Apple Admits to Occasional Excessive Work Hours

rev_media writes "After Apple's release of a report on the labor conditions in their Chinese factories, many took issue with the deliberately vague wording used in the statement. The BBC is now reporting that Apple has admitted to 'excessive' working hours in some locations, and they would be ensuring that a 'normal' 60-hour work week will be adhered to from now on." From that article: "'We found no instances of forced overtime and employees confirmed in interviews that they could decline overtime requests without penalty,' said Apple in a statement. The firm said there were 'overtime limit exceptions in unusual circumstances' and that it supported a healthy work-life balance. But it did not specify what the triggers for 'unusual circumstances' were and what upper limit it set on working hours. Mr Kuczkiewicz said Apple had not asked workers what they preferred - a decent wage or minimum wage and overtime."

Comments

Interesting, but ...

[Iron (III) Chloride]

It's interesting how I keep getting reports of factory workers being constantly over-worked in China. It's a good idea to make sure laborers have enough rest, but as a [former] Chinese national and one of full Chinese ethnicity, I should say that the work ethic there is so strong relative to many North American and European countries that this is more of a non-issue. I don't know, but have Slashdotters heard much about "Asian parents"? As a high-schooler, that concept is one of the most frequently repeated ones in my [predominantly Asian] high school. One last point is that this article is ridiculously late, but that's to be expected.

Re:Interesting, but ...

[NexFlamma]

While it's true that there is a certain cultural bias to work harder in many Asian cultures, one has to question whether it's an inherent trait, or if it's the result of living in a part of the world that is often exploited for the good of wealthier nations.

Do Asian people work harder because they have a much higher work ethic than Westerners, or do they have a much higher work ethic because the only jobs available for them are ones in which they have to work insane amounts of hours with little pay in order to provide Americans with luxury items (such as iPods)?

Re:Interesting, but ...

[1u3hr]

I should say that the work ethic there is so strong relative to many North American and European countries that this is more of a non-issue. I don't know, but have Slashdotters heard much about "Asian parents"?

I live in Hong Kong, I've visited Chinese factories. There is nothing about "work ethic" as perhaps practised by Chinese immigrants trying to get ahead. Chinese factories are the prototypical sweatshops; many would easily pass for Dickensian "Satanic mills". When there's a deadline, the staff are told they have compulsory, unpaid overtime. The doors are often locked. (There have been many tragedies when fires break out and the exits are all locked.) Wages are often withheld. Troublemakers (eg, union organisers) may be arrested by police or just beaten up.

As a high-schooler, that concept is one of the most frequently repeated ones in my [predominantly Asian] high school.

Thank your parents for your opportunity. Few Chinese have your luck.

Re:Interesting, but ...

[rm999]

working hard != superior life

Most people intuitively know this. Working *too* much is a personality disorder. The fact that you see it in
Chinese-American culture does not necessarily mean it is inborn in the Chinese race.

What I am getting at is that you are racist (even if it's your own race) if you think this is OK due to the fact that they are Chinese. The fact that people work this hard should not be something to be proud of, and should not have to be justified.

Re:Interesting, but ...

[NexFlamma]

"What I am getting at is that you are racist (even if it's your own race) if you think this is OK due to the fact that they are Chinese. The fact that people work this hard should not be something to be proud of, and should not have to be justified."

Not something to be proud of? Here's an example for you; a man owns a store about a block away from my house. He's Korean and since the store belongs to his family, the only employees are himself, his wife and his daughter. The store stays open 24 hours a day, meaning they each have to work an 8 hour shift every day of the week (or, more likely, someone has to work quite a bit more than that).

I had a conversation with him about a month ago about how hard I thought this must be, but he disagreed. He was terribly proud of how his whole family banded together to run the store and work such ridiculous hours in order to keep it going. His 16 year old daughter (a high school student) spent every day working, as well as studying and they had nothing but adoration and pride for her.

Where are you from that tremendous work ethic is not something to be admired?

Re:Interesting, but ...

[nexarias]

While it's true that there is a certain cultural bias to work harder in many Asian cultures, one has to question whether it's an inherent trait, or if it's the result of living in a part of the world that is often exploited for the good of wealthier nations.

I just want to point out that you're offering a misleading frame of two alternatives -- strong work ethic as innate character or third-world conditions. It's actually more like the asian culture, or the asian spirit that forges this sort of hard working mentality. However, it's probably true that the poverty, massive lower-class (farmer population) and the dire living conditions select for the dilligent. Then, that sort of mentality is drilled into descendants.

An example of cultural effect would be Japan: Japanese salary men don't live in conditions anywhere near third-world nations; nor are they exploited by first-world nations. Their working hours are legendary, just like their suicide rates. I've heard that it comes from their historical roots in the samurai, always chasing for perfection..

The hard-working stereotype of oriental asians in the West is also explainable by the fact that immigrants or visitors (like students) to the West are only a specific subset of the asian population. Immigrants are usually middle-class or higher, with well-educated parents who likely came through with solid work ethics in their earlier life. Foreign asian students who go over to Canadian/US universities are usually rather bright (or very rich). As a result, the stereotype conceived is probably not at all a close representative of the general asian population.

Re:Interesting, but ...

[Daengbo]

Working for your own business cannot be compared to working those same conditions for others. Every business owner works hours similar to those you've stated. I used to worh 3-4 months straight for my business. People who work convenience stores near me open at 7 and close 11 to midbight every day, seven days a week, with only the owner working. Obviously, they find it better for them than walking out and finding a job in the community, for whatever the motivation.

Re:Interesting, but ...

[Anonymous Coward]

His daughter is lucky, he's probably already lined up several hard-working men to marry her to.

I, on the other hand worked one job through highschool, two jobs through fulltime college, and all I got from it was a degree, a 50-hour-a-week job and two discoveries:
1) women look at you funny when your idea of a romantic date is a moonlit stroll through the park at 3AM since everything is closed when you get out of work.
2) now that I'm out of college, the only women I can find to date are the local drunks hanging out at the bar.

Leisure time is more than just world of warcraft, it's having a life.

Re:Interesting, but ...

[MoneyT]

America, a first-world country where many of us realize that slaving your life away at a menial job is not the end all and be all of existence.

Or conversely, America, a first-world country where many of us don't believe that any job is worth putting serious effort and time into and no one has any pride in the work they do any more because their material toys have become the end all and be all of existance.

Did it ever occur to you that 8 hours of work per day might be affecting her performance at school? That they might be tranding off her long-term success and happiness for a short term financial gain?

Without knowing any more of the situation, but knowing similar people I would lay very good odds that no only is she at the top of her class but she will be far more wildly succesful by the time she graduates college (assuming she goes) than 85% of her class mates.

Re:Interesting, but ...

[Shajenko42]

Or conversely, America, a first-world country where many of us don't believe that any job is worth putting serious effort and time into and no one has any pride in the work they do any more because their material toys have become the end all and be all of existance.

Or, because we see that hard work is often not rewarded, and people are laid off for reasons that have nothing to do with how much they put into the job.

You can only get ripped off by companies so much before you start doing the minimum necessary to keep the job.

60 hours = normal

[JustNiz]

Holy crap. Apple consider 60 hours a week normal?
Companies are pushing the human rights back into the dark ages. Where will it end?

Re:60 hours = normal

[1u3hr]

It's often hard for middle-class Westerners to grasp, but it's the exception for humans not to work constantly for needed resources,

No, quite untrue. Developed countries working hours have increased markedly in the last 50 years. The average hunter-gatherer had to work maybe 20 hours a week to have a comfortable lifestyle. However, third-world labourers get both long hours and low pay as their countries industrialise, maybe the next generation will get a share of the wealth. Now they're just working harder than their parents and barely surviving.

Re:60 hours = normal

[1u3hr]

Excuse me? A "comfortable" lifestyle? This assumes that you call dying by your mid-30's, constantly foraging and hunting for food, living in temporary shelters or caves, and other such primitive accoutrements "comfortable" living.

No it doesn't. Yeah, life was tough, but not as bad as you say. I can't give you sources, this is stuff I read years ago, so doubt if you want; but many hunter gatherer societies had a pretty easy time, few diseases because of low population density, healthy diet, and while infant mortality was higher than ours, once past infancy they could expect to live to their 50s. (Better than Russians these days...) But how easy their life was wasn't my major point, it was your assertion than the number of hours worked has always been as high as it is now. That is quite untrue. Even agricutural societies usually had times of heavy work, like harvest or planting, balanced by weeks or months of comparative leisure (unless of course they were drafted by the aristocracy to join an army, build a pyramid, etc).

Re:60 hours = normal

[pimpimpim]

Indeed, shocking! And how can something excessive from 60 hours still support a healthy work-life balance?

From another point, these people are probably building together your precision apple hardware. One might wonder why apple has no reputation for the reliability of its hardware.

Actually this reminds me of the story I heard from a factory owner that moved from korea to china. Labour there is cheap, but the education was a bit lower, and the people worked sloppier (no wonder, how is your work concentration after 10 hours). In the end he needed 3 times the amount of employees and had a doubled amount of faulty products that had to be discarded before leaving the factory.

The solution to this is higher education of the chinese people, which is luckily for them hapenning (although the amount of places in university is till lower than the amount of people that want and could get in). But in the end, this will mean they get more expensive as employees and the benefit of outsourcing to china will be much smaller. By that time Chinese companies will probably be able to get a big part of the marketshare in the world, leaving the original companies in troubles. I won't mind too much as long as I can still buy quality products in stead of crap, no matter where it's made.

A similar thing happened to Ireland. Labour there was very cheap about a decade ago. IT and car companies went there (AMD, some memory factory etc.) and in due time, wages went up. Now, the movement is more towards eastern europe, but won't be a matter of time before the same will happen there.

I don't oppose all this outsourcing when it comes to better living conditions for the people in countries who can use the improvement. What I do oppose is the fact that products made by outsourcing are still as expensive as before, and the gain goes only to a very small point of people. Not to the costumers, not to the employees, but to management and stockholders. This will eventually widen the gap between poor and rich worldwide, which is not something we need at the moment.

Re:60 hours = normal

[gnasher719]

'' Holy crap. Apple consider 60 hours a week normal? ''

We don't know what Apple considers normal. We know that Apple is willing to interfere with the business of a supplier if that supplier makes it workforce work more than 60 hours a week. Next time you have to go to a hospital, ask the doctor who is treating you how many hours a week he or she is working, just to get a bit of perspective. Or maybe you have a look on the internet how many hours employees at EA have been working to supply you with the latest video games.

Most importantly, instead of reading the BBC page (or without bothering to read anything), go to the Apple website where you find Apple's report that this is all based on: You will find that the highest number of complaints by employees is against the fact that sometimes there isn't enough overtime!

Wow

[Anonymous Coward]

Famously, if you opened up the data fork of the System File in Mac OS 7.1 through 7.5 in a hex editor, you would find the string "Help! Help! We're being held prisoner in a system software factory!"

Who knew that was for real? :O

In china

[resonte]

I'm currently living/working in Guangzhou China () for my summer holiday.

I've noticed in the factory here you are expected to work overtime not by your boss but by your peers. It is common to see most people work 1 or 2 hours overtime, sometimes until 9pm. I end up feeling guilty if I leave at the offical time (5pm) because I am normally the only one to do so.

But you've got to take into account the population density and lack of social security, the wages here aren't the best, and if you don't perform well enough you can easily get replaced, so you've got to make the most of what you get, due to this it's become the cultural behaviour.

Though wide differences between wages is common here, the IT supervisor can earn more than 10 times than the IT staff even though his work isn't that much difficult.

60 hours a week normal in the military

[Aaron England]

With increasing manning shortages and prolonged deployments, many service members find themselves working 60 hours a week at home and 72 hours deployed. It's the new normal.

It is what these people *need*

[physicsphairy]

Sixty hours is only bad if you're a lazy pampered American like me and your number one concern is having enough time to level your character in World of Warcraft.

If instead your number one concern is that your family doesn't starve, or making enough money to emmigrate from the oppressive regime in which you live, and the amount of money you make is proportionate to the number of hours you work, you would generally like to work as many hours as humanly possible. I knew at least one guy (in America) who used pull over a hundred hours a week working at an oil rig. It was quite dangerous to boot, but his reason for doing it was just the extra padding in his bank account, not because he had an emaciated wife and toddler back at home.

The last thing people in developing nations need is you telling them that they can't have a job except at 10 bucks an hour, or that they can't work for more than 40 hours a week, or that it's only legal for companies to come in and provide them with a way of obtaining food, medicine, and education (i.e. money) if they also provide full health care, dental, and college tuition for the kids.

I'm not saying to give companies free reign. Some things are clearly morally despicable. But frankly speaking, you are not helping these people by being indignant when they are not afforded the same accomodations that you are. That is the one asset they have that allows them to compete for jobs against Joe Westerner (whose parents could afford to get him quality education and is the preferable employee at comparable wages).

Don't let corporations get away with complete crap, but please don't have people starve for the sake of your armchair idealism either.

Re:It is what these people *need*

[kfg]

. . . please don't have people starve for the sake of your armchair idealism either.

It's the new White Man's Burden, borne stoicly by people who have never had to actually fend for themselves a single day in their lives.

KFG

Re:It is what these people *need*

[polar red]

That idealism tells me a person should be able to sustain himself on a 40hr a week job, and if he doesn't, his pay is not enough.

Re:It is what these people *need*

[kfg]

But as has been pointed out earlier in this discussion, and as I've heard elsewhere, the hunter-gatherers "worked" something around 20 hours per week.

You've never lived as a hunter-gatherer. I have. Yes, it's true that they actually have much more leisure time than people in industrial nations. What you may not realize is that their leisure time is typically spent productively. Idle hands are the devil's plaything.

We spin and weave for a hobby. They spin and weave because if they don't they go naked. It is not uncommon to see women spinning while walking over to a neighbor's house.

The best living I've ever had though was in a semihunter gatherer society, but with just enough independent money that I didn't have to go out in the fishing boats. Wealth is having more people working for you than you have to work for; and that's the way it is. "Western" wealth is built entirely on large groups of people working for it while providing comparitively little back.

Of course the fishermen, while going out and laboring, not to mention risking their lives, thought about what they were doing as mainly a social event, getting together with the guys and doing "guy things." Not "work."

But if you wish to lift them up to you, I'm afraid you'll have to lower yourself to reachability.

It seems to me that we may only really be "wired" to work, say, 20 hours per week on a sustained basis.

Sounds like a bit of an overworked hell to me really, if by "work" you mean "job." If by "work" you mean something like "directed activity" I'd go out of my fucking skull with bordom. I "work" more than that for entertainment.

KFG

Re:Ok look...

[kfg]

Is it moral? No.

What is immoral about survival?

KFG

Good Effort

[catwh0re]

I think their(apple's) investigation is a good effort from a company which ultimately only has the ability to cancel the contract with their chinese vendor(these factories are not apple run, and these factories produce products for more companies than just apple computer.)

Considering that many other products that people purchase from china are made from labour which has not be placed under the same workers-rights rigor that apple outlays in their vendor contract, this is a good case of a global company doing what they can to ensure adequet working standards in a country that is rife with human exploitation. You can almost decide with certainty that something you own has been produced as a result of human labour exploitation, occurances often go by without the knowledge of the even the staff member; There is a lot of difficulty in ensuring proper work practices in these mega factories (many staff demand excessive overtime hours to get ahead of the rat race.) Take for example that this factory assembles iPods, there is no way of knowing, without investigation, if the screens being used in the assembly of the iPods are made in another factory where labour issues are more common.

So while others may pick at Apple's summary report for leaving areas grey, I still feel this is by far a more advanced effort in ensuring factory workers rights than what many other companies do. (Particularly the fashion and small parts industries.)

+60hr work/wk on apple products

[atarione]

it's like my worst nightmare

oh they meant building them

well that is almost as bad

Yes, but....

[crhylove]

While I agree that this is an issue, I can only wonder about whether Dell, Gateway, and every other PC manufacturer is guilty of the same. I can't imagine the motherboard factories, hard drive factories, video card factories, RAM factories, case factories, and sound card factories don't use some kind of extraordinarily cheap and exploitive work force at at least one of their plants or offices. I'm against it anywhere, and against not staying competitive in the local labor market with healthy work environments as well. I'm all about philanthropy, but singling out one of probably thousands of manufacturies guilty of this seems wierd.

"I mean, how far the rabbit hole do you wanna go here?"*

rhY

*Quote stolen shamelessly from: http://www.myspace.com/wtc_7

Apple are the cause of this particular problem

[weijiao]

Chinese labour law is very clear on this issue and the comments attributed to Apple are laughable. It is unlawful for employees in China to work 60 hours per week, even if they request it. Chinese law provides for a 40 hour working week with quite limited legal overtime. Apple have chosen to permit these unlawful working hours.

It is very unlikely that Apple is unaware of this and this is just exploitation of workers by Apple's subcontractors.

900 million Chinese earn less than USD 300 per year and yes, that is poverty. You cannot live comfortably on that amount in China. No-one wants to work 60 hours per week, but it is not difficult to persuade someone to do that, contrary to the law, if they are very poor. That is why they do it - it has nothing to do with the Asian work ethic.

Apple should be ashamed of itself for participating in this exploitative conduct, and then trying to gloss over it.

Re:Apple are the cause of this particular problem

[johnsonlam]

Any Chinese here except me?

Everybody knows the China law "usually" doesn't mean anything, the Capitalist around the world build factories to torture the China workers ... long working hours, bad working environment, salary below living standard, lack of proper training ... as I know the recent years some improvements were made, but far behind the western standard.

Someone want Apple in trouble so they magnified Apple, but not only Apple did this, why not stop all the factories but only picky at Apple? Just like bible story in John 8-7: Whichever one of you has committed no sin may throw the first stone at her.

Hypocritical is the word to describe the man releasing this, if he got so much free time, take a look at the Lenovo, Dell, Acer, Asus ... etc. Which one have the right to stone Apple?

Re:Apple are the cause of this particular problem

[Rich0]

I'm confused. Guy wants to work more and make more money, when he's currently dirt poor. Apple is (you allege) circumventing a tyrannical system that doesn't let the guy do it... but it's Apple that's being exploitative? What about the Chinese government? They're being humane by preventing the guy from working overtime? Gee, thanks.

Ok, perhaps a better example of what you're getting at:

I'm confused. Black guy has no education and can't find anybody willing to pay him even minimum wages. His poor family is starving, and he feels like he is no use to them at all. One day a white guy walks up to him and sees that he looks reasonably strong, and that with a little training he might pay off as a construction worker. However, he doesn't want to invest all kinds of money in training just to have the guy get a job somewhere else. So, he makes the black guy an offer written up on a contract - he will be paid $40,000 in cash in exchange for ownership of his body/mind/labor/etc. He explains that the black guy shouldn't worry about harsh working conditions - it is in the interest of his owner to protect his investment. And, the money would fix his family's problems - $40k is probably more money than the guy would bring home in his entire life the way things are currently going.

But then some oppressive federal agent comes in and says that the 13th amendment prevents this poor black entrepreneur from selling the one asset he has, and solving his family's problems...

Maybe the 13th amendment was passed because allowing people to enter into unrestricted labor contracts had been tried before, and it didn't work.

Re:Apple are the cause of this particular problem

[JPriest]

"Maybe the 13th amendment was passed because allowing people to enter into unrestricted labor contracts had been tried before, and it didn't work."

But of course, an exception is granted to the United States military. I was with the National Guard and a few years back we had a stateside security mission. I spend 13 months working my ass off for 80 hours a week as a salaried employee. As a civilian in the US I have no problem working a 70 or 75 hour work week because at least as a civilian I get paid for my time.

Maybe conditions in China leave something to be desired, but there is nothing wrong with a 60+ hour work week as long as anything over 40 is overtime.

Re:Apple are the cause of this particular problem

[Rich0]

The 13th amendment also bans indentured servitude - which was entered into on a contract basis. The effects were similar to slavery even if there was technically a difference.

History as an RTS

[daemonenwind]

How many of you have played an RTS game?

No one gets to start off with a modern industrial complex and a space program. You start out with a few poor villagers. Then, those villagers work at building up a Civilization, stopping at points which involve a fair amount of labor.

There was a time when the USA was also a dumping ground for cheap labor. Our grandparents through great-great-grandparents worked very hard at dirty jobs for long hours.

Then someone got the "Organized Labor", "Industrial Revolution", "Clean Air Act" upgrades. Those laid the groundwork for the "40-hr Work Week", "Military-Industrial Complex" and "Civic Green Space" upgrades. That, in turn, unlocked "Space Program", which allowed us to advance our Civilization to the Information Age.

The US has managed to do a pretty good job assembling a Rush strategy to catch up to civs that got a headstart on us.

China is turtling right now....give it time, it'll get its upgrades.

Addendum:

[kfg]

Possible exception may have been Tibet. . .

Tibet was a theocracy with an upper class who did no work, but lived on the backs of others, although many of the upper class were themselves slaves of the theocracy in their own way.

It wasn't necessarily a very nice place, but the Chinese have certainly worked no improvement on it.

For bias purposes I'll point out that I am a lifelong Buddhist.

KFG

Re:DORMITORIES = No sex life and no family life

[Quila]

Imagine yourself working 12 hours a day in a factory and sleeping in a dormitory in the same fucking factory! No intimacy, no sex life, no love, no children, no family life,...now dare tell me this is not a soulless slave life!!!

Except for the factory part, it kind of reminds me of the Army.

Re:Ok look...

[NtroP]

Agreed. -- WTF!

I have often worked 60 hours a week - and I'm not paid ANY overtime! Yes, I have the choice to NOT work extra hours, but then my job would not get done. And I don't want to hear about "working smarter" or "hiring more people". I'm working as smart as I can and my staff keeps getting cut. We have a 1000+ to 1 computer to technician ratio and "management" thinks that's fine (as long as *they* get fast response). It's bullshit and everyone knows it, but it's reality and it's the job I get paid to do. I could easily get another job, but I like what I'm doing and have decided to stay where I am. I'd be REALLY pissed it some fsking do-gooder tried to tell my employer that I'd be forced to stop working after 40 hours (although overtime would be nice but exempt employees don't get that).

My daughter is saving for college. She works 2, back-to-back, full-time jobs during the summer so that she doesn't have to borrow money to pay for tuition. That's way more than 60 hours a week with NO overtime. She's only 17. I'm not sure if that is legal in my state for someone her age, but they can piss off. It's her choice. She bought her own car, pays her own insurance and manages her social life around her responsibilities. She'd be crushed if she was forced to back off on her hours because some lazy, loser bureaucrat told her she was working too hard. She'd love to be making twice what she's making, but she's only 17 and they don't pay "kids" with few skills much more than minimum wage. So she does what she can and sacrifices her social time to reach her goals. We've talked about what happens when classes starts and she's agreed that studies come first, so she'll quit one of her jobs.

If the workers in China are being mistreated and are FORCED (by their employer) to work more than 40 hours then, yes, I have a problem with that. But if they truly have the option to work AND they get paid overtime for it, let them have it! Has anyone compared their (the "abused Chinese") annual incomes against the other incomes and work hours for others in that area? I'd really like to know. Because if they are working more hours and still making less then there is a problem. However, if they are making proportionally more then SHUT THE FUCK UP and let them work!

I didn't grow up in America. I grew up in a 3rd-world country. The whole mind-set of society there was different back then (and admittedly, much more "primitive"). Where I grew up, you started working in the fields for several hours a day when you turned 7! When you turned 12 you were expected to look for a wife and be working full-time. Turning 12 was the rite-of-passage to adulthood and you got all the responsibilities AND privileges of adulthood. We kids didn't know any different. We looked forward to each phase of life with anticipation. We weren't brought up to expect to "play" until we were 18 and then start our adult life.

Looking back on it from the perspective of a parent raising kids in America, I can see that that culture and those attitudes would never fly here. But I don't see use as being "abused" as kids. I received my first weapon (modified and "safed") when I was 6. I went on my first "hunt" with the men when I was 7 (mostly along to do the "women's work" (read grunt-work) and to learn the ropes) - kind of like an apprenticeship, I guess. When I was 12, I went along as a full-fledged member of the group. There was no "screwing around". I'd been raised my whole life to be responsible. Today, I can't imagine trusting a 12 year old with that kind of responsibility. Of course we don't raise them to be responsible. We raise them to never take responsibility and to expect to have fun until they're "adults".

My point in all this is that it's easy to judge one culture from the perspective of another, and in doing so do great harm to their way of life. There are cases where abuse is really taking place and, when found, it must be dealt with. But c'mon. A 60-hour week, with overtime? I'd take that. At least give me the option.