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Lessig Defends Free Culture in Keynote

lisah writes "Professor Larry Lessig, a keynote speaker at this week's Linux World Expo, took issue with current copyright laws and their effect on a free read-write culture. Lessig says that, by today's standards, the simple act of creating a video mashup renders its creator a 'pirate' and argued for sweeping changes that would embrace a fair use culture. Lessig asked the audience to consider sharing works under a Creative Commons license and redirect money they would spend on restricted content to organizations that support a fair use and free culture. He says that opponents of a free read-write culture have strong financial and political backing so unified community support is crucial. 'If the debate is controlled by lawyers and lobbyists...," says Lessig, 'this debate will be lost.'"

179 comments

  1. Interesting... by Humming+Frog · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It's interesting to see how this affects different media. Creating and posting a mash-up of the Harry Potter films would be grounds for a lawsuit, and yet there's nothing to stop millions of thirteen-year-olds writing terrible fanfic and posting it all over the internet. Oh, the horror!

    1. Re:Interesting... by sleeper0 · · Score: 1

      Of course there's nothing to stop those 13 year olds from acting in terrible harry potter fan made films either - but have them paste together full chapters of the books and share them, well then you'd have a lawsuit. So you were saying?

    2. Re:Interesting... by BootNinja · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Some authors, such as Orson Scott Card actively discourage fanfiction and takes measures to prevent it. Following is Card's own words on the subject:
      http://www.hatrack.com/research/interviews/yoda-pa tta.shtml
      (at the bottom of the page)
      Question
      How do you feel about your fans writing "fanfiction" using characters that are already established by you (e.g, Ender, Valetine, etc.)?

      OSC Answers
      I'm flattered; and then, if they try to publish it (including on the net) except in very restricted circumstances, I will sue, because if I do NOT act vigorously to protect my copyright, I will lose that copyright -- and that is the only inheritance I have to leave my family. So fan fiction, while flattering, is also an attack on my means of livelihood. It is also a poor substitute for the writers' inventing their own characters and situations. It does not help them as writers; it can easily harm me; and those who care about my stories and characters know that what I write is "real" and has authority, and what fans write is not and does not. So it's all pointless. I'd prefer simply to ignore it when it happens, but the way copyright law functions, I am told that I cannot ignore it. So there it is.
      Now, my understanding of copyright law is that you can selectively enforce it much like a patent, so Card may be mistaken here. Is anybody able to set me straight?
    3. Re:Interesting... by penix1 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      "Of course there's nothing to stop those 13 year olds from acting in terrible harry potter fan made films either"

      Except copyright law itself. The derivative works part of copyright keeps that from happening.

      So yes, those 13 year olds can be sued for just such a performance especially if they released it.

      B.

      --
      This is a sig. This is only a sig. Had this been an actual sig you would have been informed where to tune for more sigs.
    4. Re:Interesting... by FLEB · · Score: 1

      Right. Really, the only thing stopping the publishers is the complete idiocy of filing lawsuits against fanfic from a PR perspective. If/as the word of Creative Commons gets spread, hopefully more content producers will realize that it's simply a way of expressing and formalizing a more open relationship with their customers.

      (as I d-r-i-f-t offtopic...) I think the biggest thing standing in the way of more open licensing (and copyright moderation in general) is that for every derivative artist breaking the copyright law constructively, there're four or five shiftless leeches who just want free content for simple consumption. Unfortunately, it's difficult to make legal distinctions that make the content useful, but don't make producers fear that the leeches will take over. Well, there's that, and the creeping concept of intellectual property as property more than intellectual.

      --
      Information wants to be free.
      Entertainment wants to be paid.
      You just want to be cheap.
    5. Re:Interesting... by imroy · · Score: 1

      IANAL, but it sounds to me like he's mixed up certain aspects of trademark or patent law with copyright. Unless the fan is actually copying his work (more than the characters) then copyright is not involved. And unless he's somehow taken out a trademark on certain parts of his stories then there's nothing for the fans to dilute, which appears to be what he thinks is happening with "copyright".

    6. Re:Interesting... by penix1 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      See my post above about derivative works. Copyright law does prohibit derivative works. So Card can (and it appears from the post above will) sue those violating the derivative works clause of copyright.

      B.

      --
      This is a sig. This is only a sig. Had this been an actual sig you would have been informed where to tune for more sigs.
    7. Re:Interesting... by BootNinja · · Score: 1

      right. I understand that Derivative Works are prohibited, the part I'm not clear about is whether or not a copyright needs to be vigorously defended to be kept. Trademarks must be defended or they are thrown out. I was under the impression that this was not the case for copyrights.

    8. Re:Interesting... by Dun+Malg · · Score: 1
      Trademarks must be defended or they are thrown out. I was under the impression that this was not the case for copyrights.
      You are absolutely correct. No amount of infringement ever invalidates copyright. It is only trademarks which must be defended. Card is sorely ignorant. I cannot say that this surprises me. I have never been particularly impressed with the man.
      --
      If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
    9. Re:Interesting... by BootNinja · · Score: 1

      I used to be impressed with his writing back when he was writing about children instead of for children. Ender's game is still my favorite book of all time, but the shadow shit and the later books in the alvin maker series are not up to par with his previous work. It's sad. But I suppose inevitable.

    10. Re:Interesting... by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      Also the amount of infringement necessary to invalidate a trademark is enormous. That only happens when people use the trademark as part of their normal speech. When people say e.g. photoshopping instead of photo manipulating or "using Adobe Photoshop TM to modify a photo" that can invalidate a trademark but people referring to your trademarked term in another work (e.g. mentioning that the character carries an iPod) will not invalidate it since it doesn't lose its function as a unique item description (ordering a "coke" can net you a Pepsi in some regions but ordering a "Playstation 2" won't be understood as "give me an XBox" by anyone).

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    11. Re:Interesting... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe because one incorporates copyrighted material and the other is often only inspired by such? Many fanfics only contain characters (trademarkable, but not copyrightable) and general plotlines (patentable, if you find a really "good" clerk, but again, not copyrightable. The distinction where inspiration and fair use become copyright violations isn't all that clear. Copyright holders probably prefer to avoid PR fallouts associated with trying to find that invisible line and leave fanfic authors alone if they don't lift large chunks of prose.

  2. Money! by andrewman327 · · Score: 3, Interesting


    How much money would this culture cost the entertainment producers? If fair use is really fair then it should still allow


    I do not think that media should be allowed to be replayed for free. Significant amounts of money went into making TV shows and movies and the like and any system must ensure that the producer gets his cut. Contrary to the demands of my sig, not all information should be completely free. Using the CC license is a happy medium. The I really think that this speaker has the right approach, so to speak. From TFA:

    He also noted that there are two ways of approaching the argument for free culture. The first is the "lefty" way of talking about ideals, which doesn't seem to get very far with many people. The "right" approach discusses why expanded rights for users under copyright law would be good for business, good for growth, and good for the economy and society.
    --
    Information wants a fueled airplane waiting at the hangar and no one gets hurt.
    1. Re:Money! by chris_eineke · · Score: 3, Insightful
      I do not think that media should be allowed to be replayed for free.
      That's one of many options. If there a lot options, usually a free market can make the right decision (not the best, just the right). Let's get rid of the state-enforced monopoly that is copyright and see with what option businesses come up with. Try DRM? Fine with me. But don't legislate it.

      I do not think that media should be allowed to be replayed for free. Significant amounts of money went into making TV shows and movies and the like
      That's funny. Compare a Ferrari from 1983 (random date) that cost $230,000 to make and sold for $800,000 to a baseball card from 1930 that cost $0.02 and sold for $0.50. The Ferrari is less worth today, but the baseball card increases its value. Conclusion: the price of a good does not depend on the cost, but the on the desire of the buyer. The more desire there is for a product, the higher the price will be. Austrian Economics, check it out.

      and any system must ensure that the producer gets his cut.
      Good idea in theory. In practice, that's communism. And as we already know, that didn't and continues not to do so well. (Compare: someone who polishes turds. Should he get paid for the hard work he does?)
      --
      "All you have to do is be fragile and grateful. So stay the underdog." Chuck Palahniuk, Choke
    2. Re:Money! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The amount of money is irrelevant.

      This is the same argument that the entertainment companies told us why the VCR and cassette would cost them billions and it would kill creativity; exactly the same argument that you're making. In fact, many people have made the counter-argument: DVD's didn't really take off until it was relatively simple to copy them, but that's another topic.

      We all know those arguments are bunk because history has shown us they're bunk. And they reason they're bunk can be put like this:

      10% of a big thing is better than 100% of a small thing.

      The current crop of execs think they're entitled to 100% of the whole thing. They don't get it. Nobody gets 100% of the whole thing.

    3. Re:Money! by Mr.+Hankey · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The entire purpose of Copyright, as it was initially envisioned, was to create a thriving public domain to benefit the people as a whole. Yes, that which others had spent money on was originally intended to be free after a time, in order to allow the creator time to make a profit before their work was contributed to the public. As a limited sort of monopoly, it more or less did what it was intended.

      Through gratuitous copyright extension however, the system has been perverted into what is primarily a vector with which to attack others through the legal system. What was originally supposed to be a way to increase the size and quality of the public domain is now being used to create virtually unlimited monopolies on information. Whatever view you may have on copyright, it's certainly not being used as it was originally intended. The Creative Commons is a step in the right direction, but we're still stuck with the problem.

      --
      GPL: Free as in will
    4. Re:Money! by Rakishi · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That's one of many options. If there a lot options, usually a free market can make the right decision (not the best, just the right). Let's get rid of the state-enforced monopoly that is copyright and see with what option businesses come up with. Try DRM? Fine with me. But don't legislate it.

      Well if we're going to remove artificially create rights and restrictions we also need to get rid of most laws. Or are you being hypocritical? Why do YOU have a monopoly on your property? I should be able to take whatever I want, sure you can stop me or try to but I should be able to freely shoot you dead as well.

      Good idea in theory. In practice, that's communism.

      Huh? By that reasoning all artificial rights are communism. Everything short of total anarchy is communism.

    5. Re:Money! by bayankaran · · Score: 2, Insightful

      How much money would this culture cost the entertainment producers?

      How can you monetize/calculate the revenue of your work released under "Creative Commons" or other licenses?

      I am an entertainment producer. Its easy to make cheap copies of whatever (CD/DVD/download) you are selling. So one cannot determine the loss of revenue if you release your work under a "Creative Commons" license.

      I dont put any type of restrictions on the DVDs (there is an FBI warning, but who takes it seriously) I sell. Instead I tell my customers I trust their judgement.

      --
      Tat Tvam Asi
    6. Re:Money! by Mr.+Hankey · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Well if we're going to remove artificially create rights and restrictions we also need to get rid of most laws. Or are you being hypocritical? Why do YOU have a monopoly on your property? I should be able to take whatever I want, sure you can stop me or try to but I should be able to freely shoot you dead as well.

      You're missing the point. Copyright did not start out to be a mechanism for forcing people to pay for content every time they were exposed to it. The current incarnation is completely counter to its original purpose, and arguably no longer serves the public in a positive way.

      Huh? By that reasoning all artificial rights are communism. Everything short of total anarchy is communism.

      Forced distribution of resources dictated by the government is communism, capitalism lets the market dictate how they are distributed. By what definition is copyright capitalistic?

      --
      GPL: Free as in will
    7. Re:Money! by dwandy · · Score: 1
      Well if we're going to remove artificially create rights and restrictions we also need to get rid of most laws. Or are you being hypocritical? Why do YOU have a monopoly on your property? I should be able to take whatever I want, sure you can stop me or try to but I should be able to freely shoot you dead as well.
      And you've just illustrated with Intellectual Monopoly is not property. It just doesn't translate.
      As this is /. we can queue the unlimited number of bad analogies, but the reason they are all bad is for the simple reason that ideas aren't property. They can't be owned.

      Physical land, buildings, cars etc don't require artificial rights since only one person can occupy or use a physical object at one time. And they're scarce ... as in limited quantity.
      Ideas have no such problem. Any idea can literally be known by every living human and this doesn't preclude the next-born to also know or have this idea, and in no way impacts all those that already have the idea.

      and any system must ensure that the producer gets his cut.
      Good idea in theory. In practice, that's communism.
      Huh? By that reasoning all artificial rights are communism. Everything short of total anarchy is communism.
      Nope PP just said that a system that ensures that people get paid for work (regardless of value or desire of public to pay) is communism. Capitalism and free-market economies don't guarantee a return. The intellectual monopoly laws are much closer to communism than no law (imho they still don't qualify since the protection is still no guarantee of return, but that's just mho...)
      --
      If you think imaginary property and real property are the same, when does your house become public domain?
    8. Re:Money! by MP3Chuck · · Score: 1

      "Compare: someone who polishes turds. Should he get paid for the hard work he does?"

      If there's a demand for polished turds, yes. But if The Market says "We want turds, but we don't want to pay for them" while the Turd Polisher #1 says "My turds are $3" then The Market needs to find Turd Polisher #2, who's giving them away for free, instead of subverting Turd Polisher #1's business ... and let him instead realize that he's pricing himself out of the market.

    9. Re:Money! by dwandy · · Score: 1
      What was originally supposed to be a way to increase the size and quality of the public domain is now being used to create virtually unlimited monopolies on information.
      I'd state it as

      What was originally supposed to be a way to increase the size and quality of the public domain is now being used to ensure that no new content ever gets into the public domain. The exact opposite of the original intent.

      --
      If you think imaginary property and real property are the same, when does your house become public domain?
    10. Re:Money! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't know how much it would cost to the entertainment producers. And frankly, it's beside the point. If you couldn't repay your mortgage because the insurer realized that your house is in hurricane zone and increases the premium, you'd be p****d off, I'd be too, but that's the law.

      Actually, that's a poor example because insurers have pretty good risk models, based on hard data, while there is no such model,much less data, for copyrights. Only whiners (read: RIAA, MPAA, ...).

      Anyway. I do agree that media should be allowed to be replayed for free, not because anyone should somehow get his cut, but as a way to ensure that enough money is funnelled into entertainment to get it done. Obviously, that doesn't apply to software: open source has proven that it's gonna be written even if nobody gets a cut. Allowing people to make money is a mean, not an end.

      There's 2 problems with copyrights as they work now. First, the people never agreed with it. Laws were passed and treaties signed as an efficient (at the time: you did it, you own it, unless you sign it off, and if somebody wants to use it, he knows where it came from because there wasn't so many sources) and politically cheap (because the people had to buy the media anyway so couldn't care less about how it came to be) way to codify intellectual creation.

      Now people write software for kicks, some blogs gets more readers than newspapers, when computers can do singing it will be music (say 10 years), and then movies (20), *and* people have to buy medias with a 10000% markup over optimal cost or get sued for money out of proportion of the crime they committed and their means.

      Copyright as we know it dead. I thank Lessig for pointing that out, and offering a legal way to get around some limitations, namely: it's f*cking impossible to know what you can actually do with that content, and very little content requires mafia like protection to be made (except by nazis;-).

      I'd advocate:
      - mandatory copyright registration. No-reg was efficient when outlets were few. Now that billions are publishing on the web, it's impossible (read: costly) to track down rightholders and licenses. *Very* inefficient. But registering and searching can now be done very cheaply, thanks to th web.
      - exponential renewal costs. If the heirs of Elvis, or Disney, want to keep something copyright protected for 100 years, fine with me, as long as they pay for to compensate for the impairment it causes to artists who are creating *now* and consumers who are paying 100* cost for a CD.

    11. Re:Money! by chris_eineke · · Score: 1

      The only industry I can imagine that pays for polished turds is the hardcore porn industry. ;)

      (Yeah, mod me -1: Disgusting.)

      --
      "All you have to do is be fragile and grateful. So stay the underdog." Chuck Palahniuk, Choke
    12. Re:Money! by jone_stone · · Score: 1

      It's pointless to say "that's communism" or "that's capitalism". The truth is that there's no such thing as pure communism or capitalism. Neither one works as an economic system unto itself. You have to mix and match. You could easily say that socialized health care is a communist idea, but the fact remains that most developed countries have it regardless of their ostensible economic system. Copyright is the same way. It's a system that fosters the sharing of ideas. It may not be "pure capitalism" but the monopolies that emerged in the 19th century demonstrated that pure laissez faire ends up hurting a lot more people than it helps.

      Personally, I'm with Mr. Lessig. I'm planning on releasing my next short film under a CC license because I want us to go back to a system of copyright that fosters growth in the arts, not stagnation.

    13. Re:Money! by westlake · · Score: 1
      The entire purpose of Copyright, as it was initially envisioned, was to create a thriving public domain to benefit the people as a whole

      The purpose of copyright is to encourage and reward creativity and ambition. It is not to make of the public domain a refuge for the second-rate.

      I see posts almost daily on Slashdot complaining that there is nothing new in movies or music or games.

      But when the Geek produces his homemade own sci-fi epic, it is, quite predictatively, an anal-rententive remake of Star Trek: The Original Series.

    14. Re:Money! by Swift2001 · · Score: 1

      Because capitalists like Benjamin Franklin set it up? And Ayn Rand was nothing, at that time, but a nasty shudder after a nightmarish dream of perverted sex?

    15. Re:Money! by bky1701 · · Score: 1

      Your only argument seems to be "OMG it's COMMUNISM", ignoring what communism is and acting as if equality is the one evil on earth. It's not.

    16. Re:Money! by bky1701 · · Score: 1

      And here I didn't think there was ANY use.... ;)

    17. Re:Money! by penix1 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "- mandatory copyright registration. No-reg was efficient when outlets were few. Now that billions are publishing on the web, it's impossible (read: costly) to track down rightholders and licenses. *Very* inefficient. But registering and searching can now be done very cheaply, thanks to th web."

      Copyright registration requirements wasn't cut out due to few outlets but to comply with the Berne Convention requirements.

      See "1886: Berne Convention" and "1976: Revision of the U.S. Copyright Act "

      on

      http://www.arl.org/info/frn/copy/timeline.html

      In short, it is a result of the fighting over copyright terms between Europe and the US that is continuing today in the form of WIPO.

      "- exponential renewal costs. If the heirs of Elvis, or Disney, want to keep something copyright protected for 100 years, fine with me, as long as they pay for to compensate for the impairment it causes to artists who are creating *now* and consumers who are paying 100* cost for a CD."

      This one just went right over my head...The term extensions were enacted to comply with treaties agreed upon by nations around the globe. It is part of what I like to refer to as the Copyright Cold War. It works like this:

      Europe sees the US doing something that is making them gobs of money and hinders them from making the same gobs. We can't have that so we propose a treaty to make things "uniform". Now Europe is making the same gobs of money and the US can't have that. Software patents in Europe is the latest thing the US is pushing for ...Wash, rinse, and repeat.

      The weapon in all this is trade sanctions. Any nation that doesn't enforce those treaties is immediately demonized and trade sanctions are used to force compliance. It is happening today to China. The US is proposing trade sanctions against China unless it tightens up its "intellectual property" laws.

      B.

      --
      This is a sig. This is only a sig. Had this been an actual sig you would have been informed where to tune for more sigs.
    18. Re:Money! by ratboy666 · · Score: 3, Informative


      You are wrong about TV The producer/actors/etc involved in a TV production are paid on the first airing. By the commercial inserts. If the program HAPPENS to be successful and go into syndication, there will be additional payouts, but that is NOT guaranteed. And, in some cases, is rather ludicrous (examples off the top of my head: reruns of Jeopardy, American Idol, or Survivor?).

      In other words, some shows MUST have made all the money on the first airing; we can presume that most others do so as well.

      TV programs and movies cannot be, as a result, directly compared. "Piracy" cannot really hurt TV, unless the program is pirated BEFORE it is released with its commercials. Indeed, PVRs with commercial skip are a greater "threat" to the TV content producers. Which is why product placement becomes such a big deal. I watch "American Idol" (a guilty pleasure). I rarely (never) watch it "live", but from my PVR, with commercials deleted. However, I know Coke and Ford sponsor the program - product placement. (and, yes, I *am* influenced by the ads.

      YMMV
      Ratboy

      "Piracy" can hurt movies; but not to a big extent. Specifically, it is still very costly to download a full-resolution (DVD) quality movie. I compute the typical cost in Toronto to be $5. Given that this is directly comparable to DVD rental, and considerably less convenient (days to download), AND is only DVD (SD) resolution, I don't think the theater experience is really threatened. And that is where the movies should be paid for -- the theatrical release.

      --
      Just another "Cubible(sic) Joe" 2 17 3061
    19. Re:Money! by Kadin2048 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The solution is not to make work on speculation; make it on commission.

      We've become attached to the speculative/at-risk work model of art production, even though I'm not convinced that it's really all that beneficial to artists. It results in many more artists and much more art than the market really demands at any given time, and many more failures than would otherwise happen, if artists waited for a demand to exist, and then created for that demand, rather than the other way around.

      If you are a sculptor, and someone pays you to make a sculpture, then you negotiate a price for your time based on how long it will take you to make the sculpture, and how much energy you're going to put into it. At the end of the time, they get the sculpture, and you move on to a new project. You get paid for your labor, they get a product.

      The idea that someone should be able to create something and then derive income from it, over and over and over, for hundreds of years, is a very new economic invention. Ultimately, as technology improves and the cost of reproduction becomes less and less, and the stopgap methods we use to make reproduction artificially expensive fail, both the cost and the value of the marginal copy fall to zero. The only things which have any value, are those which actually take skilled work to create. In other words, only unique works of art, new originals, are valuable when you have a world full of cheap copies.

      This means that there will always be a demand for artistic output. Even with the entire recorded output of human society on tap, people will want new stuff created. Rather than trying to monetize things which have already been created, artists need to concentrate on getting the value of their time paid for up front; rather than trying to amortize the cost of creation over multiple copies, demand that payment in advance.

      A large problem, however, is that the market for "art" is significantly smaller than the people currently trying to make a living producing it. There simply isn't room for that much of an industry; right now they only exist by selling copies -- things that have little or no inherent value, because they take little labor to produce. A transition to a more sustainable model would necessarily involve a fairly ugly "contraction" period. However this is a necessary consequence of the elimination of the parasitic industry which currently flourishes by selling things whose value in labor terms is fictitious and based on artificial scarcity.

      Skilled labor has value, copies don't. That's really the future; any model that attempts to impose a value on a copy which can be made by a machine in a few seconds, has to either depend on a monopoly (control of the means of production), or is eventually bound to fail.

      --
      "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
    20. Re:Money! by Zelbinian · · Score: 1
      Significant amounts of money went into making TV shows and movies and the like and any system must ensure that the producer gets his cut

      In a brief aside, there's a theory that I've been working on in my studies in which I have postulated that the amount of happiness/benefit that a person recieves based on the amount of money that person makes is an inverse exponential function. Really, I claim it is subject to the law of deminishing returns. I won't go into the full discussion, but I think most people would agree that doubling the salary for someone who makes $20,000/year is going to have a more profound impact on that person's lifestyle than if you doubled a person's wage from $1mil to $2mil. Yeah, you get a bigger house and another car or whatever. But as far as social brackets go, in the latter example, the same change is not going to escalate the person as far up the ladder as in the former.

      Now, that being said . . . how much is it really gonna hurt people like Tim Burton or Jon Peters or Peter Jackson or M. Night Shyamalan if they get paid, say, 10% less per flick for the public to have the opportunity to have a fair use policy that's actually fair?
      --
      Putting the 33k in G33k.
    21. Re:Money! by NewYorkCountryLawyer · · Score: 1

      westlake, you happen to be wrong. The purpose of copyright was twofold: (1) to reward the artist, and (2) to return the work to the public domain after a limited period of time. Now that the term of copyright has been tripled from 25 to 75 years neither purpose is being served. The artist is long dead. And the public has to wait a ridiculous 75 years. All that is being served is the interest of big money -- i.e. companies like Disney.

      --
      Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
    22. Re:Money! by Mr.+Hankey · · Score: 1

      It certainly wasn't my argument, however I felt it was worth pointing out that it's not particularly capitalistic either. My argument is that copyright law has been twisted to the point where it no longer serves its intended role of improving the public domain.

      --
      GPL: Free as in will
    23. Re:Money! by Mr.+Hankey · · Score: 1

      If the US government sets up social security, that doesn't make it a capitalist action. If the Chinese government sets up a free market, that doesn't make it a communist action. I'm not saying it's communism, but I am pointing out that it's no closer to capitalism. I personally find a fair amount of humour in watching people defend one unworkable ideal over the other.

      --
      GPL: Free as in will
    24. Re:Money! by Mr.+Hankey · · Score: 1

      While I don't disagree with any of your points in principle, I do believe that Copyright has been extended well beyond the period where it's useful for its intended purpose. It is my opinion that IP hoarding and the associated lawsuits have gotten to the point where they're destructive to both the public domain and the society in general.

      --
      GPL: Free as in will
    25. Re:Money! by Mr.+Hankey · · Score: 1

      The purpose of copyright is to encourage and reward creativity and ambition. It is not to make of the public domain a refuge for the second-rate.

      Precisely, the intention was to make our public domain and culture first rate. The fact that it has been turned on itself to produce money rather than improve our culture is a shame.

      --
      GPL: Free as in will
    26. Re:Money! by Mr2001 · · Score: 1
      If there's a demand for polished turds, yes. But if The Market says "We want turds, but we don't want to pay for them" while the Turd Polisher #1 says "My turds are $3" then The Market needs to find Turd Polisher #2, who's giving them away for free, instead of subverting Turd Polisher #1's business ... and let him instead realize that he's pricing himself out of the market.

      This is, of course, exactly what file sharing enables. The Market says "we want 'Hit Me Baby One More Time', but we don't want to pay for it", while Britney and iTunes Music Store say "that song is $0.99". The Market finds P2P, which is giving the song away for free, and perhaps iTMS will realize that it's pricing itself out of the market.

      Right?

      Because unlike polished turds, one song is not interchangeable with another. If you want to hear "Hit Me Baby One More Time", but you don't want to pay the asking price, you aren't going to be satisfied with another song that has different lyrics and different music, even if it is free. It's not the same thing.

      As far as subverting another's business, isn't Turd Polisher #2 already subverting #1's business in your example? TP #1 feels exactly the same impact when TP #2 gives away the same thing for free as Britney and Apple feel when P2P users give away the same song for free. #1 isn't losing any product, he's just losing the potential money he could've gotten if he were the only turd polisher in town--just as Britney isn't losing any product, she's just losing the potential money she could've gotten if she were the only source for copies of that song.
      --
      Visual IRC: Fast. Powerful. Free.
    27. Re:Money! by bky1701 · · Score: 1

      Ok. Nevermind then. I agree with that. :P

    28. Re:Money! by professionalfurryele · · Score: 1

      Last I checked, you, me or anyone else has no 'right to a profit'. If current entertainment is so expensive to produce, perhaps that is because it is a monopoly and woefully inefficient. Monopolies set their prices at such that marginal cost equals marginal revenue, rather than at equilibrium price. That is, monopoly pricing is inherently unfair and usually bad for the rest of the economy.

      It is irrelevant how much a product costs entertainment producers. If as an entertainer you want to make a profit, then sell a product that lots of people are prepared to pay for. Don't try to tell them what they can and cant do with the goods they have bought.

      Copyright is an agreement between producers of culture and the rest of society. For a limited time, producers get a monopoly on the work they create, to encourage them to create. Producers of culture are going too far. Copyright should be slashed to a matter of a few years, and fair use fully restored. Measures which will prevent works entering the public domain should be illegal as part of the agreement, and the bar for the length of copyright should be set such that royalties will not a pension pay.

    29. Re:Money! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I do not think that media should be allowed to be replayed for free. Significant amounts of money went into making TV shows and movies and the like and any system must ensure that the producer gets his cut.

      Dear Dumbass,

      Once I've paid $20 for a dvd or watch 18 commericials to pay for a 21 minute TV show, the producer has gotten "his cut." They've been paid. Now, what is the possible point of preventing me from enjoying it again?

    30. Re:Money! by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 1

      I would disagree as to even the rewarding the artist part. The grant to the artist is meant to encourage him. Whether or not he is in fact rewarded depends on the market. Whether or not he should be encouraged depends on the nature of his work and willingness to seek a reward (consider e.g. architectural works, which traditionally were uncopyrightable because we knew they'd get created anyway, what with copyright not being a notable incentive in that field).

      The purpose of encouraging the artist, however, isn't to do it for its own sake. It's to get more works into the public domain than we'd have there otherwise. If artists would create as much as they could on their own, without wanting copyrights, we'd have no need to grant them. It's rather like granting cable tv monopolies to get infrastructure built and maintained.

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    31. Re:Money! by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      Well, there has to be SOMEONE buying all those EA games...

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    32. Re:Money! by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 1

      Good idea in theory. In practice, that's communism. And as we already know, that didn't and continues not to do so well.

      I don't follow how paying the person responsible for the work -- the person without whom the work would not exist -- equates to communism. Please clarify?

      Compare: someone who polishes turds. Should he get paid for the hard work he does?

      Of course he should -- if there's a market for polished turds. But more to the point -- should the poor sot who crapped out the turd be getting paid for use of his product? (Eh? Yeah, I know. This isn't relevant at all, but the imagery made me chuckle.)

    33. Re:Money! by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      Because unlike polished turds, one song is not interchangeable with another. If you want to hear "Hit Me Baby One More Time", but you don't want to pay the asking price, you aren't going to be satisfied with another song that has different lyrics and different music, even if it is free. It's not the same thing.

      Who says other goods are more interchangeable? If you want a Ferrari a Fiat Panda isn't going to do it for you. If you want Kellog's Cornflakes Granola won't help you.

      Copyright does not strive to create the lowest price possible for a given work but it strives to create as many "good" (i.e. selling) works as possible. If Britney's songs are too expensive for you, look at songs made by another singer, perhaps you'll find something you like just as much for cheaper. Of course, if you want only that specific song you have the option to buy or not buy, as with all goods.

      P2P should not be considered valid competition for anyone (except other download methods). It is obviously free and it doesn't take much effort to take a published work and put it on P2P while it does cost a lot to create said work and that money is only spent in the hope to see sales of the work bringing in more money. That's why P2P is illegal, because it is not possible to compete with it if you are a creator of works, any time or money spent on creating the work puts you at a disadvantage and since P2P is free you can't make any of that back.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    34. Re:Money! by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      I don't think legislators cared much about the public domain, they simply didn't want to have to protect these things forver. Would suck to be sued because your work resembles some 200 year old story someone else found in his attic during spring cleaning.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    35. Re:Money! by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      That's what it worked like before copyright was around, problem is it costs a lot to hire an artist so back then only the rich could affort having any art made for them. The current system makes art cheaper for the common man instead of making it a status symbol of the rich. Of course you could use a "everyone pays into a common fund" model but that would be much more limited and not really encourage much competition, never mind that almost noone would pay for that as they can just get everything for free instead. The money going into the arts sector would greatly decrease in any case which would hurt the rate at which new art is produced. I really don't think that's in the public interest.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    36. Re:Money! by amliebsch · · Score: 1

      Any idea can literally be known by every living human and this doesn't preclude the next-born to also know or have this idea, and in no way impacts all those that already have the idea.

      Yes, that's true - ideas are nonrival goods. But they are not free goods, and they do roughly obey the law of supply and demand. The question becomes how to create incentives for the production of ideas, if the ideas cannot be valuable to the idea-generator.

      --
      If you don't know where you are going, you will wind up somewhere else.
    37. Re:Money! by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      Depends on what you mean with "right to profit". You do have a right to get paid if you deliver what people want. People taking your output for free goes against that. It depends on what you get paid for, if you get paid for making a hoe you can't dictate that hoe must be used in a specific way but if you get paid for a DVD that's for private display only then the buyer agreed he won't do more than private display with it. But people taking more than what was specified in the sales contract (explicitely or implicitely) should be required to pay you as they aren't upholding their end of the contract correctly and the sum they paid for the contract may have been greater had it included those extra usages. E.g. you can get a DVD for public performance but expect to pay a lot more for it. Taking a cheaper DVD that doesn't include public performance rights and using those rights anyway should not be allowed in any form.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    38. Re:Money! by Mant · · Score: 1

      Forced distribution of resources dictated by the government is communism,

      Er no. Communism is a political philosphy, not an economic one like capitalism. They are in no way opposites.

      Government control of resources is known as a Command Economy, or centrally planned. Its a part of the communist idea, but you can have a planned economy with any comuunisim at all (it is quite popular with some extreme right wing politicians as well).

      capitalism lets the market dictate how they are distributed. By what definition is copyright capitalistic?

      It isn't capitalistic, in the sense that neither are taxes or environmental regluation. It is wrong to assume that automatically somehow makes it communist.

    39. Re:Money! by poot_rootbeer · · Score: 1

      The entire purpose of Copyright, as it was initially envisioned, was to create a thriving public domain to benefit the people as a whole.

      I see this repeated often in Slashdot YRO discussions, but have seen little primary or secondary source material affirming this interpretation of copyright envisioners' intent.

      The purpose of copyright, intrinsically, is to confirm that creators have a special intellectual property right, that they have some form of possession over the creative works they make that others do not. If anything suggests that copyright was a method towards a thriving public domain, it is only the fact that under most versions of copyright law, those special rights eventually expire.

      Remember -- without copyright, EVERYTHING would be in the public domain. Copyright must limit the public domain, not enhance it.

    40. Re:Money! by cultrhetor · · Score: 1

      This is partially accurate, but I think I can add to the discussion you so astutely began. Anglo-American copyright law since the Statute of Anne (1709) was built on print (see next paragraph), and defined according to two major principles: that of social benefit, which you so eloquently stated, and of authorial profit (cf. the Sayre case of 1785). Subsequent recodification of copyright law in 1842 during Victoria's reign built on the idea of originality and authorial substance or originality. The problem, at the time, was that English publishers were ignoring English authors: copyright law had yet to become internationally recognized, and they could legally take a work by an American author, print it, sell it for next to nothing, and make a huge profit - this entire system worked in reverse on the American side of the pond. This recodification was adopted through international treaties in the late 19th century, which leads us to today's problem.

      In print, which includes non-digitized audiovisual media, the issue of origin and authority is not a problem: the original record is there, on the page (or the reel), and the question of plagiarism is not difficult at all. This leads to the current problem: the convergence of digital media and print-based copyright law. Hell, "the law" as we know it wouldn't exist without printed records of cases (which is how the "law" ends up being defined - ask any first year law student). One idea that Lessig raises frequently is that we are seeing most of these problems because of two reasons. First, a point he borrows from Walter Ong, is that we have so long been accustomed to print-based media in Western culture that we have a strong bias in favor of print-based ideals; ask a Westerner to think of a word, say, "customary," and he'll visualize the spelling of the word. The corollary - and second point - is that the problems between copyright law and digital media began with the first means of complete and accurate electronic reproduction, the camera, and subsequent art forms that evolved from it. Copyright law as it was originally conceived could not possibly predict that someone could take a picture of a woman on a couch for an advertisement that could be protected as original work, yet also be instantly and easily reproduced, shrunk, cut, and pasted into a collage which would also be considered "original work" - see David Hockney's photo collages, and Richard Hamilton's classic "Just What is it That Makes Today's Homes So Different, So Appealing?" (1956). Another example is Claes Oldenburg's gigantic Swiss Army Knife made into a gondola, a trademark infringement that is widely recognized as "art." Mashups, collages, parody, etc. - really, any juxtaposition of existing copywritten work - are at complete odds with the evolution of Anglo-American copyright.

      --
      "Tu fui, ego eris" - Virgil
    41. Re:Money! by Kadin2048 · · Score: 1

      Poor people, both today and in the past, have never really been able to afford much 'art.' Generally, all they can afford is copies. (About the only exception to this is theater, where you can afford actual labor-intensive art, because you pool your resources with a lot of other people.)

      Cheap mechanical reproduction shouldn't be confused with actual artistic output. The reproduction has little in the way of actual inherent value, since it contains very little labor. We are used to paying more for copies than they are actually worth (by a stored-labor-value reckoning), because of an artificial scarcity of copies. This is only possible because until recently, most people didn't have the capability of making another copy of a work themselves, and thus the people that did could charge an inflated price for each copy.

      In the model that I think would be the most sustainable, the cost of copies of artwork would go down dramatically; in fact it would probably trend towards zero (although never actually reach it). As people desired actual new content, a demand would develop, and people would pay artists to create it, either individually or as part of a group. The mechanics of how this might happen are infinitely variable; it could be as basic as outright patronage, or as complicated as some form of micropayment system to encourage an artist you particularly liked. It's not necessarily limited to the rich, because the middle class would not be paying as much for their 'copies of art' as they are now, and could probably afford to contribute somewhat.

      Yes, I agree there would probably be a net reduction in the amount of new art being created, but I don't think that's a bad thing. Right now you have a market that doesn't want and isn't interested in paying for most of what's being produced. There's not necessarily a public interest in just having things created for no particular reason; it would be better that the supply of "new art" was matched more closely to the demand, and thus the number of people attempting to produce art (of whatever sort) as a career would not exceed the demand quite so much as they do now.

      --
      "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
    42. Re:Money! by Mdentari · · Score: 1

      I'm with Lessig to. I'm going to release my first batch of music from my band under a CC license also.

      --
      Morality, filters both ways.
    43. Re:Money! by geninstability · · Score: 1

      Why do YOU have a monopoly on your property? I should be able to take whatever I want, sure you can stop me or try to but I should be able to freely shoot you dead as well.

      Hear that whooshing? That's the sound of the point blowing right past you. I have a monopoly on my (non-data) property because it is (collectively) a physical entity and thusly is subject to the limitations of scarcity and reproduction. That is to say, my car is a real object in space; there is only one of it and I am unable to create a replica of it for a reasonable cost. It is because of the inherent physical limitations that I can hold this "monopoly" on my car; I put the effort into obtaining it (I paid for it), therefore society grants me exclusive use. My MP3 collection, on the other hand, is not a phsyical entity and (surprise) is not limited by scarcity or reproductive restraints. I can make a perfect 1:1 copy of my MP3s with three mouse clicks. Since the cost to reproduce this property is so low, I no longer can claim the right to exclusive use through effort.

      So with that in mind, an answer to your query: No, you cannot take my car, the cost of obtainment and replacement is high enough that society bans that behavior. Yes, you can take any MP3 you want; I can always make another copy.

      You may want to read The Future of Ideas: The Fate of Commons in a Connected World by Mr. Lessig if you are looking for a more expansive explanation of these concepts. It is really a great read.

      --
      I am Jack's inflamed sense of rejection
    44. Re:Money! by Mr.+Hankey · · Score: 1

      The first copyright law in the US was entitled "An act for the encouragement of learning". Copyright exists (at least in the U.S.) purely to encourage the advance of science and the arts, which are the domain of the public, by encouraging people with a limited form of monopoly for their works. A reasonable limit is important, as it was recognized by the creators of the U.S. Constitution that unlimited monopolies do more damage than good. An excerpt from the Constitution:

      "Copyright law, in turn, traces back to the English Statute of 1710, which secured to authors of books the sole right of publishing them for designated periods. Congress was not vested by this clause, however, with anything akin to the royal prerogative in the creation and bestowal of monopolistic privileges. Its power is limited with regard both to subject matter and to the purpose and duration of the rights granted. Only the writings and discoveries of authors and inventors may be protected, and then only to the end of promoting science and the useful arts."

      --
      GPL: Free as in will
    45. Re:Money! by TomPP · · Score: 1

      Free as in freedom, or free as in free beer ?
      It does make a difference, and the current DRM basically forbids you to view almost any content on let just say Linux. Or BSD. Or Whatever.

    46. Re:Money! by Mr.+Hankey · · Score: 1

      To clarify, I am describing Copyright in the United States. In the U.S. Constitution, Copyright was redefined and limited in scope to the end that it serves the promotion of science and the useful arts. Authorial profit is defined as a means to this end, not the end in itself.

      --
      GPL: Free as in will
    47. Re:Money! by PCM2 · · Score: 1
      Er no. Communism is a political philosphy, not an economic one like capitalism.

      Upon what do you base this statement? Is it a coincidence that, after The Communist Manifesto, Karl Marx's most significant work is called Das Kapital? Marx saw capitalism and communism as not just comparable, but inextricably linked. He argued that communism would be the economic system that would succeed the era of rampant capitalism. Who knows... he may yet be proven right. The capitalist era seems only to be gaining steam.

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
    48. Re:Money! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The purpose of copyright is to encourage and reward creativity and ambition.

      It does the opposite. The reason we have any creativity at all is because most copyright laws are unenforced when violated, and because the costs for breaking the law is not very harsh.

      The major "creative" studios operate in direct opposition to copyright law -- they don't ask "May we legally explore this artistic concept, and may we legally write down our ideas as we continue this exploration?" (as strict compliance with the law would require). Instead they ask: "How much will it cost us to break this law if we get caught?", and they pay out royalties if a judge tells them to.

      Copyright law means you can't make something "too similar" to any "artistic" work. You can't build a cabinet that looks too much like any cabinet manufactured in the last 100 years. You can't just take an old technique and use modern refinements, because the first work to incorporate those refinements may be copyrighted, or the refinements themselves may be. And you can't just copy something that "looks old", because it may be a modern reconstruction of an old idea.

      The only reason any work gets done at all is because most of the time, copyrights are tossed out the window, and people just do stuff. The point of copyright is to tell other people what they can do with their own property; and it's ridiculous.

    49. Re:Money! by Mr2001 · · Score: 1
      Who says other goods are more interchangeable? If you want a Ferrari a Fiat Panda isn't going to do it for you. If you want Kellog's Cornflakes Granola won't help you.

      Well, I say they are, and I think most consumers would agree. You can buy more than one kind of corn flakes and more than one kind of sports car. The differences between a Ferrari and, say, a Lamborghini or a Viper are miniscule compared to the difference between one song and another.

      But other than trademarks (which have virtually no effect on the availability of replacement products) and patents (which expire much sooner than copyright), there's nothing stopping you from building your own car identical to the Ferrari, or making your own corn flakes identical to Kellogg's. And if you buy a Ferrari, there's nothing stopping you from reselling it to someone else - try that with a file you've downloaded from iTMS!

      [P2P] is obviously free and it doesn't take much effort to take a published work and put it on P2P while it does cost a lot to create said work and that money is only spent in the hope to see sales of the work bringing in more money.

      Nobody's forcing them to spend that money, you know. There's a perfectly good way to create artistic works, and get paid for it, without the possibility of having your sales undermined by P2P users: get the money up front. Find an audience who's willing to pay for your services before you spend all that time and money writing something. If you'd rather do the work now and look for money later, pretending that a song is something you can manufacture and sell in discrete units like bicycles or cereal, then you're taking the risk that people will get it without paying, because all the laws in the world can't change the fact that a song is information and it's impossible to stop the spread of information.

      Furthermore, just because you spent money "in the hope to see sales" doesn't mean you deserve to get paid. That was the original point of the turd polishing metaphor: you don't get paid just for doing work in our society, you get paid for doing work that people are willing to pay you for.
      --
      Visual IRC: Fast. Powerful. Free.
    50. Re:Money! by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      To you one sports car is like any other, to a collector it isn't. To me one pop song is like any other but to you it isn't. Also even songs I can strongly tell apart still compete, when I go into a store with the desire to buy a CD and see e.g. one by Metallica and one by Iron Maiden, neither of which I own I'd decide which to buy on various merits, including the price. Even though few copyrighted works provide exactly the same value here is still strong competition between them, anyone who doesn't already own all but one work he wants has the option to buy a competing product which provides better value. Since I rarely buy CDs or videos I'll use videogames as an example: There are often large numbers of budget titles available so buying a game at full price would require that I want that game a LOT and even then I could still decide that some other good game for a budget price is a better deal to me.

      Nobody's forcing them to spend that money, you know. There's a perfectly good way to create artistic works, and get paid for it, without the possibility of having your sales undermined by P2P users: get the money up front. Find an audience who's willing to pay for your services before you spend all that time and money writing something. If you'd rather do the work now and look for money later, pretending that a song is something you can manufacture and sell in discrete units like bicycles or cereal, then you're taking the risk that people will get it without paying, because all the laws in the world can't change the fact that a song is information and it's impossible to stop the spread of information.

      Of course you can get money up front but until there is a real scarcity of works available for free (i.e. everyone has seen everything he likes already) you'll have trouble finding someone to pay you. There are some people that pay an artist for a special occassion but those are usually affluent.

      People with money are usually pretty conservative with it, they want to know they're getting something good for their money so they might not like it if you told them you wanted to try something out that you don't know will work. There was a time when paying up front was standard and there is a reason all the great artists died in poverty.

      In any case this would greatly reduce the number of works being made. Copyright is a thin wrapper around the product "art" that allows it to be subject to the basic selection mechanisms present in capitalism. Sure, payment up front will eventually select as well, someone producing bad works won't get more funding but in today's system the selection is much faster and doesn't require artists to become dependent on a big money giver (currently you can self-publish, that power would die along with copyright).

      Furthermore, just because you spent money "in the hope to see sales" doesn't mean you deserve to get paid. That was the original point of the turd polishing metaphor: you don't get paid just for doing work in our society, you get paid for doing work that people are willing to pay you for.

      Yes but you don't get paid for unwanted work with today's system either. But you SHOULD get paid when people clearly want your work (download it via P2P) and simply decide to be cheap and not pay for it.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    51. Re:Money! by dwandy · · Score: 2, Informative
      Yes, that's true - ideas are nonrival goods. But they are not free goods, and they do roughly obey the law of supply and demand.
      I'm not sure what you mean by this: ideas aren't goods, but they are 'free' as in anyone can trade time and neuron-cycles for one. The notion that intellectual monopoly should be called intellectual property is marketing speak by those that want to extort rents... ideas aren't 'goods' or 'property' as they can't be 'owned' in the physical property sense.
      The question becomes how to create incentives for the production of ideas, if the ideas cannot be valuable to the idea-generator.
      Well, the real question is why everyone thinks that humans need incentive to create or be creative.
      Humans create.
      Our creativity is one of the main reasons we are the dominant species on this planet. That creativity bubbles within us (more in some than others to be sure!) and wants to get out.

      Creativity need no more a law to incent it than gravity does to attract bodies...

      If you're really interested, read this. It's kinda long, it's PDF, but it's probably the best stuff I've ever read on the subject.

      --
      If you think imaginary property and real property are the same, when does your house become public domain?
    52. Re:Money! by amliebsch · · Score: 1
      Humans create. Our creativity is one of the main reasons we are the dominant species on this planet. That creativity bubbles within us (more in some than others to be sure!) and wants to get out.

      True - left alone, humans will create. For themselves. But creating a market in ideas is the only way to have a mechanism that can easily compensate people for creating things of value to others. I think your example of OSS software is illustrative in this regard. There are no shortage of projects for popular new technologies - or flashy things that people get excited to work on - or high-profile projects that garner recognition and respect. But who is out there volunteering to create programs of very narrow interest and high complexity? Why is there no real OSS equivalent to AutoCAD? Or Adobe CS2? Why are there a thousand different window managers while it took 10 years for a functional equivalent to MS Access 95?

      --
      If you don't know where you are going, you will wind up somewhere else.
    53. Re:Money! by dwandy · · Score: 1
      True - left alone, humans will create. For themselves. But creating a market in ideas is the only way to have a mechanism that can easily compensate people for creating things of value to others.
      Well ...that's just not true. "only way"? current way, sure, but a market for ideas is only a coupl'a hundred years old and yet Mozart composed music that is still appreciated today and he was compensated. Am I suggesting that was a better way? maybe not, but it's different....
      But who is out there volunteering to create programs of very narrow interest and high complexity?
      The current system doesn't necessarily 'incent' to create those things that are most beneficial to society; just those that are the most profitable for the corporation...

      What I'm getting at, is that to discuss that another system may/may-not build the things that you want isn't really relevant as the current system may not build those things either.
      Lucas has complained that w/o copyright there won't be anymore $500m movies made as they just don't pay. So what?
      He might as well be asking why the system doesn't support hundred-billion dollar movies.

      No system is going to be perfect. But if it's important for $500m movies to be made (I can't see why it's price tag has anything do with how important it is to society that it be made) then capitalists will find a way to recoup the cost. Even without intellectual monopoly laws.

      At least in a system w/o intellectual monopolies there wouldn't be rent-seeking activities which are very bad for society, like setting drug prices so high that people can't afford them anymore. There is no fundamental difference between "something not being created" and "something that I can't get". I've read that some 80% of recorded music is unavailable for purchase. I don't know if it's true (I suspect it is) but if I can't legally aquire it, it might as well not have been created...

      As a final note, ask any economist and they will tell you that included in the definition of 'monopoly' is that there will be a lower supply at a higher price.
      Is that what we want for ideas? Less ideas that cost more? If you haven't read the PDFs in my previous post, do yourself a favour and check them out. While it's a lot of reading, it does read nicely; it's not a heavy read.

      --
      If you think imaginary property and real property are the same, when does your house become public domain?
    54. Re:Money! by Mr2001 · · Score: 1
      People with money are usually pretty conservative with it, they want to know they're getting something good for their money so they might not like it if you told them you wanted to try something out that you don't know will work.

      I don't think so. Consider anyone else who provides a service: a barber, for example. Before you pay him to cut your hair, you have no idea how well he's going to do it. And yet this hasn't killed the market for haircutting, has it? You can get recommendations by word of mouth, you can look at examples of his past work, or you can just take the plunge and spend $10 to find out first-hand how good he is.

      There was a time when paying up front was standard and there is a reason all the great artists died in poverty.

      I don't think so. Copyright hasn't magically made it a cinch to earn big bucks; there are a lot more people in the world today, so the tip of the iceberg is proportionally bigger, but the vast majority still don't earn much. The web is full of horror stories from musicians who end up owing their labels, etc.

      In any case this would greatly reduce the number of works being made. Copyright is a thin wrapper around the product "art" that allows it to be subject to the basic selection mechanisms present in capitalism.

      As I pointed out above, the wrapper is unnecessary. Capitalism handles services just fine already.

      Furthermore, the wrapper isn't exactly thin: look at all the invasive laws that it needs to support it. In order for artists to treat their work as discrete little manufactured packages, your computer, your DVD player, your ISP, your HDTV set, and your cable box/DVR all have to conspire against you. Entire classes of works are prevented from being made or pushed underground (e.g. mash-ups), while other works have to be modified (e.g. movies released on DVD with the original soundtracks cut out) or tied up in court (e.g. The Wind Done Gone).

      Yes but you don't get paid for unwanted work with today's system either.

      Right.. what happens under today's system is the opposite: you do work without knowing whether or not you'll get paid for it. You invest a ton of time up front, you get a loan from your publisher, and if there isn't as much demand for your work as you hoped, then you have to pay it back and you've wasted all that time.

      But you SHOULD get paid when people clearly want your work (download it via P2P) and simply decide to be cheap and not pay for it.

      How much should you get paid, exactly, when it's evident that people are unwilling to pay the price you're asking? The free market is the primary way we determine prices. You say "they're just being cheap", I say "the market has spoken and the optimal price is $0".
      --
      Visual IRC: Fast. Powerful. Free.
    55. Re:Money! by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      Copyright adds an option for the artist, the option to use it. If you want to do the service model and waive all restrictions copyright lets you place you have the freedom to do so. It's completely opt-in. It also gives the people who don't want to run this as a service the power to choose a different format. Of course it doesn't give the end user the option to choose which model to apply to a good but the end user has the choice to take his money elsewhere.

      As I pointed out above, the wrapper is unnecessary. Capitalism handles services just fine already.

      The wrapper moves it from service to good category.

      Furthermore, the wrapper isn't exactly thin: look at all the invasive laws that it needs to support it.

      No, those are unnecessary. The law itself provides and enforces all power a copyright holder will ever need, the ones who demand more and more technical or legal additions just want a special treatment they're not entitled to (if the law let them they wouldn't need the extra crap, if the law doesn't let them they shouldn't be able to either).

      Right.. what happens under today's system is the opposite: you do work without knowing whether or not you'll get paid for it. You invest a ton of time up front, you get a loan from your publisher, and if there isn't as much demand for your work as you hoped, then you have to pay it back and you've wasted all that time.

      Well, that's how it works with every business. Getting paid without your product making money means you're an employee instead of an employer.

      How much should you get paid, exactly, when it's evident that people are unwilling to pay the price you're asking?

      Nothing. But your customers shouldn't be able to get it either. The deal isn't made and you just sit on your stack of unsold merchandise and need to rethink your business strategy. But neither party should be able to circumvent the deal. You don't break into their house and steal their money, they don't take your product for free. Of course we could easily do it that way, we get to download any works we want and the RIAA, MPAA, etc. is free to take our physical property. Mandatory sales contracts.

      The free market is the primary way we determine prices. You say "they're just being cheap", I say "the market has spoken and the optimal price is $0".

      Duh. The optimal price, from the view of the buyer, is 0. That's why we had to codify things like theft. Because unlawfully acquiring something is usually much more profitable than paying for it.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    56. Re:Money! by Mr2001 · · Score: 1
      Copyright adds an option for the artist, the option to use it. If you want to do the service model and waive all restrictions copyright lets you place you have the freedom to do so. It's completely opt-in.

      Er.. a system that allows one person to opt himself and everyone else in isn't exactly "opt-in". The rest of us don't get a choice.

      The wrapper moves it from service to good category.

      But as we know, it doesn't need to be moved. Millions of people earn a living by providing services as nothing more than services.

      No, those [invasive laws] are unnecessary. The [copyright] law itself provides and enforces all power a copyright holder will ever need, the ones who demand more and more technical or legal additions just want a special treatment they're not entitled to (if the law let them they wouldn't need the extra crap, if the law doesn't let them they shouldn't be able to either).

      I disagree. I think the invasive laws are a natural consequence of copyright, because copyright is basically unenforceable today without them. When even the cheapest Wal-Mart PCs can copy CDs and DVDs, and the populace is increasingly willing to do so even though it's illegal, copyright law has little effect on its own. You can't stop someone from making copies in his basement unless you post a guard in his house - or require hardware manufacturers to build guards into his equipment.

      Well, that's how it works with every business. Getting paid without your product making money means you're an employee instead of an employer.

      Nope. Employees don't have to pay their wages back if it turns out the work they did wasn't as useful to the bottom line as it seemed... but that's exactly how royalty advances work. Employers don't ask for your paycheck to be paid back; that's what payday loan sharks do.

      But neither party should be able to circumvent the deal. You don't break into their house and steal their money, they don't take your product for free.

      The reason stealing is wrong is that you're taking something away from its owner, depriving him of it. If I put my car up for sale, and someone magically makes a copy instead and drives off in an identical car (leaving me with the original), I might be sad because I didn't get paid, but he hasn't really done anything wrong.

      That's why we had to codify things like theft. Because unlawfully acquiring something is usually much more profitable than paying for it.

      We had to outlaw theft because when your physical property is "unlawfully acquired", you don't have it anymore. If it could be copied and used by many people simultaneously like information can, we wouldn't need laws against that either.
      --
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    57. Re:Money! by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      Er.. a system that allows one person to opt himself and everyone else in isn't exactly "opt-in". The rest of us don't get a choice.

      Not regarding that one good but you do get the choice to buy something else. Property is opt-in for the owner, not other people. If you're the only one in your town who doesn't want to share his car with others, is it okay if they just take yours?

      I disagree. I think the invasive laws are a natural consequence of copyright, because copyright is basically unenforceable today without them. When even the cheapest Wal-Mart PCs can copy CDs and DVDs, and the populace is increasingly willing to do so even though it's illegal, copyright law has little effect on its own. You can't stop someone from making copies in his basement unless you post a guard in his house - or require hardware manufacturers to build guards into his equipment.

      The law doesn't do much about mugging either but noone proposed additional laws for that.

      Nope. Employees don't have to pay their wages back if it turns out the work they did wasn't as useful to the bottom line as it seemed... but that's exactly how royalty advances work. Employers don't ask for your paycheck to be paid back; that's what payday loan sharks do.

      Depends on the business you're in. Not even EA has the nerve to demand their money back.

      The reason stealing is wrong is that you're taking something away from its owner, depriving him of it. If I put my car up for sale, and someone magically makes a copy instead and drives off in an identical car (leaving me with the original), I might be sad because I didn't get paid, but he hasn't really done anything wrong.

      I'm not talking about stealing, I'm talking about demanding the advantage a contract gives you without fulfilling the obligations.

      We had to outlaw theft because when your physical property is "unlawfully acquired", you don't have it anymore. If it could be copied and used by many people simultaneously like information can, we wouldn't need laws against that either.

      If you unlawfully acquire a song the copyright holder loses the option of selling it to you. With isolated cases that may not mean much but if enough people do it that destroys the market the copyright holder wanted to sell his good to. May not be anything like theft but works pretty well as an anticompetitive measure, i.e. if it didn't violate copyright it should violate antitrust laws.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    58. Re:Money! by professionalfurryele · · Score: 1

      I stand in a town square and shout out the news. People appreciate it. Do I now have the right to charge people for it?

    59. Re:Money! by QuantumG · · Score: 1

      He asked for references, not for a repeat performance of your comment.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    60. Re:Money! by Mr2001 · · Score: 1
      Not regarding that one good but you do get the choice to buy something else. Property is opt-in for the owner, not other people. If you're the only one in your town who doesn't want to share his car with others, is it okay if they just take yours?

      No, but there's a good reason why it's not okay: because that would leave me without a car. Making a copy is okay, and if everyone else in town can come up with a way to copy my car, more power to them.

      The law doesn't do much about mugging either but noone proposed additional laws for that.

      Mugging happens in public. You can enforce laws against mugging just by patrolling public places, and guess what, that's what police do. Theoretically, if your city spent enough money, they could put a cop on every corner 24 hours a day, and muggings would go down a lot without invading anyone's privacy. The same is not true of copyright - the only way to even enforce it in theory is to invade people's homes and equipment.

      I'm not talking about stealing, I'm talking about demanding the advantage a contract gives you without fulfilling the obligations.

      All right, suppose I offer you a contract: I'll sell you gas for your car at $20 a gallon for the next six months. You decline, and you go and buy gas from someone else at $3 a gallon. Under your logic, that's "demanding the advantage a contract gives you without fulfilling the obligations" - you don't like my terms, so you're going to someone else who offers you the same thing on better terms.

      But it's fine, right? Because you're not taking gas out of my tanks, depriving me of anything or causing me any extra trouble, you're getting it from someone else. Just like if you download a Britney song from Kazaa, you're not taking it off Britney's hard drive, or using any of her bandwidth, etc... you're getting it from someone else.

      If you unlawfully acquire a song the copyright holder loses the option of selling it to you. With isolated cases that may not mean much but if enough people do it that destroys the market the copyright holder wanted to sell his good to.

      If you're against that, you're against competition. When you buy a phone from Cingular, doesn't T-Mobile lose the option of selling it to you? When you buy a used Camry from Crazy Eddie, doesn't Wacky Larry down the street lose the option of selling you his used Camry? When you buy a satellite dish, doesn't Comcast essentially lose the option of selling you cable?

      May not be anything like theft but works pretty well as an anticompetitive measure, i.e. if it didn't violate copyright it should violate antitrust laws.

      You've got it backwards. Copyright itself is an anticompetitive measure: a work can only be sold or given away by the copyright holder; everyone else is banned from competing.
      --
      Visual IRC: Fast. Powerful. Free.
    61. Re:Money! by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      Theoretically, if your city spent enough money, they could put a cop on every corner 24 hours a day, and muggings would go down a lot without invading anyone's privacy. The same is not true of copyright - the only way to even enforce it in theory is to invade people's homes and equipment.

      How about hiring enough enforcement personell that you can take any warez distributors down within minutes? Physically unfeasible, theoretically possible.

      All right, suppose I offer you a contract: I'll sell you gas for your car at $20 a gallon for the next six months. You decline, and you go and buy gas from someone else at $3 a gallon. Under your logic, that's "demanding the advantage a contract gives you without fulfilling the obligations" - you don't like my terms, so you're going to someone else who offers you the same thing on better terms.

      No, the deal is 20$ for your gas or 3$ for that other guy's gas. He doesn't offer me your gas for 3$ (which would obviously involve stealing some of it out of your tank).

      But it's fine, right? Because you're not taking gas out of my tanks, depriving me of anything or causing me any extra trouble, you're getting it from someone else. Just like if you download a Britney song from Kazaa, you're not taking it off Britney's hard drive, or using any of her bandwidth, etc... you're getting it from someone else.

      The difference is that you didn't put any effort into giving your competitor that gas while with the song Britney (or the RIAA) did 99% of the work and that competitor merely clicked "copy". As a customer you'd encourage people to stop making music and only leech other people's music. (apropos leeching, even warezers won't like it if you just copy and don't fulfill your obligations, in this case uploading)

      If you're against that, you're against competition. When you buy a phone from Cingular, doesn't T-Mobile lose the option of selling it to you? When you buy a used Camry from Crazy Eddie, doesn't Wacky Larry down the street lose the option of selling you his used Camry? When you buy a satellite dish, doesn't Comcast essentially lose the option of selling you cable?

      Cingular's phone != T-Mobile's phone. Cingular has the option of offering a superior product or making it cheaper, a copyright holder cannot do that when competing against illegal copying as that competitor would just take any improvements and copy them without own expenses. Any additional work the copyright holder puts into his goods means more loss for him.

      You've got it backwards. Copyright itself is an anticompetitive measure: a work can only be sold or given away by the copyright holder; everyone else is banned from competing.

      Everyone else is allowed to compete on the same terms: Make your own goddamn music if you want to sell it! Because otherwise you encourage people to not create anthing new and instead hope that some idiot tries to do that for them.

      If you want o compete with a commercial product by offering a free one, do it like Linux and create your own goddamn OS (even if it's pretty much a clone of another product you're still adding your own ideas), don't just sell warez copies of Windows. Which would be better for us: Free copies of Windows or having a completely open OS?

      Really, I don't see how Britney Sprears is any less interchangeable than Kellog's Cornflakes or Coca Cola or how copyright is any worse for competition than trademarks (because the primary value of a trademark is the ad money you put into it).

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    62. Re:Money! by Mr2001 · · Score: 1
      How about hiring enough enforcement personell that you can take any warez distributors down within minutes? Physically unfeasible, theoretically possible.

      Nope, that's only one form of infringement. There are other forms that aren't visible to the public and can't possibly be detected or prevented without invasive actions. What are you going to do about people copying CDs and DVDs at home for their friends - search everyone leaving a house? How about encrypted transmissions between private individuals over the internet?

      The difference is that you didn't put any effort into giving your competitor that gas while with the song Britney (or the RIAA) did 99% of the work and that competitor merely clicked "copy".

      So what? That work is in the past; no one forced Britney to record the song, but since she did, the work is done and the bits are out there. Making more copies today doesn't retroactively make her work any harder in the past.

      As a customer you'd encourage people to stop making music and only leech other people's music.

      Or maybe you'd encourage them to arrange payment before they start working, like everyone else who provides a service.

      Cingular's phone != T-Mobile's phone. Cingular has the option of offering a superior product or making it cheaper, a copyright holder cannot do that when competing against illegal copying as that competitor would just take any improvements and copy them without own expenses.

      If they're the same model, then they are ==. They're even more similar than Britney's CD is to some random P2Per's MP3, because at least in that situation, you can choose between a physical disc with artwork and uncompressed PCM audio, and a lossily-compressed audio file with no extras whatsoever.

      And Britney certainly can compete with free copying. She could put an autographed pair of panties in each CD case, for example, or a coupon good for free shipping at her online store. She can't do anything to make the bits themselves more attractive, but she can attract customers by selling something besides information.

      Everyone else is allowed to compete on the same terms: Make your own goddamn music if you want to sell it!

      That's hardly competition, and it's a pretty ridiculous thing to say anyway. What if the mayor of your town decided that only his son could sell club sandwiches - would it be a good excuse if he said "Invent your own goddamn sandwich if you want to sell it!" Would that statement magically transform his anticompetitive action into a competitive one?

      The fact is, copyright is a government-granted monopoly, and monopolies are the opposite of competition. Just like there's no good reason to say only one person can combine these ingredients to make this sandwich, there's no good reason to say only one person can transmit these bytes in this order... unless you just want to abuse your power to benefit one person at everyone else's expense.

      Because otherwise you encourage people to not create anthing new and instead hope that some idiot tries to do that for them.

      People seem to be pretty dumb, or lazy, in this hypothetical world you're describing. Don't they realize that they can get paid in exactly the same way as everyone else who provides a service: by charging for the service itself?
      --
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    63. Re:Money! by NewYorkCountryLawyer · · Score: 1

      What are you talking about?

      --
      Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
    64. Re:Money! by QuantumG · · Score: 1

      Sorry, wrong thread :)

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    65. Re:Money! by NewYorkCountryLawyer · · Score: 1

      No problem. Was just wondering what I'd missed. Thanks very much for clarifying.

      --
      Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
  3. Sadly... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Most people are going to look at Dr. Lessig and fail to grasp why this is important at all. Until we all realize that we're being ripped off, and that this kind of freedom IS important, we're going to be stuck with the media giants telling us where, when, and how we can use "their content."

    1. Re:Sadly... by hamfactorial · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I've always felt that the reason DRM and content restrictive licenses don't drum up more outrage is simply because most people are entertainment sinks. Media and content goes into their ears and eyes and then doesn't do anything. The creative types, the young folks learning about mixed media on computers, and the artists are in such small number that their outrage over being stifled goes unnoticed by everyone else. If more people actually used the media as a means of creative expression and not just a disposable good, we wouldn't have this issue. Note that I have no idea how to fix it, I'm just bitching about cause/effect.

      --
      Did you know subscribers can see articles in the future? Holy shit!
    2. Re:Sadly... by PlusFiveTroll · · Score: 1
      drum up more outrage is simply because most people are entertainment sinks.

      That is because the media companies want us to be entertainment sinks. Much of the population is too busy filling there mind with crap to notice what is going on in the world unless its being broadcast to them by one of the big six.

      Check out "You Are Being Lied To" by Rusk Kick for some insightful information

    3. Re:Sadly... by Jack+Action · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I've always felt that the reason DRM and content restrictive licenses don't drum up more outrage is simply because most people are entertainment sinks. Media and content goes into their ears and eyes and then doesn't do anything.

      Yes and no.

      Wait until DRM restrictions are slapped on TV's (HDTV anyone?) and begin to interfere with Joe Couch Potato's ability to watch the latest pablum.

      Then, there will be outrage.

  4. Mr. Lessig: Go get stuffed by 2muchcoffeeman · · Score: 0, Flamebait
    As I read Mr. Lessig's comments, he believes that if somebody wants to make a movie based on one of Spider Robinson's books, or Robert Ludlum's books, or Tom Clancy's books, then those authors have no right to be compensated.

    That's bunk. If somebody's taking your ideas, your concepts and/or your creations and making money off them, then you have the right to be compensated for the other party's adaption of your idea.

    Mash-ups, like rappers' "sampling," are nothing more than stealing somebody else's creativity and hard work.

    --
    Prevent Windows piracy. Use Linux instead.
    1. Re:Mr. Lessig: Go get stuffed by QuantumG · · Score: 1

      Nice to see someone clearly and unapologetically proffer their opinion. Many people feel the same way as you. Personally I think you're on crack, but I'm in the minority. Just so we're clear, do you believe Spider Robinson or Robert Ludlum or Tom Clancy should have the right to veto any film based on one of their books too?

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    2. Re:Mr. Lessig: Go get stuffed by MrAndrews · · Score: 4, Informative

      Authors have the right to be compensated under CC licenses by choosing CC-NC-SA. All a CC license does in that case is makes it clear to the readers of the book that they can enjoy the fair use privileges we used to take for granted. There's a distinction between consumers and resellers there that modern copyright fanatics forget: the law was not meant to keep me from giving my copy of Harry Potter to my friend, it was meant to keep me from printing a thousand copies without permission. Copyright's trying to remove all those rights, and CC is an attempt to clarify them again.

      But the bigger issue is whether Jack Ryan is actually the exclusive property of Tom Clancy as a concept. Fanfic isn't strictly legal if you're a copyright maximalist. Exploring the characters and ideas that other authors have created should be encouraged. "Patriot Games" may not be the best book in the world, but it could be that someone out there will write the Best Novel of All Time based on a character Mr Clancy created. But no one will try that if they think they're going to get sued. CC content creates an environment where derivative works can be made without fear of retribution, and quite possibly lead to more revenue streams for the originating artist.

      CC does not have to mean "nobody gets paid". It's more about "nobody has to be scared of lawyers".

    3. Re:Mr. Lessig: Go get stuffed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      There is no such thing as a "right to make money". All you have is a right to try. You know, freedom?

      I write fairly innovative software (clustereding stuff) for a start up. If they become successful enough, they might sell out to Oracle or - god forbid -, Microsoft. If they do, some people will make a bundle. I'll make nothing.

      Some may argue that I poorly negotiated my contract, that I should have stock options, whatever. And they's be right, too.

      The point is that I do that because I like it. If people are more creative than I am at making money, good for them. Of course I'll be jealous for a while, I'm human.

      If I had chosen another job, or went painting, similar stuff would have been created anyway. If there was no copyright, I'd be buried in NDAs, but I'd be doing it anyway. So it's not like the people would be loosing anything. Somebody else is probably doing paintings similar to what might have "created".

      The whole idea of copyright is based on 3 ideas:
      - creativity is scarce;
      - creating requires time people don't have;
      - distribution is expensive.

      The first never was true. People will create. That's human nature.
      The second... you're working what? 50 hours a week? That leaves you how much to do whatever you want to do?
      The third is obsolete thanks to the 'net.

      If there's any lesson the world at large should draw from the whole open source thing, it's that people *will* create *without compensation* because they just damn *feel* *like* *it* (re: Murphy's law for lab animals).

      So it's time to ditch copyrights as we know them.

    4. Re:Mr. Lessig: Go get stuffed by dwandy · · Score: 1
      Mash-ups, like rappers' "sampling," are nothing more than stealing somebody else's creativity and hard work.
      Mash-up artists, like rappers "sampling" are working and applying their own creativity -- aka: hard work.
      I like mash-ups ... most of them suck. Large.

      Making *good* use of sound...any sound, is an art. And doing it well is arguably more difficult...if a note doesn't fit, you can't change it. It just doesn't fit.

      You need to get over the notion that "art" is always _new_. In reality, art is new every few hundred years if ever. Art is the reinterpretation of previous art pasted over the canvas of the current society.

      Chuck Berry "invented" rock 'n roll (just a r&b variant at the time!) and the Beach Boys just took Chuck Berry and re-interpretted it as viewed by the surf culture. etc, etc, etc...

      --
      If you think imaginary property and real property are the same, when does your house become public domain?
    5. Re:Mr. Lessig: Go get stuffed by penix1 · · Score: 1

      "The whole idea of copyright is based on 3 ideas:
      - creativity is scarce;
      - creating requires time people don't have;
      - distribution is expensive."

      You need to add one just after the second:

      - creativity has expenses;

      The cost of raw goods to create whatever it is you are making shouldn't be ignored.

      B.

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    6. Re:Mr. Lessig: Go get stuffed by shadwstalkr · · Score: 1

      Exploring the characters and ideas that other authors have created should be encouraged.

      To a point. The problem is that there is a big difference between exploring existing characters and cashing in on popular characters, but it's not an easily defined difference. It is generally good for the culture to have the freedom to use characters in contexts not blessed by the creator. On the other hand, it is incredibly easy to use the popularity of a character to sell mediocre merchandise (like the unauthorized Calvin windshield stickers). If an author has done the work of constructing a character and associating it with certain ideologies in the popular mind, why should he not be compensated when a third party capitalizes on that work? More importantly where and how do you draw the line legally?

    7. Re:Mr. Lessig: Go get stuffed by MrAndrews · · Score: 1

      Legally, I'd say the line is drawn as such: You may creative derivative works using elements from this creation, but commercial exploitation of those works must be approved by the original author. Unless they specifically waive that right.
      The blurring of copyright at the moment means that people avoid writing derivatives because there's no distinction between commercial and non-commercial works. If there's a chance I'll be sued for writing something, I really have to weigh how much I want to do it. Copyright shouldn't be a weapon to stop people from exploring new ideas based around other artists' works... it should be used as a tool to prevent the unauthorized commercialization of works. Narrowing the focus back to what it was meant to be would cut back on litigation and immediately make the world a more creative place.

    8. Re:Mr. Lessig: Go get stuffed by arose · · Score: 1

      Ideas and concepts aren't protected by copyright.

      --
      Analogies don't equal equalities, they are merely somewhat analogous.
    9. Re:Mr. Lessig: Go get stuffed by PCM2 · · Score: 1
      But the bigger issue is whether Jack Ryan is actually the exclusive property of Tom Clancy as a concept. Fanfic isn't strictly legal if you're a copyright maximalist. Exploring the characters and ideas that other authors have created should be encouraged. "Patriot Games" may not be the best book in the world, but it could be that someone out there will write the Best Novel of All Time based on a character Mr Clancy created. But no one will try that if they think they're going to get sued. CC content creates an environment where derivative works can be made without fear of retribution, and quite possibly lead to more revenue streams for the originating artist.

      First of all, fanfic is completely legal under copyright law. If you've created an original work that doesn't borrow large sections from any other work, then you own the copyright on that work outright. You can't copyright character names or even the titles of books. You can, however, trademark them ... and this is where most fanfic runs into trouble, but this is a completely separate issue.

      Besides, I really doubt any fanfic will ever rise to the category of Greatest Novel of All Time, mainly because most people recognize a pastiche for what it is.

      This debate has been going on throughout history. Many people consider the first "modern" novel to be Don Quixote de la Mancha by Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, which was published in two parts. The first part appeared in 1605 and the second in 1615. Before Cervantes could publish the second part, however, a man writing under the name of Alonso Fernándo de Avellaneda published an unauthorized sequel to the original, in an attempt to capitalize on Cervantes' huge success. Cervantes was pissed.

      There was no trademark law at the time that could protect him. Instead, he fought back by devoting several sections of the authentic sequel to lampooning and chiding the impostor. Some characters in the real sequel even claim to have read the fake one.

      More to the point, academic society frowns on Avellaneda's work, which has come to be known as the "false Quixote" and is often dismissed outright. In other words, society at large perceives the validity of Cervantes' "ownership" of the character of Quixote, even if there is no explicit law on the books that makes what Avellaneda did a crime, and they view the Avellaneda book as a pointless pastiche -- even though a few people who have actually taken the time to read it claim that it's actually decent fun.

      So you can't act like this debate is a manifestation of the modern era; in fact it goes back centuries. And you also can't act like mainstream society agrees with your view on fanfic, and only evil modern media corporations take the opposite view, because the historical record clearly proves you wrong.

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
    10. Re:Mr. Lessig: Go get stuffed by MrAndrews · · Score: 1

      Fanfic may be completely legal under copyright law, but the concept of fair use is, too. All it takes is a C&D to frighten people away, which large corporations use willy-nilly. It's not as if most CC licenses communicate more rights to the end-user than normal copyright does, its main function is to say: "We're not going to come after you with a stick for enjoying this work". A fear of legal action is enough to keep people from exploring things, whether the law backs up the threat or not.

      As for whether fanfic can rise to the level of great literature... I'd say there's as good a chance as not, really. Honestly, I don't see the difference between a Star Wars novel and something written about the fall of Troy (on a conceptual level at least). If you write off a whole class of art as being frivolous simply because it's derivative, you might be missing something great. And if you try and restrict that realm from existing, you're certainly losing something... whether it's a real work of art or just a dry run for something else. ('Fanfic' is a bad term, too, because it carries a negative connotation... but it's shorthand for what it means, I guess, so we're stuck with it... but don't just the book by its cover)

      The debate isn't a manifestation of the modern era, but, like you said, the modern era's given the originating artist (or, more likely, the corporation that owns the copyright) a huge arsenal of weapons to put unreasonable dampeners on creativity. Personally, I'd love for all works to go public domain after 7-14 years, and then let the rest of the world build upon the stuff that's out there. Homer didn't just make that stuff up off the top of his head... and there might be fantastic things we can't imagine right now because nobody's given the right to explore them.

    11. Re:Mr. Lessig: Go get stuffed by PCM2 · · Score: 1
      Fanfic may be completely legal under copyright law, but the concept of fair use is, too. All it takes is a C&D to frighten people away, which large corporations use willy-nilly.

      As they are required to do, by the terms of trademark law. If you fail to "vigorously defend" trademarks, you could lose the protection. Again, you're not talking about copyrights with fanfic. You're talking about trademarks.

      As for whether fanfic can rise to the level of great literature... I'd say there's as good a chance as not, really. Honestly, I don't see the difference between a Star Wars novel and something written about the fall of Troy (on a conceptual level at least). If you write off a whole class of art as being frivolous simply because it's derivative, you might be missing something great.

      I've given you an example of some great fanfic of the ages (the False Quixote). Please cite a counter-example of real world fanfic that succeeds in rising even to the level of a licensed Star Wars novel. And even then, to me, no Star Wars novel will ever be considered great literature, licensed or not. If you don't understand why, then I submit that you are woefully behind on your reading. My recommendation is to branch out of the Star Wars aisle.

      The debate isn't a manifestation of the modern era, but, like you said, the modern era's given the originating artist (or, more likely, the corporation that owns the copyright) a huge arsenal of weapons to put unreasonable dampeners on creativity.
      No it doesn't. It gives you copyright law, which is the very essence of the Gnu General Public License, as well as the Creative Commons licenses. As for the rest of the "arsenal," that's something else again, and contrary to what you keep saying, it's not about copyrights. Mickey Mouse cartoons could go out of copyright tomorrow and you would be able to make and sell as many copies of those cartoons as you wanted ... but you might still not be able to use an image of Mickey Mouse on the front cover, or Disney's logo, or the Mickey Mouse logo, or even Walt Disney's signature ... because those things may all still be trademarks. You need to read up on IP law, cuz you're confused. (This is not to say that I'm arguing in favor of current trademark laws, but changing copyright law won't change trademark law, so you're barking up the wrong tree.)
      --
      Breakfast served all day!
    12. Re:Mr. Lessig: Go get stuffed by MrAndrews · · Score: 1
      As they are required to do, by the terms of trademark law. If you fail to "vigorously defend" trademarks, you could lose the protection. Again, you're not talking about copyrights with fanfic. You're talking about trademarks.
      I would submit that in a lot of cases, uninformed C&Ds are issued and heeded without trademark protection backing them up. And it's the state of overly-aggressive copyright law that makes it plausible that the threat is real. But yes, there is a distinction, so I'll agree with you there. I think it's a shady area in practice, but you're definitely right.
      I've given you an example of some great fanfic of the ages (the False Quixote). Please cite a counter-example of real world fanfic that succeeds in rising even to the level of a licensed Star Wars novel.
      Can't think of anything off the top of my head. But that's not to say there isn't anything, just that I am not well-read enough to know about it. I would also say that your prejudice against popular culture may blind you to great works right under your nose (again, no evidence, just a feeling). If Charles Dickens time travelled to 2006 and wrote an epic novel about the trials of Harry Potter, would it be garbage?
      And even then, to me, no Star Wars novel will ever be considered great literature, licensed or not. If you don't understand why, then I submit that you are woefully behind on your reading. My recommendation is to branch out of the Star Wars aisle.
      I actually don't read books like that at all, I'm just saying that the Star Wars mythology is the kind that lends itself to great literature... just because George Lucas hasn't hit on some pure undeniable genius from his own creation doesn't mean it's not there. If it took Shakespeare and his contemporaries a few iterations of each play to make something we consider great, maybe the same is going to be said for Darth Vader one day. Maybe not. But (blurring trademarks and copyright together into a single blob here), the state of today's IP laws make it impossible to find out.

      And here's where I cheat a bit and ask for your insights: if Mickey Mouse's copyright were to expire right now, then it'd be legal for me to sell copies of his "free" cartoons without fear of a lawsuit. If Mickey is then a public domain entity, would trademarks actually apply to him anymore? That is to say, can you exert trademark control over public domain art? Or would that simply be a question of "the static silhouetted head of Mickey Mouse is trademarked", but the character himself moving about the screen is now?

      Or, to bring it back to Star Wars (shoulda picked some other pop culture property), if that series were public domain today, would the trademarks have much value? It seems to me that deflating modern copyright would almost, by extension, deflate the related trademarks. But CC doesn't fix that, I guess.

      Ah, so related question: if I release a book CC-SA, I can't very well trademark any of the elements of that book, can I? Am I making any sense?
    13. Re:Mr. Lessig: Go get stuffed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ideas and concepts aren't protected by copyright.

      Did you ever grab a song? Hug a story? Put a dance routine on the shelf?

      Ideas and concepts are protected by copyright. Books aren't copyright: stories are copyright. That's why you can't just change the font and get a new copyright: the font may be different, but the underlying idea of the story is the same. That's also why even if you translate the entire book into another language (changing every single word of the work!) it's *still* a copyright violation: the underlying idea of the story remains unchanged.

      Copyright supresses the right to comment on and refine ideas; it's original purpose was to stifle freedom of expression in England, specifically, to stifle religous viewpoints that Queen Anne didn't like.

      Today, it prevents would-be artists from building on someone else's intellectual discoveries, and is *still* used to stifle religious argument: consider the all the copyright lawsuits launched by the Church of Scientology, for example.

    14. Re:Mr. Lessig: Go get stuffed by PCM2 · · Score: 1

      I would submit that in a lot of cases, uninformed C&Ds are issued and heeded without trademark protection backing them up.

      Certainly true; but that's not the fault of the issuer. Remember: Anyone can sue you for anything. Moreover, a lawyer can write a letter on any topic he/she wants.

      If Charles Dickens time travelled to 2006 and wrote an epic novel about the trials of Harry Potter, would it be garbage?

      I expect so. Because he'd be writing prose designed to target/consume an intellectual property, rather than doing what writers ought to do, which is concentrate on telling good stories with compelling characters. By insisting on limiting himself to the use of someone else's character, he's already chucked out half his faculties.

      if Mickey Mouse's copyright were to expire right now, then it'd be legal for me to sell copies of his "free" cartoons without fear of a lawsuit. If Mickey is then a public domain entity, would trademarks actually apply to him anymore? That is to say, can you exert trademark control over public domain art?

      Murky. You'd be advised to tread carefully. For starters, Mickey Mouse doesn't have a copyright. Individual Mickey Mouse cartoons have copyrights. Each one has an entirely separate copyright.

      As to whether trademarks can protect things that are "public domain" or in common usage, consider this: Many trademarks are just combinations of English words. "Etch-a-sketch." How can that be a trademark? Those are three English words and I can etch a sketch for you right now, if you'd like.

      The key is that trademarks are marks that are employed in the practice of trade. The marks are used to define and differentiate practitioners in their trade -- exclusive use is granted so that I can let people know that I'm me, and you can let people know that you're you, but you can't all of a sudden start using my mark on your goods to confuse people and make them think you're me.

      When you register a trademark, you also have to tell the trademark office what you're registering it for. Just because you register the trademark "Lucky 7" and you sell Lucky 7 brand motor oil, that doesn't mean I can't sell Lucky 7 brand pillow cases if our other marks are sufficiently differentiated from one another. You would have to also register a tradmark in the area of pillow cases (or textiles or whatever the appropriate category might be) to stop me from doing that.

      I think it's reasonably safe to say that Disney has registered the likeness of the Mickey Mouse character for just about every category imaginable, however.

      So you've got a public domain Mickey Mouse cartoon. How can you sell it? Well, you can probably put a still from the cartoon on the front cover -- since the whole cartoon is public domain then it stands to reason that so is any individual still from the cartoon. You might not be able to use the phrase "Mickey Mouse" on the cover (it's probably trademarked), but you could use the title of the cartoon, most certainly. You probably couldn't use the Disney logo. But you could use your own logo, and your company could be called "Classic Toonz Unlimited," further explaining what the contents are. Obviously I'm pulling all this out of my ass, but these are the types of issues that might come up.

      Sound like a hassle? Sure. So, answer your own question -- even though the work you want to sell has gone out of copyright, do the trademarks still have value? Sounds like they do, to me.

      Also, even if an individual Mickey Mouse cartoon went public domain -- even if they all did -- that wouldn't give you the license to make brand-new Mickey Mouse cartoons. A copyright covers a particular expression of a particular work. It doesn't cover the idea of Mickey Mouse himself. Copyrights don't protect ideas, they protect expression. That one cartoon, either it's copyrighted or it's not. Even if

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
    15. Re:Mr. Lessig: Go get stuffed by arose · · Score: 1

      Stories aren't ideas nor concepts.

      --
      Analogies don't equal equalities, they are merely somewhat analogous.
  5. Rise, hippies! Rise!! by Almahtar · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Redirecting spending money from copyrighted content to independent artists releasing their work under the Creative Commons license is akin to becoming vegan/veggetarian: It requires willpower, it requires sometimes going for what is best when it's not what you want, and overall it's worth it. It's also doomed to failure in an instant gratification culture.

    It has my support, though, for what that's worth. I wish the idea the best of luck, and I gladly participate.

    1. Re:Rise, hippies! Rise!! by MrAndrews · · Score: 3, Interesting

      That's a big problem for the CC movement at the moment... it DOES require willpower for the average person to go "free". It's a lot easier in software, but entertainment is still the domain of the big players. And it's not really a valid argument that big companies are the only ones making good stuff... but they spend a lot of money to maintain the image that non-Big Label content is amateurish. You "hit it big" when you sign with a multinational company, and until then, you're just building your portfolio.

      Open source software folks are probably the best ones to realize the flaw in that argument, since by the same standards something like Linux would only be for amateurs. But still I think we all view indie content as necessarily lower-quality, which makes the whole thing a self-fulfilling prophecy... artists see no reason to be professional amateurs so they DO hold out for the big labels. We'd rather watch Firefly on DVD than support some of the cool things web artists (working under CC) want to do.

      If everyone that reads Slashdot pledged to spend $10 a month on CC content, I bet you'd see a lot more quality content emerge, and it'd require a lot less willpower to swear off copyrighted things completely.

    2. Re:Rise, hippies! Rise!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If everyone that reads Slashdot pledged to spend $10 a month on CC content, I bet you'd see a lot more quality content emerge, and it'd require a lot less willpower to swear off copyrighted things completely.

      Funny, it took me no money and no willpower at all to swear off copyrighted pr0^wcontent, just azureus and a little bit of time.

    3. Re:Rise, hippies! Rise!! by ChrisFedak · · Score: 1

      There's one subset of media that very quickly approaches a level of polish comparable to mainstream corporate, and that's music. I've been listening to strictly indy music for about 2 years now, and frankly, I haven't missed the stuff that RIAA has it's claws into at all. Only a small portion of it has been released under CC, but I think that might well change. A number of podcasts I listen to use the CC license as compromise to make independant artists more comfortable having their music digitally broadcast.

    4. Re:Rise, hippies! Rise!! by MrAndrews · · Score: 1

      But wouldn't you rather watch pr0^wcontent made by people you know?

      Actually... er... never mind. Carry on.

    5. Re:Rise, hippies! Rise!! by MrAndrews · · Score: 1

      This is another great example of why I think we need to make more (and more prominent) CC-only aggregators. It's stupid and frivolous, but a top 40 countdown of the best indie CC songs on the web, wrapped up in all the soulless glamour that the offline world embraces... it would probably help people make the transition, and give web artists a better chance at making a big impact. If artists saw a market in CC music online (which would involve web folks spending some money now and then), free content would become a lot more mainstream.

    6. Re:Rise, hippies! Rise!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Considering the people I know, I'd rather get to know those I watch than watch those I know. (Why does my captcha say "crotch"? Coincidence or /. playing with AIUI?)

    7. Re:Rise, hippies! Rise!! by poot_rootbeer · · Score: 1

      Redirecting spending money from copyrighted content to independent artists releasing their work under the Creative Commons license is akin to becoming vegan/veggetarian: It requires willpower, it requires sometimes going for what is best when it's not what you want, and overall it's worth it. It's also doomed to failure in an instant gratification culture.

      It also makes the assumption that creative works, like foods, are fungible; that any one is as good as any other. In neither case is this particularly true.

  6. More then Just Complaining, Lessig Rocks by Shihar · · Score: 5, Informative

    I had the pleasure of seeing Lessig speak a year ago. If you ever have the chance to see this man, do so. Even if you hate his message, he is an absolute god when it comes to speaking and presenting. His style of presentation has earned its own title of the "Lessig" style of presentation.

    While I am somewhat awed by Lessig's ability to present, my real admiration for him comes from how he has pursued his cause. Lessig argues for radical change in current laws. He is not the only person to argue for radical change. What makes Lessig different is that had has not only made attempts to work within law to bring about change, but he has gone even further and tried to implement what he advocates within a voluntary and completely legal manner without reliance on the force of government to enact the change that he seeks. Lots of people advocate some sort of radical change in society, but relatively few make a genuine attempt to bring about such change through methods other then complaining to the government to use the force of law.

    The Creative Commons is an incredible accomplishment. While the CC is in no danger of displacing current media, it has certainly started to make a dent. Will the CC ever make a dent large enough for the average Joe to really sit up and take notice without legislative change? Perhaps not, but what it has done is create an ecosystem to explore the 'fair use' world that Lessig envisions. Even those who find the watering down of copyright power revolting can not honestly proclaim any sort of mal-intent from creating a way for artists who want to offer their works to the public domain a simple and easily identifiable way to do so.

    I strongly encourage anyone who is even vaugly interested in this debate to check out Lessig's book, Free Culture. Keeping in tune with Lessig's philosophy on copyright, the book is freely available online. Some enterprising readers of the book also have a complete reading of the book in MP3 format. Check it out.

  7. Translation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "direct money they would spend on restricted content to organizations that support a fair use and free culture" = stop sending money to the RIAA and send it to us instead.

    "If the debate is controlled by lawyers" = Lessig is a lawyer. He just means the "right" lawyers.

    In other words, we would just trade one organizations lawyers for another organizations lawyers. Its just another money grab by a different lawyer.

    1. Re:Translation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      A man stomped into a bar, having made his way from the local courthouse. "LAWYERS ARE ASS HOLES!" he roared to no one in particular. Then someone in the back yelled, "Hey, I really resent that!"

      "Oh, are you a lawyer?", said the newcomer, preparing to tell his story.

      "No, I'm an asshole" was the reply.

  8. Just Give Me Copyright Sanity! by Shihar · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If I want to do a movie on Vampires, should I have to pay someone? You mess Lessig's point. Culture by definition builds upon its past. Vampires, elves, bad ass action heroes, our concept of aliens, formulaic romantic comedies, guitars, a generic punk sound, a whiny emo sound, and all other pieces of "entertainment" are all "mashups" in one way or another. All of the above exist ONLY because of culture that they were built upon. None of the above have any meaning to a stone aged tribal person living in the rainforest. These are not concepts that spring magically from the human mind. These are concepts that have evolved in our culture. Lessig's point is that we are stunting culture by following back every creative idea to its source and asking permission before we use it.

    If you had to go back and ask the originators punk if you could use their sound and they had an absolute veto over it, we might very well not have punk and all the other types of music that sprung from that branch in the musical tree. The same goes for more other examples. Today, you can merrily write about vampires without worry of a lawsuit, but if you try and write about another fictional villain, say a Star Wars Sith Lord, and you will find your ass sued into the ground. This SHOULD be troubling. Our ability to create new culture is being stunted by demanding that anyone wants to bud off of some other creative needs to ask the original authors permission. Instead of having an explosion of stories and mythos from worlds from our popular culture, we have tightly controlled and stunted versions.

    Further, even the most pro-copyright minded person MUST see the insanity of copyrights that last CENTURIES. Lessig doesn't argue for an end to copyright. He argues for some sort of sanity in it. Giving people copyrights that exists well past their death and then some is crazy. Dead artists don't need their works protected. If you want to use a Robert Frost poem, you damn well should be able to. The guy has been dead for almost half of a centaury yet you can still find your ass sued if you post one of his poems on the Internet.

    No matter what you think of copyright, you MUST agree that the current system is insane and needs fixing. Perhaps you might not want to take it as far as Lessig does, but you certainly must agree that a mean who died in 1949 doesn't need his work to continue to waste away under copyright protection.

    1. Re:Just Give Me Copyright Sanity! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      I can write a graphic novel or do a film about vampires, fictitious lords, cartoon mice, or almost anything I imagine BUT they'd better not be obvious copies of characters in works protected by copyright, and they better not be named after counterparts in copyrighted works (except for the purposes of parody which is fair use). That's no different than saying that I can start a techie news blog/forum to rival this one, but I'd better not call it "slashtech.com", and better not cut and paste large swatches of content that was originally published here, or I'd probably get a series of nasty emails from an OSTG-retained lawyer until I ceased and desisted.

      OK, you say, that's all part of running a business, as far as the last part goes. BUT that's exactly what the kind of unpleasant stuff that folks in the media business deal with every day - and their stake is much greater because their assets are primarily their content, as opposed to hosting a site to facilitate discussion.

    2. Re:Just Give Me Copyright Sanity! by Jerf · · Score: 2, Funny

      but if you try and write about another fictional villain, say a Star Wars Sith Lord, and you will find your ass sued into the ground.

      Yes, if you write about a Sith Lord.

      However, you can write about a guy that looks devilish, has wicked special powers with a vibro-sword due to his being specially attuned to the negative aspects of the universe, is an apprentice of another even badder bad dude, and is working on his skills with shooting lightning from his fingers.

      The only problem you'll face then is accusations of ripping the character off, but George isn't going to sue you.

      I mean, consider how many people could sue Lucas if it worked that way.

    3. Re:Just Give Me Copyright Sanity! by MrAndrews · · Score: 1

      If you were going to make a movie that was a direct copy of "Interview with the Vampire" except with slightly different names, I'd say that's a situation where the law should smack you in the face. If, on the other hand, you were to write a book about Lestat that branched out from the original story and made a whole new creation that enriches the character... if it were any good, I think it would be in the best interests of the producers that it was made. They might have a sequel on their hands. Right now, those things still go on, but the derivative authors are under constant threat they might get sued JUST FOR WRITING, not even selling things. Culture (and producers) get richer when creativity isn't held back by too many legalities.

    4. Re:Just Give Me Copyright Sanity! by 2muchcoffeeman · · Score: 1
      If you were going to make a movie that was a direct copy of "Interview with the Vampire" except with slightly different names, I'd say that's a situation where the law should smack you in the face. If, on the other hand, you were to write a book about Lestat that branched out from the original story and made a whole new creation that enriches the character... if it were any good, I think it would be in the best interests of the producers that it was made. Right now, those things still go on, but the derivative authors are under constant threat they might get sued JUST FOR WRITING, not even selling things.

      Anne Rice owns the rights to the character Lestat. If you get her permission, that's fine. But if you're trying to take her creation and make money with it without giving her what she's due ... well, "go away" covers it.

      "Derivative authors" ... right. I prefer to think of them as "authors who can't come up with interesting characters on their own." That's not copyright sanity you're advocating --- it's thievery.

      --
      Prevent Windows piracy. Use Linux instead.
    5. Re:Just Give Me Copyright Sanity! by geninstability · · Score: 1

      Today, you can merrily write about vampires without worry of a lawsuit, but if you try and write about another fictional villain, say a Star Wars Sith Lord, and you will find your ass sued into the ground. This SHOULD be troubling.

      Why should this be troubling? Dont get me wrong, I see your point on the insanity of century-long copyright, but I think you are missing an important difference between vampires and Sith Lords. IANASTE (I am not a Sith Lord expert) but they have been around for, what 10 - 20 years? No matter how you spin it, these characters are still under the limited monolpoly granted by copyright. George Lucas is being rewarded for putting in the effort to invent and develop Sith Lords by being granted this exclusive use. This is exactly what copyright is set up to do. Now, IANAVE (I am not a vampire expert) either, but I believe that vampires have been part of popular culture for many hundreds of years. The exclusive use rights on the concept have run out and the idea of vampires has reverted to the public domain. This is why George Lucas can sue my pants off for using his concepts but Ann Rice can't (unless my vamipre is named LeStat and won't come out of the closet).

      --
      I am Jack's inflamed sense of rejection
    6. Re:Just Give Me Copyright Sanity! by 14CharUsername · · Score: 1

      The problem with that is that you're changing someone else's characters and stories. If I wrote a book where Lestat became a vegetarian and it became popular, people would think that Lestat was a vegetarian nazi. Then when Anne Rice writes another book with Lestat doing the regular vampire things, people would be confused and complain of continuity problems and everything else. Or maybe people won't buy the next Anne Rice book because they aren't interested in vegetarian nazis. Of course it wasn't Anne Rice that writes about vegetarian nazis, it was someone else, but everyone now automatically associates the Lestat character with vegetarianism and nazism.

    7. Re:Just Give Me Copyright Sanity! by MrAndrews · · Score: 1
      Anne Rice owns the rights to the character Lestat. If you get her permission, that's fine. But if you're trying to take her creation and make money with it without giving her what she's due ... well, "go away" covers it.
      That's exactly it, though. Right now you can (and sometimes will) get sued just for writing about Lestat, regardless of whether or not you attempted to make money off it. If people felt free to explore tangents on other authors' works, some truly fantastic art might get made, and the original author would (hopefully, though apparently not in the case of OSC) happily authorize the commercial use of that work for a reasonable royalty fee. As it stands, a pool of revenue for authors is being denied because they are hoarding their copyright too tightly. Why, if they looked at it the way they look at filesharing systems, I think they'd have to sue themselves for lost revenue!

      "Derivative authors" ... right. I prefer to think of them as "authors who can't come up with interesting characters on their own." That's not copyright sanity you're advocating --- it's thievery.
      There are a lot of characters in popular culture that are really just slight variations on well-used themes. In most cases, it's not the character itself that makes a great work, it's the things the character does in the course of a story. Some people find it a lot easier to imagine fantastic new adventures for a character they've already become acquainted with, rather than coming up with one themselves. It doesn't lessen their artistic merit that they base their creativity on someone else's invention. If I wrote a story about Henry II of England, is my story trash because I didn't make him up?

      The idea is that authors are adding to the overall cultural memory of the world when they create. Lestat is part of our shared mythology, as it were. For a time, only Anne Rice can profit from his use. But the further exploration of the themes and elements of literature, art or drama is what moves Interview with the Vampire from transient "product" to cultural milestone. It's not thievery, it's enrichment.
    8. Re:Just Give Me Copyright Sanity! by MrAndrews · · Score: 1

      That's true, but that's a problem that doesn't really need an answer. Using copyright to control the public's perception of your work is probably doomed to failure. If the public really enjoyed a free book about Lestat the vegetarian nazi, then perhaps Anne Rice's interpretation isn't quite as valid anymore. It's not to say that you can earn any money from it without her permission... and if she really dislikes what you've done, she won't grant you the right to earn money... but if the world wants a vegetarian nazi vampire at the expense of the original Lestat, that's just the way the wind's blowing. I would imagine the next "regular vampire thing" book wouldn't sell well anyway. This is where we get down to the "the author doesn't have the right to income"... if you write something nobody enjoys, you won't get money for it. Really, sequels by the same author can be viewed as derivative works as well... the first may be fantastically popular, but if the climate has changed since it was published, there's nothing to say anyone NEEDS to praise the follow-up to the same extent. Authors might say otherwise, but they'd be buying into their own hype. Each work has to prove its own worth.

    9. Re:Just Give Me Copyright Sanity! by 14CharUsername · · Score: 1

      Ah, but what if I have a story with a long story arc that would span multiple books, lets say a trilogy? Once completed my trilogy would be the greatest works of literature evar. Only after I released part one some asshole comes along and makes a second part in which key characters are killed off, and controversial things happen. End result is that readers are turned against my trilogy through no fault of my own. I work long and hard to develop and interesting characters and setting only to have someone else come along and hijack these for their own mediocre story. Now the publisher isn't interested in the second or third parts of my trilogy because the market for it is totally gone. Net result parts 2 and 3 of the greatest trilogy ever don't get made.

      Yeah things have gotten out of hand with copyrights, but copyrights aren't totally evil. Not only do they protect bring an artist's income but they can also protect the integrity of their work. I'd say the best solution would be to have copyrights, but have them only last for about 15 years. It would give artists enough time to finish their work and make some money off of it, but would still free up stuff in a reasonable amount of time.

  9. "Free culture" vs "the alternative" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Unfortunately, proprietary culture is a much better tool for authoritarian, oligarchic, plutocratic* societies and the self-styled elites that favor them.

    The battle is, very likely, already lost.

    *Hmm, I think I mean 'Facist'

  10. Personal Thoughts by Distinguished+Hero · · Score: 1, Insightful
    Lessig says that, by today's standards, the simple act of creating a video mashup renders its creator a 'pirate' and argued for sweeping changes that would embrace a fair use culture.

    I suppose that the validity of that statement is rather dependent upon the jurisdiction under which you have chosen to live. As for the dire consequences of this particular example, I shall be hard pressed to lose much sleep; first of all, the statement only applies in those circumstances in which the creator of the video clip does not desire to allow you to use their product in such a manner; if one find such a practice objectionable, one is free (nay, encouraged) to go forth and produce more free content which one may then release under more permissive conditions. Surely society would be well served by an increase in the amount of original content facilitated by such a course of action. Furthermore, the primary valid reason which would prompt one to desire to create a "video mashup" would appear to be satire, which I believe is still protected under most jurisdictions irrespective of the wishes of the person whose work is being satirized; as such, I fail to notice the problem. In the unseemly circumstance that the owner of the work does not desire to allow their work to be satirized, and the jurisdiction under which one finds themselves actually cares about such matters, one is presented with two options: relocation, or the creation of satire without inclusion of the original subject matter in one's own work. Neither of these two options seem all that horrendous.

    Lessig asked the audience to consider sharing works under a Creative Commons license and redirect money they would spend on restricted content to organizations that support a fair use and free culture.

    Both of those appear to be reasonable courses of actions; I am impressed with the apparent understanding of both the philosophy of individual liberty and the workings of the free market exhibited by this individual.

    He says that opponents of a free read-write culture have strong financial and political backing so unified community support is crucial.

    I am unfamiliar with the finer nuances of the English language. When one refers to an entire group ("opponents"), without using an adjective such as "some," does one imply that the rest of the sentence applies to every person belonging to that group? Can one be a proponent of "free read-write culture" without having strong financial and political (whatever that means) backing? If I were to become a supporter of "free read-write culture," would I instantaneously receive "strong financial and political backing?" Is the intention to imply that one cannot be a proponent of the ideology espoused by this individual by one's own convictions, but rather, only by having some sort of sinister motive or receiving a large cash payoff?

    'If the debate is controlled by lawyers and lobbyists...," says Lessig, 'this debate will be lost.'"

    How can a debate be controlled by "lawyers and lobbyists," and even if such a thing was possible, how would this lead to the loss of the debate? If you have truth and reason on your side, you shall surely win the debate if both parties are allowed to express themselves. That being said, one may surely lose the battle of having one's ideas implemented by law, but seeing as the two ideas mentioned by the individual above were matters of individual choice and working within the free market, I fail to see what "lawyers and lobbyists" have to do with anything. After all, neither lobbyists nor lawyers shall prevent free citizens from "sharing works under a Creative Commons license and redirect money they would spend on restricted content to organizations that support a fair use and free culture" as long as the citizens in questions can be referred to as free.
    --
    Uttering logically derived and empirically supported truths to the disciples of the orthodox establishment.
    1. Re:Personal Thoughts by Distinguished+Hero · · Score: 1

      How ghastly! Perusing my post, I have come upon the horrendous realization that I seem to have misspoken in one of my paragraphs; perhaps I should retire for the night, but before I do, please allow me the opportunity to correct the aforementioned paragraph, which I shall now include:
      I am unfamiliar with the finer nuances of the English language. When one refers to an entire group ("opponents"), without using an adjective such as "some," does one imply that the rest of the sentence applies to every person belonging to that group? Can one be an opponent of "free read-write culture" without having strong financial and political (whatever that means) backing? If I were to become an opponent of "free read-write culture," would I instantaneously receive "strong financial and political backing?" Is the intention to imply that one cannot be an opponent of the ideology espoused by this individual by one's own convictions, but rather, only by having some sort of sinister motive or receiving a large cash payoff?

      --
      Uttering logically derived and empirically supported truths to the disciples of the orthodox establishment.
    2. Re:Personal Thoughts by dwandy · · Score: 1
      How can a debate be controlled by "lawyers and lobbyists," and even if such a thing was possible, how would this lead to the loss of the debate? If you have truth and reason on your side, you shall surely win the debate if both parties are allowed to express themselves.
      Y'all ain't from these here parts, are ya?
      --
      If you think imaginary property and real property are the same, when does your house become public domain?
    3. Re:Personal Thoughts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The contents of your posts appear to consist of possible alternate interpretations of the linguistic semantics rather than comments on the ideas which they are intended to represent. While a potentially interesting excercise, I'm not certain how your posts contribute in any way to the discussion. Comic relief aside, of course.

    4. Re:Personal Thoughts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am unfamiliar with the finer nuances of the English language.

      Yes, your English sucks. And you asked a stupid question. But hey, you're in the right place for stupid questions, and you even have your own slashdot account. Dude, you rock!

  11. Lessig is subsidized by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    You have to remember, however, that Lessig is able to be "generous" because he is "subsidized." In other words, as a professor, he draws a hefty salary (typically over $100,000 annually) with low health insurance rates , and anything else is gravy. In addition, he has retirement pension and benefits.

    However, if you are a screenwriter or an author or independent artist, you don't necessarily have the luxury of giving away your creative works for free, because that IS your livelihood, and you are probably working on it 24 hours a day, whether conciously or subconsiously (i.e. thinking about it even while you are sleeping). An artist may have a lot of success now, but the artist's next work may be a failure and lose money. Buying independent health insurance can cost about $175 per month alone. Plus an independent artist will not necessarily have retirement fund with matching employer contributions as Lessig has.

    Lessig is passionate about free stuff because it benefits HIM, not artists. He stands everything to GAIN, and nothing to lose, plus he's getting paid for it. Giving away his book for free is just part of the charade.

    1. Re:Lessig is subsidized by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      I'm always amused how practically none of the people who are enthusiastic about free sharing of copyrighted material have created any memorable works of art that are still in high demand. Instead, the charge is led by bloggers and lawyers... great, they won't have much problem if I copy the stuff they dashed off on the spur of the moment in reaction to some news or opinion piece, just like what I'm writing here. That's mighty generous that they may be willing (possibly with some restrictions, but we'll let that slide) to let us copy those precious insights, but I think I'll pass on the offer. What Lessig does is not art and it's not literature. It's just more lawyering in a country that greatly overcompensates its lawyers.

      Then we have a few aging rock or folk musicians like Janis Ian are trying to re-establish their connection with fans (woo-hoo! so I can download "At seventeen"!). But how about the Rolling Stones, Beatles, Led Zeppelin, Radiohead, big guns like that who are still selling lots of albums. You don't see it.

    2. Re:Lessig is subsidized by gomoX · · Score: 1

      Man, I just don't know where to start. Lessig is a visionary and he is working so that you can benefit from other people's desire to share and cooperate. Who the hell cares about his health insurance??? No one is forcing you to give away your work. CC licenses allow you to share your work under more permissive licenses if and only if *you* feel like it.

      Thank god at least one in a few thousand people like this are subsidized so that anyone can actually afford to think instead of going to work inside a cubicle every freaking day. What's wrong with that?

      --
      My english is sow-sow. Sowhat?
    3. Re:Lessig is subsidized by kchrist · · Score: 1
      I'm always amused how practically none of the people who are enthusiastic about free sharing of copyrighted material have created any memorable works of art that are still in high demand.

      Might I suggest you familiarize yourself with the free/open source software community?
  12. Keynote? by amliebsch · · Score: 2, Insightful

    FTFH: Lessig Defends Free Culture in Keynote

    If he's going to be defending "Free Culture," then shouldn't he really be doing it in Impress and not Keynote???

    --
    If you don't know where you are going, you will wind up somewhere else.
    1. Re:Keynote? by reverius · · Score: 1

      Stop modding this "Insightful", people. It's not that kind of Keynote.

  13. How far does "idea protection" go? by Infonaut · · Score: 1

    This is the real question.

    For example: Do you think that the original Battlestar Galactica TV show constituted theft of the ideas in Star Wars? Did Lucas steal the plot of Kurusawa's Hidden Fortress?

    The problem with your interpretation is that plot ideas, characters, and so on do not spring from a whole cloth out of the author's mind, unaided by the culture and society in which the author lives. James Joyce couldn't have written Ulysses were it not for Homer's Odyssey. How could schools of artistic expression spring up unless one artist was taking and expanding upon the ideas of others? Placing inordinate barriers on creativity ultimately thwarts economic growth as well as the vitality of a culture.

    I don't have a problem with copyright. I do have a problem with the persistent belief that creative works are the same as tables or bicycles or computers. They are not. The Constitution created copyright as a spur to creativity, *not* as a means of equating the intellectual property inherent in a creative work with the real property in a plot of land. Copyright is an artificial, legal construct.

    Copyright exists "To Promote the Progress of Science and the Useful Arts" not to serve as a perpetual income machine for writers and artists.

    --
    Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
    1. Re:How far does "idea protection" go? by 2muchcoffeeman · · Score: 1
      Do you think that the original Battlestar Galactica TV show constituted theft of the ideas in Star Wars?
      Bad choice of reference. Now, if you had chosen the Book of Mormon instead of Star Wars, you'd have been more accurate.
      --
      Prevent Windows piracy. Use Linux instead.
    2. Re:How far does "idea protection" go? by Infonaut · · Score: 1

      Bad choice of reference.

      Ask Fox what they think. They sued the creators of the original Battlestar Galactica for copyright infringement, saying that BG ripped off from Star Wars. My point was that all art is derivative to at least some degree. It is never wholly original.

      Given that you think BG stole from the Book of Mormon, should the Mormon Church sue the creators of BG?

      --
      Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
    3. Re:How far does "idea protection" go? by 2muchcoffeeman · · Score: 1
      Ask Fox what they think. They sued the creators of the original Battlestar Galactica for copyright infringement, saying that BG ripped off from Star Wars.

      And Universal filed a countersuit against Fox, claiming Star Wars stole ideas from the film Silent Running .

      Given that you think BG stole from the Book of Mormon, should the Mormon Church sue the creators of BG?

      The Book of Mormon (which Glen Larson grabbed from in a wholesale manner) isn't copyrighted material, to the best of my knowledge. Glen Larson also took from the Aeneid, which again isn't copyrighted.

      A lot of my objection goes back to the concept of permission. If the originating author gives his permission (and with most authors I know, that permission wouldn't be granted without a rigorous review of the manuscript to make sure that A| it fits with previously-established canon, B| it fits with what the author has planned for the character and C| the writing is of high-enough quality to do right by the character and the works of the originating author), then there shouldn't be a problem. But if somebody wants to take David Weber's Honor Harrington universe and do whatever he or she wants ... sorry, but that's just not right.

      And yes, that includes fanfic.

      --
      Prevent Windows piracy. Use Linux instead.
  14. FOSP by Anonumous+Coward · · Score: 1

    Are you suggesting community-driven open-source collaborative pr0n development? The idea is appealing, but sourceforge might find it appalling. The "release early, release often" rule would apply just perfect though...

  15. Mr. 2muchcoffeman: Go get stuffed by BoberFett · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I'd be more sympathetic with copyright holders if they weren't such hypocrites. Much of modern copyright issues can be traced to the Disney corporation. Extensions on copyright are directly linked to the expiration of copyright on Mickey Mouse.

    Disney has made billions upon billions of dollars using the "intellectual property" of long dead authors. Do you really think Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty, Pinocchio, or any of other stories that built the Disney empire were dreamed up by Disney themselves? That didn't stop them from using the material. Where was their concern for the "protection" of ideas back then?

    Walt Disney is every bit as dead as Hans Christian Anderson, yet if I tried to sell a story about Mickey Mouse I'd have about one week before I found myself assaulted by Disney's legal department. Why is one protected and not the other?

    1. Re:Mr. 2muchcoffeman: Go get stuffed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey! Walt Disney isn't dead, he's just resting.

    2. Re:Mr. 2muchcoffeman: Go get stuffed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Once upon a time, there was a sad, sad little scared mouse named Mickey Mouse. He had just escaped the evil dungeons of Evil Dr. Copper Aight. However, the forest had been corrupted by the Castle of Dr. Aight and he found himself captured once again. To Disney Legal Team: Please send your legal notices and other toiletries to Post Office Box 10000 Lake Buena Vista, FL 32830, SeaWorld Orlando.

    3. Re:Mr. 2muchcoffeman: Go get stuffed by MrAndrews · · Score: 1

      Dude, you totally ripped off the wording to my next book! Have you been reading my email again? I've gotta change my password...

    4. Re:Mr. 2muchcoffeman: Go get stuffed by mhollis · · Score: 1

      These animated characters are trademarked, not "copyrighted." The Disney version of these stories are copyrighted, as are most books.

      You are completely allowed to reinterpret the generally available fairy tales that Disney has made millions from. You are not allowed to use Disney's trademarked characters to tell your story.

      It's kind of like what would happen were you (or someone) to steal the formula for Coca-Cola. You can make a batch of soft drink, but you cannot use the Coca-Cola's trademarked bottle, nor their trademarked script to sell your soft drink. And, because you cannot do that, you could never hope to really challenge that company in the marketplace (and I'll bet people would claim that your soft drink tastes different than Coke).

      Were you to publish an account of your war with Disney (to use an example) and then to die, your inheritors (and/or estate) would have a right to continue to publish your account and make a profit off of it. A great example of this is Charles Schulz's Peanuts characters which are, today, published daily as Peanuts Classics in newspapers, even though "Sparky" Schulz (Stanley Applebaum) passed away, the last original Peanuts strip published on 3 January, 2000. Schulz, in his will, demanded that there be no new strip creation after his death. His family and his estate both make a lot of money from this popular comic. His characters are trademarked. His strip is copyrighted.

      --
      Gods don't kill people, people with gods kill people.
  16. Corporate music as background noise by tepples · · Score: 1
    I've been listening to strictly indy music for about 2 years now

    How do you avoid Muzak and other brands of corporate music played as background noise in grocery stores, on some public transportation, in medical clinic waiting rooms, at the office etc?

    1. Re:Corporate music as background noise by bky1701 · · Score: 1

      Ear plugs? Yelling "LALALALALALALALALALA"? Wait... "LALALALALALALALALALA" is probably copyrighted. Nevermind...

    2. Re:Corporate music as background noise by ChrisFedak · · Score: 1

      Thankfully, the elevators here don't have music piped into them, but you're right, I can't avoid hearing RIAA owned music in the big city I live in, but I can (and do) avoid paying for it.

  17. Accidental copying by tepples · · Score: 1
    I suppose that the validity of that statement is rather dependent upon the jurisdiction under which you have chosen to live.

    Am I given a choice, or do the other 99.999999% of the voting population choose for me?

    the statement only applies in those circumstances in which the creator of the video clip does not desire to allow you to use their product in such a manner; if one find such a practice objectionable, one is free (nay, encouraged) to go forth and produce more free content

    Not so fast. There exist companies that own exclusive rights in millions of works of authorship. If you accidentally copy part of one of those works into one of your own works, you are a copyright infringer. Such copying is inevitable.

    Furthermore, the primary valid reason which would prompt one to desire to create a "video mashup" would appear to be satire, which I believe is still protected

    Parody is protected; satire isn't.

    one is presented with two options: relocation

    With the increasing crackdown on illegal immigration without expansion of legal immigration, how is international relocation feasible?

    or the creation of satire without inclusion of the original subject matter in one's own work.

    Given only the contents of a work, how can I determine whether it has been accidentally copied from an existing copyrighted work?

    I am impressed with the apparent understanding of both the philosophy of individual liberty and the workings of the free market exhibited by this individual.

    Free market? Copyright opposes the free market, as it is a government grant of monopoly.

    neither lobbyists nor lawyers shall prevent free citizens from "sharing works under a Creative Commons license"

    If I cannot confirm the lack of copyright in the string of notes that make up the melody of my song, I cannot lawfully publish it under a Free Art License or any Creative Commons license.

    1. Re:Accidental copying by Distinguished+Hero · · Score: 1

      Am I given a choice, or do the other 99.999999% of the voting population choose for me?

      Yes, you are given a choice as to where you desire to live. The only manner in which the voting population of your current country could limit that choice would be if they decided to completely seal off the country and not allow anyone to leave (as was done in many Eastern Bloc countries during the Cold War, though that was definitely without the consent of the citizenry).

      If you accidentally copy part of one of those works into one of your own works, you are a copyright infringer.

      How exactly does one go about "accidentally copying part" of a work; I suppose it may make some sense if one refers to music, but aside from that, such an event could hardly occur, and frankly, if your work consists simply of "accidentally copied parts," it is hardly adding anything of value.

      With the increasing crackdown on illegal immigration without expansion of legal immigration, how is international relocation feasible?

      In which countries do you see an "increasing crackdown on illegal immigration?" You and I appear to be inhabiting two different worlds, though I hold my world to be built upon a slightly stronger foundation in reality. As for your inquiry as to how international relocation is feasible, allow me to ensure you that it is rather feasible. In fact, international relocation is now easier than at any other point in history, and as a result, we are seeing population migrations the likes of which have not been experienced since the collapse of the Western Roman Empire. With the decline in western birth rates and the desire of socialist western government to keep their socialist Ponzi schemes alive through whatever means necessary (in this case, a large influx of immigrants), as well as the prevalent ideology of multiculturalism, international relocation is extremely feasible (as long as you are not a completely useless human being, and even that should not be much of an impediment). Recently, major western cities have been filling up with large amounts of immigrants from the third and second world (myself included), so my theory as to the ease of international relocation appears to be well supported; in fact, the only western country probably not affected by this trend at the moment is Japan, and frankly, I doubt the only country that you are willing to relocate to happens to be Japan.

      Given only the contents of a work, how can I determine whether it has been accidentally copied from an existing copyrighted work?

      "Given only the contents of the work," "accidentally copied"? What are you talking about? I was clearly referring to "the creation of satire without inclusion of the original subject matter in one's own work" as you so kindly quoted me.

      Free market? Copyright opposes the free market, as it is a government grant of monopoly.

      I was referring to the the proposal by Mr. Lessig. Please do not attempt to pervert my words; however, as you brought up the subject, I suppose I may be persuaded to address it (even though it is completely tangential). Copyright is not "a government grant of monopoly" in the sense that a patent is a government grant of monopoly. The probability that two individuals will come up with the exact same work, without one stealing ideas from the other, is extremely small in matters where copyright has any bearing, especially when compared to matters where patents have a bearing. Instead, copyright is designed to allow the person who provided the large fixed cost to amortize the cost even though the marginal cost of production is near zero; otherwise, those who do not product the work shall always have an advantage over those who do as they do not have to amortize the large fixed cost, and can instead make a profit from simply selling other peoples work (as their own personal fixed cost for e

      --
      Uttering logically derived and empirically supported truths to the disciples of the orthodox establishment.
    2. Re:Accidental copying by tepples · · Score: 1
      The only manner in which the voting population of your current country could limit that choice would be if they decided to completely seal off the country and not allow anyone to leave

      So how do I find the money to leave? And what country outside of Berne is developed enough that I don't lose more in press freedom than I gain by escaping the corruption of copyright?

      How exactly does one go about "accidentally copying part" of a work; I suppose it may make some sense if one refers to music

      And I am in fact talking about music. Even if I'm talking about movies, I'm also talking about music, as virtually all post-1930 feature films include at least some music.

      if your work consists simply of "accidentally copied parts," it is hardly adding anything of value.

      So how do I know whether my work adds anything of value before I publish it and run the risk of being sued for more than my net worth?

      "Given only the contents of the work," "accidentally copied"? What are you talking about?

      I am talking about writing a song and wanting to determine whether or not publishing it is safe under the copyright law in effect in all members of the Berne Union.

      Copyright is not "a government grant of monopoly" in the sense that a patent is a government grant of monopoly. The probability that two individuals will come up with the exact same work, without one stealing ideas from the other, is extremely small in matters where copyright has any bearing

      Judges do not care about "the exact same work". They care about "substantial similarity", and copyright cases have been won and lost over as few as four notes. The case I often use as an example, Bright Tunes Music v. Harrisongs Music, was fought over a string of eight notes from the pentatonic scale, and there are only 390,625 unique possibilities for that.

      As you are opposed to government granted monopolies, are you then in favour of DRM, a method by which copyright holders can protect their investment without having to suckle at the teat of government?

      I oppose only the expansion of the scope and duration of copyrights over the past century, which in my opinion have corrupted the purpose of copyright.

      One should note that people seem to still be able to copyright music, so the fault (if it exists) does not seem to lie with copyright itself.

      It could be that all the major labels have made a secret covenant amongst themselves not to sue one another over petty copyright matters but only to sue independents who start to make money. It's a chilling effect nonetheless.

  18. Lessig needs to rant less and lobby more by Animats · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Lessig is starting to sound like Stallman. Stallman is more effective, though. What we need is some serious lobbying, along the following lines:

    • Copyright harmonization The US should not go beyond the 50 years of the TRIPS agreement. 50 years from first publication, copyright expires. That's it. Free Elvis! (The US can do that unilaterally. Less than 50 years requires international negotiation.)
    • Make copy protection illegal for uncopyrightable material If you can't copyright it, you can't use technical means to protect it.
    • Enforce the Audio Home Recording Act Any arrangement between manufacturers and/or content distributors to restrict rights guaranteed to consumers is illegal restraint of trade.
    • Free spectrum, free content If it goes out over the free airwaves, like TV channels for which broadcasters do not pay, it can't be copy protected.
    Now that's a reasonable agenda to lobby for.
    1. Re:Lessig needs to rant less and lobby more by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 1

      Pft. That's totally unreasonable.

      Copyright harmonization The US should not go beyond the 50 years of the TRIPS agreement. 50 years from first publication, copyright expires. That's it. Free Elvis! (The US can do that unilaterally. Less than 50 years requires international negotiation.)

      Actually, the US should abandon all copyright treaties. That, we can also do unilaterally. Copyright harmonization isn't even a good idea. Each country should decide how much copyright, in terms of length and scope, is best for their own people. So long as any given author is not precluded from getting copyrights in all the jurisdictions where his work is copyrightable, nothing more needs to be done. And n.b. that that doesn't mean that formalities can't exist, just that they can't be mutually incompatable.

      Make copy protection illegal for uncopyrightable material If you can't copyright it, you can't use technical means to protect it.

      I don't think that this would be constitutional given the First Amendment. OTOH, it would certainly be constitutional to deny copyrights for copyrightable material that was copy protected by or under the authorization of the copyright holder. And it would also be constitutional for it to be legal to break copy protection, and for the government to assist or fund efforts to do so, and to help distribute copies of the thus-uncopyrighted works to the public.

      Enforce the Audio Home Recording Act Any arrangement between manufacturers and/or content distributors to restrict rights guaranteed to consumers is illegal restraint of trade.

      That's not how the AHRA works.

      Free spectrum, free content If it goes out over the free airwaves, like TV channels for which broadcasters do not pay, it can't be copy protected.

      See above re: copy protection generally resulting in a forfeiting of copyright.

      And we'll also need shorter and more granular terms, to re-strengthen formalities (registration, deposit, notice, frequent renewal), to shore up work made for hire and transfer provisions, broad exceptions for works involving computers and for the public, making certain classes of works uncopyrightable (such as architectural works, fonts and typefaces, clothing designs and costumes, hulls, etc.), to expand the government works provision, to make first sale more uniform, etc.

      Basically, anything that stops short of making copyright such that it best serves the public interest is just not good enough. Don't set your sights low.

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    2. Re:Lessig needs to rant less and lobby more by Animats · · Score: 1
      Pft. That's totally unreasonable.

      Actually, the US should abandon all copyright treaties.

      That's probably out of reach politically, and it's not even a good idea, but scaling back to the 50 years of TRIPS might be within reach. Few works have significant commercial value after 50 years. Maybe put in a renewal provision that allows renewal after 50 years for $10,000/year, to keep Disney happy. This would allow a smooth flow of old content into the public domain.

      I don't think that this ("Make copy protection illegal for uncopyrightable material") would be constitutional given the First Amendment.

      To the extent that such copy protection required collusion between the content distributor and the player manufacturer, it could be made illegal under the commerce clause.

      Free spectrum, free content If it goes out over the free airwaves, like TV channels for which broadcasters do not pay, it can't be copy protected.

      See above re: copy protection generally resulting in a forfeiting of copyright.

      The format of broadcasts is controlled in great detail by the FCC; certainly they can forbid copy protection. In fact, they forbade over the air pay TV decades ago.

      And we'll also need shorter and more granular terms, to re-strengthen formalities (registration, deposit, notice, frequent renewal).

      The TRIPS agreement forbids "formalities", so that's out without WTO negotiation.

    3. Re:Lessig needs to rant less and lobby more by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 1

      That's probably out of reach politically, and it's not even a good idea

      We'll have to work on it politically, but anything's possible. I fail to see why you think it's a bad idea, however.

      Few works have significant commercial value after 50 years.

      Actually, few works have significant commercial value ever. Of those few, fewer still have significant commercial value after a few months of publication in any given medium. Of those, fewer yet still have significant commercial value after a few years. Almost nothing has significant commercial value after fifty years.

      Of course, who the hell cares. The incentive given to authors through copyright only should be the minimum possible commercial value that will get the author to create the work. If an author will write a book if they think they'll make $10,000 from it, it's just stupid to try to give them $100,000. And if they'll do it for free, giving them a copyright at all is a completely bad idea. Trying to set up a continuing revenue stream for authors -- for a teeny tiny fraction of a percent of authors, that is -- is not at all the object of copyright.

      To the extent that such copy protection required collusion between the content distributor and the player manufacturer, it could be made illegal under the commerce clause.

      I suppose that it could be construed as being anticompetitive, but I think that on the whole First Amendment considerations should prevail. Which still doesn't mean that we have to give them copyrights on DRMed works or make it illegal to break the DRM.

      The format of broadcasts is controlled in great detail by the FCC;

      I'd rather reduce the authority of the FCC.

      The TRIPS agreement forbids "formalities", so that's out without WTO negotiation.

      And that's another good reason to throw TRIPS and other copyright treaties into the trash, where they belong.

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
  19. Pron On Tap by Kadin2048 · · Score: 1

    But wouldn't you rather watch pr0^wcontent made by people you know?

    Duh ... that's what XTube is for.

    --
    "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
  20. Artists rights as usual forgotten by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Rant on.

    Mashups are not fair use for the artist unless the artist releases the work for use as a mashup. If you create a mashup you *are* infringing a copyright -- AND more importantly, a moral and ethical right. The creator of a work has the right to ensure that that work is only seen in a form which the creator approves of. If the artist releases it for use in a mashup, fine. If not, it is not yours to play with. Just because it is easy to steal material and make a mashup does not mean it should be legal. It's easy to spit on people in the street and scratch your keys down someone's door; doesn't mean it should be legal.

    And don't tell me there's 'no harm' in it. If I am an artist and you misrepresent my work, you are harming my reputation. You might scare off potential customers, whatever. Even if you label the work as derivative, people seeing will still use it, consciously or not, to help form an opinion on the underlying art.

    You could argue that the extra exposure might benefit an artist. BUT it is THEIR choice if they chase that extra exposure or not, not a mashup artist's choice.

    A lot of internet discussion revolves around the user's rights, the big fat corporations trying to protect their wallets, all that emotional crap. THe actualt creators, off which 99% of the web feeds like a parasite, get squashed between the two.

    Rant off.

    1. Re:Artists rights as usual forgotten by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      In an ideal world, artistic integrity would not take a backseat to the desires of content hoarders. This isn't that world. The problem that we have now is actually created by copyright. The duration of copyright makes the accumulation of copyrighted material desirable. Entities exist entirely to hoard this form of IP, taking as many rights for the content from the artists as is practiceable. Once they own the rights, they can do anything with the content. This includes displaying the content in ways that the artist does not agree with, as well as preventing its distribution.

      Were copyright limited to a reasonable amount of time, corporations would have neither the desire nor the ability to hoard older material. Indeed, there would be more of an incentive to locate newer, more adventurous material. Material that comes from a wider pool of smaller artists. The fact is, artists are competing commercially with copyrighted material created 50+ years ago, and will continue to do so unless copyright laws are corrected.

    2. Re:Artists rights as usual forgotten by grimJester · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The creator of a work has the right to ensure that that work is only seen in a form which the creator approves of.

      So, how does the fact that all rights are signed away to a record label or film studio impact this? The "rights of the artist" seems to be a fallacy that the holders of copyrights use to motivate widening and extension of copyright.

      What happens if the copyright holder and the original creator of a work disagree on whether someone can create a derivative work? The artist has a right to decide how his work is seen? No.

      The creator of a work has no rights. The copyright holder does. These two are seldom the same.

    3. Re:Artists rights as usual forgotten by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The creator of a work has the right to ensure that that work is only seen in a form which the creator approves of.

      Really? So, this post would be illegal under your view, because I can't quote you to argue against your point?

      The first person to discover an idea has NO ethical right to control what other people choose to do with that idea. We have FREE SPEECH. That's important. Let me say it again. We have, and we need, FREE SPEECH. The rights of a discoveror (or "creator", in your abuse of language) do NOT dissolve the rights of others, and must not. The right to speak and think freely is more important than granting some twit an "incentive" to do something he'll do anyway; be creative, like humans worth of the name are: by both nature and by nurture.

      If I am an artist and you misrepresent my work, you are harming my reputation

      You don't own "your" reputation. Other people grant it to you, by their choice, not yours; rationally or irrationally, at their sole discression. I have the right to change other people's opinions of you, to argue against you, and to even suggest that you are wrong. You don't and shouldn't have the right to silence me.

      Don't try to steal my freedom of speech just because you thought of some shiny new idea that you think the rest of the world shouldn't be entitled to.

  21. the charge is led by bloggers and lawyers. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    Another "Anonymous Coward" wrote:
    I'm always amused how practically none of the people who are enthusiastic about free sharing of copyrighted material have created any memorable works of art that are still in high demand. Instead, the charge is led by bloggers and lawyers... great, they won't have much problem if I copy the stuff they dashed off on the spur of the moment in reaction to some news or opinion piece, just like what I'm writing here. That's mighty generous that they may be willing (possibly with some restrictions, but we'll let that slide) to let us copy those precious insights, but I think I'll pass on the offer. What Lessig does is not art and it's not literature. It's just more lawyering in a country that greatly overcompensates its lawyers.


    Yep, exactly what I was thinking, but you said it better than I could(from one AC to another). I can't give you "mod" points for obvious reasons, but I wanted to give you positive feedback and encouragement. We're outnumbered on this board, but we need to make our voices heard now and in the future; AC or not, doesn't matter. Cheers, mate!
    1. Re:the charge is led by bloggers and lawyers. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Now, this reply won't be eloquent, well-articulated, or even have a well-made point to it, but the first reaction that came to mind when I read your reply to the parent, as well as the parent itself, was a mental version of *puke* - pure and simple.

      Sorry about that, but that's the truth.

  22. It mostly does not benefit creators by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Copyright exists "To Promote the Progress of Science and the Useful Arts" not to serve as a perpetual income machine for writers and artists.

    The current abuse of copyright does not mainly benefit writers and artists, it benefits large corporations. How did George Orwell benefit by having the copyright on 1984 extended from 2024 to forever? The author died in 1950!

  23. He's dead wrong by Builder · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Mr Card is absolutely wrong. You do not have to defend your copyright, only your trademarks. If any of these characters is trademarked, then he has to act in every case where he becomes aware of infringment. See the recent posts about Google trying to stop people using their name as a verb.

    Trademarks must be defended. Patents and copyrights don't.

    Interesting to see that OSC would sue over something he obviously doesn't understand. Hopefully his lawyers would stop him.

    It's also interesting to see an artist crave that life + 70 year bullshit. He seems more interested in leaving his family money than in contributing to the shared culture of the world. Sad... I expected more of him :(

    1. Re:He's dead wrong by BootNinja · · Score: 1

      I know what you mean. It's at least half the reason that I stopped buying his books.

    2. Re:He's dead wrong by KDR_11k · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I'd put my money on his publisher ('s lawyers) intentionally feeding him lies so he prevents fan works from competing with any sequels.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
  24. Hear Hear .... by NoSalt · · Score: 0

    I COMPLETELY agree with him!

    I mean ... GOD FORBID ... if some teenager, or adult for that matter, lipsync or dance to a popular song or play-act with a popular movie or TV show. If they were charging money and calling the work 100% original then that would be one thing, but to show the world that you obviously enjoy that piece of media, for FREE nonetheless, seems to be a win-win situation for everybody.

    All I can say is that if this continues, you had better watch out what is playing in the background when you leave somebody a voicemail ... if it is copyrighted then it will be off to the pokey for you!!!

  25. He did the same talk at Wikimania by greenreaper · · Score: 1

    He also used a really funky "one slide per emphasized word" method of presentation that David Weinberger took great pleasure in parodying in his own talk two days later. :-)

  26. Artists rights as usual misinterpreted by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    You have a sad view of the world, that you think artists have some sort of ultimate right over how people view their work. Artists can expect a certain moral right that people will not plagiarize their works, but an idea is an idea. If I tell you an idea, I don't have any right to control what you then do with that idea. If I don't want you to misinterpret my idea, my sole recourse is to not tell you in the first place. (Particularly, if you're selling a work in exchange for money, you've just sold something. You should no longer expect to have complete control. If you want complete control, don't sell it.)

    Derivative works happen all the time, especially for works in the public domain. Disney makes cartoons based on classic fairy tales (Snow White, Cinderella, etc). Should they need permission from the Grimms Brothers estate, because they may not be preserving their artisitic vision? "Clueless" is basically an updated "Emma". Do you think Jane Austen is rolling over in her grave? Some works are not out of copyright, and have attracted lawsuits, like "The Wind Done Gone" vs. "Gone With The Wind". Should Leonardo DaVinci's descendants have the right to complain about the Mona Lisa's frame? Should MAD Magazine be banned, since a parody (a form of derivative work) may convince me that some subpar movie just isn't worth watching?

    Luckily, copyright in the US is not intended to protect any sort of "creative right". We can only hope it never will.

  27. Copyright was originally 7 years...... by Kodack · · Score: 1


    Copyright law in this country is stacked firmly in favor of the copyright owners.

    When our founding fathers developed the idea of licensing intellectual property it was originally for 7 years of exclusivity, after which it was public domain.

    Then we began to allow people to renew their copyright for a few more years. And then hollywood began to manipulate the law makers with lobbyists and more and more time began being added until it was a lifetime copyright, and then up to 70 years after the persons death.

    And then they started allowing corporations to own copyrights, and since a corporation doesn't die, neither does their copyright. They also began the process of "auto renewing" copyrights whether the original author wanted to or not.

    This caused a huge problem when works like documentaries on the civil rights movement, where the original copyright owner could not be located, that efectively locked the work out of the public eye.

    There are thousands of orphaned works like that and since their copyrights are kept locked up indefinately after being abandoned, nobody can use them.

    So we go from 7 years to lifetime +80 years. Basicly every time Mickey Mouse gets close to being public domain, Disney lobbyists get the deadline extended. The last of these was the Sonny Bono act that extended copyrights out even farther.

    Look, nothing is created in a vacume. If you write a book, or a movie, or paint something, you didn't come up with all of that yourself. You had influences from other artists, from the public. There is nothing new out there, everything is based upon the work of somebody else. And if we lock everything up and use copyright as an excuse to NEVER release it back to the public then it ends up crippling the next generation of artists and innovators.

    Imagine what music would be like if everything by Mozart and Bach, and other classical artists was still copyright. A lot of people don't realize it but the Happy birthday song is copyright and every time it's used in a movie they have to license it.

    It was not the intention of the founding fathers of this country for works of art to remain privatized for hundreds of years. They felt that 7 years was enough, and that after that it should become public domain. This cycle of creativity is what creates new art and new artists, and if people are stingy with their art and don't give back, after taking so much, then no new art is created.

    I utterly reject the concept of unlimited copyrights and the rampant lawsuits for sampling other peoples music, mashing up videos, making mosaics of photographs, or any of the other things that limit an artists creative freedoms.

  28. Lobby *how*? by RareButSeriousSideEf · · Score: 1

    I would love to see all that come to pass, but come on... how on earth could such a lobbying agenda ever get funded at the requisite levels? Remember "Rock the Vote," where an entire generation was going to wake like a sleeping giant & give Washington what for? Even with exposure to the saturation point, voter turnout was anemic at best for Rock the Vote's target demographic.

    Turning your laudable agenda into reality takes more than tip-jar money - it takes soul-owning money. The other side has quite an inventory of legislators already. For crying out loud, look at the excrable piece of legislation that got Feinstein (D) & Frist (R) cooperating!

    I would be *thrilled* to be wrong on this, but I don't think the war can realisticly be won at the grassroots, political action level. Various viral marketing tactics for alternative media is one helpful strategy, and frankly, rogue technology is the other. If those who would control every exposure to media products are swiftly defeated by technological liberators every time the two face off, then all the laws in the US Code won't help the restrictors put the toothpaste back in the tube.

    Using free software, people can already share data anonymously, store data invisibly, and view and copy just about any extant media without difficulty. Cobble all that into a single dashboard / portal interface & make it portable, extensible, and a no-brainer for the unsavvy to use, and you have quite a strong weapon against DRM: its own futility. Of course IANAL and I don't recommend anyone do anything illegal; just keep in mind that technology can secure certain liberties when governments fail to.

  29. Lessig Rocks, NOT! by argoff · · Score: 1

    The problem with Lessig is that his position is not anti-copyright, but reform copyright enough to find a "happy" middle ground. While this sounds nice, the RIAA and MPAA understand very cleary that this is an all or nothing battle and have been using him to confuse and appease the masses from the front-door while they ram down harsher than ever copyright restriction laws and lawsiuts thru the back door. Is he refusing to take a total stand against copyrights because he has some deep moral understanding about the nature of free information that we dont? No. He is doing it because he does not want to be considered "radical" even if that radical position is the truth. We shouldn't follow him, because he is following us by pandering to the masses instead of the facts. While this might help him get good book sells, it will not help liberty in the information age which is really the goal.

  30. 12-year-old interview by emarkp · · Score: 1

    Of course, that may be a misunderstanding he used to have.

  31. Just give me free speech! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    BUT they'd better not be obvious copies of characters in works protected by copyright, and they better not be named after counterparts in copyrighted works

    So, I largely have the freedom of speech, to speak and write about anything I want. Except copyright strips me of that freedom: I can't speak of copyrighted ideas, nor ideas which are "too similar" to ideas which someone else owns.

    Worse yet, the courts do not and will not define what "too similar" actually means: IP lawyers smugly re-iterate that there is no "bright line" test for copyright infringement. So, if you express an illegal idea, you'll break the law. And you don't know and can't know if it's legal to express that idea.

    Now, how do you ask a lawyer if that idea is legal, if he can't possibly know the right answer, and you can't legally tell him about the idea you're thinking about, without breaking the law?

    Copyright is a bad idea. Period.

    1. Re:Just give me free speech! by MrAndrews · · Score: 1
      Copyright is a bad idea. Period.
      Copyright is still a good idea, because without it a company like Disney could take a song someone posted for free on the web, press a million CDs and make a fortune off it without any compensation to the original author. And until the general public learns to voluntarily support artists (moving from a product to appreciation model), there needs to be some level of legal protection for artists. Still, MODERN copyright is a bad idea, and should be fixed.
    2. Re:Just give me free speech! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Copyright is still a good idea, because without it a company like Disney could take a song someone posted for free on the web, press a million CDs and make a fortune off it without any compensation to the original author.

      And, thanks to a free market, those million CDs would drop in price until the price fell to the close to the price of manufacture, because of competion to produce them. So Disney wouldn't make a fortune: but consumers would benefit from being able to afford more movies.

      The problem isn't Disney making money by manufacturing copies of the work; it's the person making the initial discovery not being adequately compensated for discovering a good idea (be it how to tell a story, play a song, draw a picture, or do mathematics). However, this risk exists in other fields that are not subject to copyright (mathematics and science being the main ones), and yet, we still manage to produce important discoveries in mathematics and science, and to compensate those who make them.

      And until the general public learns to voluntarily support artists (moving from a product to appreciation model), there needs to be some level of legal protection for artists. Still, MODERN copyright is a bad idea, and should be fixed.

      No. Copyright is a bad idea. People should be able to copy ideas.

      Rewarding discovery is a good idea. Limiting someone else's rightto use and build upon discoveries is a bad idea. If you want the government tamper with the free market, and fund creative discoveries for the good of society, then by all means, go ahead and do it -- directly. But don't champion that barrier to innovation known as "copyright".

  32. Nonsense by donutello · · Score: 1

    The fruit seller down the street from me is not guaranteed that anyone will buy his oranges before they go bad. That doesn't make stealing them ok.

    The producers, writers and actors of TV shows expect that if they do a good job, their show will go into syndication and sell on DVD. You can't just deprive them of that income because those sales aren't guaranteed. The fact that people are willing to pay for the DVDs and watch those reruns and that advertisers are willing to pay for those reruns to be aired proves that TV shows have a value beyond their first airing.

    Also, who are you to decide where movies should be paid for? The fact that there are people willing to pay to buy and rent movies proves that there is a value to DVDs. Your deciding otherwise doesn't change anything.

    --
    Mmmm.. Donuts
    1. Re:Nonsense by ratboy666 · · Score: 1

      donutello

      I had to think awhile on your reply. Both to what I said, and didn't say.

      I didn't say anthing about my opinions on copying DVDs, or downloading movies or TV shows. All I did was comment on the economics of TV and movies.

      Now, on to the oranges: are you implying that TV shows and movies "go bad"? I mentioned that some do. Others don't. But there should be no expectation of perpetual profit (or potential profit). With copyright terms set as they are now, there is such an expectation.

      On to music. Where I live, we have a "peronal copy provision". In exchange for a levy, I can copy music. In a way, this is worse than a long copyright term, because the levy has the possibility of being forever. But, with the long terms, I welcome it, and want the levy extended to books and movies.

      As to downloading movies -- I simply claimed that it is not practical. When copyright was first introduced, the only people who could practically copy books were other publishers; not the consumers. And this is the situation with movies now. It won't always be the case (look at what happened with CDs and MP3 compression). By the time it becomes practical to download movies, I hope that progressive legislation will allow movies under the "personal copy provision". If it doesn't -- I won't download movies.

      Except for a SINGLE circumstance -- which is when I download a movie now. If I have a kids DVD (purchased), and I am unable (some DVDs I can't seem to copy) to copy to hard disk, and my kids like the movies, I break the law. I download a copy to put onto my home entertainment unit. Saves wear and tear on the DVD. And, do you know? I don't feel guilty about doing that at all.

      Just sayin'

      YMMV
      Ratboy

      --
      Just another "Cubible(sic) Joe" 2 17 3061
  33. There are a lot of interesting points here... by ElboRuum · · Score: 1

    Unfortunately, I believe that retooling an existing system in such disrepair as the copyright system with patchwork alternative licensing schemes is just creating complexity which wouldn't adjusted existing law, which is the root of the problem.

    The original intent of copyright law was to foment the creativity by creating a system where a person's intellectual work was protected for a period of time. During this period of time, the initial work's integrity was guaranteed and gave control over its dissemination to its creator. By integrity, I mean it could not be altered from its original form without permission and attribution, and by control, I mean it couldn't be disseminated without permission. Of course, it was up to the creator to decide whether either of these would be pursued in the case of infringement.

    Note that the original intent was not to give the creator of intellectual property perpetual license to profit from his work. This would have given the creator no reason to continue creating since he/she would be able to profit in perpetuity, so the amount of time was intentionally finite, judged to be the amount of time to become (if it was of significant import) ubiquitous to the culture, on the order of 20 years or so. It should also be noted that copyright law does not explicitly give the creator the right to profit from the work, although this is implied in his/her rights of control.

    The principle of fair use has always been a part of copyright law principles because an important right to freedom of expression is public debate and political satire. Essentially fair use states that nominal, attributed citation of portions of another's intellectual property for the creation of another intellectual work is not only protected speech, but vital to the political and cultural health of the nation.

    However, because of the implicit ability to profit over intellectual works, it was only a matter of time before distribution organizations would pop up, and it was only a matter of a little more time before the laws were amended to maximize the profits of copyright holders, both through the ability to extend copyrights beyond their bounds, lengthening of the interval of copyright protection, and wholesale relinquishment of rights through draconian licensing agreements.

    Right now, I believe that if you publically perform a rendition of Happy Birthday, you owe someone a royalty (and if you do so without the holder's prior permission, you are infringing, and thus liable for damages). Given the cultural ubiquity of Happy Birthday, one can reasonably argue that copyright law no longer protects intellectual property in a manner consistent with its inception.

    At this point, especially with regard to entertainment media, we have a licensing system that no longer embraces the spirit of copyright law. It has gotten so far out of hand, what with the civil prosecution of juveniles, and the otherwise shotgun-blast method of doling out lawsuits to scare people into settlements, that the law must be changed. Specifically, it must be changed to embrace its heritage, not protect those interested in using it as an instrument of extorting exorbitant sums from people they have the nerve to call their customers.

  34. Accidental access, accidental similarity by tepples · · Score: 1
    I can't avoid hearing RIAA owned music in the big city I live in, but I can (and do) avoid paying for it.

    You pay for it all right, not in money but in the right to compose songs. U.S. copyright case law considers "access" plus "substantial similarity" to equal copying. If you hear a recording of an all-rights-reserved song on Muzak, you are for the rest of your life deemed to have had "access" to the work. Years later, if you ever compose something that is accidentally similar, you are an infringer and a plagiarist.

  35. OK, but that's not copyrights by PCM2 · · Score: 1
    Today, you can merrily write about vampires without worry of a lawsuit, but if you try and write about another fictional villain, say a Star Wars Sith Lord, and you will find your ass sued into the ground. This SHOULD be troubling.

    Should it? For one thing, you're not talking about copyrights. You're talking about trademarks -- which are another form of "intellectual property," but they aren't Lessig's main issue.

    The problem with the Sith Lord is that Lucas owns a trademark on the term "Sith Lord." But there are plenty of amateur fictional works about, for example, a guy who travels in time with a few companions in a time machine that's bigger on the outside than on the inside and who undoes the plans of evil robots -- they just can't call those stories "Doctor Who." That's nothing to do with copyrights. That's trademarks.

    Even so, it's not as if wanting to protect one's intellectual property is a new idea. Many people consider the first "modern" novel to be Don Quixote by Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, which was published in two parts. The first part appeared in 1605 and the second in 1615. Before Cervantes could publish the second part, however, a man writing under the name of Alonso Fernándo de Avellaneda published an unauthorized sequel to the original, in an attempt to capitalize on Cervantes' huge success. Cervantes was pissed. There was no trademark law at the time that could protect him; he fought back by devoting several sections of the authentic sequel to lampooning and chiding the impostor. Some characters in the real sequel even claim to have read the fake one. What's more, academic society frowns on Avellaneda's work, which has come to be known as the "false Quixote" and is often dismissed outright. In other words, society at large perceives the validity of Cervantes' "ownership" of the character of Quixote, even if there is no explicit law on the books that makes what Avellaneda did a crime. So you can't act like this debate is a manifestation of the modern era; in fact it goes back centuries.

    --
    Breakfast served all day!