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How Google Manages Click Fraud

Finin writes "In February 2005, Google was sued by Lane's Gifts & Collectibles in a class-action lawsuit over click fraud. The company alleged that Google had been improperly billing for pay-per-click ads that were not viewed by legitimate potential customers. As part of a settlement earlier this year, Google agreed to have an independent expert examine their click fraud detection methods, policies, and procedures and make a determination of whether or not they were reasonable measures to protect advertisers. The report of the expert, NYU Information Systems Professor Alexander Tuzhilin (a Professor of Information Systems at NYU), is now available." Update 07/26/2006 at 12:52 GMT by SM: Fixed the link to Tuzhilin's report.

130 comments

  1. real link to report by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    this is the correct link, the other one is just legal blahblah:

    http://googleblog.blogspot.com/pdf/Tuzhilin_Report .pdf

    1. Re:real link to report by oriol · · Score: 1

      ... and the reports states that the fake click detection mechanism is reasonably handled by the google "CLick Quality Team".

    2. Re:real link to report by DeadSea · · Score: 4, Informative
      For anyone interested in reading the findings without having to wade through it all, then go to page 36 and start with section 9.3 where a little further on it also refers to account terminations and how this occurs, section 9.6 is the bit that I guess most may be interested in...you never know, you may then decide to read it all

      - OptiRex

  2. Statistics about click fraud shown to Adwords user by DeadSea · · Score: 5, Informative

    Google is (as of yesterday) now showing statistics about how many invalid clicks an adwords account has recieved. You can read all about it in the adwords blog

  3. Enron by MyLongNickName · · Score: 3, Interesting

    If ad-sense is its major source of money, and it keeps the underlying numbers pretty well buried, could we be looking at another Enron? Imagine it comes out that 90% of all clicks are fraudulent. How many advertizers leave? How badlu does the stock drop? This is one of the things that makes me nervous about Google as an investment. Remember, Enron was loved by Wall Street too. Enron did not produce anything physical either. Enron reported great numbers. Underlying numbers were hidden away.

    How is Google diferent that the big "E"?

    --
    See my journal for slashdot ID's by year. Mine created in 2005. http://slashdot.org/journal/289875/slashdot-ids-by-year
    1. Re:Enron by Whiney+Mac+Fanboy · · Score: 1

      Enron was loved by Wall Street too.

      Wall street hates google.

      How is Google diferent that the big "E"?

      Enron was deliberately fraudulent. Google (to our knowledge) is not.

      --
      There are shills on slashdot. Apparently, I'm one of them.
    2. Re:Enron by Zaphod2016 · · Score: 5, Funny

      How is Google diferent that the big "E"?

      Branding. For example, Google's famous motto is: "don't be evil". If memory serves, Enron's less-famous motto was: "Ken Lay needs a new boat".

    3. Re:Enron by GundamFan · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There is no way of knowing for sure but Google does produce things (like gmail and gcalender) and is not simply a black hole that money comes out of (how investment profesonals fall for that I will never know). I know that I trust a company that doesn't hinge there busness model on energy futures trading (what is that anyway?) more than one who's busness I understand (essentaly advertising).

      --
      I don't give a damn for a man that can only spell a word one way.
      Mark Twain
    4. Re:Enron by ubergenius · · Score: 2, Interesting

      While I agree with you in principle that Google is an uneasy investment (which is why, although I love everything Google, I have yet to invest in them), I must protest the comparison to Enron. While it is always possible that I am wrong, I get the distinct impression that Google is much more forthcoming and honest about their situation than Enron. When Enron tanked, it was because of a deliberate and illegal practice of doctoring their financial situation. I highly doubt Google is doing the same thing.

      Furthermore, with the debut of Google Payments, and its eventual integration throughout the web, and its current ability to easily sell videos (of which many media companies have already jumped on board, such as ABC, NBC, etc.) with Google Video, and the possible announcement of an Office competitor (with Google Spreadsheets being the starting point), I think they will slowly begin diversifying their revenue, which will make them a much more appealing investment opportunity in the future.

      --
      Student Manager - Take control of your education!
    5. Re:Enron by GigsVT · · Score: 1

      Energy futures trading is like selling an insurance policy. It's really no more risky than investing in say, Allstate or Geiko. Both involve trading instruments in future risk.

      I agree you shouldn't invest in something you don't understand. But I don't think there's an inherent flaw in investing in a company involved in futures trading.

      --
      I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
    6. Re:Enron by pimpimpim · · Score: 1
      Hmm, all replies thus far don't really appeal to me. 'I assume google is not doing bad stuff' doesn't sound like a decent fundament for fair and correct trading to me. What the Parent is trying to say, google can just make up the income from clicks themselves, or charge extra clicks to their costumers where they see appropriate. This is of course a mechanism beyond where any of us can get insight.

      I guess what do counts is that they earn a percentage of all click-throughs on websites, which means that by looking at the money streams going in and out of google, one could get a decent estimate of how much money they're making. If too many advertizers complain about too high costs for what they get (say google does allow fraudulent clicks), then they'll move to another ad service. Still it remains partly virtual.

      Probably most of these problems are solved (but ad revenues for many people diminished as well) when the system will be in place where and advertizement only pays off after a succesfull deal through the specific ad.

      --
      molmod.com - computing tips from a molecular modeling
    7. Re:Enron by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, in that regard, Enron was MORE honest than Google?

    8. Re:Enron by IamTheRealMike · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Google make pots of money because AdWords does result in a good return on investment relative to other forms of advertising.

      Consider this. Imagine a fictional company that spends $10,000/month with Google on advertising, and is completely happy with the service because it results in lots of leads and sales. So it is actually profitable to spend this money. There are many companies in exactly this situation. Does it matter if 90% of clicks are fraudulent (which is probably not going to happen unless you are being deliberately targetted by a competitor)? If you are still getting a great ROI then no it doesn't matter. The invalid clicks are just noise.

      Google does produce something valuable if not physical - it produces a ton of people viewing websites who then go onto buy things. Same as any form of advertising. Except the relevance of AdWords makes it more valuable than most.

    9. Re:Enron by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Simple answer: Google's business model is based on datamining.

    10. Re:Enron by andrewman327 · · Score: 0, Redundant

      Google isn't evil. I also doubt that most clicks are clickfraud. I do admit to clicking on a banner ad when I find a website that I really like, but only if it interests me on some level.

      --
      Information wants a fueled airplane waiting at the hangar and no one gets hurt.
    11. Re:Enron by mgblst · · Score: 1

      Energy future trading is about trying to figure out how much energy will cost in a week, month, year even longer, and trading on values of that. You try to predict whether energy will be cheaper or more expensive, by looking at a whole range of factors, including weather, wars, politics, etc...Of course, trading on those future values will actually change those future values, so this needs to be taken into consideration. Yes, it is a load of bollocks, to an even greater degree than the stock market, but by manipluting those values, you can make a lot of money (just like Enron).

      My personal belief, is that it is a complicated system, setup so the rich can make even more money, otherwise they might have to do something smart with it.

    12. Re:Enron by jackbird · · Score: 2, Informative

      Ironically, Enron's motto was actually "ask why."

    13. Re:Enron by mgblst · · Score: 1

      Damn! I was hoping since you were talking about vidoes and office competitors in the same line, that you were suggesting the Google would come out with its own version of the BBCs The Office.

      Serg: "What is the single most important thing for a company? Is it the building? Is it the stock? Is it the turnover? It's the engineers, investment in engineers. My proudest moment here wasn't when I increased profits by 1000%, or cut expenditure without losing a single member of staff. No. It was a young Greek guy, first job in the country, hardly spoke a word of English, but he came to me and he went, 'Mr. Brent, will you be the Godfather to my child?', Didn't happen in the end. We had to let him go, he was rubbish. He was rubbish"

    14. Re:Enron by tehcyder · · Score: 1
      a black hole that money comes out of
      As opposed to Advertising which is a black hole that money pours into.
      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    15. Re:Enron by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If memory serves, Enron's less-famous motto was: "Ken Lay needs a new boat".

      Well, what else do you think he's going to use to get over the Styx? Say hello Cacus for me, Kenny Boy.

    16. Re:Enron by mysticgoat · · Score: 1

      If ad-sense is its major source of money, and it keeps the underlying numbers pretty well buried, could we be looking at another Enron?

      To my knowledge, Enron never produced anything of marketable value. It was essentially a mercantile operation that got increasingly further away from trading in actual goods to trading in promises of future deliveries. That has always been a bubbly area.

      OTOH, Google's underlying success is based on a kind of entrepreneural manufacture: they were the first to develop a comercially successful automated page-ranked search engine, and they have demonstrated an ability to keep churning out significant firsts of commercial value, like the Web 2.0 technology behind Google Maps and Google Earth, etc. Their business model is very similar to Microsoft of 10 years ago, or Borland, Word Perfect, or Lotus of 20 years ago. It has strong parallels with the early Ford Motor Company, the early McCormick Harvesting Machine Company, Fulton's steamboat company, etc.

      There are good reasons not to buy Google stock as a long term investment right now, but to my mind these reasons have to do with its current high visibility and the likelihood that its stock is temporarily inflated by speculators. It looks like a company that has strong fundamentals and very strong growth potential, so once the current hoo-hoo-harrah settles down, it will probably be as sound an investment as IBM, Ford Motor Company, or International Harvester.

      Remember, this is free investment "advice" from Slashdot, and it is worth every penny you've paid for it!

    17. Re:Enron by baadger · · Score: 1

      I'm gonna click me a new minivan :)

    18. Re:Enron by Hillgiant · · Score: 1

      Well, consider that their standard response was: "You are too stupid to understand. Of course it is perfectly legal. Shut up and give us your money."

      --
      -
    19. Re:Enron by lilfields · · Score: 1

      For starters, Google as an investment isn't exactly loved by Wall Street it's P/E ratio of 57.09 is despised, especially in the slowing U.S. economy. When it comes to click fraud, I would say from personal experience that they [Google] are very strict in their policies. If you want to see click fraud at it's highest with little policy enforement look no further than Yahoo!s Publisher program...here is an example of click promotion with Yahoo!'s program.

    20. Re:Enron by stevenmusumeche · · Score: 1

      Yes it matters, because if 90% of the clicks are fraud, then you are spending 90% too much money on advertising. Just because a company is profitable using AdWords doesn't mean that they couldn't be more profitable if the click fraud was removed. Also, the cost of PPC advertising is going up. So while you may be profitable now, in a year, you won't be unless the click fraud can be removed.

    21. Re:Enron by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Friends that have websites running ads report that they believe 80% of the clicks on the ads displayed on their sites are fraudulant and the other 20% are accidental clicks. I don't know weahter to believe them or not, but I do not believe the 10% that Google reports is correct either.

    22. Re:Enron by nelsonal · · Score: 1

      Generally no one makes money just betting on things (a few very well informed individuals make a nice living at it). A large company to make money they have to be able to something bigger than that. Enron's trading got it's start by taking a spread between producers and consumers who both wanted to be able to lock in prices to facilitate planning (they also owned pipelines which transfered physical gas around the country). Where they got into trouble was in internaitonal deals (that were poorly structured due to the compensation schemes in place for the project managers) and toward the end the mark to model accounting they were using combined with a minor league fraud by the CFO and financial staff (that was the straw that broke the camel's back).

      --
      Degaussing scares the bad magnetism out of the monitor and fills it with good karma.
    23. Re:Enron by unPlugged-2.0 · · Score: 1

      Actually,

      I believe the correct and revised motto was

      "Ask Why .... A**hole"

      This was after Skillings lost it in an investor call where an analyst questioned his earnings and called him that.

      It became the unofficial slogan of the company after that.

      Ironically enough,

      This slogan also fits quite nicely for Slashdot.

    24. Re:Enron by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      [blockquote]Enron was deliberately fraudulent. Google (to our knowledge) is not.[/blockquote]
      I don't know, it depends on what you mean exactly by "deliberately fraudulent." I think you might be interested to read some of the information over at Google-Watch. Some of Google's policies have felt pretty deliberately fraudulent to me.

    25. Re:Enron by saskboy · · Score: 1

      Speaking of things that don't produce anything, Slashdot has a long tradition of doing that. Why aren't they more popular on the stock market ;-)

      Advertising is such a scam when everything else is boiled away.

      --
      Saskboy's blog is good. 9 out of 10 dentists agree.
    26. Re:Enron by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is a good point but lets follow this example to examine sources where your thinking might fail. If I am an advertiser and pay $10,000/yr for AdWords and magically somehow, I can be sure that this has resulted in an increase of $15,000 in net income, then I could say advertisting resulted in a net gain of $5,000/yr. This is a good thing.

      Now, lets say that in that last example, 90% of the clicks I paid for were invalid. Lets say google realized this and being the good people they are, decided to add some amazing filters that got rid of every single one of those. To compensate for lost revenue, they simply charge 10x as much for each click. We still have the same numbers in the end, $10,000/yr in AdWords expense and $15,000/yr in net gain -> $5,000 profit.

      Up until this point, I have only showed that the poster I am responding to is correct. However, now lets consider the fact that advertisers are in direct competition with eachother. A competitor can launch a bot that will use up all of your company's clicks and your ad wont be displayed anymore until the next day, however, you will be charged for all the clicks you apparently got. Using the first hypothetical set of filters (whose use resulted in 90% invalid clicks that were not identified as such) your competitor, who is using this bot, has an edge over you. He can bid much lower on his ads knowing that his bot will eat up all of your higher bidding ads and his will be displayed anyways. Using the second set of hypothetical filters, your competitor would be in an even playing field with you. His bot would be useless since all of it's activity is caught by the filters. You are now paying 10x more per click, however, you are only being billed for 1/10th the number of clicks you would be if the filters were not present. You still end up with the same profits from advertising, but now, without losing an edge on advertising expenses to your fradulent competitor

    27. Re:Enron by The+New+Stan+Price · · Score: 0

      1. Imagine that there exists one major street that almost everyone drives down.
      2. Imagine that this street has a limited number of billboards for advertisements.
      3. Imagine that Google controls all of these billboards on this most major street.
      4. Imagine that this is why businesses throw money at Google.
      5. Imagine that many small businesses can only afford a very small sign on this road and that their signs are often hidden in the trees.

      Now imagine that Google is charging each business by how many cars pass by their sign. See the problem?

      People should fear Google as much or more than they do Microsoft, but they are blinded by the delilah.

    28. Re:Enron by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 1

      The company that bought Slashdot was popular on the stock market for a short little bit of time.

      VA Whatever-they're-hyping-now even created a few temporary Open Source millionaires.

    29. Re:Enron by Temporal · · Score: 1
      Yes it matters, because if 90% of the clicks are fraud, then you are spending 90% too much money on advertising.

      Wrong. Google sells ads by auction. So, the price is determined by what people are willing to pay for it. If 90% of clicks turned out to be fraudulent and were filtered out, then people would just be paying 10 times as much for the remaining 10%.

      The real problem is when click fraud is targetted at individuals, who end up getting 100% screwed.

      (Also, if the ads are being displayed on some site other than google.com, then those publishers are getting screwed since they should be paid 10x more per click.)

    30. Re:Enron by lonecrow · · Score: 1

      Well lets assume your an advertiser. You get a bill from Google saying you received x clicks and you owe y dollars. Your only going to continue your adWords account after you check your logs and your order book and see if those clicks are converting to sales and making you money.

      adWords has probably been running long enough now that I doubt all the ad dollars are from new, and as yet disillusioned, advertisers. Many advertiser continue their accounts every month after month. I have seen posts by many who love their adWords accounts and swear by its success for them.

      So the number of invalid clicks must be small enough that people still get a good ROI. People would and do leave the program if it is not making money for them, regardless of the level of invalid clicks.

      In addition, since the ads are sold by a type of auction its a self-regulating system. The cost of the clicks is based on their value and/or their speculative value. What else do you need?

    31. Re:Enron by tqk · · Score: 1

      Google does produce something valuable if not physical - it produces a ton of people viewing websites who then go onto buy things .

      Really? Name one.

      I'm serious. Do you know anyone who's bought anything via a click through ad? I don't. Certainly, people do buy stuff via the web, but due to click through ads? Chyaa, right!

      These gullible advertisers are steaming along on the same false assumption that spammers are gulled into falling for; that people ("consumers") are stupid enough to be as gullible as they are. They vastly overestimate the gullibility, not to mention their potential to be manipulated from afar, of their target market. Add to that the entire house of cards is based on the same atrocious statistics that sells spam (that some vanishingly small fraction of hits actually pays for the rest of the effort), and you've a lot of gullible dreamers who've no better way to spend marketing dollars and are falling for the party line, since there's nothing else that makes such pie in the sky claims; advertising's the only game in town for the marketing gullible.

      I neither watch, nor listen to TV advertising, but I'm aware others do. I'm not sure that's even remotely true about the big bad webternet.

      Google, and advertising in general, just haven't yet caught up to the dot com meltdown (they haven't had to, due to the nature of their customers) that the rest of us have long ago put behind us. It's amazing that an entire industry can be so slow on the uptake, but hey, that's marketing. Ignore Reality R Us! That sort of thing is what they do best. It's also about all they do, if you think about it.

      --
      "Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit ..." -- Pink Floyd.
    32. Re:Enron by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Gentlemen:

      When it comes Truly validating Paid Clicks from any search engine, there are some critical points that you are missing and need to pay attention to.
      This form of advertising is in its infancy and as we progress to an industry standard of Validating this space please remember the following:

      1. Do you really think that it is in Google's Best Interest or in the Business plan to actively seek out invalid clicks or click fraud?

      2. Every other advertising form in the Media has a 3rd party Validator, Checking the data on behalf of the advertiser. Television has Nielsen, Radio has Arbitron, etc. Even Accounting has SOX. Presently, only the Search Engine is the final arbitrator of credits or refunds. The industry needs to progress to this model eventually to give PPC advertisers peace of mind.

      3. The search engine can only see click information up to the point where the ad is clicked- there are other attributes once the click goes into your sight (behavior wise) that the search engine cannot see but the Advertiser has data for. This gap needs to be reconciled by both parties.

      Another alternative if this is not reasonable is to continue to let the bank balance your checkbook without checking it yourself.

  4. There is no report by Saib0t · · Score: 3, Informative
    The PFG linked to in the summary does not contain the report of the expert.

    Rather it is the answer to the judge and mentions (2 or 3 times, shortly) the report of the expert. All the meat that is to be found in the PDF is that the report is conclusive that Google does all it can reasonably to combat click fraud.

    The PDF is interesting only if you're interested in legal stuff...

    My 0.02

    --

    One shall speak only if what one has to say is more beautiful than silence
  5. There is a report... That was the wrong pdf by technoextreme · · Score: 1, Redundant

    http://googleblog.blogspot.com/pdf/Tuzhilin_Report .pdf This actually has a lot more meat and information since this is the actual report.

    --
    Ooo man the floppy drive is broken. No wait. The computer is just upside down.
  6. Link Fraud by digitaldc · · Score: 3, Informative

    If you don't have time to read the full 47 page report, Search Engine Watch has summarized some of the most interesting findings.

    404 - File Not Found

    --
    He who knows best knows how little he knows. - Thomas Jefferson
    1. Re:Link Fraud by blcamp · · Score: 1


      No, it's there. Try the same link again.

      --
      The problem with socialism is that they always run out of other people's money. - Margaret Thatcher
    2. Re:Link Fraud by houghi · · Score: 1
      If you don't have time to read the full 47 page report, Search Engine Watch has summarized some of the most interesting findings.

      404 - File Not Found


      Well, that is the sumarisation of how they manage linkfraud.
      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    3. Re:Link Fraud by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dont you mean..

      404 - Click Not Found ?

  7. Fire and Brimstone by mhazen · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    For a company that has a guiding creed of "Don't do evil", I wonder why I keep smelling traces of sulphur when their name comes up. Not all evil involves point-blank fraud, or requires a malicious nature.

    --
    Rock is dead. Long live scissors and paper!
  8. From the objections_response by mustafap · · Score: 5, Funny

    Nice quote:

    "The California attorneys take the position that the damages are 200 times $90 million, or 18 billion, which is more revenuse than google has received in its entire existance"

    You just have to hand it to lawyers, they'll try anything.

    --
    Open Source Drum Kit, LPLC deve board - mjhdesigns.com
    1. Re:From the objections_response by Aladrin · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Damages to a third party CAN be more than the company makes.

      The number itself might be unreasonable, but not the fact that the damages are more than the income.

      --
      "If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you." - DM
    2. Re:From the objections_response by mustafap · · Score: 1

      >Damages to a third party CAN be more than the company makes.

      Would you care to explain your reasoning *in this case* though?

      --
      Open Source Drum Kit, LPLC deve board - mjhdesigns.com
    3. Re:From the objections_response by Aladrin · · Score: 1

      'Damages' in lawsuits are always a made-up number based on BS projections. I fail to see why this case should suddenly be realistic when no other case is.

      --
      "If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you." - DM
    4. Re:From the objections_response by mjh · · Score: 2, Insightful
      The number itself might be unreasonable, but not the fact that the damages are more than the income.

      Really? Aren't the damages in this particular case supposed to be fees that advertisers paid to Google that they shouldn't have paid? If that's true, how can the plaintiff attorneys allege that the damages for click fraud exceed the total revenue that Google has taken in during it's entire lifetime?

      NOTE: I'm not saying your wrong. I just don't understand. Can you clarify?

      --
      Key to financial independence: Spend less than you earn. Save and invest the difference. Do it for a long time.
    5. Re:From the objections_response by rm999 · · Score: 1

      This is true - if a company spends 50 cents for each dollar that comes in, it is charging its customers double its income, and therefore can be sued for double its income.

      But in google's case it is all almost pure profit. They *maybe* spend 10 cents for each dollar.

    6. Re:From the objections_response by The-Bus · · Score: 3, Informative

      Let's say your advertising budget is $100. In our example, each $1 you spent on advertising (historically) returns you $20 in sales and $5 in profits. You spent $20 of your budget on Google Adwords, 25% of which went to click fraud. So that's not only $10 wasted, but $200 less in sales and $50 less in profit that you could've had if there was no fraud.

      That's the basic logic, I believe.

      --

      Small potatoes make the steak look bigger.

    7. Re:From the objections_response by sheldon · · Score: 1

      They may be saying that had the advertiser known that this mechanism was worthless sooner, they would have advertised elsewhere which would have brought in additional sales.

      so they're seeking damages on lost sales opportunity, which may very well be much more than advertising costs.

    8. Re:From the objections_response by AutopsyReport · · Score: 1

      Really? Aren't the damages in this particular case supposed to be fees that advertisers paid to Google that they shouldn't have paid?

      Not at all. You would start with the percentage of fees paid that were fraudulent as the base amount. Then you add in the opportunity cost of, a) lost revenue for the duration of the AdSense subscription; b) fees that could have been paid to a more accurate advertiser for the duration of the AdSense subscription; c) time spent trying to track down and discover that the majority of clicks were fraudulent, and; d) the list goes on!

      So it is much more than just what you paid for that turned out to be fraudulent. The opportunity cost of fraudulent advertising is just massive.

      --

      For he today that sheds his blood with me shall be my brother.

    9. Re:From the objections_response by Aladrin · · Score: 1

      Actually, 'damages' actually means money that they Plaintiff Company didn't earn that they feel they should have, had Google upheld their contract properly.

      I don't know any numbers, so I'm going to make them up.

      Company P (for Plaintiff) knows that if they get 1 billion hits from Google, they'll make 1 billion dollars. If they get 10,000 hits from Google, they'll make $10,000.

      Company P has been paying Google $500 per month and getting 1 billion hits per month for 12 months. They have every right to expect that to continue. Suddenly, they get only 10,000 hits per month because Google changed how their ad was listed, but they still have exactly the same contract. If this goes on for 6 months, Company P has lost almost 6 billion dollars that they would have earned if Google had not made the change.

      This is how the damages are calculated. There are other trickier ways to add to the damages, but they all stem from this, as far as I know. It actually has no bearing on the amount Google charged them.

      If you still think Google is 100% in the right on this, think of this way:

      You contract with Company G for 100 green widgets every month. These are really really great widgets, and you're making a killing on them. Company G realizes that it can run a sweat shop in Indonesia and make the widgets for 1/100th of the cost, but at 1/20th of the quality. You contract does not specify the quality of the widgets, only that they are green! It is perfectly legal for Company G to provide you with inferior widgets and because you are under contract, you cannot reject them! Suddenly, your whole business is bankrupt. Yes, shame on you for the lousy contract, but shame on Company G for changing their process without any input from their customers. (It won't make you feel any better when Company G goes bankrupt because you'll have been there first.)

      I've obviously greatly oversimplified the situation, and I don't actually believe Google has 'done evil' here, but this company definitely got the shaft, even though it was probably their own fault.

      --
      "If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you." - DM
    10. Re:From the objections_response by Adrian+Lopez · · Score: 1

      So that's not only $10 wasted, but $200 less in sales and $50 less in profit that you could've had if there was no fraud.

      This is assuming a 100% conversion rate, which is simply ridiculous.

      --
      "In prison you just have to shut your eyes and take it. Here you have to shut your eyes and give it."
    11. Re:From the objections_response by Adrian+Lopez · · Score: 1

      The opportunity cost of fraudulent advertising is just massive.

      In other words, lawyers are very good at getting milk out of rocks.

      --
      "In prison you just have to shut your eyes and take it. Here you have to shut your eyes and give it."
  9. What Microsoft should learn from Google... by jkrise · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Instead of throwing chairs or tantrums, lecturing about security etc...

    As part of a settlement earlier this year, Google agreed to have an independent expert examine their click fraud detection methods , policies, and procedures and make a determination of whether or not they were reasonable measures to protect advertisers. The report of the expert, NYU Information Systems Professor Alexander Tuzhilin, a Professor of Information Systems at NYU is now available....

    Microsoft ought to have some independent experts studying their source code, and reporting whether the products are actually designed propoerly / elegantly / optimally / for best performance / buggily. Simply dishing out Service Packs and Lip Service cannot work for very long.

    --
    If you keep throwing chairs, one day you'll break windows....
    1. Re:What Microsoft should learn from Google... by jasen666 · · Score: 1

      Yes, well the main difference here is that Google probably expects to be exonerated by this. They obviously think their fraud detection is going to be proven at least sufficient.
      Whereas MS (and all of us forced to use it's OS) knows that if any 3rd party expert devs looked at their code in any detail, they'd probably be horrified. I'm sure they already know that their code is spaghetti, why prove it to the world?

    2. Re:What Microsoft should learn from Google... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Simply dishing out Service Packs and Lip Service cannot work for very long.

      It's been working fine for over 20 years, and longer for old school like IBM.

    3. Re:What Microsoft should learn from Google... by lgw · · Score: 1

      OH, they have. When the EU insisted that MS provide some API to avoid huge penalties, the code was so bad that MS could not comply, and just presented the source and said "you try". The EU found this unacceptable (guess they couldn't make sense of it either) and intends to fine MS for non-compliance.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
  10. I'm sure our dedicated editors will correct it by Rogerborg · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Any second now. Aaaaaaany second now...

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  11. google future by uioreanu · · Score: 1

    there simply has to be a time in google's future when they will stop throwing money at flashy rounded-corners web2.x apps, and try squeasing money out of their plethora of experiments.

    In regards to gmail, besides leading the way with "new approach blahblah", and many innovations like coloured conversations and advanced search options, what is the real business model behind it? Don't tell me that the adsense box on the right gets any click.

    --
    cut this signatures madness. stop reading them now!
    1. Re:google future by mstone · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Why? Google already has a solid and profitable business model.

      The additional projects are just R&D with a very public face. They offer great brand exposure. They give Google's software team lots of experience dealing with the realities of building and maintaining software that thousands to millions of people use every day. They keep the company from developing tunnel vision. And in some cases they've put Microsoft on the defensive, so it has to spend time and resources defending its own markets rather than trying to take over Google's market.

      Those are all solid and reasonable benefits for the company, even if none of the projects can ever be turned into a direct-revenue cash cow.

      And if one of those projects happens to hit the combination of factors that does allow it to turn into The Next Big Thing, the payoff from that one winner will more than cover the cost of all the other research along the way.

    2. Re:google future by uioreanu · · Score: 1

      your explanations sound good, and if it were just R&D that could mature into some unknown-yet business things are indeed great. If google were a treee, besides getting more experience, the engineers get more and more work into various areas; therefore the branches of this tree tend to consume more of its initial power. Now we are whitnessing the tree growth, which is admirable, but later on it'll be the laws of nature speaking. Then it's the entire tree that either collapses or stagnates; unless bad branches get chopped away.

      --
      cut this signatures madness. stop reading them now!
  12. Billboards by MichaelSmith · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Advertisers will pay for a billboard without any guarantee from the advertising company about how many people will drive past the sign, how many of those will read it, how many will take the information in and act on it. The client is assumed to be taking a risk in that regard.

    Over time people decide for themselves whether a particular type of advertising is working for them. If the business keeps coming in why should there be a need for this type of analysis?

    1. Re:Billboards by fensflyer · · Score: 1

      The difference between billboards and Google Adwords is that advertisers do not pay based on the number of people who *look* at the billboard, unlike Google ads where the charge (if I understand correctly) is based on the number of clicks an ad gets. It is much easier to fraudulently modify the value/cost of a Google Ad than a billboard.

    2. Re:Billboards by jalefkowit · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Advertisers will pay for a billboard without any guarantee from the advertising company about how many people will drive past the sign, how many of those will read it, how many will take the information in and act on it. The client is assumed to be taking a risk in that regard.

      But "outdoor advertising" firms make no representations that they can measure these things. You know what you're getting when you buy space on a billboard. AdWords is different because Google sells it with claims that they can track these things (indeed, they bill you based on the results of that tracking). If Google's click tracking is inaccurate, you aren't getting what you thought you were getting. That's the difference.

    3. Re:Billboards by mstone · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That objection can be solved if you add the concept of 'noise' to Google's reported numbers, and I'd say most people already do that.. at least to some degree.

      I don't think many people expect every adwords click to result in a sale for the advertiser. Instead, people just check to see whether there's a correlation between 'more adwords clicks' and 'more sales'. If 100 adwords clicks produce 30 additional sales, you can say that the adwords are 30% effective. Then it's up to you to decide whether those 30 additional sales are worth the cost of those 100 clicks. If so, you can write 70% of their adwords fee off as a cost of doing business. If not, you can close your adwords account, or lower the amount you're willing to pay per click.

      If Google was padding its numbers, people would see lower return rates from their adwords accounts. Those people would then be less willing to pay for the service. They wouldn't expand their accounts to cover other words.

      In other words, there's already a feedback mechanism that punishes Google for any loss of efficiency in its adwords program, and rewards Google for providing the best results it can.

    4. Re:Billboards by swb · · Score: 3, Informative

      But "outdoor advertising" firms make no representations that they can measure these things. You know what you're getting when you buy space on a billboard.

      I worked in advertising for over a decade and your statement is totally false. These days EVERY advertising medium being pitched to a client MUST contain all kinds of analytical data backing it up, and this includes billboards. Locations, lighting, traffic patterns, etc, etc.

      And I'm sure that some outdoor media companies have their own internal research demonstrating that some locations feature superior demographics (ie, this road is between the corporate HQs and the wealthy suburbs and gets seen by all the wealthy commuters).

    5. Re:Billboards by jalefkowit · · Score: 1

      I stand corrected -- I was dumb enough to presume that just because something can't really be measured, nobody would claim to be able to measure it ;-) I'd give you mod points if I had 'em...

    6. Re:Billboards by pacalis · · Score: 1

      This is such a goofball arguement. Yes, googles actions cause the rate of returns to advertisers to approach zero as the amount of clickfraud increases. That's NOT a disincentive - is mean's that google captures all the surplus rents when fraud goes up. Now introduce a delay between measurement an action and the winner of the adwords auctions actually lose as they overspend before they pull out.
      Now to this concept of noise - guess you've been reading your Claude Shannon? Again, you start off reasonable - advertisers will look at correlates, but they can only do this once they experiment, and there's a big winner's curse problem is that you have to spend money before you get click data. So google promises a bunch of clicks, and the advertisers will base an estimate of that in the early game. Yes, people that overpay will leave, but google gains again in this transaction.

    7. Re:Billboards by mianne · · Score: 1
      Yes, traffic really can be measured.

      Ever notice those black hoses you'll drive over occassionally on the road. It's keeping count and track of the time. Ergo, a full record of how many vehicles pass and at what time. These have existed at least some 35+ years, quite probably more, and are still used today.

      It shouldn't surprise you to know that the technology has improved since the advent of those devices. Such systems are mainly used at the government level to monitor traffic. But as in another recent thread such systems are rapidly becoming available to business and even consumer markets.

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    8. Re:Billboards by Lehk228 · · Score: 1

      1/3 of clicks result in sales your ads are ... in technical jargon known as "holy shit wtf bbq" effective

      --
      Snowden and Manning are heroes.
    9. Re:Billboards by mstone · · Score: 1

      Your model assumes an infinite supply of potential customers who have A) no prior information about the system, and B) no way to gain information about the system without paying Google first.

      Try adding 'communication between agents' to your model.

      If agents in the system have the capacity to communicate A) with each other, and B) with agents who haven't yet entered the system, the effect of information lag is greatly reduced. If a large number of agents within the system find each other saying, "I get better returns from a dead-trees mailing," they'll probably be willing to cut their losses and leave rather than waiting longer (and paying more) to gather more data. If an agent who hasn't entered the system sees that same conversation, Google will probably lose a potential customer without making any money first.

      WRT the winner's curse scenario you mentioned, agents who know something about game theory will shade their bids. That is the standard solution, after all. And the amount of remediation they choose will probably correlate to the amount of 'enh, not worth it' feedback they've gathered from agents previously in the system. We also have to consider the fact that an adwords auction isn't a winner-takes-all transaction. The highest bidder gets the top slot, the next highest gets the second slot, etc. This is additionally mollified by the fact that Google doesn't charge the high bidder their actual bid, they charge "next lowest bid plus one cent." Google actively minimizes the penalty for optimism -- which is fundamental to the winner's curse -- and rewards caution among the secondary bidders. To get a true winner's curse under adwords, you'd need unwarranted optimism among all the top 8 or so bidders who make it to the first search page.

      That's not to say there isn't information lag, or that there aren't agents coming into the system without any prior research. But there are limits to both, and those limits work against your 'no disincentive' argument and for my 'it'll cost Google in the long run' argument.

    10. Re:Billboards by tqk · · Score: 1

      Advertisers will pay for a billboard without any guarantee from the advertising company about how many people will drive past the sign, how many of those will read it, how many will take the information in and act on it. The client is assumed to be taking a risk in that regard.

      Over time people decide for themselves whether a particular type of advertising is working for them. If the business keeps coming in why should there be a need for this type of analysis?

      In the past, people have been convinced practices such as trepanning (drilling holes in peoples heads) were good practices. Most now believe this sort of thing pretty much just killed people instead of actually fixing any actual problem. Ditto burning witches and books.

      Should we just stand back and wait for the market to catch up, or should we step in and minimize the losses?

      --
      "Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit ..." -- Pink Floyd.
    11. Re:Billboards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are correct. Even back in the 1970's, certain information, including demographic data was available to advertisers. The demographic data might be as simple as knowing the rich side of town vs. the poor side of town. The local Porsche dealer won't rent a billboard on the poor side of town. With traffic counts available, one could determine the number of eyeballs that would pass a given billboard per day. In addition, given the obstructions around a billboard and average traffic speed, one could determine how long the billboard was visible to the people passing by. In many places, one could even get this information for rush hour, when traffic might be at a crawl, vs. other times when vehicles would zip on by.

      Crude by today's standards, but absolutely available and factored into the pricing of each billboard.

    12. Re:Billboards by pacalis · · Score: 1

      I appreciate your respectful and interesting response, but I think your initial arguments are dangerous. First I agree that when you add agent communication to the model it reduces the power of the experimentation/delay argument. I don't think this is sufficient to shift my argument given today's reality, though in the long run we end up in the same place, I explain how. Here's where I am coming from. Google is transforming the advertising business. It is tremendously difficult in the near term for any advertiser to learn from the system as the pace of change is too rapid. Lags are big and important. Where could timely communication be coming from? Are advertisers sharing pricing information prior to bidding with competing advertisers (except through Google's own estimation service which endogenizes clickfraud). Probably not - why would they do this? Are there comparable services to adwords that allow you to estimate the pricing of Google? Again, not really. Google advertisers are really relying heavily on experimentation within Google's system to price, and this is expensive when the fraud is built into the system. So here's what happens with experimentation. Not only do you have growth in robots going around running up the click-rates, but you also have in the short term increasing demand for this new advertising medium, in part from transformation in the ad world, but also due to the need for continuous short-run experimentation, making for a very complex dynamic pricing system that has in the long run all sorts of ways to tip. Despite the rhetoric of what people are trying to do, my sense is that the reality is that it is not a market where optimization is happening- people are just happy if they get a positive surplus. Your initial comments reflect this. My model doesn't need an infinite number of advertisers - I'm guessing you can probably get these effects with about 15 to 30 advertisers, but when you add demand from short term experimentation, you could get these effects with a few advertisers running experiments, driving up the potential for winner's curse. I ran a search yesterday for an obscure dishwasher part number and had all my slots filled. I'd expect a search for "Nike jacket" would have an obscene number of interested advertisers. In the long run everything dies, so you'll have no argument from me there.. My sense is that now, in the short term, demand growth is outstripping erosion of value from increases in click-fraud, meaning that there is no disincentive to google and that they can continue to get more for less for a while. This condition can persist in the medium-term if additional competition enters with similar business model and click-fraud rates, but can shift if google or another service will measure advertising in a way that is less susceptible to this type of fraud.

    13. Re:Billboards by mstone · · Score: 1

      I appreciate your respectful and interesting response,

      Thank you, in turn, for an equally polite and well-considered follow-up. You make some good points, and I think we have generally similar views of the situation, even if we approach the matter from different directions.

      It's true that the sheer volume of experimentation currently underway does undercut the effects of communication among agents. OTOH, I think I'm working with a much more coarse-grained model of communication than you are. You discussed the problems of getting accurate measurements of adwords performance in specific markets: that's very true, and has a lot of value in a more or less classical economic model that assumes agents are intelligent, rational, and want the most perfect information they can get. But that model works as an asymptotic forecast of agent behavior over the long term. It doesn't do so well with respect to the short term. The classic summary of that problem is that "according to all the best classical economic models, the stock market shouldn't even exist."

      I'm looking at short-term communication between agents which is usually inaccurate -- and frequently irrational -- but which does have a strong impact on the short-term behavior of agents in any given market. It's the stuff that drives pump-and-dump fraud schemes. The very fact that the words 'Google click-fraud' have made it to the mainstream media will make a lot of people leery of the adwords program, regardless of its actual performance for them in their specific market. Call it the counterbalance to the people you mentioned, who are just happy to see a positive surplus in traffic. My gut says that the people willing to try adwords on the hope that they'll see some kind of positive surplus are the same ones who'll decide not to bother if there's too much generic anti-Google zeitgeist in the air.

      And while you'll get no argument from me that Google can take advantage of the current inefficiencies of communication and lack of a reliable baseline from which to measure adwords performance over the short term, I think doing so would be a phenomenally stupid move on their part.. a tactical victory that leads to strategic loss, roughly like a low initial sale price tied to a very high TCO, on the purchasing end.

      In the long term, any reputation Google acquires for knowingly engaging in fraud, or even ignoring fraud that it reasonably could have spotted, will reduce the potential customer's perception of the utiilty of the adwords program. A reduction of perceived utility turns into a reduction in sale price over the long run, because price eventually does balance utility. Any profit Google skims from fraud over the short term will amortize out very badly over the long term. And in almost any business, the vast majority of the money is in the long term.

      The optimum cash strategy for Google would be to skim a certain amount of extra profit from fraud while they can, but to make sure that skimming is highly deniable, and to retire any skimmable fraud pattern that looks like it might become public knowledge before it blows up in Google's face. The only trouble is, that strategy takes more work than just trying to build the best product possible.

  13. click frauds from irc by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    a lot of the click frauds comes for the irc
    you can get things by clicking ads and search.

  14. Thinking about stuff by ajs318 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I'm writing a piece of ad-blocking software myself, and I was actually thinking of incorporating a few features. Specifically, the option of whether not to download the advert at all; to download the advert without displaying it; or to download the advert without displaying it and download the linked page without displaying it. Is this last option an example of "click fraud"?

    --
    Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
    1. Re:Thinking about stuff by jakarta-milwaukee · · Score: 1

      Probably. Besides, why would the user ever pick that last option?

      --
      google: verb - to search for information on the Internet.
    2. Re:Thinking about stuff by outlander78 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "Probably. Besides, why would the user ever pick that last option?" (The last option being to download the ad and the ad's linked page, without displaying either.

      If you really don't like ads, or especially a certain type (say, flash-based or pop-up-based ads), then the option to have the link "clicked" and cost the advertiser money without giving them any benefit might be appealing to the users of the ad-blocking software.

      Personally, I like text-based meaningful ads like the ones Google provides, but can't stand the intrusive pop-ups, and would like to see a means of discouraging their use. How can following a link to a legal site be illegal?

      --
      cheers,
      Andrew
    3. Re:Thinking about stuff by jakarta-milwaukee · · Score: 1

      Not sure, may be the intent counts. One could also ask 'If clicking on a link is legal, why is clicking on the same link 100 times is illegal?'.

      In my case, I have both Google text ads and a banner ad. The banner one, I actually don't pay for the clicks, only for the 'air time.' On the other hand, for my Google text ads, I pay for the clicks.

      I live in an asian country (guess which one :)), so it might be different somewhere else.

      --
      google: verb - to search for information on the Internet.
    4. Re:Thinking about stuff by jfruhlinger · · Score: 1

      Sorry to be nitpicky and jump into this discussion, but none of the behvior you're talking about re: clicks is illegal. It goes against the Google terms of service (which is why they try to stop it) and it means that Google misrepresents click-through rate to its customers if they can't account for it; the latter constitutes fraud.

      In other words, it's not illegal for you to build an ad-block that does what you describe. It's illegal for Google to refer to the pageloads that result as a legitimate click-throughs when they aren't. The fact that it's really, really hard for Google to tell the difference is why they bring the hammer down on any site that they even vaguely suspect of fraud.

      jf

    5. Re:Thinking about stuff by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because a site could wait until you've downloaded an ad before showing you the content you want. I've only seen a few sites do this but I'm suprised others haven't. There is an internet package package (antivirus+privacy protection+...) that some ISPs do (did?) provide which download ads AND follows the links but didn't display the ads. I assumed it was to make sure content is delivered even on sites which require ad views. It also could be because it would be easy for Yahoo! or someone display a message to all those ISP customers that "Your ISP is stealing by blocking ads". They could also stop working for those users, but they won't want to drive users away, just to make the ISP look bad. Since it's done with an ISP package, not an individual user, it is easy for Yahoo! to target the ISP.

    6. Re:Thinking about stuff by Mister+Whirly · · Score: 1

      "Is this last option an example of "click fraud"?"

      Only if you are writing the software for Google and it is used to generate revenue. It certainly isn't fraud when a user clicks on an ad and then decides not to buy. That is the risk of advertising...

      --
      "But this one goes to 11!"
    7. Re:Thinking about stuff by imunfair · · Score: 1

      Illegal and against the Terms of Service are two totally different things.

      Here's a more solid example if you're unclear:

      People can (And do) sell AOL screennames for quite a bit of money. It's against the terms of service and they'll kill your account if they catch you. It is not illegal though.

    8. Re:Thinking about stuff by Carnildo · · Score: 1
      How can following a link to a legal site be illegal?


      The law has this concept called "intent". It's not just what you do that matters, it's why you do it.
      --
      "They redundantly repeated themselves over and over again incessantly without end ad infinitum" -- ibid.
    9. Re:Thinking about stuff by Arguendo · · Score: 1

      It's in fact inaccurate to speak of any legal/illegal distinction. This is simply about breaching a contract, and breach of contract is not illegal. You can be sued on it for sure, but it's not illegal in the sense that it is prohibited by law. You just have to pay damages resulting from your breach. (And there are even legal scholars who argue that sometimes you *should* breach; it's called efficient breach.)

      In any case, the only way this could be construed as illegal is if it were actually fraud, which in California means that you have intentionally made an untrue representation which the other party believed, relied upon, and suffered damage as a result of. To nail you for that, someone would have to argue that your clicking (or downloading of) a link is a representation that you will see or read the result. And I don't think they would be successful with that argument. So go for it.

    10. Re:Thinking about stuff by jasonjacks0n · · Score: 1
      Probably. Besides, why would the user ever pick that last option?

      Because that's how many sites support themselves: they get paid a per-click fee by the advertisters. So think about an ad-hating but site-loving web user .. you want to avoid ads (especially popups, DHTML popovers, and flash), while still helping your favorite site pay its hosting bill. Which is exactly what that last option would provide.

      If I had a Firefox plugin, for instance, that would download and "click" the ads for me, maybe randomly on 1 of N page hits, so that the site got some cash without me seeing the ads, I'd use it..

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      This space intentionally left blank.
  15. i want my reparations by neersign · · Score: 1

    where is my money for being tricked into clicking on ads? I want $0.05 deposited into my account everytime I see a "Search for on EBAY!". Kramer, Jackie Chiles, and I will be in your office in the morning to sign the paperwork.

  16. enron had one good product by zogger · · Score: 1

    interestingly, enron came up with those huge commercial sized wind power generators. At the firesale, GE bought that division and those are some of the ones going in all over for commercial electrical generation.

    Here is what they have now

    http://www.gepower.com/businesses/ge_wind_energy/e n/index.htm

  17. Ah.. by ms1234 · · Score: 1

    So this is why I am asked to approve their new terms and conditions?

  18. Academic community by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It is interesting to see Google asked someone from the academic
    community to do this study.

    The most the study says is that the algorithms the Google
    uses are good to detect click fraud. It does not give any clue on
    how much fraud is not detected by the algorithms.

    1. Re:Academic community by $RANDOMLUSER · · Score: 1

      > It does not give any clue on how much fraud is not detected by the algorithms.
      Ummm... But... Oh, never mind.

      --
      No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism. - Winston Churchill
    2. Re:Academic community by bogado · · Score: 2, Interesting

      This is impossible, since fraudulent clicks can be in every aspect equal to true clicks. First there is no clear definition on what is a fraudulent click, google and the target site only see an ip, a user-agent among some other http fields and a timestamp of the time that several things were loaded and clicked.

      One can argue that with some statistics one can find a site that is using automated clicking by using a network of infected computers. This would show as a unusual amout of clicking, but if the bad guy knows statistic he can gradually climb his click rate, and a non-fraudulent site could have a surge of users into clicking an add when he appears in slashdot, digg, boing-boing or any other high-trafic site that links other sites.

      One can clearly separate some fraudulent clicks, if many users clicks the add in less then the time to read anything on the page for instance. Other possibility is when an ip clicks on thousands and thousands of adds in a few minutes, even if those adds are from diferent people.

      In short, it is always possible to catch some fraud in this model, but if the fraud is clever enought there is no way it will be caught. Remember that even users that are non-afiliated to the site that want to support it and click the add could acount to a click fraud, and this is somewhat similar to a user who happens to find an add interesting.

      --
      []'s Victor Bogado da Silva Lins

      ^[:wq

    3. Re:Academic community by Rob+Kaper · · Score: 1

      a non-fraudulent site could have a surge of users into clicking an add when he appears in slashdot, digg, boing-boing or any other high-trafic site that links other sites.

      If only Google had a database full of sites that link to each other..

  19. do not think much of click fraud detection system by dino_russ · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Just a comment on their detection process. As a publisher who was terminated (and appeal denied) I do not believe in their process. I have a very active dinosaur website (approaches 1 million hits per month in school year -- probably lots of kids/teachers). it went well for one year then without notice (must be their autormated removal process) I was terminated for me or someother person associated with me generating what they classified as invalid clicks. Well I can state clearly i did not generate one invalid click, and I am only person doing website. So some other process was generating invalid clicks in their checking process. I am not sure what, whether with lots of activity I was getting those repeat 2 clicks that they filter out as invalid? Was there some spider clicking these (a competitor as I have heard about). All I maintain as a publisher I was terminated for nothing I did but was unfaily accused of doing invalid things. Does not make me very favorable to Google and their monolithic, unfair giant system. And I am happy to tell any one who asks what I think of their crummy system!!! Russ Jacobson Illinois State Geological Survey Champaign, IL

  20. A good read actually - Googles Omnibus Response... by us7892 · · Score: 3, Informative

    The last link is actually very good, and an easy read. Surprising for a legal document. It is "Googles Omnibus Response to Objections". I suggest giving it a read (PDF) http://googleblog.blogspot.com/pdf/objections_resp onse.pdf

    It is basically a response to the objections of a grand total of 51 people in "the class". An incredibly small number of objections.

    From the document:
    "The assertion that Google has done nothing wrong was echoed by advertisers that opted out of the settlement."
    "Unlike Retailers, Pay per click advertisers can limit the money risked for each click and for each day...Businesses should treat pay-per-click advertising like any other advertising...If it's costing more to advertise than your resulting profit, STOP ADVERTISING."

    And, regarding the "click fraud detection", there is only a small portion of this document that mentions the review process by Dr. Tuzhilin. It does mention that the click fraud detection methods by Google were confirmed to be reasonable.

    And finally, it was interesting to see read the jabs taken at the lawyers who brought the class action lawsuit to begin with...and the copy-cat cases from California, obviously a bunch of ambulance chasers.

  21. Re:Statistics about click fraud shown to Adwords u by Jonah+Hex · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Now this seems like a damn stupid idea to me. Say I'm trying to discover methods to click fraud my competitors or perhaps come up with automated software to sell. I can now use a dummy account with Google using search terms no one would hit and test different methods of fraud while getting feedback on which methods trip their detection.

    Jonah HEX

  22. Re:Statistics about click fraud shown to Adwords u by funfail · · Score: 1

    While it's true that revealing too many information is an information security problem, they are in a position that most advertisers believe that Google AdWords has more invalid clicks than other competitors. They have to prove (or at least, show) something to keep customers.

  23. Re:do not think much of click fraud detection syst by perkr · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It sounds like you got a truly horrible treatment. An intersting question is whether the adword business model works at all given that fraudulent clicks can be generated for two opposite purposes and there does not seem to be a fair system to separate them: 1. Increasing website revenue, 2. Kill competitor - very efficient since there are few other advertising alternatives out there for small publishers.

  24. Re:Statistics about click fraud shown to Adwords u by Sparr0 · · Score: 1

    Simple solution... Delay the data by a random time. At one attempt per minute you could find 'working' fraud methods pretty easily, but if you had to wait 4 days between each attempt then it becomes infeasible.

  25. No faith that bots are not charged by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I see "Slurp" (Inktomi bot) in my weblogs hitting the google ad. Then I see clicks per
    day and I get charged. I have not seen in the report where it filters out something as
    stupid as a bot from another company. I do see no "googlebot" clicks in the weblogs,
    but other bots go right through.

  26. Google Screws p2pnet.net out of its Share by cyberscan · · Score: 3, Informative

    http://wwww.p2pnet.net/ is a website deicated to filesharing news. The owner of the website, Jon Newton, runs the website and barely breaks even. He subscibed to Google's adsense in order to generate some revenue. When a story about a filesharing lawsuit broke in the lamescream news, an article in p2pnet was referenced. This article generate a huge number of visits and therefore a much larger than usual number of adsense clicks. Rather than pay what was owed to Jon, Google accused Jon of click fraud and even showed information implying his guilt. Google continues to ignore Jon's request for information relating to this accusation and refuses to communicate with him to clear things up.

    You can read about it at http://www.p2pnet.net/story/9086 . This has happened not only to Jon Newton but also to many other small website owners. I am a Geek who used to love using Google, but now that Google has become big, it is doing what most other big companies do - screw the small guy and just walk away. Needless to say, I use alternative search engines instead.

    1. Re:Google Screws p2pnet.net out of its Share by Synic · · Score: 1

      Do tell, which search engines would those be? And do their results suck ass?

    2. Re:Google Screws p2pnet.net out of its Share by cyberscan · · Score: 1

      I sometimes use www.clusty.com and www.ask.com

      Yes, sometime their result do suck, but many times theyt also return pretty good results as well.
      I imagine that they will grow and improve as more revenue comes in. If and when they get big and start abusing their market power, then I will support another search engine company.

    3. Re:Google Screws p2pnet.net out of its Share by Onan · · Score: 0, Redundant
      I am a Geek who used to love using Google, but now that Google has become big, it is doing what most other big companies do - screw the small guy and just walk away.

      Well, this isn't exactly a case of Google maliciously screwing the small guy. In fact, this is Google needing to make a choice between two small guys: the ad-displaying site, and the advertisers. Even if Google was incorrect about whether or not this was fraud, this was still them going out of their way to not charge their advertisers for valueles clicks.

      If Google were just being blindly greedy, they would allow fraudulent clicks to pass freely, as they're just more clicks for which they can bill advertisers. But they instead chose to at least attempt to treat everyone fairly, even though it cost them money in the short term.

      I'm sorry that this site was denied this source of revenue, and it's unfortunate that the fraud-hunting system misfired in this way. But it's a bit deceptive to characterize that as malice or greed on Google's part.

    4. Re:Google Screws p2pnet.net out of its Share by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 1

      I always start now with momma.com. It's surprising how good it is at some categories compared to Google, because it isn't spammed yet by people looking for high page ranks.

    5. Re:Google Screws p2pnet.net out of its Share by Pearson · · Score: 1

      False positives are to be expected. The problem is that Google does not have any process in place to rectify such false positives. I've heard many stories just like this one, and have never heard of Google reinstating _anyone_. This is the attitude that people are objecting too.

      Google has gotten too big and too greedy to actually look at the special cases, and don't care that they throw the baby out with the bath water, because it's cheaper than addressing the errors.

      --
      I...I'm attacking the darkness!
  27. And the conclusion? by blorg · · Score: 2, Informative

    I conclude that Googles efforts to combat click fraud are reasonable.

    Maybe should have been in the summary. The document is also fascinating account of how they go about it however.

  28. Is this report for real? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I just started reading section 4, and ran across this:

    "Computing devises attached to the Internet"

    Spell check anyone?

    And this sentence is just hillarious:

    "Internet was developed long time ago."

  29. Re:Statistics about click fraud shown to Adwords u by Jonah+Hex · · Score: 1

    While that possibility did occur to me, there is also these issues:
    Giving the customer recent data, preferably not more than 48 hours old. Most people will expect near real time statistics from Google on this one.
    Using multiple accounts to test many methods, thus allowing many attacks to be checked while making any delay between attack/statistics less of an issue.

    Jonah HEX

  30. Re:Statistics about click fraud shown to Adwords u by Jonah+Hex · · Score: 1

    While I understand that the customers want info about invalid clicks, in this case I think they are shooting themselves in the foot. Security through secrecy has always been a hot topic, but in some cases it definitely has an advantage. Customers will not be pleased if click fraud increases as a result of this, and Google will possibly have to move faster and with more resources to shore up their fraud detection (not too bad for customers but could be bad for Google with the bad PR, etc).

    Jonah HEX

  31. Mr. Professor... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is an exceptionally poor writer.

  32. Headline redundant! by IceFoot · · Score: 1

    "...NYU Information Systems Professor Alexander Tuzhilin (a Professor of Information Systems at NYU)..."
    ----------
    Redundancy Police,
    Department of Redundancy Department

  33. I guess Google's new motto is... by pacalis · · Score: 1
    "Larry and Brin need California king size beds on their plane"


    From WSJ "Lawsuits Fly Over Google Founders' Big Private Plane"

    Mr. Jennings says Messrs. Brin and Page "had some strange requests," including hammocks hung from the ceiling of the plane. At one point he witnessed a dispute between them over whether Mr. Brin should have a "California king" size bed, he says. Mr. Jennings says Mr. Schmidt stepped in to resolve that by saying, "Sergey, you can have whatever bed you want in your room; Larry, you can have whatever kind of bed you want in your bedroom. Let's move on."

    http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB11522278853 6400097-i72SXBBTMX_EPvtfDIn9uNjtiss_20070707.html

  34. Re:do not think much of click fraud detection syst by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Same thing happened to me. 6 months with google and no problems. Then comes the email out of the blue telling me my account has been terminated for invalid clicks. My appeal was met with a form letter reply telling me that *I* was not trustworthy because of false clicking. I run a rolling newsblog that only had one google panel. I assured them that I had better things to do with my time than to click on their links. End result, I removed the google code from my site. Their appeal process SUCKS. They provide ZERO assistance to the site owner. And it's quite easy for ANYONE on the internet to maliciously impact a google adsense account on any site they desire.

  35. Buy 50 billboards, get 10 by pacalis · · Score: 1

    Latest post aside, even if advertisers don't get driver data etc... they still expect the ad to be on the billboard. Billboard companies charge by space with an adjustment for the quality of the space. If they misrepresent the space, i.e. you buy 50 spaces and get 10 that is simple fraud.
    Google charging by clicks - if they misrepresent clicks I don't see how it is any different.

    1. Re:Buy 50 billboards, get 10 by Adrian+Lopez · · Score: 1

      But they are not misrepresenting the number of clicks. Not doing "enough" to distinguish between legitimate and illegitimate clicks is not at all the same thing as commiting fraud.

      It's easy to say that Google is not doing a good enough job identifying illegitimate clicks, but it's not very easy at all to come up with a robust system for accounting clicks.

      --
      "In prison you just have to shut your eyes and take it. Here you have to shut your eyes and give it."
    2. Re:Buy 50 billboards, get 10 by pacalis · · Score: 1

      They may well be misrepresenting the number of clicks - this has yet to be decided in our legal system. Of course, by your very language,if there are 'legitimate' and 'illigetimate' clicks then it seems likely that charging as though they are all 'legitamate' seems tricky. While accounting clicks might still be difficult, estimates should be relatively easy and advertisers could be reimbursed in adword product based on these estimates.

  36. Re:Statistics about click fraud shown to Adwords u by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    No. If you're committing click fraud on your own account, you already know how many clicks you're causing and how many are reported in your AdWords report (fraudulent clicks are already excluded), so the "fraudulent clicks" column doesn't give you any additional information.

  37. Speaking as someone who has worked on anti-fraud by Serveert · · Score: 1

    techniques... I know what they're doing for ad sense. They look for anomolies. You have a campaign c(1) running on sites s(1)...s(n). You are site s(j) where 1=j=n. if the ctr for c(1) across all sites s(1)...s(n) deviates by a certain amount compared to the ctr of c(1) on your site s(j), you are out of there. You can improve this by evaluating more campaigns per site. They also do this in reverse, or if they don't, they should. It's simple but effective. When you complicate it like this paper suggests it will get worse IMO. In fact I think that google makes it more complicated than what I have described hence their problem. The only way around this anti-fraud technique is to inflate impressions to keep CTR reasonable. But you can crack impression inflation since it requires a huge number of impressions thus more opportunities to detect fraud (wow, 10% of the impressions are from the same IP / cookied user).

    Looks like I gave out the secret sauce.

    --
    2 years and no mod points. Join reddit. Because openness is good.
  38. What about botnets? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    An entire study on clicks (fraudulent/invalid whatever) and no mention of botnets? A mildly sophisticated botnet can present clicks that are indistinguishable from real end users.

    Like the fellow in the bank who moved 1 penny from all credits into his account there is money to be made here. Just dont make too much money to get the attention of the authorities.

    - Couldnt-be-bothered-to-create-an-account

  39. So, a professor huh? He forgot to spellcheck. by Christoffer777 · · Score: 1

    Either that, or I need to catch up on my knowledge of the Internet.

    He claims that "Computing devises attached to the Internet can exchange data of various types..."

    Computing devises???

    I am sorry, I just had to comment on this. It is not every day that Computer Science professors misspell devices :)

  40. Re:do not think much of click fraud detection syst by Adrian+Lopez · · Score: 1

    I've heard about similar cases, and I think it sucks. That's why the lawsuit against Google bothers me so much. If their current fraud-detection process does not catch "enough" fraud, imagine how ridiculously strict it will have to become to accomplish such a difficult feat.

    I've wondered what would happen if I used Ad-words on my blog and a person in my family happened to click on an interesting ad. Given it's a low-volume blog I'm sure that Google would be able to correlate the IP addresses, so I imagine such a thing would result in the quick cancellation of my ad-words account. That's part of the reason I don't use ad-words on my blog.

    --
    "In prison you just have to shut your eyes and take it. Here you have to shut your eyes and give it."
  41. Re:do not think much of click fraud detection syst by TeeSee · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I too have experienced first hand the process of being terminated from google as a result of invalid page clicks. Any attempt to gain an explanation as to how the invalid clicks occured is met with standard form letters telling you that you can appeal but Google reserves the right to terminate anyone at anytime. It is really quite stupid as you have the option of appealing, but unless you know why you have been banned, as in where the clicks have occured, you have no hope of explaining any invalid clicks. Interesting to note that Google provides facility for you to control the ads that display on your site, but unless you are aloud to click on the ads it is very difficult to view the ads as clicking on them would no doubt cause invalid page clicks.

  42. The conclusion by professorfalcon · · Score: 1

    From the article: "Based on my evaluation, I conclude that Google's efforts to combat click fraud are reasonable."

  43. Click Validation will be required soon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Gentlemen:

    When it comes Truly validating Paid Clicks from any search engine, there are some critical points that you are missing and need to pay attention to.
    This form of advertising is in its infancy and as we progress to an industry standard of Validating this space please remember the following:

    1. Do you really think that it is in Google's Best Interest or in the Business plan to actively seek out invalid clicks or click fraud?

    2. Every other advertising form in the Media has a 3rd party Validator, Checking the data on behalf of the advertiser. Television has Nielsen, Radio has Arbitron, etc. Even Accounting has SOX. Presently, only the Search Engine is the final arbitrator of credits or refunds. The industry needs to progress to this model eventually to give PPC advertisers peace of mind.

    3. The search engine can only see click information up to the point where the ad is clicked- there are other attributes once the click goes into your sight (behavior wise) that the search engine cannot see but the Advertiser has data for. This gap needs to be reconciled by both parties.

    Another alternative if this is not reasonable is to continue to let the bank balance your checkbook without checking it yourself.