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WGA Turning Off PCs in the Fall?
thesaint05 writes "We all know about Microsoft's WGA initiative that started last July. Most of us were troubled to learn that the WGA has been 'phoning home' to Microsoft at every boot. Well, get ready, because eventually Microsoft may be turning off copies of Windows without WGA installed. According to a Microsoft technician, 'in the fall, having the latest WGA will become mandatory and if its not installed, Windows will give a 30 day warning and when the 30 days is up and WGA isn't installed, Windows will stop working, so you might as well install WGA now.'" A new version of WGA was released on Tuesday and, at least for the time being, Windows users have the option of removing WGA from their systems.
What? What was that sound? Was that the sound of millions of unlicensed Windows machines all screaming out in shutdown all at once - and then suddenly silenced?
To keep the current Futurama motif running, quoth Professor Farnsworth, "The Jedi are going to feel this one!"
Seriously, though, doesn't Microsoft realize that significant number of users aren't going to go out and suddenly buy Windows? Sure, most (half?) will, but the rest will go hunting for a truly free (read: no-cost) alternative until a hack comes out.
How could this possibly be a good idea now ? Maybe if it had been there all along, or was introduced in a new release (XP, Vista, whatever)... but why spring it on the unsuspecting masses mid-cycle? That just screams massive user migration.
Not that I'm shedding any tears in reaction to that concept!
"Adventure? Excitement? A Jedi craves not these things."
Is there anything in the EULA that allows them to get away with this?
You know, I've been ranting on Slashdot and elsewhere about the dangers of XP's "product activation" and Treacherous Computing and such for years now, but few people wanted to listen. Well, one of the scenarios I predicted is coming true! Now just wait for the screws to tighten even further...
I jumped ship to Linux when XP came out. It's not too late for you to join me!
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
It is their product, if you didn't pay for it I don't see how you can complain that they aren't going to support you or allow you to continue using it. If you want software to be free that much, use Linux and stop complaining.
Wait, let me read between the oh so subtle lines... You think people are going to be migrating in droves to Linux? Give me a break, people won't be moving to Linux. They'll find a hack for Windows, they'll buy Windows, or more than likely they'll just buy a new PC that comes with Windows legally bundled. Nobody is moving to Linux because the games aren't there, the thousands of cheesy little Windows applications people love aren't there, it's different (read: scary), and it's a pain in the ass for most joe schmoes to install.
Where is the genuine advantage? Can I at least get a regular advantage? Something? A bone perhaps? Why not just call it what it is: Microsoft Windows Spyware/Destruction/Shutdown/TheShaft(c) Tool?
I disagree, most users are not very bright and as such when their PC stops working they'll do just about anything to make it work... whether it be plunk down 100-300 bucks for a copy of windows or even 300-500 for a new Windows based PC.
Sure... they could go to Linux or other open source based systems but the fact that most have never heard of it and just want their PC to work exactly as it did before basically precludes this possibility.
Help Brendan pay off his student loans
Microsoft Windows, now comes with preinstalled rootkit for your optimal experience.
https://shipit.ubuntu.com/
Lemme guess, MS is all pissed off because Vista won't ship anytime soon and they aren't making cash on it. So now they have to increase revenue by making people buy XP who may not have legit copies? I sure hope some 16 year-old hacker takes care of this problem for good.
http://religiousfreaks.com/From Windows XP to Windows 98-SE.....
BTW, I've got a Home PC running my office's license of XP. I get some crazy messages at home from the WGA.... strangely the office PCs hardly grumble.
No wonder Gates is leaving the party...
If you keep throwing chairs, one day you'll break windows....
The unsuspecting masses of copyright infringers, you mean. These people aren't giving them money anyway, and are unlikely to give them money. Microsoft must feel that they have a sufficient installed base that even when they lose the people who won't pay them, that they'll still have enough seats. However, this will definitely cause Linux desktop adoption to increase, there is NO way around that.
In fact, I'll be one of them; I'm not going to slide back to XP home with its bullshit permissions tools. (Yes, I know there's other tools you can use.) I have a couple of XP Home licenses even. Maybe I'll use one in a virtual machine.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Maybe they'll get a mac?
First of all, they did have this all along: it's called Windows Product Activation. C'mon, you should have seen this coming from the beginning!
Second of all, doing it slowly like this actually works out better for Microsoft. If you put a frog in a pot of boiling water, he'll jump out. But if you put him in a pot of cold water and heat it up to boiling, he'll get cooked. Similarly, if you started this with Vista people would simply choose to keep their existing XP, or upgrade to Linux instead. But doing it this way, by stealthily installing it and then turning off the software they already have, you get more of them to "fix" it (by doing whatever they have to do to make it "genuine") because they're already invested.
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
Im still on SP1, i run a tight ship and have never had a problem with spyware or virii. My questions is, does microsoft have some way of forcing this on me or has the fact that i stopped using windows update over a year ago saved me?
Firstly, I would be surprised if the real pirates didn't have a crack for this less than a week after WGA is made compulsory.Secondly, the fact that people HAVE to pay for a windows version rather than just sticking on an illegal version will cause these people to migrate more and more to free OS's like linux.
People don't use windows because it is a "good" OS, they use it because everybody else does and programs are written for it. Lessen the number of people using windows, and you lessen the reason for companies/people to code specifically for it, hence you lessen the reason for using it.
This is how the loudness war is killing music.
A couple of scenarios I typically see:
User #1: Has auto update on and is a member in good standing anyway. No problems
User #2: Has auto update off and is a member in good standing. No problems because they haven't updated their computer since they bought it.
User #3: Running cracked copy and will have a way around this doomsday scenario pretty soon.
Your user #3 is a minority in the U.S. Microsoft and every successful software company -knows- the key to making popular software is to make it easy enough to crack. So I don't see the Microsoft playing "license enforcer" anywhere except maybe the U.S.
Sensational summary though.
http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
I agree to an extent. But the OP has a point as well. Either way, Microsoft will be decreasing their install base in order to gain a few more legit sales. Expect to see more volume license keys here and there.
This really smacks of cutting off one's nose to spite one's face. If they do go through with this, I can see them losing their monopoly status within a few years.
I think even some legit Microsoft users might not like the idea of Microsoft taking such a heavy handed approach. As a business owner I wouldn't want to risk having one of my employees PCs out of commission due to what could be an honest mistake or omission on my part.
I reserve the right to think for myself. Others' opinions are optional. Puppy on lap = typos...not illiteracy.
Now they know that they really do have the world by the balls, and they've decided to squeeze.
Let's face it -- the MS fans will bitch and whine, then they'll do as they're told. This is going to be a very good bottom-line move for Microsoft.
Lacking <sarcasm> tags,
They'll beat a path to SkyOS!
-- www.globaltics.net
Political discussion for a new world
Honestly, I hope this happens (I will be investing in a transgaming account again, but eh). It will help curb my gaming habit. I hope it does the same thing for a lot of other people (if I dont see some more support for Linux and Mac in the gaming world then game developers are going to stop making money off of me)
"I have great faith in fools: Self confidence my friends call it." ~Edgar Allan Poe
If this is all true, I'll eat my hat.
The thing to look it is how this might affect legitimate corporate versions of XP--and by that, I mean VLK versions actually being used in an enterprise setting.
The company for which I work has more than 100,000 copies of XP running in offices on six continents, participating in one of the largest Active Directory installations in the world. Every system's load is tightly controlled and managed, and I can tell you that there are no copies of WGA anywhere on any of those desktops (I've seen the SMS reports). Nor will there ever be.
People say to "vote with your dollars", but your dollars, and my dollars, don't matter. Large corporate dollars matter--like the kind of dollars that can outfit a company's world-wide IT needs. WGA has no place on a configuration-controlled and managed enterprise desktop, and MS would never risk upsetting their real customers--corporate Windows & Office sales--to emplace something like this.
The unsuspecting mass of legitimate users that WGA erroneously labels as "pirates", you mean. That's the best part of this: the more they tighten their grip, the more star systems... err, the more legitimate users get pissed off.
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
Before you get too excited, this is a slashdot link to a zdnet story that links to a blog called Interesting People that posted an email from an end user named David Pollack who got this information from a guy at an 800 number at Windows support. I'll wait until I learn more before making a judgement.
It will just give balmer your address and at christmas he'll come down your chimney and throw chairs at you. Chairs with spikes on them and laser beams.
"If I were bound by all laws everywhere I'm sure I would have committed a capital crime somewhere."
I resent the implication that Windows isn't scary and a pain in the ass to use. It's just what everyone's accustomed to.
Big difference. (not that I don't see and agree with your point to some extent, however!)
"Adventure? Excitement? A Jedi craves not these things."
What about my two perfectly legitimately licensed machines at home that fail the "Windows Genuine Advantage" test every time they update WGA? Considering that one of them is my copy of Advanced Server 2003, I won't be exactly happy when it gets killed this fall. (Hey, I just use it for the mail server program because I can't stand sendmail.)
And I'm just a little bitty guy with one server running. What happens when this hits some company's server farm and they all shut down? How much liability is MicroSoft going to have when that happens?
And every time they "fix" my copy after the new WGA comes out, I have to make manual registry changes. Can you imagine having to do that on a 500 machine server farm?
Great idea MicroSoft, if your product actually worked.
Life, the Universe, and Everything... in my image.
Why are we making all this fuss over what could just be a rumor unwittingly spread by a clueless help desk worker? Since when did help desk techs become privy to future, unannounced plans for a company, let alone ones as sensitive as this one?
I'm not saying it's impossible but consider the source.
"People that quote themselves in their signatures bother me" - athakur999
...the US's Northeastern Power Grid problem is solved.
Sure... they could go to Linux or other open source based systems but the fact that most have never heard of it and just want their PC to work exactly as it did before basically precludes this possibility.
Money is a suprisingly efficient motivator.
I have a windows xp pro box which is fully licensed and activated however, the WGA spyware keeps bugging me at startup and accusing me of being a criminal just because it cannot connect to the mothership. The reason why it cannot connect to the mothership on startup is because I activate my internet manaully and not have it set to run on startup.
I have removed the WGA crap and will not be re-applying it nor any other windows update post SP2 for that matter.
I am a legitimate customer of MS and they accuse me of not having a genuine version of their product. I do hope the WGA comes back to bite them in the ass.
Now, where did I put that Ubuntu DVD?
What are you going to do about it? Hold your breath until you turn blue?
No, I'm not trolling -- the reality is that Microsoft has the whip hand and all the sound and fury is coming from people who know that in the end they're going to do as they've been told.
Lacking <sarcasm> tags,
Wait, wait, wait... Apple just convinced me that my Mac was a PC... 'cause it can run Windows... how does getting a Mac help if I still install a pirated copy of Windows under Boot Camp?
Oh... wait, right - I'm *NOT* supposed to use/install Windows, I've already got Mac OS...
(Okay... so this post was *pure* sarcasm. Spoken like a true self-deprecating confirmed Mac user for many years...)
"Adventure? Excitement? A Jedi craves not these things."
What drove me to linux on the desktop was my increasing unease at the amount of stuff windows was sharing with MS. That was about 3 years ago, I suppose. I don't think people will move in droves either , but if the threat of it was enough to push me over the edge, I'd imagine there's plenty more people not too unlike me that would move as well. I'm not -that- unusual.
there is no need to sign your posts. this isn't usenet. your username is right there above your post. stop it.
I disagree, most users are not very bright and as such when their PC stops working they'll do just about anything to make it work... whether it be plunk down 100-300 bucks for a copy of windows or even 300-500 for a new Windows based PC.
Ahh, so the "bright" thing to do would be to go out and install a brand new OS that you've never used before (and hope it installs in such a way that it will leave your current partition intact so you can get to your data files), install a bunch of software that you've probably never used before, live with the fact that you possibly won't be able to use some of the software packages that there is no OSS counterpart (or the OSS counterpart sucks), that you may have hardware that may or may not have Linux driver support. All that to save $100? I guess there is a faction of users out there who thinks that that is a reasonable trade off, but I'm guessing that many/most would say "hey, my time is worth waaaaaay more than that. Doesn't seem so "not very bright" to me to just spend the damn money and get on with life.
Some of us are forced to use MS Windows because our jobs demand we use products like Visual Studio which only runs on it.
First off I did pay. Second I do not like having to have it call home and it giving them any personal information including my IP and prod ID to activate which seems to happen every time a tech savy person does anything significant to their computers. Third, I do not like having them infect my computer with endlessly growing DRM shit to support all this. Forth once you grant them this right you give them the power to do so much more than they are currently claiming they are going to do. Imagine forced DRM installation, expiring software leases, and complete user tracking from purchase to forced obsolescence. Fifth, we are the customer, it is their job to meet our demands, not make us their slaves.
Now they seem to be telling us, "Oh, no, Activation never really worked. We need to continuously validate the system."
No. You don't. And you won't.
I just built a brand new machine, primarily for gaming. Oblivion has been fairly sweet. But it looks like I won't be playing those games anymore -- not unless the entire game industry decides to support Linux.
This is morally and ethically reprehensible, and Microsoft knows it, and apparently doesn't care. Well, I do care. I do not, and shall not, grant consent to Microsoft to remotely snoop on my machine, regardless of their ostensible reasons. If my copy of Windows stops functioning as a result, I will take that as a maliciously incorporated product defect, and respond accordingly.
Schwab
Editor, A1-AAA AmeriCaptions
What about the guy who DID buy his copy of Windows, or got it bundled with his machine. If his copy got turned off by mistake, he will be QUITE unhappy to pay again for something that he already owns. In some circles this is called "extortion" if done intentionally. This will breed a LOT of ill will.
The other thing that totally honked me off is that WPA was supposed to reduce piracy. If it actually worked, Microsoft would lose less to piracy. Shouldn't the consumers get reduced prices to compensate for the inconvenience? After all, Microsoft is now making more money, right? Somehow, I bet that Microsoft will not lower the Vista prices even after WGA turns on fully.
Personally, I am grabbing some popcorn and am going to enjoy watching the meltdown of Microsoft if this thing happens. If I were suddenly forced to give up Windows, the only thing that I would miss besides games is my accounting package (and no, Gnucash can't replace that until it learns how to handle inventory tracking).
"-1 Troll" is the apparently the same as "-1 I disagree with you."
FUCKING bullshit!
Nobody is moving to Linux because the games aren't there, the thousands of cheesy little Windows applications people love aren't there, it's different (read: scary), and it's a pain in the ass for most joe schmoes to install.
They might move to MACs. I've been doing windows support for decades and in the last several months, I've actually had some users ask about hooking their MACs into our network....I was shocked because these users are not savy with the tech. I would have thought moving to a MAC would be a big deal for them...but it wasn't.
I helpped them and I am hopeful about Apple's new sleek laptops. Doesn't hurt that they have such nice ads for the MACs now....
"Only one thing, is impossible for god: to find any sense in any copyright law on the planet." Mark Twain
I'm sorry, but my bullshit meter is pegged on this story. While Microsoft may be evil, they aren't that stupid, and the story is completely unsubstantiated - TFA is a blog that is linking to another unsubstantiated blog that alleges that some first line OneCare peon told him this.
It wouldn't be surprising if the whole thing was a hoax. At best it's some OneCare peon trying to socially engineer a customer into installing WGA.
Oolite: Elite-like game. For Mac, Linux and Windows
Please, Slashdot submitters and admins, PLEASE -- give us the courtesy of defining uncommon acronyms the first time they are used. It is not good editorial practice to force the reader to look up unfamiliar terms on their own in order to understand the content.
You can argue that most Slashdotters should know what WGA stands for already -- but should we? This is one of the more Linux-centric sites on the internet. It's far from a given that we would all be familiar with a Windows-based authentication system, even among those of us that are Windows users.
You can argue that it only takes 5 seconds to slap the acronym into Google and find out what it means -- but that doesn't change the fact that the effort would be better made by the one than by the many. Ten thousand Slashdotters Googling the answer is a net loss of 13+ hours of time that could be better spent on other things.
Ever try 2000?
A pirated copy is still genuine, according to the makers themselves!
That's a great illustration, but the fact about frogs is, when it gets uncomfortable, they will jump out either way. Frogs allowing themselves to be boiled is an Urban Legend. But the illustration works somewhat. Surely someone who has already started down the MS road would not turn tail and run as fast as someone who has not yet made an operating system choice.
If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
Money is a suprisingly efficient motivator.
If the pirate knew everything that you and I know, including (1) how to install, configure, and use linux, and (2) how to recover all his important files and make them work in linux, then he might consider switching to linux full-time.
Unfortunately, I don't know the profile of the average windows pirate, but I would assume that he doesn't know the things that we know, and that retaining access to the files that are important to him and the other software (office, iTunes, digital camera, etc.) that he is used to - and may have paid for - is going to outweigh the cost of purchasing windows (which is like $88).
How does one move to one of these Media Access Control devices? Or do you mean Mac, as in "Macintosh Personal Computer"?
Spend $500-3000 to save $200? Not likely.
It goes from God, to Jerry, to me.
Oh yeah, tons of potential for the average gamer THERE. I roll my virtual eyes.
Uh... the average gamer will find a hack for their copy of XP, Turn off windows updates, and firewall the microsoft domain.
Non gamers, on the other hand who might be inclined to buy a new computer after microsoft decides to hold the one they have for ransom may very well be inclined to buy a mac. Especially as it will give him the satisfaction of giving the company that reached into his house and took his data hostage the one finger salute.
Frankly though I'm surprised MS would be stupid enough to disable XP BEFORE VISTA ships though. People would be more inclined to buy a NEW product when their computer demands money than to fork over money to use a product they've had for free for 4 years.
It's just a myth. Even frogs aren't that stupid. OTOH, it's a great metaphor. Anyone have any ideas for a good replacement?
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
The people who *knowingly* run illegal copies of Windows won't be affected by this in the slightest. These people have been cracking WGA since it came out, first with Javascript, then later with cracked DLL's. I'm sure there will be a crack for this within 24 hours of it being released (there always has been in the past), and these people will able to get it very easily. The only people that this will affect are 1) People who think they have a legal copy of Windows but really don't because whoever they bought it from screwed them, and 2) People with legal copies who either don't want to run WGA for some reason, or 3) People with legal copies who run WGA and it mistakenly identifies their machine as "not legit". In short, the "pirates" (their term) will continue on unaffected as they always have, while the "legitimate" users will get screwed.
A solution to the Linux pricing problem.
What's that? The Linux pricing problem?
Cost of Linux = Cost of Pirated Windows. As such, many, many, many, many home users continue to use Windows.
Bring up the cost of Windows?
Cost of Linux 35 percent of PC software is pirated. I'm guessing that Windows XP is highly represented in that group (of pirated software; i.e. at least 30% of worldwide Windows installs are not legal). If even 10% of that user base decides to switch to Linux rather than pay the Windows tax, it'll be a substantial marketshare boost.
And the remaining 90%? They might decide that the MSRP cost of Windows is too close to the MSRP of a brand new dual core Mac.
I'm thrilled. MS has ridden on piracy marketshare for far too long. I hope they do every thing they possibly can to stamp out software piracy, and I hope they succeed.
Opensource Zealots, take heart; Our strongest licenses are copyright based. Should we wish to see the GPL upheld, we should support upholding MS's copyrights. The beauty of the OpenSource ecosystem is far easier to explain to people when they can't get pirated software free or for a minimal $1. Although Free is about Freedom, not Beer, it's much easier to explain that to the layman when it is Free, as in Freedom AND Beer.
WhiteWolf666 an exBush supporter. All you new-school,compassionate,save the children Republicans can rot in hell
What he means is, "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
Oh, I've still got XP on a tablet. Too bad the inking and character recognition were better on Linux, or I'd switch that over too.
Qualitas edurus commercium, nullus penitus net rimor, nullus deus beneficium
Indeed it is.
Especilally to a user with a ten to fifteen years investment in Windows software and hardware to protect.
To him migration to Linux has all the appeal of root canal.
Frankly though I'm surprised MS would be stupid enough to disable XP BEFORE VISTA ships though. People would be more inclined to buy a NEW product when their computer demands money than to fork over money to use a product they've had for free for 4 years. You forget the whole point of a monopoly. Why make money forcing people to buy one product, when you could make more money forcing them to buy two?
You'd be surprised, I spoke to one guy who bought a new PC because he was having problems with malware!.... Really!
CN=poolmeister.OU=lurkers.CN=slashdot
...to be deployed in 3...2...1...
Are you frieking kidding me?
You never cook the whole frog. You usually just cook the legs, cos that's where the good stuff is at.
On top of which the frog should be dead and the legs sure as hell won't be alive since they're not attached to the frog.
Also, who boils frogs? that's so extremely common, only the homeless plebs do that. Everybody knows, fried frog legs are the best.
Pshh.
Liberty.
This cannot possibly be a good idea. Let me tell you about my WGA experience. I bought a legimate copy of WIndows XP Pro from Insight Computers in (about) 2002. Full copy (not an upgrade) and it cost me $300.00. About 6 weeks ago I came home to a notice on my computer saying that I might be the victim of piracy and that my copy of Windows wasn't genuine. I KNOW that it was. I bought it form a reputable vendor, I activated with MS, the whole thing. I searched Google, I read everything that I could find about why it would say it wasn't genuine when it was. I called Insight, I called MS. Any time I told anyone about my problem they IMMEDIATELY assumed that the copy wasn't genuine and that I was pirating software. We do a lot of business with Dell so I called the MS Rep with our Dell team and got the same thing. No one even considered the fact that this problem could be malware related or a problem with WGA. I was furious. I do not pirate software. Finally I found an obscure post on MS website that said something about deleting the WGA directory and rebooting to reset WGA. I did and haven't had the problem since. No one at MS pointed this out to me, I had to stumble on it myself after weeks of searching. I nearly threw the computer out and bought a mac. If anything lie this happens again, I will buy a mac. I can understand MS wanting to protect their investment but they really error on the side of caution. Incorrectly accusing their customers of piracy is not a good business move. And what will happen when the deadline passes and the malware triggers this same scenario?
Sort of like "Touché"?
"Adventure? Excitement? A Jedi craves not these things."
User: "You can't possibly attack us, we are peaceful and have no defenses!
Bill: "You prefer another target, a litigious target, then name the systems!"
Bill: "I grow tired of asking this, so it'll be the last time. Where are the cracked installations of Windows XP Professional Edition?"
User: "Pirates' PCs... they're on Pirates' PCs."
Bill: "You see, lord Ballmer? They can be reasonable. Continue the operation, you may update when ready."
User: "What?!"
Bill: "You're far too trusting. Pirate PCs are too remote for an effective demonstration, but don't worry; we will deal with your rebel friends soon enough!"
perl -e "eval pack(q{H*},join q{},qw{70 72696e74207061636b28717b482a7d2c717b343 637323635363534323533343430617d293b})"
In a contest between you and they, I'd suspect Microsoft is in the better position to understand the nature of the addiction they have created. And I'd feel safe saying that even if you yourself had succeeded in completely breaking your addiction to Windows, which I suspect you haven't.
Most people, most businesses are so hopelessly addicted to Windows that they literally can't even conceptualize their own survival without it. I'm always amused when I read the latest rant about a Windows vulnerability on an IE-only site, or read about some program manager publishing their "Linux Strategy" document as a PowerPoint chart.
Think of all the hundreds of thousands of Microsoft Office documents the average business has, or the potential millions of dollars worth of intellectual property and business intelligence those documents represent.
Now, even if they have the skill and determination to propose leaving Windows behind, think of the complexity of dealing with a customer base which might not be as skilled, or determined.
I suspect we may see a lot of people get pissed-off at Microsoft over this, temporarily. Then, as soon as they realize just how screwed they've allowed themselves to be, it's "how do I get a legitimate license again?"
The thing about things we don't know is we often don't know we don't know them.
I tell you, I came from Linux to Windows XP, and Windows is just as Strange, Scary, and Wrong as Linux was. However I keep using it because my laptop works better this way.
you should read everything on the internet as if it had "but I'm probably talking out of my ass" appended to it.
Let's not get stupid here. A "front-line tech-support drone" who gets paid $12 an hour to read the support script is somehow going to know what sort of top-secret plans Microsoft has for the next six months? I highly doubt it. It sounds more like the sort of thing that a helpdesk drone would say to try to persuade a clueless computer user to do things their way.
Then, of course, there's the fact that if you install WGA today on a pirated copy of Windows, all you get is the notification message that pops up. You don't get shut down, and you don't even get cut off from Windows security updates (which are truly the only updates that matter, and even they aren't that good). I find it very difficult to believe that Microsoft is going to go from "Hey, your copy of Windows doesn't look genuine, but you can still install our security updates" to "I don't know if your system is pirated or not because you haven't installed WGA, but even if it is a legitimate copy I'm just going to shut you down simply because I have no way of verifying it." Especially not in the span of 6 months.
Let's think about this for just a second. If this shutdown is a function of WGA, and you don't install WGA, then how are they going to a) know that you don't have WGA and b) shut down your PC? Assuming that you only install security updates to your copy of Windows (legitimiate or pirated), then it seems that the only way they can get this "remote killswitch" functionality is to hide it in a security update. You know, kinda like a Trojan horse. Which would of course be unethical at the very least, and most likely illegal. Especially if they killswitched a legally licensed copy of Windows who just didn't have WGA installed.
But hey, it's Microsoft. So let the FUDslinging begin.
And, you don't own anything, they've given you a license to use it... which as I mentioned above, they can change at any time.
Cheers.
Fresh installation with SP2 streamlined in.
Put this beast on a direct IP to the 'net with no updates. 5 minutes later, disconnect it. Run a virus scan. 5-10 viruses detected.
Put it behind a router with not NATing. Don't do any Windows Updates. Don't worry about a firewall, it's not important. 5 months later, disconnect it. Run a virus scan. 0 viruses detected.
Seriously.
My parents switched their ISP a while back, and in the course of getting their stuff working, I removed a $30 router that I'd placed there over a year earlier (firewall features DISABLED), not thinking anything of it (I mostly run Linux). They'd had AVG scanning every night, nothing detected over that whole time. Day or two later, I get a phone call. Yep, suddenly AVG is finding all kinds of crap.
Oops.
Point is, use Firefox and a $30 router and you can forget about updates entirely. Most (all? I've never seen one get through) of the no-interaction-required sorts of attacks are pretty fragile, and will break in this setup.
So yes, it is VERY possible to run an XP machine with no updates (hell, you can probably just run it stock without SP2) without issue. I'm sure that many people do this without realizing it.
So, unless WGA is included in SP2, lots of people will have no worries. It's not, right?
No... they won't need to migrate anything. Some fortune 500 company who didn't install windows correctly is gonna have all their computers shut off at once and MS is going to get sued like there's no tomorrow. And that'll pretty much be the end of WGA.
-=-=-=-=-=
I'd rather be flamed than ignored.
Oh shit, you're gonna get it now. MODBOOOOOMB! Hit the deck!
If it was only pirates having trouble, they might not.
OTOH, if you've been paying attention, you know a lot of legitimate users run into trouble too. When you're sitting there with a legitimate copy and the best MS support can tell you is buy another copy, that's a problem.
Umm, didn't you see that update Tuesday? I did. It installed itself except for the new EULA. At least the new EULA recinded several onerous bits the old one tricked me into agreeing to by masqerading as a normal security fix and hiding the bad parts deep within a morass of legalese (who knew that a deceptive "security fix" was going to take away so many rights?)
Anyhow, just FYI, WGA checks for updates and can install them without any user input. That's right--nothing. When I put "arbitrary code execution" in the story I submitted on this, folks laughed, but think about it: any auto-update function from an untrusted source *is* arbitrary code execution! They could send you a freaking "format the PC" program and your system, like a dumbass, would simply run it! Now, I *hope* they won't go that far, but how can we trust them? You can't. I won't play WoW for the same reason (their "warden" program may currently only snoop on a few things, but *nothing* prevents them from modifying that, and it's damned hard to reverse since it's only ever memory resident, etc. so only cheaters were monitoring it...).
You can say that I'm paranoid or whatever, but it's *my* computer and I sure as hell don't like giving untrustworthy people the ability to silently install software on it. For the same reasons, I will never support DRM. It's all about their ability to control my computer. I won't stand for it. It's mine and they can go screw themselves if they want to pretend otherwise.
"They stopped running those annoying, smug and arrogant PC versus Mac ads? God, I hope so. I can't believe those ads sold one Mac, though I could believe it turned off a lot of people."
I've had conversations about those ads with probably a dozen people - none of them Mac users; most are Windows people - and all of them LOVE them. A few of them have wondered aloud why Microsoft, with all its millions, can't produce engaging ads like that.
I wonder if maybe, just MAYBE, the Slashdot crowd isn't the target audience...?
<aside>My brother is an ad copywriter/director and has worked on some Microsoft campaigns. He tells me there are just too many people within MS that have to give their "thumbs up" before a campaign gets the go-ahead, which pretty much guarantees banality.</aside>
#DeleteChrome
Hello!
The pirates WON'T be the ones encountering this problem.
The folks running pirated corporate editions or counterfeit install keys? They already work around WGA as it is. They know the score and will not be affected in the slightest.
End result? Microsoft will alienate legitimate customers. They're taking cues from the RIAA in the worst possible way.
The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
They probably got tired of waiting.
So if you were playing EQ on a pirated copy of Windows, you just went into Evercrack withdrawal because EQ wouldn't load at all. That's a quick way to boost their sales. Most hardcore EQ players would sell their first born to keep playing. This is extremely annoying to say the least. I wonder what it will do to game companies that bundle the latest DirectX with their games to make sure you can play it on install. I can hear the tech support phones ringing now!
Why the hell would MS care if they move from a pirated version of Windows to something else?
windows stickyness.
Once you switch to mac, and start buying mac applications you might want to to use a mac at work, you might decide not to deploy exchange server because it won't work well with your mac, you might choose a pda with PalmOS instead of Windows Mobile 5 because Activesync won't sync to Mail.app, and when you launch your browser it will be safari not internet explorer, and you won't be taken to the MSN home page, and when you hit search you won't see MSN results. You'll probably rip your music to AAC or MP3 instead of WMA, etc.
Big whoop, they aren't making money either way.
The hell they aren't.
Why do you think dell pays like 15 bucks to install XP Home on a PC? Sure Microsoft wants to convert as many 'pirates' into paying customers as possible, but given a choice between having users run pirated Windows or Mac OS, Microsoft comes out way way ahead with pirated windows.
Their monopoly on the desktop feeds their search, advertising, applications, browser, and server divisions. Microsoft would be dead if they lost their desktop monopoly. Most of their products aren't priced competitively and most of them are not best of breed, but they perform well simply because of leverage they get from the desktop.
How many people do you know that use MSN search that do not use Internet Explorer?
Zero? Pretty close to it.
And if someone has critical data on a system running a pirated OS, I'm not inclined to feel much pity.
Who said "critical data". We aren't talking enterprises with pirate xp installs for servers here.
The average home user will have their vacation photos, some music, their resume, and so on. Its may not be "critical" but anyone would be pissed if microsoft tried to hold it hostage. Not to mention blocking you from doing online banking, chatting with friends, reading the news, listening to music, and playing solitaire.
then run the WGA crack that you got from here..G enuine_Advantage_WGA_v3_3_1_5_540_0_Taag
http://www.torrentspy.com/torrent/782179/Windows_
Most pirates, don't need to know anything about cracking/pirating other than "what bitorrent" is..
I have never knowingly pirated a commercial software program. Ever. And I have been using computers since 1982.
However, if this WGA thing turn out to be true (which honestly it may not), then I will have no qualms about starting. I built my own computer and paid retail for XP Pro. If they are going to screw it up, it will be the last dollar from me.
I never illegally downloaded music until I started having spyware and rootkits installed on my machine, now I never buy CD's under any circumstances.
Morally, I consider it fair compensation now. Treat me right, I treat you right. You fuck me, I fuck you. Not a pretty motto, but I've always lived by it and it has worked for me more often than it hasn't.
In 2004 I bought an Averatec laptop computer with XP Home pre-installed. I have been using it for 2 years. Just last weekend I had a WGA pop-up telling me that WGA had determined that my copy of Windows was "not genuine" and to click a box to "correct" it.
I did not click the box, and I used Tiny Personal Firewall to block the phoning home of WGA. I paid for the Windows on the machine, and I am not jumping through hoops to prove it. Now, only very select connections can use the Internet through the firewall (which can suck while trying to use Wi-Fi in the airport), and I have to make sure that it cannot possibly phone home.
My main concern is that they will find a way to make it "phone home" during boot, before the firewall loads.
In any event, if the copy is disabled, I am actually one of the few who will actually take the time out of my busy life to file a civil suit at my local courthouse. Everyone says they will do these things in internet dick-swinging contests, but I actually will. I may not win, but I will do it anyway.
Also, I will pirate the living shit out of Microsoft software.
Again, assuming this rumor us true, which it very well may not be.
If i'm going to do the time, i'm going to do the time. Period.
I should have read the EULA before I installed it, though. Now they own my soul.
-Eric
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
Why do people capitalize "MAC?" It's Mac, short for Macintosh. MAC means something else.
It's like those people who call it OS/X or OS-X. Where are they getting these magic hyphens and slashes from?
"Sufferin' succotash."
Ed Foster already wrote an article speculating on whether WGA is in fact being used to forcibly sunset WinXP.
3 /50236
See http://www.gripe2ed.com/scoop/story/2006/6/27/054
Personally, I think he's correct -- why else would WGA suddenly become a "required" part of any update?
Furthermore, why should WGA ever need to confirm that a copy is legit more than ONCE? if a given install was legit last week, how could it possibly become pirated next week?
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
Forget that.
I am a legitimate user of Windows. I know I am, because I bought a licenced copy from a reputable dealer. Thus, I figure, I don't need the WGA to *tell* me if I have a legitimate copy. I *do* have a legitimate copy.
And Microsoft doesn't get to know anything else about anything I do, or affect me. The idea that I can be held hostage because I don't want to trust software from Microsoft. Well, that's kind of crazy.
They can turn off my copy of Win2k?
wait a second... I'm thinking this only applies to that graphics and DRM add-on to Windows 2000... what was it's name again? oh yeah! Windows XP.
But seriously, folks; I just bought a Media Center Laptop for $$$$; I'm going to get around this problem by never letting microsoft.com near my machine, at least not until I can figure a way to get Win2k or Debian to run all the bells and whistles.
Why, yes, I AM a Pagan Libertarian.
No, you might as well buy a Mac ( or install bsd, linux, etc etc )
Anyone who didnt see this coming is either a fool or a moron.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
It smacks of MSFT needing to find a way to boost stagnant earnings and keep their quarterly numbers up and that's exactly what it is.
All they can do is squeeze existing users for a few more pennies and try to generate sales with the strong arm product activation requirements. The security package is one way to extract a few more dollars from your wallet, racheting up the EULA restrictions so you can't transfer Windows between machines you own is another, and trying to sweep in sales from those using a pirated copy of Windows just to play games, which is the only reason many of you want Windows around at all. I've seen similar tactics going on on the commercial side of the house as well. Many of my business customers are flat unhappy with MSFT license fees and restrictions.
It's an interesting spiral. The more people switching to open source, the more MSFT has to squeeze their remaining customers for revenue, which always pisses off a small fraction who then jump to OSS. Rinse, lather, repeat.
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
I think that going through with this would be to Microsoft's disadvantage.
Making people THINK they're going to go through with it, however...
I remember when XP first came out the people I knew who installed it were complaining that it turned itself off after they made a lot of changes... it thought it had been copied over to a new computer or something and so disabled itself until you called Microsoft and complained.
How much do you want to bet this turning the computer off thing won't work quite perfectly?
Besides, I wouldn't want my computer providing MS with a back door and calling them up every week anyway.
Others may have made similar points, but here's it is in a nutshell. Microsoft's claim to fame is that people don't know anything else. They are dependant upon Windows because they know that if they need help, most of the people they know use windows, and can't help with anything other than the few pieces of software that came prepackaged with their previous purchases. They do it because tech support personell are just looking for any excuse to say "not my problem", and if they find out you're not using Windows, hot damn, will their eyes light-up. In short, they are in the Windows camp because they have nowhere else to go.
If other operating systems start to creep their way out of the "niche audience" category, and into the "mainstream, yes, my freakin' grandmother has a copy (and no, i didn't install it for her)" category, then microsoft will soon find themselves competing again.
Right now, Windows' main competitor is piracy, which still gives them a monopoly. So, if half the world steals Windows, and the other half buys, then, no biggie; they can just charge double. But, if half the world uses the competition, they can't raise prices, for fear of losing the customers they have left.
OK, WGA, if installed, checks to see if your copy of windows is properly licensed.
Let's say, that my copy is not properly licensed.
I haven't installed WGA, because I know my copy is not properly licensed. WGA cannot notify MS that my copy is not licensed.
Windows does not currently contain any code that makes it "shut down" if WGA hasn't reported in. I know this because WGA has been available for quite some time, and my windows has not become inactive.
In order to achieve this, MS will have to DEPLOY some sort of update that that will do this.
Hell, if I can prevent WGA from being installed, what is to keep me from just NOT INSTALLING this new piece of code?
Where are they getting these magic hyphens and slashes from?
I'd tell you where they come from, but you'd probably never eat another one afterwards.
"Everything you know is wrong. (And stupid.)"
Moderation Totals: Wrong=2, Stupid=3, Total=5.
Ah, but isn't it obvious; the hyphens are from hyphenspace...
EXCELLENT JOKE.
Why does everyone seem to think Apple is better then Microsoft? They are one in the same; Apple is smaller, that's the ONLY reason you don't see Microsoft-esq BS coming out of them 24/7. I bet you 8,000$ that the second Macs become the main OS (computer?) they would become just as bad, if not worse, then Microsoft; only this time with control over the platform (can you imagen Microsoft owning Dell, Sony, HP, Gateway, etc, then making it impossible to build your own? That's the Apple of your dreams and my nightmare). OS monopoly isn't half as terrifying as platform monopoly. Anyone that thinks Apple is really better needs to think long and hard about them and Microsoft. Ask yourself, is Microsoft any different then Apple? Do you really think Apple will care to be "revolutionary" (I would debate them being so now, but that's not the point) if they were as big as MS? We already know they like their DRM like their beer; mixed in with everything. I know I am going to get modded troll, but oh well.
Great Intellect...
I would, but there's something about yelling "Oh, sex!" every time that I just can't help but love.
I'm no lawyer, but the first question that comes to my mind is this:
Seems like just about every update from windows update has a click-through licence. Don't know what's in them, I've never read one. But, by definition, a click through gives you the choice of agreeing (installing the update), or disagreeing (and continuing to use the non-updated software under the original, unmodified EULA licence).
But the description of WGA in the original post sounds like it's a mandatory update, i.e. either you accept it, or you stop running windows. If there's also a click-through licence associated with it, that's equivalent to Microsoft saying: "You must agree to modify the licence agreement, or we won't uphold our side of the original licence (i.e. let you use the software you paid for)."
Isn't this coercing acceptance of a contract under threat of unilaterally breeching an earlier contract? How is it legal?
I suppose it's possible that WGA is an exception to the rule, and doesn't have it's own click-thru licence. But that seems highly unlikely. I've yet to see _any_ update from windows update that doesn't require a new click through.
Anyone know the answer?
If they weren't already connecting their MACs to the network how the hell else were there any computers on it? Using Econet or something?
(look up what a MAC is, then look up what a Mac is. You might be surprised)
"Mac" is an abbreviation of Macintosh, not an acronym like PC is for Personal Computer.
MAC however, is an acronym for Media Access Control, as in MAC address in networking.
Sorry... pet peeve there.
legitimate users run into trouble too
That is such pre-9/11 thinking.
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- - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.