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Mozilla Developers Invited to Redmond
savio13 writes "Sam Ramji, Microsoft's director of its Open Source Software Lab has invited 4 Mozilla developers to spend 4 days with Microsoft's Vista Readiness ISV team. The invite can be found on mozilla.dev.planning and was posted on Saturday (Aug. 19). Schroepfer replied by indicating that Microsoft and the Moz guys are already in contact via email and will follow up on the offer there. This is interesting because Sam posted the offer in a public forum (and indicated that he'd sent a PM, but was posting in case they had an @microsoft.com email filter). Sam also made a point of stating that the Vista ISV Readiness offer is typically only for commercial ISVs."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It's_a_trap Seriously, watch out! Pretty soon, we'll have no more coders!
You're all bastards!
Four Mozilla developers missing, story at eleven.
It was a joke! When you give me that look it was a joke.
"If you go to Z'ha'dum, you will die."
Where were you when the voynix came?
Watch out for chairs!
But seriously, I think that Microsoft is trying to get third party OSS browser support for Vista so that they can announce it as a feature. "Look, we have great support for the BEST free browsers out there! We are cool and friendly!" It has become obvious to Microsoft that OSS is not going away and that they need to embrace some of the popular choices in an effort to stem the flow away from Linux, etc. Seems pretty obvious to me.
My humor is probably your flamebait
The Mozilla developers will be carried along a corridor on a conveyor belt in extreme comfort and past murals depicting Mediterranean scenes, towards the rotating knives. The last twenty feet of the corridor are heavily soundproofed.
Slashdot Burying Stories About Slashdot Media Owned
Hopefully this invitation is simply a consequence of that Microsoft has (finally) realized that there is no way they will be able to keep up with OSS in the long run. Maybe they have finally realized that sooner or later, given enough time, every commercial application will have a free counterpart.
It's a trick - get an axe!
Be amazed at the open source research lab, the award winning cafeteria, the empty lot out back where Microsoft employee Vinnie "The Bonecrusher" Vetallini will explain in intricate detail Microsoft's browser strategy.
I'll be honest, we're throwing science against the wall to see what sticks. -Cave Johnson
"Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer" (c. 6th century BC)
Seriously folks, what if a popular product like FF decided to drag feet on supporting a new MS product. Pretend we're talking a year from now and MS is trying to roll out Vista and the 40% of the population that will be using FF by then balks because FF won't run properly. Extremely unlikely but an interresting though nontheless expecially when you recall the days when MS would break competitors apps running on Windows.
"God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon, Marshal of France - speaking truth to power
If Vista is written modularly and has a clean, well documented API then why would an application development team need any help from the Vista development team to get their application working on Vista?
--------------------
Steve Stites
It's Bill Gates is gaurded by more than just Orcs. There is evil there that does not sleep, and the Great WGA is ever watchful. It is a barren wasteland riddled with fire, ash, and Starbucks coffee, the very air you breathe is a poisonous fume. Not with ten thousand could you do this. It is folley.
My Computer Music Tutorial Videos
Opera was invited to MS recently as well.... http://my.opera.com/dstorey/blog/show.dml/419834
it is the kinda trap were they offer to give you butt loads of money to come work for them instead.
actually I am happy to see you, however that is in fact a banana in my pocket.
Acute Chair Deceleration to the Head syndrome.
Pretend we're talking a year from now and MS is trying to roll out Vista and the 40% of the population that will be using FF by then balks because FF won't run properly.
Wow - food must taste better where you live too!
Guess what will be on the private plane that flies them to Redmond.
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
Move Sig. For great justice.
"That's not an operating system..."
This guy's the limit!
Not to get too serious here, but this is a perfect example of a situation where MS can't win. Invite the folks up? "It's a trap! They'll steal your code, kill you, etc." Don't invite them up? "When is MS going to treat OSS developers like any one else, Firefox has many users, they should get the same respect as any other org."
Ah slashdot... can't live with it, pass the beer nuts.
Now I'm going to have Admiral Ackbar's quote in my head all day.
The coders that went there have very likely seen some code that is currently "open" but will eventually be closed. And it's very likely it will influence the way they code on Firefox and Seamonkey. So I expect that a few years from now MS legal will come-a-callin' and do what SCO did only they will succeed because they have more money. Smart move there Einteins. This is why it is absolutely imperatif that no one in the FOSS camp ever agrees to look at code that is proprietary. As soon as you do, you're damaged goods.
-"...bad old ideas look confusingly fresh when they are packaged as technology" - Jaron Lanier (Digital Maoism on Edge.o
What I never understood is the whole browser wars thing, how does MS make money off IE? It's free to download. I guess this signals the end of the browser wars, with both sides sitting down to work together(interesting indeed).
Maybe they realize that Firefox is a good product and IE isn't actually making them any money so why not support Firefox.
Or maybe it's just a PR stunt in light of all the recent Vista scare stuff. They wanted us to see it; I'm sure they could have contacted mozilla somehow without the public knowing. The fact is they want us to see this for some reason.
Never. Too much NIH (Not Invented Here) syndrome for that. I think one of the other posters is right. FireFox is getting popular and if it doesn't work with Vista (either intentionally or not) they will get tons of complaints ("Vista broke my InternetFox thing", "They are trying to crush FireFox", etc.). FireFox is so popular that they have to make sure it works. The only difference between it and some other program they'll do that for (Sims/Sim 2) is that FireFox is FOSS so we hear about it (where they have done this with Sims/Sims 2 and we don't hear a peep).
Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
What, you don't think they read the comments here? Given the attitude, I'd probably think the same thing too if i were in their place.
> What if they're thinking anbout replacing the IE render engine with Geko + ActiveX extensions?
Absolutely never ever ever going to happen. Even discounting the IE features that MS wants to keep, even discounting NIH syndrome, Microsoft owns the IE codebase (modulo a few patent trolls). Microsoft doesn't want to put anything in Windows that it can't alter at will. Yes Gecko's open source, but they don't exactly want to fork it and deal with the developer relations donnybrook that would ensue.
As for ActiveX, MS had already removed almost every AX control from its site, leaving only various update managers. And the Eolas debacle has pretty much tilted them all the way toward going 100% DHTML/AJAX for rich content. Underneath, it's still COM controls, sure -- Flash and even the Java "plugin" are actually ActiveX controls -- but anyone still beating on the ActiveX drum is showing they have no imagination with which to update their repertoire of trolling.
Firefox is big and important enough now that some folks at Microsoft want more familiarity, including making sure it doesn't break on Vista, because depending on how it breaks, it can make Vista appear broken itself (or yes, reveal where it actually is broken). The speculation you're reading about "traps" is just the usual grist for the Two-Minute Hate around here.
Done with slashdot, done with nerds, getting a life.
This is sad. This comment is not a troll, not a flamebait, just an observation.
Microsoft has taken some serious steps to clean itself up over the last year or so. As a Linux/Apache/PHP/Python/Perl/MySQL/Postgres evangelist, I always root for open source, but I respect Microsoft's omnipresence in the tech world.
That said, it's really sad to see that 98% of the comments here are based on distrust, hatred, and bad jokes. This is a huge move: Microsoft, for once, finally understanding that open source has a place and that NOT working with them spells trouble for them.
So, please people, retire the lame wisecracks. This is one of many times you'll see Microsoft bent by the immense power and will of open source!
Aren't there already plenty of Firefox users who are using the latest Vista betas? If Firefox didn't work in Vista, there'd be lots of bug reports about it already.
What a fool believes, he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.
I just got an email from Microsoft support. This was included:
Please note, since this support request will be handled using Microsoft's e-mail support option, it is highly recommended you set your junk mail settings for the e-mail contact you listed in this case to accept e-mail from Microsoft.com. This will ensure our support e-mail reaches you in a timely m anner and prevent it from being moved to your junk mail folder.
Apparently a lot of people block @microsoft.com entirely.
No sig for you! Come back, one year!
You can thank the people who made your browser and those who made your OS (whichever they happen to be) for making that possible. Oh, and yourself for using them.
If I had mod points, I'd make you pay for those evil comments!
:P
btw... Linux rulez, Micro$oft winblow$ drulez
Find Nearby Indie Events
They are gonna strap these guys down as soon as they get through the doors and feed them "the koolaid", and they will never be the same again. Pity, they were part of an interesting project. Bye bye.
What -would- happen if MS offered them a $500k a year job to work on IE?... with a condition not to work on Firefox anymore.
"If anything can go wrong, it will." - Murphy
Open source developers were warned to not even look at leaked win2k code as it'd lead to accusations of contamination of FOSS with Microsoft source.
I wonder.......
Now gentlemen if you'll just look at the wall sized plasma screen over there you'll see "IE7 SOURCE CODE!!!!! That's right, IE7 source code! You have been contaminated and must now cease development of your precious Firefox product! MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!
Hmmmmmm..... Deep fried and look like Squirrel.
Bah. Microsoft just wants a chance to look at the Mozilla source code so they can steal all the good parts.
"The cost of freedom is eternal vigilance." -Thomas Jefferson
Well, May be it is real may be it is a trap. We will know which by the kind of "non disclosure" agreements they have to sign to get accepted. Further, will these developers be allowed to post the bugs/ porting issues they find openly in Bugzilla?
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
http://arstechnica.com/journals/microsoft.ars/2006 /8/21/5065
So perhaps MS is simply recognising this, and acting to support it ?
In my opinion, I think that Microsoft seriously does see the hand-writing on the wall and they do want to do more to ensure that their OS supports the programs that people want to use. Microsoft is going to trumpet their low support costs and ease of managability (think SMS, Group Policy, etc). They are going to trumpet the fact that they are the standard, and they are going to portray any group who doesn't want to work with the standard as being back-asswards and wasting time unnecessarily reinventing the wheel.
On another level, Microsoft is trying to avoid what happened to Novell in the 1990s. Netware was a great operating system but it got to the point where they barely had any third party support. The same thing could happen to Microsoft if enough developers decide that using Microsoft dev tools is a PITA and if enough developers decide that coding to the Microsoft OS is a PITA. The one incentive that Microsoft has left is their market penetration. They can still play the economic card, and that card is, "If you develop for the MS platform, you will have a market share of XX. And by the way, that market is already used to paying out the nose for software, so you stand to make money. Now do you want that, or do you want to go to the OSS world where everyone is doing it on the cheap with razor thin margins?" And if you think about it, that's a very strong position to come from. If you're trying to make money, do you want to go with the company that has already made itself (and numerous third parties) griploads of cash, or do you want to go with the other guys who are trying to redo what Microsoft has already done, but do it "less expensively and better"? I'm of the opinion that unless the OSS world comes out with some killer functionality that operates EXCLUSIVELY outside of Windows, they're never going to win. Given how much Microsoft has been investing in intellectual property, and given how much they have already developed (OS, Office, Exchange, accounting packages, CRM packages... basically all the tools that a business needs to function), it's going to be hard to end-run around the monopoly.
The one ray of hope is "standards" but as we've all seen, Microsoft will just ignore a standard until enough people want to use it. Then they'll offer support for it. You're seeing it now with IE7. For the longest time, MS didn't give two shits. Now enough web devs have complained loudly enough and they're finally getting what they want. IE7 might not nail it, but I'm willing to be IE7 SP3, or IE8 will. The problem with using a standard to fight Microsoft is that standards are very rarely proprietary. And as we've seen with the W3C, even "standards" are often times still works in progress.
embrace, extend, extinguish ...repeat as necessary.
If you think imaginary property and real property are the same, when does your house become public domain?
"... anyone still beating on the ActiveX drum is showing they have no imagination with which to update their repertoire of trolling."
Sorry, but you are quite wrong, either intentionally or by just not thinking this through. You are using one narrow example (microsoft.com's current site practices) and somehow drawing the conclusion that ActiveX is no longer a concern internet-wide. This is totally incorrect.
Here's a quick example. We have a small, (unfortunately) somewhat autonomous group of people here that insist on using Microsoft's products Movie Maker and Producer to push out video of a colloquium that occurs every few weeks during the school year. The web page they end up with makes massive use of ActiveX - which of course means not only that it's IE+Windows only (yes, it claims not to be but it only works on IE+Windows), but also that anyone who uses IE with Active X turned off (e.g. all XP SP2 users) are badgered with popup after popup asking "Do you want to enable scripting?" Eventually many of these folks get tired of the popups and just turn scripting on across the board so they can watch the d*mn video.
If you've read the IT trade press at all, you'll be familiar with interview after interview where CIOs have said "We'd love to move to Firefox, but we've got too much invested in intranet/extranet systems based on ActiveX technology".
ActiveX will continue to be an issue until Microsoft stops selling tools that generate ActiveX-based code and end-products.
#DeleteChrome
One of the 4 Mozilla developers is leading a tour for them, talking causually:
"It's always been a danger, but it looms like a shadow over every-thing we've built here. But things have developed that will ensure security. I've just made a deal that will keep Microsoft out of here forever."
Suddenly, a door in hallway slides open... Horror! ...Bill Gates rises from his seat at the far end of long dining table...
They did that to Netscape devs back in the day, too, albeit in a slightly less obvious way. They'd camp out in the nearest cafes and restaurants around lunch hour and "talk" to Netscape developers, sometimes making them offers they couldn't refuse. Many of those devs were at that point more interested in Ferraris and mansions than in writing code, but MSFT hired them anyway (only to fire when Netscape kicks the bucket).
Expect some folks getting offers in Redmond. Higher ups in IE team are downright stupid if they don't try to hire people away from Mozilla. You kill two birds with one stone - strangle Mozilla and get a good, security minded dev (who will be forced to think a lot less about security at MSFT by an arbitrary, managemen imposed deadline).
The Land's End has just announced an enormous order for several tens of billions of parkas and other winter clothing from a Mr. Bill ze Bub. Film at eleven. :)
But seriously, this sounds like it's on the level and as a result represents an tremendous validation for the impact of open-source software. I'm all for it, and just hope that other open-source projects get invited to discuss Vista's changes and features besides Firefox. Just to name one: Samba.
"A fire axe - surely the weapon of a madman.
Who else would attack fire with an axe?!"
1) On the way into the room check for plastic sheeting on the floor
2) Look for obvious signs of a trap door
3) Don't eat or drink anything
4) Don't sign anything
5) Arrange to be deprogrammed after leaving Redmond.
Microsoft also invited Opera devs for the same reason that they've invited FF devs (to make sure the browser runs well in Vista, and possibly makes use of some new Vista apis (e.g. Vista's Common RSS api)). Opera accepted the invitation and Opera devs paid their visit to MS last week.
;-)
http://annevankesteren.nl/2006/08/opera-vista
http://my.opera.com/olli/blog/show.dml/417961
The Opera devs returned unharmed.
-- "I never gave these stories much credence." - HAL 9000
One does not simply become invited to Mordo--...Microsoft?!
Warning: Could be fatal if taken seriously