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Canadian ISP Shoulder Surfing
1nfamous writes "Canada's Largest ISP, Bell Sympatico, has informed its customers that it intends to 'monitor or investigate content or your use of your service provider's networks and to disclose any information necessary to satisfy any laws, regulations or other governmental request.' The new customer service agreement is effective June 15, 2006."
>to disclose any information necessary to satisfy any laws, regulations or other governmental request Which Gov.? The Canadian of US?
by TheSpoom (715771) Uncaring Linux user here. I have nothing to add to this but please continue. *munches popcorn*
If you are a capitalist and believe in "the magic of the marketplace", you have to believe that this trend will eventually result in ISPs who advertise the opposite: that they don't snoop, that they dump any logs within hours or minutes, and so forth. That is, if they are allowed to do so by law.
I believe most problems of this type can be self correcting with market forces. If I don't like having my ISP spying on me, I'll choose another ISP. If enough people literally don't care, (like me), then this ISP will stay in business.
Of course, the point is moot... All ISPs cache data to a certain extent. And all governments can strong-arm or bribe companies... It's just that this particular ISP is being honest and saying, "Yea, we'll hand your stats over."
The chief difference between Canada and America? At least the Canadians get fair warning.
June 15th, the date this went into effect, was two weeks ago, and the Globe and Mail article was posted yesterday. So either Bell Sympatico told people with little to no warning, or the Globe and Mail didn't bother to run this until everything was said and done. Either way, this sucks.
In general terms, they feel that mass monitoring, arresting people on security certificates and all the other things that I feel are an invasion of my privacy and liberty were perfectly acceptable.
It's "think of the children" applied to "think of our security".
I suppose it's human to fear the unknown. And the terror age we live in is filled with uncertainty.
After much discussion, I think they see my point of view, though they still maintain that "something" must be done. And if that "something" infringes on liberty that's still a cost they are willing to bear.
So, sadly, in my limited experience, the sheeple are not going to be bothered any time soon...
If you think imaginary property and real property are the same, when does your house become public domain?
We make sure that the customer's don't know when we're spying on them.
So... How many Americans do you know that would tell you, "Gee, the government can obtain my ISP records if they want? I didn't know that!"
I would contend that Americans, in general, probably have an overexagerated idea of what the government can / can't do thanks to Hollywood and rumor. The "man" isn't quite as "fascist" as you think. Try living with real fascism, as my parents did in Cuba for 40 years...
I can only imagine how they formulated such a modern concept:
What's the next step?
This is bad news for Canada. Here in the United States, we have strict privacy laws which protect us from such intrusive "techniques"
This slashdot-related signature is a stub. You can help kihjin by expanding it.
It seems clearer daily that most people won't care about any injustice until it affects them personally. Until then, they're content seeing others imprisoned, tortured, and even killed.
The public has, somehow, been tricked into believing the world is full of bad guys who conveniently avoid being in positions of power. The leaders can do no wrong. They are doing it all to help us; after all, they are the "good guys."
Why can't more people see this clumsy manipulation for what it is? Are people so afraid, or so short-sighted, that they've become unable to consider the implications of their actions -- for themselves as well as for others?
If you use a system that creates a new key for every sesssion, or message, then its completely probably that you would no longer have the encryption keys.
Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
At least they had the decency to let you know it was going on....I'm just curious as to what they plan to do with this information? To quote the article -
' Bell Sympatico has informed its customers that it intends to "monitor or investigate content or your use of your service provider's networks and to disclose any information necessary to satisfy any laws, regulations or other governmental request."...A spokeswoman for Public Safety Minister Stockwell Day said no decision has been made on the bill, known as the Modernization of Investigative Techniques Act. But she noted that Day has spoken to telecom industry officials and legal experts about bringing it forward as early as the fall session.'
This means Sympatico users are agreeing to disclose to the government whatever Bell feels like disclosing! No mention has been made of getting a warrant,etc....to prove that this should be carried out for a specific reason. There's no real mention of disclosure criteria.
On a side-note - Stockwell Day is a bit of a dingleberry - a creationist who believes the earth was created 5000 years ago....the sharp swing to the right has begun in Canada....looks like the terrorists are winning when our freedoms start to get whittled away, bit by bit....
I wonder how long before people start being bothered by this kind of behaviour?
In the US no one cares because the government told us we have nothing to hide if we're good citizens. It's only those terrorists and political^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H subversives we have to worry about.
Stating that you will disclose information that is required by law is obvious. But disclosing information that you are not allowed to disclose and do not have to disclose, makes no sense. I can see no benefit to the company. What gives?
Why can't more people see this clumsy manipulation for what it is?
Because it works every time. Century after century.
Watching for Terrorism or watching for copyright violation? .... Or is copyright violation soon going to be considered a terrorist act... seems like a slippery slope to me
David
Unfortunately 99.99% of internet users have no clue about encryption, they have never heard of PGP, probably don't know when they are even viewing an https page. The mass bumbles along in ignorance and any attempt to educate them is blocked by an enourmous inertia of apathy.
It would take several years of media coverage about invasion of privacy and some high profile cases before the masses would rise from their slumber and do something about Bell Sympatico. It's the same as what the US government (and the UK government) are doing to strip away freedom in the name of security.
It's sad but true, if you understand the issues you are in a tiny minority. Don't expect and change anytime soon.
while sco {
wget -O
}
Or they ask Google
we have a fairly unbiased court system that gives everyone a fair trial.
unless you are arrested by the US Military for being "muslim in posession of a beard"
in which case you will be shipped off to a concentration camp called Guanatanamo Bay in Cuba or perhaps being kidnapped to another country for "interrorgation" or " torture by proxy" (all for the sole purpose of avoiding World and US law as US has far more secure prisons with in its borders if they where worried about security), a place where torture is the norm and you are already guilty without trial (as the president says they are dangerous killers)
too many Americans are blinded by love for their countries ideals not what it actually does in practice
We always used to joke about spies listening in on our coversations 20 years ago. We all knew that the gov did wiretaps and listened in on our communications from time to time. But only the loons really thought that "average joe" was being spied on. We honesly didn't worry about it.
Well, now it's too late. Total Information Awareness is upon us and all of our communications by phone/cell/computer are being listened in on and filtered through. There really is nowhere go but downhill. You watch. Within 5 years all foreigners visiting the US will have to have GPS enabled chip implants. Within 10 all prisoners will have them. Within 15 it will be a Felony for any US citizen to remove/disable their chip implant. Anyone want to join me while I go live in cave somewhere?
If you wanna get rich, you know that payback is a bitch
I may be paranoid (and that doesn't neccessary mean that people aren't waching me) but considering the retro-active nature of the change what springs to mind is that they have already disclosed everyone's useage data and then realized (whoops) that that was illegal so then changed the TOS (retro-actively) to cover their butts.
That's what my little voices are telling me anyway.
One would assume they mean the keys to stored data.
If you generated a new key every session what would be the point of keeping all that random data (because by throwing the key away every day everything you do is lost)?
liqbase
My turn:
I'd rather have the government sneak into my house while I'm on vacation than have my family whisked away to a detention camp and killed.
Don't justify the bad with the worse.
Failing to be vigilant against it is how "real fascism" is allowed to happen!
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
So, sadly, in my limited experience, the sheeple are not going to be bothered any time soon...
If you start mentioning paralells to a certain European country in the mid 30's, I'm sure that'll turn their heads. It's frightening, really.
I suppose it's human to fear the unknown. And the terror age we live in is filled with uncertainty.
People like to say "everything changed on 9/11". Well, as far as I'm concerned, the only thing that changed on 9/11 is that a lot of people with a naieve and incorrect notion of security got a rude wake-up call. I've wondered since I was a teenager (back in the 70s) why such an obviously soft and much-hated target as the US had not had a significant terror attack in many decades. OK City got us started, and was more along the lines of what I was originally thinking; absolutely anyone could have done that.
People want their warm fuzzy fake security back. They can't have it of course, because it never really existed, but there are no end of people (in government and elsewhere) willing to exploit their desire to their own ends.
Thanks. You would think two contiguous countrys with similar governments would be closer than they have seemed to be in the past. I have friends who visited Canada and enjoyed themselves immensely and having lived in Florida previously, I can tell you Canadian tourists seem to enjoy themselves in the US. Maybe it's just us commoners who know how to get along.
I reserve the right to think for myself. Others' opinions are optional. Puppy on lap = typos...not illiteracy.
Exhibit B: The non-liberal candidates to choose from were selected by and, where it matters, will work for the elite.
"Conservative" Sock Puppet replaces "Liberal" Sock Puppet.
One of the easiest ways is to set things up so the candidates must spend large amounts of money on advertising to win an election. The second that happens, only corporate stooges will be among your choices.
She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
Many people are suggesting "Just go through a proxy". My question, seriously, how do you trust a proxy? How can you be sure that it's not just a honeypot, looking for "security concious" people, then logging every single thing they do? Sure, we can examine the client-side setup to see what's going on, but do we have any clue what's happening at the proxy end? What's to stop them from copying every single link and byte that goes through the proxy for future evaluation?
If I knew the wedgies I gave you back in 6th grade would have resulted in this . . . I might have taken a moments pause.
Perhaps we're few in terms of the general population. But consider: it doesn't take much to get the ball rolling. No one heard of Howard Dean outside of Vermont but when he went to run for President in 2004 and used the Internet to gather donations in a run at the grass roots vote, he did pretty well... until of course his exuberance got the best of him and the press blew it out of proportion. I would suggest that a candidate of the Slashdot party could start at that level and work their way up. I remarked on this once before in terms of the Pirate Party coming to America -- if they could start at the local level, win elections here and there to get on city councils or become mayors, it would start a ripple effect that would eventually spread to the national level.
It only takes one screwball with principles, smarts, and Internet access... and I suspect Slashdot is a great breeding ground for just such people.
GetOuttaMySpace - The Anti-Social Network
One would assume they mean the keys to stored data.
Where would you get that assumption from? The story is about data transmissions over the Internet. The original responder replied that we should "encrypt everything" to prevent this. I don't see any method of interpreting the matter other than, "Generate new keys for each Internet session."
Javascript + Nintendo DSi = DSiCade
While I agree with you on a lot of what you posted, I've got to disagree with your opinion on smokers. I see no reason why business owners shouldn't be allowed to let customers smoke. If you don't like it, go to a non-smoking restaurant/store/whatever. Most public buildings are non-smoking nowadays, so there's no place you have to be where you might be exposed to smoke. Just boycott all businesses that allow smoking and let capitalism take care of the rest.
I may be wrong but I'm reasonably certain all residential DSL in Ontario goes through Sympathetico. One advantage to living in a remote (read that as dial up only) area is no DSL and no Sympathetico. The route between my desk and my servers in the US does not go through Sympathetico.
Oh I'm sure IF the bill passed then they MIGHT get around to making my small ISP knuckle under. Like I give a shit. I don't care if the guvmint reads everything I do. They'll find I'm a weird and quite boring person.
But yes, it's the princple of the thing. Geist is dead on when he points out there's no oversight in this proposed law and that current laws seem to work citing the arrest here of 17 terrorists.
I think in a large sense this is much more political than it might appear to the average American. Tradidionally we've had a Liberal party and a Progressive Conservative party and a always-5% ultra left National Democratic Party. Our conservatives are somewhat to the left of the US Republican party.
A few years ago the Conservatives lost. Badly. Very badly. Very very badly. As in "Tories, party of two, your table is ready". A right wing whacko bunch called (spit) "reform" began to make headway and eventually merged the burned ashes of the conservative party and pretend to the tories but are in name only.
The fuckwit that recently got eleced as our current PM and is one of the all time worst PM's if for nothing else, being a Bush ass-kisser. As, in they refer to him as Vice President, not Prime Minister.
As an example of some of his dangerous lunacy the Canadian government has followed suit and like the (spit) Bush administration will no longer allow the arrival home of dead bodies from Iraq to be televised.
Now, we don't have many dead bodies coming back (you yanks running out of bullets?) but it did raise a very large furor here recently when some young lady came back in a box and this was censored.
So, and sure I'm a conspiracy theorist, but I suspect that this stupid proposed law originated in the White House, not in Ottawa.
Not that we'll EVER know the truth, mind you.
Need Mercedes parts ?
Where does your SSH tunnel go to? Someplace down the
line it needs to emerge unencrypted (assuming you aren't just surfing to
your own remote server(s)).
Don't let the ISP see what you are up to. anoNet (http://anonet.org) is an anonymous encrypted IP network which can protect those Canadians from their ISP. Setup takes two minutes. Just install OpenVPN and double click on the config file on the website. Pretty easy eh?
Both of your assumptions are likely to be proven false.
Although the current Conservative government is a minory government, they have been reading/swaying public opinion rather well and some of their other recent announcements have been met with everything from total apathy to considerable support.
For example, hot on the tails of the filing of the $30,000,000 MySpace lawsuit (14-year-old girl assaulted by 19-year-old boy she met online), the Canadian government announced that it intends to raise the age of consent in Canada "to protect 14 year old girls from adult predators". The local talk/news radio stations started doing polling and found out that about 97% of respondents were in favour of a revised law. The thing that makes this interesting isn't the law - it was part of the election platform - but the fact that they waited until there was a high-profile case in the media to lubricate its entry into the House. If not for the high-profile MySpace lawsuit then the bill would have received higher scrutiny and people would be less afraid to point out its shortcomings. As it is now, anyone who objects to the new law is painted as coddling pedophiles...
The fact that the police arrested terrorists in Toronto should prove that a new surveillance law isn't required, but instead it simply scared people into thinking that trading liberty for security is a good idea, the same way 9/11 did in the USA.
Conservative politicians use FUD to push their anti-liberty, legislated morality agendas on people on both sides of the Canada/USA border.