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An Early Warning System For Earthquakes

Iphtashu Fitz writes "Would 15 seconds be enough warning time to prepare for an earthquake? It certainly wouldn't be long enough to evacuate from where you live, but it may be just long enough to get out of a building or brace yourself in a doorframe or under a solid desk. Italian scientists may have discovered a way to measure the initial shockwave of an earthquake two seconds after it starts, and from it predict the extent of the destructive secondary wave that will follow. It typically takes twenty seconds for the secondary wave to spread 40 miles, so sensors that can transmit warnings at the speed of light may provide just enough warning before a major quake for people to brace themselves. Even more importantly, such a warning could allow for utilities like gas companies to close safety valves, preventing potential fires or explosions in the aftermath of the quake."

35 of 147 comments (clear)

  1. One powerful earthquake? by solafide · · Score: 4, Interesting
    It takes 20 seconds for it to travel 40 miles? How much power has that secondary wave lost in those 40 miles? Wouldn't it take one really powerful earthquake for you to need to take cover 40 miles from the epicenter?

    (I'm not an expert on earthquakes, but 40 miles seems like a long way for the earthquake to travel.)

    1. Re:One powerful earthquake? by Harmonious+Botch · · Score: 3, Informative

      "Wouldn't it take one really powerful earthquake for you to need to take cover 40 miles from the epicenter?"

      Yes.
      Our house is about 20 miles from epicenter of the 1994 Northridge quake, the most costly quake ever recorded ( California housing is expensive ), and it was not damaged at all. I don't recall Oakland or Berkeley suffering much from the SF earthquake in the 90s, and they are less than 40 miles away.

    2. Re:One powerful earthquake? by MaXiMiUS · · Score: 2, Informative

      According to http://home.att.net/~srschmitt/script_earthquake.h tml -- 1a 100km damage zone is common for earthquakes around 6.1-6.9 on the Richter scale, so 40 miles is a reasonable damage zone. I have no idea on the 20 seconds/40 miles measurement however.

      --
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    3. Re:One powerful earthquake? by Beryllium+Sphere(tm) · · Score: 5, Interesting

      1985, Mexico City, buildings collapsed when the center of the earthquake was 400 km away. That one was unusual but it shows what's possible.

      The other thing you can do with 10-20 seconds of warning is apply emergency brakes on the bullet trains, which I believe Japan has arranged to do.

    4. Re:One powerful earthquake? by mla_anderson · · Score: 2, Informative

      The epicenter of the Kashmir earthquake (2005, Pakistan & India, 7.6) was 62 miles (100km) away from Islamabad and yet it knocked an apartment building down.

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    5. Re:One powerful earthquake? by Harmonious+Botch · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "1985, Mexico City, buildings collapsed when the center of the earthquake was 400 km away. That one was unusual but it shows what's possible."

      No, it shows what Mexican building codes are like.

    6. Re:One powerful earthquake? by sfjoe · · Score: 5, Informative


      The collapsed Cyprus freeway was in Oakland. It's believed that earthquake waves travel horizontally through the crust and can also be reflected off of harder layers further down. If the original wave and the reflected wave harmonize they can be extremely destructive even many miles from the epicenter.

      --
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    7. Re:One powerful earthquake? by brian1078 · · Score: 4, Informative

      The epicenter of the 1989 Loma Prieta earthquake was in the Santa Cruz mountains, about 60 miles south of San Francisco and Oakland. Some of the worst damage was in these areas. The "Cypress Structure" of the I-880 freeway collapsed, as did a portion of the Bay Bridge. In the town, another 20 miles north of Oakland, I lived in at the time there was considerable damage to some older structures as well as to personal property.

      I would have been happy to have the 15 seconds notice.

    8. Re:One powerful earthquake? by Bif+Powell · · Score: 2, Interesting

      >>Mexico City, buildings collapsed when the center of the earthquake was 400 km away.

      Cinco de Mayo probably has that kind of blast radius as far as knocking over buildings in Mexico.

    9. Re:One powerful earthquake? by bobbozzo · · Score: 2, Informative

      Mexico City is built on top of an ancient swamp and the soil liquifies during earthquakes.
      Good building codes wouldn't have been enough.

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    10. Re:One powerful earthquake? by drpimp · · Score: 2, Informative

      It really all depends on what types of crust your epicenter and surrounding areas are, along with depth of the epicenter. Crust content surrounding an epicenter can also increase or decrease wave displacement, direction, and force. Giving a maximum distance for initial or secondary waves, can only be estimated based on the recorded seismic history of a given area and the surrounding crust, any estimate are in fact only that. Living in Southern Cali myself, I can tell you, I have felt quakes for 60+ miles, of course they felt like someone walking with lead feet in the house and no damage what so ever, but the fact that it was felt is a good example that they can travel farther.

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    11. Re:One powerful earthquake? by thebdj · · Score: 2, Informative

      Our house is about 20 miles from epicenter of the 1994 Northridge quake

      Then apparently you were lucky.

      BTW, that 1990s quake, was 1989. And damage was severe upwards of 50 miles away, if you check here.
      BTW, its epicenter was closer to Santa Cruz, so it did a lot of damage considering it travelled nearly 50+ miles to reach the bay.

      --
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    12. Re:One powerful earthquake? by davidsyes · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I was lucky that day. I had only minutes before left Grand View (Chinese) Restaurant (they changed names to Fortune after the quake) with a few cartons of food and couldn't decide whether to go straight back to Milpitas or to dart over to Embarcadero and shoot a few pictures.

      By the time I'd decided it wouldn't be good to get the food late to some people I told about the restaurant, when I decided to head on south, I was barely out of Oakland, somewhere south of Cypress on 880 because. Had I gone to SF, I'd have been SOMEwhere on the Cypress. It's possible I could have also been somewhere before the fallen deck section, but that all could have depended on how many people on the Cypress would have been in my way (back then I might have wanted to speed, might have just relaxed and slipped in and cranked up my Depeche Mode cassettes, (but instead I kept the KGO talk on), blah blah blah...) and I am SURE I'd have probably died that day had I not just taken the food straight to my friend.

      I think I was barely north of the Marina shopping outlet when my steering started acting up. I couldn't believe my barely 1 year old car was acting up. Then the radio went out. There wasn't too much traffic in that section, so my eyes fixated partly on the road and partly on the trees. When I saw them swaying, I knew my car was OK, but the radio was hissing. Only a few weeks earlier IIRC, KGO's antenna near the Dumbarton Bridge went out and needed repairs, so I thought they were having problems. I tuned to other stations only to hear noise and mostly silence, but sporadic bits mentioned major earthquake.

      Fortunately, the roads don't open up like they do in hollywierd flicks. Fortunately it wasn't in the thick of commuter traffic, or there might have been collisions all up and down the freeway for dozens of miles if anyone freaked and lost control of the car. I was fortunate that day...

      --
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  2. Safety valves? by EaglemanBSA · · Score: 4, Interesting

    There would still be gas in the main lines, how would shutting a safety valve keep a broken pipe from leaking gas already in it?

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    1. Re:Safety valves? by frosty_tsm · · Score: 3, Informative

      Possibly it would prevent the continued flow of gas to the pipe. Some would still leak, but either the gas would burn out quickly or dissipate before it's ignited.

    2. Re:Safety valves? by TransEurope · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Great idea. Another thing is to automatically
      interrupt the electricity in the buildings to prevent
      fires caused by short-circuits. But what would it cost
      to equip all houses in San Francisco (or any big or medium
      sized city) with such systems? Maybe billions of dollars.

    3. Re:Safety valves? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Dude, you, could, get, by, with, fewer, commas.

    4. Re:Safety valves? by Jeff+DeMaagd · · Score: 2, Informative

      I think this damage mitigation is the basic idea. It's almost impossible to prevent a rupture, but should it rupture, you don't want gas to continually push through it. Gas often dissipates very quickly, but if it has a constant supply and happen to have a spark nearby, then it's asking for trouble that could have been avoided if you had shut-off valves.

  3. Radon by APE992 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    My geology professor has gone over it again and again, Radon could potentially be an early warning system in some cases. Naturally the stuff leaks out of the ground, before an earthquake more of it is supposed to come out due to the shifting of the ground up to the earthquake. This could be months, days, minutes that this is detectable. Someone with a better understanding please correct anything and add to this.

    1. Re:Radon by The_Wilschon · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Gosh, I did a seventh grade research paper ages ago on predicting earthquakes. I did mention radon... However, the conclusion of my paper was that earthquakes really couldn't be reliably predicted, so I suppose that some source I had said that you really couldn't effectively use radon as a good predictor, but I can't remember why exactly.

      Some speculation: Perhaps false positives were an issue. After all, shutting a city down for an earthquake is an expensive proposition (just in lost time if nothing else), and if it turns out that the false positive rate is high, the cost would make it intractable. Also, I think an even bigger issue would be the very fact that it could be "months, days, minutes" before the quake. Radon might predict that a quake was likely soon, but is it going to be in 10 minutes, or is it going to be in two months? You certainly couldn't keep everyone on earthquake shutdown for two months.

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  4. Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    What do earthquakes need to be warned early about?

    1. Re:Huh? by Beryllium+Sphere(tm) · · Score: 2, Funny

      They need to be warned about their faults, of course.

  5. Sigh by geekoid · · Score: 5, Informative

    "... brace yourself in a doorframe ..."

    this is a myth. The only thing this acomplishes is broken fingers.

    It stems from an observation from a red cross worker after a earthquake in mexico.(I think 1950ish.)
    That archtecture of the entrance way was an adobe arch. Arches are very strong, as opposed wooden square door frames.

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    1. Re:Sigh by Beryllium+Sphere(tm) · · Score: 4, Informative

      There's still a door swinging in it. Depending on which way you're facing, you could get your fingers pinched in the hinges and mangled, or slammed into by a closing door and mangled.

      Drop, cover, and hold is what the Red Cross is teaching, after considerable research.

      First-world building are unlikely to collapse but you don't want to be hit by falling chunks of ceiling. Get under something like a table ("drop and cover") that will intercept some debris before it hits you.

      The table will likely start walking across the room as everything moves up and down and sideways. Keep a grip on a leg of the table or whatever and "hold" so that it doesn't walk away from you.

      Doesn't have to be a table, and improvising is good. At the grocery store you could use a shopping cart, for example.

  6. Not enough time by El+Cubano · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Would 15 seconds be enough warning time to prepare for an earthquake?

    Nope. But a few hours to a few days would be lots better.

    1. Re:Not enough time by Pyromage · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Of course more time would be better. However, nearly everything important can be done in 15 seconds. The really critical things. Like getting the generators at the hospital up to keep the ICU running. Closing gas mains. Taking the scapel out of the guys brain during surgery.

      You can't drive home from the grocery store and strap yourself into bed in 15 seconds, but you can do a lot of really really important things in that time.

    2. Re:Not enough time by Sibko · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Would 15 seconds be enough warning time to prepare for an earthquake?
      Yes, it would.

      I worked at a shipping warehouse, and I can tell you that even 5 seconds of warning prior to an earthquake could save the lives of workers. The goods are stacked up 4-5 stories high, and each crate easily weighs half a ton or more. It wouldn't take much shaking to knock the top ones down and crush people.

      Considering the size of the building I worked at, the only real options available would be to either get out of the isle as fucking fast as you could, or to get under the girders supporting the crates. 15 seconds of warning would be plenty of time for me to hop on my pallet-jack and drive to the dock before anything happened. So yeah, even 15 seconds of warning could mean the difference between being alive, and being crushed under a crate of peanutbutter.
  7. 15 seconds by rolyatknarf · · Score: 2, Funny

    is barely enough time to evacuate your bowels - let alone prepare for a large quake.

  8. Doesn't japan have something like this? by Hays · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I thought the high speed trains in Japan would stop in the event of an earthquake (before the earthquake actually hit them), http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinkansen

    "In the event of an earthquake, an earthquake detection system can bring the train to a stop very quickly"

    Anyway, the idea of a broadcast system to warn of an earthquake is pretty obvious, the engineering task of doing it right without false positives is pretty difficult I bet.

  9. UC Berkley has a very similar early warning system by Bananatree3 · · Score: 2, Informative
  10. Its being done now, by budgenator · · Score: 2, Informative

    While the article is quite light on details, much work has been done in this area, by groups such as ElarmS in California, if your interested in the methodology take a look at Allen's paper "Rapid magnitude determination for earthquake early warning (a 7 pg. PDF) which is reasonable understandable by lay persons if you skip through the math, yet still informative for people in the field.

    --
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  11. Loma Prieta deaths from this. by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 2, Interesting

    "... brace yourself in a doorframe ..."

    this is a myth. The only thing this acomplishes is broken fingers.


    A very dangerous myth, too. Most of the deaths in Loma Prieta may have resulted from this myth.

    There were 57 deaths attributed directly to the earthquake, and 42 of them were in the Cypress Street Viaduct collapse.

    At the start of the earthquake, the drivers stopped. Because of the myth, most of them tried to stop under the arches. When the strucutre collapsed, the arches came all the way down to the pavement, pancaking the cars beneath them, while the regions between the arches had enough space that it was possible, in many cases, to survive the collapse itself.

    - - - -

    Of course a lot of the deaths there are attributable, not just to the quake, but also to governmental interference with volunteer rescue attempts.

    Most of those who survived the initial collapse were still trapped in their cars or the structure itself. When the quake hit virtually all of the the nearby citizens dropped what they were doing (along with any inter-group animosity) and immediately began rescue efforts. (A notable part of this was workers at a nearby warehouse improvising an elevator using a dumpster and a forklift.) The pulled quite a few out of the collapsed structure's "sandwitch" in the first half-hour or so (at considerable risk to themselves, especially given the risk of further collapse or rolling debris due to aftershocks). Then the authorities arrived.

    The police kicked them out and cordoned off the area to await the official first responders. They eventually arrived - around sundown. Then they had insufficient light (given the power failure) and mainly waited around further for portable lighting to arrive. It was several hours before rescue attempts, with a smaller force of official rescuers, resumed. (Of course by then the "golden hour" had long since expired and those who had been in shock were now dead or beyond hope.)

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  12. Re:Already sold in Greece by The+MAZZTer · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Ah but which building designs would fare better in a hurricane or tornado? Flooding? We have more than just earthquakes for natural disasters...

  13. Moo by Chacham · · Score: 2, Funny

    This whole idea sounds pretty shaky.

  14. broken fingers by Harmonious+Botch · · Score: 2, Funny

    ...or you could and up being a crippled stud.