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Hydrogen Powered Toy Car
Harmonious Botch writes "CNN is reporting that Shanghai's Horizon Fuel Cell Technologies will soon begin sales of a tiny hydrogen fuel-cell car, complete with its own miniature solar-powered refueling station." From the article: "Automakers and energy companies view hydrogen fuel cells as a promising technology that could wean the world from its addiction to crude oil. But it's expensive and technological hurdles remain despite billions of dollars that have been poured into research."
So will all the kids be able to setup hydrogen stands when the real cars comeout?
3 miles to a mole of hydrogen!!!
http://www.horizonfuelcell.com/buynow.php
Personally, I think that this is a great idea, not so much because of the concept itself, but it might at least make the current kid generation think a bit more about the science behind it. As soon as I read the summary, without even going into the article itself, I thought back about the rechargeable racing cars that I had when I was a kid -- put two D batteries in the charger, plug the cable into the little racing car, hold the button for one minute to charge the car, put it on the plastic Hot Wheels track, and let it speed along. It always fascinated me how I could recharge the car over and over again. Granted, this was the early 1980s, but it was one of those things that got me interested in science -- how the hell does this silly car work?
Now rechargeable batteries are the norm. But "rechargable" hydrogen? I can see where the kids of today (and maybe even some adults) would take an interest in this and think about getting involved in expanding it on a larger scale. I even like the thought about how this technology could be used to reduce the amount of batteries that get thrown into landfills every year.
Of course, having worked with hydrolysis in 7th grade, science class might give me a bit more interest in this than it would most people.
The Overrated mod is for reversing inappropriate, positive mods, not for voicing disagreement with a post.
while it is clear that hydrogen appears to be the future, it is important to recognize that our current hydrogen supply is derived from hydrocarbons like oil and coal. although coal gassification + the water-gas shift reaction do provide hydrogen and carbon dioxide, it is not in pure form (containing too much water vapor) which will allow for a closed loop system necessary for a car. additionally, getting hydrogen from a hydrocarbon source does not remove our dependency on foreign sources of fuel, but merely recycles them. we need to find ways to gain hydrogen and alternative energies which allow us to be independent of others.
Most human beings have an almost infinite capacity for taking things for granted. - Aldous Huxley
http://www.icubenetwork.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t= 98
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Meyer
Is China another word for porn?
Kudos!
My idea is for inside the city, at intersections put solar cells in the middle (under thick glass), and have hydrogen injectors for cars at red lights.
http://www.jaycar.com.au/products_uploaded/product Large_9528.jpg
5
http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=KT252
They also sell fuel cell's separately!
We played dungeons and dragons for 3 hours.....then i was slain by an elf
A true American drives an SUV.
Are tiny people gonna drive these tiny cars with tiny fuel cells?
Huh? Huh??? (while prodding someone smaller nearby)
I guess next the auto industry is going to start advertising that these prove that fuelcell vehicles are going to be here real soon now.
:-/
I find it funny that the press will 'bang' on the Tesla for costing 80,000 but they'll show those $1,000,000 hydrogen fuelcell vehicles without mentioning the cost.
I guess it's all in days work of keeping the public naive.
LoB
"Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
Thames and Kosmos already have produced a fuel cell car kit that works fairly well. (I.E. you really can use photovoltaics to split distilled 2*H20 into 2*H2 + O2, and recombine it to provide power to run the car.) This has been out for what, two years? Good to see they're getting more popular, I guess.
Paleotechnologist and connoisseur of pretty shiny things.
as in, you can't get (meaningful) quantities of hydrogen
h ydrogen_answers.htmlt oryid=581
out of the ground.
See also for example:
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/081803_
http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=article&s
among many other reports of why the heralded hydrogen economy
has a place in the pantheon of the FSM and his noodly appendage.
nobody provides any freakin links on this site http://www.horizonfuelcell.com/buynow.php
It's a dream that's been pursued for years by governments, energy companies and automakers so far without success: Mass-producing affordable electric-powered cars that spew nothing from their tailpipes. So Jada Toys decided to start small. Really small....yada yada yada....
L XKGY5&P=7
n try&authorid=51&blogid=104
http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=
The article quoted:
"Public awareness and education are the first steps toward commercialization," said Horizon founder Taras Wankewycz, 32. "We want to make sure this technology gets adapted globally."
what bull. This is just a ploy to delay the use of existing, disruptive, technologies while the oil industry cranks out as much profits as it can.
Go see "Who Killed the Electric Car" and read this on how the oil industry won't let battery makers build NiMH batteries large enough for EVs:
http://www.evworld.com/blogs/index.cfm?page=bloge
LoB
"Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
When the researchers themselves are packing it in despite the increasing availability of funding for alternative energy research, it's all over.
The places where hydrogen is viable are the ones where there's plenty of cheap "green" energy... like Iceland. The US is not one of those places. Ethanol isn't going to replace all the gasoline we use, either, no matter how many agribusinesses want to make it so. There isn't enough farmland. The Brazillians can make it work because their climate and soil favor sugar cane in a way that ours doesn't and because there aren't as many of them or as many motor vehicles.
The main use that hydrogen has for the rest of us is a "desperately needs a clue" detector... anyone who talks about "the hydrogen economy of the future" can automatically be pigeonholed as being full of shit. Let this be a lesson to you with respect to who you ought to be listening to about "green" energy.
This isn't to say that Kunstler's babbling bullshit about "there is NO alternative energy future" is true, either. The most interesting research I know of is algae biomass > biodiesel, which already has a couple or three VC-funded efforts going on.
Tech Public Policy stuff
I bought a Thames Kosmos Fuel Cell Car and Experiement Kit a couple of years ago. It's a neat little demo of fuel cell technology, and uses distilled water, a solar panel, and a fuel cell.m l
http://www.thamesandkosmos.com/products/fc/fc2.ht
Get 'em while they're young. This is genius.
But who killed the electric car?!
I needed a mobile launch platform for my hydrogen-fueled rockets.
With the cost of petrol in Australia, we should be encouraging manufacturers to develop alternate fueled vechicles. Other Alternative is: http://www.biodiesel.org.au/
Bwa hahaha ha HAaaaaaaaa...
... WITH MY TOY CAR!!!
Pinky: "Gee, Brain, what should we do tonight?"
Brain: "The same thing we do every night Pinky."
Pinky: "What's that Brain?"
Brain: "Try to take over the world!"
Check out: http://www.goodideacreative.com/fuel_cell.html.
... which gives you about 0.5V. Of course you need to built a lot to do anything useful. Anyway, even without building anything, it's worth it just for the reading.
They have a number of downloadable PDF booklets for sale that go to incredible detail in explaining how to make fuel cell systems. I bought one about a year ago. Admittedly I haven't built anything yet ( procrastinating ), but I've sourced all the parts, and it looks like you can built cells for around $40 ( Australian ) per cell
Automakers and energy companies view hydrogen fuel cells as a promising technology that could wean the world from its addiction to crude oil. But it's expensive and technological hurdles remain despite billions of dollars that have been poured into research.
This is what we call bull shit. You see, Fuel cell cars require fuel. That fuel comes from somewhere... most likely, converted fossil fuels sourced from natural gas or methane. Fuel cells provide no additional efficiencies because the conversion process from fossil fuel to hydrogen to electricity to an electric drivetrain is simply less efficient than just burning that fossil fuel in an efficient internal combustion engine.
Sure, you can use Nuclear or Solar power to make hydrogen too... but you know what? That's more expensive than using fossil fuels.
So why the hype?
1. Venture captialists love anyone "investing billions" into their start-ups.
2. Even oil companies love this kind of an investment, because it limits investment in other, non-fossil areas such as "reducing consumption", solar, geothermal, and nuclear.
Fuel Cells do have their place... they can be very effective for energy storage and conversion. But they will never be energy efficent in an automobile. Anyone who tells you otherwise is either ignorant or looking for a handout.
People already see China as the villain. ROFLMAOZOMG
200 years of coal you say. There might not be anyone around to run the plants...
http://www.harbornet.com/sunflower/hotter.html
Normal window glazing and peoples little fuzzy house pets kill orders of magnitudes more birds every year than wind chargers. And the neurons are TEARING DOWN currently constructed water dams so that some fish, which could be easily trucked around the dam by the thousands, can "swim unhindered" upstream.
Idiots!
So, we should kill all the house cats and tear down all the buildings, or board up the windows at least as well? For the birds?
I just don't get it on slashdot with alternative energy. Everyone here (mostly) is probably an old computer user, dropped serious cash on technology you have to pay to have hauled away now, it is that old and useless..but we all dropped serious coin on it in the olden days. But because current alternate energy tech isn't "perfect" yet--oh noes, it'll never work, it has too many problems, too 'spensive..oh mee oh my!!! etc.
Rubbish. Ask any one of those people across the country right now who has NO electricity from relying on the centrally located mega profits companies grid supplied electric whether or not a little de-centralized electric production might be better. You know, like more power plants, wind is nice, or solar panels on individual houses, etc. Go ahead, once they get back online how they feel about the big cos electric supply.
We've tried that "all your eggs in one basket" approach and take a look-it has a lot of problems too, from sticker shock, utility rates rising every year, to enron scams (you really think they are over, or they are just hiding their thievery better?), you get to be a perpetual renter of electricty to just plain lack of same-when you need it the most.
If you wait for computers to be the ultimate and perfect you'll never own one. If you wait for "alternative" energy to be ultimate and perfect before you use it on a mass scale..you'll be shivering in a cave someplace. That is what is going to happen if people keep procrastinating and just "studying" it or waiting for government to "do something" about it. Go ahead, wait for perfection, go buy another 10 kilowatts of juice sucking devices and keep hoping things will get magically better. That should work.
Go look at real numbers, we are running out. There hasn't been a SINGE mega field of oil found in decades now-decades. Gee, "the market" can't come up with another mega field. Wonder why..maybe it DON'T EXIST? Ok-swell, we'll switch to "coal". Uh huh, check about 98% of all scientists latest papers, that stuff is killing the atmosphere, you know, AIR, that stuff? Global climate change, etc? What a *wonderful* solution-not! And my fav, "we'll just build more NUKES!" I DARE anyone-you to try and find one commercial reactor that has electricity being sold "too cheap to meter", like I personally remember being said way back in the day. Where is the penny (or less) a kilowatt hour stuff? Decades ago, DECADES, they PROMISED to come up with a clean way to dispose of spent reactor fuel, the best they had back then was "submerge in pools of water or deep burial". Guess what, the pompous science-twits have since then, after billions of dollars in study come up with "submerge in pools of water and deep burial", along with keep fingers crossed. And have to install SAM missiles at all sites, in perpetuity. lovely.
It's never been cheap (barely beats coal by only a fraction of a cent now and today DOESN'T beat natgas), and there is NO long range viable solution for de buggifying nuclear waste. You can re process it-then what-the crap that is left over is "nasty stuff", as in WMD styled nasty stuff. Oh ya, we NEED more of that! Shoot, we might run out! They can't do it, there's no way to do it cheap and clean, and you want to trust them industry bozos with a track record of lying and obfuscation with 1,000 or 2,000 new nuke plants around the globe? Go ahead, run the odds..let's see, humans always have wars...every podunk "military force" now from small to huge has missiles..couple thousand new nuke plants around the planet..one missile gets through..whoo
That's a modest proposal. Now how small would these people have to be? About 1/12 scale?
I'm so sick of china pumping out shit they swear up and down they invented.
k osmos/fuel_cell_car.cfm?CFID=17758445&CFTOKEN=6801 3201
Not like fuel cell toy cars haven't been around for a while.
http://www.discoverthis.com/fuelcelcaran.html
http://www.fatbraintoys.com/toy_companies/thames_
... what did you expect, something profound?
Here in Australia, I noted with interest from Jaycar (http://www.jaycar.com.au - an electronics distributor), had a fuel cell model car in their latest catalogue, along with a (small) fuel cell. Generates hydrogen given electricity, produces electricity given hydrogen. The model car is here:http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=K T2525
Get with the program. That was last year's conspiracy theory! This year we're supposed to talk about how Lex Luthor is causing global warming because he bought beach front property in Nevada.
Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
I know Jaycar http://www1.jaycar.com.au/ have had a fuel cell powered toy car out for a while. They also have the 30mW Proton Exchange Membrane (PEM) Fuel Cell for sale seperately.
Though, it is neat to see such a toy car. And I would be interested in this little toy as a simple display model. I like the idea of holding tommorrow's future cars now.
However, automakers already have a hydrogen fuel cell car. It's not just an experiment or in progress car. It is a real concept car that is ready for the road. The Honda FCX (The first company to bring us the hybrid with Insight.) announced last January that it will begin production of it's concept car in 3 - 4 years in Japan. Also, they got home fueling stations in the works.
Many california residents product may seen Honda's working model FCX car driven by many of it's residents. It's been reported around 100 cars and buses. California also has dozen or so fueling stations scattered across LA and SF. NC will also have one built at Camp Pendleton.
I only wish the Communist News Network (CNN) would stop spreading lies and saying Hydrogen cars aren't ready yet. They are here, being used and will be ready for commercialization in 3 - 4 years.
\
How about just putting water in your car and doing electrolysis on it before injecting the hydrogen and oxygen into the motor? You know, water = H2O = fuel x 2 + oxygen?
Then we won't have to worry about accidents... "Oh no, there's water everywhere!"
Why look, another fine example of patents encouraging innovation...
"You're everywhere. You're omnivorous."
read this on how the oil industry won't let battery makers build NiMH batteries large enough for EVs
http://www.megabatteries.com/items.asp?cat_id=63
KFG
The Earth will be fine... it's the flora and fauna with which we might choose to treat with more respect. Included with the fauna is man.
Ultimately, it doesn't matter what anyone says about global warming, all we've got to work with is the various solutions that reduce our footprint on the planet. Of those, we have various forms of generating power (and storing it) that result in no or substantially less off-gassing of CO2. We get to choose them or die. It's just that simple.
My favorite solution is photovoltaic and passive solar power. PV has been around for 50 years, and is quickly becoming cost-effective. It can quickly replace fossil fuels should we choose to get serious about it.
PV is capable of being used as a catalyst to separate water allowing the energy of the sun to be stored as hydrogen. Although storage is an issue, there are a number of solutions. They don't need as much to be researched and developed as much as simply chosen and implemented by you, the public.
Wind is a viable player, water (of course), among a variety of other smaller players such as geothermal, wave, tidal and nuclear. Not any one of these could save our species, currently teetering on the brink of extinction, embracing them all probably would, however. Additionally, we must capture and store CO2. These are technologies for solving the problem. The method to do so involves education and prayer. I'm praying that we have time to provide a home for the children. Please pray with me. This is not a subject that we should bicker and argue about.
I suggest that we embrace all of them, but place particular emphasis on solar power. Solar is the most viable technology because it is produced centrally, and deployed anywhere. It is much less geographically sensitive, and is a viable source of energy for the vast majority of the users of power. This issue is not being argued, but is is being proven (regardless of what certain naysayers here on this board have spouted with such wild abandon).
My company (http://iTitanium.com/) has found a new source of silica. When our process of this new mineral is proven to have a low enough boron and phosphorus content, we may be able to substantially reduce the cost of producing solar grade silicon. Anyone aware of the industry would know that the high cost of solar grade silicon is the only reason you don't have a solar PV array on your roof right now.
I have the vision, and I've shared it with a number of people who want more than just impressive returns on their investment but also a good feeling about doing what they can to return the planet to a condition that supports human life (not to mention millions of other species).
Thank you for saving the planet with me.
SolarVisionary...
Now children won't have to give up their fuel-guzzling toy SUVs and Hummers!
is probably considerably more cost-effective. We want a vegetable oil that can be changed into biodiesel, for us, leaves, stalks and roots are just a waste of solar energy and fertilizer in this case. An algae species suitable for biomass fuel can be looked at as a cellular membrane enclosing a mixture of PUFA, water, and crud.
Tech Public Policy stuff
In general, it depends on which species and what conditions they're grown under. If you want an overview, go here.
Note: one area on which there seems to be a consensus. If one is primarily interested in growing biomass energy, don't bother with open air ponds. Too hard to keep unwanted algae species from growing.
Tech Public Policy stuff
G.I. Joe will get better milage while fighting the Cobra/opec forces? or will the new batmobile not have its trademark jet?
Cool. Does this mean you dont need gunpowder anymore to blow up your toys? After firecrackers were banned it was pretty hard to wreak suitable destruction, what with the local gunsmith refusing to sell me blackpowder and then the farming supply shop refusing to sell me weed killer and fertiliser, it was just too hard. A cannister full of hydrogen sounds like a hoot.
Haha! America is the best fucker, and don't forget it. You haven't the slightest clue about jack shit- It's called Globalization. America isn't going anywhere. The evils of the world are lucky we haven't lost our temper yet. Semper Fi //
The discussion of "wheel-to-wells efficiency" in the Tesla Motors whitepaper seems compelling, only provided that batteries get cheaper as seems likely. Hybrid vehicles seem designed to create auto-maintenance-jobs, what a mess... http://www.teslamotors.com/media/white_papers.php
"All I can say is I'm glad I don't live in Kansas."
Makes two of us- please stay in the shithole you currently reside, k thx bye..
In a recent episide of the Mythbusters on the Discovery channel, Adam and Jamie tested rather unscientifically, blowing pure hydrogen directly into the carbeurator. The car ran.
We don't need to wait for highly advanced fuel cells to run our cars. With some modification a gas engine can on run hydrogen and oxygen from the air. Maybe not with a 300 mile cruiling range, but it works. Alternatively, a diesel engine can burn veggie oil with _no_ modification, refuse from your local McDonalds. What are we waiting for?
Why be so recent, google electric cars.
One link points out they existed back in the 1800's
http://www.didik.com/ev_hist.htm
They just weren't competitive then and aren't competative today.
Hydrogen is being pushed because it is a zero emissions solution, and that makes people happy. Problem is that NIMBY becomes less relevant when you're talking global issues (warming and oil shortages)
Just the fact this doesn't need batteries and could potentially be played with for a long time (I wonder how it deals with hard water mind) could make this a big hit, think how many toys you has as a kid that got wasted because you needed more batteries! This could be scary for the battery companies kind of equivalent to petrol companies but on a smaller scale :)
I get 3 mile islands to a mole of uranium!!!
FRA: STFU GTFO
Where do I get one?
i am not sure if you all read Physlink.com but it is a great site. ANy ways they have been selling a Fule Cell Toy Car Build it your self kit. from their site: A Science Kit for the 21st Century! Endless hours of fun and learning as you assemble and experiment with a unique reversible fuel cell. This new Thames & Kosmos Fuel Cell Kit provides a playful introduction to one of the most significant technologies of the 21st Century. With this kit you can build a model car that actually runs on water! Now that we have your attention, roll up your sleeves and find out more through experiments and demonstrations you can do on your own, in a classroom or with friends. Fuel cells are one of the most promising means of producing energy in the future. Because they do not consume fossil fuels they are considered environmentally friendly. Automobile manufacturers are already experimenting successfully with this technology and it is widely believed that fuel cells will become the energy source for automobiles in the near future. With this unique kit, you can build your own experimental reversible fuel cell car to learn more about this energy source. With more than 30 experiments and demonstrations, provided either in the kit or on our web site, users will learn how a reversible fuel cell works to perform electrolysis as well as to create energy. The electricity required to activate electrolysis is created with a large solar cell included with the kit. During electrolysis, water is separated into hydrogen and oxygen and the resulting energy is stored as a gas. When needed, the gas is fed into the fuel cell, which then serves as the power source. The Thames & Kosmos Fuel Cell kit also includes a digital MultiMate which measures currents and voltage, allowing you to learn exactly what a fuel cell is and how it functions. The experiments and demonstrations explain the physics upon which this future technology is based. Experiments 30 Experiments include: How to build a solar-powered car; Effects of direct and indirect radiation; Characteristics of a solar module; Electrolysis and its effect on water; Oxy-hydrogen test; How to construct and load a reversible fuel cell; Decomposition of water in the fuel cell; Qualitative and quantitative analysis of gas in a fuel cell; How efficient is electrolysis?; How light influences electrolysis; Solar electrolysis; Fuel cell-powered car. Add your own experiments! Kit contains: Complete reversible fuel cell (hydrocycle system) Wire Motor Chassis Axle Gas collector 4 Wheels Solar panel with support Syringe Tube Digital multimeter Test tube Protective goggles Labels Bag of small parts for fuel cell Bag of small electronic parts Comprehensive lab manual with 30 experiments and demonstrations (Additionally required: 1 quart of distilled water) The kit comes with a 96-page, full color manual and experiment guide. Recommended for ages 12 and older. Price: $129.95 with free shipping! here check out the link: Fuel Cell Car Experiment Kit http://www.physlink.com/estore/cart/FuelCellCarExp erimentKit.cfm
I could find no mention of that in their episode guide.
-- Boycott Shell
In World Solar Congress 2006 in Orlando Fuel Cell Store was selling hydrogen powered cars with a solar panel that can 'extract' hydrogen from pure H20. Here's the link to all models avaiable: http://www.fuelcellstore.com/cgi-bin/fuelweb/view= NavPage/cat=14
C2
I was at toys-r-us about a month ago, and I saw a Hydrogen powered "UFO" for sale for $29.99, big deal.
Self proclaimed wannabe geek. You know how it is. Most of us who read this stuff probably fit in that category.
From The Myth of the Hydrogen Economy: All free hydrogen generated today is derived from natural gas. So right off the bat we have not managed to escape our dependency on nonrenewable hydrocarbons. This feedstock is steam-treated to strip the hydrogen from the methane molecules. And the steam is produced by boiling water with natural gas. Overall, there is about a 60% energy loss in this process. And, as it is dependent on the availability of natural gas, the price of hydrogen generated in this method will always be a multiple of the price of natural gas.
Ah, but there is an inexhaustible supply of water from which we could derive our hydrogen. However, splitting hydrogen from water requires an even higher energy investment per unit of water (286kJ per mole). All processes of splitting water molecules, including foremost electrolysis and thermal decomposition, require major energy investments, rendering them unprofitable.
Since this has turned into a discussion about fuels... Romanian farmers have discovered that their tractors can run with sunflower oil. In Romania sunflower oil is cheaper than the diesel fuel for the tractors. Plus now in their villages it smells like donuts. I'm not making this up.
I still the electricity is the way to go. At least then, the process would be:
Fuel->Generator->Power Grid->Car
Instead of
Fuel->Generator->Power Grid->Hydrogen Refinery->Transport->Car
Seems to me the first one will be much more efficient, especially when Toshiba's new Lithium batteries are available (in 2008 I heard). As long as it only takes a few minute to "recharge" your car, I'm sure range won't matter so much.
What's the chance of it going Hindenburg on you(r kid)?
GAAH! MY PRINTER IS ON FIRE!!! PUT IT OUT! PUT IT OUT!
Interesting but Tenergy and Supreme just don't sound like brand names I'd bet my EV business on. Then again, all this could mean is that one or two Chinese companies are still making unlicensed NiMH batteries but are not selling enough to make it worth Cabasys to send lawyers after them. Yet.
I think that the results Cabasys has had on what the biggest battery makers is more telling of what's going on here than one example of a guy named Adam Duskes selling batteries from Canada. Good try though.
LoB
"Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
Sounds like the same response one would get if they brought up the old WMDs in Iraq issues. What I've found is that those who just pull out the "conspiracy theory" card tend to live their lives on more faith than fact.
Got something other than your 'belief' that there's nothing to this?
LoB
"Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
Because I'm 5' 9" and couldn't very well have said grew tall. :) Make no mistake, my children will have one or two to play with.
Got something other than your 'belief' that there's nothing to this?
Not really. But I do have forty years of experience with people telling me there's a global oil industry conspiracy to keep alternative power sources off the market. Maybe it's true and Bush/Cheney are the culmination of a half century skullduggery by Rockefeller's ghost, or maybe it's not. But the theory itself is boring and decrepit.
Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
same here but without facts, those theories are/were just that, theories. I did not just pretend they were all wrong, just theories without enough proof that they were valid. You probably don't believe Microsoft prevents OEMs from shipping Linux based product too. Consiracy theory is what I hear over and over. It's bull and I've heard product managers from companies like HP saying what really happens.
So, things changed for me in the 2000/2001 period when I started looking at converting a car to an EV but instead purchased a hybrid( Prius ). I researched the heck out of that before purchasing. Then I saw George Bush take office and within 6 months he terminated the US Federally supported Hybrid Program and created a hydrogen fuelcell program. After researching this and seeing how far out it really it looked like a ploy to keep hybrids out of Americans hands. Remember how he mocked Gore on Hybrids? I do. Anyways, he then started feeding tax money to the auto industry to tote his hydrogen line, it was pretty obvious that something was going on. And it had nothing to do with capitalism. I also heard how the early hybrids had D-cell batteries due to patent restrictions but the US Toyota Prius model didn't. Then the Toyota/Panasonic lawsuit and eventually word that future Prius's would still have prismatic NiMH battery packs due to some 'settlement' in the lawsuit. I tried to do some investigations into the patent and found Ovonics, GM, and the oil industry involved... Still a conspiracy theory?
Sorry but there are just too many facts pointing to the oil industry, US gov( under Bush ), and auto industry wanting to keep their gravy train running as long as they can and at any costs. It's not unlike how Microsoft will lose over $8 billion over 10 years on their embedded Windows( WinCE ) just to keep companies like Palm from growing up to threaten their cash cow, Windows. They are doing the same with their Xbox because they don't want the PlayStation to become the media center for the home. It threatens Windows. And Bush helped Microsoft out there also by having his AG force another handslapping settlement.
Regardless, calling everything a conspiracy theory because you don't agree with it is just cheap. And I'm getting sick of hearing this from the ignorant. I got the same shit from neophites in the 90's when Microsoft was buying off the press and competition protecting their monopoly. They did it to OS/2, they did it to JAVA, they did it to Netscape, and they are doing it to Linux.
But if you've had your head in the sand for 40+ years and still don't know how any of this works, sounds like holding up the "conspiracy theory" sign is just a 'spinal cord' reaction. And there ain't no learn'n gunna happen here.
LoB
"Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
You're right. Bush killed off the hybrids, and now they don't exist. How could I have been so stupid. This morning I saw that most of my neighbors had hybrids, but I must have been imagining it.
Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
Who the fuck said Bush killed off the hybrids? Gawd it's like talking with an 10 year old.
How many of those hybrids were American made? And let me see, the one American made hybrid on the market is an SUV and even its hybrid system is licensed from Toyota.
End of this waste of my time.
LoB
"Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
Great! Now all I have to do is transplant the fuel cell into something I can steer!
I'm beginning to wonder if alternative energy technology will ever become a breaktrough. The reason why, well most of the big players in this kind of industry are
- Oil companies
- Energy grid companies
- Car manufactors
- Goverments
Most of them have put lot's of money in the way how they are now, for example:
The grid energy companies wouldn't be happy if suddenly we all went to solar tech.
And how much Tax the goverments will loose if any one would start his own solar plant?
Besides lot's of times there are breaktrough anounced in alternative feul of solar technology.
However every time it's said that it's too expensive for mass production.
Then i think jeeee we live in 2006, and still cann't do masss production of this?????
i don't mean mass production of toy cars, i mean real use of solar tech or electric cars, or other kinds of alternative enery (including having nuclear H2 production plants).
I know you're out there. I can feel you now. I know that you're afraid. You're afraid of us. You're afraid of change.
Looks nice. However, it's interesting to point out that we've had this gadget already for about 1-2 years in the Czech Republic. We also have a competition in tuning these vehicles and making them as fast as possible. This seems to have a little more publicity lol.
Cash is King
I'm no game theorist, but I definitely don't believe that this is a pareto optimality or any one of Nash's game systems. In those, the rules are known by the participants (or assumed, anyway). I don't really believe that the average person at the pump knows the rules to this particular game.
I agree with your categorization. Those are definitely characteristics that need to be considered in whichever fuel system to use.
But I'd like to see more cash values assigned to those categories. Economic, Environmental (encompassing Local), Personal, and Global (in terms of opportunity cost) seem like they can easily be assigned a not-very-arbitrary dollar value. National security seems harder to put a dollar value to and is extremely subjective (as is evaluating any risk equation).
If that was the price that people payed at the pump - no matter what they were pumping - then capitalism would do what it does best - optimize dollar cost. The ideal technology would float to the surface.
So why not roll all those costs into the cost we pay at the pump? Sure it'll be very hard to stomach, but if you rolled it in gradually and made other alternatives available, the entire system would reach a livable equilibrium.
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