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BBC Tests Pre-Commercial Toshiba Fuel Cell Laptop
nbannerman writes "Fuel cells have been talked about a lot recently, but Toshiba have finally demonstrated a working model. The BBC News website provides some interesting background on fuel cells, but does carrying a warning for the future; 'Toshiba's phase one fuel cell shows how near, but also how far, the version is from being a commercial reality.'"
I'm all set to dish out $6000+ for it.
Ryan - http://www.thecosmotron.com/
Am I the only one that dosn't want to be wandering around town looking for a means to refull my notebook? The only use I can think of for these things is a flash charger for my existing battery.
"Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
It is only a matter of time before some dry county distillers catch on to the idea, which will bring the whole new meaning to the term 'drinking and [hard]driving'.
Just go with an Apple notebook if you want fantastic battery life. Their G4-based laptops have battery lives in excess of six hours, and that's with fairly heavy, continuous use.
I have friends who only check their email three or four times a day. Their Apple laptops can literally go a month between charges, since they're suspended to disk between checks.
Some executives at the firm recently bought Dell laptops. I have heard them complain about how short the battery life is. They're talking an hour and a half for some of the notebooks. I would have thought it was a battery problem, but basically all of the executives, even those with completely different models, complained of the same problem.
A small, plastic, brick-shaped 100 millilitre cartridge with methanol fuel that looks like an ink-jet printer cartridge
probably costs like an ink-jet printer cartridge too. But all it has to be is 'the best' and a certain class will be lining up to buy carts at $49.95 a pop, on company expense (think petrochemical and pharmaceutical industries).
try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
Try getting THAT through airport security.
Dear Tomoaki Arimura (pictured in the linked article), As a general rule, the tip of one's tie should come to about the edge his pants.
Off-topic of course, but I couldn't help it. Is he trying to polish his shoes with that thing, or...? Sorry, mod me down if you really need to.
Oh, fuel cells are cool. Your car wants one.
If you can't just be yourself, then be more like me, ok?
Fuel cells electrochemically convert fuel into electricity, without bothering with the awkward combustion process that dooms regular engines to inefficiency. The fuel that most currently workable fuel cells run on is hydrogen, which is a bit of a pain to store and transport. A device called a "reformer" can be used to convert methanol and water (much easier to store) into carbon dioxide and hydrogen, but reformer-based fuel cells aren't very efficient, and small models for portable electronic devices are less efficient still. "Direct methanol" fuel cells (DMFCs), on the other hand, run from un-reformed methanol. DMFCs are the things most likely to end up in your laptop or mobile phone. Learn more about fuel cells.
Meh.
In terms of volume, it is around a litre and weighs about as much as the same measure of water.
I actually thought they were a lot closer than this. From the photo, it actually looks larger than a litre, I'd say closer to 1.4. In any case, fucking huge, and nowhere near practical. They need to shrink it by more than an order of magnitude to be workable.
Oh no... it's the future.
..is that with a small adapter, you could use it to toast marshmallows at work. :-P
....marrssssshhhhhmmaaaallloooowwwsssss...huhmnhuh
huhmnnhuhhmhh
Yeah? Well I think you're overrated too.
That's because no one wants to carry laptops as heavy as they were 5 or 10 years ago. If they just maintained weight parity, with advances in computing tech, you could gave REAL decent batteries in them, probably two of them internal, but, modern execs and leet cafe trendy laptop carriers are *too wussy* to carry anything "heavy" like that anymore.
No, I am not kidding either, this is the obvious and relatively cheap solution to short range batteries, just make them bigger. You can have one or the other with todays tech, 3 lb or less laptops or decent batteries, choose one.
One of the things that jumped out at me was the thought "wow, this thing is very dependant on technology just to be safe!". From the article:
The fuel cell is loaded with sensors. When suddenly picked up and shaken, anti-tamper sensors lock down the fuel cell to avoid leaks.
As it produces heat from the reaction, internal sensors make sure that it does not overheat.
What of the odds of those various sensors failing (and you know that they will for someone, somewhere) and what kinds of damage is caused when they do?
Don't quit your day job.
Forget about ever taking one of thes eon an airplane. Methanol is a self oxygenating liquid, I believe, so it is very volatile.
Explain that to the airport police..."Really, it is a liquid fuel for my LAPTOP! Ow, that rubber glove doesn't help much for pain does it?"
http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Usa/Tests/Able1.jp g
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
So... Is anybody planning to make some kind of hybrid, that has both a battery and a fuel cell?
In case you guys aren't planning to do so... Patent pending!
Join the anonymous, help develop the network: http://www.i2p2.de
The thing looks pretty big and heavy, I wonder how a similar size/weight Lithium Ion battery would stack up against it. Is the new technology really better at the moment?
This fuel cell system weighs as much and is as large as a 1 Liter bottle of water... and gives 10 hours of charge?!
...and clearly there has not been any marked for a notebook with a clunky battery- The closest thing to a laptop ever released which emphasizes battery power over weight is the Electrovaya Scribbler- I have the 300 model and can get well over 10 hours out of it!
Clearly you could have a Lithium ion battery that lasts many more (20? 30?) hours at the same size...
Maybe by the 3rd generation (and a decade from now) it will be able to compete with standerd batteries, assuming standard batteries haven't improved by then this technology might be worth a second look (which is unfortunately a possiblity, given the slow progress in battery technology)...
If you can't wait until they release this thing, you can always try this.
That's exactley what I thought as well. Cost is something that needs to be convenient as well. These things would have to sell for real cheap in order for people to find it economical. I see this only being an extra power supply not a replacement.
Can I bum a sig?
Fuel cell laptops might last longer, but I'd think that electricity is a lot better available in most parts of the world than methanol (electricity is already needed for a lot of things in "the field" and besides, a few spare batteries for a laptop are not the militaries most hard to get resource.
Firehed - Unfortunately, thanks to medical breakthroughs, common sense is not as common as it once was.
In any case, fucking huge, and nowhere near practical.
/. crowd are probably in agreement on this.
Totally agree with you - I am not about to trade in my laptop for a different computer that has a 1 liter (or larger) fuel canister attached to it. Most of the
But you know who might find it practical? Anyone in the middle of nowhere, away from electric outlets, away from plugs. Field researchers, for instance, could really benefit from something like this. And powering your laptop or cell phone with a fuel cell is a much more efficient use of energy than plugging a 12-volt adapter into an electric generator.
Think of the multilayered implications of referring to something based on the chemical properties of distilled methanol and water "vaporware."
Slashdot Burying Stories About Slashdot Media Owned
It appears increasingly unlikely that fuel cells will ever happen. Although fuel cell technology continues to improve, the improvement is very gradual. It's not clear that fuel cells are progressing faster than new battery technology, in which case the two will never converge.
I should also note that the fuel cartridge (100ml) by itself, which powers the laptop for 10 hours, is not that much smaller than a battery. Even if toshiba drastically shrank the size of the surrounding electronics, making the entire cell the same size as a battery, it still would have no advantage. You would still have to carry around extra fuel cartridges (with methanol) for additional power.
Bear in mind that you wouldn't be able to recharge the cartridge by just pouring in more methanol, or buying new fuel cartridges at a convenience store. Methanol is extremely poisonous even in very small amounts, and medically significant amounts are absorbed through the skin. Therefore the fuel cartridges will require expensive and durable equipment to prevent the leakage of any fuel whatsoever when removed from the laptop. Probably the fuel cartridges will be expensive and will have to be recycled and disposed of properly.
Hmm...a gas powered laptop! great! When will this energy efficient improvement hit the automobile market....oh....wait....
I guess fuelcell is a little bit better than regular gas engines, but what is wrong with batteries? (electricity can be made in bulk, cutting waste, and hell, they could create that with fuelcell technology.
I fear the Y2038 bug
The Energy Density of a Lithium ion Battery is .54-.72 MJ/kg. Compare that to methanol, which is 22.61 MJ/kg. In layman's terms, you get vastly more energy out of an equal size amount of methanol fuel. Now, you still have to factor in the size of the fuel cell, but carrying around 1 fuel cell with a tank of methanol is still preferable to carrying around 10 batteries!
Also note that I'm not talking about field bases with generators available.
Government's view of the economy: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving,regulate it. If it stops moving, subsidize it.
...how many cycles per gallon does it get?
Battery technology isn't getting better anytime soon. We've gone from lead to zinc to lithium metals in an attemt to get the most electrochemical potential for the least amount of space/weight. But we're out of periodic table. Lithium is the best metal there is for batteries, if you care about weight and power density. Barring any huge advances in electrolytes (and we're rapidly going through all the posibilities of those too) the best we can hope for from batteries is a steady 5% improvement per year.
Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress at this period in history.
FTFA: "In terms of volume, it is around a litre and weighs about as much as the same measure of water. "
Why can't people just say ITS A FREAKIN KILOGRAM. When are people outside of the U.S. going to start understanding the metric system.
Yeah. I've got this laptop here. It can run for at least twenty hours on four AA batteries. Not very powerful or fast, but it gets the job done. http://www.dentaku-museum.com/hc/computer/m100/m10 0-2.jpg
Good point, but obviously the energy density should not be the criterium, otherwise we might as well use the binding energy of helium (675,000,000 MJ/kg).
Efficiency, heat production and ease of transport and storing should be equal factors. And since lithium ion batteries have been around for much longer, I assume things like efficiency are better.
But I look forward to see these alternative sources of energy become better and more common via the usual vicious circle; things become better->they become more common->they become better (research becomes more profitable)->the become cheaper->they become more common->etc.
Firehed - Unfortunately, thanks to medical breakthroughs, common sense is not as common as it once was.
that this thing is too bulky, or too expensive, or not abusive enough from its petrol-consuming counterparts (yes electricity is petrol-consuming, not directly but indirectly, of course), i wait for the day when either the cost of your electricity is $1000s for your home and car because the supply has diminished to such a level there is hardly any left in the world anyway or we are so overwhelmed by the effects of globalwarming that we cannot go outside except in Tyvek suits and assisted-breating apparati and the use of such materials are banned. This will be so vogue and desired, i hope you guys (and gals, theres females on here right) are kicking yourself in the ass for complaing.
...and it should be known by now
I sort of like the idea of a crank or windup clockwork spring generator for additional electrical supply, like the MIT laptop was originally supposed to have. If it is spring and clockwork, you don't have to wind for a long time, my baygen/freeplay radios (they have flashlights, too) you can wind completely up in less than a minute, then they give 30 minutes radio. I know it wouldn't last as long with a laptop, but it would be *some* emergency power as your battery started to go. There's even a foot powered generator you could get, throw it on the floor and just a slow pumping action acts as a generator, leaving your hands free and not bothering the computer. Something like this, perhaps a bit beefier the Stepcharger
He's the guy to whom the girl says: "Is that a fuel-cell laptop you're using, or are you just happy to see me".
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
"size, noise and weight"
The noise from the fuelcell will disappear when microfluidics are used to pump the fuel and exhaust. That will also drop the size (volume), and even the weight. Though 0.792 specific gravity methanol will weigh about 792g (1.75lbs) in the liter capacity, so the total cell will probably continue to weigh about the same. Which is a lot less than the weight of 10h in electric batteries.
A really interesting gain could come from integrating the cell reservoir with the rest of the volume of the entire notebook. Fill the spaces currently filled with air with fuel (protected of course by a tough insulating/nonflammable layer), and the overall volume of the notebook could remain about the same, especially considering the airfilled shockbarrier protecting LCDs. Clever engineering could circulate the waste heat in the fuel, much as modern car fuelpumps are cooled by the gas in the tank in which they sit. Really clever engineering could harness the waste heat to circulate the fuel not just to the heat exchangers, but also through the pump, for efficiency increase (and heat reduction).
I expect that Toshiba is already testing its microfluidics version privately. PR like the BBC review will generate excitement for even a clunky first introduction. A quiet, smaller, lighter introduction will exceed those expectations and increase sales with even better reviews.
Maybe the improvements will only come out from up Toshiba's sleeve gradually. They might patent them early, then introduce them to pump their sales curves. I don't believe they will introduce a noisy fuelcell as early as 6 months from now, so they surely have more than they're demo'ing. Which gives me more confidence that they're going to pull this one off.
Now if it will just run on sake, and give massages, Toshiba will have retaken the "Personal Computer" from the dull interpreters who have made it a boring commodity.
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make install -not war
dang, messed up the headline, meant spot, not stop - sorry, I meant to say:
He's the guy to whom the girl says: "Is that a fuel-cell laptop you have, or are you just happy to see me?"
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
This is really great. Because it runs on methanol, it's going to be fairly affordable (at least for short trips to places without any electrical power and potentially very easy to refill - Methanol is also sold as "Wood Alcohol" at your local hardware store. The only real question is the concentration. Most DMFCs (Direct Methanol Fuel Cells) need the methanol to be watered down. The best that I've seen are 99.5% (it had to use a means of recycling the water produced, as the methanol feed can't be more than 70% for electrochemical reasons otherwise) and 20-30%, however in research one generally is trying for 10% at best (I've done 3 work terms of research in fuel cell technologies - as a chemist). Usually at such high concentrations the methanol starts to seep across the polymer membrane, and cutting the voltage. It's one of the big problems with DMFCs, as having to dilute the methanol means that the reservoir gets bigger and more inconvenient. So they might not be too keen to let people mix their own...
Toshiba's fuel cell news is a little old, still, it's great that they're finally getting it out and available for the public. I'm surprised though that they're using one with so many moving parts - I would think that a microfluidics approach would work too. But personally I'd love to take one apart to see how they have their membrane electrode assembly with its proton exchange membrane
The question is going to be whether, like some inkjet printers, others will be able to make cheaper versions of the refilling cartriges. After all, they're just holding methanol and water - not very dangerous, or explosive, and the flammability is fairly low - but drink it and you might go blind. Their expressed concern in the article is smoking and fuming when overheating, but unless it's 100% methanol, or the cell had a very high power output (with lots of heat being generated), I couldn't see it being a problem. Even in the lab I've never seen methanol smoke - it just boils or evaporates very quickly.
One question to those who know more about computers than me: how much power does an average laptop use? I'm curious to work out what kind of efficiency they're getting with their cells.
Great. Now you can contribute directly to global warming from the comfort of your own lap... ;-)
The packaging seems inconvienient. I would design it as a stand alone box
with a cable to the laptop. This would mitigate problems of noise, fire hazards etc.
A cell that big doesn't prove much. I reckon you could get pretty good 'battery life' if you humped around a diesel generator.
"Physics is to math as sex is to masturbation." -R. Feynman
"The fuel cell is robustly constructed, despite looking so fragile. It is designed to be about as durable as the laptop it powers."
its a toshiba.
Can methenol be produced by a tabletop device someone would buy with one of these? If not, I don't see any use for it. Anywhere you could buy a cartridge for it would also have AC power.
Why not recharge the batteries from a bio-nano-proteome technology that also runs on ethanol, or carrots, or beef jerky: human muscle power!
I'll tell you why: a hand crank solution has no expensive consumables to sell to consumers over and over. Also, there's the social stigma of physical effort in public.
=S
I don't think H2 fuel cells will ever match the practicality of a simple backup alkaline battery pack. Just keep the alkaline pack with you and only plug it into the laptop for those times when you've pushed the internal battery too far.
Most people would probably replace the alkaline cells less than once every 12 months. And even with very long periods between use, the alkalines will stay usable for 8 years.
Contrast this with lugging around methanol cartridges which is A) a seriously scary toxin, B) another way to generate mucho garbage (if these are indeed to be used constantly for primary power), C) probably very expensive over the long haul, given the safety measures required, D) on the whole much bulkier per Wh than simple alkalines.
Should an unusual circumstance arise, I can also get alkaline refills just about anywhere on earth (like a convenience store or a streetvendor stand), whereas methanol or H2 cartridges will probably only be readily available in large urban areas within developed countries for the next 20 years at least.
I think this is a solution looking for a problem. But nevertheless handy when you're venturing into the wilderness, and only at night, and without an automobile/truck, and need 10hrs solid computing time (only 2x what my iBook gets), and have plenty of carrying capacity for a bulky laptop apparatus plus a larger fuel supply. Which means you are hiking/pedaling/stranded near the poles during winter.