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Students Put UCLA Taser Video On YouTube
dircha writes "As widely reported, an incident in which Iranian-American student Mostafa Tabatabainejad was tasered up to five times by UCLA police on Friday, has been captured by a fellow student using a video enabled cell phone and published to YouTube. From the Daily Bruin: 'At around 11:30 p.m. Tuesday, Tabatabainejad, a fourth-year Middle Eastern and North African studies and philosophy student, was asked to leave the library for failing to present his BruinCard during a random check. The 23-year-old student was hit with a Taser five times when he did not leave quickly and cooperatively upon being asked to do so.' In a story which has raised concerns of racial profiling, police brutality and the health risks of taser use, the ubiquity of video cell phone technology has given us a first hand record of an incident which might otherwise have been a he-said, she-said affair. While the publishing of the video to YouTube has given the issue compelling popular exposure beyond the immediate campus community."
...if after watching this video, you see what the LAPD(and by extension, the UCLA PD) are willing to do on camera, and in front of dozens of witnesses, what do they do without people watching?
And am I the only one that upon hearing, Police burtality" and "Caught of tape" are completely unsurprised the LAPD are somehow involved?
"Useless organic meatbag" -HK-47
This was pretty sick. If you get hit by a tazer it's pretty impossible to stand up for at least a few minutes. That's the entire point of a tazer. They could have just handcuffed him and carried him out. I hope these "officers" go to jail.
...between him and the police at the very end where it's "time to go" is supposed to prove what, again? Context, people. Context.
I keep hearing people complaining "if he had just listened" or "all he had to do was get up." But seriously, think about it -- should he really have been tased repeatedly or simply arrested?
1. After being shocked repeatedly, could he even have been ABLE to "just" stand up?
2. After being shocked repeatedly, would be have been in a mental state to understand the cops' commands?
3. He was on the floor. An irritating act, but something deserving electrocution?
4. What if someone asks for a warrant, should they also get electrocuted. After all "all he had to do was let them search."
Put simply, this was WRONG. The kid deserves to be arrested, NOT electrocuted. To those of you who say "tasing is non-lethal," well, i dare you to do it to yourself. Post a video on YouTube to prove it.
This is why google bought youtube... they bought it for the power of its media distribution...
Does it go on forever?
Nice to see that the introduction of street corner cameras is being matched by our ability to watch them.
~ a low user id is no indication I have a clue what I'm talking about.
A) You don't need "beyond reasonable doubt" in a civil suit. B) There were a couple dozen witnesses on the scene, most of whom appeared angry enough to testify in court. C) You get clear views of several of the officers' faces. D) The officers' voices can probably be identified.
On a side note, it'll be interesting to see how the officers justify their refusal to give their badge numbers (which was reportedly followed up with a threat to the person who asked). It makes it appear that they knew what they did was an excessive use of force, and were trying to hide their identities. That will look EXTREMELY bad to a judge and/or jury.
Four Officers... one kid come on.. They could have talked this kid into the handcuffs, while he was a jerk he wasnt exactly a threat.
Sorry the police are here to serve and protect, their actions are the actions of thugs who enjoy weilding power. So while I might not be deeply sorry for the kid, I am deeply ashamed of the actions of the law enforcement officials.
Storm
I like to find the most difficult solutions to the simplest of problems.
This might've been taken out of context from the web page, but I actually agree with this since the most difficult solution provides the most opportunity to learn something new for the most simplest problem. Too often too many college students take the easiest way out instead of busting their ass to find alternative solutions. Sometimes that hurts.
When I first watched the video (over a week ago, when the rest of the aggregator sites caught it), listening to the guy I couldn't fathom how it wasn't his fault. The entire video is him asking to be tazed more. No doubt, there was probably no need to repeatedly shock him, but the first one seems pretty merited. The real problem here is that everyone assumes it's a "police brutality" thing, including many onlookers, because they felt/feel justified in making judgments without enough information.
"Stumble before you crawl"
There was 60+ students standing around. If you ever see something like this happening, and you don't help, then you are just as bad as the police were in this case.
It is a cop's job to deal professionally (which includes not using excessive force) with people who are causing trouble. If they can't do it without going apeshit on the guy, they shouldn't be cops.
A civilian who reacted like this to somebody taunting him, arguing with him, whatever, would be headed to prison for aggravated assault. Cops, because of their position of power, should face even harsher penalties for such behavior.
The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
Nonlethals have just become a substitute for good police work.
The number one test of a good officer is how well he (or she) can solve a problem without resorting to the use of force. If he can look someone in the eye, figure out what is going through that person's head, and assert the authority or voice the reasoning necessary to get compliance with a lawful request, he has done his job properly. Resorting to force to compel behavior is already a kind of failure. Of course there are some people out there who are just hell-bent on harming others - that's why the option of force exists - but clearly that's not what Tabatabainejad was about.
And resorting to force to compel behavior when the person in question is not being violent and is causing no harm to anyone, well, that's beyond failure as an officer, that's failure as a human being.
The officers who did this are a far greater threat to safety on the UCLA campus than that student would ever be. I do hope the university administration recognizes this and responds accordingly. If they do not, then we must seriously question the administration's commitment to protecting their students.
"Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." -- GBS
And this surprises you ... why?
I've seen cops and bar bouncers smack around people on various occasions, some of them deserving, some of them probably not, and in each case there were people standing around and watching. I've never seen anyone who wasn't directly connected in some way to the person getting the beating involve themselves unnecessarily.
Most people will happily stand back and watch Bad Things Happening To Other People Who Probably Deserve It Somehow. It's probably humanity's oldest form of entertainment.
To most of the people in that library, the whole thing was just like watching COPS, but in the ultra-ultra high definition sometimes known as Reality(TM).
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
a few points:
a) The student chose to seat himself upon the floor when the officers were trying to escort him out (per his own lawyer's account to an LA Times reporter). Near the beginning of the video you can hear the student asking the officer to take his hand off his shoulder, then the officers asking him please stand up. All before the student starts screaming (which may have been when he was tasered).
b) He was defying a standing policy of requesting proof of ID in the campus library after 11PM. It is undoubtedly in place to prevent late-night attacks, muggings, and rapes. He chose to not leave after being asked for ID multiple times and then asked to leave if he could not show ID. The reasons for this policy are very real, ignoring it could be be dangerous for students in the building late at night. Why protest enforcement of such a policy, on private grounds?
c) From the point where he voluntarily hits the ground, the police are mostly just asking him to get up. This is because they were still ina libarary, with a man who refused to show ID and refused to leave, for a period of time long enough for campus staff to hound him repeatedly before calling campus security, who then called police.
It's hard for me to speculate about whether that was wrong or out of the ordinary, since the one time I got caught in the computer lab without my pass, I just left and came back with it later. But I think he was given plenty of chances and was mostly just spoiling for an argument and bit off more than he could chew.
Much like Kuroshin before it, the sign of the end for Digg is when they start begging slashdot's community to come over for fresher news.
Slashdot is a discussion forum. The power here is not timeliness, it's the audience.
"Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
That matters not, my friend. Police are trained, for good reason, to detain someone with the least force necessary. Anything beyond is police brutality. Part of being a police officer is being able to withstand taunting (and much worse) without losing your composure and being able to follow the official protocols for detaining someone. I could not be a police officer. If I was a police officer and I had to witness some of the things they have to, I would probably punish the suspects outside the system, to put it gently. Police are professionals precisely because we need enforcers who can deal with precisely these situations without brutalizing anyone, even if the suspect wants to be brutalized.
The problem with that video is that we enter midway through the true story, where he is down and been tazered once already. But why are there four cops around? What exactly was he doing that made them ask him to leave in the first place? It would seem that in order to be asked to leave from a library you would have to have done more than be speaking loudly or bring in a sandwitch.
That combined with how he was screaming about the "patriot act" made me more than a little suspicious that the victim went in with the goal of mixing it up with some law enforcement people, angry at The Man to start.
That video raises more questions than it answers, about both sides of the conflict. Next time, if anyone else is in the same situation can't you stand on a chair please!
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
There are two sides to EVERY story.
And on what side of the story is the fact that the officer tasered him while he was handcuffed? Its right before they walk out the door. The camera is shooting over a counter, and they are telling him to stand up. One officer on either side and by the angle of his arms, his hands are cuffed or restrained behind his back. Tasering him in restraints is nothing less than unjustified use of force.
Laws that allow a crowd to intervene, maybe? I dunno about you, but I wouldn't want to go to jail for assaulting an officer. And whether or not you think it would be justified doesn't matter. AFAIK citizens aren't allowed to directly intervene in the affairs of a police officer. That's what the courts are for.
I dunno. Maybe arrest him, bring him to the station, charge him with disorderly conduct, and tell him that if he causes trouble like that again, he's gonna spend a few days in jail? I know, it's a little bit "out there," but I really think this strategy could work.
Formerly GNU/Anonymous Coward. This message has been determined to cause cancer in laboratory animals.
If he did show his ID card and the police still fired the taser, then he has a case against the police. However, in this case, he refused to show a card.
In my opinion, the police acted properly. As a former university student, I do not want strangers or uncooperative weirdos floating around campus.
I read a post above that claimed the student involved loved to make trouble. And what I saw from the video would lead me to believe that is likely true. However it shows just how primitive the police force at the scene was. They were led into "abusing" the student and took it hook line and sinker. You could classify the person as mentally ill by definition he obviously was making bad choices that would only further his situation. Yet the tough pigs thought force would fix the problem. I blame both sides, a disruptive irrational person got the best of the police force. There was no need to injure him; a professional team would have kept him subdued and safe from escalating the situation and waited for time to let him calm down until he could quietly leave the area. Instead they strutted their big balls and made the situation worse. If they don't have training in this then I really do wonder if the next time I'm upset and the cops show up I'll take a few slugs for behaving badly. What makes me blame the police is their unprofessional handling of the situation. They're supposed to be "peace officers" but obviously they chose to turn this into an aggressive situation in which the hammer won. From the moment they arrived, many of them, they had physical superiority, there was no weapon, there was a person that wouldn't stand up. God forbid they seek other options instead of harming the individual to cement their power over them.
For those that don't know, this is very far from unordinary. I've hung with "bad" people and the police act like this all the time. They have the gun, they have the badge, in court they are a credible witness. Go up against them and you WILL LOSE without proof. Even with proof you are unlikely to win unless they kick the shit out of you while you stay absolutely motionless, even then you better hope your arm didn't move more than 2 inches cuz if it did you were attempting to violently assault an officer. I am exxagerating a bit but if you think this is uncharacterstic of police behavior you are ignorant (meaning that you just don't know).
Officers obviously need more training on how to handle a non dangerous situation. This comes up every time Joe Blow Black man with a rake is capped. They need to understand that having a gun, having control, does not mean using it to expedite the situation. If they have to spend 2 hours trying to calm the man down so be it. That's what they are payed to do, to keep everyone safe. Force should only be applied when NECCESSARY, and that is the downfall of this whole situation.
:: Insted its ment to be used to defend yourself from a target that will cause harm to you, thus paralyzing them for your own safty.There were 5 policemen and one student, i really dont think any of those police were in danger.::
Ever try to restrain a person who's resisting with all his might? It takes a lot to wrestle a guy into handcuffs when he's kicking and flailing. Not to mention, it was not '5 policemen and one student'; it was 5 policemen and some unknown number of students forming what could loosely be described as a mob. The police have to pay attention to the bystanders to make sure the sitation doesn't get out of hand. If they're wrestling the person to the ground, they cannot maintain control of the situation around them, and a person whose intent is worse than civil disobidience might steal a sidearm and cause a real problem.
I can understand, in today's tense world, how this young man might have felt that he was being targeted. Heck, maybe he was. The fact is that if you resist the police, you deserve whatever comes to you, becuase the police in the US are easy to get along with.
"Hold up, you must be a white man," you say. That's true, but it's all about respect. If you treat the police with respect, they will treat you with respect, and we have a system where conflicts - even with the police - can be solved peacefully if you can keep your emotions in check. It doesn't matter the disposition of your DNA.
AC: Only on slashdot... could the sentence "My hovercraft is full of eels." be moderated "+4, Insightful
I have max karma. It's just true. I said the same thing back when the fading star was b4 and Kuroshin was trying to be the up and comer. Now Kuroshin is pretty much forgotten and digg wants the good readers. For whatever reason, the most desireable posters (and lets be fair: the least desireable too) stay with slashdot.
"Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
First, we're not catching anything before the video, which firsthand accounts make it seem like the guy should be tasered.
Based on what.
Second, they repeatedly warned him before tasing him each time.
Irrelevant. They had no business tasering a handcuffed suspect for being uncooperative.
Third, according to firsthand accounts and the story, he was provoking the crowd.
Watch the video. He wasn't doing anything more than screaming "here's your Patriot Act, here's your fucking abuse of power."
Sure, it looks like the cops overreacted, but not to the extent that you're saying.
Yes, they did, and they belong in jail for assault.
A civilian using a taser on someone in an argument has nothing to do with a cop using a taser to deal with people resisting arrest
You're right - the cops are held to a much higher standard.
Tazers were developed so that cops wouldn't have to resort to violence
Using a tazer is violence.
Not providing an ID when asked by authority sounds like he didn't provide ANY ID. He just didn't have his campus ID. Why didn't they ask him for a driver's license or some other form of identification? If he was leaving anyway, as the article said he was, why did they need to grab his arm at all?They were following procedure to have him removed without ID. That wasn't what made him so suspicious...see above reply.
The police are not supposed to be the ones inititalizing a physical confrontation. It's different if the criminal does, or shows intent to (having a weapon). Remember, these people are serving YOU (and everyone around you), you're not serving THEM.Wow what rediculous statements. A criminal showing intent to or having a weapon is NOT the only reason for initiating (not initializing) physical confrontation with a possible criminal. You really need to do some research on taser devices and law.
Again and again, the police apologists come out in droves saying "Oh, but you don't know how HARD it is being a cop!" and "The guy was definitely asking for it!" I'm just going to say what I said last time this came up (original post: http://ask.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=192848&cid =15830849) Full text:
The perfect reply to this argument (which comes up every time someone mentions that most cops are assholes) is this: a McDonald's employee has more accountability than a cop does. As a 16 year old burger-flipper, if a customer acts like a complete asshole--even going so far as to yelling and cussing you out--you are NOT allowed to verbally abuse the customer in return in any way, shape or form. At most you can ask him/her to leave the building, that's it.
Years ago, I worked at McDonald's for four months and a very good friend of mine was punched in the face. Through a plate glass window. A woman tried to order at the pickup window, was told she needed to drive around again, so she punched through the drive-through window, hitting my friend in the face. If she (my friend) had hit her back, there's not a doubt in my mind that she would have lost her job. Instead, she walked away calmly and called her supervisor and the police.
Now, I'm not implying that the police shouldn't use force when necessary. I'm also not denying that they're human too, that it's a nasty, dirty job and I'm sure it's really rough on them. But you know what? Working at McDonald's is in many was rougher (if you doubt this, I could tell you some more horror stories... absolutely the worst 4 months of my life, period.), and yet their workers are held to a much higher standard than the police. Why is that? Why do so many of us make allowances for the police to exercise HUGE leaps of personal discretion, to bend the law whenever it suits them? It's a tough job, but they chose it and we shouldn't let them bend the rules (or ignore them) whenever they feel like it. I saw a TON of asshole customers at McDonalds, yet I didn't say a foul word to any of them. I didn't spit in their food either (no one did--they would've been fired on the spot.) I did my job as professionally as I could, regardless of how shitty I was treated.
And I was a fucking fry cook!
Please please please please PLEASE tell me we can hold our police officers up to the same standards as our burger flippers.
I agree with you that the guy was most likely being a jackass, and should have been forcefully removed by the premises. I was just pointing out, as you have, that there are far more civilized ways to go about it.
A lot of people are making the point that, "He was just begging for an ass kicking." Quite possibly true. However, it is not law enforcement's role to provide him one. The only, and I mean _ONLY_ time law enforcement is justified in physically attacking (as opposed to restraining) someone is when they pose a danger to themselves or those around them. Then they are to use the minimum amount of force necessary to subdue and restrain the person. Tasers are not tools of expediency.
Formerly GNU/Anonymous Coward. This message has been determined to cause cancer in laboratory animals.
It sounds like this guy got a highly effective lesson in the fact that Americans are not prone to martyrdom.
In all of these taser threads, I see a lot of people assuming they're not safe, but I have yet to see one single supported claim that they are inherently unsafe. I can imagine if a person has a pacemaker it's unsafe, but at this point I'm not seeing any evidence it's unsafe.
That said, I can't imagine why 5 police officers were unable to move a handcuffed victim safely to a squad car. And then for them to use a disabling device as a means of getting the guy to move is something I'm sure was at least wrong on their part. Maybe not criminal, but definitely poor tool selection at the least.
The video does demonstrate audibly that there were at least a handful of vocal students yelling at the police to stop using the taser after the first one. The impression I got was that it was an unpleasant and somewhat inhumane sight to see.
At this point I just want to hear the police justification for this painful and botched attempt to remove the guy. I can't imagine how it will go well because the guy appears to offer no physical threat or significant deterrant to simply picking him up and hauling him away.
Sorry, but I think the term "Philosophy student" in the summary says it all.
Keep in mind, that "I like to find the most difficult solutions to the simplest of problems" and "he's the kind of guy that loves to make trouble" are not the same thing as being a violent person. In fact, this is exactly the kind of mindset you'd expect from a philosophy major with an interest in the philosophy of non-violent resistance and individual rights.
A real criminal doesn't refuse to show ID and stand his ground with the cops, they would get the hell out of there before it escalates. Making a scene like that is exactly the kind of thing a libertarian with an attitude or a leftie into protest politics does. Remember that guy who went to the Supreme Court over not showing cops his drivers licence? I bet this guy also had his ID in his pocket, he just wanted to make a point about requiring it.
That "he urged others to join his resistance and a crowd began to gather" (from the ABC story) sounds like he was trying to make a political point. That he knew to "fall limp to the floor" also seems to indicate he was at least aware of non-violent protest tactics. His middle eastern ethnicity and Bahai faith probably make him extra-sensitive to issues of profiling and discrimination, too.
That he was being a self-righteous asshole is just another indication that he's not a criminal and is instead an intellectual who was expecting an argument or debate - instead, he got some muscle-bound cop who thought insolence and disobedience had to be met by force.
So congratulations, Campus Cops - you found the least dangerous, most-likely-to-sue-over-civil-rights student in the library and tasered him in front of a crowd with cameras. Great job.
The fact is that if you resist the police, you deserve whatever comes to you, becuase the police in the US are easy to get along with.
"Hold up, you must be a white man," you say. That's true, but it's all about respect. If you treat the police with respect, they will treat you with respect, and we have a system where conflicts - even with the police - can be solved peacefully if you can keep your emotions in check.
Bullshit. I've met cops in the US and Australia (where I live) who were basically jerks. The majority of those I've had interactions with are great people, doing a shit job I wouldn't wish on anyone, but there are arseholes as well.
If you were minding your own business and a few cops made a beeline for you and strated asking for ID although everyone else was being ignored, would you feel hassled? If you asked why you were targeted and were told to shut up, would you be annoyed? If you were asked to leave, would you get vocal? What if it was a regular event?
It's the job of a law enforcement officer to be as polite and restrained as possible while getting their job done. They don't threaten force if it's not required, they don't go for a taser when there are other options, and they deinfitely don't repeatedly shock someone for exhibiting behaviour that's reasonably typical of being shocked.
Wow... Every time someone mentions here something about ID cards, everybody is raising the Holly Privacy Bible. Today, A guy which has done nothing but wanting to keep his privacy is beaten by the police and you say it's a good thing ?
Terrorism is, you know, about, uh, terror I think. It seems its working with you. By saying you are happy that this guy got tasered, you are entering their game. You acknowledge that you are afraid of them. And beside, now they can tell: "See, Americans are not respecting the rights they are promoting".
What sig ?
I used to read Digg quite a lot, but I was a Slashdot reader first. Digg has basically become somewhat "mob rule" - regardless of how well-planned or well-argued a point is, if everyone on Digg doesnt agree is "dugg" into oblivion. Then, in every thread, you also have to guy spouting "Digg me down!", who, of course, has close to 100 "diggs" up.
Diggs threading is also a joke. Threads end up extremely long with people doing followups to followups.. but since it only supports a 'depth' of 1, it's just a giant mess.
So, Mr Digg User, you enjoy Digg while we enjoy Slashdot. I'm suprised you even have time to troll over here, considering how up to date and fast news reaches you guys!
You can't argue with the video and audio evidence in the tazer incident, just as you can't with the Michael Richard's racial rant (both events were captured on cell phones). It is outrageous behavior, and a sad commentary on where we are nowadays in America. It proves there is still a lot of mending and healing that needs to be done. The alternative is very bleak.
Thankfully, web sites like Slashdot allow people to debate these issues and overall that is a great thing for democracy and for reinforcing the American Value that racism in any form will not be tolerated. We need to be one big team regardless of race, color, creed, religion, sexual orientation, whatever.
Phil http://www.indierockcafe.com http://www.webcontentprofessionals.org indierock@indierockcafe.com
Can anyone explain to me what run by the University of California means in relation to a law enforcement agency?
I'm not an US citizen and more than a little bit confused about what I have read/seen, and think if the whole issue is half as bad as I understand it, you guys should better start to worry.
"Hannibal's plans never work right. They just work." Amy/A-Team
The other board all seemed to think the same thing, so why's this groupthink and not that? :P
This is a complicated issue, and anyone coming down fully on one side or the other probably hasn't thought about it long enough. The cops were facing a noncompliant student of decent size. He may or may not have been actively resisting to leave. Some people say there was a disconnect between what he was yelling and what he was doing. He was certainly trying to rile up a crowd of students, most of whom are probably looking for some kind of cause to get behind. Tasing the guy might've seemed like the best way to disable him.
On the other hand, the cops threatened onlookers. Bringing out a taser in front of a mob is a bad idea if you don't absolutely have to. It's hard to imagine what five taser stuns will do that one or two will not. After the second, and even the first, did not have the intended effect, they should've probably switched to another tact.
Personally, I think the officer threatening the student asking for the badge number and the repeated tasings are misconduct, and should be dealt with appropriately. It seems this kid might've been looking to start trouble, but it still doesn't justify the response. I don't think this is a widespread issue of civil liberties, it's cops in a very tense situation that made a couple poor decisions.
The alternative was shooting? Shooting an unarmed, handcuffed person lying on the ground? Are you nuts?
Ive seen a lot of people commenting that the Cops in the video are idiots, and a few saying that the student was an idiot.
I move that all involved parties are atleast a little retarded.
The student was stupid for refusing to leave when asked politely, then complaining and screaming when told by police officers to leave. Then more idiotic yet for not cooperating after being tased, and told he would be tased more - something he obviously knew he wouldn't enjoy. The whole time screaming about how our justice system is working. Yes, my good sir... the police officers are in place to enforce rules set in place by society - rules you certainly knew you were being violated by yourself, even after being told to stop.
The cops are idiots because they continued to tase the student when he obviously was set on not cooperating, after being tased multiple times. theres a point when you have to go old-school and just haul his out kicking and screaming.
But in the end, ive really gotta side with the cops in the situation... Tasers are a nice piece of equipment. they definately made too liberal of use with theirs, but i think calling "police brutality" in the situation is too much. People who intentionally violate laws need to understand that being arrested wont be a pleasant experience if you resist.
My hand touched her hand. Her hand touched her boob. By the transitive property, I got some boob! Algebra is awesome!
You honestly believe that being tasered 5 times is the appropriate reaction for not producing your papers on demand? Once wouldn't me enough? 6 times is too much? I'm hazy on your logic here... 5 times for not producing papers...what's appropriate for looking at an officer oddly? Or saying something politically incorrect?
I could see the officers escorting him out of the library... I could even see them hauling him down to the police station until they could positively identify him... But getting tasered 5 times for not producing ID? And you think this is appropriate?
What this does is create fear of our authority figures. You better do exactly what they say, when they say it, or you'll get tasered repeatedly. You better not do anything questionable because they can taser you if they feel like it. You know what it's called when you use fear as a tool to achieve your goals? Terrorism.
Can the last one out of the free world please turn off the lights?
First, he didn't get beaten, he got tasered. That's quite different. You can't injure someone in normal health with a taser. It's SUPPOSED to be used on people resisting arrest, which is exactly how it was used. It is far safer than manhandling the suspect, or using batons.
Second, the "privacy" argument is bullshit. If he wanted to stay anonymous for whatever reason, he should have used the library during normal public hours. Otherwise, he should comply with whatever rules they had in place. He does not have a constitutional right to be in the university library at night with no ID. This is trespassing, which is a crime.
Third, he was a whiny, obnoxious bitch, who was trying to cause a scene and incite a crowd. THIS is the reason he got tasered -- he repeatedly refused to follow police instructions and resisted arrest by refusing to get the hell out and whining about the Patriot act. If he quietly complied, none of this would have happened. Police are not supposed to have a lot of patience for this kind of thing. If a cop tells you something and you ignore it, expect consequences.
You sir, are a shining example of what police SHOULD be. I hope the vast majority are like you.
I have talked to a few police officers I know about this incident (naturally everyone knows about and is talking about it) and while they agree with you, nobody went as far as saying the officers should be fired. I suspect there is still a little of "we protect our own, no matter what" there. One alarmingly raised the point that the proliferation of camera phones is damaging law enforcement and something needs to be done about that...
Finkployd
May cost me karma points but the truth usually does. If he did the same thing in Iran, getting tasered would be the least of his problems. Just changing for the Muslim religion to Christianity gets you the death penalty. The problem with video is that we don't know what happened before the person started recording. To me it sounds as if the guy was a real Dick. Why did he not leave and get his card and return. If you have a gun and the police tell you to drop it and you don't....well expect bad things to happen. Is it racial profiling....could be. Do you expect a black man to be a Ku Klux Klan member? Is that racial profiling. Could it be that he was just a Dick and that is what got him tasered? That is what my money is on.
If this happened to me I would go on TV and say "I was being a big Dick and it was all my fault". Then again I believe in personal responsibility. If this view costs me karma points then so be it.
Seriously, comparing a fry cook's job to a cop's job is just silly.
You are quite correct. A fry cook has no authority over the general population. He is not given powers and privileges far above the common citizen. A fry cook can lash out and abuse his position and the consequences for society are minimal. A law enforcement officer must be held to a much higher standard.
There should be no second chances for a LEO abusing their power or violating the law. Given the responsibility and power we as a society give them, the consequences of them abusing that position of authority and power are severe.
Police put their lives on the line, and for that they should be paid much more and trained much better than they are today. However, that is no excuse for bad behavior, and it should never be tolerated. Every one of the police involved in this debacle need to lose their jobs immediately, they are clearly not responsible enough to hold the position of authority they were given and are much more of a danger to society than a punk kid to wouldn't stand up when told to.
Finkployd
Do you really think that the obviously absurd expectations and low level of training exhibited by the campus cop(s) involved is an indication of what "police" (as in, "all police") do?
Since we could have heard about this from NY, or FL, or LA, and this particular one just happened to occur on a college campus - Yes, I'd say this does reflect the generally brutish quality of police in general.
Have you suddenly stopped seeing the firing of cops caught doing this sort of thing?
Better question - Have you suddenly started seeing cops fired for shit like this? Departments cover it up as much as possible, the cowards hiding even their names behind their "LEO's Bill of Rights"; When it makes the press, the chiefs talk about investigations and appropriate discipline, then give the offending cops a few weeks of paid vacation.
Rodney King, Humboldt County (Earth First vs Pacific Lumber Co), the present example... And do cops go to prison for grossly abusing their authority? Hell no! Given one cop testifying against two dozen dirty hippies, the courts show just a wee bit of bias there...
how we'll be treating all students that refuse to show ID in an area where you have to show ID.
Trespassing does not negate your basic human rights, nor the responsibility of the police to act humanely and with as little force as the situation requires. Some punk taking a bit longer than they want to pack his books up does not justify tasering.
we were talking about someone having captured video of a person (without ID) who got into a secured part of the campus and assaulted a student.
A college campus doesn't count as a war zone. You don't have a "Green zone" where you only expect to see familiar white faces, and if you want to survive to see tomorrow you must view anyone unfamiliar as carrying a bomb. This didn't happen in Baghdad, it happened on a goddamned American college campus.
Get a sense of scale, here! 9/11 did not change everything, regardless of how those who want an authoritarian government may spin it.
In your imaginary, rhetorical "police state," you wouldn't be having this conversation.
Chinese and Egyptian students keep blogging, regardless of the risk.
But
that
doesn't
happen
here,
right?
No, they did the right thing by simply observing and recording.
Simply put, if they had interjected, the Police would have had a reason and opportunity to turn this into a riot, and flush it all down the memory hole. The guys with cameras? Arrested, and the "evidence" confiscated for the "investigation" of the "riot that evil Iranian Muslim terrorist" caused.
Instead they watched, recorded, and let the police do their bad things all on their own, and the cops will get theirs when the time comes.
Personally, if I was the UCLA students, I'd be carrying a camera everywhere I went from now on. Because if these cops are stupid enough to do this on camera and in front of a crowd, just what do you think they'd do in front of 1 or 2 witnesses in a more questionable situation?
Falling to the ground and going completely limp is a threatening action? You sir, are a cum brained fuckwit.
"sworn police officers acting totally appropriately."
So you think multiple uses of a taser even after the person is handcuffed is appropriate use of force for someone forgetting their student ID? And threatening to taser bistanders who ask for the cop's badge number?
Wow. Just wow. And you wonder why all of us outside the US look at you like you're monsters. BECAUSE YOU ARE!
-- sudo.ca
He wasn't tazered for not showing his papers, he was tazered for not leaving and becoming disruptive.
Laugh while you can, white American.
They come after you next. You can then wonder "What was I doing wrong?"
Examples do not need causation, only opportunity.
"Speaking the Truth in times of universal deceit is a revolutionary act." -- George Orwell
I am guessing you have never been shocked to the point of lossing controll, I don't mean touching 110/220V I mean something closer to the 5000V stun guns use.
It is quite the opposite, you are guranteed to injure someone when you use a stun gun. They will feal the effects for days (I have) every muscle in your body will be sore and you will be tired. not so much that you can't walk, but so much you don't want to.
I would much prefer a good beating than a Taz, just because you can't see the after effects doesn't mean they aren't bad, why do you think that is the most commenly used method of torture?
no doubt this guy was being a pain in the ass, and needed a lesson, that is not the police job. But I can gurantee you, quite the opposite of what you think, once you are tazed/shocked, most people just want to lay still and gather themselves, that is why it is used for the purpose of bringing people down, they don't want to get back up no-one would. Thats why it's extreamly important that people who are going to use these weapons first experience them first hand, so they know you can't use them to try and get someone to move.
So you think multiple uses of a taser even after the person is handcuffed is appropriate use of force for someone forgetting their student ID?
I expected to see police brutality, not a model of LEO restraint and professionalism. If the jackass had left when told, he wouldn't have forced that situation. I was astounded at the restraint the cops showed. In my opinion, once he'd taunted them and refused to walk, they should have hog-tied him and dragged him by the feet face-down out of the building. Three or four marble steps, maybe some textured concrete, and he'd be begging to be allowed to walk. And it wasn't asking for badge numbers that was getting him testy with the jerk poking him in the chest. Any appendage thrust violently at a police officer should come back as a bloody stub. I hope the video can be enhanced enough to prosecute some of that mob.
Just because somebody screams a lot doesn't mean you have to let them have their way. Those students obviously come from backgrounds where screaming got them their way, and to them, refusal to defer to a tantrum is socially unacceptable.
Oh, and near as I can tell, unit3 doesn't speak for most of Canada. All the ones I've met are intelligent, reasonable people with minds of their own. Their government seems an anomaly. It's almost as glaring a contrast as France. As a country, they seem almost entirely worthless, but I've never met a Frenchman I didn't respect. I'm seeing a pattern here. Probably my closest friend is a Sunni muslim Arab. Maybe it's just that the best and brightest from all the world find their way here, which gives me an unrealistically high opinion of mankind in general.
Sigh...
For the sake of this argument, we'll assume your account of how this incident started is accurate -- even though he clearly had his books packed up and was reportedly walking towards the door when the police arrived. We'll also treat the first tazing as appropriate, even though it seems it wasn't necessary.
At this point the student is guilty of criminal trespassing, something that can't be waved away if he were to leave now. He has been ordered off the premises and blatantly refused the order.
No he is not. He is entitled to the court system to decide whether or not he is guilty.
You have an unidentified criminal, trespassing on government property, acting violent in the vicinity of young students, resisting arrest, moving in a violent manner. What would you propose, other than using force?
Despite your use of the word 'violence' twice in this description, you cannot honestly tell me that this student was any threat after being tazed. If he was, put handcuffs on him. These officers were clearly using the tazer as a compliance weapon. You know what? Sometimes police work isn't fun. Sometimes police have to be patient and listen to someone saying mean things about them. Tough shit -- do your job properly. Us taxpayers pay their salaries because they do a service to us. When officers break the law because they don't feel they should have to wait or carry someone out of a library, the punishment needs to be harsh. These cops are lazy at best, cowards at worst. Pussies like these have no place in law enforcement.
Ooh, the irony.
Maybe if they should have broken his kneecaps with their clubs, maybe then he'd wise up and walk away!
If the masses can keep you down, you're not the Ubermensch.
The university's employees mishandled the situation from the start. Had the CSO responded to Mostafa's refusal by calmly announcing that he would check the IDs of everyone in the area:
* The surrounding students would have been mildly irritated
* Mostafa would have probably ended up feeling pretty silly had they unceremoniously presented their IDs, and either presented his own (if he had it) or left quickly (partly because he'd feel the angry vibe from the others who were ID'ed as well due to his complaining). By standing his ground and demanding to see ONLY Mostafa's ID, the CSO did a wonderful job of validating and reinforcing the beliefs of Mostafa and every other student on campus who thinks they're being unfairly picked on.
* Or, alternatively, the CSO could have asked for the IDs of only the students vouching for Mostafa's status as a student.
Either way, the policy's goal would be achieved: giving police an excuse to kick homeless people out of the library who'd otherwise sleep there overnight. Of course, braindamaged antisocial bullies for whom rulebooks are the equivalent of softcore porn will bitch... but they're kind of like diehard fundies whose own words do a better job of making them look like complete tools with stakes up their butts than anyone else's writings possibly could.
Another example of incompetence and stupidity: the first actual police officer to encounter Mostafa apparently proceeded straight to the "grab him and drag him out" strategy, as opposed to looking straight at him (while maintaining a nonthreatening, respectful distance) and calmly informing him in a "look, I really don't want to do this, but..." tone of voice that he WOULD be forcibly removed if he didn't leave voluntarily, and that if he were subject to forcible removal and resisted, he could be tased and/or subject to real, honest-to-god arrest... something that might very well have not occurred to him up to that point.
God knows, if I were pissed and embarrassed about having been singled-out for an ID check (or believed myself to have been), threw in the towel & conceded defeat by heading towards the door, and THEN had a cop grab my arm so he could bully me some more and rub some more salt into the wounds... yeah, I'd have probably reflexively tried pushing him away and had some angry words for him too.
did you watch the video? they *randomly* grabbed the guy as he was leaving the building. they zapped him, then zapped him again when he would not stand up. the point of tasers is that they incapacitate the person for a bit of time. you are not supposed to zap somebody to get their attention. you zap them to knock them down. to then zap them again because they can't hop up and comply is crap. those cops/guards should know that. real police use them to knock somebody out of commission enough that they can cuff them or put them in a car or whatever.
i realize we do not see what precedes the situation, but after they start zapping the guy they can not expect him to just hop up and be docile. they also had a crapload of cops around an unarmed student. they could have just as easily picked him up or something if that was a concern. they obviously were not worried about his safety by zapping him 5 times in that few minute span. there is no reason they could not restrain him some other way if they really felt it was that important.
being a cop/guard on a college campus means you signed up to deal with potentially obnoxious students. it might be rough, but how could you not realize that was going to happen? i can't imagine a situation where some rude student that did not have his ID deserved that kind of battery.
Their presence wasn't logged - the ID was shown at the door to ensure that only students were admitted to the all-hours facility.
So how the fuck did the student get in? He was already down, at a computer, with books. If ID is required to be shown at the door for entry, why would he be caught LEAVING the building to begin with, unless he had already shown his ID and was granted entry?
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
It depends on the level of resistance, which in his case was entirely passive. The appropriate response when dealing with a passively resisting subject is nonviolent.
Tasering someone five times is violent.
This was completely inappropriate use of force, but no one is surprised, since it's in LA.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Boing boing has some background on one of the kids attackers. apparently he was dismissed from the real police force for shooting an unarmed homeless man he was recommended to be dismissed from the UCLA for previously choking a student. http://www.boingboing.net/2006/11/21/ulca_tasercop _has_a_.html
We only got to see part of the situation, because the police unions overwelming oppose all attempts to put cameras in cars, have cameras mounted on guns, or have portable shoulder mounted cameras for evidence gathering in the field (all which already exist as products right now any could be put into use at any time). If it was true that "we only see part of the picture" and we would be much more sympathetic to cops in these situations if we could see the whole picture, why not give cops shoulder mounted cameras? Then the whole picture would be on tape, and there would be no question of what happening.
It is the cops themselves who desperatly don't want people to see the whole picture, which is why they make sure their union fights hand and tooth to make sure cops are not videotaped!
That's a lot of assumptions, and it's not really possible from the video to figure out all the events. But what we do know is that in two cases he is immobile. This is helped by the police yelling at him to get up. There were three cops and not a single one of them tries to physically remove him (which they can legally do) or restrain him (again, legal) in any fashion, but rather just yell at him and use a taser (illegal on the taser part since it was used against police procedure).
You would have to assume that the officers could be highly suspicious of this possible ploy to get them in close so he could bite them since they knew he was perfectly capable of walking.
Police are trained to restrain and move people. Try catching an episode of COPS on television. If this weren't the case, criminals could just lie on the ground and wait for the cops to leave. So your assumption there is dead wrong.
"The officers did act professionaly. the guy was just stubborn."
/.
Taser's are not suppose to be used when a suspect is "stubborn":
"TASER systems use proprietary technology to immediately incapacitate dangerous, combative or high-risk individuals who pose a risk to law enforcement officers, innocent citizens or themselves."
I don't see "use Taser's on stubborn individuals" in there. Would you want to be tasered because a cop believes you're being stubborn? Because remember we're using the cop's definition of stubborn not yours, he might have had a long night and think you're being stubborn because you didn't produce your insurance card quickly enough.
Can you imagine what they would have done to that guy if he wasn't surrounded by a mob of students moments away from rioting? Think 5 tasers would have turned into 20.
I think all cops should have that line in the Taser FAQs memorized and if they break that rule they should be fired, we don't need cops going around tasering stubborn people because god knows that's 90% of
my karma will be here long after I'm gone
Regardless of whether the poster was a real cop or not - I have no idea - he does raise some interesting points. I agree that the student shouldn't have screamed or refused to leave. But once you've tasered someone they aren't going to get up immediately. The exact amount of time varies from a few seconds to 15+ minutes, but there's a real chance that he was unable to obey orders because of the police and so was tasered. Would this still be reasonable if they had handcuffed him and then tasered him for not raising his hands? And using a taser on someone for not standing up is an unreasonable amount of force when he's only surrounded by armed officers, let alone once he's handcuffed.
Could you post proof that UCPD policy is to taser handcuffed suspects? I suspect that it isn't. And the '18 year veteran' has repeated complaints for excessive force against him in the past, and was the officer that shot dead a homeless man - coincidentally managing to escort him out of the room with CCTV beforehand - causing the adoption of tasers. (Source: Dailybruin)
There are lots of degrees of force, not all of them equal. Handcuffing and carrying him out would have been a use of force. So would beating him to death. I don't believe they chose the right level. And they didn't either - why else would they threaten the witnesses?