First Impressions of Sabayon Linux

chix4mat writes "Techgage takes a first look at the upcoming Gentoo-based distro 'Sabayon.' It's a feature-filled Live DVD that allows you to install within minutes. Users are treated to a Vista-esque KDE theme, with transparent windows The greatest feature of the distro is the hardware and software support. DVD movies work from the start in addition to audio, bluetooth, WiFi and even XGL."

Comments

Program Naming

[ronkronk]

Why do so many linux programmers insist on such crazy naming conventions. Sabayon? Changing a perfectly servicable and pragmagic GNOME Meeting to "Ekiga"?

I use linux both at home and at work, so I'm not some anti-linux zealot or something- I think it's a legitimate question to raise. On my mac laptop, I have a handy app for browsing mDNS networks called Rendezvous Browser (since mDNS was once called Rendezvous).
The name is simple and describes perfectly what the program does. On the other hand, 90% of the linux applications available have names that look like they were chosen by picking random letters and squishing them together.
I'm sure that the programmers think they've very clever by choosing a name that means something in some obscure language- or they just thing the name sounds cool- but that simple lack of meaningful names is detrimental. If I start up a GNOME session and want to use network meeting functionality, how is there any possible way that I could guess that "Ekiga" is the application I'm looking for?

Re:Program Naming

[Foofoobar]

My wife has an aversion to Ubuntu because of the name. I tell her it's awesome but she just seems to be hung up on the name. I must admit that the name didn't sell me on the product either but now that I use it, I swear by it.

Linux could use a good marketing team; grassroots can do alot but good marketing is what pushes it over the edge into the mainstream.

Re:Program Naming

[giorgiofr]

if j00 r n07 1337 3nuff 2 ph1nd 17, j00 |\/|us7 n07 b3 4||0w3d n34r |1nuX

Re:Program Naming

[Anonymous Coward]

names that look like they were chosen by picking random letters and squishing them together.

Everyone has that problem with english language. They have more acronyms than regular words.

Re:Program Naming

[6OOOOO]

I generally agree with you. On the other hand, though, consider the importance of brand recognition, and distinction from the competition. Imagine if Firefox had been named "Web Browser," or "Web Site Viewer." It might have worked out, but I'm guessing it would have been tough.

There is definitely something to be said for a unique, even quirky identifier--the software becomes a particular thing to be desired and discussed, instead of a tool to be taken for granted.

Re:Program Naming

[TheViewFromTheGround]

Interesting. I think Ubuntu is an okay name, myself. It means something and reflects the software's lineage. All the Kubuntu/Xubuntu/Edubuntu names grate me to no end -- meaningless and cutesy. Why not just call it Ubuntu: Education Edition? The flip side is that Apple, being brilliant, called their operating system "OS TEN", just like they call their mail program Mail and so forth. The Ubuntu project does get this, to some degree, with entries like "Web (Firefox)" in their menus.

Re:Program Naming

[ToxikFetus]

Product Naming Conventions by Platform

Apple: Prepend 'i' to the product name: iMac, iPod, iBall, etc.
Windows: Add "Visual," "Explorer," or "Tycoon" to the product name.
Linux: Prepend 'g', 'k', or 'x' to the product name, depending on whether the product is GNOME-centric, KDE-centric, or non-denominational. Alternately, bang head on keyboard.

Re:Program Naming

[digidave]

Web Site Viewer is too generic, but Webfox or Fireweb would have been good. Thundermail definitely sounds like a mail client. It's quite easy to take many names from OSS and change them slightly to have broader appeal.

Konqueror can be Web Konqueror. GIMP can be Gnu Photo. Sunbird can be Sun Calendar.

MySQL, RadRails and OpenOffice are great names.

Re:Program Naming

[$RANDOMLUSER]

There are only 17,576 TLAs, but there are 456,976 FLAs (which, oddly enough, is a TLA).

Re:Program Naming

[6OOOOO]

Fireweb kind of stinks, but otherwise yeah, that is an insightful comment.

Another possible compromise would just be to make shortcut/launcher menu naming more descriptive: the program itself can be called Firefox or Ekiga if it wants to, so long as its shortcuts indicate its use (and in KDE--probably GNOME as well--that functionality is built in, so that descriptions and program names are separate, and both displayed on menus). That solution doesn't help when you're trying to tell your grandma to download the program ("I don't want a Fire Fox on my computer, child!"), though, and so your point is a good one.

Re:Program Naming

[Deliveranc3]

To the I want it to just work folks.

These people are devoting their time to making this software, they aren't getting paid.

I'm sure many of you think they're just crazy hippies but the fact is they have motivations, often political/spiritual for why they want people to have access to this software.

This will affect how the software is developed, it's unavoidable, and you would do well to spend a little time actually investigating the mindset of the FOSS community.

These people are giving you certain abilities you didn't have before, that's why you use their software. And they're hoping you won't use those abilities to say steal someone's identity or take away people's jobs... perhaps they are being naive.

Distro's like Ubuntu have interesting names because they hope you'll check wikipedia before complaining and actually take a look at the philosophy underlying the software they are giving you for free.

Re:Program Naming

[greginnj]

You said it, bro!

Why, on my machine, when I want to create a presentation, I have to use something called 'PowerPoint'. For weeks I didn't touch it because I thought it was some sort of weird ACPI tool, and I was shutting down and rebooting enough that I figured I didn't need it.

It turns out I also have an email app called "Outlook" which I thought was a weather forecaster. It hasn't worked well; maybe I should switch -- I see there's a faster version called 'Outlook Express'.

The file system app is called 'Explorer' which is confusingly named the same thing as the web browser.

There's also this thing called "Access" which, as near as I can guess, is a kind of server that's supposed to give everybody on the internet 'access' to my data.

Oh, and I have to click on a button labeled 'Start' to shut down ...

Re:Program Naming

[Almahtar]

Ubuntu is the perfect name for the product. Its meaning is a philosophical standard, and one that the project aims to develop as its defining characteristic. Just because the product doesn't have an english name doesn't make its name inferior. English won't be the primary language in most countries in which Ubuntu will be used, so why should this African distrobution adopt an english name?

Re:Program Naming

[widmerpool]

"Why do so many linux programmers insist on such crazy naming conventions. Sabayon? Changing a perfectly servicable and pragmagic GNOME Meeting to 'Ekiga'?"

GNOME Meeting may be a perfectly "servicable" and "pragmagic" name to you, but suppose your native tongue were, ah... Finnish?

Re:Program Naming

[6OOOOO]

My guess would be that it stinks to work on something that nobody uses.

Re:Program Naming

[eosp]

Kubuntu at least means something also. Wikipedia says it means "towards humanity" or something like that.

Re:Program Naming

[B11]

I'm sure that the programmers think they've very clever by choosing a name that means something in some obscure language- or they just thing the name sounds cool- but that simple lack of meaningful names is detrimental. If I start up a GNOME session and want to use network meeting functionality, how is there any possible way that I could guess that "Ekiga" is the application I'm looking for?

Nerds aren't marketers, and I for one am willing to sacrifice slick names for better apps.

Re:Program Naming

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

Why do so many linux programmers insist on such crazy naming conventions... On my mac laptop, I have a handy app for browsing mDNS networks called Rendezvous Browser (since mDNS was once called Rendezvous).

And the name of that service changed because they picked a name that meant something and, hence later discovered it had trademark issues. On of my favorite toys is called "SubEthaEdit" but used to be called "hydra." It uses Rendezvous to allow many people to share a text editor with multiple insertion points. The name was recognizable and did a good job of describing the "many heads." Even that had to be changed because a water and sewer management program already had a trademark, even though it was just a misspelling of "hydro."

In many cases it is simply safer to pick a name in a foreign language that means something to some people, but is less likely to either conflict with existing trademarks or be so obvious that it seems like a generic description rather than a specific program. The people working on these projects are programmers, not IP lawyers. They want to code, not mess with trying to sort out the legal issues around conflicting trademarks.

Re:Program Naming

[Red Flayer]

On the other hand, 90% of the linux applications available have names that look like they were chosen by picking random letters and squishing them together.

Well, sabayon is a real word, from the French (not exactly 'some obscure language') -- it's a sauce made with egg yolks, sugar, and wine. It's very nice on fresh fruit, or desserts that have a little tartness to them. Isn't it nicer to have a product named after a nice sauce than to have one that comes from "alphabet soup"?

As to Ekiga, there might be some association in Japanese -- or maybe not.

Either way, what's the problem with naming a product something distinctive? You know, something that people will remember? Or would you rather have all things named descriptively? Why do we buy a Honda Accord or Nissan Altima, instead of a "[Honda|Nissan] Mid-class Sedan"? Doesn't that just confuse the issue when car manufacturers refuse to name their products according to what they do? I mean, it's a real pain in the butt for me to recall that a Dodge Ram is a Dodge Large Pickup Truck.

Re:Program Naming

[ewl1217]

Konqueror can be Web Konqueror. GIMP can be Gnu Photo. Sunbird can be Sun Calendar.

No offense, but those are awful examples. Konqueror isn't just a web browser; it's a file manager and document viewer too. GIMP actually stands for GNU Image Manipulation Program, so doesn't that fit? Sun Calendar just doesn't sound as good as Sunbird, not to mention all the trademark issues there.

Re:Program Naming

[WilliamSChips]

In GNOME, at least the last time I used GNOME(which admittedly was back in the 2.10 days), it said "Firefox Web Browser".

Re:Program Naming

[misleb]

I'm sure that the programmers think they've very clever by choosing a name that means something in some obscure language- or they just thing the name sounds cool-

Or they are just being whimsical can don't really care if the the name is business friendly. Most are just programming for fun. I wholeheartedly support the practice of "strange" naming. If Linux, or more generally, FOSS ever loses its whimsical and 'fun' nature, it'll be dead. Programmers get enough marketting pressure and other business related distractions at work. They don't need to come home to their hobby project and get the same pressure to sell themselves to users.

but that simple lack of meaningful names is detrimental.

Detrimental to whom, exactly? If I am developing something for fum, what do I care if a few people who merely object to naming don't use my software?

If I start up a GNOME session and want to use network meeting functionality, how is there any possible way that I could guess that "Ekiga" is the application I'm looking for?

The same way you know that your friend "Joe" is the guy with the dark hair, funny nose, and a good sense of humor. Have you ever asked your friend Joe to change his name to something a little more descriptive?

-matthew

Re:Program Naming

[DarkCoffee]

There's nothing wrong with distinct, unique names for products provided you have the advert. $$$ to burn the association between the name and the product into consumers minds.

If you don't have the money and advertising then you need to be less 'creative' in the naming department such that the name itself describes the product.

Re:Program Naming

[Red Flayer]

If the product is good enough, it won't be a problem.

There have been thousands of products over the years that succeeded without a descriptive name and without an advertising budget. I would expect this to be even more possible considering the nature of the Linux community and the ease of communication.

Also, one other thought -- I know several CxOs who think that a descriptive name confers 'generic' (and therefore inferior) status on a product. It implies that you're copying a named product. Would you like Cheerios or Toasted Oat Rings for breakfast?

Re:Program Naming

[Reverend528]

Why do so many linux programmers insist on such crazy naming conventions. Sabayon?

Why is it called "Linux", when it could just as easily be refered to as "Operating System Kernel"?

Re:Program Naming

[Mr. Gus]

Why do so many linux programmers insist on such crazy naming conventions. Sabayon?
[...]
The name is simple and describes perfectly what the program does. On the other hand, 90% of the linux applications
[...]
I'm sure that the programmers think they've very clever by choosing a name that means something in some obscure language- or they just thing the name sounds cool- but that simple lack of meaningful names is detrimental.

Whatever you think about various program names is fine, but dude... Sabayon is a linux distro.

Linux distro's are usually referred to as [something] Linux. Redhat Linux. Slackware Linux. SuSE Linux. It's an arbitrary name attached to the word "Linux". The arbitrary name is used to distinguish one from the other. The "Linux" part is the functional part of the name. Give it a functional name, like say "OS"... OS Linux. Possibly arrogent, but a bit vague and redundant either way. Qwerty Linux, I think people know what it is and does. Whether the name rolls of the tongue or not is a different issue.

Your rant is entirely about application names, and has nothing to do with the name of the distro or the distro itself. You segue from the distro name before you can explain how it's an example. You're pretending this distro is an example of an entirely unrelated issue for no apparent reason...

Re:Program Naming

[dhasenan]

Moreover, you can't trademark Web Browser or Web Site Viewer--they're descriptive.

GNOME Meeting can take its trademark from GNOME, but none of its own. If it splits and becomes dissociated from GNOME, then it needs its own name. Plus people like leaving their mark on a project, especially the name.

Re:Program Naming

[Anonymous Coward]

The only "servicable" or "pragmatic" gnome meeting that can take place is the one that decides to cease development on gnome and bury it as deep as possible. If only I had mod points, troll!

Re:Program Naming

[Anonymous Coward]

Matthew, I agree 100%... and that's why linux can't/won't ever go truely mainstream in the US. The difference between commercial software and foss is much like the difference between fine art and commercial art. Since foss is being developed for the love of coding, or higher ideals, etc., it lacks a certain "responsibility" as it were, that commercial software has... On the other hand commercial software rarely displays the kind of inspiration and innovation that makes foss such a joy for it's users.

Re:Program Naming

[Carlio]

People don't object to that name because it's foreign, they object because it's retarded and pretentious. If you called your distribution 'Humanity' or 'Care for others' or something equally warm and fuzzy, you'd be a joke. Calling it that in a foreign language doesn't make it any less annoying. Besides, it sounds like the name of a coffee; a trait the forum has been quick to adopt and make an in-joke.

Re:Program Naming

[Sal Zeta]

Uhmm.For the sake of curiosity, what do you do when you see a bottle of coke, then?

Re:Program Naming

[greginnj]

I don't use it myself, but I constantly marvel at the number of people who buy the stuff.

You wouldn't think so many people would be taking it home just to make steel in such small quantities.

Re:Program Naming

[Kethinov]

Then you'd be using the localized version, "GNOME Kokous"

Re:Program Naming

[Dot.Com.CEO]

Regarding Konqueror, it's actually a great name. Consider this:

(Netscape) Navigator
(Microsoft) Explorer
(KDE) Konqueror

Re:Program Naming

[martinultima]

Hell, the Swiss Army Knife is probably the Konqueror of portable blades, if you know what I mean – Konqueror has just about everything except a kitchen sink. (And not to mention it's probably the only browser that can actually embed another browser – just pull up its built-in terminal emulator and run Lynx :-)

Anyway, getting back on topic – I'm honestly not sure how much of an argument there is here. Generic names like "Internet Explorer" actually tend to cause more confusion in the end – they start associating the blue "E" with the entire Internet, which can get annoying after a while if you know the difference... don't know about GNOME, but I know what KDE likes to do is to provide a generic name/description as well as the program name, so for example, just a couple examples that my own menu lists:

Firefox (Web browser)
The GIMP (Image Editor) ...and so on and so forth. Which I think is probably the best way to do it, that way they know what the program is the first time they run it, but if they need help later – or just want to tell their friends, or whatever – they'll know the specific program they like/need help with/etc. and not just a generic name that could potentially turn up thousands of results...

Anyway, just my 2 cents.

Re:Program Naming

[turbidostato]

"Why is it called "Linux", when it could just as easily be refered to as "Operating System Kernel"?"

GNU/OperatingSystemKernel, you mean... /me ducks!

Re:Program Naming

[Foofoobar]

It's not that it's a foreign name, it's that American consumers dominate what becomes mainstream by having the most purchasing power. Which is why most companies who want major sales gear their products branding to an American test audience. It's not that it's better, it's just who the majority of their purchasers are.

Now obviously, no one is going to be BUYING Ubuntu (unless they release an Enterprise Edition) but bad marketing can ruin its adoption rate. I mean between 'The Megatron 9000' and 'Ubuntu' I know which one I want just from the name alone. One sounds like it needs a hug while the other sounds like it would rip your arms of and beat you to death if you even THOUGHT about running as ROOT.

Now as a clarification, I run Kubuntu and LOVE it. It's the most stable and user friendly distro I have ever had. I just think they could have thought of a better name.

Re:Program Naming

[Anonymous Coward]

Hi, I don't care if "prepend" is in the jargon file. It isn't a word. Use "prefix."

Re:Program Naming

[Almahtar]

That's true - Adoption rate in the US is a strategic factor in an OS's success. Not knowing what Ubuntu means (or the fact that, around here (the US), it sounds more like a coffee than an OS) isn't necessarily such a bad thing, though. I don't know about you but the first time I saw the name Ubuntu I thought 2 things:

1. What a singly unattractive name.
2. I wonder what it means.

So I looked up what it meant, and then thought two things:

1. I was wrong about that name.
2. I should give this a shot - this sounds like something I should be a part of.

... and I'm not alone in that. I know very few people who use Ubuntu that don't know what the name means, and don't consider themselves actively part of that cause. Mandr(ake | iva)? Red Hat? Fedora? Mepis? FreeBSD? (Lin | Free)spire? Can't say the same. So it might be that the question the name "Ubuntu" begs is more beneficial than the initial attractiveness of other distro names.

Re:Program Naming

[Lorkki]

I'm not sure about "regular" Gnome, but in Ubuntu I have at least Firefox Web Browser, GIMP Image Editor, Thunderbird (and Evolution) Mail, Ekiga Softphone, Pan Newsreader, Rhythmbox Music Player and even Anjuta IDE and Glade Interface Designer. So, seems like they (whoever they are) like to do it as well.

Re:Program Naming

[westlake]

Generic names like "Internet Explorer" actually tend to cause more confusion in the end - they start associating the blue "E" with the entire Internet, which can get annoying after a while if you know the difference.

I remember Delrina's CommSuite from 1995.

There is little in 2006 that you can't be done more simply from within the browser or through a browser extension.

Re:Program Naming

[WilliamSChips]

I had the same in RH/Fedora and Gentoo back when I was a Gnomer so it's universal.

Re:Program Naming

[Foofoobar]

Heh. Sounds like me. I did the same thing. But how far do you think the majority of the populace would go after that 'boy, what an unattractive name'. Most people who aren't drawn to something don't bother doing additional research. For instance, that ugly girl or guy in high school. The vast majority of people would not have taken the time to know them no matter HOW awesome they were due to initial appearances.

I had a friend who made it onto Jeopardy but when Alex Trebek saw the contestants and shook their hands he stopped at her. She was a library science major who had her head shaved except for a pink devils lock in the front. He held out his hand, paused and then retracted it before she could shake it, then looked at her and said 'You made it??'

True story. So even though I knew she was awesome, some people make snap decisions based on appearance. And sadly, this is the norm I guess.

So again, while I love Ubuntu, I still stress better branding and better marketing to be able to get Linux to break through the desdktop barrier.

Re:Program Naming

[Cootey]

Its all good and well to have a philosophy of naming etc and as you quite rightly state these guys are doing the grunt work for nothing. But the material they produce would "probably" be much more widely used if it had more descriptive naming. Given that this isnt the case in most times in any OS. But if Linux is to be more widely used and seen as the "ducks nutts" for easy operatorability (is that a word !) then it would make it much easier to find a app if they were more intiuatively named. If you dont have to spend time trolling your menu lists or the net to find an app for what you want to do, especially if its already loaded, then you have more time to invest in actually using the app itself. Granted that in KDE (I dont use GNOME - its an asthetics thing ! ) menu lists and final apps are usually placed under the right headings. However this isnt always the case and in this instances your left wondering what the hell the app is for. Mind you I still kick them up to find out what the hell it does do. But not everyone could be bothered or interested in doing this.

Re:Program Naming

[BlueStrat]

"Why do so many linux programmers insist on such crazy naming conventions. Sabayon?"

"Why is it called "Linux", when it could just as easily be refered to as "Operating System Kernel"?"

Hmm..OSK? Sounds like an operating system by Kellogs. Would a custom kernel then be called "Special K"?

Sorry, couldn't resist. :P

Cheers!

Strat

Re:Program Naming

[Deliveranc3]

The Linux community is hugely fractured because none of them is clearly better and none of them are ready for the desktop so this whole arguement is moot.

If the linux community had a distro that was ready for the mainstream that the linux crowd backed and couldn't get acceptance then we would have a problem, but joe sixpack will just call it what everyone calls linux.
Linux.

Re:Program Naming

[Silthanis]

Actually, Konqueror is probably the most common container for KitchenSync ...

What's Vapor^H^H^H^H^HVista got to do with it?

[toby]

First we had the absurd suggestion posted here that Apple is somehow playing "catch-up" to the as yet unreleased, reheated clunker -- when in fact, Vista if released won't sport more than a fraction of the capabilities of very-much-released OS X circa 2002.

Does every article now have to refer to Vista as if it is somehow visionary? Let us compare OS X 10.5 to Windows XP, more reasonably, since that is the slum in which somehow most computer users have allowed themselves to be incarcerated. Will Vista, if released, even manage to measure up to Xgl? Certainly not on comparable hardware.

As usual, far too little, far too late. On second thoughts, compare away!

Re:What's Vapor^H^H^H^H^HVista got to do with it?

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean all of the slowness, unreliability, and lack of QA that came standard with OSX?
I don't know what has your panties in a bunch, but it's not like OSX is the creme of any crop other than "doesn't suck as much as windows".

Re:What's Vapor^H^H^H^H^HVista got to do with it?

[daskinil]

I think XGL is great and will be much more powerful and take up far less rescources than Vista's Aero. But Considering XGL is in alpha, eXGL is not implemented yet, and no implementation to support direct 3d. XGL is nice to look at for doing basic desktop use, but overall is still inconvenient at best. Expecially if you want to play ANY game. Vista is a wholehearted(at least money handed if not hearted) effort to make a next-gen OS, and while taking up far more rescources, .. it'll do something. I'll stick with linux, partly cause Microsoft likes money too much at the inconvenience of us. But also cause i like picking my hardware. Not buying it all from the same place-> i'm talking to you Apple.

Re:What's Vapor^H^H^H^H^HVista got to do with it?

[Anonymous Coward]

XGL is nice to look at for doing basic desktop use, but overall is still inconvenient at best. Expecially if you want to play ANY game.

Really? Are you saying that the Quake III window during the XGL/Compiz demo was faked with a prerecorded movie?

XGL allows for full opengl acceleration for 3D, on the desktop, with less overhead than Vista appears to require. (XGL runs faster than an equivalent system with standard Xorg, and it's system requirements are consequently not very high)

Pretty face

[Anonymous Coward]

This is just a pretty face on top of gentoo.

You still have to emerge big time every week, wait days, then reconfigure all of your conf files to work with new versions. High maintenance!

Re:Pretty face

[corychristison]

You still have to emerge big time every week, wait days, then reconfigure all of your conf files to work with new versions. High maintenance!

# etc-update

Works very nicely. ;-)

Re:Pretty face

[Robstafarian]

Rubbish!

You don't have to emerge anything after installation, though you should stay on top of security alerts. You can easily leave your system alone, Portage just makes it easier to stay up to date in a more or less modular fashion. In other words, you don't have to wait six months and download five CD images to stay current from the bottom up.

Re:Pretty face

[Anonymous Coward]

Rubbish!

You need to update the packages that have security vulns and critical bugs. These packages have dependencies, which also have dependencies, which, guess what, also depend on other programs!

Re:Pretty face

[Anonymous Coward]

This is just a pretty face on top of gentoo.

Aero Glass on Vista: everyone says "Ugh, Microsoft software is so ugly."
Half-assed Aero knockoff on KDE: everyone says "Ooh, pretty eye candy!"

The hypocrisy is sickening.

Re:Pretty face

[Robstafarian]

Dear Anonymous Illiterate Coward,

Your first point agrees with what I said. Your second point doesn't necessarily dispute my use of the phrase "more or less modular", though it greatly exaggerates the nature of software dependencies. More often than not, you do not need to update a program's dependencies in order to correct a security vulnerability. If Frozen Bubble introduces a vulnerable online play mode, its correction need not involve SDL.

Furthermore, security vulnerabilities involving linked libraries aren't difficult to resolve. The gentoolkit package, which ought to be part of the main installation, provides the command revdep-rebuild to address exactly this issue (it also provides the aforementioned etc-update). Simply supply the library name as an argument and all programs which depend on it will be rebuilt, certainly not difficult. The time required to perform this operation can be greatly reduced through the use of the Gentoo Reference Platform to skip the compilation process.

Disdainfully,
Robstafarian

Re:Pretty face

[paulmer2003]

I dont think thats what people are saying, what people are saying is that they just do not like Windows. I dont personally, but I will admit that Vista is pretty - but thats all it has going for it.

e And that KDE theme, has nice window decorations, but thats it - I like my xfce more :)

http://www.paulmer2003.com/new.xfce4.png

I'd love to try it out

[Jestrzcap]

The question I will attempt to answer when I get home, is:
Does it allow me to use my WiFi on my laptop without having to do much tweaking. Currently there arent any livecd installers that allow me to browse using WPA while I install (im even having issues with knoppix)

Re:I'd love to try it out

[chrismcdirty]

On my modern T2500 Core Duo, my latest Gentoo install took me less than 6 hours from CD boot, to X up and running.

Re:I'd love to try it out

[Steinfiend]

And on my not so modern Centrino laptop, my latest Ubuntu install took less than 45 minutes from boot to X up and running, and DVD/MP3 Playback, and Wireless access...

In fact thats how long it took on my ancient P3, and an even more ancient AMD laptop. Not that I'm anti Gentoo, its just I like to be able to use my computers during the same season that I start an install.

Re:I'd love to try it out

[chrismcdirty]

Understandable. I was just commenting on the comment saying it would take days to get it running. I think I've gotten it running in less than 24 hours on my old 1.5GHz celeron a long time ago.

And not that I'm anti-Ubuntu, but I've learned a ton more using Gentoo than I have using any other easy-to-use distro (Ubuntu,SUSE,Fedora,Mandrake).

Re:I'd love to try it out

[Jestrzcap]

I understand why you would say this, but the install disk really does say something about the usability of the distro in general. I spent the last month playing with FC5, SuSE, Gentoo, and Ubuntu, and each time I run an install I have a different problem or something that doesnt work right that requires me to spend X hours hacking, reading, and compiling. I know how to do a post install customization job and compile my own kernel and all (I've been running gentoo for a long time now on other systems, all of which required quite a bit of tweaking). Part of what I am doing is scouting out what will work "out-of-the-box" so that I can recommend it to friends and family in the future. I love portage, debs and rpms are ok, but overall usability is very important if I'm going to recommend it.

In the future try not to whip out the "so stupid" comments right away. It just makes you sounds emotionally driven and less informed. Inital detection of hardware and usability in a LiveCD distrobution is a direct indication of how well it will work after being installed.

Re:I'd love to try it out

[Jestrzcap]

"You are stupid for thinking it's not stupid."

That was both informational and unemotional.

"Choosing not [to] a use a perfectly viable distribution of Linux because you can't surf the web during its installation (but can afterward) is stupid."

1.) Why?
2.) As I said, I've also worked with SuSE and FC5 (neither of which have LiveCD installs).
3.) If you have a LiveCD it should fully showcase your distrobutions abilities. Failing to recognize hardware indicates to me that Im going to have problems getting it to work later. For this reason I may not recommend it to my friends or family (most of whom do not want to deal with a learning curve)

Im leaving for the weekend to a place with no internet (oops, misjudged me didnt you), so I wont have an opportunity to respond futher this weekend. Enjoy your weekend.

Re:I'd love to try it out

[Anonymous Coward]

Im leaving for the weekend to a place with no internet (oops, misjudged me didnt you), so I wont have an opportunity to respond futher this weekend. Enjoy your weekend.

This is a lot like those kids in junior high school who say they have a girlfriend, but she goes to another school. For all we know, you might be:

a) Going somewhere that actually does have internet, but ignoring this thread;
b) Going somewhere that doesn't have internet, and scratching yourself uncontrollably, having hallucinations, etc. all weekend (similar to a heroin addict); or,
c) Going somewhere that doesn't have internet as you said.

I think all three are equally probable, and only (c) is what you claimed to be the case; therefore, it's more likely that you're full of shit and that you really are an internet addict. It's just a series of tubes; what's there to get excited about?

Re:I'd love to try it out

[sumdumass]

Interestingly, with GPLv3 as it stands in draft 2, This just works while including dvd/MP3 playback will become GPL incompatible. It is said that is is for the better.

It is arguably against the GPL as it stands but language in v3draft2 makes it specificly incompatible because of license issues.

Re:I'd love to try it out

[Jestrzcap]

I love that this comment was posted AC.

Just a mild shoulder sunburn from the weekend, and I learned how good bourben slush is.

Proprietary drivers?

[byolinux]

This appears to come with proprietary drivers from ATI and Nvidia.. Can someone confirm or deny this?

Re:Proprietary drivers?

[lintux]

Since it's Gentoo-based it probably downloads the driver sources and then compiles it. The "installed in a few minutes" just means it can install a basic OS with a compiler and all the sources in a few minutes. After that it has to compile everything so that you can optimize it for your very unique machine so it'll be 0.5% faster than Ubuntu. :-)

However, of course this means that they can do this all without voiding any license.

Re:Proprietary drivers?

[Anonymous Coward]

I caertainly hope it doesn't. I would love to see the GPL changed to where it can't run with proprietary anything, that includes closed source software. Everything should be open, if not you will get monopolies such as Micro$hit and Vidia/ATI and Creative fucktards.

Re:Proprietary drivers?

[Jakob777]

And you are the one that is going to help out the teams out there making these drivers?? I believe that you about as dumb as it can get, lets make a situation out of this. I make a product, I make the drivers to this product ( Microsoft does not do this, they only get drivers added to there system), now I allow all user to do this, make your own driver I don't really care ( I don't know of any suits out there trying to stop this so I could be wrong), but if you want I will also support your OS platform if you want as well.

Now really look at it, the person that made your lawnmower tells you how to run it, you can put water into it, but they really suggest gas, may run or not run on water, up to you, but you get to try anything you like. I understand where you come from, and yes open source would be great, but you don't have to use closed source versions of anything, but you may get a lawn mower running on water.. but I would rather be able to play my games on Linux and play with all the cool XGL items, then sit there and get pissed or just operate on a command line. But then again you might like that.

Re:Proprietary drivers?

[Anonymous Coward]

It is the proprietary and closed-source bullshit that is causing all of the problems today. If everything were in the open, then there would be no monopolies owning patents to softwar & hardware to prevent competition, no viruses, no spyware, etc. I would say you are very stupid as you make stupid analogies. What does lawnmowers and gasoline/water have to do with this? Nothing

A better analogy to use would be a lawn mower only allowed to use micro$hit fuel insetead of gasoline. Remember, INFORMATION WANTS TO BE FREE!

Re:Proprietary drivers?

[Gothmolly]

Information doesn't want anything. YOU don't want to pay for it, hippy.

I'll made my own Linuzzzz distro. I'll call it...

[Anonymous Coward]

MiniTampon

Sy... what? Sybian Linux?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sybian Linux: the first female-user-centric distro.

Vista window decoration

[mnemonic_]

The submitter mentioned a "Vista-esque KDE theme." That's all he meant. Sabayon's KDE looks a lot like Vista, nothing more.

We're sorry, that name is taken.

[pridkett]

Rule number 1 about naming a project -- do a google search. If something else that might be pretty related comes up pretty easily, you've picked a crappy name. In this case Sabayon is already used as the name for GNOME profile editor. It seems like this has been around much longer too.

Rule number 2 about naming a project -- when naming a project, try to get a domain name that reflects the project. I'm confused about how I would know from a URL like http://www.lxnaydesign.net/ that it would be about Sabayon linux.

Remember to play nice boys and girls. And for the Sabayon Linux folks, don't worry, Mozilla made the same mistake a few years ago. Clear up the confusion and move on -- it looks like you've got a pretty slick little distro going.

Re:We're sorry, that name is taken.

[0xABADC0DA]

You forgot...

Rule 3 about naming a project -- don't use an acronym
Rule 4 about naming a project -- should describe what the program actually does
Rule 5 about naming a project -- make a list of > 100 names that could be good
Rule 6 about naming a project -- do not make up a new word unless its compound

and...

Rule 0 about naming a project -- there are no rules

Re:We're sorry, that name is taken.

[WilliamSChips]

Gentoo itself hijacked the name from some file manager.

Indeed! Cases in point!

[brunes69]

Microsoft Excel - Obviously the name means that this software will let me excel at something. Maybe it will let me excel at *anything*?!?! My life just got simpler!

Microsoft Outlook - Hrm, sounds like this may be some soft of lighthouse control software. Either that, or maybe it will predict the future for me! Combined with Excel I will be unstoppable!

Apple QuickTime - Hrm, sounds like this let's me time-travel using my computer, my making time go faster. Or perhaps it is a timing program for when you are learning the quick step. Not sure yet....

Seriously - if you think Linux apps are the only ones with weird names, you're out to lunch. The problem is not *naming*, it is *branding*. Maybe when ou have a few million to invest in a linux application branding campaign you will donate it? No? didn't think so.

Re:Indeed! Cases in point!

[PFI_Optix]

I don't think the problem is so much that OSS projects aren't named according to their use. I do think they choose bad names at times.

What's the difference between Ekiga or Sabayon and Excel/Outlook/Quicktime? Language. The latter are all easily-pronounced words, even if they aren't descriptive of the product's function. FireFox falls into this category as well; all the Mozilla project names are easy on the tongue. Even Mozilla is straight-forward, if a bit nonsensical.

What a lot of people forget is that the internet is a world-wide thing. Not all distributions are native to an English-speaking nation; I would expect a German product to bear a German name. But if you're going to go to the trouble of translating it to English, it seems to me that it would require relatively little effort to give it an English name as well.

Re:Indeed! Cases in point!

[utopianfiat]

GDB, GCC, MySQL, OpenLDAP, OpenSSH, etc. are in the "Okay, we understand why we need a TLA/FLA for this.", and in my opinion are better than Visual Studio, Oracle, Microsoft IIS (non-sequitur of a TLA?)

One piece of vaporware I'd criticize for their naming conventions is E17: let's release 500 projects whose names have nothing to do with their functions aside from their beginning with E. Ecore? Okay. Fine. Evas? I think not. Entice? Way past the line. Ekiga would probably be a viable name if their target extended beyond the *nix family. Instead, it should be called Gnome Conference, because that's what it is. A conferencing app for the Gnome desktop environment on a GNOME compatible system, not a portable app that can be applied to any environment and therefore deserves an obscure (Skype and VLC) name

Re:Indeed! Cases in point!

[amliebsch]

The problem is not *naming*, it is *branding*.

No, the problem is *naming*. All those other software names you referenced are either English words ("Excel","Access") or compounds of English words ("PowerPoint","QuickTime"). These are, for English speakers, far superior to foreign or nonsense words like "Sabayan", "Ekiga", or "Xine", which are at best silly and at worst unpronounceable. (Note the success of the English word compound "FireFox".)

Re:Indeed! Cases in point!

[WilliamSChips]

I thought that E17 was just short for Enlightenment version 17.

Re:Indeed! Cases in point!

[turbidostato]

What a lot of people forget is that the internet is a world-wide thing. Not all distributions are native to "an English-speaking nation"

Like... you for one?

What's the problem pronouncing "ekiga" or "sabayon"? I can tell you that Quicktime and Outlook sound ridiculous in Spanish; still they come from great software companies, so they must be all right, mustn't they?

Your problem is exactly the one that maintains tons of people within Microsoft realms: whatever you are widely exposed, you feel "natural", anything else is "weird" on your account.

Microsoft? The ones that have it short and soft?
Microsoft Windows? It must be due to the high number of security holes or something like this.
Microsoft XP ? That's obviously an emoticon for laughing on your face and showing their tongue... quite a proper name, after all.
Navision? Admiral Nelson's ability to win naval battles?
Oracle? Read your future on your hand for a nickel? (reading it backwards makes it quite a proper name in Spanish: Elcaro transalates to "The expensive one")
IBM? NBA? CIA? Boney-M?
HP? (Spanish for son-of-a-gun)?
Mac OS/X? What's that? Klingon?

In the very end, any short word without a clear meaning, more or less alternating wovels and consonants, so it maximizes probabilities to be pronounceable in most languages, with a proper marketing campaign backing it makes a good company/product name. The outshining paradigm? Kodak.

Re:Indeed! Cases in point!

[Malevolyn]

The name "Outlook" might not be that great. We've been told for years now by our Magic 8 Balls that "Outlook not so good."

Re:Indeed! Cases in point!

[PFI_Optix]

What's the problem pronouncing "ekiga" or "sabayon"? I can tell you that Quicktime and Outlook sound ridiculous in Spanish; still they come from great software companies, so they must be all right, mustn't they?

You didn't read my post, did you? "...if you're going to go to the trouble of translating it to English, it seems to me that it would require relatively little effort to give it an English name as well."

Substitute any other language for "English" and my point still applies. Quicktime and Outlook could have suitable Spanish names.

Microsoft? The ones that have it short and soft?
Microsoft Windows? It must be due to the high number of security holes or something like this.
Microsoft XP ? That's obviously an emoticon for laughing on your face and showing their tongue... quite a proper name, after all.

Microsoft: Microchips. Software. You figure it out. It's a name typical of early tech companies: mash two terms together into a nonsensical name that isn't difficult to say in the language it was invented in.

Windows: The term given to "those nifty resizable boxes that contain applications inside a GUI-based operating system." They chose to simply call them "windows" and then named the product the same. It makes perfect sense to me.

XP: Part of the annoying trend of the late 1990s and early 2000s where X was thrown into every product name possible, and cryptic lettering was the best way to mark a product as new. Chalk it up to marketing idiocy.

Navision? Admiral Nelson's ability to win naval battles?

It's now called Microsoft Dynamics NAV, so I presume that NAV is an acronym. NAVision would then just be tacking "vision" onto the end of a description of what the product does. Again, lame marketing, but also self-explanatory to those who would be searching for such a product.

Oracle? Read your future on your hand for a nickel? (reading it backwards makes it quite a proper name in Spanish: Elcaro transalates to "The expensive one")

How about "a person considered to be a source of wise counsel or prophetic opinions."

IBM? NBA? CIA? Boney-M?
HP? (Spanish for son-of-a-gun)?
Mac OS/X? What's that? Klingon?

International Business Machines
National Basketball Assocation
Central Intelligence Agency ...what?
Hewlitt Packard
Macintosh Operating System 10.

Welcome to the world where people don't like to say/write more than they have to. Acronyms and abbreviations are popular for well-known products and names; I'm sorry if that is too complicated for you, But that's just the way it is.

As for the topic at hand:

SAY BAY ON
SAH BAH YOWN
SAH BAY ON
SAY BAH YOWN ...and quite a few other options. It doesn't lend itself to easy pronunciation. "Microsoft" does.

Re:Indeed! Cases in point!

[genooma]

vaporware? I use it every day on my desktop.

Also offers a live cd

[Jarlsberg]

For those who don't have a DVD-rom drive, here's the link to the cd version: http://www.lxnaydesign.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=4 115#4115, torrent: http://www.lxnaydesign.net/gentoo/torrents/RR4-Lin ux-3.0.RC1-miniEdition.torrent

sabañón

[MBMarduk]

As a spanish speakers I had to cringe and laugh at "Sabayon" as it pronounced almost identically to sabañón.
(= Redness, inflammation and ulceration with itching in mostly hands, feet and ears due to cold.)

Re:sabañón

[Anonymous Coward]

"Sabayon" is actually an Italian word. I believe it's some kind of dessert.

Re:sabañón

[giorgiofr]

"Sabayon" is an English-looking transliteration of the way you would pronounce "zabaglione", which indeed is an Italian word. It's a yellow sauce, you can drink it or put it on top of cakes etc.

Bet this one gets crapped on like Kororaa did...

[advocate_one]

Kororaa had the 3-D drivers already there on the live disk and some fussbody got work on an improved live version stopped...

The main point I want to raise is that we do want to comply, honour and respect the GPL in relation to the Kororaa Project. Currently I am in limbo because no-one seems to be able to confirm the accusations made in the email.

If we are indeed in violation then on behalf of the Kororaa Project I sincerely apologise to the entire open source world, and will cease distribution of the Xgl Live CD immediately.

Is anyone out there able to shed some ground breaking light on this issue?

Although the Xgl Live CD has been halted, we are still working on the next official Kororaa release, 2006. Thank you all for your support.

Wait for the upcoming Lesbian Linux!

[Anonymous Coward]

Requires a 6.9 GHX processor, and has an intuitive phallic strap on interface device!

Re:Wait for the upcoming Lesbian Linux!

[SPY_jmr1]

Upcoming?

This has been out a while now... http://www.lesbian.mine.nu/ (very mildly NSFW, mostly suggestive)

Had to look it up, didn't know it was still around, heh.

Spy

Re:I'll made my own Linuzzzz distro. I'll call it.

[Lord Kano]

I'm waiting for "Proctologix", the distro to put a foot in Vista's ass.

LK

I hope they do not sell this in spain

[crodrigu1]

That word in Spain means that you got frostbite, so is a hint?

Nothing new or restricted to FOSS

[LWATCDR]

Some famous program names that make little to now sence
Lotus 1-2-3
Excel
Paradox
Oracle
Quicken
Access
Quattro Pro

What about the name of Lotus 1-2-3, Excel or Quattro Pro, tell you that they are spreadsheets?
What about Paradox, Oracle, or Access tell you they are databases?
What about Quicken tells you it is for finance?

Oracle, I assume was named after the Oracle of Delphi. Access could be a communications program, video game, or a screen reader.
Lots of really successful programs have really odd names. It is just that they have been around so long and are so popular that we know what they do.

Re:Nothing new or restricted to FOSS

[PygmySurfer]

Access could be a communications program, video game, or a screen reader.

Access actually was the name of a communications program from Microsoft at one time.

DVD movies?

[kayditty]

Is it using WINE? I thought there were no licensed DVD movie players for Linux.

Joke?

[StarKruzr]

I don't get it.

The video format

[vicino]

And btw how nice from microsoft to publish the video in wmv (no comment) and mp4 format (unconvertible with ffmpeg).

Transparent windows

[Frantactical Fruke]

Hello-oh! Someone's sleeping on the job. A hundred messages posted and I still don't see the obligatory

"Enlightenment had that years ago! That's so 20th century!"

I'm not being served here.