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New Yorker on Perelman and Poincaré Controversy

b4stard writes "The New Yorker has an interesting article on the recent proof of the Poincaré conjecture and the controversy surrounding it. This is a very nice read, which, among other things, sheds some light on what may have motivated Perelman in refusing to accept the Fields medal." From the article: "The Fields Medal, like the Nobel Prize, grew, in part, out of a desire to elevate science above national animosities. German mathematicians were excluded from the first I.M.U. congress, in 1924, and, though the ban was lifted before the next one, the trauma it caused led, in 1936, to the establishment of the Fields, a prize intended to be 'as purely international and impersonal as possible.'"

182 comments

  1. Some people don't want to be famous by QuantumFTL · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Is it so hard to understand that some people do things just because they love to, and don't like the burdens that come with fame?

    1. Re:Some people don't want to be famous by squidfood · · Score: 1, Insightful
      ...the burdens that come with fame?

      Fame? Would he have gotten an article in the New Yorker by quietly accepting? Not that he's purposefully trying to build a mystique of genius, but if he were, this is the way he'd do it.

    2. Re:Some people don't want to be famous by treeves · · Score: 3, Interesting

      So tell us you really think he's LESS famous as a result of this than he would have been had he just accepted the award.

      --
      ...the future crusty old bastards are already drinking the Kool-Aid.
    3. Re:Some people don't want to be famous by DamnStupidElf · · Score: 1

      Is it so hard to understand that some people do things just because they love to, and don't like the burdens that come with fame?

      Like Pearleman said, everyone knows the fields medal isn't the important thing, it's the Poincare conjecture. It's afaik the first millenium problem to be solved, it's over 100 years old, and it's a very useful problem to solve in mathematics. Just the pride of solving an open problem like that is enough.

    4. Re:Some people don't want to be famous by kfg · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Would he have gotten an article in the New Yorker by quietly accepting?

      Probably not, but he would have gotten one in the New York Times. It isn't so easy to "quietly" accept.

      And what is the answer for someone who does not wish fame, but does wish to contribute, and so begins to gather fame for eschewing fame? I've you've got the answer, please let me know, I haven't found it in decades of trying. Neither has Salinger. The best you can do is moderate your notoriety; and hide.

      If he didn't want the medal he could have just shut the hell up, but then we wouldn't have the solution.

      "There are better men than Diogones, but nobody has ever heard of them."

      KFG

    5. Re:Some people don't want to be famous by L7_ · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The article in the New Yorker is more about the dispicable effort that Yau made to get his name on the Hamilton-Perelman proof than actually discussing Perelman's effort to remain fame-free. "The chinese made a 30% contribution and Perelman only a 25% one."

      If the way that he is rejecting the Field's Medal is what he concluded it would take to expose the efforts of Yau and Co. to get recognition for work that they did not do, then he is going about it in a good way. The article itself is more an expose into the workings of credit in the world of mathematics than the rejection itself.

    6. Re:Some people don't want to be famous by klenwell · · Score: 4, Insightful

      My favorite quote from the article:

      "There are a lot of students of high ability who speak before thinking," Burago said. "Grisha was different. He thought deeply. His answers were always correct. He always checked very, very carefully." Burago added, "He was not fast. Speed means nothing. Math doesn't depend on speed. It is about deep."

      The Academy (not to mention Slashdot!) could use a few more people like this.

      --
      Innovation makes enemies of all those who prospered under the old regime... -- Machiavelli
    7. Re:Some people don't want to be famous by Sage+Gaspar · · Score: 4, Funny

      No kidding. The real losers here are the students who are going to get shafted when all the topology texts release new editions for a footnote :P

    8. Re:Some people don't want to be famous by squidfood · · Score: 3, Interesting
      And what is the answer for someone who does not wish fame, but does wish to contribute, and so begins to gather fame for eschewing fame?

      I'm not saying he did the wrong thing, or did it cynically, or didn't do it out of love for the work. I'm just saying each year's award winners tend to be a nine-days wonder or less, while this story makes the wonder last longer... probably worth 500 slashdot comments instead of merely 50 :).

      If you ask me, Salinger is more famous for being a recluse... hiding in plain sight probably works better.

    9. Re:Some people don't want to be famous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Regardless, it's not like he's exactly flaunting his fame. I mean, to even get an interview with him, the content of which filled about 2-3% of the actual article, the New Yorker spent 3 days trying to get a hold of him, only to find he hadn't been checking his email and hadn't even looked in the mailbox to his apartment for a week.

      I don't presume to know his motivations, but I will say that he certainly acts nothing like any other celebrity you're likely to meet, including Yau, who is rather harshly represented in the article.

    10. Re:Some people don't want to be famous by junglee_iitk · · Score: 4, Insightful

      ... hiding in plain sight probably works better.

      Am I the only geek to doubt this?

    11. Re:Some people don't want to be famous by Sage+Gaspar · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Fame? Would he have gotten an article in the New Yorker by quietly accepting? Not that he's purposefully trying to build a mystique of genius, but if he were, this is the way he'd do it.

      Maybe fame of a different sort. He's saying that by accepting the prize and staying in the community, he'd either have to stick up for what he views as his integrity and contribution by calling Yau out on his later proof, or he'd essentially be confirming it through inaction. He did not want to be embroiled in this kind of political mockery of mathematics, so he decided to remove himself from it. In doing so I guess he has called attention to his reasons, but he's removed from the conflict.

      Honestly, this guy is not a glory hog, from all accounts I've heard. If you read the article, the New Yorker spent a week leaving him messages only to find out in the end he hadn't left to check his mail in that week. He's not holding press conferences, there aren't any photo ops, he's not going out of his way to get coverage. If he wanted the press he'd have gone to all the publications calling Yau out as a fraud and stirring up a big ruckus. That's the more interesting story.

    12. Re:Some people don't want to be famous by pallmall1 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Just the pride of solving an open problem like that is enough.

      I agree. Perelman knows he's the one who solved it. The world knows Perelman solved it. And all the mathematicians know in their hearts that he solved it, even Yau. Yau may try to deny Perelman's accomplishment, and may even gain some material rewards he does not truly deserve. But those hollow victories and the methods he used to obtain them will be what Yau is remembered for, while Perelman will be known as the man who proved the Poincare conjecture.

      How's that for topology.

      --
      3 things about computers: they're alive, they're self-aware, and they hate your guts.
    13. Re:Some people don't want to be famous by TubeSteak · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Yau said:
      50% Hamilton
      25% Perelman
      30% Yau & Co.
      =
      105%

      Yes, Yau actually said that.

      'As for Yau, Perelman said, "I can't say I'm outraged. Other people do worse. Of course, there are many mathematicians who are more or less honest. But almost all of them are conformists. They are more or less honest, but they tolerate those who are not honest."'

      Perelman doesn't really want anything to do with the mathematical community as a result of Yau's politiking.

      TFA does not paint a very pretty picture of Yau.

      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    14. Re:Some people don't want to be famous by kfg · · Score: 1

      If you ask me, Salinger is more famous for being a recluse...

      Q.E.D.

      Salinger is a recluse (and stopped publishing) in response to fame, not because he wants to be a recluse. Hiding in plain sight simply didn't work once he . . . came into sight.

      KFG

    15. Re:Some people don't want to be famous by rm999 · · Score: 1

      Refusing the prize made him so much more famous than accepting it would have. Anyone with a bit of common sense would know this. Either he has some sort of social problem (very likely) or he *wanted* attention (not likely)

    16. Re:Some people don't want to be famous by perlchild · · Score: 1

      Look at it this way:
      he doesn't want to deal with journalists, trying to deny them a story.
      Nobody told him that was impossible.
      They bug him anyways.

      Just because he is more famous for refusing the award doesn't make it his fault. It could be the journalists not wanting to let go of the story.

    17. Re:Some people don't want to be famous by Metasquares · · Score: 1

      Someone proposed a plausible-looking proof for the Riemann hypothesis a while back. I remember the story making Slashdot. What happened to that? I'm guessing that the proof was flawed?

      Also, shouldn't we be calling it "the Poincare theorem" now that it's proven?

    18. Re:Some people don't want to be famous by Bush+Pig · · Score: 0

      I got quite excited about your sig, until I realised it said _paid_.

      --
      What a long, strange trip it's been.
    19. Re:Some people don't want to be famous by brandonY · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Not that he's purposefully trying to build a mystique of genius, but if he were, this is the way he'd do it.

      I agree. A good way to build a mystique of genius WOULD be to solve a very old, nigh-unsolvable, famous math problem. Why didn't I think of that?!

    20. Re:Some people don't want to be famous by rolfwind · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Maybe his sick mother lives with him.

      After growing up, children living with parents may be a source of derision in America, but in some countries 2 or 3 generations living under one roof is not unusual. Not that I am saying Russia is one of these since I don't know much about Russia, but I believe it's time for people making these comments to grow up rather than the people in these type of situations -- afterall, not all of the instances are equal.

    21. Re:Some people don't want to be famous by hackwrench · · Score: 1

      The entire planet has some sort of social problem. It isn't all black and white.

      In this terror war thing, neither side wants to negotiate. Consider that.

    22. Re:Some people don't want to be famous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      how can a person who do not wish for fame contribute?

      the answer is anonymous contributions

      perelman can post anonymously, he get anonymous fame, but in real life nobody pay attention to him, so his privacy is undisturbed

      i think perelman values his privacy very much, being in the center of media attention is a big disturbance to his privacy that he enjoys

    23. Re:Some people don't want to be famous by TheoMurpse · · Score: 1

      Am I the only one that doesn't see TFA as the beginnings of an excellent new movie about nationalism and pursuit of success? I think it is a fascinating story, and to contrast Yau and Perelman like that...I'd pay money to see a movie like that, provided Perelman didn't roll up with ice in his grill, shoot some hookers and blow up some cars. (not meant to be funny)

    24. Re:Some people don't want to be famous by TheoMurpse · · Score: 1
      Am I the only one that doesn't see [...]
      Sorry, that should say, "Am I the only one that sees [...]".
    25. Re:Some people don't want to be famous by raftpeople · · Score: 2, Funny

      ...I haven't found it in decades of trying...

      I know what you mean, I can never get away from the paparazzi! But at least here on slahdot I can lurk as "RaftPeople" without anyone realizing my incredible talent and world-wide fame.

    26. Re:Some people don't want to be famous by kfg · · Score: 1

      I know what you mean, I can never get away from the paparazzi!

      I hear ya brother. The parazzi almost seem tame now though. Back in the day when you actually had to have a camera to take a picture I might get "snapped" a couple dozen times a month and the pros were often quite inobtrusive. I found a picture of myself on the web that I simply can't figure how it was taken. It's an indoor candid that looks taken at close range; and I never saw anyone with a camera of any sort, even though in the shot I'm looking in the direction the shot was taken from.

      But now with cameras in cell phones I can have my picture taken that many times an hour, with many of the picture takers wanting to interupt my work to have their picture taken with their arm over my shoulder or something.

      One of them even wanted me to take his picture playing my violin to show the folks back home. A man's violin is a very personal thing. You don't just hand it over to anyone who wants to impress the folks back home, especially since an old violin is essentially irreplacable.

      KFG

    27. Re:Some people don't want to be famous by adamgolding · · Score: 1

      Yau said:
      50% Hamilton
      25% Perelman
      30% Yau & Co.
      =
      105%

      Clearly, 5% of the work was done twice...

    28. Re:Some people don't want to be famous by elbrecht · · Score: 1

      Well traveling there and being spoken to in person by just everyone that day could be closer to fame as he saw it.

      Now he tries to deal all fame by email. Should sound easier for /.-crowd.

    29. Re:Some people don't want to be famous by CarpetShark · · Score: 1
      Am I the only geek to doubt this?


      I certainly don't doubt it. You should read the Tao Te Ching, and the Art of War.
    30. Re:Some people don't want to be famous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      I've you've got the answer, please let me know, I haven't found it in decades of trying.


      I think you found it... I've never heard of you except seeing KFG in some slashdot comments. That ain't fame, that is seeing the same guy outside the grocery store shouting every time you go in.
    31. Re:Some people don't want to be famous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A true geek can never get laid. At least try to get paid well.

    32. Re:Some people don't want to be famous by kfg · · Score: 2, Funny

      I've never heard of you except seeing KFG in some slashdot comments.

      So you've never heard of me, except for . . .having heard of me.

      That ain't fame, that is seeing the same guy outside the grocery store shouting every time you go in.

      That ain't me. That's RMS. I work Times Square.

      KFG

    33. Re:Some people don't want to be famous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, he has no income and they both live off her $75/month pension. So I'd call that him living with her.

    34. Re:Some people don't want to be famous by rolfwind · · Score: 2, Interesting
      From TFA:
      Ultimately, he received several job offers. But he declined them all, and in the summer of 1995 returned to St. Petersburg, to his old job at the Steklov Institute, where he was paid less than a hundred dollars a month. (He told a friend that he had saved enough money in the United States to live on for the rest of his life.) His father had moved to Israel two years earlier, and his younger sister was planning to join him there after she finished college. His mother, however, had decided to remain in St. Petersburg, and Perelman moved in with her.


      I still see no specifics why he moved in with her (sickness, mama's boy?, etcetera) but money does not seem to be an issue here. And he may accept the million dollar prize too - he didn't say he would give a definite answer until offered.
    35. Re:Some people don't want to be famous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As difficult as the proof seems at least it is based on reason. It is harder to follow why Perelman is turning down the Field's medal.

      Yao claims the proof is his. Perelman says he doesn't want to "make some ugly thing" with Yao and so, if there is a point to turning down the prize - if - it must be to get others to make an ugly thing with Yao. So am I reading this right? The publicity his refusal generates attracts the attention of the maths community to his grievance and they will carry on the fight on his behalf. Well he's already got their attention. He's solved the Poincare Conjecture for God's sake. The maths community is all over this whether he has a medal or not.

      As for the huge public interest turning down the prize has attracted, in a few months all the public will remember is someone turned down the maths Nobel because they wanted all the credit for themselves. Completely wrong but easy to remember.

      Like I say I don't see the logic. What I do get is - He's been told he wasn't good enough and fired. Someone's trying to steal his big result. His father and sister have moved to another country and his mother is eyeing her pension and thinking wouldn't it be time now for him to be getting a job. So there he is stuck in his room, feeling sorry for himself and all he wants to do is tell the world to take their prizes and piss off.

      See that I get.

    36. Re:Some people don't want to be famous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If a slashdotter chooses not to speak does anyone notice?

    37. Re:Some people don't want to be famous by cnmath · · Score: 1

      An open letter to Ms. Nasar. Dear Ms. Nasar: As a mathematician born in China, I am deeply offended by your article with Mr. Gruber in the recent issue of the New Yorker. Your narrative plays to the stereotype that mathematicians of Chinese heritage are "technical" but not "original". (1) In the first sentence of your article, you identified Professor Yau as "the Chinese mathematician". In fact: Yau is a U. S. citizen. To make my point simple: Don't you agree that it oddly emphasizes your cultural heritage if you are called "the Bavarian journalist and writer"? (I noticed that you were listed as an American journalist and writer born in Bavaria in the Wikipedia.) You wasted no time to connect the dots in the next sentence: Yau was "a thinker of unrivalled technical power". (2) In your narrative of the works that led to Yau's Fields medal, you misrepresented the facts and downplayed the originality of Yau's contribution. "In 1976, he proved a twenty-year-old conjecture pertaining to a type of manifold that is now crucial to string theory. A French mathematician had formulated a proof of the problem, which is known as Calabi's conjecture, but Yau's, because it was more general, was more powerful... 'He was not so much thinking up some original way of looking at a subject but solving extremely hard technical problems that at the time only he could solve, by sheer intellect and force of will,' Phillip Griffiths, a geometer and a former director of the Institute for Advanced Study, said". (3) Even in your narrative of Chern, there is no mention of any of his original work or idea. (4) In Yau's seminar, "[e]ach student was assigned a recently published proof and asked to reconstruct it, fixing any errors and filling in gaps". As for the controversy surrounding Givental's work, "[o]ccasionally, the difference between a mathematical gap and a gap in exposition can be hard to discern. On at least one occasion, Yau and his students [Bong Lian and Kefeng Liu] have seemed to confuse the two, making claims of originality that other mathematicians believe are unwarranted." You were adamant that Professor Givental's work was complete and correct. A simple search in MathSciNet's review of Givental's paper would have given you a different perspective. (5) In your narrative of Professor Tian's reaction to Yau's allegations, you again emphasized Tian's Chinese heritage: "I [Tian] have deep roots in Chinese culture. A teacher is a teacher. There is respect. It is very hard for me to think of anything to do." (6) "Yau's entrepreneurial drive extended to collaborations with colleagues and students, and, in addition to conducting his own research, he began organizing seminars. He frequently allied himself with brilliantly inventive mathematicians, including Richard Schoen and William Meeks." Yau has many students and collaborators of Chinese heritage; some of them are now professors in top universities in this country. Of course, none of them are supposed to be "inventive", not even "Yau's most successful student" Tian. I also question the connotation of "entrepreneurial". (7) It is now clear that you are determined to prove your point. "Mathematicians familiar with Perelman's proof disputed the idea that Zhu and Cao had contributed significant new approaches to the Poincaré. 'Perelman already did it and what he did was complete and correct,' John Morgan said. 'I don't see that they did anything different.'" " 'It is not clear to me what new contribution did they [Cao and Zhu] make,' he [Perelman] said. 'Apparently, Zhu did not quite understand the argument and reworked it.'" I argue that the statements of Morgan and Perelman are not necessarily consistent with each other. Morgan said Cao-Zhu did nothing different from Perelman, while Perelman said Cao-Zhu did not understand his argument and had to "reworked" it, thus implying that they did at least something different. I could have listed a lot more; but I think these are sufficient to illustrate my point. Here is a challenge to you, Ms. Nasar: List the sentences in your long a

    38. Re:Some people don't want to be famous by klui · · Score: 1

      I read the article as follows: if someone were to win a Fields Medal, their work is considered original. So this guy won the medal; he at least did something original in the past. He is of Chinese ancestry--a Chinese did something original.

      What Yau did, according to the article, is recently have disciples "fine-tune" or clarify some proofs that have been accepted as complete and claim those derivatives as original works. Decisions will ultimately come from the mathematics community, but my opinion is these clarifications are not original works unless there is a gross error in the original proof.

      I'm wondering why this guy is bringing up the race/prejudice card. Muddy the waters a bit?

    39. Re:Some people don't want to be famous by Phat_Tony · · Score: 1

      That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard! You idiot!

      Oh, wait a minute, now that I read it again, it makes a lot of sense. Never-mind.

      --
      Can anyone tell me how to set my sig on Slashdot?
    40. Re:Some people don't want to be famous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're absolutely correct. It's not a mistake that the author of the article is Sylvia Nasar. She knows what she is doing.

  2. Dear editor by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    You have got the wikipedia link wrong. You meant: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grigori_Perelman

  3. perhaps he has the best reward there is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful


    satisfaction in knowing he was right ?

    narcissm and wealth isnt important to everyone (i know this is probably hard for indoctrinated Americans to understand)
    good for him i say

    1. Re:perhaps he has the best reward there is by ScrewMaster · · Score: 5, Insightful

      i know this is probably hard for indoctrinated Americans to understand.

      It's probably even harder for indoctrinated non-Americans to understand that the vast majority of Americans aren't particularly narcissistic, or remotely wealthy. At this point, in fact, the bulk of us are starting to get pretty damn sick and tired of both those SUV-driving narcissistic fuckwits that we have to contend with on the way to work every day, and judgmental foreigners that insist upon treating America (of all countries) as a monolithic culture.

      But so far as refusing the prize is concerned, you're right, I'm sure he has that satisfaction. But, contrary to popular belief, the academic/scientific world is just as rife with dissent, personalities and politics as any other human endeavor. Consequently it's quite likely he refused the prize because he was pissed off about something or someone.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    2. Re:perhaps he has the best reward there is by DrMindWarp · · Score: 3, Insightful
      But, contrary to popular belief, the academic/scientific world is just as rife with dissent, personalities and politics as any other human endeavor.

      It is reassuring to see someone state this every now and again. I must get a T-shirt printed.

    3. Re:perhaps he has the best reward there is by mrbooze · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What exactly is narcissistic or greedy about a person humbly accepting an honor accorded them by their peers? You don't even have to show up to politely say "Thank you, but I prefer not to be in the spotlight, please donate the award money to $CHARITY or $SCHOLARSHIP or $WHATEVER."

      I wasn't indoctrinated by my American parents to be particularly narcissistic or greedy, but I was indoctrinated to be gracious when someone in good faith offers you a gift or award.

      Not that I care about whether this particular guy wants an award or not, but the implication that all good-hearted folk would refuse to humbly accept awards or accolades is pretty goofy.

    4. Re:perhaps he has the best reward there is by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

      Well, the stereotypical white-lab-coated emotionless scientist is just as ridiculous a cultural icon now as it was in all those 50's B-grades.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    5. Re:perhaps he has the best reward there is by Fnkmaster · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Heh, major moderation abuse - this post is not flamebait at all, but is a very reasonable response to an absurdist generalization about Americans.

      Thank you, ScrewMaster, your point is extremely valid.

    6. Re:perhaps he has the best reward there is by Romwell · · Score: 1

      Well, no one hs implied that he is good-hearted. From the article, you could tell he's qute anti-soical, doesn't have much (any?) real friends, hides from people etc. Not accepting the award somehow fits in his line of behaviour. Considering accepting the award and then donating money to charity - well, it seems that he doesn't care about charities, or helping people, or whatever. He only cares about the fact that his proof is correct, and since this is math, this fact can be verified by anyone having sufficient level of understanding of the subject. Hence he has nothing left to care about. I hope this guy comes to the US again some X years later when I will (hopefully) be able to understand what he would be talking about :)

    7. Re:perhaps he has the best reward there is by Dixie_Flatline · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I'm going to deviate wildly from the actual conversation at hand and put in two cents real fast. (Moderators, just ignore this post. Nobody reads at +1 except you anyway, so modding me down is just a waste of points.)

      People around the world believe what they do about America because from all outward appearances, very little is being done about it. When there was a question about the validity of an election in Ukraine, Ukranians came out and protested in huge numbers until something was done about it. It was the truest expression of democracy that the world has seen in a long time. Ultimately, they have the US to thank in large part for even giving them that opportunity, but when it looked like their rights were in jeopardy, they stood up and didn't waste the opportunity offered them.

      In comparison, two American elections went by with a comparative whimper from those that felt the election results weren't necessarily on the up and up. For Americans to not be able to rid themselves of someone like GWB if they really wanted to is ridiculous, so the perception is that really, that's who America wanted to lead them, even if 49.9% of the population voted against him.

      I'm Canadian, and I'm friends with many Americans. On an individual basis, Americans that I'm friendly with think very much like I do (for good or ill; I'm a filthy socialist hippie :), but as a population, you're overbearing, wasteful and crude. If you want people around the world to think better of you (which in and of itself would be somewhat novel -- it implies that you admit that there's a 'rest of the world' ;) you have to do something about it. You may not care -- that's your right -- but then you can't complain about the generalizations that are made about you.

      Anyway, long story short: I'm sure you're very nice, are just as tired of the SUV driving morons that ruin your country as we are, and don't necessarily fit every American stereotype. Don't take it too personally when the rest of us complain about your compatriots. We'll try not to take it personally when you make fun of our oddly coloured money. :)

    8. Re:perhaps he has the best reward there is by hackwrench · · Score: 1
      Nobody reads at +1 except you anyway, so modding me down is just a waste of points.
      I do. The lack of context from trying not to is jarring. Actually I sort of read at 0, but hid Anonymous Coward posts, and the "University of Michigan" discussion style view shakes things up quite a bit.
    9. Re:perhaps he has the best reward there is by affliction · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      At this point, in fact, the bulk of us are starting to get pretty damn sick and tired of both those SUV-driving narcissistic fuckwits that we have to contend with on the way to work every day, and judgmental foreigners that insist upon treating America (of all countries) as a monolithic culture.


      I am getting pretty sick and tired of being stereotyped as a fuckwit for driving an SUV. Maybe I want something that I can drive in the hills or I can haul things around if I need to. Do you ever need to move anything big? Does it fit in your Toyota Hybrid? No? Well, then you better go borrow your friend's SUV. But, you don't have any friends with SUVs because they are all fuckwits.

      Next time, pick some other characteristic instead of owning an SUV, like ranting about SUV owning fuckwits.
    10. Re:perhaps he has the best reward there is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      I personally always used a light truck (like a Ford Ranger or a Toyota Tacoma) for hauling stuff around/screwing around at the gravel pit.

      Seriously, when was the last time you went driving around in the hills, and needed to do more than what a mid-90s truck could?

      Fuckwit.

    11. Re:perhaps he has the best reward there is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      stfu fuckwit

    12. Re:perhaps he has the best reward there is by WalksOnDirt · · Score: 1

      What do you think he might want to do with the money if he doesn't want it personally?

      I think it likely he would prefer to use it to help deserving mathematicians continue their research. But, which ones should get the money? The process of choosing where the money should go is probably uninteresting to him, so he would want to avoid it. Now, consider what happens if he refuses the prize money: It will go back into the endowment it came from, and then experts will eventually find a deserving recipient. Sounds like this could be a win/win from Perelman's perspective.

      --
      a,e,i,o,u and sometimes w and y (at be if of up cwm by)
    13. Re:perhaps he has the best reward there is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      narcissm and wealth isnt important to everyone (i know this is probably hard for indoctrinated Americans to understand)

      Fuck you in the heart, you anonymous foreign bastard. All you've shown is a profound lack of knowledge about the history of rivalries among scientists of all nations.

    14. Re:perhaps he has the best reward there is by truebranch · · Score: 1

      The generalizations you've posted are morally no better than other forms of bigotry which you doubtless hypocritically decry as a leftist. Your comparison of recent elections in the United States and Ukraine is grotesquely distorted, and you foolishly cite the six year tenancy of a moderate conservative in the White House as the basis for your contempt for an entire society. Your ironic choice of context to make this criticism in an article pitting a Chinese mathmatician against a Russian one makes your behavior doubly inappropriate. Yet you refer to Americans as overbearing and crude. Take a look in the mirror friend.

      My refusal to respond in kind with dimwitted generalizations about Canadians by no means vindicates your offensive behavior. It merely means that my problem is with your behavior as an individual, and does not extend to your nationality.

      The accusation of American wastefulness raises some more subtle questions. It is not the quantity of resources utilized by a human life, but the sustainability and environmental impact of that resource usage, that must be considered. While the American regulatory framework is clearly deficient in assessing the true environmental cost of certain activities at this time, and properly apportioning responsibility for environmental damage, the somewhat ascetic high tax and high regulation Canadian and European social models have not addressed this problem either. Merely restricting consumption through taxation and haphazard regulation is not a tenable long term solution because of the growth in population in the third world and the necessity of modern amenities for optimal human health and development. What is going to be needed is rapid engineering of new non-carbon energy sources and environmental resources management tools on a grand scale, and an accompanying culture of technology necessary to support this endeavor. It is by no means clear that developments in Canada have moved humanity closer to that goal than developments in the United States have over the past ten years, if one is truly objective about it. America's robust culture of computer technology, environmental academics, and energy entrepenuership and resourcefulness will likely have a significant role to play in what will ultimately become the solution if one is devised. Most of that solution is going to be the result of engineering, organization, and hard work, not political self-righteousness or the authentic original hippie ethos (although today, things have changed so much that much of the engineering WILL be done by those who consider themselves hippies, but that doesn't weaken the point). While I would not characterize Canadian society as embodying either political self-righteousness or hippie ethos, these are clearly things you value and thus worth downsizing by comparison. The lone voice of extraordinary leadership in this area in the past five years has been the much-maligned Tony Blair, whom you perhaps despise. But the United States has been more responsive to Blair's core tenets to date than Canada, from what I've seen in the press. I'm interested in working with sincere people in any country, including yours, to collaborate on a solution to the world's environmental problems.

      I also might be interested in working with you someday, after you grow up.

    15. Re:perhaps he has the best reward there is by khallow · · Score: 1

      I am getting pretty sick and tired of being stereotyped as a fuckwit for driving an SUV. Maybe I want something that I can drive in the hills or I can haul things around if I need to. Do you ever need to move anything big? Does it fit in your Toyota Hybrid? No? Well, then you better go borrow your friend's SUV. But, you don't have any friends with SUVs because they are all fuckwits.

      A light truck would be better for that purpose. They certainly have more cargo space and drive at least as well.

      My take though is that an SUV is actually a very good design for a luxury vehicle. It's not great for people with limited mobility and hard to park, but it otherwise beats limousines with the extra space and visibility. And as you obviously have noted, smaller vehicles have problems navigating around an SUV making the SUVs rather unpopular.
    16. Re:perhaps he has the best reward there is by Dixie_Flatline · · Score: 1, Offtopic

      Yes, thank you for the nice lecture. That you can type a coherent sentence and sound high-handed about this whole thing doesn't change the perception of your country by the rest of the world at all.

      Frankly, I suspect your entire response to me as being ironic; nobody would describe Bush as a 'moderate conservative' -- especially not his supporters.

      Amusingly, the person looking back out of the mirror at me is someone that's half-Chinese, and half-White-Russian. I briefly felt bad about the bad-mouthing of a Chinese mathematician, since I feel no small amount of pride when I hear about Chinese doing well in the world, but then I remembered that every country and race fields its share of jerks.

      Face facts: nobody likes Bush. Electing him again made your country look really bad in the eyes of the world. Whether or not you think this is fair, whether or not you think that Bush really is the 'moderate conservative' that you claim him to be -- neither of those things matter. Your country has a long standing reputation for wasteful imperialism. Crying to me that it isn't fair doesn't change that.

      Finally, I don't think that Canada has done any better a job fixing any sort of environmental crisis than the US. My province (Alberta) still shamelessly kowtows to the big oil companies raping the land around the oil sands, worried that raising taxes or imposing any sort of meaningful environmental restrictions will cause them to spontaneously generate and move to another massive source of oil somewhere else in the world. Stephen Harper, our current Prime Minister is from southern Alberta, and has the outward appearance of an unfeeling, yet evil, robot bent on doing meaningless fiddling in the guise of getting some work done. I have no shortage of criticism for my fellow citizens and their capacity to pick up on the worst kinds of American behaviours that they no doubt learn from sitting in front of the television far too much. Don't take my criticism of your country and my attempt to explain where all these nasty off-hand comments come from as some sort of tacit approval of every other system out there. I've read the history books and I know the good your country and your people have done. Your lecturing only feeds the stereotypes that everyone holds.

    17. Re:perhaps he has the best reward there is by ScrewMaster · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Classic. I complain about a particular class of four-wheeled headcases and one of them comes back and demonstrates precisely what I was talking about.

      Personally, I drive a full-length mini-van, which I've found is far more pragmatic (certainly I get better mileage than many SUVs and have a ton of cargo space.) The reason I drive a mini-van rather than an SUV is that I do have a need to haul equipment and people around now and then, but have no need to prove anything to anyone about anything.

      And don't try to justify your desire to be the biggest goddamn passenger vehicle around in order to feed your obviously massive ego by telling me how "practical" your SUV is. There's no "utility" in SUV. It's strictly a luxury vehicle for men with tiny packages and women who wish they had even that. Truth is, Affliction, that you picked the perfect nick for an SUV driver, because those machines and the criminally-negligent sociopaths that drive them are a blight on the highways. They're a danger to themselves and others ... I kept track for about six months of the type of vehicles I would see involved in traffic accidents to and from work (at the time I commuted about 75 miles daily on the expressway.) Fully 80% of the accidents I saw involved SUVs, often multiple SUVs. That's because, as a class, SUV owners don't fucking know how to drive and worse, use the relative difference in the size of their cars to intimidate drivers of smaller vehicles. I don't particular care what your particular mode of transportation is, whether it's called a "car", a "truck", a "van" or an "SUV", but the unfortunate reality is that SUVs are driven by a class of people who are, by and large, discourteous, threatening, and generally unpleasant to be around. Did I mention sociopath?

      I'm sorry (actually, I'm not, because you sure sound like a typical SUV owner) but if you don't want to be put in the category of "rolling four-wheeled dick" your best bet is simply not to drive one. A friend of mine came up with a solution for the problem of Excursions and Yukons and all the rest of those overpowered, underbrained examples of conspicuous consumption: require CV (Commercial Vehicle) licenses in order to drive them. Maybe the extra training required will teach you little pricks something about safety and the fact that you don't own the goddamn road.

      Have a nice day.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    18. Re:perhaps he has the best reward there is by khallow · · Score: 1

      It strikes me that you don't really understand the motivations of the people you generalize. We (since I'm a US citizen) may be "overbearing", "wasteful", and "crude", but that sounds more to me like "confident", "productive", and "unpretentious". Whether it is a vice or virtue depends on the point of view. And er, degree, I suppose.

      I've learned long ago that everyone's self-interests are different. A good example is your use of the term "waste". In the US, time is generally more valuable than other resources like oil or carbon emissions. It's not useful to be nagged about wasting things that you don't care about especially at the sacrifice of something you do value.

      In comparison, two American elections went by with a comparative whimper from those that felt the election results weren't necessarily on the up and up. For Americans to not be able to rid themselves of someone like GWB if they really wanted to is ridiculous, so the perception is that really, that's who America wanted to lead them, even if 49.9% of the population voted against him.

      Americans like most people believe in the rule of law. You don't "get rid" of a US president merely because you don't like him. There are standard procedures and standard reasons for doing that. Bush hasn't done anything sufficiently wrong to invoke those procedures. Further, no one has come up with a legitimate reason to overturn either the 2000 or 2004 elections. I've read enough to be dubious of Diebold voting machines, but not enough to agree that the votes from these two elections were rigged.

    19. Re:perhaps he has the best reward there is by Dixie_Flatline · · Score: 1

      I don't disagree with you. Misperception is at the heart of this matter. But in the end, perception is usually what counts for the most, not truth. Are all people on welfare lazy and unmotivated? No, not at all. Yet, this is often the perception that is held, and it's hard to dissuade people of it. People see the Chinese government as overbearing, overly intrusive and cruel. From their perspective, I'm sure they think they're decisive, concerned and driven.

      Most of the World's problems are a matter of this misperception. Not all Muslims are terrorists (a vanishingly small percentage of them are, actually). Not all Americans are fat, lazy and stupid (just the ones that show up on the news, unfortunately). Not all Canadians are pot-smoking hippies that live in igloos (just the lucky ones ;).

      I wasn't clear with my 'get rid of' remark. I meant it strictly in the voting sense. If we had time and room for a real discussion, you'd find out that the rule of law is something that I put a lot of stock in, even if the laws are stupid. In those cases, you work to change the law; you don't flaunt it. (I doggedly drive the speed limit, even though I think I'd be a safe driver at higher speeds. That's not my call to make.)

      My position is likely not very much different from your fellow Americans that consider themselves 'left wing'. I'm dubious over the election results, but I don't necessarily think that the election was stolen. This is so much the worse in the case of the 2004 elections. If those really were the most accurate results possible, it means that America decided that keeping GWB in office was the best course for the country, and not enough people could be motivated to say that it wasn't. Polls indicate that your population may be wising up to it now, but it's a bit late for saying sorry.

      I'm really not trying to get into a debate about the relative merits of your country and political system. I'm merely trying to point out that the World's perception of your population is poor, with GWB being among the many reasons. International geeks also get to read about your Net Neutrality Act, the PATRIOT act, and every mistake Homeland Security makes. The truth of the matter is largely irrelevant. You have an image problem.

    20. Re:perhaps he has the best reward there is by rebelcool · · Score: 1

      If the rest of the world wants to base its opinion on falsities and ignorance, then the rest of the world can simply, go to hell. Same's true for americans who want to believe simplistic non-truths about others' cultures.

      And from the looks of it, the rest of the world is well on its way there, with or without USA influence.

      --

      -

    21. Re:perhaps he has the best reward there is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Right on.

      I am European who worked and studied in the US and I have to say, if anything, American professors are much nicer, accessible and down to hearth than any of my Professors back in Europe. And no, Americans by and large are not greedy nor narcisist. Not any more than Europeans anyway. America != Holiwood.

    22. Re:perhaps he has the best reward there is by Dixie_Flatline · · Score: 1

      I'll make you a deal: you work on getting your brethren to stop jumping to conclusions based on peoples' race or religion or country of residence, and I'll do what I can to get my brethren to stop thinking of Americans in such an unkind way. We have a rather hard job, since we're up against professionals like Coulter and Limbaugh, who try to pass themselves off as 'average' Americans, 'educating' the rest of the population about how nasty we Canadians are, but it all has to start somewhere, I guess.

      If you can get them into a dark alley, I'll bring the bat. :)

    23. Re:perhaps he has the best reward there is by truebranch · · Score: 1

      It is completely inane of you to suggest that my writing style was intended to change your stereotypes, rather than simply to deconstruct your arguments and condemn your obvious hypocrisy. There's no way to change the perception of close-minded people like you, but you can be refuted for the benefit of others. Others who share your stereotypes don't validate your position any more than they can validate the fallacy that Yao proved Poincare.

      You wrote about your Canadian nationality rather than your ethnic roots, and that is what I was responding to. But since you've implictly compared China and Russia favorably to the US now, I may as well deconstruct what you have to say about imperialism. You're using the Marxist definition of the term (unsurprising). But the standard definition of imperialism which involves in effect annexing a territory that is independent and wishes to remain independent applies to China and Russia in this century more than the US (compare China's policy towards Taiwan and Tibet or Russia's policy towards Chechnya, the Ukraine, and Georgia, involving assertion of direct political control at the expense of democracy with the US policy in Iraq and Afghanistan where a somewhat beleagured attempt to set up democracy is being made despite widespread authoritarian theocratic tendencies in the populations there).

      I have plenty of criticism of the US leadership but refuse to allow the real issues to be confused by hypocritical criticism from others who are sympathetic to things that are even worse. I think you just have avoid letting various forms of excessive nationalism influence your thoughts, and then you could be more objective. Apparently you're not the only one with this problem. Maybe you and Yao can learn together. Perlman could be your teacher.

    24. Re:perhaps he has the best reward there is by drwho · · Score: 1

      Wow, yet another USA basher. Well let me tell you, it's easy to pick on the US, but it's boring. The stereotype of the Ugly American has been out-of-date for some time. Like any other country we have our share of redneck, creeps, and moral policeman. We've also got a really good share of geniuses, saints, and everyday people who don't particularly care for a world empire, yet think it's really crappy when other people in the world can't enjoy the things that we so love about the USA, namely the freedoms we enjoy, and sometimes this desire gets the US into mucky military missions. Oh, yes, these freedoms are limited, they have to be constantly defended, but even when I disagree with their methods, I find that even a lot of the Bush-loving rednecks out there have, in a very abstract sense, some of the same desires as me. What I am trying to say here is that Americans are fundamentally good people. I haven't been to a lot of other countries, but the only other country that I can say I feel the same about, through personal experience, is Germany.

      I am sure I am going to get a lot flack from the USA haters out there, calling me an apologist from Bush. Just so you know, I didn't cote for him, but neither did I vote Democrat.

    25. Re:perhaps he has the best reward there is by Dixie_Flatline · · Score: 1

      I'm impressed with what you've managed to read out from between the lines that I certainly didn't put there. You're defensive; I understand. It sucks when people don't like your country and there's no good reason for it. Perception's an ugly bitch.

      I certainly didn't try to imply in my response to you that China and Russia are nations that stack up favourably to the US. China has obvious problems of its own, but I DO have a cultural tie to it that I won't ignore. Russia's a basketcase that I only have ties to because half my family was in that area 80 years ago.

      The American era of imperialism has certainly existed for long before they got involved with Afghanistan and Iraq in the last 6 years. America's exploits in the middle east propping up dictatorships and replacing rulers to be those more favourable towards the US is well known and well documented. It just doesn't seem like it's been going on because it ended up working so very poorly.

      I'll summarize for you again, and maybe you'll read what I'm putting in the text as opposed to things that I didn't explicitly write: it doesn't matter what you think of your country when dealing with stereotypes. It doesn't matter what the truth of the situation is. The world doesn't like your leader, and your outward image of a fat (30+% obese now, by population? The real problem is poverty; arguably some of these people have no choice in the matter), polluting (#1 polluter in the world, at least for now. Per capita, better than Canada, I hear), and consumptive (Americans personally carry some of the highest debt-load per capita of any nation, presumably to fund their need for stuff) may not be well deserved, but it's certainly what's reported on. You voted for a leader -- twice -- that is only currently supported by about 30% of your population. I don't think I'm saying anything that other AMERICANS don't say on a daily basis. Actually, I consume more American news (albeit left-leaning stuff like Salon, the Huffington Post, the Daily Show and the Colbert Report) on a daily basis than I do Canadian news. My views are never much more than a stone's throw away from what's being printed and produced in your own popular media. When I DO listen to Canadian news, these days it's about how yet another international court has ruled in favour of Canada in the current softwood lumber dispute that we're embroiled in, but your government refusing to acquiesce to the rulings. Now, out of desperation, we're taking a compromise deal that we shouldn't have to.

      What other image could you ever expect the States to have, especially in Canada? People don't remember the good things that others do. Negatives stick much more strongly in the memory, and negatives are in the news. It's not news if your citizens are calm, conserving athletes that donate to charity, I'm afraid, even if it should be.

    26. Re:perhaps he has the best reward there is by Dixie_Flatline · · Score: 1

      I'd really like to know where you got 'USA-basher' out of my post. I went back and re-read it and confirmed that the point I was trying to get across that it doesn't matter how great your country is, you're going to get it in the pants in the perceptions game for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is that basically nobody in the 5.7 billion non-US population has any love for GWB at all.

      Your country gets a lot of scrutiny. There's a lot of misperception and misconception about your country, but think about the news that comes out about your country on a day to day basis. Evolution is more strongly accepted in just about every nation on Earth, including the ones that define themselves as strongly Christian. Your country, a symbol for individual human rights, struggles with Gay Rights and the PATRIOT act and pharmacists that won't give contraceptives to women because they think it's wrong.

      Is it fair that all Americans get painted with the same brush? I hardly think so; no more than it's fair to associate purely negative things to any group of people. However, it's not something that America has ever tried to change, or perhaps has any particular desire to change. That's fine, good for you for having a thick skin. But if you're going to complain that you're not getting a fair shake, think about the things that are likely to be seen by the rest of the world first and work to change that image.

    27. Re:perhaps he has the best reward there is by khallow · · Score: 1

      I don't disagree with you. Misperception is at the heart of this matter. But in the end, perception is usually what counts for the most, not truth. Are all people on welfare lazy and unmotivated? No, not at all. Yet, this is often the perception that is held, and it's hard to dissuade people of it. People see the Chinese government as overbearing, overly intrusive and cruel. From their perspective, I'm sure they think they're decisive, concerned and driven.

      Reality is really what counts here not perception, not "truth". IMHO virtual all mistakes made are because someone's perception didn't match reality. To use the 2004 US presidential elections as an example, the Democrats nominated a candidate with no executive experience. If you look at past presidents over the 20th century, they all had experience in an office like governor, vice president or president of the US, Secretary of one of the major departments (eg, War/Defense, State, etc), or a significant general. Only John F. Kennedy came in having a few years of US Senator under his belt. In other words, the Democrats nominated a person with less executive experience than all but one US president. They nominated a person who spent his three months in Vietnam successfully getting out of Vietnam. Many people perceive that as being a "coward". Then that person hopped from political job to political job till they because one of the two senators from Massachuessets. Ie, the person was a pure political hack (ie, not having a real job) on the top of their other qualities.

      The election of 2004 just shows that if you run sufficiently weak opponents, even G. W. Bush can get reelected.

      I'm really not trying to get into a debate about the relative merits of your country and political system. I'm merely trying to point out that the World's perception of your population is poor, with GWB being among the many reasons. International geeks also get to read about your Net Neutrality Act, the PATRIOT act, and every mistake Homeland Security makes. The truth of the matter is largely irrelevant. You have an image problem.

      Trying to be popular is a losing game when the crowd is biased against you. The US has interests that occasionally conflict even with our closest allies. We have beliefs and cultures that are different and will probably stay that way. The US also is a convenient scapegoat for many disfunctional societies in the Third World. So why take the effort to be nice when you lose it each time you have a disagreement? I think everyone would be better off if they understood that everyone else has different goals and isn't going to agree on everything.
    28. Re:perhaps he has the best reward there is by Dixie_Flatline · · Score: 1

      Trying to be popular is a losing game when the crowd is biased against you. The US has interests that occasionally conflict even with our closest allies. We have beliefs and cultures that are different and will probably stay that way. The US also is a convenient scapegoat for many disfunctional societies in the Third World. So why take the effort to be nice when you lose it each time you have a disagreement? I think everyone would be better off if they understood that everyone else has different goals and isn't going to agree on everything.

      That's the World Peace problem in a nutshell. I don't think we'll live to see it. :(

    29. Re:perhaps he has the best reward there is by truebranch · · Score: 1

      You instigate a conflict and then label those who respond by tearing down your arguments as defensive. One should expect a defense proportional to one's offense, a lesson you should perhaps contemplate before you attempt to escalate your pretensions against others.

      >I'll summarize for you again, and maybe you'll read what I'm putting in the text as opposed >to things that I didn't explicitly write: it doesn't matter what you think of your country >when dealing with stereotypes. It doesn't matter what the truth of the situation is.

      You're disingenuously backpedalling as I've watched you do numerous times with other posters who've called you on your anti-Americanism. You've argued for more than an image problem-- You've argued that anti-Americanism, in the crude and hypocritical forms in which you have expressed it is completely justifiable. There's no benefit to concealing your malice once you've announced it to the world.

      You've defended those who single out America for their scorn in this forum and such people rarely apportion blame equally amongst China, Russia, and the United States. Your favoritism is there, inferrable from context-- Despite yet another attempt to backpedal. Not all communication is explicit. More than 50% of what you say, in fact, is reflected in how you say something or what you choose not to say, as opposed to what you explicitly state as a matter of record, and most implicit communication inferences people draw are well defined within a particular language group. I saw what you were saying, and I called you on it because it is illogical and hypocritical, for no other reason.

      Regarding the softwood lumber issue I'm inclined to think the US government is too agressive in trying to selectively enforce international agreements to its benefit but you took aim at the population as a whole and provoked my response in that way. I'd never object to your point about softwood in proper context, although it is an odd one from the mouth of an environmentalist hippie. I suppose I also find the sudden concern for athleticism and health of Americans to be a bit unusual if you're not prepared to condemn the equally unhealthy pot smoking and acid dropping that exemplefies hippiedom. (Not that I didn't dabble a bit myself in the early years:)

      My biggest concern with anti-Americanism is not legitimate criticism of American government, culture, or society, but hypocritical criticism emanating from three sources:

      1) Envy of America's preeminence
      2) Resentment of American capitalism (the debate with socialists is fine but they shouldn't invent pretexts to criticize America that they're unwilling to apply to countries that practice their ideals)
      3) America's defense of Israel. The world is unreasonable on what it expects Israel to tolerate from its Islamist enemies. China and Russia in particular would resort to genocide on a neighbor sooner than be subjected to the barrage of missiles that came from Lebanon into Israel recently, yet they pounded the table and demanded that Israel cease military operations. This dark double standard looms like a spectre over international relations, and I believe the US has erred in compromising too much with it, if anything.

      When you start nitpicking something like our energy consumption while admitting your own per capita is worse, and saying nothing about the clear-cutting of rain forests in Brazil because it's not expedient to pick on them right now, I see you as part of a trend of anti-Americanism that goes beyond the rational problems we should be seeking to solve in a spirit of cooperation. And that hypocrisy, representative of a kind of irrational ill-will, that invariable points to 1 through 3.

      I'm willing to solve the real problems that America has, but 1 through 3 are not our problems. They are the shortcomings of our enemies.

    30. Re:perhaps he has the best reward there is by Dixie_Flatline · · Score: 1

      I can't possibly list all the things that are wrong with all the other countries in the world. I'm well aware of China's human rights record, the fact that Putin seems to be trying to push his country back towards a total dictatorship, Brazil's continuing rape of the rainforests and our government's inability to stop oil companies from destroying the land around the oil sands as well as refusing to enact any meaningful legislation to actually clean things up and make people change how they use energy. All of these things are well known to me. I personally feel that everyone should stop picking on Israel and try to get on with their lives without a tiny little patch of land that's barely enough for the Jews to call home. To ask me to criticize everyone equally is an impossible task, and I'm not going to get started on it. I can only work on what's wrong in my own country in a meaningful fashion, and I do what I can when I can.

      All of this is entirely beside the point.

      This all started with this post: "It's probably even harder for indoctrinated non-Americans to understand that the vast majority of Americans aren't particularly narcissistic, or remotely wealthy. At this point, in fact, the bulk of us are starting to get pretty damn sick and tired of both those SUV-driving narcissistic fuckwits that we have to contend with on the way to work every day, and judgmental foreigners that insist upon treating America (of all countries) as a monolithic culture. "

      I still don't have anything in particular against America, certainly no more so than any other country. The only reason you're having this conversation with me at all is because I decided to step up and give a reason for the reason you Americans get so much flak. You don't have to accept anything that I say, but I represent a viewpoint that's

      a) external to your worldview by virtue of literally being outside of the situation
      b) probably not far off from what most of these other 'judgemental foreigners'

      Your country has problems. You'll admit that much, obviously; you've said as much yourself.

      If you've read my other posts, you'll note that I also said that you're probably the most scrutinized nation on earth. The fact that I know what's going on in some of your mid-term election primaries speaks to the fact that I can get news about your country from where I'm sitting, thousands of kilometres away.

      The grandparent poster wanted us 'judgemental foreigners' to back off, and I was giving some reasons for why we seem so critical. It doesn't matter if you agree or not, I'm afraid. You'll also have to concede that there are a lot of outsiders that have a dim view of your population and your administration.

      Let me point out something that's particularly telling about YOUR post, while we're here anyway.

      Your three points aren't the 'shortcomings of [your] enemies'. Realistically, there are a lot of people allied with you that think these things or harbour these feelings. You really need to chuck this 'you're either with us or against us' shtick. It's not endearing, and it's a false assertion. Canada didn't join you in Iraq. This doesn't mean that we're against you. My fellow citizens happily took in American people stranded in our airports when 9/11 happened. I'm sure we'd do it again.

      Anti-Americanism isn't any more acceptable than anti-Islamism, but again I ask: what else would you have the world think of you? Only a small number of Muslims are crazy enough to blow themselves up to hurt other people, but a whole religious group is being painted with the same brush because the majority that doesn't kill people haven't spoken up loudly enough. As with most groups, the loudest and most obnoxious are the ones that you notice. For most of us in the world, your President is as loud and obnoxious as they come. Anne Coulter and Rush Limbaugh and O'Reilly are all crazy loud people that you can hear all the way across the pond. You've got John Steward and Stephen Colbert trying to even out the odds, but then the nex

    31. Re:perhaps he has the best reward there is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unfortunately, in the United States, George W. Bush *is* a moderate conservative. There are far more extreme viewpoints represented by individuals such as Pat Robertson that are fairly popular. While there are many ultraconservative leaders and they tend to follow their own leaders in small groups instead of organizing into a larger body, their attitudes are a substantial influence on American policy.

      This is sad but true. Consider nuking us while you can. The world might be better off, even accounting for the ecological damage.

    32. Re:perhaps he has the best reward there is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bravo.

  4. I salute Grigory by PresidentEnder · · Score: 2, Insightful

    not necessarily for his typical genius mathematician nutty professor image (from which this behavior seems to stem; see Einstein's quick switch from young stud to crazy haired geek, on purpose), but because of the interest it seems to be reawakening in Mathematics.

    --
    I used to carry a bottle of whiskey for snake bite. And two snakes. -Nefarious Wheel
    1. Re:I salute Grigory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As a show of solidarity to Grigory, perhaps I should publish my proof that P=NP to Usenet... Of course, I guess people have been publishing /that/ proof to Usenet for years... ;)

  5. Note in blog margin from Perelman by L7_ · · Score: 4, Funny

    I have discovered a truely marvelous demonstration of the Poincaré conjecture that this blog is too narrow to contain.

    1. Re:Note in blog margin from Perelman by aliscool · · Score: 1

      I wish I had some mod points buddy, thats funny as hell.

    2. Re:Note in blog margin from Perelman by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Heh very funny :) I wonder how many will get the Fermat reference?

    3. Re:Note in blog margin from Perelman by WilliamSChips · · Score: 1

      Now say it in Latin.

      --
      Please, for the good of Humanity, vote Obama.
    4. Re:Note in blog margin from Perelman by ObsessiveMathsFreak · · Score: 1
      I have discovered a truely marvelous demonstration of the Poincaré conjecture that this blog is too narrow to contain.

      Replace "blog" with "pre-print" and you've just about hit the nail on the head. Perelman's "proof" was an outline, and one so terse it took four years to fill in all the details. Quite frankly I don't think he should have been offerred a medal at all, but such is the state of modern mathematics.
      --
      May the Maths Be with you!
    5. Re:Note in blog margin from Perelman by rbarreira · · Score: 1

      What's four years in mathematics? It took several centuries to prove many things in mathematics (and sometimes, even to independently discover things which were already known by other people). Are you challenging that Perelman was the one who made the critical breakthrough?

      --

      The AACS key is NOT 0xF606EEFD628B1CA427BEA93A9CA9773F
    6. Re:Note in blog margin from Perelman by try_anything · · Score: 1

      If making a half-baked sketch and passing it off to the best mathematicians in world to fill in the details were all it took to solve major problems and take credit for it, no problem would remain unsolved for a decade, let alone a century.

      Many people have laid out sketches where the gaps and hand-waving concealed glossed over such hard problems that no proof resulted. That it took only a few years to fill in the details, and the first mathematicians to do so gave full credit to Perelman, proves that Perelman actually did the hard work and left relatively easy parts unspecified.

      Of course, many people before him provided important pieces. Perelman was simply the one who supplied the last batch of brilliant contributions. It's a bit like thrusting the final spear into the mammoth and sitting down for a well-deserved rest while someone else butchers and cooks it.

  6. grand, but not so grand by User+956 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The Fields Medal, like the Nobel Prize, grew, in part, out of a desire to elevate science above national animosities.

    And dynamite. Pretty much the coolest invention ever. I don't know why anyone wouldn't list that first.

    --
    The theory of relativity doesn't work right in Arkansas.
  7. That's Grigori? by The+MAZZTer · · Score: 2, Funny

    I thought he was a church pastor living in Ravenholm... huh... learn something new everyday.

    1. Re:That's Grigori? by jrmiller84 · · Score: 1

      Oh yeah, and he's got one hell of a graveyard setup.

      --
      I will forever be a student.
  8. Poor guy. by Lord+Aurora · · Score: 1
    If you RTFA, it turns out that Perelman wants a couple friends, and they don't have to be mathematicians, either.

    I guess solving one of the most puzzling mathematical conjectures in history kinda makes everything else seem dim by comparison...now he just wants someone to have a beer with.

    Maybe he refused it 'cuz he didn't want to look like an untouchable.

    --
    The heavens do not fall for such a trifle.
    1. Re:Poor guy. by Muhammar · · Score: 1

      "...now he just wants someone to have a beer with" ...or a jug of buttermilk and some mushroom goulash

      --
      I doubt that we will ever figure out - and I suspect that even if we did figure out we couldn't do much about it
    2. Re:Poor guy. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      now he just wants someone to have a beer with.

      He's Russian. He wants someone to have vodka with.

  9. From the Wikipedia entry. by Slithe · · Score: 0
    At the beginning of the 20th century, Henri Poincaré was working on the foundations of topology -- what would later be called combinatorial topology and then algebraic topology. He was particularly interested in what topological properties characterized a sphere.


    Damn! He is OLD!
    --
    ---- "XML is like violence. If it doesn't fix the problem, you aren't using enough."
  10. I must have dyslexia... by Slithe · · Score: 1

    I was reading the article on the Poincaré conjecture, and went to another tab, and when I came back, I thought I was still on the Perelman page. I am sorry about that.

    --
    ---- "XML is like violence. If it doesn't fix the problem, you aren't using enough."
  11. So basically.... by Ritz_Just_Ritz · · Score: 1

    A Chinese mathematician with a history of "borrowing" or "aggregating" other people's research is trying to take credit for something a Russian mathematician has done. When the Poincare chip is produced, they'll mask over P for Perelman and insert a Y for Yau...until enough people scream....and then the Chinese government will indignantly run Yau out of town...

    The more things change....

  12. Nothing to see here... by fmoliveira · · Score: 1

    He already has enough money, his work is enough recognition for him and he is tired of the math community.

    1. Re:Nothing to see here... by Monty845 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The funny part is Perelman will be remembered in the field of mathematics as much for his integrity as for his accomplishment. Whereas Yau will probly be relegated to obscurity...

  13. I had an EVIL professor by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    at the university that I studied my PhD. He was Chinesse, and he made his research/teaching assistants carry his hand-bag. And later he was kicked out of the university, because he was forcing his assistants to give $200-$300 of their salaries back to him as cash. He was threatening to end their assistantship such that they would have to go back to China, since they sponsor their graduate program via their asistantship...

    This Yau fella sounds just like him.

  14. Re:I thought it was because Perelman... by fimbulvetr · · Score: 5, Funny

    Give it a rest, Yau.

  15. Parallels between Wiles and Perelman by amightywind · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I find the parallels between Perelman's proof of Thurston's Conjecture and Wiles proof of Fermat to be compelling:

    • Both men benefited from ingenious strategic breakthough made by other men: The Frey Curve proposed by Gerhard Frey linked Fermat with Tanyama-Shimura, and the Ricci Flow idea Hamilton provided the basis for Perelman's deep refinements. Both ideas can be readily understood by laymen.
    • Both men dragged the enabling idea over the line virtually alone fighting though unimaginable difficulty. (These are not easily understood by laymen!)

    Obviously the standing of Wiles and Perelman in the mathematical community couldn't be more different. Lets hope Perelman accepts an academic position somewhere so he can carry on his work with the honor he deserves.

    The attempts by the Chinese to claim proof of Poincare is disgusting.

    --
    an ill wind that blows no good
    1. Re:Parallels between Wiles and Perelman by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't forget Ribet's contribution to Wiles' proof.

    2. Re:Parallels between Wiles and Perelman by junglee_iitk · · Score: 1

      What I don't understand is the attempt to make it all look like China vs. ethical us!

    3. Re:Parallels between Wiles and Perelman by amightywind · · Score: 1

      I certainly don't. But Ribets Theorem is a whole lot harder to grasp than the idea of a Frey Curve.

      --
      an ill wind that blows no good
    4. Re:Parallels between Wiles and Perelman by Sage+Gaspar · · Score: 1

      I dunno who you mean by "ethical us," but Perelman actually acknowledges in the story that this kind of thing does happen throughout mathematics. China is pretty central to this story, though; I can't tell you the exact reason without making some big guesses, but it seems like Chinese mathematics is dominated by this one guy who's managed to reach the top of the pecking order and has absolute say over one of their big journals. He purportedly did some pretty reprehensible things to his student, who was cowed into not responding because of the expectations of Chinese society.

    5. Re:Parallels between Wiles and Perelman by Coryoth · · Score: 1

      I have to ask how you consider the Frey Curve and Ricci Flow to be "easily understood by laymen". Certainly the content is easier than the messy technical detail involved in hammering out the fine points of Perelman's and Wiles' proofs, but "easily understood by laymen" seems to be taking it rather too far.

    6. Re:Parallels between Wiles and Perelman by Fnkmaster · · Score: 1

      A lot of it is due to Chinese nationalism. It's not clear to me that Yao is primarily a crazy egomaniac, though he clearly has a strong interest in his own legacy, but I do know that the sense of Chinese nationalism and cultural superiority is an absolutely huge, defining factor in much of Chinese science. I think this factor and its influence was underestimated in this article as an explanatory factor for some of the Chinese professor's actions - this is exactly *why* being able to claim credit here translates directly to political and economic power back in China.

    7. Re:Parallels between Wiles and Perelman by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Wtf? Did you miss the fact that the original person to verify the proof was a Chinese fellow and promptly called for arwarding the honour to Perleman? This is about Yau's lack of ethics, not the Chinese. Racist much?

    8. Re:Parallels between Wiles and Perelman by amightywind · · Score: 1

      y^2 = x (x - a^p) (x + b^p) where p represents a solution of Fermat is fairly easy to grasp. df/df = grad f where f is a measure of surface curvature. Again not that hard to grasp compared to the horrors that follow.

      --
      an ill wind that blows no good
    9. Re:Parallels between Wiles and Perelman by rbarreira · · Score: 1

      Maybe by Chinese he meant just Yau...

      --

      The AACS key is NOT 0xF606EEFD628B1CA427BEA93A9CA9773F
    10. Re:Parallels between Wiles and Perelman by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      yes, i do believe the Chinese refers to Yau, the Chinese one or the Chinese man

  16. Perelman is like Linus! by sudog · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Eliminating politics by refusing to actively participate in them!

    What an impressive joy to read about the man. He helps build my faith in humanity.

    1. Re:Perelman is like Linus! by Ruie · · Score: 1
      Eliminating politics by refusing to actively participate in them!

      What an impressive joy to read about the man. He helps build my faith in humanity.

      2 people out of how many billions ? You, my friend, are an optimist.

      I know some other nice people, but my point still stands - a handful of diamonds scattered on the beach will not make it sparkle - especially after several tides passed through.

      Now, if you had reason to believe that humans improve as a species and in 100 years we can expect everyone to be at least that nice, that would be a completely different discussion..

    2. Re:Perelman is like Linus! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't think Linus would ever turn down a Field's Medal or any award. This is a guy who named his OS after himself.

    3. Re:Perelman is like Linus! by WilliamSChips · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You're kidding me, right? You may be right about Perelman but Linus has been political from day one.

      --
      Please, for the good of Humanity, vote Obama.
    4. Re:Perelman is like Linus! by innocent_white_lamb · · Score: 1

      Actually, Linus is a guy who had someone else name the OS after him when he uploaded the original version to a FTP server without any particular name at all. The guy who ran the server decided to call it Linux. Linus didn't call it anything at all, other than a new project.

      --
      If you're a zombie and you know it, bite your friend!
    5. Re:Perelman is like Linus! by sudog · · Score: 1

      You have poor reading comprehension; plus, you're classless.

    6. Re:Perelman is like Linus! by sudog · · Score: 1

      Does he actively attempt to try to influence external politics? He simply answers questions in interviews, and is perfectly honest about his opinions. If he were political, he'd be much better at attempting to influence other people. He exists beyond that; what he works on, he works on. What he wants to do, he does. He doesn't have vast wealth, and doesn't appear to be outwardly bitter about how rich everyone else is getting from his work. He is selfless in the best sense of the term, and so far everything I've read about Perelman instills me with the same sense of joy that Linus' effort does.

      He collects no royalties; he licenses nothing; he turned down $10mil in options; in these ways, Linus is a great deal like Perelman, and vice versa, and we are all enriched by them both, and owe them both great respect and gratitude.

    7. Re:Perelman is like Linus! by WilliamSChips · · Score: 1

      You have obviously never heard of the Tanenbaum flamewars.

      --
      Please, for the good of Humanity, vote Obama.
    8. Re:Perelman is like Linus! by Ruie · · Score: 1
      You have poor reading comprehension; plus, you're classless.

      So you deny being an optimist ? :)

    9. Re:Perelman is like Linus! by sudog · · Score: 1

      Yes I have. I read the thread in the mid-90s. That was a technical merits discussion, and had nothing to do with politics. Additionally, the "ascetic" tone of the thread and the fact that it was a flamewar is direct proof that politics had little to nothing to do with that discussion. If it had, it would have been written in such a way as to persuade and cajole rather than butt heads.

      This is my last response to you; this thread is pointless and so is further discussion with you.

    10. Re:Perelman is like Linus! by sudog · · Score: 1

      I deny nothing, because I never said I was one way or the other. This is my last response to you; this thread is pointless and discussion with you is also pointless. Marinate in your emo-like angst all you like. We both know that unless you carry your apparent misanthropy and self-loathing to its logical conclusion, it's nothing but a cry for help.

      End of Line.

  17. Bottom Line..... by pablo_max · · Score: 1

    These Professional math guy are odd ducks. There is now telling why he did or did not do something. Who really cares in the end? The math establishment..that's about it. I'm sure most people don't know how much politics actually take place in math and science. It's not hard to imagine this guys wants nothing to do with these people. Just see how they freaked out in mock horror that he would not take their uber prise. Just let him solve his math problems and be happy...I know I will be happy whether or not he takes it.

  18. Michael Anderson Quote by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative
    The following was a response to the article disseminated through one of Stony Brook's email lists:

    The New Yorker article badly distorted my comments and the quote given is very inaccurate and misleading. I've already discussed it with Yau and expressed to him my apologies and disgust at using my name in this respect. I tried to have the quote removed, but was unsuccessful, partly because I was travelling in Europe while all this happened very quickly and I had no time respond.

    I spent a good deal of time talking with Sylvia Nasar trying to convince her to avoid discussion of the Tian-Yau fight since it is irrelevant to Perelman, Poincare, etc. But obviously I was not successful. In this particular respect, I feel the New Yorker has done a disservice to mathematicians.

    Sincerely, Michael Anderson
    1. Re:Michael Anderson Quote by pedantic+bore · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Translation: Anderson is afraid of Yau.

      --
      Am I part of the core demographic for Swedish Fish?
    2. Re:Michael Anderson Quote by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      More like
      Anderson is getting something from Yau and doesn't want future prospects to dry up
      What that is I'll let you see for yourself, it shouldn't be long at this rate

  19. Biased and Distorted Article by wwind123 · · Score: 5, Interesting
    Some mathematitians that were quoted in this New Yorker artcile have expressed anger that the authors distorted their words. Here's a collection of those mathmettians clarification, both English and the Chinese translation:

    http://mitbbs.com/mitbbs_article_t.php?board=Mathe matics&gid=10840706&ftype=0

    I'll paste just the English version here so everybody can have a look:

    ====

    From Dan Stroock at MIT:

    Clarification

    I, like several others whom Sylvia Nasar interviewed, am shocked and angered by the article which she and Gruber wrote for the New Yorker. Havingseen Yau in action during his June conference on string theory, Nasar ledme to believe that she was fascinated by S-T Yau and asked me my opinionabout his activities. I told her that I greatly admire Yau's efforts tosupport young Chinese mathematicians and to break down the ossifiedpower structure in the Chinese academic establishment. I then told her that I sometimes have doubts about his methodology. In particular, I toldher that, at least to my ears, Yau weakens his case and lays himself opento his enemies by sounding too self-promoting. As it appears in her article, she has purposefully distorted my statementand made it unforgivably misleading. Like the rest of us, Yau has hisfaults, but, unlike most of us, his virtues outweigh his faults.Unfortunately, Nasar used my statement to bolster her casethat the opposite is true, and for this I cannot forgive her.

    ====

    From Michael Anderson at Stony Brook:

    Dear Yau,

    I am furious, and completely shocked, at what Sylvia Nasar wrote. Her quote of me is completely wrong and baseless. There are other factual mistakes in the article, in addition to those you pointed out. I have left her phone and email messages this evening and hope to speakto her tomorrow at the latest to clear this up. I want her to remove this statement completely from the article. It serves no purpose and contains no factual information; I view it as stupid gossip unworthy of a paper like the New Yorker. At the moment, the print version has not appeared and so it might be possible to fix this still. I spent several hours with S. Nasar on the phone talking about Perelman, Poincare , etc but it seems I was too naive and I'm now disgusted in believing this journalist would report factually. I regret very much this quote falsely attributed to me and will do whatever I can to have it removed. I will keep you informed as I know more.

    Yours, Michael

    ====

    More clarification from Anderson:

    Many of you have probably seen the New Yorker article by Sylvia Nasar and David Gruber on Perelman and the Poincare conjecture. In many respects, its very interesting and a pleasure to read. However,it contains a number of inaccuracies and downright errors. I spent several hours talking with Sylvia Nasar trying to dissuade her from incorporating the Tian-Yau fights into the article, since it was completely irrelevant and I didn't see the point of dragging readers through the mud . Obviously I was not successful. The quote attributed to me on Yau is completely inaccurate and distortedfrom some remarks I made to her in a quite different context; I made itexplicit to her that the remarks I was making in that context were purely speculative and had no basis in fact. I did not give her my permission to quote me on this, even with the qualification of speculation. There are other inaccuracies about Stony Brook. One for instance is theimplication that Tian at MIT was the first to invite Perelman to the USto give talks . This is of course false - we at Stony Brook were the first to do so. I stressed in my talks with her the role Stony Brook played,yet she focusses on the single talk Grisha gave at Princeton, listing a collection of eminent mathematicians, none of whom is a geometer/topologist. I was not given an opportun

    1. Re:Biased and Distorted Article by Sage+Gaspar · · Score: 1

      Some people might be skeptical about this, by the way, especially not being able to read the site, but I am able to confirm that at least one of those people was fuming about being misquoted in the article. Reading their quote from the article, it does seem like the kind of thing that can be taken out of context by an author trying to spin a story.

    2. Re:Biased and Distorted Article by apis72 · · Score: 1

      It looks little bit suspicious for me that all those guys posted their e-mails on Chinese speaking web site. But who knows...

    3. Re:Biased and Distorted Article by Goldsmith · · Score: 1

      To paraphrase Perelman, mathmaticians are not policians. I am sure that none of these guys had any idea what their words would look like on paper after going through a journalist's filter. Evidently, they have not learned their lesson.

      Look at the comment by Anderson that "I spent several hours talking with Sylvia Nasar trying to dissuade her from incorporating the Tian-Yau fights into the article." By attacking the inclusion of that in the article, he opens himself up as an example of the declining morality of science and willingness for scientists to be put under public scrutiny. Often in science it is true that we would rather the public not know about the (sometimes very personal) fights which accompany scientific criticism. It is interesting that Yau is an outspoken advocate of scientific reform in China, and has been willing to subject his past feuds to public scrutiny.

    4. Re:Biased and Distorted Article by Ruie · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Not that journalists haven't been known to manipulate a few words here and then, but these clarifications just do not sound as a solid rebuttal at all - more like politics. They dispute the attribution of the words, rather then their content and, at that, take care not to explicitly say "I really think the reverse of what was printed in the article".

    5. Re:Biased and Distorted Article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is shocking to me to see celebrated mathematicians rushing to apologise for saying the truth about Chairman Yau.
      What can possibly Yao do to the "Simons Professor of Mathematics at MIT", and the rest of apologetic sprinters?
      Now I better understand how seemingly good folks like Helmut Hasse and Wilhelm Blaschke also ran -- to join the Nazis...

      "Biased and Distorted Article"? Is this all the gents have to say about Sylvia Nasar?

      The trust is, Sylvia proved having much bigger balls than apologetic gents.
      We all ought to thank Nasar for doing such an enormous favor to the maths community.

      Thank you, Sylvia!
      I am sorry that maths folks are such chickens and such traitors.
      Write a book, show the world what mathematicians are made of.
      Expose this burning desire for perks and privilege without the slightest sense of civic obligation and responsibilty.

      How can anyone make fun of Perelman, who expressed the altimate contempt for privileges everyone else so badly lusts for, and Chairman Yau most of all!

    6. Re:Biased and Distorted Article by Uma+Opra · · Score: 1

      It is shocking to me to see celebrated mathematicians rushing to pologize for saying privately what they truly thought about Chairman Yau.
      What can possibly Yao do to the "Simons Professor of Mathematics at MIT" (Stroock), or the rest of apologetic sprinters?
      Now I better understand how seemingly good folks like Helmut Hasse and Wilhelm Blaschke also ran -- in the 1930s -- to join the Nazis...

      The apologizers then blamed the journalilst, Sylvia Naser, for all the ills in the maths community. Can't you comprehend that Syliva did not create moral problems, but reflected their existence?
      "Biased and Distorted Article," Iread. Is this all the gents have to say about Sylvia Nasar?

      The truth (as I see it) is, Sylvia proved having much bigger balls than the apologetic gents.
      We all ought to thank Nasar for doing such an enormous favor to the maths community.
      Thank you, Sylvia!
      I am sorry that maths folks afraid of their own shadow.
      Expand your article to a book, show the world what mathematicians are made of.
      Expose these claims of entitlement to perks and privilege without assuming the slightest civic obligation and responsibility.

      How can anyone make fun of Perelman, who expressed the ultimate contempt for privileges and perks everyone else so badly lusts for, and Chairman Yau most of all!
      Isn't Perelman absolutely right when he speaks about most mathematicians tolerating immorality?

      I hope this story will serve as a wake-up call, but I am skeptical about awakening a dead body.

    7. Re:Biased and Distorted Article by sk2006 · · Score: 1

      "saying the truth"? They said that the article distorted their comments. All people in the story admited Perelman's contribution to solve the problem. But the contravorsy was caused by his strange behavior: he did not submit his manuscripts for publication as he had done before. Note that no math journal would publish a "sketch". en.wikipedia.com says:"Perelman's outline can indeed be expanded into a complete proof ..." An outline, or in Perelman's own word "sketch", is not a proof. Moreover, in his second famous preprint, Perelman said that another paper with the proof of Theorem 7.4 would be given, but it is still not available. There are two versions of Perelman's so called Theorem 7.4. One is the strong version with only two conditions, which no proof is available except for Perelman's "sketch". The other is a weak version with an additional condition, which might be too weak to use according to Kleiner & Lott.

  20. Honorable Guy. by nonsequitor · · Score: 4, Insightful
    The article concluded that he refused the Field's Medal because of a lack of ethics surrounding who is credited with the work.
    "As long as I was not conspicuous, I had a choice," Perelman explained. "Either to make some ugly thing"--a fuss about the math community's lack of integrity--"or, if I didn't do this kind of thing, to be treated as a pet. Now, when I become a very conspicuous person, I cannot stay a pet and say nothing. That is why I had to quit."
    The article, while quite lengthy, describes how some of the Chinese, Yau and those who work for him, have been "fixing" people's proofs and claiming them as original work. Yau tried to do it again with Perelman's proof and got shot down, again. Considering that Yau is still a respected member of the Math community, Perelman does not want to belong to that community. It is nice to see some people in this world still have some integrity. Perelman refuses to make a fuss out of this, he's not in it for his own gain.
    1. Re:Honorable Guy. by novus+ordo · · Score: 1
      Perelman would not say whether his objection to awards extended to the Clay Institute's million-dollar prize. "I'm not going to decide whether to accept the prize until it is offered," he said.
      They offer the prize 2 years from publication, so unless the matter isn't settled until then, there will be some people scratching their heads. The article says that Perelman earned "more than enough" in America in his early career to last the rest of his life, but he's living with his mother on a diet consisting of "bread, cheese and milk." I doubt a extra cash is ever overlooked by someone that is frugal.
      --
      "You're everywhere. You're omnivorous."
    2. Re:Honorable Guy. by Valdrax · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The article says that Perelman earned "more than enough" in America in his early career to last the rest of his life, but he's living with his mother on a diet consisting of "bread, cheese and milk." I doubt a extra cash is ever overlooked by someone that is frugal.

      I disagree. If he is convinced that he has "enough," then he really means it. Even while living in America, he had to live an ascetic life to earn enough money to save up to pay for the rest of his life in Russia. To a person who had access to the sort of money to live a more extravagant life and who didn't in the past, a prize like this means nothing financially.

      His needs are met. Any other raise in his standard of living is just more expense and more distraction. I envy people like this who can be happy with nothing but the basics.

      --
      If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
  21. Standing up against Yau by slidersv · · Score: 0

    So basically it's one man in front of an egomaniacal tank of Yau ... familiar picture that is.

    --
    there is no issue with my network
  22. I read that the main reason for his hermitage... by TheNoxx · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Perelman did not leave his position at the Steklov Institute as the article suggests, but rather, he was not allowed to return to his position. I believe that he already had a fairly reclusive and modest personality, and as was pointed out by the Sydney Morning Herald, the extremity of this nature was prompted when the faculty of the Steklov Institute declined to re-elect him as a member; his peers and close colleagues rejected him, the paper quotes a friend as saying that Perelman was made to feel as an "absolutely ungifted and untalented person". Wikipedia has more, saying that this stemmed "apparently in part out of continuing doubt over his claims regarding the geometrization conjecture".

    There are few things more bitter than being betrayed by one, let alone a majority or all of your associates. I know all too well how that kind of utterly profound pain can easily turn one of your greatest passions in life (be it a pursuit or a person) into a source for nothing other than misery.

    --
    Ex nihilo nihil fit.
  23. Poincare cenjecture doesn't seem to hard by zymano · · Score: 1

    The examples are always about doughnuts and coffee cups.

    I could figure it out after a morning breakfast.

  24. Link Error by Mindcry · · Score: 1

    Grigori Perelman

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grigori_Perelman

    gri, not gre

    1. Re:Link Error by Faylone · · Score: 1

      Well, there's now a redirect, so that should work fine.

  25. Depiction of Dr.Yau in the Article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    The entire article felt like the author wanted to sensationalize the internal politics within the Mathematical community. I would doubt Dr. Yau is half as terrible as the article makes him out to be. Of course in order to make this an interesting we need a despicable antogonist to go up against our beloved math genius. I thought the article was terribly written, but the more I read it, the more it made me want to hate Dr. Yau. I usually get that feeling from a partisan political story.

    1. Re:Depiction of Dr.Yau in the Article by helveticon · · Score: 1

      Yes, I have to agree with pedantic bore's translation:

      "Anderson is (now) afraid of Yau".

      Michael T. Anderson (SUNY at Stony Brook) probably thought that he would not be quoted, that his ideas were going to be presented without a direct link to his name. As I'll explain he seems to have had enough motives to use this opportunity to execute his own vendetta against Shing-Tung Yau (Harvard) by instigating reporters to deviate from main topic of the Poincaré Conjecture and Thurston's Geometrization conjecture to an indictment of Yau, and his work.

      In my opinion there is little doubt that the article by Gruber and Nasar is grossly biased against Shing-Tung Yau, and to a lesser extent to his collaborators, including Richard S. Hamilton (Columbia). However I don't think that it is correct to blame only the reporters for this. I believe in spite of claims that the quotes are inaccurate, out-of-context, ... they are probably correct. It is common for reporters to face such claims and professionals are normally prepared for possible denials. In fact, we might find out that everything said in this case is recorded on tape.

      If we are willing to assume that the quotes are correct, then the question remains: why Nasar and Gruber came up with an article so denigrating of Yau, Hamilton, and/or Chinese mathematics? Most likely they were led into this direction by the people they interviewed.. This does not completely clear them, since they did fail miserably in investigating the possible reasons those interviewed had for badmouthing Shing-Tung Yau and his collaborators.

      I'll present just one single example to make my point. To some in the field it has been known that for many years Mike Anderson had also been behind proving Thurston's Geometrization Conjecture, and hence Poincaré's Conjecture. He wrote several extremely long papers and claimed to have proved the conjecture. People were a little suspicious about Anderson's work mainly because it did not involve any new ideas, and because it was so long and almost repetitive. To honor what appeared to be a tremendous achievement by Michael T. Anderson, Shing-Tung Yau, in a very generous and friendly gesture promised to dedicate at least one issueof the Journal of Differential Geometry [JDG] in its entirety exclusively to Anderson's work. Yau is the Editor-in-Chief of this prestigious publication. In contrast with Perelman's choice, Anderson did not post his articles at arxiv.org, or made them very widely available. After the announcements and celebrations the review process started in secrecy, Anderson was probably afraid somebody might fix his gaps and find and fix errors, forcing him to share the honor. However after a few months problems appeared with Anderson's work. Whether they were serious or not is not for me to say. But Yau reluctantly decided that Anderson's work was not up to the high standards of the JDG, and explicitly told him to look for another place to publish his work. Assuming he could fix it.

      Mike Anderson sincerely believed he had solved the problem of the century. He even had a celebration at the end of his sequence of summer lectures at Stony Brook, with food and champagne. Peter Zograf (Steklov Mathematical Institute, Saint Petersburg), Dennis Parnell Sullivan (CUNY), and other well known mathematicians were present. Some where privately a little skeptic, but they honored Anderson anyway. After having received all this recognition, and in spite of the existence of objections by the referee, it was probably very hard for Anderson to swallow Yau's refusal to allow his paper to appear in the Journal of Differential Geometry, probably the most prestigious publication for geometers. Anderson appealed Yau's decision. He even tried to get other mathematicians to intercede. But Yau did not see any reasons to change his opinion. At that moment Anderson might have felt that Yau was acting "as a k

  26. There's no controversy by Dixie_Flatline · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Perelman will be the one that goes down in history as the one that solved the conjecture to a satisfactory degree, no matter who else releases papers that pretend that his work was incomprehensible. That sort of argument doesn't really stand up very well, anyway; if it were easy to understand, it's likely someone would have trivially solved it earlier. The Chinese may very well have an army of extremely competent mathematicians, and two or three of them may have cleaned up Perelman's work to be a little more friendly to the mathematics community at large, but I suspect that Perelman will be the name that everyone remembers.

    He's done his bit, people will remember him, and he'll get to work on more mathematics. He doesn't care, so I don't think we should care either. On to the next (apparently) intractable problem!

    1. Re:There's no controversy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny
      if it were easy to understand, it's likely someone would have trivially solved it earlier.

      There's a similar story about Feynman when he got the Nobel Prize for his work in quantum electrodynamics. At a lunchen given in his honor, he was asked by his introducer to explain in simple terms what his work was about. He answered, "Madam, if I were able to explain it in simple terms, they wouldn't have given me the Nobel Prize for it."

    2. Re:There's no controversy by Fnkmaster · · Score: 1

      Next week on Slashdot - Cowboy Neal proves P==NP!!

    3. Re:There's no controversy by rp · · Score: 1

      I think without knowing the work it's hard to tell who deserves more credit, the person with the basic ideas or the person who takes the trouble to actually check out all the details. The history of mathematics is full of proofs that turned out to fail, stumbling over what looked like a minor detail. Sometimes the problem is only spotted after many years. So it's like any complicated piece of machinery: attention to detail can be crucial.

    4. Re:There's no controversy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "He doesn't care"?

      Both Morgan and Hamilton talked about the controversy. And it is clear that the controversy was caused by perelman's strange behavior. If he didn't care, then he would have followed the rules by submitting his manuscripts for publication.
      Remember that before he worked on this topic, he submitted his manuscripts.

  27. That is understandable. by jd · · Score: 4, Insightful
    The situation here, though, is more complex I believe. Shing-Tung Yau seems to have deliberately turned mathematics from a relatively peaceful subject into a pieceful one, and Perelman seems utterly uninterested in having his emotions mauled for the sole purpose of gratifying a glory-seeker.

    I would consider Yau's attitude, if the New Yorker piece is accurate, to be academic fraud, plagarism and the wilfull falsifying of results - any of which are severe enough in academia to warrant the nullification of previous awards, even if these took place afterwards. There have, in fact, been cases where doctorates have been revoked by the awarding University in England as a result of later scholarly abuses. They are certainly sufficiently serious that any professional mathematical society to which Yau belongs should investigate matters for possible disciplinary action should they be true.

    (Sure, you can't do much. The military can court-martial, the Government can haul you off to Gitmo, but the mathematician's union is a little more limited. They could probably ban him from conferences they specifically held, and they could probably lean on journals to be more careful in refereeing his work, but that's about it. Well, actually, given his ego, they could probably take out an ad in a major Chinese newspaper, satirizing him. That could probably do him more damage than any official action.)

    Personally, I think the Fields medal should have been awarded to Perelman specifically BECAUSE he refused it. They can't make him accept it - but that's what Swiss bank safety deposit boxes are for. On the other hand, they need to make it clear - to him and to everyone else - that mathematics is about truth, and truth has nothing to do with who accepts what. If a proof is correct, then it is correct and that is the end of the matter. Neither politics nor personalities have any say in it.

    Furthermore, yes, it does turn him somewhat into a figurehead. And which would YOU prefer to be the role-model for all future mathematicians - the egomaniac or the gentleman? I'd argue that the sciences (and I include maths as a science) need to emphasise honesty, integrity and quality. Most here are computer programmers, or at least familiar with programming, so it would perhaps make sense to liken this to code. Would you rather a program work right (even if it's hard to understand), or be broken and/or stolen (even if it's made easy)? (I'll let you pick which OS' I am referring to, and which one I believe to be inherently superior.)

    Perelman's proofs might be "high magic" in the coder's sense of being so hard very few (to none) can understand it, but I fail to see why that should be a problem. If anything, it is proof of the quality of his intellect and instinct. Those who reject that which they cannot understand are superstitious peasents. (Ok, that's a bit of a troll, but it's also true. You cannot learn that which you already understand, so it is only by not understanding that you are capable of learning. Thus, only the intelligent admit ignorance and only the ignorant claim certainty.)

    Yau has claimed that he does not understand the proof. So where does the problem lie - with pto proof or Yau? Well, obviously Yau. If the problem was the proof, then Yau could establish where the error was that resulted in the proof being nonsense. The inability to establish such a proof does not mean that Perelman's work is perfect, only that it is beyond Yau to make any claims about it whatsoever. Were I to write a flawless program in raw assembly, would flaws magically apear if someone who could not read assembly state that it was incomprehensible to them? That would be stupid.

    This entire dispute cuts to the heart of ALL theoretical and practical sciences and SHOULD be examined in depth by all official bodies with any degree of say in the matter. Perelman should NOT be permitted to walk away and play victim. If he is a victim of academic fraud, then academia has a responsib

    --
    It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    1. Re:That is understandable. by otisaardvark · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I would consider Yau's attitude, if the New Yorker piece is accurate, to be academic fraud, plagarism and the wilfull falsifying of results

      Your post is full of hyperbole and flamebait. There is no falsifying of results or fraud here. There is no plagiarism - sources are completely referenced and acknowledged. No-one doubts the immense value of Cao-Zhu's (or Morgan/Tian's) work as a exposition, especially given the sketchy nature of the arXiv preprints - the dispute centres around whether their own (and implicitly, Yau's) valuation of their contribution is justified.


      Yau has claimed that he does not understand the proof. So where does the problem lie - with pto proof or Yau? Well, obviously Yau. If the problem was the proof, then Yau could establish where the error was that resulted in the proof being nonsense. The inability to establish such a proof does not mean that Perelman's work is perfect, only that it is beyond Yau to make any claims about it whatsoever.


      The notion of "correctness" of a proof is not always as clear-cut as you might think, because different things are obvious and taken as granted at different levels. Being able to prove is different to communicating a proof. Yau obviously takes the idea of accessibility of a proof seriously - which is no bad thing.

      Yau is without question amongst the greatest geometers alive. He proved Calabi's conjecture about Ricci-flat metrics on kahler manifolds with zero first Chern class. He proved the positive energy theorem in general relativity. He proved Severi's conjecture (the complex projective version of the Poincare conjecture). He pioneered the use of methods from the analysis of elliptic differential equations in differential geometry. To use a programming analogy, what Yau claims happened would be like Andrew Morton submitting a kernel patch which Alan Cox was not able to understand. In these circumstances there is clearly a problem.

      This is not to say that Yau has not blown the problem up out of all proportion. This does not negate his flaws of ego and wanting "too much credit". This does not excuse his ridiculous political games. This doesn't have anything to do with the fact that Yau probably isn't a very nice person. But you should realise that now the dust is settling nobody disputes the validity of the actual mathematics.

      You can clearly see Yau's dismissive attitude in the slides of his own talk. But the dispute here is human, not scientific. Suggesting that the IMU should revoke Yau's Field's medal makes you sound like an idiot.
    2. Re:That is understandable. by hotdiggitydawg · · Score: 1
      Ahhh Slashdot - home of bad analogies.

      Most here are computer programmers, or at least familiar with programming, so it would perhaps make sense to liken this to code. Would you rather a program work right (even if it's hard to understand), or be broken and/or stolen (even if it's made easy)? (I'll let you pick which OS' I am referring to, and which one I believe to be inherently superior.)


      Both a program and a mathematical proof are a series of logical statements. However, only the CPU need understand the program in order for it to function. A proof cannot be proven either way until at least two people understand it - the second person needs to play the part of the CPU, executing the same instructions to achieve the same result.

      Of course none of that makes Yau any less of an incompetent, thieving twat, etc...
    3. Re:That is understandable. by brockbr · · Score: 1

      Never was a truer post made on Slashdot I have no mod points, but if I did, it'd be ++5 for Truth.

    4. Re:That is understandable. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, the story goes back to long time ago when Yau had conflict with his student Gang Tian. About the Yau-Tian affair, Sylvia Nasar does a good job in collecting the information. Although it is by no means complete, it is factually correct and presents the particular situation clearly.

      It's very obvious to everyone that Shing Tung Yau wants to be the "Einstein" or "Newton" in China. The majority of the Chinese do not understand math of this level. They totally rely on what a famous mathematician like Yau is telling them, because he's one of the leading authorities in Differential Geometry and Geometric Analysis. However, if this authority is dishonest and selfish or have any grudge against anyone at about the same or lower than his rank, then miserable or misfortune will happen upon that particular Yau's rival! Well, I personally do not have any conflict with Yau but I just want to speak up for fairness! As you can tell, Yau always tries to show off in the public and boast himself and his students. Many Chinese mathematician feel, as well as believe that, Yau tried to control everthing in the Chinese Mathematics Community. The first is understandable and is totally a personal matter of Yau. Though it's a good idea to keep the Chinese people informed about modern mathematics progress as well as the power and beauty of math, it's considered a somewhat corruption if the facts are distorted or manipulated to the advantage of certain people or if it is exaggerated to create an unfair situation to others.

      Andrew Wiles' work on Fermat's last theorem made him a well known super star in America and around the world. However, he personally did not claim anything like "American's contribution to this area, INCLUDING MYSELF and my student Richard Taylor is no less than 90%" this kind of boasting. It's his peer mathematicians who give him the credit. Of course, it really depends on the other mathematicians too. If anyone of them is more or less honest, then it would certainly create a situation like the present Poincare Conjecture.

      Nevertheless, Yau is a leading authority in the fields mentioned above. Only few mathematicians can be comparable to Yau in terms of influence, power, and talents. These include, Of course, William Thurston, John Milnor, Richard Hamilton, and maybe Michael Freedman (who is now at Microsoft), (and some people said: Gang Tian too). So it's very hard to get an unbiased and righteous mathematician who is powerful and talented enough to speak up for the truth. Understanding this, Yau can certianly claim anything that's not too unreasonable regarding his and his group's contribution to the Poincare Conjecture. So it's not even a sin in this sense to make some misleading statements to the Chinese media. But after announcing his views to the Chinese media, he then turned around and blamed the Chinese media for mis-quoting him. Well, in most of the Chinese newspaper in print that my teachers collected, it's mostly Q&A type of interview. So it comes to the question of WHO MISLED THE CHINESE PEOPLE? Some people on some online forum blamed the other Chinese mathematician Yang Ye for claiming the credit in terms of numerical value: Hamilton 50%, Perelman 25% while Yau and his group 30$. Maybe it did not originally come out from Yau's mouth, but he in certain popular Chinese newspaper did CLAIM and RESTATE the credit percentage. Quote from Allyn Jackson's article,

      "The coverage began after Yau held a news conference in Beijing on June 3, 2006, in which he announced the work of Cao and Zhu. Yau said that he was misquoted in some of the media accounts and does not endorse what is said there. On June 20, 2006, he presented a public lecture on the subject at the Morningside Center of Mathematics at the Chinese Academy of Sciences in Beijing, the slides of which are available on the center's website at http://www.mcm.ac.cn/Active/yau_new.pdf."

      On certain online forum, people even relentless attacked Gang Tian for basically everythin

  28. Yet by Stalyn · · Score: 2, Informative

    The article may be biased but you can always discern some truth.

    1. Perelman is unconcerned with fame and praise.
    2. Yau is concerned with fame and praise.
    3. Perelman did most the finishing work on the Poincaire conjecture.
    4. Yau and co. released a paper on Perelman's work with only passing mention of Perelman.
    5. Perelman feels scorned and isolated.

    --
    The best education consists in immunizing people against systematic attempts at education. - Paul Feyerabend
  29. Re:I thought it was because Perelman... by gomoX · · Score: 1

    ROFL

    --
    My english is sow-sow. Sowhat?
  30. Not by Yau by wwind123 · · Score: 3, Informative
    50% Hamilton
    25% Perelman
    30% Yau & Co.

    Yau himself never said this. It's another renown Chinese mathematician (named Yang, Le) that was quoted by a Chinese jornalist. I guess journalists all over the world are just the same: they keep misquoting people. Hard to imagine a real mathematician would make this kind of stupid mistake. This quote has actually become a well-known joke on the journalists on Chinese web-forums and blogs.

  31. Why do you hate America so much? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If we Americans don't all do anything and everything we can to be famous, the terrorists win.

    Being on the cover of TV Guide alongside Jennifer Anniston is the most important thing any True American Patriot can aspire to.

    What happens to us in the afterlife if we die without ever being recognised on the street and having our autographs sought by preteen girls?

    I don't know about you, but if I'm not featured in a Paris Hilton homemade sex tape that becomes the number one most-downloaded torrent in history, before I reach retirement age, I'm going to have to renounce my citizenship.

    So think of the children...oh, won't somebody please think of the children?

  32. Funny, but you haven't studdied topology by Bill,+Shooter+of+Bul · · Score: 2, Interesting

    High level math books rarely get updated. My topology book was 16 years old, the differential geometry book 20. There isn't enough volume to justify a new press run, plus they would have to reconsider how much information to include and fix the mistakes. The proffessor I had just had us write in the corrections. Its also why the 20 year old book still costed $125.

    --
    Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
  33. Argumentum Ad Homology! by Sage+Gaspar · · Score: 2, Informative

    I did just crack open Munkres to check, second edition in 2000, and my Intro to Diff Manifolds book had a new edition in 2005. The old standby Do Carmo is still hovering back in the 80s, though, and if Munkres mentions Poincaré it's only in passing (plus, what, two editions in 25 years?). You're right, of course, just a bit bitter about dropping $385 on texts today, hehe, two of which just reprinted so I have mismatched editions.

    1. Re:Argumentum Ad Homology! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dugundji's point-set topology book is about 40 years old now. I don't think it has a new edition.

  34. The article expresses what many of us want to by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    To many of us involved in the field, this article is right on. Yau has done great work and remains a dynamic force in the field. But as he has advanced from his prime years he has focused more and more on administration rather than mathematics, in an attempt to stay relevant (not unheard of in the sciences and maths). The article accurately portrays him as a man who now finds reward in the political machinations of his field rather than the joy of discovery.

    He remains brilliant and is adept at his new focus, which makes him dangerous. The Fields Medal and Harvard platform give him a lot of power to retaliate against people he perceives as enemies to his legacy. And he has a chip on his shoulder...ok he's always had a chip on his shoulder but in the old days he'd satisfy it by the maths, not by this sort of dirty pool.

    I for one would never speak up against him with my name signed to it. I don't blame (or envy) Mike or Dan for the damage control they're faced with now that what they thought were private remarks have been made public. But it doesn't change the accuracy of the story. Off the record there are few in the field who would disagree with saying that Yau and his students are making an unwarranted grab for credit that is not theirs. But confronting Yau on the record is not smart unless you've got a Fields and Ivy professorship yourself (fat chance that for me).

  35. Perelman's logic for rejecting a Fields medal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful
    Perhaps the most insightful part of the article:

    Mikhail Gromov, the Russian geometer, said that he understood Perelman's logic: "To do great work, you have to have a pure mind. You can think only about the mathematics. Everything else is human weakness. Accepting prizes is showing weakness." Others might view Perelman's refusal to accept a Fields as arrogant, Gromov said, but his principles are admirable. "The ideal scientist does science and cares about nothing else," he said. "He wants to live this ideal. Now, I don't think he really lives on this ideal plane. But he wants to."
  36. you IDIOT! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... Napolean Dynamite replies.

  37. The article tells only part of the story. by adeev · · Score: 2, Informative

    The article tells only part of the story. I cannot claim I know the whole story. One has to know what is going on in the Chinese academic community to understand why this happened. Hopefully some chinese academics on the board will help to shed more light on this situation. I happened to work with an alum of Peking University who gave me some insights into the world of Chinese politics. I will try to tell my understanding of the full story. Dr. Yau is a very talented and prolific mathematitian. He made major contributions to several fields of Math and Physics. He educated tens of grad students (many of them are professors at top schools) and won almost every prize in Math. He is probably a better mathematician than Grisha Perelman will ever be. From what i hear from my co-worker Dr.Yau has always wanted to be known as top Chinese mathematician or even scientist, the "king". Here a post from a chinese bbs i found though google. ----- Stage 0: Poincare, the prophet, told people that there exists a tunnel which would go from this side of the mountain to the other side of the mountain. Stage 1: Poincare announced that he found a mistake and that the tunnel he found could not go through the mountain but maintained his belief that there still exists such a tunnel yet to be found. This conjectured tunnel was then named "Tunnel of Poincare". Stage 2: Many pioneers went out trying to find such a tunnel but failed. However, some of them (Stallings, Zeeman, Smale, Freedman) did find similar tunnels in other mountains. Stage 3: Perelman, the monk, told people that he had found Tunnel of Poincare in the mountain that Poincare himself failed, and that he laid out 30 trail marks at various places in the tunnel so that other people could go through by themselves. Stage 4: Cao and Zhu were teamed up as an expedition to explore the feasibility of Perelman's tunnel. They were able to go through indeed and they laid out more than 300 trail marks along the tunnel which eases the pass greatly. Stage 5: Yau, the king, announced that the ultimate discovery of Poincare Tunnel was finally made by Cao and Zhu, and emphasized the importance of the "Perelman Method" (called by Cao-Zhu "Hamilton and Perelman's Ricci flow theory"). Stage 6: Celebration. ------ However, the Chinese academic establishment (my friend referred to them as the Peking University camp) considers him as an outsider. Yau has been trying to attack the opposition be claiming that his grad students are better mathematicians than the "corrupt" academics from the PKU camp. He just needed some major result for a PR stunt. Perelman just happened to come up with his proof in the wrong time. After reading the article one might think that Yau tried to get some credit for proving the conjecture. Yau never actually tried to claim that he proved the conjecture. But he did try to steal some of Perelman's fame for his students to show that under his guidance chinese mathematicians can produce world class results. However, what was meant to be a local PR trick spilt arcoss the borders and ended up in New Yorker. The Yau camp is strong too, by the way. The article was posted a couple of days ago and every blog that linked it has anonymous postings with emails supporting Yau, e.g. see a few posts above.

  38. Re:The article tells only part of the story. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    "He is probably a better mathematician than Grisha Perelman will ever be"

    When I read the aforementioned statement, you lost all credibility. You are discrediting your thesis with such a biased opinion. Yes, Yau is a great mathematician, but so is Perelman.

    Anyhow, most of your post is copy-paste of ramblings from some random BBS. It doesn't seem to have much substance.

  39. Re:The article tells only part of the story. by Pizaz · · Score: 1

    the "motivational" differences he describes for Yau's politicing is interesting, but if it still amounts to taking undo credit for the work it's not justified although perhaps migitgated to some minor degree.

  40. Think about Clay award by demiurg · · Score: 1

    It's funny to read about poeple doing "things just because they love to" in context of Perelman, who barely earns enough to buy a decent suite and a dinner.

    1. Re:Think about Clay award by Ceriel+Nosforit · · Score: 1

      According to the article Perelman made enough money (apparently in his own opinion) while in the States to last him the rest of his life.

      --
      All rites reversed 2010
  41. Well written but... by catdevnull · · Score: 0

    I finished "TFA" and was impressed with the writing. It was full of all kinds of quotes, facts, etc. I was impressed with the quality of the article as opposed to the slop put out by mainstream media (my wife reads the New Yorker but I just browse for the cartoons).

    Then I was reading what someone posted with rebuttals from the egg-heads they interviewed crying foul--evidently, their words were twisted into convenient quotes to support the thesis of the article--which seemed to be that Perelman is a nice guy and Yao is an unethical bastard.

    I was very disappointed but not surprised that journalists do this. Several times, I have been interviewed by newspaper writers for small and large cities. On each occassion, the quotes were grossly inaccurate or fictional altogether.

    I've always suspected that "journalists" usually already have the story written and they're just out to find convenient quotes to prove their theories "correct."

    --

    I might know what I'm talkin' about, but then again, this is Slashdot...
  42. Prizes are for children. by truckaxle · · Score: 1

    Prizes pander to human ego and superficial pride. A couple of quotes from history.

    "Prizes are for children." Charles Ives, quoted upon being awarded, but refusing, the Pulitzer prize.

    Or maybe even more apropos is Albert Einstein's quote:

    "... But to me our equations are far more important, for politics are only a matter of present concern. A mathematical equation stands forever ..."

  43. side note piece of trivia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    Among the books his father gave him was a copy of "Physics for Entertainment," which had been a best-seller in the Soviet Union in the nineteen-thirties.
    ...and it was written by a Perelman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakov_I._Perelman), too. Apparently, they were not related, but nevertheless having an even symbolic connection, such as same family name (or your parent's name AND family name) as admirable people of the past is such a great motivator for the young. Even without them beeing ultimate geek bards like Y.I. was. I cordialy recommend his books to Slashdoters.
  44. Fields medals stop at 40... [ageism] by totierne · · Score: 2, Insightful

    What do old Mathematicians do, they can't all become academics, administrators and/or actuaries...
    What do old computer scientist do, they can't all become academics, managers and/or administrators...

    Youth is wasted on the young.

    I thought an Engineering degree and computer science work would be applied enough and be structured enough to look like a reasonable career choice. It is not I am still looking for something that will suit me better, should I have shot for the moon, done pure maths and ended up a school teacher (not a well respected or well paid position in these parts. My father had the same choice having been best in his school at mathematics, there were few computers in 1960, so he followed in his fathers footsteps and did medicine, maybe my recently born kid can follow his star, shine brightly and live on welfare after his short bright career fades.

  45. Equality by Max_W · · Score: 1

    Perelman is right to refuse the medal. Why he, the mathemetician, who will forever be the part of human history, who solved one of the main problems of science, accept a medal from some king? And go for it in a remote country?

    1. Re:Equality by try_anything · · Score: 1

      Just to have a good time and give others the pleasure of seeing him? There are good reasons to go. He appreciates friends, so he is not entirely devoid of human feeling.

      He is refusing the prize not for lack of good consequences but because there are bad consequences as well. First, he believes that prizes promote an incorrect understanding of how and why mathematics should be done. Second, the prize would elevate his position in the mathematical community and bring responsibilities he does not want to deal with.

  46. The Importance of being Honest by jd · · Score: 1
    Nobody but an idiot would contend that Sir Isaac Newton was not an intellectual giant, a true genius, with astonishing brilliance in physics, mathematics, chemistry and music - a range few modern "geniuses" can even hope to compare with, even as they fail to compare even in a single one of them.


    Nobody but a wilfull participant in intellectual fraud would - today - contend that he discovered the laws of motion (he plagarised them off Descartes) or calculus (Gottfried Leibniz produced the modern version and published before Newton, Archimedes was the original discoverer although it is very unlikely either Newton or Leibniz was aware of the earlier work).


    Nobody but a fool would deny that Newton's pressure to obliterate the wave theory of light set optical science back many centuries, and that his hostility towards others caused serious enough rifts that collaboration between Europe and Britain, or between British scientists, was seriously inhibited for a long time after his death, retarding science in general.


    Does that make Newton any less of a great scientist? No. Does it devalue the Principa? No. So why, if this holds true of Newton can it not hold true of Yau? Why, if we can accept that Newton had serious character flaws that led to intellectual fraud, forgery, deceit and political manipulation for his own ends, can we not accept that an equally brilliant but equally troubled intellect would suffer the same flaws?


    Furthermore, since a genius HAS exceptional intelligence, should we not hold them to a higher standard of conduct, rather than a lesser one? Particularly in modern times, where most such flaws are easily treatable?


    (Incidently, since I am drawing parallels with Newton, does this mean I believe Newton should have his knighthood revoked? Actually, yes. He has no business holding credit where that credit is not due but was acquired through malpractice.)


    As for accessibility - that is of no consequence to the matter at hand, which is a matter of who discovered what. Clarifying is not the same as discovering. Clarifying is a continuous process that starts from the moment of discovery and will never stop. Original discovery only happens once - otherwise it ceases to be original - and the issue at hand is the originality of the discovery, not whether it is readable.


    Sure, "human nature" is inevitable, being humans. However, that begs the question of what is human nature. Most philosophers over time seem to agree that character flaws and delusions are largely optional. (This does not include chemical imbalances, which are optional today only insofar as treatments exist.) Professor Nash, for example, was fortunate. He suffers from schizophrenia but when he was diagnosed, treatments did exist. Not very good ones, sure, but they worked. Einstein was not so fortunate, predating the ability to diagnose - never mind treat - his disorders. Newton (paranoid schizophrenic, possibly bipolar as well) is a mixed bag - his temper tantrums and disorderly conduct are generally forgiven as the consequences of his condition(s), but neither the conditions he had nor any other conditions known to exist can be used to excuse him of the other charges. Paranoia may make you suspicious of others, but it doesn't make you rob them.


    Yau - well, he hasn't the excuse of Einstein or Newton, even as far as such excuses went. If he has a personality disorder, he is electing - entirely of his own free will - not to treat it. Such defects are no longer an excuse, they have become a choice (at least, if you have money) and so cannot be used to justify behaviour. Nobody of Yau's stature can claim ignorance or lack of resources. The alternative - that there is no defect to treat and his actions are concious and deliberate - hardly exonerates him.

    --
    It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
  47. Remind me of Neal Stephenson books... by droopycom · · Score: 1


    This article is great, wether accurate or misleading, biased or not. Reveling (or inventing) the human stories behind great discoveries is really interesting...

  48. Re: don't blame Gruber and Nasar by helveticon · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Yes, I have to agree with pedantic bore's translation:

    "Anderson is (now) afraid of Yau".

    Michael T. Anderson (SUNY at Stony Brook) probably thought that he would not be quoted, that his ideas were going to be presented without a direct link to his name. As I'll explain he seems to have had enough motives to use this opportunity to execute his own vendetta against Shing-Tung Yau (Harvard) by instigating reporters to deviate from main topic of the Poincaré Conjecture and Thurston's Geometrization conjecture to an indictment of Yau, and his work.

    In my opinion there is little doubt that the article by Gruber and Nasar is grossly biased against Shing-Tung Yau, and to a lesser extent to his collaborators, including Richard S. Hamilton (Columbia). However I don't think that it is correct to blame only the reporters for this. I believe in spite of claims that the quotes are inaccurate, out-of-context, ... they are probably correct. It is common for reporters to face such claims and professionals are normally prepared for possible denials. In fact, we might find out that everything said in this case is recorded on tape.

    If we are willing to assume that the quotes are correct, then the question remains: why Nasar and Gruber came up with an article so denigrating of Yau, Hamilton, and/or Chinese mathematics? Most likely they were led into this direction by the people they interviewed.. This does not completely clear them, since they did fail miserably in investigating the possible reasons those interviewed had for badmouthing Shing-Tung Yau and his collaborators.

    I'll present just one single example to make my point. To some in the field it has been known that for many years Mike Anderson had also been behind proving Thurston's Geometrization Conjecture, and hence Poincaré's Conjecture. He wrote several extremely long papers and claimed to have proved the conjecture. People were a little suspicious about Anderson's work mainly because it did not involve any new ideas, and because it was so long and almost repetitive. To honor what appeared to be a tremendous achievement by Michael T. Anderson, Shing-Tung Yau, in a very generous and friendly gesture promised to dedicate at least one issueof the Journal of Differential Geometry [JDG] in its entirety exclusively to Anderson's work. Yau is the Editor-in-Chief of this prestigious publication. In contrast with Perelman's choice, Anderson did not post his articles at arxiv.org, or made them very widely available. After the announcements and celebrations the review process started in secrecy, Anderson was probably afraid somebody might fix his gaps and find and fix errors, forcing him to share the honor. However after a few months problems appeared with Anderson's work. Whether they were serious or not is not for me to say. But Yau reluctantly decided that Anderson's work was not up to the high standards of the JDG, and explicitly told him to look for another place to publish his work. Assuming he could fix it.

    Mike Anderson sincerely believed he had solved the problem of the century. He even had a celebration at the end of his sequence of summer lectures at Stony Brook, with food and champagne. Peter Zograf (Steklov Mathematical Institute, Saint Petersburg), Dennis Parnell Sullivan (CUNY), and other well known mathematicians were present. Some where privately a little skeptic, but they honored Anderson anyway. After having received all this recognition, and in spite of the existence of objections by the referee, it was probably very hard for Anderson to swallow Yau's refusal to allow his paper to appear in the Journal of Differential Geometry, probably the most prestigious publication for geometers. Anderson appealed Yau's decision. He even tried to get other mathematicians to intercede. But Yau did not see any reasons to change his opinion. At that moment Anderson might have felt that Yau was acting "as a king" b

  49. Re: at STONY BROOK anything is possible by antartic · · Score: 1
    Many, if not most, of the postings here are irrelevant to the topic of the New Yorker's article, namely their claim that Yau and company are trying to steal Perelman's glory.

    However I found the comment by helveticon very insightful. Such feuds are not uncommon in the academic environment, however in this case it surprises me even less. I know Stony Brook is a particularly wild place, where anything goes, in particular at the Math Department. After all ...

    • Can you name a math department with a professor collecting salary while serving time in a California penitentiary?
    • Can you name a place where the faculty will insist in putting a convicted sexual criminal in the classroom?
    • Can you name a place where a professor smokes pot in his office, while classes are in session nearby?
    In case you were not able to guess, the answers are
    • STONY BROOK
    • STONY BROOK
    • STONY BROOK
    To avoid missunderstandings I guess I should clarify that it is not professor Anderson. However I don't think I need to write the name of the professors :)
  50. Anderson and Yau almost classmates at UC Berkeley? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://genealogy.math.ndsu.nodak.edu/html/id.phtml ?id=11618&fChrono=1

    According to this genealogy page, both Michael Thomas Anderson and Shing-Tung Yau attended the University of California Berkeley.

    And this is not all, both of them had the SAME supervisor: H. Blaine (Herbert) Lawson, Jr.

    This is amazing!!

  51. Re: at STONY BROOK anything is possible by antartic · · Score: 1
    I just want to clarify that I am not infringing on anybody's privacy by mentioning that a Stony Brook math prof served time in California for a sexual offense. INCARCERATION RECORDS ARE PUBLIC!

    Also, in order not to damage the reputation of other departments, more complete answers to the questions posed above are:

    • STONY BROOK DEPARTMENT OF MATHEMATICS
    • STONY BROOK DEPARTMENT OF MATHEMATICS
    • STONY BROOK DEPARTMENT OF MATHEMATICS
  52. A new dress! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://englishrussia.com/?p=250

    They gave him a new dress...