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When Will OSS Financial Apps Catch Up?
RomulusNR asks: "One sticking issue preventing small groups such as small business and nonprofits from wholly migrating to Linux, or even open-source application software, is the sub-adequate feature scope of accounting applications. QuickBooks is the standard, easier for non-technical people to learn, and is free or extremely cheap for nonprofits, and comes built-in with nearly every tax form and chartered accounting reports imaginable. Open source software seems like a natural fit for nonprofits, but if they can't fulfill their legal financial obligations with it, it's a non-starter. Add to that the fact that most people are not terribly tech savvy, and some have spent a lot of time learning the few aspects of QuickBooks that are most relevant to them; retraining on a totally different app is not a practical endeavor. Is there any hope that the field of OSS accounting apps will catch up to the practical needs of those who would theoretically best benefit from them?"
The linked article is from Newsforge which, like Slashdot, is owned by OSTG.
My fiance and I use crossover office with quicken. To me it shouldn't be that hard, another option is wine. Yes you could write a finacial app, but migrating books from exsisting apps would be a bear as well. There are options, its just none are for the non tech savvy. Maybe in the near future? :D
-PB_TPU_40 The trick to flying is to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
I would imagine that most programmers are trying to forget about taxes for most of the year. However, we are constantly writing documents, browsing the Internet, etc. There is not much incentive for most programmers to dedicate time to writing financial software, unfortunately.
Financial apps are also not of major interest to developers - not only they require the attention to detail noted above, but attention to boring detail. Most developers are interested in development, not the nuts and bolts of small business accounting or something similar. As a result, I think it will be a very long time, if ever, before Linux "catches up." Of course, if more people were writing these apps instead of waiting for others to write them or writing about why others haven't written them, the choices would be much better.
I can see it now:
... maybe some cool drawing software? Or security tools to keep out hax0rz? No, no ... wait, I've got it! Accounting!"
"Well, I'm really interested in starting an open-source project. A game? Naaah
I always thought it was one of the acknowledged shortcomings of open source stuff that it concentrated all the work in the high-profile, high-geek-factor areas?
there is no need to sign your posts. this isn't usenet. your username is right there above your post. stop it.
Open source software will likely never catch up to Quicken / Quickbooks / MS Money.
Even if the basic software functionality was created, you still won't be able to connect with your bank via the software. You won't be able to download cancelled checks, write new ones/pay bills, or any of these other functionalities. You won't be able to because the bank gets a nice kickback from the financial software publishers to open their systems up to them, and the bank has essentially no incentive to work to open it up.
Publishers now have online collaboration tools for this stuff.. open source never will catch up. At most it'll be useful for low-complexity personal accounting, nothing on the scale that satifies enterprise needs.
-Cliff
As soon as you write it.
Probably just a little after you start writing all those AAA game titles for linux.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
We could get a decent framework easily enough. But tax rules and the like aren't written by devs- you write a rules engine and hand hold real accountants through using it.
I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
However, if you read the linked article you'll see that there are actually several good accounting programs available, including some "just as good as -- or possibly better than -- QuickBooks."
It's not about lack of software, it's about "network affects" and the irrationally high premium many people but on avoiding change.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
I can see it now:
... maybe some cool drawing software? Or security tools to keep out hax0rz? No, no ... wait, I've got it! Accounting!"
"Well, I'm really interested in starting an open-source project. A game? Naaah
I always thought it was one of the acknowledged shortcomings of open source stuff that it concentrated all the work in the high-profile, high-geek-factor areas?
Actually, accounting software is really interesting from the code angle. There's all sorts of neat stuff you can do with the numbers.
Mod me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
Do you want accounting software for Linux?
Or do you want open-source accounting software?
Your question is worded so that it only make sense if we pretend that the only software available for linux is open source.
I maintain a FAQ on a financial forum about open source financial applications. It is mostly geared towards personal users, but there are links and information to business-focused applications as well. There are non-profits & small businesses who do use F/OSS!
There isn't an open source QuickBooks clone. But many F/OSS applications do have features which QuickBooks lack (and vice versa, of course). Rather than looking for a "clone," one should clearly define their requirements & look for the app or apps that may fit those needs. If some are "close," money and/or labor can be spent refining the F/OSS applications. If all are far from your requirements (such as a requirement like "I need software which does exactly what QuickBooks does & has the exact same interface"), then suck it up & purchase QuickBooks. It doesn't cost an arm and a leg! If you find your organization doing this a lot, then re-evaluate your software selection practices--alternative software usually doesn't mean cloned software (whether F/OSS or proprietary) & you will never be able to benefit from very good software which is monetarily cheaper, uses open formats, and is functional.
Slightly off-topic, but there are a lot of business areas ignored in the OSS world. Finance is also among things like inventory control and warehouse management solutions. I'm sure there is plenty of custom code running on Linux or BSD boxes out there - but a good option doesn't exist unless it's in Windows. I'm sure there are other business itches that could be scratched.
I went to a presentation by a GNUCash guy a couple months back. They're retooling their backend as SQL to make development easier. This isn't an answer to the question but is probably a necessary first step for gaining developers.
They actually do have some fairly complex accounting in the current versions.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
There have always been applications for Unix.
Oracle, which runs on Linux, has lots.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oracle_Applications
So, what is it that you are after? Is it free financial applications? Is it applications for small business and individuals? Anyway, if there are applications that cost money, then the playing field is level. It costs the same for these applications on either platform.
sweet, you write all of the "deposit" stuff and I'll write all the "transfer to secret offshore account" stuff. THAT would be interesting indeed.
...what ways, in particular, is it insufficient? (I'm actually asking out of curiosity rather than being rhetorical -- I've never used it.)
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
I know that as an OSS developer there are a few reasons that I wouldn't start up or contribute to an open source financial program. The most obvious, and perhaps the most common reason is that accounting software isn't really fun to write- or perhaps its less fun to wright than other things. It's not as though you can really write a new algorithm to figgure up taxes- it's pretty much just the way the IRS wants to do it.
Related to this last point is that there is a lot of obligation related to writing financial software and as a free software developer I really don't want that hanging over my head. Even with the standard "not fit for any purpose" disclaimer, I would be afraid that I would have someone coming after me if some bug in some code I wrote meant that each company paid a few million less in taxes than they were supposed to.
The thing is, the code isn't the hard part of writing financial software, it's dealing with all of the law code stuff.
I think that the best way to bring this sort of software to Linux is to focus on getting companies to port their software, or getting Wine to support it.
Even moreso than with other sorts of software, I don't think that web applications are viable because of security reasons.
Famous Last Words: "hmm...wikipedia says it's edible"
you still won't be able to connect with your bank via the software. You won't be able to download cancelled checks, write new ones/pay bills, or any of these other functionalities
What about OFX? I can download my bank info in XML format, and have been able to do so for years. So, the banks have already "opened their systems", probably enough so that this isn't the problem with OS financial apps.
As for bill-pay and other functionalities, most banks of any size probably already have either web-based applications or "free client" applications for their customers to interact with their systems. But, I interpreted the meaning of "financial applications" to be more about the internal systems of the business, like general ledger, payables and receivables, etc. For those systems, the updating issues (tax and accounting rule changes) already discussed are indeed tedious.
Now I think that many of you are overlooking the bigger picture that indeed there are much larger Open Source financial packages such as Compiere (paid support available), ERP5 and ofbiz.org (which has a paid support beta program for their financial module which will be open sourced)h p
http://compiere.org/
http://www.erp5.org/
http://www.ofbiz.org/
http://www.opensourcestrategies.com/ofbiz/index.p
Don't say there aren't any such programs until you've checked out:
http://www.freshmeat.net/
I don't use Linux.
Or do you want open-source accounting software?
I'm probably not going to use that either.
Your question is worded so that it only make sense if we pretend that the only software available for linux is open source.
Linux, open sores -- WHO CARES? Either way, I'm not using it.
Listen p*ssy. I'm sure your the same homo that posted earlier about alf's boner and you just want to remain anonymous fo
"I say "probably never" not because I'm a troll, but rather because you have to consider the nature of financial applications: they're difficult to write and require innumerable persnickety design detail to get right."
Wouldn't Table Oriented Programming be a way to handle that aspect in a simple fashion?
http://www.sql-ledger.com/
Great Perl-based web app. We're using it to replace our foxpro-based accounting app. We looked at upgrading our existing accounting app and it would of cost us almost 6 digits. We've been converting to SQL-Ledger with great success.
Having the source available is bonus. (And having a perl developer on the payroll is also good) So far we've done UPS WorldShip integration, and we're planning a barcoded inventory. We will soon be integrating VendorNet support for a few of our customer.
It's a very stable app, and I can't speak enough great things about it.
I've had two versions of QuickBooks Pro. Presently, version 2004. I've tried on several occations to get Quickbooks to work under Wine. Along the way, I've heard of people having various levels of success, particularly if they first install it on Windows and then move the files over to the fake windows drive under WINE. However upon reviewing this thread on Slashdot, it dawned on me that there is another huge name in the accounting business. Peach Tree. So I went on over to the AppDB at winehq.com and looked up PeachTree. I was stunned to see only one person had filed a report about it. It looks like version 2005 works fairly well under WINE as reported here:http://appdb.winehq.org/appview.php?versionId =3817
Now I know it isn't Open Source, but could we sway Peach Tree to make a Linux version using winelib. We can point to the recent port of GoogleEarth as a recent success story. Or maybe we could ask PeachTree to open up their code in exchange for publicity and a huge jump in market share.
There is GNUCash,
KMyMoney
http://kmymoney2.sourceforge.net/index-home.html
Programmers may be deluded enough to work for free as part of a misguided children's crusade, but financial experts (tax experts, accountants, etc) do NOT work for free. OSS works for generic programming projects, but not when domain knowledge is required, because those that have that knowledge want to be paid for their labor.
The original title of my post was "How does FSF do its 990?" It's fair to argue that the learning/adapting curve would not be terribly steep to do chartered accounts in an alternate software, considering the ongoing learning curve of QuickBooks in the first place. But one of the killer features of QuickBooks is that it can do tax forms for you, and by that I don't just mean 1040{A,X,EZ}, but specific-purpose ones (such as 990). This is one feature I think a lot of groups and their probably-non-techie treasurers take great advantage of.
Terrorists can attack freedom, but only Congress can destroy it.
I'm a CPA who works in IT auditing. From an accounting and tax perspective, US-GAAP (Generally Accepted Accounting Principles) and the tax code can be very complex. On top of that, there is a GAAP for every country, and there is even an attempt to create international standards. In addition, there are specifics for non-profits and government entities (government accounting is very backwards compared to private business accounting).
I doubt there is a volunteer group with enough programming and accounting skills to write OSS accounting and tax software. I have dabbled in programming and tax is definitely not my strong suit. Remember too that for the big companies, they use systems like Oracle Financials, SAP, etc. Many of these run on Linux or in some sort of *NIX environment. Tons of companies also still keep their General Ledger (G/L) on internally developed mainframe or AS/400 style systems. As other posters have said, there is a lot of money to be made writing a good system and selling it. The flip-side to that coin is that the end-user customer/business has a lot to lose (money, non-compliance with regulations, other reporting requirements, etc.) from having something half-way put together or something that is entirely wrong.
"Extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice. Moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." --Barry Goldwater
I run a one-man software development company in Australia. I've used Quicken Small Business Edition for the past 10 years or so. I don't like it but I've yet to find anything to replace it. Each year Quicken sends me a flyer with a discount for upgrading to version X+1. Each year, I say I'll try to find something else. In then end I go back to Quicken (either with the upgrade or just keeping my current version).
I've tried GnuCash - with version 2.0 approaching, it looks pretty good. But it's not nearly as slick as Quicken. Other alternatives are attractive for various reasons but have other problems.
My needs are very simple! I'd like multi-user access (Quicken doesn't offer this either - GnuCash may to a certain extent but it's not 100%), suitable reports for the Australian Tax Office (I know I can customise my own), fast to open and save its data files (GnuCash is very slow with 20 years of data - the multi-user requirement probably covers this because it uses Postgres), and it's go to be quick to enter invoices, payments etc. (GnuCash is horrible!). I'd prefer cross-platform and/or FOSS. If I'm going to move, it will be to something that has an open format for its data files.
Does anybody have any clues?
Graham
'Mono' and 'Java'.
There is your key for getting application penetration on Linux and Windows.
-Rick
"Most people in the U.S. wouldn't know they live in a tyrannical state if it walked up and grabbed their junk." - MyFirs
Wait.. so you mean its not our fault? We're off the hook? Ok back to what you were doing everybody. Phew That was a close one.
High-profile, cool stuff like databases and compilers. Huh.
Well, on the other hand, I suppose writing a database or a (good) compiler does have some heavy, heavy geek cred.
"Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped." --Elbert Hubbard (1856-1915)
exactly. Accounting software is neither sexy nor ubergeeky, so you're never gonna see people jumping at the chance to write it for free. Plus it's large and complex, so you're not likely to see a single obsessive genius crank it out, either.
there is no need to sign your posts. this isn't usenet. your username is right there above your post. stop it.
ARE YOU KIDDING ME> When my bank and Credit cards interface with QUICKBOOKS. My Account uses Quickbooks. I click a button and all my accounts update automatically from the web, Bank accounts and charge cards. So I don't really care if something else is free when it cost me more then the software cost in time and a bookkeeper just to input the data.
OMG Ponies!!! with Glitter!!!! I miss Pink
The SQL Ledger portal offers a double-entry accounting package, supported by a Postgres backend. I've found it to be relatively feature-rich.
What got me started using GnuCash was the documentation. No kidding. I was absolutely bored on a flight with a Windows laptop, and decided to boot Knoppix just to fiddle around. Discovered GnuCash and started reading what I thought was just a help file or some tutorial on using the software. Wow, it taught me how to use the double-entry accounting system, the difference between Assets, Liabilities and Equity, and organized my thinking in how to think about money. I think whoever wrote the GnuCash docs deserves kudos. Wait, lemme see ...
Here we go:
Carol Champagne
Email: carol@io.com
Chris Lyttle
Affiliation: GnuCash Documentation Team
Email: chris@wilddev.net
Jon Lapham
Affiliation: GnuCash Documentation Team
Email: lapham@extracta.com.br
Many thanks, Carol, Chris and Jon.
If you haven't tried tracking your own finances, give it a whirl. I found, to my surprise, that it not only gave me a sense of power to know everything about my money (I learned a few surprising things about my spending), but it actually made it enjoyable to be stingy. The less I splurged, the better I felt because I could see the effect of my money being saved. It sure beats seeing how much disk space I saved by compressing my files.
I did end up having to spend about 20-30 hours writing a Python program to help massage my GnuCash files; thank goodness GnuCash uses a completely transparent XML format. (A true geek would probably have been able to do it in half the time.) This is because, I have to admit, I use GnuCash the lazy way.
What's supposed to happen is that, every day before I climb into bed, I enter all the transactions I made that day: $1.49 for the hamburger, $35.18 for the book I bought, $999.99 for the tank of gasoline, etc. Later that month, I download my bank statement and credit card statement from my bank's web site (QFX/OFX format), and import it into GnuCash. GnuCash checks that the statement matches with what I've entered, and marks each entry as reconciled.
Well, I have better things to do than to enter transactions every day. So, instead, I just let GnuCash do it for me by importing my bank statements and credit card statements. GnuCash says for each transaction: "What's this?? $1.49 from 'MCDONALDS FOODLIKE SUBSTANCE CORP'? I never saw this entry before!" and so on for each entry. My Python program looks at the entry description to figure out where it should be categorized; e.g. if it matches "(?i).*mcdonald'*s.*", then it classifies it under the "fast food, unhealthy" account. And so I can see exactly how much I've spent for groceries, transportation, entertainment, etc.
I did try KMyMoney, since I am a KDE fan (thank you to KStrauser for pointing it out), but I found GnuCash to be a more mature application. Incidentally, my wife bought Microsoft Money, tried it out but found it confusing, couldn't think of a good reason why that program kept wanting to connect to the Internet (blocked by ZoneAlarm), and decided not to trust it.
I agree with my sibling poster that Mandrake is no longer a great distro to use. I used it previously, and have switched to Ubuntu Dapper where I happily compute away, really using the desktop rather than having to tinker with it. So, load up your k/Ubuntu (it's a live CD now, for those of you clinging to Windows) and give GnuCash a whirl.
Umm... did I go a bit off topic?
404555974007725459910684486621289147856453481154 in hex is "You sank my Battleship?"
[GPG key in journal]
I'd say sql-ledger but I'm not convinced getting the data migrated would be simple.
Deleted
Believe it or not, there's a small business who recently hired me to get them out of the mess that is FileMaker 5.0 -- if that, I think the majority of their machines run 4.0. I basically told them that to recreate their FileMaker database as anything relational (which they understand and want) will take about the same amount of time, whether I do FileMaker 8.0 or something else. Chances are, I'll take something like Glom or Rekall, maybe even Gnu Enterprise, create their database in that, and extend it.
I don't know if it'll do taxes, but it will do everything else. And I'll probably GPL all my work, too.
This is what Open Source is all about -- when you figure a system like this will probably cost you several thousand dollars anyway, why not pay a programmer to do it for you? It may end up cheaper, and it certainly means you can hire other contractors to mess with it later.
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
Actually, I agree with this.
n for them. If you can't do that, IMO you're a non-starter.
At least as I see it, unless a piece of software interfaces with my bank, it's not worth anything. Once you've used software that just sucks the transactional data directly from your bank and dumps it into your ledger, does all your reconciliation automatically, etc., etc., you can never go back. Ever.
It's the sort of thing that's valuable enough that it would be worth keeping a dedicated PC sitting around to do nothing else, if I had to use computers that couldn't run the package that did it.
From a small-business perspective, it saves hours of work a week, and in some cases might be the difference between just having the business owner do all the books themselves and hiring someone to keep track of receipts/bills/whatever (or perhaps more likely, hiring another regular employee so that they can devote their time to keeping track of the books).
As I understand it, GNUCash will download bank transactions from banks in Europe, because they use a standardized protocol for it. But here in the U.S., the de facto standard is the system used by Quicken, and it's all proprietary or similarly hobbled, thus no Free solutions that will do it. If anyone else can substantiate what the story is, I'd be interested.
But anyway, I agree -- a "general ledger" program that requires the user to input every transaction is not going to satisfy most people anymore. That might have been impressive 10 or 20 years ago, but what most people who use Quicken or Quickbooks want and expect is something that will integrate with their bank, get all their data, and do the balancing/reconciliation/reporting/tax-preparatio
That said, I don't think it's what's keeping people from transitioning to Linux: keeping Quicken going requires that you have ONE Windows PC, somewhere in a corner someplace. It's not the sort of thing that stops you from migrating a business, if you really wanted to switch. (How many businesses only have one computer? Not very many, and the ones that do, aren't very significant.) What I think is keeping people on Windows is inertia, pure and simple. Linux is different, people hate things that are different. You could have replacements for every application on the entire Windows platform and people would still find SOMETHING to keep them from switching, in order to rationalize their basic fear of leaving their comfort zone. The problem isn't that Linux doesn't have application x, the "problem," to a lot of people, is that Linux is not Windows. As long as Linux is not Windows, they will always find reasons not to switch to it. I call these people idiots, but they're a large percentage of the population.
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
Echoing the sentiments of others, I'd say it's about as likely as having a company which does Open Source Contracting where you give them your specifications and they crank out code under an open source license, to spec, and you get it all for free.
To answer your pedantry, I would be looking for open source. It just so happens that if I'm in the mindset of trying to introduce F/OSS into the small-nonprofit world, then that mindset would almost certainly also be inclined towards Linux.
I know someone will come up with a dozen examples, but really, I think one would be hard pressed to find broadly useful open source software that only has a Windows port.
Terrorists can attack freedom, but only Congress can destroy it.
I guess now I know why exactly the tax code is so complicated. So as to stimulate the economy.
Terrorists can attack freedom, but only Congress can destroy it.
IMO financial applications are the number one sample why the Linux desktop hasn't gotten more than a few percents market share. Can you really imagine an ordinary dentist ever use GnuCash on his Windows box? Or a carpenter, or a house wife? Can you really think that such people go out, buy or install Linux on their computers? No that won't happen, not until the art of writing FOSS has changed dramatically.
. pdf).
That said financial FOSS applications will only become possible when they are true cross-platform, when they are available on Windows and MacOS as well. Yet that's not sufficient, they also have to look native and they have to feel native on any platform. Else people, who use computer as tools and not as gadgets, won't use them.
Ordinary people don't look with the eyes of a fan, the look with the eyes of an annoyed worker who wants it task done as fast as possible. None of the so far mentioned applications look acceptable in their eyes. At the current state none written in Java or with GTK will satisfy these people. The only choice which produces acceptable results are using the commercial QT or the free wxWidgets toolkit. It may sound harsh but that's the case, just listen to the complains these people bring up against FOSS applications (or read http://www.osdl.org/dtl/DTL_Survey_Report_Nov2005
Yet looking acceptable is only one step towards broad acceptance, the other step is feel acceptable. Sorry, a FOSS application following the Gnome UI guidelines does not feel acceptable on Windows, MacOSX, KDE, etc. If you port a Gnome application to another platform you have to take care of all the little details which are different, which annoy users when the don't fit. These little details are listed in the only cross-platform guidelines wyoGuide (http://wyoguide.sf.net/).
To summarize, to make a FOSS financial application successful you have to follow these simple steps:
- Design the application cross-platform, then you get enough market share.
- Write it with an acceptable look anywhere, use QT or wxWidgets.
- Care for acceptable feel anywhere, follow the cross-platform guidelines wyoGuide.
O. Wyss
See http://wyoguide.sf.net/papers/Cross-platform.html
So you can avoid such re-typing of information. The GnuCash files can also be converted to QIF which your accountant should be able to read.
Deleted
It's time to take a look at SQL-Ledger in that case. I would list the features here, but it would probably take all day. Suffice to say that for a system which can handle invoicing, inventory, reporting, quotations, POS, customer and supplier tracking, multiple currencies, templated documents (in HTML and LaTeX), etc. it does everything my business requires and then some. There's even a number of working online demo's, so you can try it out with almost zero effort. IMNSHO it is a very high quality system and a beacon for business-ready OSS apps.
Burns: We're building a casino!
McAllister: Arrr. Give me 5 minutes.
It's not clear to me what you want. You will probably never get a complete set of financial desktop apps you get on the PC; they are an anachronism. You will likely see more and more open source web/server-side applications that you can install locally.
In the past, the development of such apps has been hampered by the predominance of proprietary standards and formats, but that has been changing. The more the industry moves to open formats and XML (and they do, e.g., OFX), the more open source financial apps you're going to see.
Have some patience; open source is not about being first. Historically, it has taken a decade or two after an application became feasible that the open source application actually arrived. Since high quality open source desktops and open financial standards are a recent phenomenon, it may take a while still, but it will happen eventually.
I'd prefer cross-platform and/or FOSS. If I'm going to move, it will be to something that has an open format for its data files.
i d=15634627), especially wxWidgets is quite well suite for small ISVs.
[OFFTOPIC]
As you prefer cross-platform SW and develop your own software you might look at my message (http://ask.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=189954&c
[/OFFTOPIC]
O. Wyss
See http://wyoguide.sf.net/papers/Cross-platform.html
It will catch up later. As with EMACS, Shells, Desktops, CLI Tools, GUI Apps and all the rest. But when it does it will be there to stay.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
That said, I don't think it's what's keeping people from transitioning to Linux:
It's the reason one of my two Windows systems at home is still running Windows, and a source of frustration for me.
I've moved our laptop from Windows to Ubuntu. It's an old beast that was running W98SE, so it made sense to move to a modern OS. My wife has taken to it and for the most part (we have some problems with Firefox not displaying properly and not downloading necessary extensions, but that's another gripe) is quite happy with it.
I want to migrate her WinME system to Ubuntu as well, but she uses Quicken. I don't care to mess with Wine, so we're sticking with Windows indefinitely.
Here's what I'd need on a Linux financial system:
- Ability to download from my banks.
- All the reporting tools of Quicken; seeing where our money goes has changed our spending habits considerably.
- The ability to import Quicken data. We have years of it, I'm not willing to throw it out just to go FOSS.
- Multi-user friendly. Because we have two PCs with Quicken, our data resides on the file server. I've looked at a couple of FOSS offerings to see if they'd be sufficient, and all but one would not work with two users at all.
120 characters for a sig? That's bloody useless.
That was not the GP point at all. CrossOver Office already has the ability to run Quicken and if Linux continues increasing its desktop market share at some point they will release a native port. So if not having Quicken is "preventing small groups such as small business and nonprofits from wholly migrating to Linux" then it seem to be fairly well covered.
However if your point is "When Will OSS Financial Apps Catch Up" there is a LOT further to go. Whilst pure OSS is a worthy goal, in the short term it doesn't have to be all or nothing.
Linux Canada has an open source business accounting package called Quasar.
Quicken doesn't keep me from Linux, but it does keep me on Windows. I'm not a business, I'm an individual, and I don't have room for more than one desktop. Yes, I could dual-boot, but it causes additional hassle and "overhead" to do so, especially if I want things to "just work".
Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
I may have missed it but what about http://www.moneydance.com?
Design the application cross-platform Check
Write it with an acceptable look anywhere Check (my opinion)
Care for acceptable feel anywhere Check (once again my opinion)
Oh, and it does all those nice things like automatically import bank statements, brokerage statements, tracks stock portfolios. It isn't FOSS but it's there and from my limited experience has everything Quicken or Money can offer.
I believe the newer versions of Inuit's software simply use OFX. From gnucash's features page.
"Improved Import Transaction Matching
The development of OFX and HBCI support has also resulted in an improved transaction matching system that more accurately recognizes duplicate transactions during file import."
With bookkeeping I completely understand your reluctance to switch, just pointing out that Gnucash is technically pretty much there when it comes to replacing ms money, quickbooks etc. The difficulty as you point out is learning it's foibles and how it does things. It also has excellent documentation btw, a whole tutorial on how to do double entry bookeeping.
Deleted
sure lots of hobbyist geeks programming in their basements are eager to implement financial software in their spare time...
some apps simply don't have enough sex appeal...
I don't feel like it...
Plus it's large and complex, so you're not likely to see a single obsessive genius crank it out, either.
Don't count on it. I've been working on an accounting system on and off for a few years now. It's just now starting the coding stage. And I have a feeling it'll regress into design at least one more time before I finally get the damn thing coded.
My motivation was my intense hatred for the idiocy of Peachtree and my bewilderment at how their software could possibly suck so hard and yet be so popular. It seems that's just the way the software industry works.
You're new here, so let me help you with this one:
Q: When will OSS Financial Apps Catch Up?
A: When it becomes a big enough itch to scratch.
Seriously, just because YOU need an application for Linux that doesn't exist, doesn't mean there's a developer out there who is interested in writing one.
You might talk to your vendors who write applications like TaxCut, Quicken, MS Money and so on and ask them if they'll port one of theirs to Linux. Linux is still developed in the spare time of thousands of programmers and community volunteers. They do it because its fun, or because it solves a problem they have.
Once YOU start telling them what THEY should be doing with their spare time, they're going to find something else to do instead.
Try sending a few thousand dollars off to a developer and ask them to write one, or modify the closest alternative. Encourage them somehow. Just telling them that you need it to get off of Windows isn't enough. That doesn't pay the bills, or the spare time needed to write, debug, fix, document, package and distribute an application of this size and magnitude. We're not talking about wallpaper rotaters here, we're talking about a mathematically-complex, financial application.
More power to you! I'd gladly switch off Quicken if I possibly could. That thing is total ass. I'll be rooting for you. :)
there is no need to sign your posts. this isn't usenet. your username is right there above your post. stop it.
The problem with fiscial software is that the domain experience might be largely lacking on the part of open source developers in this area. I work at a Fortune 500 company that does finical transaction software and would love to under take a project like this to raise visibility and help the developers here continue to sharpen their skills via the code review process.
And that's the real beauty of OSS and while it will continue to expand. This is why they talk about commoditization of software development, and the elimination of the shrink wrap product. We need continued discussion on where it is lacking to encourage developers to expand the scope!
-Todd
-Todd
Put down the sig, and step away from the computer.
I used Quicken for many years. It's a good product. I paid bills and handled bank transactions via Quicken and that worked well. I even ran Quicken on Linux via Crossover Office without problems.
I quit using Quicken because they started forcing me to upgrade each year. No technical reason to require the upgrade. Their "upgrades" are cosmetic--to generate income and serve no other purpose.
I was quite satisfied with all the basic features and functions of the earlier Quicken. The "upgrades" were useless to me. I don't mind paying for something I want, but I refuse to give Intuit the power to force me to buy their useless upgrades
Went with GnuCash. It is missing features I'd like, but I have control over my software and finances, so it's well worth it.
Have you looked at MYOB?
I took a look at their Accounting Plus package a while back which offered a multi-currency option I was keen on and I thought it looked pretty user friendly. I think multi-user capability is tied to Filemaker - you have to have a multi-user Filemaker app installed.
Its Win/Mac cross-platform, no idea what data format it uses.
Have you ever (EVER) tried Quickbooks? in comparison to Quickbooks, SQL-Ledger is slow, cumbersome, incomplete, God awful web interface, doesn't interface with banks, doesn't interface with payroll services, doesn't interface with Quickbooks or the accounting firms that use it! Does SQLLedger offer any support to third party applications like scanners, RFID, cash drawers, credit card terminals, ATM interfaces?
LaTeX? LaTeX??? ANY application that uses or requires the user to use LaTeX is out of the question. It's 2006! It's the new millennium! LaTeX indeed.
Quickbooks is Windows ONLY! The Pro version is $170 and the Premier version is $335. That's NOTHING to a real business and NOTHING else even comes close to what Quickbooks offers!!!
SQL-Ledger indeed!
This isn't an answer to the question but is probably a necessary first step for gaining developers.
I read this too quickly and thought it said gaming developers. Just imagine: GNUCash as a first-person shooter! Battle the evil Dr. Overdraft and his mutant zombie army of Auditors! Rescue the voluptuous Ambrose Fairfax and her small business from Prince Evictor of the Landlords! Gather strength, wisdom and accountancy weapons (paper shredder, etc.) and maybe a tax lawyer or two!
Okay, enough. It's old already.
If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
Hmm..I can't remember the last time I actually opened a bank statement or balanced/reconciled my checkbook....
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
I have recently released the first stable version of Buddi, an open source (GPL) Java program made specifically for home finance and budgeting. While it does not do everything (and it is not meant to do everything - one of the design goals was to keep it simple), I think it is coming along nicely. It is steadily increasing in the SF.net rankings, and as of now has almost 1000 downloads. Give it a shot, and see how you like it! http://buddi.sourceforge.net/
I use MYOB with Wine on Ubuntu and it works fine. MYOB is an excellent double-entry accounting package for small businesses, equivalent to Quickbooks with the added benefit of using multiple currencies. It doesn't have as pretty an interface as QB, though. It works with Wine, with a few annoyances (nothing critical though). I do think that it would benefit either Quicken or MYOB to invest in a Linux version which would make them the defacto "standard" for small-business accounting under Linux. Businesses running Linux would be happy to pay for the app, and even if it was OSS and available as a free download for the geeks and personal usage, businesses would still pay for a license in order to get support. Whoever is first would face no competition and would be able to be the first mover. While Linux only represents a fraction of the desktop market, it is growing and will continue to do so especially with city governments and federal ministries worldwide making the switch to Linux. That has a ripple effect on small businesses too. In my opinion, for Linux to prosper on the desktop, the key is to get businesses to adopt it. Once people use Linux at their place of work, they'll be willing to install it on their desktop at home. That's how many people got started with Windows and are unwilling to switch to anything else. And business can still make money off of Linux apps, because businesses are willing to pay for support (as long as the cost are competitive), upgrades, and the assurance that their software will continue to work. At the same time, releasing it as OSS means cost savings in bug fixing and community contributions, which benefits the business funding the software development, and benefits the individuals who want to download and run it without support. You won't make Microsoft millions that way, but you can do well while doing good.
Impossible is nothing.
How will you ever know if yuor checkbook doesnt match your bank statement if you havnt done the figures yourself. It's great that the data is available...I use gnucash and my accounts never add up until I go online and look at my bank records and realize I lost the reciept from chipotle and thats why my checking account is $8.05 short...but I want to be in control. If I go to see why they dont match and realize that the restaurant typed in the wrong number for the tip to be charged then it is possible for me to fix the situation where they charged me $12.50 instead of $1.25 while I would not have noticed it at all if I was just using the data the bank feeds me (same goes for errors actually made by the bank).
Simply importing the data to quicken rather than actually tracking your checking account is no different than not keeping track and simply opening your statement every month and agreeing with it.
Bottles.
GNUCash allows the import of ofx/qfx files - In my case with the web interface of my various accounts I download the (quicken formatted data), open the file in gnucash, and transactions are (mostly) reconciled automatically and correctly. My understanding is that the version of quicken offered to OS X users behaves similar to this thus I have not found the need to upgrade to quicken.
How do I keep track of people who are fingering
How about: When the typical open-source developer has the income and complex finances to require something more sophisticated than a checkbook balancing program.
If you think about the values and culture that drive Free Software and contrast with the values and culture that drive Quicken and QuickBooks, you'll see the immediate disconnect.
If there are commercial financial programs on *nix, then businesses will feel less tied to other OS's. I have a feeling that after proprietary software converts that more developers would make OSS programs that initially mimic the proprietaries, followed by being innovative themselves.
Yes, I know that OSS software is not bound to *nix, but generically, people who run *nix are more likely to run OSS while people who run OSX/Windows are more likely to run proprietary software.
I suppose I should take a look at it some day...but, no I've not reconciled my bank account in years in any manner...
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
MYOB are a pack of cunts.
They take freely available tax information from the ATO, pack into into a new version and sell it for $400. And no, you can't change the taxation in your previous version. They got rid of that feature. MYOB effectively has a one year life.