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A Master's In CS or a Master's In Game Programming?
Rustcycle asks: "I'm attending the University of Colorado at Colorado Springs, which has just announced that they are offering a Master's Degree in their Games and Media Integration (GMI) program. There is a fair amount of overlap between the GMI curriculum and the CS courses, so I'm considering a switch in degrees. If you were hiring MS grads outside the game industry for visualization work, am I worth more to you with the more specialized program or would you be more interested in me if I had more exposure? Within the gaming industry, how much does a specialized degree compel a company to hire a recent grad?"
As someone who's worked in games and in game related industries, I'll tell you that the 'Games' degrees are largely laughed at by those of us in the industry.
Good fundamentals are what I care about. I can teach you the domain specific knowledge you need to know, but if you don't have the fundamentals you'll never be good enough for me to bother with.
Good luck!
I currently have no clever signature witicism to add here.
Forget a specialist restrictive subset of development, keep your options open for the future.
However, find a group of buddies and sit down as a team and code up your own games.
Have fun.
liqbase
Do not get the games degree. Stick with CS. It's worth something.
Please.
A gaming degree doesn't mean squat to me when I'm looking for people. What is important is what they've done and how they are as a person. Passion is the strongest dye on the planet and it stains everything that someone does. If you don't have a lot to show then you're not passionate about games and you will be left in the dust by the people who are.
That which we call coding, by any other job would smell as sweet.
Man gotta have skillz.. No seriously. ;-) Demonstrate an understanding of principle concepts across different computing niches; that's what makes you an asset to your employer and, should you need other work, yourself.
I'm about to graduate with a BS of Game Design and Development from Full Sail. It's mostly just development, since designing is something hard to teach, but, from my experience, Full Sail, Digipen and Guild Hall are among the best if you're trying to become a game developer. Ignore the people that say people in the industry laugh at gaming schools. Ignore the people that say if you don't go to a gaming school, you can never become a game developer. It really depends on you. Education is a tool, among many, not the one and only thing that will determine whether you'll get the job. So, do your research, and figure it out. Honestly, screw the paper that says you graduated, go with what gives you the best education. That's why I chose Full Sail.
Wheel in the sky keeps on turnin'.
Yup. You definitely don't want to use loud math in a game. It's very distracting.
The fact of life in the video game industry is that once you been in the industry for 10 years and/or over 30 years old, you're no good to the cheap bean counters who run a lot of these game companies. Once you're out of the industry, you're need to get a REAL JOB (TM)! Get a regular CS degree and take any game-related classes you might be interested on the side. The key thing outside of school is always keep learning new stuff, have an exit strategy to get into the next job, manage your career that benefits your situation the best and stay healthy.
Lets see. Video games have been out for a while. Most of the programmers are Comp Sci degree holders. So you can do Game Programming with a CS degree, but can you do Comp Sci with a Game Programming degree?
Most people have multiple careers. Choose wisely.
As someone in the game industry, I care absolutely zero for what degree you have. Seriously. It makes no difference to me if you have a MS in game development or a PhD in agriculture. I simply don't care. If you wanted me to hire you, you'd have to have some proof of your skills - a game you worked on, a significant amount of code you'd done (or art, if you were an artist). Something that can prove you actually know what you're doing, and not simply that you have a piece of paper.
The "game degree" path may push you through making an actual game. Or it might not. I really don't know, and I honestly don't care. Pick your classes based on what you'll learn from them, not what your diploma will say.
This assumes you want to get a job at one of the smaller more personal companies, not a code-monkey job at a behemoth company.
Breaking Into the Industry - A development log about starting a game studio.
If you want a job in the games industry (as a developer), you need the following (forgive the things I've forgotten):
1: Good C++ engineering skills. Have this as part of your portfolio you send with a resume
2: A good understanding of algorithms in general, both single and multithreaded
3: Datastructures
4: Linear Algebra
5: If you want to be a rendering guy (which I kind of am, though more generally I'm a high performance guy), you need calculus.
6: Basic physics
7: Depending on what specifically you want to do, some 'advanced' (ie second year) physics
8: Operating systems. That is, how does the OS work, how does that impact me as a software developer.
Things that can't hurt: Familiarity with some game specific problems, such as rendering, game AI, the slightly different philosophy for some of the advanced topics like networking and distributed systems. Obviously you need to know how to program in Windows, even minimally. If you have C++ skills by the time you graduate you can easily apply those to consoles and probably mobiles.
Can you get all of those with an MSc in either CS or Game development? I suspect yes. With the game development you're probably marginally more prepared for game dev, after all this is MSc level, not BSc. Being at the MSc level means you're focusing your research interests and advanced topics on the details of some game related problems, but you can do that in a regular MSc just as well as in GD (that's what I'm doing/did, which is graphics stuff as an MSc in CS).
So which is better? The GD might give you a tiny edge over an equivalent CS person (after all you've demonstrated your interest), on the other hand, the CS MSc means you can, after working 80 hours a week for 3 months of 'crunch time' decide to screw this and work somewhere else, and be equally valuable. Also your employer knows you at least on paper are more attractive elsehwere, meaning they may be willing to do a little extra to keep you, at worst they treat you the same as every other developer they have.
Personally, I would do the MSc in CS, with a research topic/thesis on a topic that impacts game developers. If they like you, they'll give you a job, if not you still have a normal sounding MSc on paper you can use to work elsewhere. Esspecially if you're a graphics guy like me, diversify: Take medical imaging as well as game related graphics.
That's mostly what I got from a conference held in london ontario a couple of weeks ago (futureplay).
The only other useful tidbit I picked up, was a game dev studio can be picky enough to take the only the top 10% of CS grads out there. The huge desire to go into the game business means they have a large talent pool, and while right now you may feel you measure up, the last thing you want is to get your degree and find out 3 months from now that you don't.
P.S. I met some of the people setting up this programme at the conference, I may even have met you if you were there (I was the tall thin loud one), it looks like a good program though I'd prefer a MSc in CS with a research topic in game development than a MSc in game development, I don't think you're done a disservice with either.
Game programs have been somewhat useful for finding employees, but we don't actually think that the students are learning particularly valuable skills in the programs.
A CS or EE degree will almost certainly serve you better throughout your life than a game/media degree, but if getting into the industry immediately is your overriding concern, a game program will help with contacts and opportunities.
Exceptional merit will eventually be noticed (perhaps not as quickly as you would like, though), and a degree of any sort is not required if you can conclusively demonstrate that you will contribute great value to a company. However, many entry level positions are filled based on people's opinions about potential, and honest assessments from faculty that work with lots of students does carry some weight.
The best advice is "be amazing", but "diligent and experienced" counts for quite a bit.
John Carmack
Gaming Degrees is where most online degrees were 5 or 10 years ago -- they're not taken to seriously in industry and they somewhat limit your options. Looking at the syllabus and the school, it appears to be a new direction for a decent third tier E-school. However, you're going to have a difficult time moving into another industry beyond general tech support -- simply b/c some HR bean counter isn't going to know WTF your degree with mean.
If you decide to leave Gaming and go into other forms of IT, that Degree won't have the same traction as a Comp Sci or Math degree. ITOH, you can get the CS Masters, focus your research or thesis on gaming and still get your dream job.
- Cappa
Please give this serious consideration. Having received a BS in CS and spending a little less than a decade creating software professionally (not game programming). From my experience, I'd rather higher someone with a BS who is intelligent and has several years of good experience than someone who only has an MS. I've unfortunately run into too many of these folks who lack the ability to cope with the real world. It seems like the best use of these advanced degrees are if you want to stay in school and teach.
If you really are determined to get an advanced degree please, please, please get a general CS degree (Software Engineering possibly?). It will serve you much better in the long run than some thing like game programming.
Whatever path you choose, good luck.
Klein bottle for rent - inquire within.
I'd say definitely go for CS, but as a game programmer that has been in the industry for over 14 years I'd say #1 on the list would actually be: Bachelor of Arts: Computer Science More math courses, less "engineering" courses. At least that's how I remember it when I was in school (getting a BA in CS, of course).
Note: I am a game developer, and therefore have at least an informed opinion on this.
If your dead focused on going into games, then getting the GMI degree is probably a better bet. But if you want to keep your options open, go for the CS degree.
The primary difference would be that with the GMI degree, you will end up taking courses that are very important to Game development at the expense of some other skills. (ie: I would guess that the GMI degree will get you courses on Matrix and Vector math, and the particulars of pixel shaders, instead of things like compiler theory and systems programming).
The trade off is that there really aren't a whole lot of jobs out there that require the particular combination of 3d Math and graphics knowledge that game development requires. The graphics and animation stuff will come in handy if you decide to try your hand at making special effects software, but knowing how to transform a point from local space to screen space wont help you get a job doing Linux programming for a telecom company.
On top of that, the games industry is just not as mature an industry as other programming jobs. Things like the ea_spouse incident with EA's overtime practices are one aspect. And the industry as a whole needs to get a much better grip on the project management side of things. Things have been improving, but there is still a long way to go.
Anyway, if you just want to be a programmer, the CS degree is the way to go. But if you want to be a game programmer specifically, go for the GMI degree.
END COMMUNICATION
If you have a Masters in CS and have a keen interest in writing games you should be able to create proficient demos showing your technical and artistic skills for creating games.
If you get a Masters in Game Programming you will have a harder time convincing someone outside the Game industry that your skills are appropriate to their industry.
Assuming you absolutely only intend to go in to Game Programming related jobs then either are probably equally good choices, but if there is any chance at all you'll take a job outside of the game industry then there isn't really a choice.
Any game degree is laughed at by most IT shops. I've always thought of gaming majors as kids who just want to play, whereas people with a CS degree are more serious about their work. Whether or not that's true in all cases is another story, but when an employer is looking at your resume and he sees "Masters in Videogame Devel" he's not going to take you seriously; it doesn't matter how good you are. And remember that if your goal is actually to be a videogame developer I still say go with CS. You can still be a game programmer with a CS degree plus you have a more general degree to fall back on.
Everyone wants to change their bathroom.
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Do not get the Games degree. Stick with CS, or get a Management degree (or both if you can).
And, please, get over this "degrees are for jobs" mentality. It destroys your education. With a good CS degree you may become a researcher someday and win a place in next century's schoolbooks. With a Games degree you will just get hired to work 15 hours per day with unpaid overtime for an incompetent boss who spends his time with call girls, and you will get fired when you get sick from overwork. Learn to lead your life and understand that a Master's degree is for masters, not for slaves (employees). Become a capitalist, found your own startup and focus on becoming a free man.
A games degree wouldn't make me hire you. Work experience wouldn't, either. What matters to me is your ability and willingness to learn, your educational and academic/research background (but it's also ok for me if you managed to learn real science on your own without going to university), your general intelligence, and your leisure activities. If you watch TV in your free time, you aren't gonna being hired by me, but if you read books (I assume you already have a Safari subscription, right?), hack open-source code or write good stuff at Wikipedia, or if you participate in free community wifi networks, then this matters much more to me than work experience (and actually also more than academic background). I want to hire hackers, not employees. I do not want people who like being led, I want to get other self-starters and leaders collaborating with me (with profit sharing of course). I would prefer a hacker with 1 year's verifiable volunteering experience in Apache or FreeBSD kernel to an employee (read: slave) with 10 years of experience in a Dilbertian company (some exceptions allowed for serious innovative companies that pay for their staff's training and perform real R&D). I do not want slaves working for me, and people who destroy their education by getting vocational degrees have a slave mentality (and they are unproductive: Trained slaves aren't motivated and don't get things done). Get over this "work experience" thing: At companies you only learn some random stuff here and there to do your work as your boss wants, at universities you learn the real stuff (often without much focus on practice but it is assumed that you are smart and therefore capable of practising on your own after you learn the theory), and in the free communities (open source, open content, community wifi) you learn how to be a good citizen in addition to polishing your practical skills.
If both degrees are that close in requirements, I'd say get the CS degree and if you can afford it, take the few other courses afterwards to complete the other degree. That way you have 2 Masters degrees on your resume. :-D
DEAD DEAD DEAD DELETE ME
The original article has a link to the "games program" at Colorado State. This is just a proposal within the school, not an established program. In other words, it's a pre-release beta. In fact, it's not really a "games program", it's really just a list of existing courses being repackaged as a "games program"
There are some well-respected games programming degrees but this isn't one of them. Maybe in a few years.
One thing I can say, as the person who first made ragdoll physics work - if you want to work at that level, you need math. Far more math than most CS majors. Not just the ordinary math for graphics, but the math for dynamics, control, and modern AI as well. Nonlinear differential equations. Computational geometry. Linear and nonlinear control theory. Classifier systems. Bayesian statistics.
On the programming side, you need to understand things down to the bit level. You're liable to have to do something awful like make a computational algorithm work on a GPU that's all wrong for the job.
If you're not good at heavy math, you'll be shunted off into maintaining the level editor or similar low-level programming work. For which the hours and pay are both lousy. Too many low-level programmers want to get into the game industry.
It also helps to have some artistic talent. You won't be doing the real artwork, but you need to be able to sketch, just to talk intelligently to the artists.
I'm not in the game industry, but if a resume ever came across my desk with a "game degree" on it, I'd almost reflexively trash it. True or not, the impression is that such "degrees" are offered by profit-motivated, crank 'em out, trade school companies. If I were in the game industry, the profile I'd be looking for is somebody with a CS degree (not necessarily a master's) who has the additional background is applicable to games. (vector algebra? assembly optimization? I don't know--you'll have to do some research to find out what skills are really required for game development, and then select coursework in your MSCS that will prepare you for it). If the candidate didn't have game development experience, I'd be looking for a freeware or OSS game that he'd written. It wouldn't have to be popular, it would just have to demonstrate skill. IMHO, when looking for people to do any type of programming, there is no better indicator of future success than the fact that they are already practicing the art. That seems rather obvious, and yet so many people don't even consider it. They just look at your degree; so get a MSCS. Don't even think about a game degree. Run really fast in the other direction. Did I mention not to get a game degree? OK, good.
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
From my experience and everything I've read, I'd say you must have just gone to a poor school for computer science, Horn. I've never heard of a CS degree out of the college of business (My school offers a "Management Information Systems" out of biz which is what CS dropouts major in) but I would agree its probably a joke.
My school has CS in college of liberal arts & sciences and CprE in engineering, we have a lot of classes in common between the majors and there is really no difference in difficulty between the two, and majors from both programs tend to get high paying jobs right out of college.
The difference here is that CS does theory and advanced topics while CprE does hardware and low-level (assembly, embedded systems, etc). Neither is "better" or "harder" its just a different focus, with about 50-60% classes in common.
Study Law or Accountancy these skills are truely what shape the games industry.
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> java jobs --> 15969
If you want a job in a coffee shop, by all means, learn java.
> ruby jobs --> 297
There aren't that many open positions as jewelers out there.
But if you want to be a programmer, learn programming fundamentals. Don't just learn a language. It will soon be replaced by the next buzz word language sold to the pointy heads anyway.