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Xbox 360 HD-DVD Player Just for Movies

Posted by ryuzaki0 on from the at-least-for-now dept.

The Gamerscore blog, an official Microsoft news organ, lays to rest the rumours that the HD-DVD drive might be required to play future 360 games. According to them the new HD drive is solely intended to play movies, and will not be used to accesss game content. From the article: "Since announcing the Xbox 360 HD DVD Player accessory at E3 2006, we've been clear that it is designed exclusively for playing HD DVD movies. It will not play games on HD DVD. At this point, we haven't seen anything to suggest that next-gen DVD formats offer a better game experience than current DVD. What we do know is that these formats will bring added cost to game developers, disc manufacturing, and could even result in added costs and longer load times for the consumer, which would negatively impact the game experience." This is, of course, not to say another peripheral or future version of the console might require such a thing.

94 comments

  1. LOL by Proctal+Relapse · · Score: -1, Troll

    Jews did HD-DVD

  2. It Sure is by elzurawka · · Score: -1, Troll

    Yeah We heard
    This is a stupid move. The fact that sony will be abel to add 5X the content to their games gives them the edge. Sure right nwo while PS3 is $600+, xbox will win, but in 2 years when the price levels out...you would have to be stupid to buy a 360 of a PS3.

    --
    -EL
    1. Re:It Sure is by stevo3232 · · Score: 3, Informative

      The number of gigs worth of data in a game is slightly less important than gameplay, imho. With the new indy developer program, if it actually works like Microsoft says it will, I think this will be a MAJOR bonus for the Xbox 360.

      --
      s.clementmonkey@sympatico.ca, remove the 'monkey'.
    2. Re:It Sure is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1

      You know, the pro-Xbox mods are a little crazy, aren't they? I mean, this guy is asking a legit question and he gets modded as a troll? All for questioning ONE feature of the Xbox? If you bought an Xbox hoping to elongate your e-penis, and have trouble dealing with the Sony fanbois, who cares?

    3. Re:It Sure is by brkello · · Score: 1

      So, just put the content on 5 disks. Really, it doesn't matter. The company with the most games that people want will win.

      --
      Support a great indie game: http://www.abaddon360.com
    4. Re:It Sure is by elzurawka · · Score: 3, Interesting

      What stops Sony from doing the same. These will be the standard systems for the next 5-7 years. I think that right now it may be hard to fill a blue-ray disk with data for a game, but who knows what will happen in 2,3,5 years? I think leaving yourself the option to add more content cant hurt you. 9 gigs is alot, but imagine the incredible ammount of contect a game in 5 years could have. HD graphics(i assume) takes up lots of space. If you wantted to creat a huge world to explore, being limited by data cant be good. Ive already esen Xbox games hada are a full dual layer DVD, dont tell me you wont ever need more for a 360 game. And as someone else stated, swaping disks just gets annoying.

      --
      -EL
    5. Re:It Sure is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If history is an indicator, Sony will stop Sony from allowing consumers to develop homebrew games and apps.

    6. Re:It Sure is by timster · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I guess huge games are kind of nice, but they are not cheap to develop. If you spend $100 million making a game, you are taking a huge risk as you'd need to sell 4 million copies to break even, and few games sell so well. It's far better to spend, say, $35 million per game and make three. That way you can take more creative risks and increase your chances of a surprise hit.

      So there is a limit to how big a game can be, and we've basically reached it -- how many DVD games run to multiple disks? Sure, there might be a market for one or two games that could have a budget of $500 million and still make a profit, but those are so rare that it's not worth including an expensive drive just for them. Besides, I'll probably be bored with your $500 million, 400-hour masterpiece after a few weeks anyway. Give me a cool game like Advance Wars, made with care by hopelessly obsessive-compulsive Japanese minimax nerds, and I'll be playing it years later.

      --
      I have seen the future, and it is inconvenient.
    7. Re:It Sure is by stevo3232 · · Score: 1

      "What stops Sony from doing the same."

      Sony has a nice track record of not allowing homebrew. Look at the PSP.

      I think leaving yourself the option to add more content cant hurt you.

      I agree. But gameplay is what makes a game. The N64 had small cartridges while the PS1 had massive CDs. Sure, some developers left, but there were still great games like Ocarina of Time, Super Mario 64, Goldeneye 007, Perfect Dark, etc.

      Also of note is that Microsoft isn't shoving next-gen formats down our throats when it's not necessary. Sony is making everything on Bluray when it could fit on a DVD (afaik). It's just wasteful. In any case, I don't think the PS3 is going to get very far, as a price tag of over ~$300 makes it unavailable for quite a number of people. Really, Microsoft is targetting the right market and seems to be doing things smartly this generation. It amazes me. Personally, I think what the Xbox 360 needs right now is a triple-A title, but other than that is in pretty good condition. The price for the 360 is OK because they're targetting an older audience which has more $$$.

      Back on topic though, I don't think Microsoft should limit themselves from putting games on HD-DVD if it's really necessary. I just don't think it's a requirement to make great games.

      Thanks, stevo3232

      --
      s.clementmonkey@sympatico.ca, remove the 'monkey'.
    8. Re:It Sure is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      By the end of the PS1's life, it was clear that 1 CD didn't cut it. Games would frequently come on 2-4 CDs.

      Now, at the end of the PS2's life, how many games come on multiple DVDs? I'll wait...

      The answer is: none. There are no multi-DVD PS2 games. There's little to no danger of games spilling over the 8GB+ that a dual-layer DVD offers. In fact, more recent games are getting SMALLER as compression techniques improve.

      There's no point in forcing people to use Blu-ray on the PS3, it simply isn't needed for games.

      It's only needed to try and force people to use Sony's technology. Sony is essentially "bundling" Blu-ray to try and force it into the market using their present market dominance. Fortunately for the market, it looks like it's going to backfire on Sony.

    9. Re:It Sure is by p0tat03 · · Score: 2, Informative

      "What stops Sony from doing the same."

      The fact that they have no resources to support the homebrew community to the extent MS can. MS has the advantage of being a tools developer for a VERY fricking long while, with a huge amount of experience gained from Visual Studio and all its derivatives. Sony is not a tools provider. Not to mention MS has been running its own very large service networks (Hotmail, MSN, etc) for a long time and are in a better position to support a mass distribution system such as Live.

      As for the HD DVD comment... We're at a era in gaming where developers are struggling with skyrocketing costs, and you're here telling them to produce MORE content? Every bit that sits on a disc has to be created by someone, and the larger your game, odds are the higher your costs. Filling a BR disc would take an IMMENSE amount of manpower that simply isn't economically feasible.

    10. Re:It Sure is by CronoCloud · · Score: 1

      Like with the Yaroze for the PS1 and the Linux kit for the PS2, and the Linux distro pre-installed on the PS3's hard drive?

      The PSP is an anomaly

    11. Re:It Sure is by CronoCloud · · Score: 1
      Sony has a nice track record of not allowing homebrew. Look at the PSP.


      Sony has a nice track record of allowing homebrew. Look at the PS1 and PS2.(and soon enough, the PS3)

      Yes, I know the PSP doesn't and yes I think they should do some sort of "sandbox" effort for amateur/hobbyist development.
    12. Re:It Sure is by quecojones · · Score: 1

      Everybody keeps saying this but, I'm thinking that one cool use of all that extra space is to, maybe, include a lot of unlockable stuff. As an example, think of the next Final Fantasy. Imagine if they were to include any (or all) of the previous versions of FF (I-XII; maybe not FFII) on the disc and unlock them as you acomplish certain things in the game? The same can applied, I think, to any other game with sufficient history to have previous versions that are considered classics.

      Just my $0.02...

      --
      "PROFANITY is the inevitable literary crutch of the inarticulate MOTHER FUCKER." -- some PC user
    13. Re:It Sure is by quecojones · · Score: 1

      Sorry, that was supposed to read as maybe not FFXI .

      --
      "PROFANITY is the inevitable literary crutch of the inarticulate MOTHER FUCKER." -- some PC user
    14. Re:It Sure is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "HD graphics(i assume) takes up lots of space"

      PC games have been putting out HD graphics for at least a decade. There is nothing inherent about High-definition graphics taking up lots of space. If you want to have lots of high-res *textures*, sure that eats up a chunk. Doubley-so for Full-motion-video.

      But there is no real difference in information quantity between a triangle rendered at 640x780 and one at 1920x1080.

    15. Re:It Sure is by qurk · · Score: 1

      I dunno man. MS may be the new coming of Jesus or something, I mean I know they are an awesome company, but Sony has JAPAN. MS may be super-great programmers of wonderful OS "Windows" and they may make a million different proprietary languages for themselves, but we're talking about freaking VIDEO GAMES here. And Nintendo was making the argument that N64 didn't need a cd-rom, because who would ever possibly need that much data-space for a game? Well look how well that turned out...PS with like a million RPG's, and N64 with just few enough that you don't even have to take off your shoes and socks to count them all, you can do it all on your fingers!! Ya I was being sarcastic. Microsoft makes holy crappy OS and it really makes me mad that they are trying to leverage their influence into the video gaming world. Call me old fashioned, but video games and Japan sortof go hand in hand... MS and video games...not so much. I guess what I'm trying to say is I don't feel you give Sony enough credit as to their position or influence in the video game world, and you come across as super duper MS fanboy :)

    16. Re:It Sure is by cluke · · Score: 1

      And don't forget YABASIC for the PS2.

    17. Re:It Sure is by p0tat03 · · Score: 1

      And *you* come off as a super duper Sony fanboy ;)

      I suggest you familiarize yourself with MS's less commonly known products. Microsoft isn't just Windows and Office, there's a lot in that company that would place the company in a better position to tackle gaming. I say that MS is better able to target homebrew because they've been doing that on the PC for a good long while, with MS Visual Studio Express. They know how to make good developer tools - I've been coding a good frickin' long while, and MSVC is still the best IDE I've used. Supporting homebrew is all about giving indies and average joes the tools to build games on your platform, and I simply don't see Sony being able to do that. They may be able to release specs and open a particular standard, but they don't have the ability to provide tools to the extent MS can.

      Video games and Japan go hand in hand? Now you just sound like a hopeless Japanophile. Sorry buddy, but there are a lot more gamers out there than there are Japanese people. Nintendo and Sony may have been large forces in the industry, but there's nothing to say that America is somehow *unqualified* to make a console. That just reeks of "OMFG KAWAII~ NIHON~~~!" fanboyism.

    18. Re:It Sure is by CronoCloud · · Score: 1

      Only for EU and UK territories, we NTSC folks never got YABASIC.

    19. Re:It Sure is by qurk · · Score: 1

      Hehe. Thank you Thank you. To be fair I've been studying Japanese for like 3 years now, so ya I guess you got me. But even if I wasn't a Japanaphile...Hmmm how to put this. Nintento, Sega, Turbographix, Neogeo. Who cares I guess I'm old but... um... Ya I stand by my statement that video games and Japan go hand in hand.
      Microsoft slapping a bunch of computer parts into a pint sized box and announcing "Wowzers we have video game console now" doesn't mean that suddenly they are "in a better position to tackle gaming". Not dissing my country of the USA, I mean we make bad assed games like Doom and Quake but.... Come on man "OMFG KAWAII~ NIHON~~~!" fanboyism? lol... OK I guess I am biased but aren't like 80% of video games actually from Japan? 15 years ago that figure was probably more like 95%.
      "I say that MS is better able to target homebrew because they've been doing that on the PC for a good long while". I will introduce you to my other fanboyism: Linux. And it's not just that since abandoning MS 5 years ago my 20 year computing experience suddenly got 10X better...it's that Microsoft's lousy-assed OS did the unforgiveable crime of actually jumping through hoops to go around me being even pretty careful, and it deleted all my stuff. OK long story short Microsoft asked if I wanted to make main hard drive ready for windows...I said yes. So it ignored my 2 gig primary hard drive, and repartitioned my 30 gig secondary hd as a 2 gig hard drive. So ya I had a reason to jump ship, but even so, every day I am glad I don't have to put up with that crap.
      Which is why I think you and I are both probably big computer nerds but....we see life in a completely different perspectives. To me "Microsoft" and "homegrown" in the same sentance seems absolutely and completely ABSURD, lol. Uh, ya 50 billion company + "homegrown" lol. I'm not saying that Sony has it either........at this moment if you think X-Box 360 has any way shape or form better homegrown support than Nintendo's upcoming Wii....then you need to check out Wii...Wiiiiiiiiiiiii man hehe.
      BTW there are 120 million people in Japan, and you make the statment that there are more gamers out there than that? Well I guess that'd be hard to prove either way but don't like 1 in 5 Japanese own the new DS handheld? That is like 1 in 5 people in the country. How many people in US have super DUPER Microsoft console, and what percentage of that is to number of people here.
      MS has a almost complete lock on the PC market, but I will stand by my original statement that video games=Japan, and I think I have explained to you that calling me such a vile fanboy may be over the top!
      Of course, I started the name calling!!!! Sorry about that buddy :)

    20. Re:It Sure is by p0tat03 · · Score: 1

      I hate to continue a dead thread, but this just invited for some response...

      Walk into your local EB, pick 100 random games for PC and consoles. How many originate from a Japanese studio? Very few I'd say... Besides the obvious ones like Final Fantasy and Metal Gear Solid, the VAST majority of games come from good old-fashioned American (and Canadian, and European) studios. It's not "80%", it's more like "10-15%". The vast majority of the gaming you've been doing for the past decade has been American in origin, unless you happen to have a region 2 PS2 and do a LOT of importing.

      Your linux fanboyism has nothing to do with this. Ask anyone about Xbox Live (who's actually used it) and they'll tell you that the Xbox Dashboard is one slick little puppy, easy to use, and doesn't fuck up.

      Let's look at Xbox360 homebrew. MS is releasing a managed code runtime for the 360, as well as a full IDE that integrates the entire art pipeline into one piece of software, making it trivial to compile your assets directly into the binary blob that will be your distributable. It also lets you, for $99/year, run, test, and debug your homebrew games on your $400 retail console (all the while without destroying your ability to play retail games), and allows you to feed binaries from your dev PC directly to the console. Hell, it also allows you to compile for Windows and Xbox360 at a touch of a button.

      Now let's look at Wii homebrew. Suffice to say, it doesn't exist. Nintendo has made the (good) move to offer cheaper dev kits, but we're still looking at $1700 for a dev kit, which is simply an unprotected Wii with debug features (like all dev kits). Code will still be reserved for the expert-level coder, being consisted of complex C++ libs instead of a consistent, managed API. Testing cannot occur on commodity hardware either. Got 2 programmers on your team? $3400 of hardware instead of... $800 of hardware + $200 of subscriptions. The Wii opens the door for low-funding independent developers to get onto the console, but the door is still shut for the average joe.

      That's the difference. Check your facts before spouting off about the supposed absurdity of MS and homebrew communities. If you didn't know, MS has always offered Visual Studio Express (a toned-down version of the commercial VS product line) for free so hobbyists can code. It's not as slick as the commercial version, but it's no slouch. Hell, MS has been maintaining the Code4Fun MSDN site for years, which contains specific tutorials, articles, and goes around to university campuses giving lectures and tutorials about amateur game development (with a DirectX bent, but that's understandable). They have in fact been supporting homebrew (albeit on PC) for a very good long time.

      Microsoft is in fact in a better position to tackle gaming. They have the extensive toolchain experience that no other company has. While the PS3 was yabbering about Cell low-level opcodes, MS is touting high-level language runtimes that allow you to develop for PC and Xbox for the price of one. The PC-like nature of the hardware only makes it simpler for PC developers to get into the business. PC programmers are easy to find, to commoditize them in the game industry brings up the bottom line, reduces labour costs, and is a win-win for everyone. "slapping a bunch of computer parts" into a box is probably the best thing they've ever done, and is pretty much the same thing the PS3 is doing now. None of the next-gen consoles are as integrated and customized as ye olde SNES or even the PS2, all are now using commoditized, standardized equipment.

      As for your game of numbers. Let's play:

      - Population of USA+Canada: 330 million, according to the ESA, 75% of American adults play console or PC games. That's about 170 million people.
      - Population of EU: 456 million, 25% of whom, according to Google Answers, own a console. That's 114 million people.
      - That's a conservative estimate of 284 million people in the US, Canada, and Europe who play

    21. Re:It Sure is by qurk · · Score: 1

      Hiya. I guess it's a dead thread but it still lets us reply, I know after awhile they cut that off. Also, I don't know how much you are benefiting from this discussion, but I at least am learning some things from you, so thanks for taking the time for such a great response!
      I had to see for myself, and just got back from the local Gamespot. I knew your assertion that only 15% of games was hard to believe...but now I have to admit to you that I was similarly off base by stating 80%. I'd have to say that Japanese games probably made up for like 50% of the games. I hadn't realized that companies like Atari, Sierra, Activision, etc. had regained so much of the market.
      I actually own an X-Box and concur with you that it has a pretty good interface.
      As far as Microsoft goes, I know that theres all these great games and all, but name the games that come out for Linux. In my opinion, the great ones. Unreal Tournament, any id software game, etc. Being as that is my favorite genre of computer gaming, I'm as happy as a shell with the situation. I was looking at the western games at gamespot, and frankly, they for the most part didn't interest me. I know I know, I'm a fanboy. I pretty much have to admit that you know what you are talking about! :)
      I guess I'm just getting old and out of the loop, but video games are a subject close to my heart. I spent a large portion of my 20's playing on a MUD, over the internet.. Is why I first brought up the PS vs N64 analogy to compare them to X-Box 360 vs. PS3 in terms of storage space. I didn't buy either one of them till a couple years ago.
      I do feel your statistics regarding the # of consoles vs. population, while fascinating, do not mean much. First off, you lump PC gamers in with console gamers. In my example, I mentioned a particular console, the Nintendo DS. Roughly 1 in 5 of Japanese own one. Computers are pretty much a given in the USA anymore, of course they are going to say ya I play computer games sometimes, no discertion between that and console in your example. Your example of EU is pretty pathetic compared to Japan, 25% of the population owns a console...whereas in Japan 1 in 5 people own a particular console. I still stand fully on my statement that "Video Games=Japan"....not saying that western games aren't a huge force but for a single country to have such a huge influence on video games...that it isn't possible to just disregard them.
      Microsoft has proven time and time again that they are a ruthless company that will use any means to permeate whichever market they choose to. Even with something as irrelevant as a web browser, they used that to further concrete their dominance on the OS market. To be honest with you, in a way I find it offensive that they are trying to squirm their slimy tendrils into the video gaming market. However, it's good for the consumer because we have choices, and prices drop and games get better when there is competition. It's pretty sad though that Microsoft is the only American company that can stand up to the Evil Japanese Game Companies, and I guess I feel a little pride that there is at least one company, even if it is Microsoft. However, it's a love/hate relationship.
      Thanks for your time and to opening up my eyes a little bit. I'm glad that you've created such a great relationship with Microsoft and that it works for you!

  3. Ugh! by N3Roaster · · Score: 4, Funny

    So the HD-DVD drive for the XBox 360 (a game console) won't play games and Sony's Blu-Ray drive for PCs won't play Blu-Ray movies. What's the point again?

    --
    Remember RFC 873!
    1. Re:Ugh! by Kazzahdrane · · Score: 2, Informative

      Microsoft said right from the start that they wanted their customers to have the choice of whether to spend money on a next-gen DVD drive, unlike Sony who are giving PS3-buyers a Blue-Ray drive whether they like it or not. For this reason MS said months ago that they would not release any games this generation on HD-DVD discs, because they wanted all their 360 owners to be able to play all the games available. This isn't news at all, MS have always said the optional HD-DVD drive would be for movies and not games.

    2. Re:Ugh! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      HD-DVD is for movies and Blu-ray is for data.

    3. Re:Ugh! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't be a half-wit. For current 360 owners it means you can get an hd-dvd player for about $200. Obviously most gamers won't care, but for those who do, the option exists. That's not _REALLY_ that hard to wrap your mind around, is it?

    4. Re:Ugh! by h4rdc0d3 · · Score: 1

      Not only that, but as I understand it, the Xbox 360 HD-DVD drive won't even include an HDMI port. Unless that has recently changed, someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

    5. Re:Ugh! by aichpvee · · Score: 1

      Isn't anyone concerned (aside from the whole issue of supporting microsoft's attempt to move their monopoly into the living room) that their HD-DVD addon looks fucking retarded plugged into the already silly looking xbox 360?

      --
      The Farewell Tour II
    6. Re:Ugh! by DrEldarion · · Score: 1

      Of course, you could also look at the opposite perspective, and say that Sony wants to give developers the choice of whether to release games on blu-ray or DVD, unlike MS who are giving 360 deevlopers no choice whether they like it or not.

      If you've a developer, and came up with some AMAZING new gotta-have-it game that happened to take up 30GB of space due to it being simply massive in scope, which would you rather do, develop it for a console that supports it straight away, release it on 4 DVDs and piss off people by requiring disc changes, or scale it back?

      I'm not being an apologist here, as I agree that the added cost makes it hard to stomach, but I can't disagree more with the "640k should be enough for everyone!" view that people seem to have with storage on the next-gen consoles.

    7. Re:Ugh! by Kazzahdrane · · Score: 1

      I'm not saying I agree with MS's choice, merely that those were the reasons they gave. I'd imagine that towards the end of this generation Microsoft will face some problems with games only appearing on the PS3 because they would need to be on many DVDs for the 360, but for a while at least they have the price advantage in their favour. They probably hope that by the time disc storage becomes a real issue they will have a large installed userbase that will continue to buy games for their system.

  4. The article doesn't have the facts straight by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The artice is not exactly accurate. A better article can be found here.

    Rgrds,
    Roland

  5. Doesn't preclude HD-DVD game extras... by SuperKendall · · Score: 2, Interesting

    While they are still maintaining that no game content will be accessed on DVD, I have to think they have some plans for promoting the device that would involve gaming. One way to do that would be to have the actual game on a DVD but ship an extra HD-DVD with game extras (like making of videos and so forth) that would be in some kind of premium pack...

    Otherwise I can't see how Microsoft can really promote the drive with just the limited selection of movies around at the moment.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    1. Re:Doesn't preclude HD-DVD game extras... by Keith+Russell · · Score: 1

      They way Microsoft sees it, you can get a next-gen game console and a next-gen movie player for a price in the same ballpark as the player alone. (This is where the MBAs would start spouting off about "value-added synergy".) If you already have a 360, you can add an HD-DVD player for ~$200 (based on the latest rumours). If not, you can buy a 360 and the HD-DVD drive at the same time, and spend ~$500-$600. That's right around the price range of dedicated HD-DVD players right now, although pricegrabber.com is showing some street prices as low as $430 for the least-expensive Toshiba model. If the 360 is better at HD-DVD playback than the first PS2s were at DVDs, Microsoft may have a winner.

      --
      This sig intentionally left blank.
    2. Re:Doesn't preclude HD-DVD game extras... by Guppy06 · · Score: 1

      "Otherwise I can't see how Microsoft can really promote the drive with just the limited selection of movies around at the moment."

      The same way Sony can promote an entire freakin' console even with the limited selection of movies around at the moment.

    3. Re:Doesn't preclude HD-DVD game extras... by Knuckles · · Score: 1

      But if I would spend 500-600 for a console plus HD player, why wouldn't I take the PS3 which is a better console and has it all in one box instead of a clunky extension*? Sounds like a risky strategy to me.

      * Or two. Xbox360 + huge power supply + huge HDDVD extension sure is not easy to fit into the living room

      --
      "When I first heard Daydream Nation it quite frankly scared the living shit out of me." -- Matthew Stearns
    4. Re:Doesn't preclude HD-DVD game extras... by Keith+Russell · · Score: 1

      The short, snarky answer: Because PS3 is Blu-Ray.

      The more detailed answer: When you bring PS3 into the equation, you're adding the Blu-Ray vs. HD-DVD variable, so let's not solve for it yet.

      Making the %HDMOVIE% drive a separate accessory gives the customer the choice of when to buy: at the same time as the console, later, or not at all. Microsoft is reinforcing the "not at all" choice by committing to DVD, not %HDMOVIE%, for game content. Yeah, there are trade-offs because you're duplicating a drive, power supply, and housing, but that's just one more thing each customer will have to figure out. With PS3, Sony is declaring %HDMOVIE% the wave of the future, so you better be ready. They have PS2's DVD history on their side. What's not on their side is the cost of %HDMOVIE% drives today. It's that difference in price between %HDMOVIE% today and DVD back in the day that is, in my opinion, putting Sony at greater risk. They may be able to justify it with quality games that benefit from Blu-Ray. I'm afraid we'll just add "stunning HD quality" to the 30-minute unskippable, unpausable cutscenes in the next Xenogears. :-)

      Which brings us back to HD-DVD vs. Blu-Ray. Sony was obviously going to support Blu-Ray exclusively. Their Chronic Not Invented Here Syndrome compelled it. Maybe Microsoft was just being contrarian when they hitched the wagon to HD-DVD, or maybe there was a fight over VC-1. I don't know, and the research really doesn't interest me. Maybe the real problem is that, with the lack of consensus on what technology would become the value of %HDMOVIE%, the R&D and production costs of hardware haven't dropped as fast or as much as Sony and Microsoft had hoped. In that light, Microsoft's decision to make DVD the standard game medium and HD-DVD an accessory look like a good hedge bet.

      --
      This sig intentionally left blank.
  6. Are there any games with multiple DVDs yet? by Donjo · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I remember in the playstation days there were quite a few popular titles that required switching disks (Final fantasy games, grand turismo, metal gear solid etc.) and I don't own a single game that uses multiple dual layer DVDs for actual gameplay. Maybe I just got lucky and didn't buy one but to me that is a sign that the format is not quite dead yet and we don't need to worry about HD-DVD game content.

    1. Re:Are there any games with multiple DVDs yet? by whobutdrew · · Score: 1

      There is only one that I know of, Onimusha Dawn of Dreams. Even if there were a few more, I'd still be inclined to agree with you about the DVD format.

      --
      In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not.
    2. Re:Are there any games with multiple DVDs yet? by leblin · · Score: 1

      Xenosaga 2 has 2 DVDs. I dont think any of the cut scenes are rendered in real time. Which is sad considering their quality isn't very high.

    3. Re:Are there any games with multiple DVDs yet? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Star Ocean 3, Shadow Hearts II, Armored Core: Nexus, and I'm sure there are others. The .hack games, at least one edition of FFX, and some others come with bonus video DVDs. Then there are a few games that come with their soundtracks on music CDs (and if you're going to sell a game for $50 or more, you'd better).

  7. I love options by The_Pariah · · Score: 4, Insightful
    I said it before, and I'll say it again: I LOVE options.

    MS brings up the point I keep pointing out: Next-gen consoles DON'T NEED next-gen media formats. DVD9 is fine.

    Sony is still forcing the Blu-Ray format, although the only reason for it is for Sony to push it's agenda that Blu-Ray > HD-DVD. There's no need for Blu-Ray on the PS3. But it's still there. And you HAVE TO pay that premium price ($200 higher than the XBOX 360) even if you never want to watch a soon to be obsolete video format.

    Thank you MS for not forcing HD-DVD on us.

    --
    Future ruler of a small Asian-Pacific island
    1. Re:I love options by adam31 · · Score: 1
      If only DVD were big enough, I would agree with you. 6 GB is a pretty big limitation, and if you actually use all of it you're in a world of no fun with layer changes and attrocious inner-circle read speeds.

      But the reality is that we're on the verge of really huge space-consuming technology: off-line procedural textures, baked detail maps on top of multiple layers of material maps, procedural geometry. These are not run-time jobs. Erosion for instance, can consume hours of CPU time, and artists always want the last tweak before an asset gets finalized.

      Games have been small up til now because it takes too much artist time to go through and build 6 GB of assets, but that era is over. The future is in achieving uniqueness throughout the world, and that 'unique' part consumes a ton of memory. Of course, on the XBox, it looks like worlds will always be low-res heightmaps with tiling textures :\

    2. Re:I love options by coop247 · · Score: 1
      There's no need for Blu-Ray on the PS3

      Today, but what about 5 years from now. Like many people you aren't considering the fact that the life span for a console is almost 10 years. Do you really think everyone will still be buying DVD's in 7 years? Now I'm not happy about the format war, but thats another issue.
      --
      //TODO: Insert catchy phrase
    3. Re:I love options by MojoBox · · Score: 1

      Uh, excuse me? The lifespan of a console is 10 years? Yes, because the Xbox came out in late 1995, and the N64 come out in fall of 1991. Oh, sure, some games continue to come out after the consoles been supplanted by it's succesor, but that doesn't mean the parties not over for the older system. Try 4-6 years.

    4. Re:I love options by The_Pariah · · Score: 1
      Where is the 6GB number coming from? Dual layer discs hold approx. 9GB.

      And I still don't see a problem with having a two-disc game. If it keeps manufacturing and development costs down, it's not a big deal to me.

      Off topic of what I'm mentioning, but it would be nice, if there were two-disc games, to allow the HD-DVD drive and the built in to read both discs at the same time. Dual drives loading maps would definitely be nice and a a lot faster. Or even to avoid the "Please insert disc 2" screen prompts. No interruption in game play.

      --
      Future ruler of a small Asian-Pacific island
    5. Re:I love options by poot_rootbeer · · Score: 1

      what about 5 years from now.

      If larger disc capacities are needed 5 years from now, then console manufacturers can plan to build the technology into the consoles that they will release 5 years from now. I'm not willing to pay now for technology that won't be needed until 2011, and it'll be 1/4 of the price by then anyway.

      Like many people you aren't considering the fact that the life span for a console is almost 10 years.

      Rubbish. The life span for a console is only until a better console is released.

      Do you really think everyone will still be buying DVD's in 7 years?

      Yes. Without hesitation, yes.

      The lifespan of the VHS tape was from the late 1970's to the late 1990's. That's twenty years. Compact discs? Over twenty-five years old now, and still king of the mountain.

      The DVD market is only 7 or 8 years old right now. It's still got at least a dozen years of life left in it before something revolutionarily better comes along that compels us to buy everything all over again.

    6. Re:I love options by MaestroSartori · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Disclaimer - I work for Sony as a games programmer.

      But I haven't always worked there. I've worked on PS2, Xbox, Gamcube, PSP and PS3 games. Every single platform I've worked on has pushed the capacities of the media we've had to work with for various reasons. Take audio for example. A game with a lot of speech needs a lot of audio, at least until we can get synthesized voices sounding good. Not so bad if you only need to support one language, but us European devs tend to ship games that can support at least three or four languages, sometimes more. So triple or quadruple the amount of audio data you need to store right off the bat. Graphics are the really obvious space eater, though. Higher poly counts, higher resolution textures, shaders requiring multiple textures for multiple passes. More levels, more characters, more sounds, more content. More more more! Yeah, more isn't always better, but all else being equal as a developer I'd rather have loads of space and not need it, than need it and not have it.

      --
      Game dev and music blog
    7. Re:I love options by Kadin2048 · · Score: 1

      Now, I'm not a game developer, but it's always seemed to me like lots of aspects of gaming that we take as gospel are really consequences of the technology that was available when "multimedia" games were first developed. We assume, for instance, that storage will be cheaper than processing power. This has always been true: when you had a 66MHz processor with a 1.2 GB hard drive, with a CD-Rom drive, it made sense to pre-render as much stuff as you possibly could and stick it on the disc. Computers got faster, but at the same time DVDs came along, so the status quo stayed about the same.

      But what if this isn't the best way to do things? What if game consoles add processing power faster than they add storage? Rather than storing huge texturemaps, you render them on the fly. The quality of the rendered textures could depend on what system you were using and how much processing capacity it had. If you had the entry-level unit, it might look pretty plain. If you had a super-duper multiprocessor system, then it would start to look better and better.

      Maybe textures are a bad example, because it's hard to imagine having enough processing power in everyone's consoles to really make generating them advantageous to having them prerendered, but then again, people have thought a lot of things were impossible and they usually end up being wrong eventually.

      Level maps might also be candidates for runtime generation, at least in single-player games; rather than trying to store huge urban environments (where you always have the problem of the player running into the edge), you could have some rules for generating the map as the player moved. As the person moved around, previously explored areas would be saved to the console's online storage (hard drive). It doesn't seem like it would be hard to generate very detailed urban environments algorithmically. Mapping out every piece of litter and broken payphone in a world the size of Manhattan would be both labor and space-intensive, but you could probably find out the distribution rules for litter and payphones pretty easily, and have the computer do it as needed.

      I think there could be interesting consequences of a system like this. Provided the games were programmed correctly, the same game could be used on a range of systems, from very minimal pocket systems (where, lacking processing capacity, it would use very minimal stored textures), to all-out gaming rigs, where separate processors would handle map generation, texture generation, traditional graphics, enemy AI, physics, and player input.

      It seems like the console manufacturers could stand to benefit from something like this, because there would always be an upgrade path. I guess it's an open question whether the game developers would: if you make a game too open-ended and it doesn't come with a subscription fee, would they see it as a threat?

      --
      "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
    8. Re:I love options by Tyger · · Score: 1

      That is called procedural generation, and it is hardly new. It works really well for some games, not so well for others.

      Games where the environment are a vital part of the gameplay, for example, it would not work so well for. For example, consider if Prince of Persia: Sands of Time were procedurally generated.

      On the other hand, open ended games like GTA where the environment is not so vitally a part of the gameplay would have an easier time working with a procedurally generated world.

    9. Re:I love options by coop247 · · Score: 1

      I bought a PS2 in 2000, and they will still be selling new ones for the next 3 years. In my crazy math that looks like close to 10 years.
      Just because new consoles come out doesn't mean the previous version just disappears. There are many titles still to be realeased on the PS2.

      --
      //TODO: Insert catchy phrase
    10. Re:I love options by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, as a "Sony as a games programmer" you'd also be aware of how few games came close to taking up a full DVD on the PS2; in fact, most PS2 games could have easily fit on 2 CDs (and fit quite nicely on Nintendo's 1.5 GB Gamecube disc). The number of games on the XBox 360 or Nintendo Wii that will require a second DVD to contain all of the data will be (about) 5%-10% at most; on the other hand 100% of PS3 games will cost $10 more so that Sony can put them on a Blu-Ray disc instead of a DVD inorder to increase production of Blu-Ray discs.

      Yeah ... I'd rather have to occasionally change discs after 10-20 hours of gameplay then spend $70 per game for every game; but that's just me.

    11. Re:I love options by JFMulder · · Score: 1

      Huh? Procedural assets are exactly the kind of things the 360 designers had in mind. No worry there.

    12. Re:I love options by donaldm · · Score: 1

      To bring this into context look at the PlayStation 1 (CD) and 2 (CD or DVD). When the PS2 came out the DVD was fairly new, in-fact a DVD player was quite expensive and a PC DVD recorder was over US$1000.

      Sony did not force games manufacturers to actually use DVD's for their games since you could still play original PS1 games and some PS2 games did come out in CD format. Of course later on most manufactures produced their games on DVD, not that they actually needed the capacity of DVD but it was not really worth while pirating a game to a DVD when that DVD was quite expensive to begin with.

      Now with Blueray a similar thing applies, Manufactures are free to used CD or DVD for PS3 games if they wish, but who in their right mind is going to pirate a game to a Blueray disk when that disk is going to cost a significant price of the game. That is not to say that piracy won't happen but it would be significantly reduced.

      Over time Blueray disks will come down in price just like DVD did and even today is it worth your while coping a PS2 game when many second-hand PS2 games and even some brand new games are reasonably cheap. Now the Xbox is a different matter since it is possible to mod it, add a larger disk and put plenty of games on it very cheaply and easily.

      Creating an add-on HD-DVD to the Xbox is going to just create a cheaper HD-DVD player which will need to be controlled via the Xbox 360 and this is not going to be something that the average consumer wants. I won't deny that they won't sell but I cannot see them selling that many to Xbox 360 buyers since the PS3 starts to look attractive then. I also cannot see the HD-DVD player being used for games since that will really piss off all original Xbox 360 buyers, however it is early days yet and Microsoft may actually pull this off, since they do have deep pockets. They would still have to sell the HD-DVD add-on at a reasonable price (US$100 ???) otherwise they would be sued for unfair advantage and this is something Microsoft cannot afford.

      --
      There ain't no such thing as proprietary standards only proprietary formats. Standards are by definition open.
    13. Re:I love options by qurk · · Score: 1

      Heh. I have a very strong feeling that in the end this will be similar to PS vs N64. PS3 has what 10 times the game storage capacity of XBox 360...not an issue now....maybe an issue in a couple years? N64 may not have been such an utter flop (at least in my eyes) if it had more than a handfull of RPG's, and while obviously XBox 360 has RPG's... I dunno in the end I'm just a Microsoft hater and while I love Nintendo, N64 was a huge flop...

    14. Re:I love options by cluke · · Score: 1

      Some points:

      1. In the past, speculation on what capacity would be 'enough' has been proven to be foolish.
      2. People's uses for media expand to fill the space available. Although as you say, very few PS2 games came close to filling a DVD but the ones that did were flagship games such as GTA:SA and God of War. Can you imaging how a free-roaming game like GTA would be affected by disk changing?
      3. There are no indications that the media type will affect pricing of the games themselves. Whether blu-ray or DVD, they are going to be the same price. The same way multi-disk games are the same price as single disk games.

    15. Re:I love options by xtieburn · · Score: 1

      He may have been refering to the original X-Box's strange format disks. Even in dual layer the X-Box games would never exceed around 6Gig. I am not sure what the 360's format is like but id guess theyd want as much space as possible so this has probably changed.

      As for dual drive loading it almost certainly wouldnt work. Try transfering from two different drives to elsewhere at the same time on your computer. Even when they are on different chains and such the peak speed you will reach will be the same as if you were transfering off 1 (Due to the fact that the system will bottleneck the transfer at multiple points.) It could be a lot worse. With collisions you can make it take many times longer.

      There are ways of speeding this up with smarter hardware but its very unlikely that the 360 has this stuff built in to it.

    16. Re:I love options by xtieburn · · Score: 1

      'Maybe textures are a bad example'

      Not so much, take a look at kkrieger, the textures are coming along wonderfully and whats more they have massive levels of flexability in them. Instead of relying on a fixed image procedural textures can allow for every single use of them to be different. Note that kkrieger is just 96k in total and the 360 could effortlessly run something much more complicated than it.

      As for world generation Oblivion is already doing a lot of that. Everyones version of Oblivion will look quite different while you are walking around outdoors due to its mix of hand positioned and procedural generated technology.

      Procedural programming has been around for a very long time. It was fairly difficult to utilise succesfully though and required a fair degree of power to match up to its pre-created rival. However, I feel that it is impossible to ignore and it appears the industry agrees. With game development taking increasing amounts of time and requiring quite literally hundreds of people we need more dynamic ways of producing the content. Procedural may be more difficult to get up and working but when it is it will allow vast games to be made with no need to build large libraries of textures. (and quite possibly, sounds, levels, characters etc etc.)

    17. Re:I love options by jensen404 · · Score: 1

      The PS3 is only $100 more than the XBox (the $400 Xbox and the $500 PS3 have basically the same feature set, besides the disc drive)

      The $300 xBox is an icomplete system, because it doesn't allow you to save games. Who chooses the option of never saving?

  8. Wii is better than cd's by pawn63295 · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Umm the Wii will be better than ps3 and xbox. screw this HD-dvd bluray crap. the ability to hold more information on a disc for the game does nothing for the game unless the creators add extra content to fill the space. Therfore why would u want ungodly load times on a huge cd? I would rather have a few dvd's with bangin load times. O yeah keep spending 79 dollars for a damn xbox game. or 700 dollars on a ps3. No friggin way

    1. Re:Wii is better than cd's by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      *sigh*
      500 - 'striped' ver of 20 gig (unknown usable)
      600 - bigger hd hdmi outputs 60 gig (unknown usable) ps3
      both have blue ray, both are supposedly going to play all ps1, and ps2 games.

      400 - dvd 20 gig (13 usable) hd
      600 - dvd + HD/DVD no HDMI still 20 gig HD
      still after almost a year BC is still not there or else I bought the wrong 30 or so xbox games.

      180ish (no firm prices yet) for wii
      still dvd playback is ify.
      no 'next gen' movie format.
      interesting 'catalog' of games.

      SO as a movie player for new higher defs the ps3 actually is a 'better' buy at 500 (600 if you want hdmi). And actually equiv feature wise (plus the posiblity of bluray games) on ps3.

      For ps3 and 360 games are looking to set at the 50-60 dollar price point not the 79 you are saying. Do not know wii pricing yet. Probably in the same range.

      I am currently on the sides with wii and its new controler. I had the powerglove for the old NES. It was PAINFUL to use. I mean it actually hurt to use. Take your arm stick it out for about a half hour. You will see what I am talking about. Much like the touch screen on the ds, it is a gimick that usually adds little to gameplay. In some cases you feel like you are being ripped out of the game to perform some 'chore' and no longer playing. I bet many games do this at first.

      Also I never got the 'sony is propriatary so I am not getting a console'. SO is xbox, xbox360, ps2, and just about every other console that has ever come out. That people have figure out how to crack them by now just shows how silly drm can be.

      Bashing sony is currently fun. But I am ignoring this as I will own all three. I even own a psp which btw has WAY more games than a 360 and costs about half as much. Now if only those games were fun to play. And ms fixed its bc I would be happy.

  9. Does anyone on /. actually have a 360? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1, Troll

    It's just a shitty overpriced piece of hardware out of Redmond. Who does this appeal to on /.?

    1. Re:Does anyone on /. actually have a 360? by mrchaotica · · Score: 2, Funny

      It's not just "a shitty overpriced piece of hardware out of Redmond;" it's one that hasn't even been hacked to run Linux yet!

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    2. Re:Does anyone on /. actually have a 360? by blueZhift · · Score: 3, Informative

      Actually, I've got one and I think that it will appeal to anyone on /. who is sick of upgrading and troubleshooting their PC to play the latest PC games. Granted, that may be a small number around here, and I personally love problem solving, but it takes time away from playing, and of course, posting on /.! I've got mine connected to my PC monitor and so far it is working pretty well, I just need to find a decent USB KVM switch so that I can use my PC keyboard, the Belkin I tried was way too flaky. For better or worse, the 360 is likely going to become the next home for PC games. Microsoft's development tools have made the path the 360 pretty compelling.

      --
      To the making of books there is no end, so let's get started
    3. Re:Does anyone on /. actually have a 360? by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

      Actually, I've got one and I think that it will appeal to anyone on /. who is sick of upgrading and troubleshooting their PC to play the latest PC games. Granted, that may be a small number around here

      I agree. I'm sick of having to buy or upgrade my PC every time a new game I'm interested in comes out.

      --
      -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    4. Re:Does anyone on /. actually have a 360? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You don't have to 'keep' upgrading your PC to play the latest games - any more than you have to 'keep' buying the latest console if you want to play the latest console games. I upgrade my PC about once every two years. I sell all the old stuff on Ebay, and I average about £100 a year max. on these upgrades.
      £100 for a new graphics card, (every two years), sell the old one for £50. = £25 a year.
      New motherboard: £80ish, sell the old one for £30ish= £25 a year.
      New harddrive: £80 (not necessary for new games, I just managed to fill up the old one (don't we all), sell the old one for £30. £25 per year.

      etc.etc.

      It isn't that expensive at all.
      If you're a dumbass who buys a ready built, top of the range PC for £1,000, and then wonders why it's only worth £400 on Ebay in two years' time, then admittedly it's a problem.
      If you're able to upgrade your own PC (which is child's play nowadays, with the internet and all) then it's £100 a year.

      We are reaching the stage when more powerful graphics cards aren't necessarily needed - you can only take in so much information on a moving image. I don't need to play Painkiller at 1600 x 1200 resolution (and my Radeon 9700 Pro probably isn't up to it), as 1024 x 768 is MORE than enough. As for all the other shite that the graphics card manufacturers keep coming up with (Shader Model 3, or whatever it's called) - nobody actually NOTICES this stuff when you're shooting the crap out of monsters!
      Look at Doom 3 - the games almost pitch bloody black half the time, so you can't see anything! Who needs amazing graphics cards to show a 50% black screen?

      People are buying shit they don't need. And Microsoft are determined to keep fucking us over with their dumbass 'Aero' interface - what a brilliant idea that was - NOT!

      I was so unhappy with my PC loading up Windows quickly and not crashing - so Microsoft decided to make sure it continues to take a long time to load, and crashes, rather than make it load in five seconds, and never crash!

      Silly sods...

      And by the way - I can't stand console controllers. How can anybody play a FPS without a mouse and keyboard? They were almost tailor made for FPS games, and most other games. The lack of control is incredible when using a console controller.

  10. No kidding by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In other news: water is wet, the sun is hot, Sony likes money

  11. Not entirely true by aiken_d · · Score: 4, Informative

    I think the point is that there are no plans to ship games on HDDVD, which makes perfect sense because only a small percentage of 360 users will have the drive.

    Since the HDDVD drive itself is basically a transport and laser, and just sends the raw bytes to the 360 for processing, it seems like it would just take a software update of the 360 itself to enable HDDVD games, should the need arise in a year or three. There's no actual movie-specific logic or hardware in the HDDVD drive; no vc-1 decoder, no surround sound processing, nothing. The drive is just like a hard drive: the 360 tells it what sector to read, the drive reads it and provides the raw data with no interpretation.

    So it's not that the drive has some physical limitation that means that it can't be used for games, it's just that there are no plans to update the 360 to run games from the drive.

    -b

    --
    If I wanted a sig I would have filled in that stupid box.
  12. They have to do this by Skraut · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Otherwise you end up with the Sega CD situation. You've fractured your customer base to those that can play games on a HD-DVD, and those that can not. If by some miracle 35% of all 360 owners buy the HD-DVD add on, just how many games do you think would be produced for it. In this day and age where game production decisions are made by accountants, ("another Madden Game, Sure!", "It's not done yet? Put it on the shelves, we need the cash.") just how many bean counters are going to approve a game that 65% of the potential customers can't buy.

    --
    Introducing Microsoft Vacuum 1.0 The first Microsoft product that doesn't suck.
    1. Re:They have to do this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      But what's to stop them from releasing the games on both multiple DVD's and HD? Same thing happened with PC games on CDs vs. DVD for quite some time.

    2. Re:They have to do this by SameBrian · · Score: 1

      I remember back when I bought an X-Box. The one and only reason I picked it over a PS2 or a GameCube is that it had Halo. I really miss all the FFs and the Marios, but I wanted Halo.

      Long story short, if you release a good game on an HD-DVD, and require the player, that will draw in a userbase, and all of a sudden that 35% becomes a 60%. Sure, the other 40% will be mad, but they will still buy regular games (not to mention that they've already bought the console).

    3. Re:They have to do this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      It's already been fractured by the lack of a hard drive in one of the models.

    4. Re:They have to do this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh yeah, Then why didn't Dana Plato in a haunted house skyrocket the sega CD?
      She was hot!

    5. Re:They have to do this by Tony+Lechner · · Score: 0

      The problem is that that's way too risky; how do you know you have a successful product or not? If you end up having the next Halo, that's great. But if you end up having the next Daikatana, then you have the next Sega CD too...

  13. HD DVDs by the+computer+guy+nex · · Score: 1

    "Otherwise I can't see how Microsoft can really promote the drive with just the limited selection of movies around at the moment."

    Microsoft released this primarily to stop people from buying the PS3 because it was the only next-gen game machine capable of playing high definition movies.

    Customers now have the choice of a 360, 360+HDDVD, or PS3+BR.

  14. Exactly. by Travoltus · · Score: 1

    I'd pay for a HD-DVD system if it meant games were longer, had more depth, and gave me much larger worlds to explore. For that matter, give the machines 2gb of RAM (RAM is cheap now) to cache up surrounding areas while you move. That way when you load a new area you have all or much of it in memory already.

    Disc size is irrelevant to me unless I get more content. I want a game to last longer, and have more fun things to do. That's why 90% of my 360 playing time has been TES4: Oblivion (with time off to play Ninety Nine Nights for excitement's sake).

    --
    --- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
  15. Game load speed by jpardey · · Score: 1

    I don't think microsoft is doing everything they can to make games load faster. Sure, DVDs mean less data is loaded than HD-DVD, but then wouldn't it be better to put the games on CDs instead? And who needs more than 600 MB?

    --
    I have freaks! I did something right...
    1. Re:Game load speed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One, at equivalent quality levels, DVD read speeds roughly match CD read speeds. A 1x DVD player gets ~11 Mbps, vs. a 1x CD player which gets ~1.4 Mbps, roughly an 8:1 speed ratio. So an 8x DVD player would match a 64x CD player. Ergo, using CDs wouldn't speed anything up.

      Two, a *lot* of games need more than 600 MB. Have you seen the size of the textures and sound files for modern, complex games? They easily exceed 600 MB.

      (Note: I can't be sure if this is a joke/troll, so I'm giving you benefit of the doubt)

              -ShadowRanger

    2. Re:Game load speed by jpardey · · Score: 1

      Yeah, it was what was called a joke. I didn't read the article, but unless HD-DVDs are going to be slower than DVDs for the forseeable future, then the only way games would be slower to load would be if games had more content. So, by extension, I said that CDs would be EVEN BETTER.

      Does that make it clear for you?

      --
      I have freaks! I did something right...
  16. can't work, won't work ?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    From what I read, it's an HD-DVD add-on. Thus, it obviously doesn't change what the original console can physically do.

    Does this mean that at some point we can expect an xbox360 HDMI or DVI cable/output, that can support the HDCP content protection necessary to play back HD content protected movies?

    Or maybe someone has seen some other pics of the hddvd and there's an HDMI socket tucked round the back ?

    Maybe someone who knows more about electronics than me might have some idea whether such a cable could work, given the x360's existing hardware ?

    Coz if the HD picture is only available via the HD component outputs (which can't support HDCP), then as a movie player it's of no use whatsoever I reckon...

  17. Bundle by phorm · · Score: 1

    I suppose if they find games requiring a larger capacity in the future, one way to deal with that would be to bundle either a HD-DVD upgrade coupon with the game, or game coupon with the drive.

  18. Future uses/value by DorkusMasterus · · Score: 1

    This is, of course, not to say another peripheral or future version of the console might require such a thing

    My opinion, is that this perhipheral (should it survive the Blu-Ray battle) will be compatible with future consoles. It only makes sense. It gives added value to the drive (and people will still buy next-gen HD-DVD players, if only for tweak upgrades, so MS will likely still get good profits off the perhipheral despite age). But the point is, that this makes the drive that much more versatile in the future, than say the internal Blu-Ray drive of the PS3, because it's external.

    I don't of course, have any "proof" of this or anything, but it sure would make a lot of smart business and media sense, looking forward to next-next gen wars. YMMV, and in full disclosure, I'm likely not getting a PS3, but I'm definitely not an Xbox fanboy. I'm just thinking in terms of better strategy, having an external drive makes it more valuable if the format survives through the next iteration of gaming consoles, especially, if, like the 360, the next Xbox console will process the data through the hardware, and not through the external device.

    1. Re:Future uses/value by CreateWindowEx · · Score: 1
      By the time the next generation of consoles come out, a HD-DVD/BR-class drive should have become extremely cheap to manufacture (unless both formats completely fail to gain mass-market penetration), so there would be no good reason for Microsoft to make an drive-less "Xbox 720" that needs a clunky external drive (which probably won't match the styling of the new console) to do anything useful.

      If the 360 survives the run of this generation, I could see Microsoft releasing a new rev of the 360 with an internal HD-DVD (or perhaps even combo HD/BR), as it is probably cheaper for them to make one box with one drive in it, rather than two boxes with a cheap drive in one and an expensive drive in the other, plus the extra connector and cable.

      This is of course assuming that the next batch of consoles run primarily off of optical disks, not direct download, and I don't think anyone really knows how that will pan out. I think there's still a good chance that both HD-DVD and BR never make it past a niche market (bigger than SACD, but not as big as DVD) and everyone else gets their HD content via digital cable and video on demand, probably horribly compressed but "good enough" for the average joe.

      While external console peripherals tend to be losers, the one smart thing for Microsoft here is that even if both Microsoft and Sony are heavily subsidizing their high-defintion optical drives, Sony has to do it for every PS3, while Microsoft can assume that only a smaller fraction of their users will get the drive (and just get the value of making the Xbox 360 seem more valuable by "having that option"). These are interesting times, for sure.

    2. Re:Future uses/value by DorkusMasterus · · Score: 1

      You make excellent points, but my thinking of the drive for future systems is based upon this idea:
      That future games will be much larger (if they continue on the more poly-count, nicer graphics model that MS and Sony are following currently), and therefore, if we actually get (or really, even need HD games, not just resolution-upped games, like Sony and MS do), then those games will need a high-capacity delivery device. While you have a valid point that direct-download may be more viable, I can't imagine thousands of video game stores shutting their doors for good, because no one buys discs anymore. It may be a different thing altogether, and download definitely looks like a major component of future gaming platforms, but I still think you're going to see a boxed product that you can buy at a retail bricks and mortar store, for many many years to come, if not for at least the next two generations of consoles.

      Especially given, the European markets do not have ubiquitous broadband like America has. My personal prediction (YMMV) is that until we have pretty much nationwide and really world-wide ubiquitous WiFi broadband, you're not going to see a major console maker ditch the physical "game" format. But again, I do see direct download as the future. I think we just differ as to how long a span between now and that realized future may be.

  19. Just wondering... by richardwatson · · Score: 1

    Is anything stopping people from putting their PS3 games on DVD if they don't need the space of the Blu Ray disk?

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  20. I have an external drive for my PC by DrXym · · Score: 1

    It's clunky and plugs into the USB 2.0 port and needs it's own PSU. If that is how the HD DVD drive will work for XBox 360, I don't see what all the fuss is about. Games are never going to play off it and indeed no games maker would ever bother when the firmly ingrained default is the DVD format. It would have been far, far better to support HD DVD from the beginning. The XBox 360 is going to find itself hitting problems a few years down the road when games start demanding more capacity, or when the makers want to release a disc with multiple locales on it to save on production costs.

  21. Purpose by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    The same way Sony can promote an entire freakin' console even with the limited selection of movies around at the moment.

    The differnce is one of purpsose - the HD-DVD drive will only be able to play the very limited selection of titles out now. You'd have to be a very big Serenity fan indeed to play $200 just to play Firefly in HD.

    The PS3 on the other hand will be offering a box that can play both games and HD video - so while at first the selection of both will be somewhat limited, there is enough usefulness in the combination to be compelling especially when console owners buy systems for future games as well as current ones.

    Also another helpful factor is that the PS3 as gaming and HD video player costs you "only" $500, while the equivilent 360 would be $600 ($400 premium + $200 HD-DVD player).

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  22. Don't you mean certain "options"? by staticneuron · · Score: 1

    The problem with what MS points out is that "from software" the creators of Emchant arms has a blurb on gamespot about how they ar running out of space on thier DVD9 disc. So you would rather have the option of not having a next gen movie player... thats great. I would rather have the game devs have the option to have a bigger type of media so they can bring thier gaming goodness to me..... I mean... its really about the game right?

    1. Re:Don't you mean certain "options"? by DeadScreenSky · · Score: 1

      From Software actually complained before release that it was going to take multiple DVDs. These problems apparently all disappeared, since not only is the game only one DVD even the American version with two complete vocal tracks (and this is a long JRPG here) is still only a single disc.

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    2. Re:Don't you mean certain "options"? by staticneuron · · Score: 1

      They might have made big changes. This type of thing is not new. I have been hearing devs complain about space since the PSX and it's CD based console. At first devs didn't really know how to use the space and in less than 3 years they were complaining about it is not enough. I am one of those people who believe that certain devs would actually make great use of the extra space.

    3. Re:Don't you mean certain "options"? by DeadScreenSky · · Score: 1

      I'm sure it's just that they finally figured out how to compress things properly. To my understanding none of the game gives off a feeling of being cut up or missing stuff. MS admitted publically before launch that they were behind on offering the kind of compression tech to third parties they had planned. Team Ninja made similar complaints prior to DOA4's release and the game ended up fitting less than a full disc while still loaded with a good amount of HD video (30 or so minutes at a minimum). From's game also had a lot of HD video so I suspect the hold-up was better WMV compression software.

      I think some devs certainly could make great use of the extra space of HD-DVD or Blu-ray, but I also don't think it's worth the extra $200-300 it adds to the system cost. Not enough devs would take advantage of it, and some of that money would be better spent on something like fancier GPUs that most devs could actually take advantage of (which is basically what MS did with the X360, while Sony seems to have bundled a lower spec GPU with the PS3 that is basically an off-the-shelf PC part). The currently much lower speed of these HD drives is also a negative - Blu-ray only offers about half the peak read speed of the X360's DVD drive, though admittedly it will hit that peak a lot more often than the X360 will hit its own.

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    4. Re:Don't you mean certain "options"? by staticneuron · · Score: 1

      "I'm sure it's just that they finally figured out how to compress things properly. To my understanding none of the game gives off a feeling of being cut up or missing stuff." That's because they did a good job. One of my first realizations that games sometime were shipped unfinished was Soul Reaver: legacy of Kain. I remeber reading about all the swords and creatures that was supposed to be in the game. First they ran out of space then they ran out of time. I would have never known that they had those issues if they didn't go into detail about what was supposed to be in the game. I heard they were shipped in part 2.... but I never played it. I lost interest. " Team Ninja made similar complaints prior to DOA4's release and the game ended up fitting less than a full disc while still loaded with a good amount of HD video (30 or so minutes at a minimum). From's game also had a lot of HD video so I suspect the hold-up was better WMV compression software." You're telling me a fighting game (Don't get me wrong... I like DOA4) with only 30 minutes of HD video barely fitting on a DVD9 disk is an example of how a typical JRPG should have no problems fitting on a dvd9 disc? I am going to take thier original comments at face value and hope that they aren't saying anything because they found a work around. If they had to cut anything chances are you would not see it in the final product. The only time you will notice oddities in a games story or graphics is when a dev runs out of time. "I think some devs certainly could make great use of the extra space of HD-DVD or Blu-ray, but I also don't think it's worth the extra $200-300 it adds to the system cost. Not enough devs would take advantage of it, and some of that money would be better spent on something like fancier GPUs that most devs could actually take advantage of (which is basically what MS did with the X360, while Sony seems to have bundled a lower spec GPU with the PS3 that is basically an off-the-shelf PC part). The currently much lower speed of these HD drives is also a negative - Blu-ray only offers about half the peak read speed of the X360's DVD drive, though admittedly it will hit that peak a lot more often than the X360 will hit its own." No one expects the devs to take advantage of it at first but hands down I believe that most devs will take advantage of blu ray entering into the consoles second gen cycle. As far as the lower spec of the shelf GPU as rumored to here, http://news.teamxbox.com/xbox/9126/PlayStation-3-G PU-Less-Powerful-than-GeForce-7800/ maybe you will be happy to know that that statement wasn't true and had to be recanted here, http://news.teamxbox.com/xbox/9132/PlayStation-3-G PU-More-Powerful-than-GeForce-7800/ Still the PS3 GPU pushes higher numbers and the 360 GPU is more efficent with the USA, keep in mind that the USA is going to be optimized by DX10 functions. It turns out that direct X is owned by Microsoft (shocking isn't it) the USA might not have any advantage on the PS3 because of how the games are made on that system.

  23. Can you use Keyboard/Mouse with the 360? by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    out of box? I remember hearing Microsoft made it a point of not makeing a Keyboard/Mouse combo for the original XBox to keep things fair on Xbox live. There's a 3rd party adapter, but it's not perfect ( I don't think you can invert the y axis for example ). Still, If you could use keyboard/mouse then I won't bother upgrading my PC ever again :)

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    1. Re:Can you use Keyboard/Mouse with the 360? by hollismb · · Score: 1

      You can plug in a USB keyboard to use for messages and navigation, and whatnot. Pretty much anything that may involve typing, but not for gameplay. No mouse support at all.