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When Wikipedia Fails

PetManimal writes "Frank Ahrens of The Washington Post looks at how Wikipedia stumbles when entries for controversial people are altered by partisan observers. Case in point: Enron's Kenneth Lay, who died of natural causes last week, shortly after being sentenced to prison. His Wikipedia entry was altered repeatedly to include unfounded rumors that he had killed himself, or the stress from his trial had caused the heart attack. From the article: '... Here's the dread fear with Wikipedia: It combines the global reach and authoritative bearing of an Internet encyclopedia with the worst elements of radicalized bloggers. You step into a blog, you know what you're getting. But if you search an encyclopedia, it's fair to expect something else. Actual facts, say. At its worst, Wikipedia is an active deception, a powerful piece of agitprop, not information.'"

93 of 513 comments (clear)

  1. How much editorial oversight is enough? by gbulmash · · Score: 5, Interesting

    There are a number of sites that are based on user-submitted data. One that immediately comes to mind is the Internet Movie Database (imdb.com). Now, I'm not intimately familiar with the workings of Wikipedia, but based on TFA, the main difference I see between them and IMDb is that IMDb has a more restrictive additions policy. With IMDb, any registered user can submit information, but every iota of information (aside from some user reviews/comments, which are presented as such) must pass through an editorial review.

    Some will say that IMDb has the luxury of doing this, being owned by Amazon. But IMDb has been online since before there really was World Wide Web. It was started in the Usenet newsgroups back in 1990 and didn't get a web interface until a Welsh grad student built one in 1993. They have always exercised editorial oversight and did so even back when they were a loose group of volunteers with no funding to speak of.

    It used to be that IMDb's structure made it less than nimble in responding to breaking news because of an involved and complicated build process. But over the years, more modularization and granularity have been built into their systems. But even if they're right on the forefront of a news event, their editors and data managers are scrutinizing what becomes part of their "official" record.

    Now, people try to trick IMDb, flood them with wrong facts and bad info. Sometimes a bit gets by their editors. But the bits still have to go by an editor before they become publicly visible. AFAICT, this isn't the case with WikiPedia and that is its fatal flaw. And it's not just the wackos and those with an agenda that need to be guarded against. More damage can be done by a cadre of well-meaning fools than a handful of agitators. And it seems that even if they need to defend their systems against the axe grinders, they need to put double the effort into defending against fools.

    Maybe I'm comparing apples to oranges since IMDb is a lot more narrow in scope than WikiPedia. But they're both large repositories of user-submitted information, they both started as volunteer projects, and they're both widely regarded as great resources. The difference is that IMDb has always exercised more editorial oversight before letting user submissions go live, and IMO, that makes it more trustworthy. Perhaps Wikipedia should take a page from IMDb's book.

    - Greg

    1. Re:How much editorial oversight is enough? by Durrok · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I have a better idea, one that is easy for everyone to implement. Wikipedia is the encyclopedia that anyone can edit. Treat it as such.

      --
      I keep telling myself I'm not the desperate type.
    2. Re:How much editorial oversight is enough? by sbaker · · Score: 5, Insightful

      So look up pairs of movies in IMDB and Wikipedia and see which has the best coverage. I think Wikipedia wins every time...especially for new releases.

      Movies are easy to get right - it's politics and religion and controversial stuff that's hard to do well. You can't get the sheer volume of stuff that Wikipedia has by reviewing everything. Wikipedia is growing at a rate significantly faster than a human can read - no one person could read it all - much less review it.

      Wikipedia grows by 50,000 articles a month. If your hypothetical reviewer reviewed a couple of articles a day - Wikipedia would need over 1,000 reviewers - some of whom would have to be experts in extremely narrow fields. It's all very well to have a few movie buffs keep track of a few dozen movie facts per day - but the only way to handle a problem the size of Wikipedia is to have the general public do the reviewing as well as the writing - which is precisely what happens.

      --
      www.sjbaker.org
    3. Re:How much editorial oversight is enough? by sbaker · · Score: 2, Informative
      For example, Wikipedia could remain as quick-moving as it was when any AC could change the "latest" version, but I wish old versions were "tagged" as "accurate" by "editors".

      Actually, that DOES happen. Featured articles are tagged at the release they were reviewed at.

      --
      www.sjbaker.org
    4. Re:How much editorial oversight is enough? by Tatsh · · Score: 4, Insightful

      What they should do is have a version of Wikipedia that has already been verified by a community of editors. So, a process similar to the following would take place:

      1) General population would add/modify/remove entries on Wikipedia with public-editing capabilities.
      2) A second Wikipedia would be set-up where only a group of editors would have write-access to the content. The editors would periodically compare the two versions of Wikipedia and commit the "good" information from the publicly-edited version to the restricted version.


      That would not make any sense from a Wiki standpoint. The second is not a Wikipedia or Wiki at all, it's a private organization publishing information. Who gets access? "Scholars," "Historians," people with PhD's only? People with an IQ of 180 or more?

    5. Re:How much editorial oversight is enough? by sbaker · · Score: 5, Informative

      Does a group of editors systematically tag all the articles at some point.

      There is just too much stuff to do that methodically. 50,000 articles are added every month - just think about how many people would have be there to check them all!

      Instead there are a few parallel 'top-down' efforts to make an extra-high-quality core by picking the key articles in every major subject area and flagging the stable versions. One effort is thinking in terms of a printed paper version of Wikipedia - another is looking into doing a CD-ROM version. The articles that make it into these special collections are carefully vetted and tagged - so you know that there is a stable 'known good' version backing up the latest version. However, these barely scratch the surface of the problem.

      Additionally, there is a bottom-up process by which article authors can attempt to get their articles recognised for high quality. You first nominate your article for 'peer review' - reviewers monitor this list and come along to check your article. If you pass you can go on to request 'Good Article' status - another round of reviews. Next you can try for the coveted "Featured article" status (there are just over 1000 of these so far) - you get pummeled by English majors and pedants of every stripe - if you pass that then you can try to get your article into 'Article of the Day' - with yet another round of reviews.

      Yet another layer is the 'Portal' system. Check out 'Portal:Automobile' for example - it covers the subset of Wikipedia articles about cars. Many portals have their own quality assurance methods and standards enforcement groups.

      These quality processes work well - but there just aren't enough reviewers to effectively check the 1.2 million English language articles - let alone all of the ones written in French, Portugese...etc. Remember - English language Wikipedia is growing at a rate faster than any human can read. Nobody will ever be able to read all of it - even if they make it's their life's work.

      --
      www.sjbaker.org
    6. Re:How much editorial oversight is enough? by gbulmash · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's all very well to have a few movie buffs keep track of a few dozen movie facts per day...

      Try a few thousand movie facts a day.

      But there are ways to make this simpler. Enable trust scoring on contributors, add a value component to the trust score. Every contribution gets checked and scored on its validity/verifiability, then it also gets scored on how much value it added (i.e. a grammatical correction gets a 1, while a large passage of new information gets a 10). When editors are reviewing a contribution, they get a clue from the contributor's scores as to how deeply they need to check it. If the guy has a 98% validity record with an average value add of 7 over 150 contributions, the editor may be able to let some of the smaller things through with a quick read-over just to be sure it makes sense. An editor could clear 30 such items an hour rather than 2 a day.

      Additionally, an invite-only peer-review area could be created. Someone who has contributed a minimum of 20 items on science with a 100% validity rate and average value add of 4 or higher might be invited to review items in the science category. When 2-3 volunteer peers give a new article or significant edit a thumbs up, it's incorporated.

      Now, the methods I describe may not be how IMDb does it. I don't know their data management practices for sure. But assigning trust scores to longtime contributors... that's not hard. Look at Slashdot's moderation system. Adding a Contributor Karma system to the back-end management interface for the Wikipedia editors shouldn't be too tough.

      - Greg

    7. Re:How much editorial oversight is enough? by sbaker · · Score: 3, Informative

      What they should do is have a version of Wikipedia that has already been verified by a community of editors.

      Which part of 1.2 MILLION articles didn't you understand?

      You have to understand the sheer size of the undertaking you propose...it's quite utterly out of the question:

      340 million words.

      50,000 articles added every month.

      If you printed it out in the same format as the Encyclopedia Britannica it would fill 240 VOLUMES!

      3.7 million changes every month.

      How the heck do you review something that big?

      The answer is that only a community the size of the Wikipedia contributors can possibly review something this big - so community review is the ONLY answer.

      Since the number of changes per month (3.7 million) vastly exceeds the article creation rate per month (50,000) - you can tell that this process is in fact working.

      --
      www.sjbaker.org
    8. Re:How much editorial oversight is enough? by apflwr3 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      IMDB excels at what it is, which is a database of movie credits. If you want to see everything an actor did in his career, if you like a director and want to get a list of his other works, that's where you go. I'm sure there are abuses (or just mistakes) but it's pretty hard to dick around with the credits list of Star Wars.

      The abuses you mentioned are pretty much sandboxed-- movies in production (which are tumultous by nature, and no media source will have anything but speculation until they are released), the comments and "fun facts" section which should be taken with a grain of salt anyway. Perhaps the biggest potential for abuse is someone padding their credits by getting movies listed that shouldn't be there-- like a student film-- but that behavior is so under the radar it doesn't really affect other users.

      Misinformation and abuse in Wikipedia is much more widespread... But that said, I don't see why there's so much hand-wringing over it. Yeah, the articles are biased and subject to manipulation. So what? It's not an academic resource, it's a repository of common knowledge. Treating it as anything but a "know-it-all friend" is a mistake (and just plain laziness.) If you're serious about a subject (or even trying to settle an argument) Wikipedia should do nothing more than give you ammo to do real research.

    9. Re:How much editorial oversight is enough? by MyLongNickName · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Okay fine. But then don't complain when it isn't held as authoritative as Encyclopedia Britannica. I, for one, do not think a mass 'editorial review' is necessary. I'd simply put a cap: only registered users can change an existing article. As soon as registration is required, you'd see a dramatic drop in vandalism. Most of it is spur of the moment. It would not remove all vandalism, but I bet it would drop a lot.

      --
      See my journal for slashdot ID's by year. Mine created in 2005. http://slashdot.org/journal/289875/slashdot-ids-by-year
    10. Re:How much editorial oversight is enough? by Xymor · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Agreed.
      Wikipedia is just as much susceptible to errors as humans are.
      Once people encounter articles bering wrong information, instead of correcting them, they report it to papers and try to demote wikipedia merits. That doesn't proof Wikipedia failures, but humanity ones.
      They have good mechanisms to prevent vandalism like: Posting a link in the discution tab to confirm your statements, or locking the edition by non wikipedians, if only people use them.

    11. Re:How much editorial oversight is enough? by chandip · · Score: 5, Interesting

      But then don't complain when it isn't held as authoritative as Encyclopedia Britannica

      Authoritativeness of Britannica is more a perception than reality. Read the entries from the 80's on communism or from 70's on homosexuality. It was not as unbiased or authoritative as one might have expected. For all its failings, and there are many, with Wikipedia you get to know the other point of view and controversial topics are clearly highlighted (eg. LTTE, Taliban etc).

      --
      the sig
    12. Re:How much editorial oversight is enough? by Elemenope · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Most professors I know would bitchslap a student six ways from sunday from using any secondary source whenever it was possible to reference a primary. Heaven help you if you referenced Britannica, never mind Wikipedia. The more enlightened and less cranky of them advised us that we should use Britannica and Wikipedia as a good way to get a quick overview of a completely unfamiliar or tangential topic, which in turn suggests what areas of primary research to pursue (as primary research is time intensive). I consider that to be good advice.

      --
      All the techniques ever used to make men moral have been themselves thoroughly immoral... (Nietzsche)
    13. Re:How much editorial oversight is enough? by Durrok · · Score: 3, Informative

      They are already doing something to stop the "spur of the moment" edits. Having an already established user account is required to edit the articles deemed "semi-controversial" articles. So yes, you can still register an account and make some crazy changes to the article four days later but I'd imagine most lose interest.

      For those articles where established users are "disagreeing heavily" on what the article should say it is flagged as controversial and only editors can change it.

      Not a perfect system but better then nothing.

      --
      I keep telling myself I'm not the desperate type.
    14. Re:How much editorial oversight is enough? by The_Wilschon · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Ah yes... slashdot's moderation and karma system. It is excellent at producing . . . groupthink? Let's face it. There is a prevailing set of opinions on slashdot, and if you follow those opinions, then you get karma and mod points, thus reinforcing the groupthink, because only those who follow it can make their way into the (large) group of people who enforce it.

      Now, you could say that with a larger group of people, this is exactly what you want in an encyclopedia: the collective thought of humanity. However, slashdot's groupthink is by no means equal to the collective thought of slashdot. I would wager (now, I freely admit that I don't have good empirical evidence for this, so take it with several large grains of salt) that the karma+moderation system has a significant narrowing effect on the thought expressed by high scoring comments here. That's ok here, but not in an encyclopedia. The downside of widening the thought for wikipedia is that there is a lot of crap to trudge through.

      --
      SIGSEGV caught, terminating

      wait... not that kind of sig.
    15. Re:How much editorial oversight is enough? by Maru+Dubshinki · · Score: 2, Informative

      It's kinda ironic, but almost everything you ask for is available.

      "Highlighting fresh edits."

      All the vandal fighting tools, like Lupin's Recent Changes, Vandalfighter (and its many derivatives and copycats) take this for granted. The neatest tool is probably Tawkerbot2, which is a custom bot that goes through recent changes and automatically reverts vandalism- it is remarkably accurate; I've only ever seen it make a mistake in cases where there were two vandalism edits which got right on top of each other before Tawkerbot2 could revert the first one.

      "Detecting back and forth deletions and flagging them."

      Ditto.

      "Establishing a pool of problematic articles that volunteers could stay on top of."

      We call such articles semi-protected; most Slashdotters see semi-protection as the problem, not the solution, though, judging from the comments in the articles dealing with semi-protection. There's also some less effective options, like the high-traffic templates.

      "A day waiting period for new accounts to edit particularly problematic articles."

      See above about semi-protection. More like 4 days though.

      --
      Enquiring minds want to know!
    16. Re:How much editorial oversight is enough? by freeweed · · Score: 4, Informative

      Again and again, we see these comments: "Groupthink". "Bias". "Narrowing of thought".

      Continually modded up. Think carefully about what that means for a second.

      For those of you that haven't been around long enough, the previous gripe was simply "anti-Microsoft bias". Those comments also very often get modded up. Every OS-related story of the past several years has dozens of posts modded highly that basically amount to "Red Hat 7 was hard to install, so Linux will never get anywhere on the desktop".

      Personally, I find Slashdot's moderation system works far better than most people realize. If you step back I think you'll find the "prevailing set of opinions" is just that - the more commonly held belief. But implying that somehow lesser-held beliefs and opinions don't get their fair shake? Maybe the Slashdot hordes aren't the ones with the biases, because you must be very good at ignoring a LOT of highly-moderated posts each day.

      --
      Endless arguments over trivial contradictions in books written by ignorant savages to explain thunder in the dark.
    17. Re:How much editorial oversight is enough? by glesga_kiss · · Score: 2, Insightful
      And what's wrong with those entries? They don't conform to the shifts in public opinion among certain demographic groups?

      Are you kidding? It's supposed to be an "encyclopedia", as in "have ethics". If I want biased reporting I'll watch Fox. Without starting another pointless debate, there is a lot of benefits from things like socialism and it would be nice to see a fair analysis of both the good and the bad. If a top-flight reference source allows political bias to influence it's entries, then it simply cannot be trusted. It's no different from a Chinese reference containing a "nice-guy" entry for Mao, ditto Stalin.

      If the tone of an article shifts to meet the readers bias, then it's bullshit. Encyclopedia's aren't a popularity contest.

    18. Re:How much editorial oversight is enough? by Tatarize · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It doesn't really matter. This is a selected event. Bias seeps out when there is are political or religious articles. But, if you're looking up something on unicorns or galaxies or some kind of rat, the articles are pretty damned good. If you're looking up some arcane thing in Scifi, the articles are too damned good.

      --

      It is no longer uncommon to be uncommon.
    19. Re:How much editorial oversight is enough? by mpe · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Are you kidding? It's supposed to be an "encyclopedia", as in "have ethics". If I want biased reporting I'll watch Fox. Without starting another pointless debate, there is a lot of benefits from things like socialism and it would be nice to see a fair analysis of both the good and the bad.

      It is very hard for people to do this, very few people are highly knowlegable about topics they are indifferent to. In some cases (especially if all people involved are on a even footing and inclined to be civil) a group authorship. With the likes of Zionism and Feminism this would would be virtually impossible.

      If the tone of an article shifts to meet the readers bias, then it's bullshit. Encyclopedia's aren't a popularity contest.

      It isn't just "readers' bias" there is also "fashion" surrounding the topics themselves, influence of political lobbying groups, etc.

    20. Re:How much editorial oversight is enough? by mpe · · Score: 2, Insightful

      They are already doing something to stop the "spur of the moment" edits. Having an already established user account is required to edit the articles deemed "semi-controversial" articles. So yes, you can still register an account and make some crazy changes to the article four days later but I'd imagine most lose interest.

      This would stop "casual vandals". But it's ineffective against organised politics and lobby groups. If anything a "cooling off period" can be counter productive, since it does little to put off (even quite loosely) organised groups and fanatics. Whilst being likely to deter an average person.
      It can be a fundermental problem that the people you most want to deter are those least easily detered. Sometimes known as the "jerk pass" filter effect.

      For those articles where established users are "disagreeing heavily" on what the article should say it is flagged as controversial and only editors can change it.

      There are a couple of problems here. The first is what happens if the editors are biased towards one "side"? The other is disagreement may be part of the topic in question and to deny this makes the whole thing meaningless.

    21. Re:How much editorial oversight is enough? by bky1701 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The point is, it's just as wrong as Wikipedia, if not more, for the reasons you just stated. It's just more clear on Wikipedia, arguably a good thing.

    22. Re:How much editorial oversight is enough? by glesga_kiss · · Score: 4, Interesting
      It isn't just "readers' bias" there is also "fashion" surrounding the topics themselves, influence of political lobbying groups, etc.

      Well, can we agree that the encyclopedia's are completely failing at their job then? There's plenty of other sources you can use when you are looking for opinion on topics.

      This is one of the things that the wiki has in it's favour. I quite like the "this topic is under debate" warnings and the associated discussion as it tells you that careful research will be required to get a fair view. It would be nice if the other encyclopedias allowed futher viewing into how they arrived at the current consensus.

      I hate history revisionsim with a passion. I live in Scotland and much of hour history has been "revised" to keep us in check. To see it happening in renowned encyclopedias is pretty distrubing.

    23. Re:How much editorial oversight is enough? by syntaxglitch · · Score: 4, Funny

      Continually modded up. Think carefully about what that means for a second.

      So... you're saying that the community has an ideological bias towards complaining about Slashdot's moderation system?

      Wait, no, because your comment got modded up, too. Argh! Now I'm confused, which way is the bias?!

    24. Re:How much editorial oversight is enough? by Mr.+Underbridge · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Personally, I find Slashdot's moderation system works far better than most people realize. If you step back I think you'll find the "prevailing set of opinions" is just that - the more commonly held belief. But implying that somehow lesser-held beliefs and opinions don't get their fair shake? Maybe the Slashdot hordes aren't the ones with the biases, because you must be very good at ignoring a LOT of highly-moderated posts each day.

      I think it's more that flamebait gets modded as insightful if it matches the groupthink, not that well-reasoned posts are modded down if it doesn't. For example, if I make a crack about Bush being a retard or Ballmer being a maniac, there's a good chance that gets to +5. If I do it for most other neutral figures, that gets modded to oblivion. So I think there is still a bias to some extent.

      That said, the quality on slashdot has gotten immeasurably better since the rise of another popular tech website that will remain nameless *cough*DIGG*cough*. I think the teenage fanboys have been sucked off to the flavor of the month. Thank God.

    25. Re:How much editorial oversight is enough? by Dun+Malg · · Score: 2, Funny
      Noone cares about a rare species of marmont so it's very likely that information about the marmont will be accurate
      I hear the last significant Marmont went extinct in 1852. Preservation proved dificult after the fall of the French Monarchy.

      Marmots, on the other hand, are plentiful.

      As far as accuracy, even the stuff "no one cares about" has occasional minor annoying errors. They just don't get corrected. The trouble is that the general population is, on average, only of average intelligence and education. The errors I find are, in fact, more likely to be errors not so much in factual minutiae, but in pure logic, and are correctable by anyone with the ability to reason. For example, I don't have to be an air conditioning system expert to know that, in a particular Volkswagen AC system where the condenser is in the front by the radiator and the compressor is in the back on the engine, relocation of the evaporator (which sits in the refrigerant circuit between the condenser and compressor) does not make the refrigerant circuit longer or shorter.
      --
      If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
    26. Re:How much editorial oversight is enough? by RyanJBlack · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Ken Lay died at 10. By "Wednesday afternoon", according to TFA, the Wikipedia page had settled down and presented a reasonably accurate view. So what exactly is the point of TFA? It sounds to me like Wikipedia works just fine. Within hours, an informative, freely-accessible article was available to the whole world.

      What everybody in the media seems to be missing about this story is this: where is the beloved Britannica's article on Kenneth Lay? You know, the authoritative source used to compare these things. The one used by Wiki's detractors to say, "Oh, look how inaccurate their initial drafts of the Ken Lay article are! That would never happen in traditional encyclopedias". I searched Britannica's site, can't seem to find it. Tried Kenneth Lay, Ken Lay, Lay, Kenneth, nothing. Maybe it's behind their paywall? Oh, wait, there is another point for Wikipedia: no paywall.

      So when the author of the TFA writes "[u]nlike, say, the Encyclopedia Britannica, Wikipedia has no formal peer review for its articles", I would counter with this: "Unlike, say, the Encyclopedia Britannica, Wikipedia actually contains articles on the topic we're discussing. Oh, and it's free too."

  2. Too recent & controversial for an encyclopedia by sbaker · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I would agree that Wikipedia is poor at reporting stories that are both recent AND controversial - but to be fair, I don't think those are the kinds of things you should be looking up in an encyclopedia anyway. Look back at this same article in six months and I guarantee it'll be correct and unbiassed. It just takes time for the community to settle on the right wording.

    Things that are NOT recent but ARE controversial ('Religion' or 'Area 51'for example) are generally well written, correct and take a carefully neutral stance. Things that are recent but NOT controversial (say "2006 World Cup Soccer") are well reported immediately and bang up to date with all the right facts.

    It's the intersection of recent and controversial that messes up the system because too many people are editing at once and a lot of them are nut jobs. Once the topic gets old or becomes uncontroversial, the lunatic fringe loses interest and good writing can take place.

    On the other hand, if you want to know the engine capacity of a 1963 Austin Min
    i or the number of casualties in the RAF Faulds explosion or the exact nature o
    f the student prank involving the Bridge of Sighs in Cambridge or the size of a
      litter of European Red Squirrels - things that I consult an encyclopedia for rather than a newspaper - then there is no other place (on the web or otherwise) to touch what Wikipedia has done.

    --
    www.sjbaker.org
  3. Square peg, round hole. by Short+Circuit · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You don't go to Wikipedia to learn things about actively controversial subjects. You go to Wikipedia to learn things that nobody cares to dispute. Like science, math and biology. Or even history.

    If there's significant controversey, it'll usually get its own section on a page.

    1. Re:Square peg, round hole. by mkosmo · · Score: 2, Informative

      As I recall, Wikipedia is consistantly more accurate on concrete subjects (ie. minimally disputed science and academics) than published encyclopedias, so yes, very true.

    2. Re:Square peg, round hole. by ceejayoz · · Score: 2, Funny

      "I am an idiot."

      Brought to you by the Slashdot Post Translation Service.

    3. Re:Square peg, round hole. by Tatsh · · Score: 2, Insightful

      As I recall, Wikipedia is consistantly more accurate on concrete subjects (ie. minimally disputed science and academics) than published encyclopedias, so yes, very true.

      I'm glad to hear that I'm not the only one who thinks this. I read about plenty of historical events and about languages and etymologies all the time on Wikipedia, and sometimes read news events, but that's less interesting than "concrete subjects."

      My problem with the article is it is seemingly FUD. The Washington Post is a published and well-respected news source, any encyclopedia company seriously losing money to Wikipedia (Britannica, World Book, Grolier, Microsoft) could've told them to attempt at discrediting it with an article. Even at school, I get told all the time by teachers that Wikipedia is not a valid source, so I attempt at not using it when sources really matter as part of my grade, however, despite what teachers say, there are still tons of kids using Wikipedia as a source in all kinds of schoolwork, and any company that doesn't publish on paper. Frankly, I feel it is a major Big Brother sorta thing to have "credible" sources and other places to be considered automatically not credible, like Wikipedia. Teachers who have been using books from publishing companies for decades would love this article, along with the other 10000 articles about how Wikipedia is somehow not credible.

    4. Re:Square peg, round hole. by exp(pi*sqrt(163)) · · Score: 4, Insightful
      You don't go to Wikipedia to learn things about actively controversial subjects.
      I vehemently disagree. If it's controversial then you'll learn lots from Wikipedia because you'll see the actual controversy live as it happens rather than the sanitised version you'll read 50 years later in Britannica.
      --
      Doesn't it make you feel good to know that our freedoms are protected by politicans, lawyers and journalists.
  4. I'm not buying it. by mindstrm · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You step into Wikipedia, you understand what's up.
    You know it's not a peer-reviewed encyclopedia. It's a WIKIpedia.
    You know anyone, including you, can edit it.

    Whenever you read up on a controversial topic, you expect controversial results... would a traditional encyclopedia even HAVE information about some enron executive? I doubt it.

    Let's not make controversy where there is none.. wikipedia is a stunning example of what the internet is good at.

  5. WP is self-correcting by Dr.+Zowie · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The advantage of WP isn't that it's right all the time, it's that it is (through the tireless effort of zillions of people on five-minute breaks) self-correcting. When the AP screwed up their Ken Lay story, it took overnight before a retraction was posted. WP's story is screwed up for 5-20 minutes at a time.

    The mainstream media are almost equally susceptible to being hacked -- even if you don't follow wingnuts like Rush Limbaugh or the insane propaganda and political fart-lighting on Fox News, it's not hard to spot gross errors or oversights in news reporting. "Unbiased" news doesn't exist, investigative reporting isn't anymore, and the media circus is just that -- a circus. Wikipedia may be raw, uncensored, or wrong, but at least it tends to correct itself rapidly.

    For what it's worth, the science articles are rapidly becoming the most comprehensive archive of science knowledge ever aimed at the general public. (Of course the refereed literature is larger, but it's not a reference work for the layperson).

    1. Re:WP is self-correcting by jdunlevy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      With a hard-copy offline encyclopedia, the reader never has the opportunity to see full revision histories for a given article, and certainly won't hear the editorial discussions going on in connection with a given article. With wikipedia, the full revision history of every article is right there, and more controversial articles invariably also have an associated online discussion. The revision history certainly gives some clues as to how reliable or above question an article is likely to be (too few revisions, maybe it hasn't been adequately reviewed; too many back-and-forth revisions, and you can see there's an ongoing argument). With a printed book encyclopedia, these clues are missing and -- in the absence of outside knowledge -- all articles simply have to be taken equally.

    2. Re:WP is self-correcting by DerekLyons · · Score: 2, Informative
      The advantage of WP isn't that it's right all the time, it's that it is (through the tireless effort of zillions of people on five-minute breaks) self-correcting.

      In theory.
       
       
      When the AP screwed up their Ken Lay story, it took overnight before a retraction was posted. WP's story is screwed up for 5-20 minutes at a time.
      Sure there is a handful on controversial and/or current articles that get fixed that fast. But for each of those articles, there are dozens more which remain broken for months or weeks. (The canonical example - one that Wikipedia supporters never seem to mention, is of course the Siegenthaler Affair.) I have in my watchlist over two dozen pages that I know to be incorrect - that have lain untouched for as much as a year.
    3. Re:WP is self-correcting by someone300 · · Score: 3, Insightful
      I have in my watchlist over two dozen pages that I know to be incorrect - that have lain untouched for as much as a year.
      Correct them then; that's the point.
    4. Re:WP is self-correcting by FurryFeet · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Wow, talk about petty. Do you also let the garbage on the street to time how long it takes "someone else" to pick it up?

      I mean, I'd understand it if you said "I'm fed up with Wikipedia, I'm not gonna edit or care anymore". But to have your own private list of "Wikipedia mistakes" hoarded, checking for them and actively preventing them from being fixed... well, no other word describes it better than "petty".

    5. Re:WP is self-correcting by PenguiN42 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Only in some utopian dreamworld. Here in the real world - articles frequently require fixing, either because they are factually incorrect or badly written.

      You completely misunderstood my attempt at making a subtle point. Of course articles need fixing and some articles may require constant attention to keep them in a decent state; I'm not denying that at all. My point was, when you fix articles or "babysit" them, you're not doing some unfortunate labor that's sadly necessary to keep wikipedia on its feet -- you're participating in the core activity of wikipedia itself. Wikipedia is based on the idea that enough people will work to fix errors (and more people will do so than those inserting errors) -- so complaining that you always have to fix errors is asinine. It's like complaining about the game Jenga since you don't like the idea of taking blocks out of a tower without toppling it. It's completely missing the point.

      That's a very nice handwaving collection of buzzwords

      Uhm... one that contained a simple statement and absolutely no buzzwords or handwaving? Read it again: Improving the articles on wikipedia is the primary process of wikipedia itself. Whether you think it works or not is a different issue, but there's no handwaving there. That's what wikipedia is supposed to be about.

      It's sad that words like "buzzword" and "handwaving" are themselves becoming buzzwords and handwaving, not requiring any meaning or thought behind them.

      Personally, I judge the Wikipedia by observing the process and comparing the claims of it's boosters to objective standards.

      Forgive me for being frank, but that's an idiotic way to judge something. Pick some extreme claims by something's most zealous and vocal supporters, and then bash the thing when it doesn't live up to them?

      How about judging something for what it is rather than what some people might claim it to be.

      the claim that the Wikipedia is self correcting (it isn't)

      If wikipedia is not self correcting, then all articles would be stubs or ridiculous crap, and featured articles could not possibly exist. But the fact that they do -- over 1000 of them -- objectively demonstrates that the wiki is self-correcting.

      errors rarely stand for more than a few hours or days (they routinely do)

      Do you have any actual statistics for how often errors stand for a long time and how often they're corrected quickly? Or are you just blowing hot air?

      Without even trying very hard - I can hit 'random page' and find that between 20 and 30 percent of the articles are wrong, or badly written, or incomplete, or in violation of at least one the Wikipedia's policies.

      Wow. Wikipedia has over a million articles, and you're claiming that 70-80 percent of them actually are high quality by your standards! That's over 700,000 good articles by your admission -- way more than any traditional encyclopedia -- yet you still think you have cause to complain?

      (I should note that even wiki "zealots" wouldn't make the claim that 70% of the articles on the wiki are high quality, so you really should double-check your percentages there).

      That percentage has remained stable for over a year now - the process of 'continually improving', so touted by Wikipedia boosters, is visibly failing to take hold.

      If that percentage has remained stable then your evidence actually proves the exact opposite of what you're saying. Wikipedia gets thousands (tens of thousands?) of new articles per month. If articles never improved (as you keep re-asserting), then by simple mathematical fact, the percentage of poor articles should be constantly increasing. If that percentage, in

      --
      The following sentence is true. The preceding sentence was false.
  6. There's an expression that idiots don't understand by TWX · · Score: 4, Insightful

    and that is, "consider the source." If someone is dumb enough to believe uncorroborated reports without any kind of consideration for the fact that the reporter could be wrong, lying, misinformed, or promoting an agenda then they get what they get.

    The Internet is a great resource. Wikipedia has been very good for helping me find new things to be interested in, but it's not the end solution. If anything it's the beginning and the beginning only. I use Wikipedia to find out that I want to learn more about a subject, and from there, once I have had a chance to consult or read from true experts then I can make my judgement.

    --
    Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
  7. Unable to understand that apples are not oranges by finkployd · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is simply a case of people not being able to understand that wikipedia is not the exact same thing as Britannic. You have to look at the talk page, you have to hit a few revisions if you want to be comfortable about the accuracy of data. At times I have learned more reading the debate back and forth of two opposing viewpoints than the entry itself.

    Unfortunately, people think in metaphors. Well, that is not so bad in itself, but people often seem unable to get beyond the metaphor and understand that some things are not exactly like anything they are familiar with. Case in point, how many people equate hacking into a website with breaking into a house? Or infringing on a copyright with stealing a car? This is just another case of people unable or unwilling to appreciate that wikipedia is unique and cannot be treated like a traditional encyclopedia.

    Finkployd

  8. Encyclopedia by sleepykit · · Score: 2, Insightful

    As far as I know, one does not check an encyclopedia for things that have happened in the last couple of weeks. That's why we have newspapers (online and otherwise).

    --
    "When did I realize I was God? Well, I was praying and I suddenly realized I was talking to myself." ~ Jack Gurney
  9. Re:Too recent & controversial for an encyclope by B'Trey · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Well said. Additionally, the article doesn't support the headline. There were only a couple of bogus entries and those were corrected within one or two minutes. The article also takes issue with statements like: "Speculation as to the cause of the heart attack lead many people to believe it was due to the amount of stress put on him by the Enron trial." Where's the problem with that statement? It's clearly labeled as speculation, and many people, rightly or wrongly, still believe the stress of the trial led to his heart attack. Perhaps such speculations are best left out of Wikipedia articles, but one can't reasonably argue that it's incorrect or misleading when it's clearly listed as speculation. In short, this is a desparate attempt to nit-pick Wikipedia and it even fails at that.

    --

    "The legitimate powers of government extend only to such acts as are injurious to others." Thomas Jefferson.

  10. Wikipedia is for reference, it's not a news site. by Spluge · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You don't expect the encyclopaedia on your shelf to be up to date and accurate on something that happened half an hour ago. Wikipedia was never intended as a news service, anyone who treats it like one is going to be sorely disappointed.

    The role of Wikipedia is for reference, give it time and the information there settles down to the truth or at least something close to it.

    Don't ask it to be something that it isn't any you won't be disappointed.

  11. Re:Too recent & controversial for an encyclope by Elemenope · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I would agree that Wikipedia is poor at reporting stories that are both recent AND controversial - but to be fair, I don't think those are the kinds of things you should be looking up in an encyclopedia anyway.

    The comment above is just the sort of comment that deserves a few 'insightful' mod points. Sometimes, pointing out the blindingly obvious is difficult when people so desperately want things to be something other than what they are. Wikipedia is, at best, something *like* an encyclopedia, and as such should serve similar purposes. Some people think that somehow there is a way to take the human element and passion out of a user-contributed site, or any site, or any work or endeavor of humankind for that matter. There isn't. Let us simply understand that you can't have the factual accuracy and neutrality of an encyclopedia for something that occurred yesterday; technology alters the quantity and speed of information, not its quality. If you want neutrality, you must wait for cooler (and further removed) heads to prevail.

    --
    All the techniques ever used to make men moral have been themselves thoroughly immoral... (Nietzsche)
  12. Re:I am no nut but... by chundo · · Score: 4, Funny

    I am not a conspiricy theorist...

    Now you are. Congratulations on the shiny new hat.

  13. Re:Truth is subjectivity? by ta+bu+shi+da+yu · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Do you state that all truth is subjective as an objective truth?

    That said, when you look at Wikipedia, you should be checking the references. If there are no footnotes or a references section on a Wikipedia article, read the article with interest but don't trust it for anything.

    --
    XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
  14. To be fair by sterno · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Also, Wikipedia marks articles that involve current events and controversey as such to make it clear that it's not necessarily an objective and concise source of information. So long as they are forthright about that, I don't see a problem.

    --
    This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
  15. Re:Too recent & controversial for an encyclope by Fordiman · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You're exactly right, you know. Anything recent and controversial on wikipedia is very likely inaccurate - and most users find this out pretty quickly, whether through common sense (ie: you have regular people editing articles) or through experience (such as this Ken Lay thing).

    As a result, you quickly get the idea that WIKIPEDIA IS NOT FOR NEWS. Meanwhile, the author of TFA seems to be under the impression that its information should always be bang-on accurate immediately. This ain't gonna happen. Just like the collective consciousness, any event that's got the masses riled up is going to be poorly portrayed in its opening hours. Fortunately, the strength of Wikipedia is that, soon enough, its accuracy is recovered.

    A good example is the Ken Lay thing. Take a look at it today; it's pretty accurate at the moment. This may change; a lot people are still pissed about the guy, even years later.

    --
    110100 1101000 1101000 1100110 0 1101111 1101000 1100011 1
  16. This article explained by linvir · · Score: 4, Insightful

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Troll#Attent ion-seeking_trolls

    Intentionally posting an outrageous argument, deliberately constructed around a fundamental but obfuscated flaw or error.

    Troll article -> Slashdot links to it -> Lots of pageviews -> More ad clicks -> Profit

  17. Winston Churchill by Skadet · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Look back at this same article in six months and I guarantee it'll be correct and unbiassed.
    "History is written by the victors." - Winston Churchill
  18. Re:I've always been ... by ceejayoz · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If you're not similarly skeptical about information in the rest of the media, you're naive.

    Hearing the tech reporting on the news is pretty scary. I imagine it's similarly painful for experts in other fields to hear their field discussed by reporters.

  19. Re:Too recent & controversial for an encyclope by monoqlith · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The sentence violates several of the Wiki community's guidelines for article authorship. Using the word "speculation" is not enough. There has to be a credible source cited to be behind the speculation so that the "fact" of the speculation can be established as either belonging to a majority or significant minority. Otherwise the sentence is reporting nothing more than an individual opinion(whether it is the author's or not, or whether it belongs to many people) and can slant the overall impartiality of the article - simply mentioning such speculation can skew a future reader's opinion of the subject of the article. In any case, it's way too soon to tell what the concensus is regarding Lay's death, so remarking on such speculation as fact is ridiculous.

  20. The best summary I've read by bunions · · Score: 5, Insightful
    was, surprisingly, at Penny Arcade:


    Reponses to criticism of Wikipedia go something like this: the first is usually a paean to that pure democracy which is the project's noble fundament. If I don't like it, why don't I go edit it myself? To which I reply: because I don't have time to babysit the Internet. Hardly anyone does. If they do, it isn't exactly a compliment.

    Any persistent idiot can obliterate your contributions. The fact of the matter is that all sources of information are not of equal value, and I don't know how or when it became impolitic to suggest it. In opposition to the spirit of Wikipedia, I believe there is such a thing as expertise.

    The second response is: the collaborative nature of the apparatus means that the right data tends to emerge, ultimately, even if there is turmoil temporarily as dichotomous viewpoints violently intersect. To which I reply: that does not inspire confidence. In fact, it makes the whole effort even more ridiculous. What you've proposed is a kind of quantum encyclopedia, where genuine data both exists and doesn't exist depending on the precise moment I rely upon your discordant fucking mob for my information.


    http://www.penny-arcade.com/2005/12/16

    I think it's valid criticism for non-technical articles. As noted by others, wikipedia kicks ass for noncontroversial, primarily technical topics.
    --
    there is no need to sign your posts. this isn't usenet. your username is right there above your post. stop it.
  21. Re:Add a stability value to a page? by sbaker · · Score: 4, Informative
    Maybe an additional bit of information could be a stability index. How much of the page has changed, both recently, and over time.


    Look at the little row of tabs at the top of every Wikipedia page. See the one marked 'history'? Click on that. You are now looking at a complete history of edits to that page. The handle of everyone who edited it, the date and time it was edited and the commit comment they attached to it. Isn't that enough?


    You can click the radio buttons to the left and get a side-by-side comparison of the article as it was at any times in the past or you can see the entire article exactly as it was on any given date. You can click on the author's name and send them a message on their 'Talk' page if you want to ask about why they changed whatever they changed. You can go to the 'Talk' page for the article itself and see comments from the various editors - heck, you can even get a history of the edits to the Talk page!


    Generally, if there are a lot of 'rv: vandalism' entries on the history page (eg on the "Computer" article that gets vandalised a lot) - then perhaps the article itself is pretty stable - but gets a lot of editing history because people are fixing up the actions of complete idiots. If on the other hand there is some kind of 'edit war' between two editors - then this is still a controversial subject - so treat the article with care. If the article had a busy period for some days or weeks - but then all the subsequent edits were spelling fixes, addition of foreign language versions and stuff like that - then this is a stable and trustworthy article.


    The number of References at the bottom of the article is another good gauge of quality.

    --
    www.sjbaker.org
  22. Re:Too recent & controversial for an encyclope by matt21811 · · Score: 2, Informative

    What you say is generally true but I did find a counterexample.

    The wikipedia entry on Kryder's Law, which is just Moore's law for hard disks was an example of a technical article older than 6 months, which should not have been controversial. It turned out to have some serious problems, like there never was any such thing as Kryder's law until Wikipedia invented it.

    Since I originally pointed out the error, the article has been updated. You can read about what was wrong with it at http://www.mattscomputertrends.com/Kryder's.html

  23. The rules are useless by fm6 · · Score: 4, Interesting
    The sentence violates several of the Wiki community's guidelines for article authorship. Using the word "speculation" is not enough. There has to be a credible source cited to be behind the speculation so that the "fact" of the speculation can be established as either belonging to a majority or significant minority.

    And how many Wikipedia authors follow these guidelines? From what I see, most have not even read them. Wikipedia encourages folks to jump in and start editing. Stopping to learn the rules is an optional step usually skipped.

    And even if an author is motivated to read the rules, they're so complicated and disorganized, it's impossible to get a grasp on most of them.

    Even when authors know the rules, they often don't have the background to apply them. When I used to play copy editor on WP, I would try to get authors to rewrite stuff that was clearly speculative — except to the author! One guy had written that a certain comic book character was obviously based on another character in a famous short story. The connection wasn't at all obvious to me, and he had no source for this information — he was just stating his own opinion. But I had a hell of a time convincing him to reword his statement: it was obvious to him what the facts were, and that was that.

    One other note: you talk about "the Wiki [sic] community's guidelines" as if these rules somehow express a consensus of a large group of people. They do not. There is, in fact, little in the way of consensus building at Wikipedia. Most processes, including rule-making, are dominated by a few people. Sometimes those few people are just whoever's managed to bully everybody else into going away.

    1. Re:The rules are useless by letxa2000 · · Score: 4, Interesting
      From what I see, most have not even read them. Wikipedia encourages folks to jump in and start editing


      It's too friggin' easy. I've almost done it by mistake several times. I go to Wiki searching for something, find the article, and search for a specific keyword. For some reason (which isn't clear to me yet), sometimes hitting ALT-E will cause Wiki to let me start editing the article rather than opening up the drop-down Edit window (so I can subsequently hit 'F' for Find). So instead of searching for something on the page, all the sudden Wiki is offering to let me edit it. If I hit the wrong keystroke and caused that to be submitted, wow, talk about uncontrolled editing!

      I think Wiki is great, there's a lot of good information. But there are some very significant biases. Kind of like Slashdot. There are a lot of smart people here, but there are some significant biases. Not all of them are reasonable. For what Wiki is, it's surprisingly good. You just have to be intelligent enough to recognize the bias and "correct" for it when necessary. But that's true whether you read Wiki, read Slashdot, read CNN, or listen to the president. Everyone has a bias--the best solution would be to know what the bias of the author is when you're reading it for those people who aren't perceptive enough to figure it out by reading the article.

      At the very least Wiki gives you a heck of a lot of information on a topic which makes it a lot easier to refine your Googling efforts. Wikipedia entries are often near the top of Google results, so I usually read them first. That gives me enough knowledge on the topic that I then know what I really need to Google for.

    2. Re:The rules are useless by Maru+Dubshinki · · Score: 2, Informative

      As I understand it, Wikipedia pages come with Javascript that modifies keybindings- M-e is for 'edit', M-d is another thing, and so on. Doesn't work for me at all, so I'm going by what others have told me; hope this helps explain that.

      --
      Enquiring minds want to know!
  24. "The encyclopedia that Slashdot built." by mnemonic_ · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I can see the coder-geek authorbase as the primary cause of Wikipedia's problems. Here are the issues I've noticed in the past. Many of these examples may have been rectified, but they still exist in countless other forms:

    They're insidiously opinionated. Instead of saying wasabi is "fried with peas," they say it is "considered quite tasty with fried peas." Gee, "tasty" is completely objective I guess, not a matter of personal, ahem, taste, at all. Someone tries to argue them down, but they know they're "right," after all they learned C++ when they were 10.

    They miss the forest for the trees. The article on AIDS has wonderful information on the disease's origins, treatment and spread throughout the world. Too bad there's no fucking organization to anything in the article, and the section titled, "Global epidemic" is precisely redundant with the one named, "Current status." It's like the typical geek's desk, awash in code printouts and spec sheets. There's good stuff in there, somewhere (he's sure) but he'll be damned if he can make any sense out of it (but hey it's like a puzzle and those are fun). He should just print one more copy instead of checking if it's already there, and organizing his shit.

    They don't know how to write. If the spelling and language mechanics are correct, then it's good writing (which is like saying that any code that compiles is good code). There's no rule in Strunk & White about too many clauses in one sentence! Thus, the writing is perfect. Decent style, flowing sentences, consistent tone and voice are only for the weak-minded; hackers are made of sterner stuff (well, mentally).

    They're obsessed with dumb trivia. Every article must have its "In popular culture" section, just to prove that they, like Ken Jennings, know stupid references to everything.

    They don't know jackshit about page layout. Does every table need a full set of borders? Must LaTeX equations be fucking huge? Why can't editors use a color wheel (or common sense) to choose nicely matching colors? Deitel & Deitel is not the standard on typesetting or formatting; use a textbook that had an editor as a guide on page layout, like "Fundamentals of Aerodynamics" by Anderson. Clean tables without distracting borders, equations modestly marked by centering and italics (no huge font necessary), headings used only when needed. It's black and white because colors would be superfluous. But it's fun on Wikipedia to add superfluous formatting, it's just like adding new features to software. Oooh, shiney! Instead of featuritis, it's sectionitist, bolditis, table-itis.

    So that's what I think ails Wikipedia in a nutshell. Many of these are addressed by Wikipedia policies, but when even Wikipedia's founder (Jimbo Wales) dislikes following them, how will they ever gain decent implementation? Especially when any editor with half a brain who does support them is just another uncool, uptight elitist who should be ignored. It's no wonder that Wikipedia today is still a nightmare of good information. Citing Wikipedia at the college level is still academic suicide. Unless their policies and people change throughout the chain of command, Wikipedia will never evolve to a real authoritative source that is a true encyclopedia. It's fun to read, but only as accurate and objective as the rest of the internet.

  25. Except it's not valid by Silent+sound · · Score: 4, Informative

    What you don't mention is Tycho's motivation in writing this rant against Wikipedia, as revealed by the part of the article you didn't quote: He was pissed off because they deleted some of his articles. Articles about a book series called "Epic Legends of the Hierarchs: The Elemenstor Saga". A book series that doesn't exist.

    In other words, this very set of arguments as to why wikipedia's system "doesn't work" was prompted by an incident of wikipedia's system working. Tycho tried to post false information, and Wikipedia rejected this. And Tycho got pissy and went and complained about Wikipedia on his blog.

    Now given, Tycho's false information was awesome; the ELOTH:TES stuff that Wikipedia rejected is truly hilarious, and now that it's been moved to its own wiki (where it probably should have been in the first place), it's turned into a collaborative project in its own right, as if Borges' "Tlon, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius" conspiracy had had as their goal to parody fantasy novels.

    But it didn't belong on Wikipedia. And the incident in which it was removed from Wikipedia itself neatly refutes the complaints that the incident inspired Tycho to level against Wikipedia.

    The first complaint is that "Any persistent idiot can obliterate your contributions... all sources of information are not of equal value... I believe there is such a thing as expertise." I don't think it's very hard to read between the lines here; we already know Tycho is pissed off because some "persistent idiot" obliterated his contributions. It's not very hard to imagine that the real issue here is that Tycho (who certainly is a person with expertise) thinks he as a source of information is of value, and the Wikipedia hivemind does not. But Tycho himself shows that the things wikipedia values are more valuable than "expertise"-- Wikipedia values facts, neutrality and whenever possible rigor, and ignores authority. If we accepted "expertise" or appeals to authority, then we'd be obligated to accept Tycho as a source of information just cuz he's a real smart person with a real popular blog. And then Wikipedia would have a series of articles about a fantasy novel franchise and ill-fated 1980s children's TV show which never existed.

    Second off, Tycho issues the complaint that Wikipedia's "errors get fixed eventually" principle isn't very useful if you don't know whether the errors have been fixed yet. Simply looking at a wikipedia page, you have no way to know whether you're looking at a cleanly vetted, accurate bunch of information, or if your pageload just happened by random coincidence to fall in that 30-second gap of space between a vandal entering a statement that Ken Lay committed suicide and a watchlister rving it. This is a much more serious and substantial complaint, and one which is a serious problem for the idea of Wikipedia as an information source. The lesson to be learned here is of course that you shouldn't treat wikipedia as a primary source but rather a starting point for further information, and if the information you're taking from wikipedia is important you need to check the references like a hawk. But in the end, it still isn't a real problem-- as Tycho has shown us. After all, as Tycho found when he tried to introduce false information, that little gap of time where the Wikipedia Wave Function hasn't yet collapsed and pageloads return false information is strikingly small. This is generally not a matter of errors taking months to get fixed. It is sometimes measured in minutes or seconds. The probability of hitting at a bad moment is small enough we can effectively ignore it, unless we have some kind of ulterior motives and are just trying to make Wikipedia look bad.

    1. Re:Except it's not valid by pilkul · · Score: 2, Informative

      Actually, I understand what mostly pissed off Tycho was that his article was put for deletion voting on AFD (Articles for Deletion), where a dozen people ("phalanx of pedants" in Tycho's memorable phrasing) made snide comments about it. So he did hit a problem with Wikipedia: it's well-known that AFD tends to anger newbies to the site and generally cause conflict.

      Note that nowadays the much friendlier Proposed Deletion system is in place for articles which obviously don't fit the guidelines. It's likely that if Tycho had put up his article a few months later than he did it would've been peacefully deleted and he probably wouldn't have this anger against the site.

  26. I have a solution for this by IonSurfer · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Why not have a second, JavaScript scrollbar on the same side as the regular scrollbar, that instead of scrolling down the page scrolls back in time through previous page versions. This would enable any casual reader to easily see how the page has changed.
    Alternatively, why not highlight text that has been changed recently - red for the last 12 hours, orange for the last 24 hours, green for the last week. Clicking on the text would carry you through to the previous version of the page, with the colour of the text changing accordingly.

    I have a problem with the concept of 'authoritative'. It is standardised political delusion. We don't need this. What we do need is a quick way that the reader can detect sabotage. It is then up to the reader to weigh what is said, and determine what to believe or not. The uncritical reader will always be wrong. What we need is a convenient tool for everyone else.

    Regards,
    Roger

  27. Editorial Oversight != Truth (i.e. FOX News) by SRA8 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Editorial Oversight does not necessarily lead to fair and balanced articles, or even truthful articles. For a great living example of this statement, pick up a copy of The New York Post or tune into FOX News.

    1. Re:Editorial Oversight != Truth (i.e. FOX News) by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Editorial Oversight does not necessarily lead to fair and balanced articles, or even truthful articles. For a great living example of this statement, pick up a copy of The New York Post or tune into FOX News.

      For a better example, pick up a copy of the New York Times or tune into CBS News. B-)

      Propaganda doesn't consist of JUST the Big Lie. Some even more effective tools are:
        - omission of contrary opinion and events that don't support the party line,
        - bias in choice of events to report, giving an incorrect view of cost/benefit ratio,
        - ridicule of opposing opinion and claims - direct, by word-choice and word proximity, by false analogy, by association, etc.
      and a host of others. The establishment media outlets use them all - to the point that a media outlet that even mentions non-establishment opinions or events that support them appears hopelessly right-wing to many observers (such as yourself B-) ).

      To make an informed decision you must first be informed. That means you have to hear all significant sides of any issue - whether their claims are true or not.

      What distinguishes FOX News is that it reports both the Left and Right sides of issues.

      If it gives slightly more words to the Right sides, is that because it's slightlly biased to the Right? Or is it because the Left arguments are well-aired and familiar to all viewers, while those of the Right, receiving little coverage elsewhere, need a bit more explaining?

      And does it matter? Is it better to hear a few more words about one side, or to hear ONLY the other?

      As to truth: I challenge you to find examples of out-and-out fraud on FOX News to match those of the weeks of sticking by the transparently-forged Rathergate documents, the pyrotechnics-enhanced "demonstration" of the gas tank hazard, or a number of other similar stunts on the establishment media's flagship shows.

      --
      Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
    2. Re:Editorial Oversight != Truth (i.e. FOX News) by SRA8 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The keyword here is "EXAMPLE." FOX News is an example, NYTimes, Connie Chung, most of mainstream media is biased. I chose FOX news as an EXAMPLE, because it is a wildly extreme example. They will yell at a person who even thinks of mentioning the other side. Then they will call them unpatriotic. It is unpatriotic to think that global warming is taking place. It is unpatriotic to think that soliders dont have enough gear. This is an example of a repressive regime. NYTimes is no better, their one-sided views have caused my damage. But FOX is an easy target, as they dont even pretend to be fair or balanced, they just bound on the truth until it is bloody and cannot speak.

    3. Re:Editorial Oversight != Truth (i.e. FOX News) by Quixote · · Score: 4, Informative
      What distinguishes FOX News is that it reports both the Left and Right sides of issues.

      You've got to be kidding me!

      Fox News (pronounced "Faux News" if you want to use call by value) actively goes out of its way to suppress any news that it thinks could harm the current Administration, or the Republicans in general. Fox has shown absolutely no interest in presenting a balanced view, regardless of how often the mantras "Fair and Balanced" and "We report, you decide" are repeated.

      For a very eye-opening documentary, see Fox News Techniques.

      I have been a newsjunkie for nearly 20 years. I consider myself middle-of-the-road, and take every news report with a grain of salt. Heck, I've voted for Republicans and Democrats about evenly. But I was shocked to see the blatant pandering and partisanship displayed by Fox News. It's like the Republican Party's permanent informercial.

    4. Re:Editorial Oversight != Truth (i.e. FOX News) by killjoe · · Score: 5, Funny

      "What distinguishes FOX News is that it reports both the Left and Right sides of issues."

      Yes for example it examines whether liberals hate america or whether they are merely terrorists.

      I have also heard heated debate on fox news as to whether Hillary Clinton was "pure evil" or merely "very evil".

      Finally I don't think anybody could argue that fox news gives both sides of the important debates on science such as "theory" of evolution vs creationism, the contrversy over global warming and such. Both sides of those issues are to be treated with the same amount of respect.

      --
      evil is as evil does
    5. Re:Editorial Oversight != Truth (i.e. FOX News) by killjoe · · Score: 3, Insightful

      yes Dan rather is just as bad as fox news. I recall clearly how dan rather shouts at his guests, calls them haters of america, shuts off their microphones, and berates them over and over again.

      Oh wait a minute I think that was sean hannity. Never mind. Dan rather is nowhere near as biased as anybody on fox news.

      --
      evil is as evil does
    6. Re:Editorial Oversight != Truth (i.e. FOX News) by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Why does every issue necessarily have a "left" and "right" side?

      Many issues have more than two sides. But most of the power is concentrated in two major camps - labeled "left" and "right". When there's a disagreement between them be ready for them to fight - and for you to be caught in the battle.

      (Of course when they agree with each other and disagree with you, and the first dissent is a third-tier block, you're in deeper trouble.)

      "Fair and balanced" frequently means only an obfuscation of facts. All it takes is one nutbar (on either side of the spectrum) to introduce "the other side". Fox will then dutifully report both sides with (according to their guiding soundbite) equal weight (at best, though typically skewed to the right in presentation). This is bogus.

      And in the situation where the left and right agree and you don't, you're the "nutbar". Then pray that FOX is still around. It might give YOU a chance to be heard by other "nutbars" who could help. You certainly won't be on the establishment media's radar screen (unless they can find enough humor in ridiculing you to fill a vacant slot on a slow news day).

      Is it impossible that there is accepted (evident, rational) truth, beyond politics?

      It is possible.

      But does it matter?

      When the issue is who will run your life, you're in the realm of politics. It behoves you to understand the major power blocks - in advance - so you can be prepared to defend what you hold dear.

      News is about recent and upcoming events that might affect your life. In a "civilized" region where most people are insulated from most natural hazards, the remaining hazards are primarily from human interaction. Those are all related to politics - either directly caused by politics or affected by the environment created by political decisions.

      --
      Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
    7. Re:Editorial Oversight != Truth (i.e. FOX News) by dscruggs · · Score: 2, Informative
      What distinguishes FOX News is that it reports both the Left and Right sides of issues.

      HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!! That's a good one.

      What distinguishes Fox News is that, on average, people who watch it are roughly twice as likely to not know the actual facts, not partisan facts, but really basic stuff like the fact that Sadaam Hussein did not have a meaningful relationship with Al Quaeda.

    8. Re:Editorial Oversight != Truth (i.e. FOX News) by ttfkam · · Score: 3, Informative

      Jane Akre and her husband Steve Wilson are former employees of FOX owned-and-operated station WTVT in Tampa, Florida. In 1997 they refused to work on their story (about Monsanto's use of BGH) after FOX tried to force them to include knowingly false information. They successfully sued under Florida's whistle blower law and were awarded a $425,000 settlement. However, FOX appealed and won, after the court declared that FCC policy against falsification that FOX violated was just a policy and not a "law, rule, or regulation", and so the whistle blower law did not apply.

      FOX did not dispute that it tried to force Akre to broadcast a false story, but argued that, under the First Amendment, broadcasters have the right to lie or deliberately distort news reports.

      In 2004 FOX countersued Akre and Wilson for trial fees and costs.

      Was this one case the worst possible thing that could happen? Of course not. But doesn't it give you pause that the First Amendment was used as a public justification to lie or deliberately distort news reports? On how many other stories did they exercise this right?

      --

      - I don't need to go outside, my CRT tan'll do me just fine.
    9. Re:Editorial Oversight != Truth (i.e. FOX News) by cold+fjord · · Score: 3, Informative
      Fox News (pronounced "Faux News" if you want to use call by value) actively goes out of its way to suppress any news that it thinks could harm the current Administration, or the Republicans in general.

      I suppose we should take it for granted that it isn't just liberals, but that every fair-minded observer will label Fox News as "Faux News"?

      Well, if your assertion is true, there shouldn't be any stories about Abu Ghraib, the NSA surveillance program, or the CIA secret prison story, and yet there are.

      For a very eye-opening documentary, see Fox News Techniques.

      I watched it. I'm underwhelmed. It "surprisingly" reveals that prominent liberal organizations and critics pan Fox News. I found it interesting that they focused so heavily on opinion / commentary segments for their claims of bias instead of actual hard news reporting. Stop the presses! People engaged in commentary have opinions!

      I have been a newsjunkie for nearly 20 years. I consider myself middle-of-the-road, and take every news report with a grain of salt. Heck, I've voted for Republicans and Democrats about evenly. But I was shocked to see the blatant pandering and partisanship displayed by Fox News. It's like the Republican Party's permanent informercial.

      Your stated view of yourself as "middle-of-the-road" strikes me as being similar to that demonstrated these days by many in the media:
      THE ARGUMENT over whether the national press is dominated by liberals is over. Since 1962, there have been 11 surveys of the media that sought the political views of hundreds of journalists. In 1971, they were 53 percent liberal, 17 percent conservative. In a 1976 survey of the Washington press corps, it was 59 percent liberal, 18 percent conservative. A 1985 poll of 3,200 reporters found them to be self-identified as 55 percent liberal, 17 percent conservative. In 1996, another survey of Washington journalists pegged the breakdown as 61 percent liberal, 9 percent conservative. Now, the new study by the Pew Research Center for the People and the Press found the national media to be 34 percent liberal and 7 percent conservative.

      Over 40-plus years, the only thing that's changed in the media's politics is that many national journalists have now cleverly decided to call themselves moderates. But their actual views haven't changed, the Pew survey showed. Their political beliefs are close to those of self-identified liberals and nowhere near those of conservatives. And the proportion of liberals to conservatives in the press, either 3-to-1 or 4-to-1, has stayed the same. That liberals are dominant is now beyond dispute.

      Well, I guess that Fox News will never be another New York Times with its fair mindedness and influence on policy, or CBS News with its steady hands, or even a CNN with its thoughtful leadership. I guess they will have to live with that.

      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
    10. Re:Editorial Oversight != Truth (i.e. FOX News) by glesga_kiss · · Score: 2, Insightful
      A number of major figures in Sadam Husein's security aparatus have been documented to have had a relationship with Al Quaeda, and Sadam's regime has been documented to have had a program that paid pensions to the families of suicide bombers.

      Janine Melnitz: "We've got one!!"

      No one in power in Iraq has Al Qaida contacts. There were camps in the north, but they were Saddams enemies. In fact, Bin Laden offered to have Saddam assasinated back when he was on the CIA payroll. You'll need to get past your racist tendancies and realise that not all of "the colored" are in league together to creep up behind you and scream "boo". Some of them hate each other more than they hate your leaders.

      So claiming "Sadam Husein did not have a meaningful relationship with Al Quaeda" as one of the "actual facts, not partisan facts

      It is an absolute, undeniable, undebatable FACT. There were NO WMD, never were; even when we keep getting loser with the term WMD. Even if we'd found chemical weapons, they aren't and never would have been WMD. The Al Qaida relationship was nothing more than clever world play and linglistic programming by your leaders. "Terrorist, Saddam, Terrorist, Saddam", if you repeat the mantra long enough it sticks. Your leaders DELIBERATELY and CAULOUSLY misled the majority of the US population into believing that the Iraq invasion had ANYTHING to do with 9-11. Would it confuse you too much if I were to point out that the Iraq campaign has been in planning by Cheeny and Rumsfeld since at least 1997? And that it's just the first stage of their plans for the middle east? Google "PNAC" to see their official website, it's all there in the publications section. Look at the alumni behind the group.

      The fact that people like you still exist in 2006 shows that something utterly rotten is afoot in the USA.

    11. Re:Editorial Oversight != Truth (i.e. FOX News) by cold+fjord · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Hannity is in the commentary side of the business. Rather was allegedly in the hard news side of the business.

      Dan rather is nowhere near as biased as anybody on fox news.

      No doubt it was his dispassionate search for the truth that blinded him to the pathetic forgeries in the Memogate/Rathergate scandal. A pity they didn't have a little more ideological and intellectual diversity there to speak truth to power and hopefully avoid that train wreck. They weren't so much unbiased as unhinged.

      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
    12. Re:Editorial Oversight != Truth (i.e. FOX News) by cold+fjord · · Score: 2, Informative

      FOX did not dispute that it tried to force Akre to broadcast a false story, but argued that, under the First Amendment, broadcasters have the right to lie or deliberately distort news reports.

      Not quite.

      Try this and this for a somewhat better description of what happened.

      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
    13. Re:Editorial Oversight != Truth (i.e. FOX News) by Bastian · · Score: 2, Informative

      Fox has to report things that everyone else is reporting, otherwise their reputation will only get worse. Part of it's in the way that Fox News reports things - wordings, the details they pay most attention to, spin, etc.

      Part of it's that Fox News doesn't even claim to be a legitimate news organization. Please, please, please let us not forget that Fox News is the organization that won the court decision in Florida saying they are under no obligation to not outright lie about the news.

      Though, of course, I suppose that anyone who is willing to trust a news outlet that has freely admitted, "Yup, we lie about the news, and we're going to fight to defend our right to do so in court," can be free to do so. And they can be free to claim that anyone who detracts from Fox News is just being partisan, too. After all, politics in the USA has never been about right or wrong, or what's best for the country or its citizens. It's more of a 230-year-long pissing match akin to the Yankees-Red Sox rivalry, with the unfortunate detail that it also has an affect on people's lives.

    14. Re:Editorial Oversight != Truth (i.e. FOX News) by ttfkam · · Score: 3, Informative
      Those links do indeed provide more information about the conflict and the initial trial itself. They say nothing about the appeal, which overturned the initial ruling. In that appeal, as I shamelessly copied and pasted earlier, Fox argued that broadcasters have the right to lie or deliberately distort news reports. The reasoning of course was that truth-telling is an FCC policy, not a law. Curious though how this "guideline" is deemed unenforceable and yet saying "fuck" or "shit" on the radio could potentially net you a fine of $30,000 per offense. (I volunteer at a radio station.)

      From one of your linked articles:
      The First Amendment dictates that the news media should regulate themselves. The judicial, legislative and executive branches must keep out of it.

      Really? So newspapers should be allowed to commit libel with impunity? What about plagiarism? No? But who enforces those laws? It couldn't be the government, could it? The media has never effectively policed itself, at least not recently. If it were solely up to broadcasters, they would probably replace the news with game shows since game shows have better ratings and ad revenue by far. You think it's by accident that every major broadcaster has a news program? No, they are required to have one through terms with Congress and the FCC.

      Who gave Fox and the other broadcasters those airwaves for pennies on the dollar in the first place, those public airwaves? The government. Why did the government originally give broadcasters this bandwidth allocation on the cheap? So that they would maintain certain standards, provide education, and news on current events. I'm not asking that government okay everything before it can be published. Quite the contrary. However, I am also quite certain that if a news organization using my public airwaves makes a conscious decision to distort, I want that news editor's head on a pike. There's a difference between a mistake and a lie. I see no reason why it shouldn't apply to the New York Times just as much as the New York Post, or Fox as much as CBS. It's not about liberal vs. conservative. It's about public trust.

      Do you remember GI Joe and He-Man? Remember how cartoons like them had "educational" segments in the last few minutes of every show? The reason is because broadcasters are legally required to have certain minimum amounts of educational content. GI Joe and He-Man as they originally existed had absolutely no educational or socially redeeming value whatsoever. Therefore (rather than rework the shows to be better) segments were pasted on at the end telling kids not to talk to strangers and not to go swimming after a thunderstorm.

      You want government out of TV broadcasting? Fine. Tell them to give back the airwaves, and we'll call it even.
      --

      - I don't need to go outside, my CRT tan'll do me just fine.
    15. Re:Editorial Oversight != Truth (i.e. FOX News) by ktappe · · Score: 3, Insightful
      I have been a newsjunkie for nearly 20 years. I consider myself middle-of-the-road, and take every news report with a grain of salt. Heck, I've voted for Republicans and Democrats about evenly. But I was shocked to see the blatant pandering and partisanship displayed by Fox News. It's like the Republican Party's permanent informercial.
      Your stated view of yourself as "middle-of-the-road"
      No, he did not just state a view; he provided evidence. If he only thought he was a moderate, he would not have voted for Republicans or monitored all (not just liberal) news outlets for two decades. You do not seem capable of (or willing to) distinguish between opinion and fact.

      strikes me as being similar to that demonstrated these days by many in the media
      It would only strike you that way if you were eager to write off anyone who disagrees with you as a liberal and therefore "one of them". The original poster specifically demonstrated that he was a moderate, a position you apparently dismiss out of hand as not even existing. This indicates you are an extremist. The world is shades of grey, not all black and white.

      Well, I guess that Fox News will never be another New York Times [foxnews.com] with its fair mindedness [whitehouse.gov]
      Did you really just cite Fox News and the White House as authorities on whether or not the NYT is fair minded?!? Do you even comprehend the concept of bias, regardless of whether it is right- or left-wing? Those two "authorities" you refer to are the furthest it is possible to be from being disinterested 3rd parties with regard to the NYT. Fox has a monetarily-derived conflict of interest on this subject and the White House has a power-derived one. As I stated above, you seem unwilling to accept that there is such a position as a moderate, one that can understand both sides of an issue and report on them with minimal bias. If you did understand this concept, you would have cited one or more moderate references, not right-wing ones.

      -Kurt

      --
      "We can categorically state we have not released man-eating badgers into the area." - UK military spokesman, July 2007
  28. The solution is to let it get bigger by ChaseTec · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Each page(sometimes a grouping) needs to become it's own community. I run a forum about writing operating systems and I've just setup a mediawiki to contain osdev(as it's called) information. My mediawiki requires accounts to edit/post content to the wiki and (with a free mediawiki plugin)the accounts are just forum members that I've placed in a certain group. Myself and fellow moderators can very easly determine who has valid content to contribute to a osdev wiki but it's just to overwhelming to try to maintain that level of control for topics I'm not familiar with. You compare just the "amateur systems" section on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osdev with my project list at http://www.osdev.org/wiki/index.php/Projects, 23 vs 132 OS projects listed. I'm not saying that people visiting the Osdev page on wikipedia should be redirected to my site, I think more community features need to be added to mediawiki. I say lock all pages and require community involvement to gain editing rights. You might lose a poster that just wanted to dump off information but that's why I have a forum for people to make requests in. Basically the forums become the filter/distiller for the wiki in the long run.

    --
    My Hello World is 512 bytes. But it's also a valid Fat12 boot sector, Fat12 file reader, and Pmode routine.
  29. Old news... by Anne+Honime · · Score: 4, Informative
    This type of 'accident' may happen even on paper, depending on the slant of a writer or / and an editor. Case in point : France's most notorious (if not most serious) encyclopedia "for the masses" is the Larousse. In the first edition (circa 1870), at the entry "Bonaparte", you could read "Born in Ajaccio 08/15/1769, died in St Cloud, 18 brumaire an VIII of the Republic (11/9/1799)".

    As you may know, on this day, Bonaparte made a coup d'État and thus became known as "Napoléon"...

    Every time a single person (or institution) is in charge of the writing / editing of any article, a risk exists, and that's why a) encyclopaedias are not scholar references b) science suppose peer review.

    1. Re:Old news... by Jugalator · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And now you're also only bringing up encyclopedias to compare with Wikipedia. I think one should keep in mind that this guy is talking about a current event, and looking at Wikipedia right at that moment. In that case, the articles are more at risk of being partially complete, contain misinformation or not had time to be vandalism checked properly. A better parallel in this case would be reading a news paper's breaking news, and accuracy check that. Chances are the journalists can have similar misinformation there. And then it's a more serious matter, as an editor can't step in 5 second later and correct your copy of that paper.

      --
      Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
  30. It has safeguards already. by S.P.B.Wylie · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Wikipedia has already taken care of false information problems, in a variety of creative ways.

    First, you have to remember that important article are hit thousands of times by various people, and since everyone has ability to edit, problems can often be quickly cleaned up. I feel that slashdot proves that if you though enough geeks at something, truth comes to the surface quickly.

    Second, Wikipedia strongly supports citing sources. Try moving around Wikipedia, and you will soon find a header stating that "this article needs sources" and basically a warning that it may contain gibberish. When you are doing things of importance, you should always check sources. Especially when dealing with something like Wikipedia. This is also an advantage Wikipedia: unlike most encyclopedias, where you have to go find the sources, Wikipedia is point and click.

    Wikipedia is the the greatest proof that the Market Place of Ideas works. It shows that when you throw enough ideas together, the truth will survive. Though we may have unfortunate events like the one in the article, almost all information is accurate, and problems are quickly solved.

    --
    I give bread to the poor, they call me a saint.
    I ask why the poor have no bread, they call me a communist.
    1. Re:It has safeguards already. by crossmr · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Hah. God you're naive. As someone working on cleaning up articles cited on garbage, no wikipedia doesn't support it. People are all to happy to have an unsourced, original research article be kept because "I find it really useful even though none of it can be sourced reliably, lalalala".

      The admins are all to happy to close AfDs with noconcensus even though the delete side says "It violates policies x,y,z" and the keep side says "I like it, the article is pretty and I'm wearing blue shorts today".

  31. Good Point by Bill,+Shooter+of+Bul · · Score: 2, Insightful

    That is true, but I would argue simply that an encyclepedia that is 100% correct cannot exist, even if you exclued the recent and controversial. I think thats a true statement. Or rather, I think it could be made, but most people wouldn't agree that it was 100% correct. Most people simply disagree on the truth, although that does not mean that objective truth doesn't exist. Do you see what I'm saying? It gets really complex, just trying to talk about it.

    --
    Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
  32. Re:Too recent & controversial for an encyclope by sbaker · · Score: 3, Informative

    I think the correct solution in this case it not to argue content but to file a 'Request for Deletion' - explaining that the term is a neologism. That - together with the "No original research" rule should get rid of the offending article in short order.

    --
    www.sjbaker.org
  33. Re:I've always been ... by Skater · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I imagine it's similarly painful for experts in other fields to hear their field discussed by reporters.

    I'm a statistician, and I can attest that is DEFINITELY the case for me. Few days go by that I don't see or hear bad statistics in papers, magazines, radio, or television. Informal internet polls get reported as fact (I'm looking at you, Popular Science)... few statistics give any sort of error margin, and even if they do, many times the person reporting the statistic doesn't understand the importance of the error margin (for example, the infamous boys are better at math than girls claim)... Yeah. Anyone with basic software can churn out a number and claim they have a good statistic, after they've (intentionally or unintentionally) biased their results.

  34. Wikipedia duplicates its' users beliefs... by RecycledElectrons · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Wikipedia is a duplicate of what the wiki community believes the world is. If 10% of people are convinced that Elvis faked his death (or whatever) then 10% of the time, that will be on Wikipedia.

    For example, I edited the articles for the RIAA, MPAA, and BSA to state that they were "organized crime families, that...da da da" That stayed in place for over a year before some evil, black-heareted editor removed the truth that the wiki community had agreed on.

    The morons who think they know everything will claim that wikipedia should only be edited to show the "truth" as they know it. These are the same people who would deny that any media ever gets any story wrong. I'm certain that half of everything I know is wrong, so I'm always intersted in another point of view.

    Andy Out!

  35. So use the history button. by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The fact remains that for controversial topics, depending on the time of day I hit the page, I'm presented with different information. That's not a good thing.

    You're also presented with a button to give you the edit history. Use it.

    The older versions are still there. And the comments of the people who made the changes about WHY they did so are there, too. You'll be able to tell if there is a controversy in progress and what all the sides of the argument are. Then make your own choice.

    Try THAT with Brittanica. Or the New York Times. Or CBS News.

    --
    Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
  36. Not fud by crossmr · · Score: 2, Interesting

    honeslty I don't see this as fud. Fud to me is someone needless, or warrantless spreading doubt about something. Doubt about wikipedia is justified. As a whole, society and people are stupid. When groups get together things inevitably turn into a gong show. Wikipedia is just another example of something that got ruined by a bunch of people using it.

    As I said on the other wikipedia article here not too long ago:
    its very easy for a few idiots to get together and muddle things into no concensus. You could write an article on something remotely notable that couldn't possibly have any sources and easily have it kept by having a few buddies show up for the AfD. They don't get major exposure, and all it takes is a handful 90% of the time. Part of the blame for this lies with the admins. Most seem lazy and unwilling to do anything that requires work. AfDs are supposed to be debates, and they insist that what it is, but admins often just tally the responses and go based on that, if an AfD look like this:

    Delete - Violates WP:OR
    Delete - not notable, original research, violates WP:V
    Delete - as above
    Keep - pickles
    keep - spork
    keep - I like ponies!

    they would simply close it as a no concensus even though its clear the people who want the article kept are brain damaged.

    Admins also aren't content editors. In a content dispute, they'll protect the article or block those involved in an edit war, but they won't go "Yeah, you're full of crap, stop trying to add that ridiculous information". Which basically means when blocks and page protection expire, they go at it again. There are two IPs that have been warring over Herner Werzog's nationality, an admin will randomly semi-protect the page, but it expires and they come back and fight over it again. These kind of things damage wikipedia a lot. Until they start actively dealing with these things, its going to suffer, and likely fail.

  37. ALL Sources are Biased by edward.virtually@pob · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The common whine about Wikipedia and "editorial neutrality" reflects the common ignorance of the fact that ALL sources have biases. At least in Wikipedia's case, the issue of bias is openly accepted, discussed, and worked around/with.

  38. Re:Add a stability value to a page? by sbaker · · Score: 2, Informative

    Look for the little gold star in the top right corner of articles that have been through the 'Featured Article' mill. My own article on the "Mini" for example.

    --
    www.sjbaker.org