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New "PRAM" 30 Times Faster Than Flash

hairyfeet writes, "The EETimes describes the new Samsung memory, phase-change RAM, called PRAM. Samsung is dubbing it 'Perfect RAM' because it is thirty times faster than NOR flash, ten times more durable — and cheaper to produce, to boot." 512-Mbit modules should be available sometime in 2008. None of the initial coverage goes much beyond Samsung's press release. At the same time, Samsung also announced a 40-nm, 32-Gbit NAND flash device.

25 of 154 comments (clear)

  1. Advantages by duerra · · Score: 5, Interesting

    It sounds like great marketing and all using the name "PRAM" for "Perfect RAM". However, can anybody tell me what, if any, advantages that this design has over MRAM? I'm all for a replacement of flash, given all of its disadvantages, but I would like to avoid a format war if one format between these two is clearly superior to the other.

    1. Re:Advantages by jimstapleton · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I didn't see it in this, does PRAM not have the read/write cycle limitation of flash? I hope so...

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    2. Re:Advantages by P3NIS_CLEAVER · · Score: 3, Interesting

      it mentioned '10 times more durable'? Maybe this means that it will go bad at a rate 1/10th of regular flash.

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    3. Re:Advantages by networkBoy · · Score: 2, Informative

      Maybe, but thermal durability is not there.
      Phase Change Memory (PCM) is thermally unstable (double edged sword). Durring reflow the temp is high enough to blank the device, so no factory programming. Devices will have to be in-circuit programmed.

      Good side: increminating evidence? just place in toaster or other suitable device and set on high. problem solved.
      -nB

      --
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    4. Re:Advantages by networkBoy · · Score: 2, Informative

      In the case of flash, that speaker was not nearly powerful enough.
      Flash uses a floating gate, and the electron tunneling effect to program (charging the gate). This requires roughly 9-12 volts, so there is an internal charge pump. To disturb those electrons on the floating gate, while not actively programming, would take well over 10K Gauss, likely in the 100K Gauss range. Don't have a powerful enough magnet to prove anything with, but the 5K Gauss one didn't do squat to a part.
      -nB

      --
      whois gawk date unzip strip find touch finger mount join nice man top fsck grep eject more yes exit umount sleep dump
  2. Errata + Info + Opinion by AKAImBatman · · Score: 5, Informative

    1. Someone's getting their MBits and GBits mixed up. Samsung has announced 32-gigabit (4GB) flash chips, not 32 megabit.

    2. NAND has traditionally been shunned in many uses because it can usually only be accessed as a block device, and not a standard ROM device. Which makes it unsuitable for many embedded applications. Thus this chip is probably targetted at the thumb drive market.

    3. This is exciting stuff! According to the article, PRAM is supposed to have processing speeds similar to RAM, and does not require erasure or sectoring. The only downside is that they don't give any hard figures on what "fast processing speed" means. Depending on what that actually means, we could start seeing machines that are able to instantly hibernate like EROS, but without the added step of writing to disk.

    4. The 512 MBit (64MB) device may sound small, but I imagine that more than one chip will be chained together to create a larger storage device. Samsung will probably also work to produce larger chips once they have all the early production issues worked out.

    5. The CIO article is already slow, so I'll add one tidbit they had. According to CIO, Samsung is considering PRAM to be a good fit for replaceing Flash memory in mobile phones. Considering the lower price, this could be a good fit. The only question is, does it use more or less power during read/write cycles?

    1. Re:Errata + Info + Opinion by Manchot · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Also, what exactly does "three-dimensional transistor structure" mean? All major transistor structures are three-dimensional. In fact, I don't know how you could even make a useful device with photolithography that isn't three-dimensional.

    2. Re:Errata + Info + Opinion by AKAImBatman · · Score: 2, Informative
      Also, what exactly does "three-dimensional transistor structure" mean?

      Usually it means that the circuitry is layered or "stacked" in a 3D matrix rather than the traditional "flat" 2D matrix. This means that you can cram more parts per square centimeter because your circuits have depth as well as width and length.
    3. Re:Errata + Info + Opinion by mabhatter654 · · Score: 2, Informative

      no, current chips are 2.5D. basically they're just a series of circut "maps" laid on top of each other. Not much is different from circuit boards except they're a lot smaller. Look at it this way, no matter how many "maps" you pile on top of each other, you'll never have the simplicity of a globe, or a stack of blocks. Some of the new stuff does actual processing in the 3rd dimension.. in other words components and processing are stacked thru the layers, touching directly, which something that most chips still don't do.

    4. Re:Errata + Info + Opinion by kdawson · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Gbit erratum corrected, thanks for spotting.

    5. Re:Errata + Info + Opinion by grammar+fascist · · Score: 3, Funny

      no, current chips are 2.5D. basically they're just a series of circut "maps" laid on top of each other.

      Which of course introduces limitations such as:

      1. You can't put one ledge on top of another, which limits specific types of gameplay

      2. Non-map opjects are sprites, which don't look so great, and dead bodies tend to rotate on the floor when you're not looking (which is a little unsettling)

      On the plus side, you can generate maps using only a single 2D or stacks of 2D blueprints.

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    6. Re:Errata + Info + Opinion by rkanodia · · Score: 2

      1 baud != 1 bps. Baud is the signaling rate in events per second; a signal event can represent more than 1 bit of data. If you have a system that signals 10 times per second, with each signal encoding 4 bits of data, you have a system that is 10 baud, and 40 bps. Using baud in place of data rate is a common misusage. See the wikipedia entry on Baud for more information.

  3. Good by MindStalker · · Score: 5, Funny

    Cause I'm sick of how long it takes to load those damn Flash ads that hang over my browser window.

    1. Re:Good by ElephanTS · · Score: 2, Funny

      Heh heh - good point. And don't forget to reset the PRAM hold down ++P+R and wait for the double bong.

      (personally I'd be happy with one bong but some people are greedy that way)

      --
      spoonerize "magic trackpad"
  4. Ob. Python by TexasDex · · Score: 2, Funny

    I have to push the PRAM-a-lot!

    --
    The Cheese Stands Alone.
  5. A pram that is 30 times faster? by bmo · · Score: 3, Funny

    Since a pram is generally used at walking speed, doesn't anyone think of the baby's safety when it's rolling 30 times faster, i.e., 90 miles/hr or 145kph?

    Think of the children!

    --
    BMO

    1. Re:A pram that is 30 times faster? by vistic · · Score: 2, Funny

      Babies have important meetings to get to.

      The wall street babies get Hummer prams.

  6. Pauly Shore by RudeDude · · Score: 2, Funny

    Your PC got harshed, right, 'cause your
    system heaps at the wrong parameter.
    So l toasted the dated directory,
    tweaked the P-RAM...
    and reglazed your subroutine.
      - Crawl, in "Son In Law" (Pauly Shore)

    --
    RudeDude
    Perl/Linux/PHP hacker
    1. Re:Pauly Shore by Quiet_Desperation · · Score: 4, Funny

      In some parts of the world, quoting Pauly Shore can get you shot.

  7. Re:New tech? We still get stuck by mabhatter654 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It's business... they are selling something that does more for only a little more money. That makes them a tidy profit!!! That's what they develop new chips for is PROFIT. In another year or two, the prices will drop to be lower, or we will have devices so large we couldn't have afforded them at all... i.e. price of a 4GB SD card isn't going down any time soon due to complexity of manufactureing.. but the new chips may make 4GB as affordable as 1GB sooner.

  8. In this case, format war can only help you. by Vellmont · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The format war would take place with manufacturers and memory producers. Consumers will likely never install pram or mram into their computers just like they don't install flash now. The only time you might buy pram would be a USB flash device, and that already has the standard interface of USB. So really there's no reason consumers would ever have to choose one technology pathway or another. Manufacturers would have to choose, but they're much better prepared to switch technologies and avoid having dead-end technology (they really do this all the time when it makes economic sense).

    --
    AccountKiller
  9. Cheaper? by Roadmaster · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Cheaper to produce, my ass. They'll be charging an arm and a leg for this type of memory.

  10. How storage should be stated by splatacaster · · Score: 2, Funny

    Storage should be stated in megaBYTES and gigaBYTES not bits. No one uses bits anymore, we've all upgraded to bytes. Then there was that half standard of nibbles, what the heck was that all about.

  11. 2 years, vaporware red flag alert! by mark-t · · Score: 2

    FTA:

    ...availability beginning sometime in 2008...

    You decide.

  12. Re:New tech? We still get stuck by Znork · · Score: 2, Informative

    CDs and music in general are subject to monopoly rights, and thus have no actual competition. Prices on them will rise to absorb any economic elbow room available, and even worse, the cost structure will adjust to the revenue, essentially negating the entire purpose of a free market economy.

    Memory on the other hand is interchangable with other memory, thus subject to a much more fierce competition, which drives prices down.