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Two-Tier Internet & The End of Freedom of Speech

Max Fomitchev writes "The proposed Two-Tier Internet bill threatens not only to raise prices on goods and services served online but also to seriously hamper free speech on Internet by allowing telecom providers choking user pages and blogs not associated with major content providers. What a perfect way of censorship..."

66 of 364 comments (clear)

  1. Backwards into time... by beheaderaswp · · Score: 5, Insightful

    QUOTE:
    "While Net Neutrality bill sounds like overkill, two-tier Internet bill is ought to be stopped too. If it passes freedom of speech would be seriously hampered, startups and small businesses will take a hit and we will pay higher prices for online advertising as well as goods and services delivered or sold over Internet. Do we really want that? I think not."

    His conclusions in the article are dead on correct. Though I disagree with his opinion on net-neutrality.

    The beauty of the internet, in my opinion, is it's ability to link people together while allowing an even playing field for small business. These have been the greatest social and economic impact points of the new technology era. Sadly, once it becomes tiered it also becomes discriminatory based on economic factors.

    Sure, your blog can be seen, but if it get's too popular you'll have to pay more...

    Sure, you can start a small business, but if it get's too busy you'll have to pay more...

    The idea that no one "owns" the net itself should be inviolate. I already am charged for the bandwidth that comes off my servers because of the cost incurred by my ISP for upstream bandwidth.

    A tiered internet would be the same as keeping the peasants out of libraries. It's a huge step *backwards*.

    --
    Another consultant who stuck it out.

    "We are the Priests, of the Temples of Syrinx..."
    1. Re:Backwards into time... by RingDev · · Score: 4, Informative

      "Sure, your blog can be seen, but if it get's too popular you'll have to pay more...
      Sure, you can start a small business, but if it get's too busy you'll have to pay more..."

      Incorrect, that is how it works now. With tiered services it would be:

      Sure, your blog can be seen, but at a slower rate. If you want it to continue to perform at it's current rate or better, you need to pay more...

      Sure, you can start a small business, but your services will be slower. If you want a better QoS you need to pay more...

      The problem with teiring is that it doesn't actually fix any problem. If every company in the world signed up with every teiring opperator, we would still have the same limitations we have right now with a higher price tag for content providers and consumers. The other problem is that ANY non-teired provider will kill your higher teired service. So theoretically, not only will you have to pay the extortion fee to AT&T/SBC and the other back bone providers, you'll also need to pay the fee to all the local ISPs, dial ups, cable/DSL services, WiFi providers etc...

      -Rick

      --
      "Most people in the U.S. wouldn't know they live in a tyrannical state if it walked up and grabbed their junk." - MyFirs
    2. Re:Backwards into time... by binarstu · · Score: 2, Interesting

      A tiered internet would be the same as keeping the peasants out of libraries. It's a huge step *backwards*. I'm not quite sure about your analogy. Under a two-tiered Internet, the content providers pay extra, not the "peasants" who are merely browsing in the "library." In other words, you have to have more resources to publish information, which is how existing print media has always worked.

    3. Re:Backwards into time... by colinrichardday · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yes, but people aren't complaining about paying for more service from their own providers, they're worried about having to pay other providers so to not be choked off.

    4. Re:Backwards into time... by artjermyn · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Under a two-tiered Internet, the content providers pay extra, not the "peasants" who are merely browsing in the "library."

      Nope. The "peasants" will pay more. It will cost more to push the information out to the peasants, so the "peasants" will pay more by increased cost for the products or a reduction in information/services.
    5. Re:Backwards into time... by uglyduckling · · Score: 4, Insightful
      I am gung-ho about net neutrality, but how is what you just said any different than how things work now? I host my blog off of my 384Kbps-upload DSL. If my blog all of a sudden gets 4000 visitors per day, and I want all of them to be able to see it, I'll currently have to pay more to move it to a datacenter or get a better Internet connection, correct?

      Read the article. The proposal is that the big ISPs will have two tiers/channels/whatever, one that is high speed and only available to paying customers, and the other for everybody else. Note that the paying customers not only pay for their hosting and bandwidth, but also pay the ISP serving the broadband/cable/cell connection to the end user for the right to have their content served over the faster channel.

      Presumably the idea of getting 'too popular' is that the ISPs would not only have the option of limiting bandwidth in the last mile to each individual subscriber, but also ISPs may have limited bandwidth across the whole network allocated e.g. by IP block, effectively slowing access to that server down as it becomes more popular, which would obviously cause a drop in popularity/revenue for the online business providing content. At the moment the bottleneck would be with their own hosting, for which they would have to pay for more transfer (GB/month) and a faster pipe (GB/sec). If these proposals are successful they may also have to pay one or more ISPs to be put on the faster pipe through their network and at the subscriber end so that the end users can access the service at an acceptable speed.

      The nasty side of this is that, again presumably, the ISPs would allocate a reasonable bandwidth to non-fasttrack traffic so that end users don't notice a slowdown in less popular, niche websites, otherwise customers would complain that 'the whole internet is slow'. The big players would naturally pay up immediately, so it's only the middle group who are too popular for their own good who would be stuck.

    6. Re:Backwards into time... by GuyverDH · · Score: 5, Informative

      Don't forget the fact that if for some reason, your packets get routed to some other carriers network (ie cable cut, dug up, etc..) , that *extra* extortion money that you paid to get your packets there at a high rate of speed, are now secondary to this carrier that didn't get it's payola.

      That's the biggest thing that the two tiered internet folks are forgetting...

      With all the different networks, owned and operated by different companies, sometime, somewhere, packets flow through at least 2, if not 3, 4 or more different networks, before it reaches you.

      So, instead of paying for
      #1 Connection (your's to the ISP)
      #2 Content (in the way of service charge payable to provider)
      #3 Payola1 (don't want those packets gettin' hurt while on our network)
      #4 Payola2 (don't want those packets gettin' hurt while on our network)
      #5 Payola3 (don't want those packets gettin' hurt while on our network)
      #6 Payola4 (don't want those packets gettin' hurt while on our network)
      etc....

      --
      Who is general failure, and why is he reading my hard drive?
    7. Re:Backwards into time... by thule · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The idea that no one "owns" the net itself should be inviolate. I already am charged for the bandwidth that comes off my servers because of the cost incurred by my ISP for upstream bandwidth. ... and the big guys don't pay for all their bandwidth either. I'm surprised that no one on slashdot brings up peering. Yahoo apparently only pays for half of it's bandwidth. The other half of their bandwidth requirements flow over direct peering links to ISP's. Is this unfair? It saves the ISP money and the content provider money. Plus they get a short-cut -- lower latency, less hops. My gosh, that seems like an unfair advantage! Do you get free bandwidth for your servers?

      Another thing is that I imagine that colo companies may pay for tiering and advertise that to their customers. This would allow any old blog to get special handling at a large colo.

      It seems to me that very few people have actually thought more than two steps ahead on the economics of a tiered Internet. Personally, I would be interested to see how the marketplace would work out. I suspect it will not be like the FUD says it will be.

    8. Re:Backwards into time... by uglyduckling · · Score: 4, Informative
      Sorry - but here's the way it works. Your ISP says "We're going to a two-tier network and we're going to give you the option to get a better tier."

      We say "go eat dirt" (or something analagous) and find another ISP. Been there, done that.

      No...no... listen:- You're running a relatively popular website, say an e-commerce site, not up there with the big boys like Amazon but you're making money and you've given up your day job. The ISP providing connectivity for millions of users (say AOL) says "we're going to a two-tier network and we're going to give you the option to get a better tier." You can't find another ISP because it's not your ISP - it's your customer's ISP who's allocated so much bandwidth to your block of IPs and you won't get anymore unless you pay up.

      Your options will be to pay up, or put up with the fact that millions of your customers find your website is ridiculously slow. As less people use your website it will speed up again, but your customers and potential customers have gone back to Amazon and have taken your site of their bookmarks list. Getting a better rack server or changing ISPs won't help because the artificial bottleneck is elsewhere and outside of your control unless you pay to move onto the priority tier.

    9. Re:Backwards into time... by Panaflex · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What happens then is that the "rest of the world" creates their own, free akamai clone and essentially "works around the problem."

      Technically, my own POV is that it would be impossible to manage a real tiered internet. The memory required on the routers would be a death-blow.

      My point is that this isn't about little guys (or even big companies like the ones I've worked at).

      This is about telephone and TV. This is about killing the phoenix and wearing the feathers.

      Pan

      --
      I said no... but I missed and it came out yes.
    10. Re:Backwards into time... by Professor_UNIX · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Do you realize how ridiculously complicated such a system would be to maintain from a network engineering point of view? That alone would be a stumbling block any "evil" ISP would have to overcome before they even though about charging individual web sites separate "protection" fees for their traffic to get priority. Don't get me wrong, I am pro-network-neutrality, but I can't see them ever rolling out a two-tiered internet in the first place.

    11. Re:Backwards into time... by SillyNickName4me · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Isn't that the case right now? Bandwidth isn't free. If your site gets too popular, you have to pay more.

      Yes, I have to get a bigger pipe and so pay more to my hosting provider.

      Now a few questions..

      - How many ISPs are there on this planet?
      - Which of them service one or more of your customers?

      And consequentely:

      - How many ISPs do you have to pay for getting 'fast' service?

      I'll leave it to your own interlect to figure out why exactly this idea is unworkable for any medium/small company, regardless of what the exact fees are.

    12. Re:Backwards into time... by Moofie · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Thank you, Marie Antoinette!

      --
      Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
  2. REDACTED by Stanistani · · Score: 5, Funny

    REDACTED

    This content is not on your Premium Plan.

    1. Re:REDACTED by 'nother+poster · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Don't you mean "Sorry, Your IP isnot on your content providers basic subscribers plan. Please urge them to upgrade to the Premium Plus package to be able to serve content to you OUR customer."

    2. Re:REDACTED by CRC'99 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      This strikes a good note with me at the moment... There's a fault with a section of the Southern Cross data cable that connects Australia to the US. This means it currently has limited access. Suddenly, my ISP lost *all* international connectivity. Interestingly enough, when I use a proxy of my ISPs upstream provider, I can get through to international sites.

      This makes me think that there is already a two-tier internet - as this case obviously demonstrates. It seems that their wholesale traffic/customers aren't as important as its own. Nice way to wipe out tens of thousands of users off a network.

      Food for thought.

      --
      Sendmail is like emacs: A nice operating system, but missing an editor and a MTA.
    3. Re:REDACTED by Kadin2048 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Improper use of the word redact. I'm assuming you got this word from the recent The Office episode where the employees could retract their complaints by "redacting" them. The word redact actually has very little to do with deleting or removing content. The definition is more like "edit" and relates to written publications: "to select or adapt for publication."

      I basically assumed he was taking a jab at the use of "redacted" that's been seen fairly frequently in the media lately: to sanitize or censor a document prior to publication or distribution.

      This is a pretty standard term when working with (U.S., anyway) government documents, and its usage certainly predates the Office episode.

      Given that usage I don't think it's too much of a misuse in the GP's comment.

      Ref:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redaction

      --
      "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
  3. Enough of the Editorializing Already by Illbay · · Score: 4, Insightful
    We seem to have a "new class" of "article" light on content, and heavy on the ranting.

    Only the government can "censor" anyone. ISPs routinely "censor" content, and have no restrictions on doing so.

    Remember: Your right to "free speech" does NOT come with a corresponding right to be heard.

    Else why don't I have my own late-night talk show on a major network?

    --
    Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
    1. Re:Enough of the Editorializing Already by eln · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Editorializing in Slashdot articles is new? That cave you've been living in all this time must have been cramped.

      The very concept of the two-tiered Internet destroys what the Internet has been for years, which is a tool for global collaboration. With a two-tiered Internet, the entire multi-billion-dollar network basically just becomes a vehicle to serve corporate advertising to the plebes, as the "lower tier" sites become slow and unreliable.

      This is nothing but a money grab by access providers that will blow up in their faces. Most people use the Internet for social networking these days, and if those sites either essentially get shut down (by being part of the crappy lower tier) or are forced to charge users (because they have to pay exorbitant access charges to get on the upper tier), many people will simply drop offline, which will end up hurting these access providers in the long run.

      Content neutrality among backbone providers must be maintained in order for the Internet to continue to be useful to the public. Segmentation will kill the Internet.

    2. Re:Enough of the Editorializing Already by Tackhead · · Score: 4, Funny
      > Remember: Your right to "free speech" does NOT come with a corresponding right to be heard.

      Yes it does -- every human being on the planet has a right to be heard every time they speak. Not just Americans! Every human being on the planet has this right.

      NSA is out there, burning billions of dollars and quadrillions of exaflops of computing power, all in a valiant effort to defend your right to be heard. And you just knock 'em off like that. Such ingratitude!

    3. Re:Enough of the Editorializing Already by Cormacus · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yes, you are correct.

      However, I think the point is that the Internet started out with the liberating quality that it encorporated both the "right to free speech" _and_ the "right to be heard." You don't have your own late-night talk show on a major network because you can't write up one of those in vi beginning with "" and ending with "."

      It's this very quality that people are seeking to preserve when they rail against tiered internet plans. Not to mention the fact that these plans appear to be based on charging the consumer _twice_ for the same information.

      --
      Mon chien, il n'a pas du nez. Comment scent-il? TrÃs mauvais!
    4. Re:Enough of the Editorializing Already by Overzeetop · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Of course not, that would be silly. What the government is saying is that Verizon can stand at the door and take money from the organization to allow you in, as well as charge the guests a ticket fee. The government just happens to get a kickback - oh, excuse me, tax - on that revenue. ;-)

      --
      Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
    5. Re:Enough of the Editorializing Already by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Only the government can "censor" anyone. ISPs routinely "censor" content, and have no restrictions on doing so.

      You're mistaken. The government and agents acting on their behalf can censor. ISPs are not just private companies. They are private companies subsidized by taxpayer dollars, granted special immunity for breaking certain laws, and who are granted monopolies in geographical regions enforced by the government using the police.

      In most localities only one phone and one cable company are granted the right to run lines to your house through the public right of ways upon which the telephone poles and underground cables are placed. The police stop anyone else from doing so, thus limiting you to only one or two possible ISPs. Thus the government is censoring you if those companies do, by denying you the option of going with another provider supplied by the free market.

      ISPs are granted special privileges for acting as impartial carriers of data. They are not prosecuted, despite the fact that they violate copyright law, transfer child pornography, publish libel, publish trade secrets, publish threats, etc. This is because they just impartially move data for the good of the country (acting as agents of the government) and are thus not responsible for what data they move. Now, however, they want to take responsibility for what data they are moving in order to extort money from those who are more reliant upon them. I think they should be allowed to do so, just as soon as anyone can string last mile wire and as soon as they lose their common carrier immunities.

      The government employing a private company, granted special privileges, and whose competition is arrested by the police is not a legal way for the government to do an end-run around the constitution. ISPs are clearly acting as government agencies and as such are subject to constitutional limitations.

  4. Corporate Censorship by Shadow+Wrought · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Since many a blogger rails hardest against corporations and their associated ilk, it makes sense for them tot ry and limit it. What is in the interest of business is a society whose information comes from marketers.

    --
    If brevity is the soul of wit, then how does one explain Twitter?
  5. And in other news... by gowen · · Score: 2, Funny

    Blogger with crap beard rants incoherently about Freedom.

    Film at 11.

    --
    Athletic Scholarships to universities make as much sense as academic scholarships to sports teams.
  6. Two steps to anarchy by packetmon · · Score: 2, Interesting

    telcos argue that they want to curb proliferation of online video and other types of data-hungry streaming that allegedly taxes their networks they think imposing traffic fees on content providers would be a fair solution. So ISP's (not TELCO's since not all ISP's are necessarily TELCO's) want to impose sort of a private highway fee for passing bandwidth through their networks... Its surprising to see which one of these clowns will be the first to stick it to the next one. Since all networks rely on another one to pass their information through their pipes (peering), I wonder how long before one de-peers with another and breaks the Internet again (see: Who broke *.org).

    I wonder what idiotic government officials while having their pockets greased will do their emails no longer come in but instead they receive a hostage notification from their provider: Dear Mr. President, under subsection 1(a)(b)(c)(d)(e) of the Draconian Telecommunications Act, we cannot deliver today's messages. Please pay the sum of a) bandwidth b) tax fees c) attorney fees d) greaser fees in order to release your messages.

  7. To Network Neutrality Opponents: by Dachannien · · Score: 4, Insightful

    There are quite a few people out there - not just representatives of the telecommunications industry - under the impression that "Government Intervention Is Bad", hence we should all oppose network neutrality legislation. But this bill underscores the fact that government intervention by itself isn't necessarily bad - it's how government intervenes that determines whether the right or wrong thing is being done.

    So let's all drop this nonsense about claiming that the government shouldn't be intervening in how the Internet works, and get back to the core of the matter - which is whether the telecommunications industry should be allowed to leverage its oligopoly position in the broadband ISP market to extract profit from content providers that don't even connect to them directly, and whether the industry should be allowed to discriminate based on traffic type and content, rather than pricing by bandwidth consumption alone.

    1. Re:To Network Neutrality Opponents: by packetmon · · Score: 2, Interesting

      whether the industry should be allowed to discriminate based on traffic type and content, rather than pricing by bandwidth consumption alone. There is nothing written that states a provider has to pass traffic for another. Providers with their peering agreements agree to pass X through their networks as a means of allowing their traffic to traverse a competitors. While I see their arguments for bandwidth consumption when it becomes extreme, I see this as a ploy to eliminate competition and charge higher prices. Its not a matter of discriminating someone's views or content from my inference but more of a "how can we profit". What people should do is get together for a month long protest against these telco's... Place high content bandwidth consuming content on their sites... Waste time and money call up customer service to complain... Waste resources sending emails complaining both to officials and the providers... Call and speak to billing departments expressing concerns (more wasted money for the providers)... Threaten to jump to X Provider... Post the results for someone to analyze and do it all again. Hit em where it hurts.

    2. Re:To Network Neutrality Opponents: by shreak · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I agree that we don't need a net neutrality law but it's not as straight forward as you state it.

      The ISPs bought their equipment with their money, yes?
      Yes... mostly
      Why should they not run their equipment how they choose
      It's where they put that equipment that fuzzes the issue. The old school telco's also were allowed to run cables through public right of way, i.e. land that belongs to you and me. They were not charged for this, the cable is still there and is still used.

      Also, part of your phone bill is required to go towards the cost of providing phone service to rural areas where it's not as profitable (thus probably wouldn't get any service at all.)

      This is arguably a tax, thus making it public funds. Therefore part of the equipment in use is paid for my you and me.

      I think a big part of the problem is access (cable, towers, etc...) is bundled with service (phone switches, ISP equipment,etc...)

      If access were separate from service then we could pay for bytes from any service. Pay my access provider (perhaps my municipality or local coop) and have hookups with multiple services (ISP,phone,cable...) and pay for what I want.

      =Shreak

  8. U.S. PEOPLE ! BLOW YOUR CONGRESSMANS' EAR OFF !! by unity100 · · Score: 2

    Put the fear of god in them. Do not let them take this lightly. For this is YOUR ass on the plate.

  9. From the article by Corbets · · Score: 2, Funny

    Unless you have not heard, Verizon, AT&T, Bell South and other telecommunications giants are lobbying Congress to establish a legal basis for charging website owners for traffic with the help of two-tier Internet.

    Sweet. So as long as we haven't heard about it, they're not actually doing it??? Then WTH is Slashdot doing, posting this crap and ruining the Internet for all of us?

  10. Two Questions by Thunderstruck · · Score: 2, Interesting

    1. From a "free speech" point of view, how is this any different than than your local newspaper's editorial policy? Some newspapers just won't print some kinds of content, even if the author is willing to pay for the service.

    2. Does this form of content limitation take away any of the rights you had before the dawn of email? Back in the day, we wrote pen & paper letters because it was the only option. Today, although letters are (probably) more secure, because they are not subject to the kind of keyword data mining that can be conducted on electronic communications, we seem stuck on email. Do we need to be?

    --
    Trying to use sarcasm in text-based forums does not work.
    1. Re:Two Questions by Lysander+Luddite · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I believe that if you see the Internet as a public space that all have equal access to, your questions are answered.

      In a public space one isn't charged to state an opinion. Other visitors to that space aren't obliged to listen to that opinion, yet the economic and political freedom to speak one's mind exists.

      Removing Net Neutrality really amounts to privatizing the Internet. Just as one can be chased out of a private space like a shopping mall because the ownership doesn't want one there, so can network owners discriminate against those it chooses.

      Admittedly, this is simplistic, but the Internet transcends physical space while at the same time has characterisitics of it.

    2. Re:Two Questions by Haeleth · · Score: 2, Insightful

      1. From a "free speech" point of view, how is this any different than than your local newspaper's editorial policy? Some newspapers just won't print some kinds of content, even if the author is willing to pay for the service.

      Does your local newspaper prevent you from subscribing to a different newspaper? No? Then that's the difference: it's trivial to switch newspapers, but it's very difficult to switch ISPs, particularly if you live in one of the many parts of the world where there is practically no competition.

      2. Does this form of content limitation take away any of the rights you had before the dawn of email?

      Of course not. Nor would banning cars take away any of the rights you had before the invention of the automobile, but if the government introduced a bill to ban cars, would you sit back and tell everyone to suck it up because "back in the day, we drove around in horse-drawn carriages"? Somehow I doubt it.

      The mere fact that a technology only became ubiquitous recently does not automatically mean that people have no right to expect to be able to rely on it.

    3. Re:Two Questions by Lysander+Luddite · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The wires and machines are the medium that the messages are conveyed. Think of them as air. One cannot claim ownership of the air as a private right unless it has been granted a monopoly by the government (in the US usually the FCC). If one could then airlines and satellite TV signals would have to be be nogoitated on an individual level.

      The Internet was built with US public tax dollars. Most of the private carriers you mention are regulated (phone companies and cable companies). ISPs themselves rarely own the wires, they're owned by cable or phone companies. They are often third parties, although in the US broadband ISPs are usually phone or cable companies thanks to US regulations of open access to wires being thrown out.

      If one thinks of the Internet as a system, public infrastructure or utility then one can understand many (but not all!) of the characterstics of the Internet. Those entities are regulated for the good of all citizens and participants.

      The phone and cable companies want to frame this issue as one of private ownership. The Internet must remain as a space that is not owned by any one industry or consortium of iindustries. Doing so will eliminate meritocracy for all groups be they political, economic, or social in nature.

      Off topic, but in the US phone companies were deregulated in the 90s and allowed to compete in the long distance marketplace. The phone companies promised to build out their networks yet they reneged on that promise. There is plenty of "dark fiber" in the major networks and backbones, but the real profit area is "the last mile" which is where broadband customers are most vulnerable.

      I see no reason to trust phone and cable companies when they spend millions of dollars on advertising trying to frame this debate as one of regulation of private property. History shows that neither industry serves the best interests of their customers, but of their shareholders and executives.

  11. What about international users? by Pranjal · · Score: 5, Insightful

    What happens if I happen to access a US server? Will my ISP be charged extra for the services offered by the website? If yes I think all US centric websites are screwed. The content will just move to international waters like most US MNC's who are incorporated in tax free zones. The internet does not revolve around the US you know.

  12. Moving to China by wjcofkc · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Is it just me, or does communist China have a better grip on the overall "issue" of controlling the internet than the Democratic Peoples Republic of The United Sta....Errr I mean the USA.

    I really wish the government could just let well enough alone instead of completely fucking up the economy by way of fucking up the internet.

    --
    Brought to you by Carl's Junior.
  13. who owns the internet? by briancnorton · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Why is it assumed that the internet is the common property of all mankind? Certainly the infrastructure owned by governments around the world is held to one standard, but why do we assume that verizon, quest, etc somehow "owe" us? The internet is a commercial entity. Laying all that fiber was paid for (mostly) by companies expecting a reasonable ROI. The way to voice your opinion is with your wallet. Cancel your service.

    --

    People who think they know everything really piss off those of us that actually do.

  14. Re:The difference? by ScentCone · · Score: 4, Insightful

    So with this what's the difference between the USA and China? We are supposed to have Freedom of Speech, but I guess not.

    The difference is that in China, you've got the central government blocking/filtering (and arresting/jailing) based on the content of the communication. What you say triggers their actions.

    In the case being discussed, the content of your blog (your speech) or the content of some streaming media spooling off of a small company's server (as opposed to, say, AOL's or Google's) have nothing to do with it. Censorship isn't even part of the discussion. What's being talked about is who pays for the bandwidth being used. That's it. Period. If Google wants to make billions of dollars by being the go-to search engine for millions of Verizon's customers, then Verizon has every reason to place a premium on that gigantic peering arrangement.

    If a little mom-and-pop web site starts getting a ton of traffic from a Slashdotting, do you really think that their monthly costs don't go up? Who should pay for that... the ISP providing their pipe? How are they causing the Slashdotting? But it's the ISP's resources that have to suddently carry all of that traffic, and that comes at the expense of other capacity. This isn't about censorship, it's about the economic realities of the fact that huge IP pipes aren't a natural occuring resource - they're mostly built and run by private companies. You can talk all you want, about anything you want. But why should you be able to dictate to some other ISP how much of your traffic they should have to carry, and at what price?

    If you don't like the price they charge, you change carriers. If you don't like any of the prices available (meaning, you don't like the market), then become your own carrier (and see just how willing you are to maintain an artificial pricing scheme when "one way" traffic on certain peering connections account for the vast majority of your day's work and financial costs).

    --
    Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
  15. Re:Higher prices? by dnixon112 · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Assuming that you're in a free market economy


    See that's where you're assuming wrong. The ISP market is not competitive and free. It's an oligopaly. The only choice customers will have is to either get broadband or not.
  16. Net Neutrality Law = Unneccesary & Bad Idea by fortinbras47 · · Score: 2, Insightful
    All kinds of people are coming out with these parade of hypothetical horribles, but WHERE IS THE CURRENT PROBLEM??!?

    I don't know about you, but I am HIGHLY suspicious of the government's ability to do anything sensical when it comes to technology, and I can think of nothing worse than a law being passed to correct some theoretical problem that DOESN'T CURRENTLY EXIST and might never exist.

    What would happen if Congress tried to pass some Net Neutrality Law? Since there isn't any kind of ACTUAL problem now, I'm sure the bill would undoubtedly screw stuff up through the law of unintended consequences.

    Congress would insert all kinds of special provisions that would benefit some group at the expense of others, all kinds of new technology would become illegal, and lawsuits would proliferate. Who knows what would happen, the point is that when congress acts on technology (eg. the DMCA) they are likely to create a huge mess and things better be PRETTY DAMN bad before Congress can do more good than harm.

  17. I look forward to killing you. by Wellington+Grey · · Score: 2, Interesting

    That's it. I'm sending in the ninjas.

    -Grey

  18. Re:The difference? by RingDev · · Score: 3, Insightful

    This isn't about price per volume. The NN legislation (SFAIK) does not limit a provider's ability to charge what ever they like for volume. The legislation is designed to prevent the re-ordering of packets based on a tiered service plan.

    For example, I get 75gigs of transfer on my site for $15/month. For every 5gig block above that I have to cough up another $5. So if I transfer 4 gigs, it's $15. 60 gigs, still $15. 100 gigs, $40. 500 gigs, $440.

    For example, the NN legislation would prevent my provider from saying that in addition to my bandwidth costs I would have to pay $25/month for a 'QoS' guarantee or face 10% more timeouts for my customers and 150% page load times.

    -Rick

    --
    "Most people in the U.S. wouldn't know they live in a tyrannical state if it walked up and grabbed their junk." - MyFirs
  19. Charging content providers twice by NetSettler · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I've got to say, I have trouble with charging content providers even once, so I completely agree with this criticism of the proposed "revenue enhancing" technologys for the megacorps.

    I used to post commentary to Salon's TableTalk until they changed their revenue policy to charge people who posted stuff for the right to post. People who posted stuff? They're a magazine. It seems absurd to charge writers but not subscribers. So I left. Obviously it didn't bring the empire down, but my point was to say "look, I'm not going to pay two ways: one by providing content and another by providing money to have that content delivered". People come to the site to read posts, and they charge advertisers for that. Getting readers is enough payment for me.

    Similarly here, I think it's amazing that if you have a web site that is full of content, the internet has no mechanism to make sure you are economically rewarded. The promise of micropayments for having put up very elaborate sites full of information was never carried through because the big portal sites realized they could just take all that money for themselves--why pass it through? No one cares that it's my or your commentary that people are getting out of their browser. They just thank AOL or MSN or Google for finding it for them. And we who provide the myriad little details, blogs, maps, lists, and other things that make up the real fabric of the internet are not only not rewarded but are charged.

    So when you talk about double-charging for that privilege, not single-charging, at some point I have to say everyone should go read Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged , in which something very similar occurs, and what amount to "content providers" eventually say "enough is enough". Ayn Rand is controversial for her overall broad philosophy of Objectivism, which lots of people don't buy into wholesale. But I'm not advancing Objectivism here. I'm just saying the basic premise of the book, that sometimes enough is enough, is worth considering. The book is an interesting read regardless of your position on her larger scale philosophies.

    And I'm all for creating reasonable fees on the Internet. I just don't think authors and other content providers should be charged for doing so. That's the very definition of not reasonable. Sort of like having kids charge their parents for raising them. Or charging teachers for the privilege of teaching. If no one reads the content someone provides, the cost of that content approaches zero since it's just a few bytes on an unused disk. If lots of people read them, then by definition the content contributes a lot to the world, and the world should contribute by each consumer chipping in, not by each consumer contributing to the content provider's eventual bankruptcy (or in less severe cases just negatively contributing to their financial success).

    Also, I like Jesse Ventura's "government should do for people what they cannot do for themselves". The big portal companies are already capable of a great many sins; the mere presence of money enables that. What the law needs to protect are the individual content providers, who are not capable of protecting themselves because often they are denied (or made to work unreasonably hard for) any revenue stream from their efforts. If there's a need for a law, it's to protect the little guy, not to enable the big one.

    --

    Kent M Pitman
    Philosopher, Technologist, Writer

  20. Hyperbole by stlhawkeye · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Freedom of speech is violated when there are legal consequences from government for saying what you think. This is not that. We had freedom of speech before the internet even existed, I don't see how we're losing it with a tiered system. Don't misunderstand, I don't agree with or like the "tiered" internet approach, but this hyperbolic language about what is and is not a loss of basic human rights is not conductive to the debate. It trivializes TRUE abuses and suspensions of human rights, and clouds the issue in people's minds. When people don't understand what something is, they can't make intelligent decisions about it.

    --
    "I have never won a debate with an ignorant person." -Ali ibn Abi Talib
  21. EBay are fighting this by AnonymousJackass · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I got an email (genuine, not spam) from EBay this morning encouraging users to write to congress about this. It links you to this page: http://www.ebaymainstreet.com/takeaction/?campaign _id=neutrality1

  22. Paying for better service, and fighting back by phorm · · Score: 2, Interesting

    There's nothing wrong with paying more for better service, for example a connection to a bigger pipe. That being said, this isn't what's happening. Rather, it's that you would be forced to pay for a transit-party (between you, your own ISP, and the client connecting to your site) to not degrade the regular connection. The problem is, that the connection has already been paid for. On the end of the client... to their ISP by them. If they don't want to pay for a higher-speed connection, then with dial-up or low-speed they will get overall lower performance. Fair enough

    On your end, you have bandwidth and pipe limits imposed by your ISP. If you want more, you pay for the bigger package. Again, it depends on what service contract you choose.

    What should not happen, is that the client's ISP will bill you (after the client is already paying for service) not to choke off your access. This also applies to the midpoints in the connection, and somebody has already footed the bill.

    It's double-dipping, and it's extortion. It also strays far from the concept of an ISP being somewhat of a common carrier, and shows blatently that the can (and will abuse the ability to) monitor and/or restrict specific traffic.

    If this passes it will be a dark day for the internet indeed... but if it does my hopes are that the first ones to try it will be hammered so mercilessly (lost customers, complaints, legislation, and banner ads everywhere proclaiming to existing customers that their ISP is evil) that the idea will quickly lose it's appeal.


    That being said, perhaps we can create a master-pool of ISP's that use said service. In that case we could create something similiar to an anti-spam list wherein customers will get a memo stating "connections to this site will suffer extremely slowness and loss of quality because your ISP 'ASSHATINTERNETCO' is limiting your connection. Click here [link] for more information". I'd be happy to pop those up on my site, and it's easy enough with SHTML, etc.

    Anyone in?

  23. Let's examine the "freedom" claim by TonyXL · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The pro-freedom approach would be to let fiber owners (telcoms) charge whomever and whatever they want to use the lines that THEY OWN. If these telcos start charging content providers, the cost may be shifted to users, but new companies would start laying more fiber to grab some of the profits, and the increased competition would bring prices back down in the long run. Plus, there'd be a lot more line capacity out there, which would not happen with "net neutrality".

    If it were up to this guy, bookstores couldn't charge different prices for different books--that would amount to abridging "freedom to read" by his logic.

    Freedom of speech means you can speak freely. It DOES NOT mean that you are entitled to be provided with the means (internet, microphone, megaphone) to speak.

    Also: at the 3rd paragraph, this guy admits he's a socialist, so his credibility to talk about freedom is GONE.

  24. Re:Higher prices? by tinkerghost · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Um, buy a DVD lately. How about watch Comcast's on-demand - the 'free offerings' you pay for as part of your digital package ... yeah they added commercials to the start of them and I don't recall the price of either coming down.
    By the way, not once have I seen anything from a telco on 2 Tier internet where they are garaunteeing anything but best effort even if you pay. So technically, they can flag you high QoS priority at the peerpoint and ignore you after that. You pay them more, they give you a nifty flag on your packets that nobody sees.

  25. The Internet was developed at public expense! by Kyd_A · · Score: 2, Informative

    Let's not forget that the Internet, and computers in general, have all been developed almost exclusively at public expense for most of their lifetimes, and by all rights should remain in the public sector.

    "As Andrew L Shapiro, a contributing editor of the Nation, wrote in July, 1995: ``You probably didn't notice, but the Internet was sold a few months ago. Well, sort of. The US Federal Government has been gradually transferring the backbone of the US portion of the global computer network to companies such as IBM and MCI as part of a larger plan to privatize cyberspace. But the crucial step was taken on April 30, 1995, when the National Science Foundation shut down its part of the Internet, which began in the 1970s as a Defence Department communications tool. That left the corporate giants in charge....'' ...

    The telecommunication infrastructure was largely created at Government initiative for about 30 years, including both hardware and software, then handed over to private corporations in 1995. It is true that so-called `private' corporations (meaning, profit is privatized, though cost and risk are largely socialized) were often instrumental in R&D, but typically under Government contract. The basic ideas came from the public sector, as did the funding. That includes the Web, designed at CERN, but in the US the public contribution was overwhelming, as in the case of computers and electronics generally, in fact most of high tech. The system was run by the Pentagon, later the National Science Foundation (NSF). The real question should be the opposite: Why should private corporations be granted a huge gift by the public (which is unaware that it has done so)."

    http://www.hinduonnet.com/businessline/2000/07/25/ stories/14253975.htm

  26. Re:The difference? by jruesch · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Freedom of speech is freedom from the government controlling what is said. It is NOT freedom from all entities to control what is said in all situations. In fact a big part of freedom of speech is the freedom to do just that. A newspaper nor anyone else can not be forced to transmit speech by another. There is a big difference between China's government controlling speech and a US company choosing to to transmit speech by another.
    That being said, it is important for the internet to include access to all sites. Companies providing access should not make access content dependent except under extreem circumstances (Phishing, child porn, etc.) Internet providers should be required to provide access to all sites while individual sites should have the right to restrict speech as they see fit.

  27. Re:The devil's advocate case for the two-tier net by 'nother+poster · · Score: 5, Insightful

    In other words, let's say I send a phone call through Skype's servers. I'm not paying any more to my telco or cableco for them to do this. I'm just paying Skype and Skype is paying their own ISP, not my local ISP, even though my local ISP is carrying all the extra traffic load. This is especially galling for the Telco because this used to be revenue at $ 0.05 a minute and now it's not giving them one thin dime, even though they are providing the bandwidth for it to happen!

    You ARE paying your ISP for the bandwidth already. That's that monthly "unlimited access" fee you pay to your ISP. Skype is paying their ISP, and the person on the other end is paying their ISP, if it's an IP to IP call. Everyone is already being paid for moving IP packets. If you are moving too many packets over your ISP, they should charge you, not Skype. Your ISP knows you want to use Skype, but will leave and go to another ISP if they raise your rates, so they extort money from Skype to be allowed to provide you a service you are already paying your ISP for, moving IP packets from your address to another and vice versa.

  28. The New York Times has a version of this article by KarmaOverDogma · · Score: 3, Informative

    and here is the link:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/28/opinion/28sun3.h tml

    IMO, the New York Times says it better, but, hey, that's just me.

    --
    uR iGn0ranc3, Their Power
  29. Equalization Payments by oddRaisin · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "Net Neutrality" is an attempt by the Telcos to shift their problem to the backs of content providers and end users, leaving nothing but profit for them.

    Let's take an example. Verizon and Google seem to be popular. Let's say Google is hosted with AT&T. So now we have Verizon's customers using their bandwidth to access Google on AT&T's network, and not getting any money for it. This in and of itself is false. The customers pay for the access, and if they didn't use it for Google then they would use it elsewhere. Since AT&T is the funnel for the traffic from all other ISPs, they charge Google a large amount. It seems like everyone got their money -- AT&T from Google and Verizon from its customers.

    If there were an imbalance it would be up to the ISPs to negotiate between themselves. The content providers pay their bandwidth fees to provide the content and the users pay their fees to get access to everything any content provider (from blogs to Amazon) wish to offer.

    I had trouble coming up with an imbalance in this equation, but let's say that somehow the user's bandwidth usage to access Google's content drives Verizon's finances into the red, while AT&T is making a mint. In this case I would say that Verizon needs to negotiate some sort of equalization payment from AT&T that would sound like Verizon to AT&T: "Pay me some relief for all this traffic or I will block access to your network from mine".

    The advantage here is that the ISP's problem remains their problem, and doesn't move to any scapegoat(s). There is no tiered network, since the costs would be balanced on a monthly/quaterly/yearly/what-have-you basis.

  30. Re:The devil's advocate case for the two-tier net by Skreems · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If there is a two-tier Internet, where video and telephony applications are on the top tier and web sites, email and most other services are on the bottom, it really doesn't seem unfair to me. In fact, it might vastly improve the quality of the top-tier applications to the point where we would be a great deal happier with them than we are now. Surely this is not so bad?

    It's unfair because I already paid for a certain quality of service on my end, and for all the bandwidth I use. If the telcos are having problems filling their end of the contract, they should raise prices to meet their actual costs, not try to extort money from the people on the other end of the connection. When I signed up for an account, I did so with the assumption that I was paying more than enough to cover the bandwidth they promised me, and that I would receive any and all data I chose to request at equal speed (at least as far as they can control). They are now trying to break that contract by delivering data that I request at less bandwidth than I am paying them for, unless the guy on the other end pays protection money.

    --
    Slashdot needs a "-1, Wrong" moderation option.
    The Urban Hippie
  31. Re:Higher prices? by bomb_number_20 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The whole thing is really a tradeoff - lower prices for targeted, sponsored content. It's like TV - you can pay for commercial-free content, or be cheap about it and be forced to watch commercials.

    You're still getting gouged.

    Public memory is short. You may not remember this, but when cable TV was first introduced, the whole idea was that you were essentially paying for the privilege of not watching commercials. After all, cable was supported by you, the viewer, and not advertisers. They've since introduced premium channels. Now you pay to watch commercials on cable and pay for premium channels. Advertising is starting to slip in there as well.

    I see this as no different than the introduction of cable. Eventually, they will split it into an n-tier internet, with the highest level being the web equivalent of a premium channel. When they want to extort more money they will just add another tier.

    pig fuckers.

    --
    That's ok, Jesus likes me anyway.
  32. It's a cost-saver. by Runefox · · Score: 2, Funny

    Too many people on the net? Don't want to spend valuable time and money switching to IPv6? Tired of those pirating commies sucking up your bandwidth to download pornography? Then alienate your customers off the internet! Yes, that's right. With the new Two-Tier Internet bill, you can block whatever content you wish from the prying eyes of the paying public! Anti-Rogers sites, anti-Bell sites, all gone! And with fewer people on the internet, you won't even need IPv6! So long, comrade! This is America, the land of the free! The Internet will be exactly like television, and now with the Two-Tiered Internet Bill, you can make sure that those cheapskate commies stay off those Anti-Bush sites for good! Vote for the Two-Tiered Internet Bill today! After all, the rich only get richer!

    --
    Screw the rules, I have green hair!
  33. Re:The devil's advocate case for the two-tier net by Jeremi · · Score: 2
    How this would affect anyone's free speech rights baffles me. As long as it's written speech

    ... but all speech is not written speech. There is also audio and video content. It's quite likely that in the future more and more content will be delivered in audio and video form, simply because that is what a lot of people prefer to consume. And we know what a system is like where only large, rich, well-connected companies can afford to distribute audio and video content: it's called commercial television and radio, and it sucks.


    I'd like to see the Internet remain a many-to-many medium, even for video and audio content.

    --


    I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
  34. Re:The devil's advocate case for the two-tier net by spinfire · · Score: 2, Informative
    My recording of Aja, by Steely Dan, takes exactly 8:00 and is a bit over 9MB. So it's fair to say that audio files take about 1mb/minute. So I'm going to reasonably assume that phone calls are likely to take around 1mb a minute.

    Your assumption is grossly incorrect in that it assumes the bitrate needed to encode telephone speech with "acceptable" quality is the same as encoding music with "Near CD quality." Bitrates for VoIP typically range in the 4-16kbps range, which is considerably less than even low quality streaming radio at 56kbps.

  35. Re:The devil's advocate case for the two-tier net by mrchaotica · · Score: 2, Insightful
    The idea here is that our average bandwidth use has changed dramatically, and so the original definition of "unlimited bandwidth" may not be sustainable anymore.
    Then it's simple: the ISPs will have to raise their rates for their own customers, or stop offering "unlimited bandwidth" plans. That's how the law of supply and demand works. ISPs are not allowed to commit extortion to prop up their business model!
    Maybe it's not bad for the money to go from Skype instead of us, since if it goes from Skype, only Skype's users will be paying for it. If we charged more for everyone, including people (like me) who don't use Skype, then that's not fair either.
    You use X megabytes of bandwidth per month, someone else uses Y megabytes of bandwidth per month. If the ISPs just wanted to charge more for more bandwidth used, they could just charge you $X and the other person $Y. But they don't. They want to charge $(X + N) because of the particular kind of bytes you transferred (i.e., making a distinction between HTTP bytes from Google and HTTP bytes from MSN). You'd still be charged $X but Google would be charged $N for no good reason. Now, let's say there's someone else who also used X megabytes of bandwidth, but used the ISP's "approved" vendor. They'd be charged the same $X, but the "approved" vendor would be charged $0. Since business have to pass the costs on to the users, you're effectively paying $(X + N) while the other person (who consumes the same amount as service) is only paying $X. This gives the "approved" vendor an unfair advantage.

    Here's a concrete example: say that today Skype can afford to charge $10/month for VOIP, and Bellsouth can only afford to charge $15/month to provide their own VOIP service. You are paying $40/month for Bellsouth's "unlimited" DSL, and want to get VOIP service. You sign up for Skype, so now you're paying $50/month.

    Well, now the net neutrality bill fails, and Bellsouth starts charging Skype a fee to connect to you at a reasonable rate. Say, for example, it's $5/month/user. Since businesses are never perfectly efficient (e.g. Skype has to hire an extra employee to manage the Bellsouth extortion fee), Skype is forced to raise its rate by $7/month. Suddenly, Bellsouth's own VOIP is $2 cheaper, and it's because it happens to have a monopoly over the regulated infrastructure that is the network.

    Now, is this fair? Should Bellsouth be allowed to do it? I say, Hell no! And that's why we need network neutrality.

    Now, as for Free Speech: if ISPs are allowed to do this at all, there's no limit on the criteria used to implement it. It doesn't matter that text-based sites use (relatively) negligable bandwidth; a pro-Republican ISP could still (for example) throttle Democratic websites down to 2400 bits per second. Also, as time goes on media like sound and video will be used more and more on the Internet for all things, including political speech. Even now, how many videos on YouTube or Google Video do you think are political? What if the next JibJab election video is live-action, instead of a Flash animation?

    And that's not even mentioning the fact that the paperwork for all this protection money will be a nightmare for web businesses to manage because they'll effectively have to bribe every ISP on the planet, or the fact that as technology progresses and bandwidth increases this will become a non-issue anyway (in the same way that CPU speed is a non-issue nowadays for most casual users -- I'm aware that there will always be some groups that need all the bandwidth available, no matter how much there is. No "640K ought to be enough for everyone" posts, please).
    --

    "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

  36. What's good for the Goose.... by zenasprime · · Score: 2, Interesting

    ...Hey, lets get our townships, counties, and other municipalities to charge the ISPs for usage of local land to run their lines. AFter all, why should I let them run their lines accross my property and not get a cut of the profits. :)

  37. Re:The devil's advocate case for the two-tier net by ultranova · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The idea here is that our average bandwidth use has changed dramatically, and so the original definition of "unlimited bandwidth" may not be sustainable anymore.

    Then perhaps the ISPs should not be offering it anymore.

    Do you know how an all-you-can-eat-buffet works, from the business point of view ? It works because, on average, a customer pays the restaurant owner more than it cost the owner to make that meal. However, sometimes a large (or just gluttonous) person or even a group of such persons comes, sits down and starts eating. They eat and eat and eat, and end up costing way more than they paid. Can the owner then, after they have eaten, say: "By the way, by "all you can eat" I really meant only a limited amount, and since you ate more, you'll have to eat more" ?

    No, of course he can't. He sold unlimited meal, he can't redefine that words meaning afterwards. If those persons come eating often, then the owner will simply have to switch to stop offering an unlimited meal, or perhaps increase his rates to keep making money.

    Why on Earth would the ISPs be allowed to lie on their offers either ?

    --

    Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

  38. Re:Please help me understand... by Todd+Knarr · · Score: 2, Informative

    You misunderstand the telco's position. Say I subscribe to Cox HSI for my Internet connection. I pay Cox every month for my connection and bandwidth. Google connects to the Internet through Level3. Google pays Level3 every month for their connection. What the telcos want is for Google to pay Cox for the bandwidth used when I search using Google. Yes, that's in addition to what I'm paying Cox, and what Google's paying Level3. And yes, it does in fact involve charging someone who's nto a customer. The penalty for not paying would be that traffic to and from Google gets an effectively lower priority on Cox's network, making Google slow compared to sites that're paying. The telcos say they won't penalize non-paying traffic, just give priority to paying traffic. It amounts to the same thing, though. Whether a gas station charges $3.00/gallon for cash with a 10-cent surcharge for paying by credit card or $3.10/gallon with a 10-cent discount for paying with cash, the end result's exactly the same.

  39. Re:The difference? by evil_tandem · · Score: 2, Interesting
    There is no monopoly unless your local people cause it to be so.

    It is not economically feasible to run pipes to everyone. Most places in the US have such an arrangement (tax subsidies/etc). Once the pipes are in place however the carriers want to start abusing the situation. Since possession is 9/10-ths, for the most part they get their way.

    It is disingenuous to imply that anyone could go out tomorrow and just recreate much of this infrastructure with private funds.

    The several competing providers who have chosen to set up in my area are trying very hard to win me over, always offering better deals and counter-deals on bandwidth.

    Understand your situation is unique, not the norm. I have lived in several major cities, and several different urban areas in the last few years. The most I have ever seen in any place at once is 2. The phone carrier (about whom you had no choice), and the cable operator (who you also had no choice about). Most places I have lived had just one choice.

    ou have only your locally elected people to blame for a less competitive environment

    To be fair, it has more to do with population density than elected officials. When your local government subsidizes pipe because it is uneconomical for a company to do it, it is not reasonable that the company then gets a monopoly over it. Through lobbying, and because it is prohibitively expensive to lay down extra lines, most companies have managed to get a monopoly in any given area.

    Recognizing that a third party is routing an enormous portion of their traffic over your finite network, and making a lot of money doing so, does make talking to that user about traffic optimization a very legitimate objective.

    This logic is flawed. Without their content no one would want your pipes. It seems to me equally fair that the ISP should have to pay Google for helping it's customers find what they want on the network. Google is providing your customers incentive to buy your product at no cost to you. How is that fair? If all these terrible content production companies were not creating content, no one would want your network.

    A common carrier like UPS, you mean?

    Exactly like UPS. UPS does not get to double charge everyone. One side pays the price, they deliver the product. UPS does not get to collect my $10 shipping fee, then tell Amazon that if they do not also pay them they will intentionally delay the delivery of my package. If it costs more to deliver my package to me in one place than another, UPS will charge me more, not go to Amazon.

    You suffer from the delusion that Google is the local ISP's customer. They are not. The user requesting the information is your customer, and he is already paying you for that service. Google owes you nothing.

    If your customers want Google to be tiered then that is between you and the customers. It is in your best interest to give your customers better access to the content they want, not visa-versa.

    The reason ISP's want this is for the opposite reason. It gives them bundling control many of them are traditionally used to having. Bundling phone service for example. Either Vonage pays us to provide phone service to our customers (and we make money by leveraging one product for another), or we drop you and get someone else (or themselves) to do it.

    It is never in the customers best interest to be told what is best for them based on who gives the carrier the most amount of money. The only reason they can get away with this is because most of them do have a monopoly in any given area so the customers can't choose something less draconian. If this were not the case I would agree that market forces would work this out.

  40. It's a battle between businesses by SiliconEntity · · Score: 2, Interesting

    This is not an issue of your rights online. It is a battle between two enormous business groups: Internet providers and content providers. Neither of them has your interests at heart! Both groups are primarily motivated by maximizing their own profits. They are using you and manipulating you in order to try to further their business goals.

    I don't love my ISP any more than the next guy, but let me make a brief counter to all the propaganda from Google and Ebay and MSN about the "greedy" ISPs (of course, Google etc. are just in business to extend love and butterflies and puppies throughout the world).

    The way people pay for and get charged for the Internet has changed over time. It used to be that many of us had to pay by the minute, or even by the byte. That has mostly disappeared, but we still pay more for better service. Not everyone has the same options for Internet access, and even if they do have the same options not everyone can afford the same access. Internet access is a business, and a relatively new one. Business models are evolving and there is no guarantee that today's model is the perfectly optimal, best possible way that people could pay for Internet access.

    It might be that if ISPs could get some money from content providers, they would charge their customers less. Of course, they would not do this out of the goodness of their hearts (they have no hearts!), but rather for the same business reasons that they stopped their per-minute and per-byte charges. ISPs exist in a competitive business environment like other companies and ultimately they need to satisfy their customers.

    It might even be that in the future, Internet access could be free. It would effectively be subsidized by the big content companies, which ultimately get their income from ads. Free access to Internet content could be supported by advertising. It has worked with other media and it's possible it could work for the net too. But the only way it can happen is if ISPs, which bear the cost of end-user access, are able to get some of the revenues from the companies that are offering the ads.

    That's really what this battle is all about. I don't know how it will come out, but I do know that when good ol' Meg from Ebay suddenly wants me to write my congresswoman about an issue that, coincidentally, would protect the huge profits Meg is earning, her motive is not to benefit me. Meg doesn't actually ask my opinion all that often. She's not on the phone wishing me happy birthday or asking how's the family. No, her interests are not mine. She is looking to protect her company's profits and she is trying to influence me and use me in this political battle against Comcast and other ISPs.

  41. Re:The devil's advocate case for the two-tier net by paeanblack · · Score: 2, Interesting

    You'd still be charged $X but Google would be charged $N for no good reason.

    That is already the case: try out the following.

    Call up your local telco, introduce yourself as Joe Schmoe geek that wants a real connection. Call again as the CIO of Schmoe.com Inc. and order the exact same thing.

    The difference is usually upwards of 5x the price, simply for being a company. The future you fear is already business as usual. Welcome to the real world.