, you should add the
      rc-update add ntpd default
    4. Re:Summary of the book by d3matt · · Score: 1

      yea, but you still have to configure it vi /etc/ntp.conf service ntp start chkconfig ntp 35 on

      --
      I am d3matt
  25. GPS card by hey · · Score: 4, Informative

    If you really care about time why not use a GPS card in your PC.

    eg http://www.visualgps.net/NMEATime/

    1. Re:GPS card by Darth+Liberus · · Score: 1

      Given the headaches my project is running into with ntp, we're on the verge of doing just that.

      --
      Beauty is just a light switch away.
  26. Hasn't this already been written? by Ryan+Amos · · Score: 2, Funny
    man ntpd
    1. Re:Hasn't this already been written? by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 2, Informative

      I agree with you in general: the man pages for NTP are quite good. However, there are a few vagaries that I certainly hope this book covers: why you always want at least 3 upstream NTP servers and at least 3 local ones if you're maintaining them (so that the 2 good ones can outvote the confused one), how to gracefully monitor the state of the NTP servers (the Nagios plugins are quite good!), etc.

    2. Re:Hasn't this already been written? by pVoid · · Score: 2, Funny
      from man ntpd:

      to preserve the ultimate precision, about 232 picoseconds. While the ultimate precision, is not achievable with ordinary workstations and networks of today, it may be required with future gigahertz CPU clocks and gigabit LANs.

      Man, I can just see the cobwebs floating in the wind on that thing.

  27. Offtopic, but sig related by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    You don't by chance happen to be a nudist?

  28. I am into accurate time. by JavaManJim · · Score: 4, Interesting

    For my computer I am testing an old Heath Most Accurate Clock II* with its RS232 attachment that goes to the serial port on my HP Pavilion. The only problem is the brick sized power transformer gets very hot because its supplying two amp heavy circuits. Use ThinkGeek's KillAWatt to measure power consumption. AWK the transformer is hungry. I guess for real use eventually I will peek at time once a day or so.

    *Heath Most Accurate Clock II, synchronizes with WWV at 10 meters.

    I think that the network, with all its erratic latency, is not really the best source to use as a timing transport.

    Some people have occasionally picked up old cesium clocks from ebay to set the PC's time. Most are from labs and after purchase, probably gather dust in the garage.
    http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/cesium.html

    For my wrist, myself and lots of us geeks, use a Casio G-Shock (GW-700a) that updates its time from WWV three times a night. Its more accurate than the clocks at our local public DART train station. They are always four seconds slow.

    I also have a great little Nixie clock kit that gets its info, not from WWV via radio, but from satellite GPS time. Its the dinky one at the bottom of the page. Looks fantastic though.
    http://www.amug.org/~jthomas/clockpage.html

    1. Re:I am into accurate time. by DerekLyons · · Score: 1
      I think that the network, with all its erratic latency, is not really the best source to use as a timing transport.
      It's not the best overall - but it is extraordinarly good and requires no additional hardware/
    2. Re:I am into accurate time. by Blrfl · · Score: 1

      Some people have occasionally picked up old cesium clocks from ebay to set the PC's time. Most are from labs and after purchase, probably gather dust in the garage.

      The "clocks" aren't really clocks per se; they give you a long-term stable frequency reference. The HP5071A has a clock built into it, but it's more for show than anything else, because there's no way to get the time off the unit accurately. You see a lot of 5061s on FleaBay because they're old and the Cesium tubes in them deteriorate over time. It costs about $16,000 to have a replacement put in.

      GPS takes advantage of the two Cesium and two Rubidium clocks on each of the satellites, and with a not-very-expensive receiver you can recover time to within a few microseconds of UTC.

      I have several systems at work that use GPS and a 5071A to recover and maintain to within 15 nanoseconds. That's the specification, anyway... Last I looked at the one in the lab, it thought it was good to within 3 nanoseconds.

      (And yes, my application needs that kind of precision. We actually have to calibrate out the delay in the cables.)

    3. Re:I am into accurate time. by typical · · Score: 1

      I think that the network, with all its erratic latency, is not really the best source to use as a timing transport.

      NTP does not just send a packet saying "Hey, here's the time." It compensates for this. You're thinking of the daytime protocol -- early 1980s tech.

      NTP v3 (early 90s) is much more sophisticated.

      --
      Any program relying on (nontrivial) preemptive multithreading will be buggy.
    4. Re:I am into accurate time. by Koutarou · · Score: 1, Interesting

      WWV and other similar radio clocks (I use JJY in japan) are only 1 second resolution, which makes those sort of clocks not really suitable for seriously mission critical timing needs, even though they technically qualify as stratum 1.

      At home I use a little JJY-clock built from a kit that cost me about US$40 and connects via RS-232 and is supported in the reference ntp implementation. Has a PIC, some RS-232 glue and not much more other than the antenna and VCO.

    5. Re:I am into accurate time. by JavaManJim · · Score: 1

      Thanks typical,

      Good comment. I will set up my PC to synch using NTP. It will be easy to verify with all the atomic clocks around my place. I was not thinking of "daytime" protocol, I simply was not thinking.

      Jim

    6. Re:I am into accurate time. by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      Its more accurate than the clocks at our local public DART train station. They are always four seconds slow.

      Well at least they're precise!

    7. Re:I am into accurate time. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      fool! WWV-{B) is hopelessly bad as a time reference - due to diunral effects it can be many microseconds off! Cesium - while theoretically a zero error time reference - in reality has (especially older tubes)significant drift components. Those Casio watches: I tested three. In between sync operations the drift was SECONDS PER DAY! - I stopped wearing a watch!

    8. Re:I am into accurate time. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      I think that the network, with all its erratic latency, is not really the best source to use as a timing transport.

      So you thing using the ionosphere, with all its erratic latency, is really the best source to use as a timing transport?

  29. Question about the D-Link Guy by wsanders · · Score: 1

    Was he a member of "the pool"? TFA I saw didn't really say,

    These are the [0-3].north-america.pool.ntp.org lines you put in your conf files these days, unless you are D-Link.

    The 4 IPs are set up to round robin to a big bunch of volunteer servers.

    --
    Give a man a fish and you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish, and he'll say "WHERE'S MY FISH, YOU IDIOT?"
    1. Re:Question about the D-Link Guy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The 4 IPs are set up to round robin to a big bunch of volunteer servers.

      The 4 Internet Protocols? When you earlier mentioned 4 host names? This makes absolutely no sense. At least keep your terminology straight so everyone with a clue knows wtf you are talking about and newbies don't ingest your half-knowledge.

      Round robin is provided due to the fact that each of the 4 host names resolves to more than one address or alias respectively.

    2. Re:Question about the D-Link Guy by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

      Nope. It was a private server for citizens of Denmark.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
  30. Microsoft's version of NTP by AB3A · · Score: 4, Informative

    Actually, having set up the NTP servers in our network, I have to say that the Windows version of NTP draws very substantial vacuum. It's not nearly as easy to configure. It can't be queried about what it thinks of the configured time standards, and I'm not exactly sure how they expect you to manage keys.

    As long as you don't give a damn about sub-second accuracy (in our SCADA system, we like to stay in sync within 7 milliseconds or less) and as long as you don't care about traceability, then I guess it's better than nothing. However, the NT version of Mills' NTP is free, it is very stable on all versions I've tested it on from NT through 2003 server, and the configuration is exactly the same as most POSIX systems.

    Having been there and tried it, I have to say that Microsoft did a piss poor job with their version of NTP. Get the GNU version. It Just Works Better.

    --
    Nearly fifty percent of all graduates come from the bottom half of the class!
    1. Re:Microsoft's version of NTP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Microsoft can't even figure out how to adjust software time to RTC + timezone offset. It comes as no surprise to me that they don't do well with their NTP implimentation.

      Microsoft's mantra seems to be: "Eh, good enough."

    2. Re:Microsoft's version of NTP by pe1chl · · Score: 4, Informative

      Microsoft did not implement NTP. They first needed it to be simplified to "SNTP", which essentially is what they always did: send a query, receive the result, and put the timestamp in that result in the clock.
      A full NTP implementation includes a PLL that locks the clock to the consecutive incoming timestamps. This filters out jitter and ensures that the system knows about the inaccuracy of the clock oscillator. It uses this information during the intervals between incoming timestamps.

      So, an NTP-controlled system smoothly advances time staying as close to real time as possible, while a Microsoft system has a sawtooth pattern and may even step the clock backward when a query happens to be delayed in the network.
      Don't use SNTP outside of a LAN.

    3. Re:Microsoft's version of NTP by AB3A · · Score: 1

      As of the release of Windows XP and Windows 2003 Server, Microsoft says they're using Network Time Protocol. And it did seem to work with our NTP servers. It just didn't work all that nicely.

      It may well be that they're still using SNTP, but if that's the case they need to state this up front.

      --
      Nearly fifty percent of all graduates come from the bottom half of the class!
    4. Re:Microsoft's version of NTP by pe1chl · · Score: 1

      There is no real difference in the protocol. SNTP is just the use of a subset of the NTP protocol in a naive way to step-adjust an independently running system clock. Fine to get wristwatch time on your PC, fine to get a time reference for Kerberos. That is what they use it for,

      To get submillisecond accuracy you need the real thing: NTP with PLL control of the clock. I have not seen XP do that, I don't know 2003.

    5. Re:Microsoft's version of NTP by Thundersnatch · · Score: 1

      The WIndows Time Service in 2003 SP1 and R2 seems to be a full NTP server. It clock selection of multiple source servers, and keeps time to within about 15 ms of my real ntpd server for weeks, and polls servers at similar exponentially-decaying intervals. All earlier versions seem to be very much SNTP implementations. There's a Microsoft Technet library article describing all the new Windows time service functionality.

      That said, the diagnostics still suck; it only reports connectivity issues and insane time sources. The only real way I can figure to make sure it's not misbehaving is to monitor it with another real ntp server.

  31. A question by toadlife · · Score: 1

    When I connect to our site's DC from my Windows workstation here are work, the times are indentical to the second. I also have my OpenBSD machines get their time from our Windows DC.

    But i realize, "to the second" doesn't mean "to the milisecond". How do you even find out how far off your clock is from another machine in Windows? `net time` sure as hell doesn't do it.

    --
    I don't always use unix-like operating systems; but when I do, I prefer FreeBSD.
    1. Re:A question by Circuit+Breaker · · Score: 1

      Wrote a dumbed-down client-server utility, in which one machine tells the other (using a UDP probe, or a previously established TCP connection), "tell me your time up to the millisecond".

      In a reasonably loaded LAN, you get responses back after ~0.1ms, which means there is no skew due to latency. When you do that between two Linux machines, you get better than 0.1ms sync. When you do that between Windows machines, you get up to 30ms, no matter how long you allow those two machines to try to synchronize.

      My investigations indicate that this is an implementation flaw in the Windows NT kernel which has existed since day one, and as far as I know is not expected to be fixed in Vista.

    2. Re:A question by toadlife · · Score: 1

      "My investigations indicate that this is an implementation flaw in the Windows NT kernel which has existed since day one...."

      One man's flaw is another man's "who gives a fuck?". ;)

      Might this have something to do with the fact that NT was never intended nor designed to be used in real time applications?

      --
      I don't always use unix-like operating systems; but when I do, I prefer FreeBSD.
    3. Re:A question by JourneymanMereel · · Score: 1
      Might this have something to do with the fact that NT was never intended nor designed to be used in real time applications?

      Yep. Which I believe was the entire point of the original post.
      --
      Life has many choices. Eternity has two. What's yours?
  32. It's really too bad... by idfubar · · Score: 0

    that despite having been around for 25 years there are A TON of devices that don't use the NIST time server to get an accurate time signal, especially considering the ICs for picking up the signal have gotten ridiculously cheap (pennies)... Wake me up when my microwave, VCR, and alarm clock (from Walgreens) sync up their time automatically after a power outage.

    --

    Rishi Chopra
    www.rishichopra.org
    1. Re:It's really too bad... by pommiekiwifruit · · Score: 1

      Sheesh, my hard drive recorder was out by an hour for a week. Obviously the BBC (who broadcast freeview) haven't heard of daylight saving time (british summer time) because if I fixed the clock, it would get set back by the broadcast signal. It was also a pain since for some days some tv channels were an hour ahead of others, and recordings were all screwed up.

  33. offtopic by azakem · · Score: 1

    Best dept. reference EVER!

  34. One thing about accuracy... by jafo · · Score: 2, Insightful

    On production systems it's much more important that the servers are all close to each other, not so much that they are close to NIST time. So, don't care so much that your servers are stratum 2 or 3, set up a couple of sources and then sync the rest of your boxes to them. I'd rather have all my machines be one second off but the same one second off, than have them all be closer to real time with larger differences between them.

    Also, one thing about the time on earth changing that I didn't realize before. Damming water is one of the few activities that has changed the rotation speed of the earth, I've been told. Because it collects large masses of water further from the equater.

    And if you don't want to buy a GPS, the guy responsible for the NIST time standard at NIST Boulder says that syncing your clock once a day via phone from one of their services is good enough to be considered stratum 1.

    One final time note... We used to hold our LUG meetings at NIST. One time during a meeting, their official digital clocks stopped for the better part of a minute, and then ran quickly to catch up.

    Sean

    1. Re:One thing about accuracy... by ChipMonk · · Score: 1

      Moving water away from the equator will, by definition, shift mass nearer the Earth's axis, causing it to spin faster, just like a skater pulling in his arms. However, that is not what is happening. The Earth's rotation might slow down more quickly without such water-damming, but the spin is still slowing down.

  35. Why even used NTP?? by EmbeddedJanitor · · Score: 1

    The cost of setting up a very accurate NTP set-up is far more than the cost of setting up a GPS with a timing output. The GPS would be far more accurate too (accurate to tens of nanoseconds).

    --
    Engineering is the art of compromise.
    1. Re:Why even used NTP?? by gnalre · · Score: 1

      While you can use GPS as your primary time source(which can do if you do not have internet access) how do you distribute the time signal across your network unless you have a GPS connected to every machine(which is a bit overkill)?

      If you tried just transmitting your time across the network you would be introducing delays across your network which could be significant. Therefore what you do designate a machine as your NTP server and put your GPS on it, then you and get it to broadcast NTP messages out.

      The other machines you install NTP in its client mode and they will automatically sync to the one time signal. Another advantage especially if accurate time reporting is critical is that you can designate multiple machines as time servers. You let NTP decide which one to use and if one fails ythe other machines will automatically switch over to another system, therefore maintaining your time accuracy.

      --
      Choose your allies carefully, it is highly unlikely you will be held accountable for the actions of your enemies
  36. In french? by 4D6963 · · Score: 1
    For the purist, UTC really stands for Coordinated Universal Time, but both terms are used. Mills somewhat humorously notes that we follow the politically correct convention of expressing international terms in English, and their abbreviations in French.

    Actually not exactly, there's no way you can put it in french so it fits the UTC abbreviation, but as the wikipedia says, it's a compromise between the english CUT and the french TUC, which is quite unusual.

    --
    You just got troll'd!
    1. Re:In french? by onemorechip · · Score: 1

      The one other example of this that I'm aware of is ISO

      --
      But, I wanted socialized health insurance!
    2. Re:In french? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually not exactly, there's no way you can put it in french so it fits the UTC abbreviation

      True.

      <i>it's a compromise between the english CUT and the french TUC</i>

      Not true, AFAIK.

      It simply is "Universal Time (Coordinated)", an offspring of Universal Time, from which there are several different ones, e.g. TI, GMT or UT1. And the step from UT1 -> UT(C) -> UTC isn't anything like the big mystery most people seem to see there.

  37. I need femtosecond accuracy ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    I have an application at a research lab where we have 100 networked computer/RF systems distributed over a distance of approximately 1 kilometer. We need to maintain the system clocks such that the time drift between any of the clocks is maintained at less than 250 fs. We do this (or attempt to) with a distributed RF system but if anyone knows how to do this over the computer network it would be quite interesting.

  38. Accuracy & priorities by maggard · · Score: 1
    1. my computer at work synchs from the web
      No, the point of the very complete book, which is the putative topic, is synchronization by NTP, which predates, and is entirely separate from, HTTP. I know I'm being pedantic but it irks me when folks, particularly technical persons who should know better, blithely refer to "the web" (perpetuating the miscomprehension of the online environment) and thus ignore/devalue the many non "web" parts of it.
    2. What can you do? Tell folks they can either put the other clocks and clock-driven systems on some sort of regularly updated, highly accurate, time synchronization system or come to grips with the fact that the $20 clocks on the classroom walls aren't perfectly accurate. My suggestion is to hand them a catalog with some better clocks in it and ask what parts of their budgets / paychecks they'd be willing to contribute towards rectifying this obviously intolerable situation...

    --
    I don't read ACs: If a post isn't worth so much as a nom de plume to its author then I wont bother either.
    1. Re:Accuracy & priorities by bblboy54 · · Score: 1

      .... but it irks me when folks, particularly technical persons who should know better, blithely refer to "the web" (perpetuating the miscomprehension of the online environment) and thus ignore/devalue the many non "web" parts of it.

      Like gopher?

  39. Do they have Mills' leap second stuff in there? by Animats · · Score: 3, Interesting
    Dave Mills used to like to observe what happens after a leap second. Among other things, every generator on the power grid has to make sixty extra turns, which takes about four hours. Some computer clocks used to count the power line (this seems to be rare today) and you could watch, via NTP, the stress in the clock network as the power line clocks disagreed with the WWV clocks, and slowly came into synchronism.

    Actually, synchronization is less important than it used to be, because more stuff is buffered. All three US television networks used to be locked together in frame sync to a master clock in New York, so that video sources could be switched without all the TV receivers rolling for a few frames. Now everything goes through frame buffers, so that's not an issue.

    Similarly, US telephony used to be locked to a master clock in New Jersey, so that all the T1 lines ran in sync and bit for bit transfer worked. That's not as important as it used to be, with so many different transmission media, some synchronous and some packetized.

    1. Re:Do they have Mills' leap second stuff in there? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Similarly, US telephony used to be locked to a master clock in New Jersey, so that all the T1 lines ran in sync and bit for bit transfer worked. That's not as important as it used to be, with so many different transmission media, some synchronous and some packetized.

      The master clock in New Jersey (Murray Hill) was for synchronization of FDM (frequency division multiplexing (analog)) carrier systems, not T1s. T1 is an asynchronous transmission system and was designed to handle differences in clocks. The NJ clock was replaced by one in Hillsboro, MO in the 1970s, as part of revamping the synchronization system for digital data transmission, among other reasons.

    2. Re:Do they have Mills' leap second stuff in there? by Animats · · Score: 1
      T1 is an asynchronous transmission system and was designed to handle differences in clocks.

      If only. Old modem users will remember the regular, periodic appearance of junk characters when a T1 in the path was free-running, and on every bit slip, a phase error was inserted. It's still a problem. See the T1 Survival Guide.

    3. Re:Do they have Mills' leap second stuff in there? by DerekLyons · · Score: 1
      Actually, synchronization is less important than it used to be, because more stuff is buffered. All three US television networks used to be locked together in frame sync to a master clock in New York, so that video sources could be switched without all the TV receivers rolling for a few frames. Now everything goes through frame buffers, so that's not an issue.

      Similarly, US telephony used to be locked to a master clock in New Jersey, so that all the T1 lines ran in sync and bit for bit transfer worked. That's not as important as it used to be, with so many different transmission media, some synchronous and some packetized.

      OTOH, financial markets are now global and nearly 24/7 - their need for synchronization has *increased*. (Ditto for airline ticket scheduling.) Air traffic routing has to pack increasing numbers of aircraft into a finite amount of sky near major airports - guess what has happened to their need for syncronisation?

      So, yes - synchronization is less important *for some applications*.

  40. Uh, what are you talking about? by Homestar+Breadmaker · · Score: 1

    The reference ntpd implimentation (xntpd) has had numerous security issues, including at least one remote root exploit. This would not suprise anyone who has look at the code. OpenNTPd exists for a reason you know.

    1. Re:Uh, what are you talking about? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The protocol, not the bit of software which implements it.

  41. Military Lessons - Hard Learned. by sr180 · · Score: 1
    Many thousands of Australian and New Zealand Troops died because of an 11 minute uncertainty between clocks in World War 1. Naval Bombardment of the Turkish Gallipoli Peninsula was scheduled over night, and then advancement by troops to commence immidiately after. However, because of the lack of synchronisation, the naval shelling finished 11 minutes early, allowing plenty of time for the Turkish troops to return into their bunkers and prepare for the oncoming invasion. Wave after wave of invading troops were simply mowed down by the heavily dug in defending forces.

    If the invasion had gone to plan, the invading troops would have hit the bunkers before the Turkish troops and the invasion would have gone completely differently.

    --
    In Soviet Russia the insensitive clod is YOU!
    1. Re:Military Lessons - Hard Learned. by MichaelSmith · · Score: 1
      If the invasion had gone to plan, the invading troops would have hit the bunkers before the Turkish troops and the invasion would have gone completely differently.

      And we would not have that annual holiday.

  42. Never use two NTP sources! by Terje+Mathisen · · Score: 3, Informative

    First, my credentials: I've been working with NTP for more than 10 years, my personal web server, which you can find via http://www.ntp.org/ (I won't link directly to try to avoid the /. effect.) have hosted windows binaries of the official NTP distribution for some years now.

    Since the original article didn't mention this, I would like to warn NTP users against ever configuring two servers! The reason is that NTP by design requires a plurality of all sources to agree on what the time is, before it will believe any of them.

    This means that if you have two sources that disagree slightly, you can relatively easily get into a situation where your local machine decides to distrust both and simply start drifting away. I have actually seen this happen multiple times.

    This means that you need to configure either a single or at least three servers, and if you want fault tolerance you actually need four, since that will leave three even when one of them fails.

    Terje

    --
    "almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"
  43. plane departures? by shish · · Score: 1
    nearly every activity requires synchronized time to operate at peak levels, from plane departures...

    It's so important that a computer be millisecond accurate, so they can choose *exactly* the right moment to tell the control tower guy to radio the pilot, and tell him to start moving? Doesn't the human factor /way/ overshadow any errors from computers being even an entire second off?

    --
    I mod down anyone who says "I will be modded down for this", regardless of the rest of their comment
    1. Re:plane departures? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ummm
      Why do you feel the need to comment on something you know FA about?

      Instrument Landing System

    2. Re:plane departures? by igb · · Score: 1
      My experience is that (a) keeping clocks aligned to each other and to UTC is easier than keeping them aligned to each other without reference to UTC and (b) keeping clocks aligned to a few milliseconds is easier than keeping them aligned to a second.

      ian

    3. Re:plane departures? by shish · · Score: 1
      Why do you feel the need to comment on something you know FA about?

      See the question mark at the end of my sentance? That turns my sentance into a question. If you look carefully, you'll notice you've used one too! When someone uses a question sentance (or "asks a question"), it means they acknowledge that they don't have all the relevant information, and they're asking for more. That, good sir, is why I made a comment on something I know FA about :-)

      --
      I mod down anyone who says "I will be modded down for this", regardless of the rest of their comment
  44. Les Temps by supersnail · · Score: 1

    If UTC is a French term shouldnt the lunchhour does not contain 9,000 seconds?

    --
    Old COBOL programmers never die. They just code in C.
  45. Not GNU and other Implementations by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    The NTP reference implementation, by Mills, et. al. is not GNU, nor is it GPL. It is a BSD like license. Further, it is not a product of the GNU project, but has been moved to the ISC. You can find the copyright/license here.

    There is also an OpenNTPD implementation, from the OpenBSD project. While early versions were considered harmful by the NTP community, I believe it is now accepted.

    For Windows clients, I use Tardis.

  46. Time, time and more time by spaceyhackerlady · · Score: 1
    This isn't my field of study, but I believe the second is defined as a certain number of oscillations between two hyperfine levels of the cesium-133 atom. This was done in the late sixties to get the definition of the second away from earth rotations and tie it to something more reliable and easy to measure.

    It is. But depending on the application, there are several different time scales. A few off the top of my head:

    Most people who measure things time-related need a time scale that runs at a constant rate. UTC, derived from vibrating atoms, is the way to go. Time was originally derived from Earth's rotation, but since it wobbles around so much, we use more accurate time sources now.

    People who do things like navigation need time that is synchronized to Earth's rotation. This is the application of stuff like UT1, which is derived from UTC, but is measured and adjusted to track Earth's rotation very precisely. The double ticks at the top of the minute on WWV are the current UTC-UT1 offset, in 100 millisecond increments.

    People who play with things in space need a time scale that runs at a constant rate, but is aware of relativistic effects. This is Dynamical Time, currently about 65 seconds off UTC. Instead of leap seconds these space folks just keep track of the offset, called delta T. Among other things, predictions of eclipses and planet positions work in Dynamical Time.

    ...laura

  47. The Earth's orbit is in direct proportion to... by macdaddy · · Score: 1

    ...Oprah's weight. Didn't you get the memo?

    1. Re:The Earth's orbit is in direct proportion to... by macdaddy · · Score: 1

      BTW, please substitute rotation for orbit. Thx

  48. "IP" shorthand for "IP Address", dumbass by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Apparently everyone except you understands the shorthand "IP" to refer to "IP Address" in this context. So think for a sec before flaming.

  49. That's just plain retarded. Why kind of security issue is the protocol going to have? And the guy wrote xntpd, not the ntp protocol. It would make no sense for him to be proud that an incredibly simple protocol that he had nothing to do with has had no security problems. Unfortunately, it also makes no sense for him to be proud of the security record of the ntp software he wrote, since it is complete and utter shit.

  50. Two words by p3d0 · · Score: 1
    --
    Patrick Doyle
    I mod down every jackass who puts his moderation policy in his sig. Oh, wait a sec....
  51. Uh... by p3d0 · · Score: 1

    Because NTP is free?

    --
    Patrick Doyle
    I mod down every jackass who puts his moderation policy in his sig. Oh, wait a sec....
  52. I just want to know... by WgT2 · · Score: 1

    Does it explain why some servers, both claiming or seeming to use authoritative time sources, are off by as much as two minutes?

  53. Da Vinci Code Quest by chem+girl · · Score: 1

    Sounds like something Google and Sony could have used for the Da Vinci code Quest! I'd say there are thousands of people out there all comparing "times" they finished the last puzzle. Really what matters is the time stamp given in Google world, and who knows if they all use the same watch. ;)

  54. Time stamp counter by mrcaseyj · · Score: 1
    Have you considered the pentium RDTSC instruction. It's called the time stamp counter but it's actually a clock cycle counter. The latency on this call may be several hundred or several thousand cycles, but that will usually get you to within a microsecond. You've got to watch out for modern cpus that change their clock frequency to save power though. I'll post this source because the source I found on the net didn't work without some tinkering. Compiled with gcc this works under linux and openbsd. The Visual C++ version is probably a little different but I've seen code for it too. The following code just prints out the number of cycles since the last CPU reset.
    // Print value of Pentium TimeStamp Counter
    // 2006/03/15
    #include <stdio.h>
    #include <stdint.h>
     
    inline volatile uint64_t RDTSC(void) {
     
      uint64_t tsc;
        __asm__ volatile (".byte 0x0f, 0x31" : "=A" (tsc));
      return(tsc);
    }
     
    int main() {
     
      uint64_t tsctemp = RDTSC();
      printf("%llu \n", tsctemp );
    }
    1. Re:Time stamp counter by Circuit+Breaker · · Score: 1

      What I'm interested in is millisecond accurate *time of day*, or at least one that's properly synchronized across a group of machines sitting in the same LAN.

      Windows offers ~5 different timers, with resolution ranging from ~10^-8 to 10^-1, but they are useless when comparing events on _different_ machines along the network, as each of these timers has, on each machine, a totally different origin, and a slightly different rate.

      It's possible to compensate for these, and ntpd/xntpd on Linux and FreeBSD does that perfectly well. Windows does not, because of some kernel implementation issue.

      I'm not expecting Windows or Linux to be a real-time system. I just expect time-keeping to be reasonably dependable, which on Linux it is and on Windows it isn't.

    2. Re:Time stamp counter by mrcaseyj · · Score: 1

      Yes, I suspected that you might be interested in realtime not cycles, but since you mentioned creating a network app to synchronize your windows boxes, I thought you might be interested in applying an offset and scaling to the cycle counter to get realtime. Your custom network daemon could determine the scaling and offset. Other apps on the machine could get realtime or the scaling factor from the daemon. Of course that doesn't help apps that you can't or don't want to rewrite. Your daemon may be able to discipline the system clock. If precise disciplining isn't possible or practical, it may be sufficient for the daemon to simply record the offset periodically so that at least you can calculate the true time of timestamps after the fact. Of course this may all be two much trouble. Although I don't use Windows, my OpenBSD systems also lack the precise kernel time discipline of Linux and FreeBSD, so I feel your pain.