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Complete Mozart Works Now Free

An anonymous reader writes "Mozart's year-long 250th birthday party is ending on a high note with the musical scores of his complete works available for the first time free on the Internet. Although most classical music is obviously too old to be under copyright, the rights to specific editions of pieces are owned by the publishers. Now, the International Mozart Foundation has acquired the right to publish the prestigious New Mozart Edition of every Mozart work on the internet. The response has been so overwhelming that the Foundation has been forced to increase their server capacity."

304 comments

  1. Mozardot by Pig+Hogger · · Score: 4, Funny

    Are you sure it isn't the Slashdot effect???

    1. Re:Mozardot by Werkhaus · · Score: 2, Informative

      Possibly. Apparently, (from the website) "We are overvelmed by the resonance of this website.".

    2. Re:Mozardot by Sj0 · · Score: 3, Funny

      What they really need is an LC notch filter to isolate their fundamental frequency.

      --
      It's been a long time.
  2. A+ by grumpygrodyguy · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Damn straight, information wants to be free!

    --
    The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky
    1. Re:A+ by It's+Pat · · Score: 0

      Yes it does.

    2. Re:A+ by s20451 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      But producers of information still need to get paid.

      --
      Toronto-area transit rider? Rate your ride.
    3. Re:A+ by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      But producers of information still need to get paid.
      Damn straight. Just wait until I begin enforcing my patent on apparatus for electronic display medium for musical notes and method for transmission thereof.
    4. Re:A+ by jZnat · · Score: 1

      Let the free market sort that out. If the producers deserve to get paid, they will get paid.

      --
      'Yes, firefox is indeed greater than women. Can women block pops up for you? No. Can Firefox show you naked women? Yes.'
    5. Re:A+ by nacturation · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Damn straight, information wants to be free! Didn't you hear? Information hates to be anthropomorphized.

      But seriously, the proper phrase is that you want someone else's information to be free. Information doesn't want anything.
      --
      Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
    6. Re:A+ by sasami · · Score: 1

      Let the free market sort that out. If the producers deserve to get paid, they will get paid.

      Firefly.

      --
      Dum de dum.

      --
      Freedom is not the license to do what we like, it is the power to do what we ought.
    7. Re:A+ by aussie_a · · Score: 1

      But they don't need to be paid 150 years after they die (and Mozart died well and truly before he reached a 100)!

    8. Re:A+ by omeomi · · Score: 1

      But they don't need to be paid 150 years after they die (and Mozart died well and truly before he reached a 100)!

      The summary *did* mention that while the works themselves have been in the public domain for quite some time, published copies of them are still under copyright by whomever published them. This site just makes freely available a printable version of an already free collection of sheet music. If I sat down with Mozart's manuscripts, and produced my own printed version, I would still own the copyright of that, but its value would obviously be reduced now that anybody can get a different version for free online...

    9. Re:A+ by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Meh. It's like saying that water seeks its own level. It's just a way of saying that it runs downhill. Information wants to be free in that it spreads and spreads, but is very difficult to either keep from spreading, or to pull back, once it's gotten out. It has nothing to do with price, particularly, other than that it tends to spread more when it's free.

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    10. Re:A+ by Fordiman · · Score: 1

      The producer of this information has been dead for centuries.

      --
      110100 1101000 1101000 1100110 0 1101111 1101000 1100011 1
    11. Re:A+ by fuzz6y · · Score: 2, Insightful
      But producers of information still need to get paid.
      Not Mozart.
      --
      If you're going to be elitist, it would help to be elite.
    12. Re:A+ by Vintermann · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No, not Mozart.

      --
      xkcd is not in the sudoers file. This incident will be reported.
    13. Re:A+ by buswolley · · Score: 1

      Sure, just give us your credit card information, and we'll set it free for you.

      --

      A Good Troll is better than a Bad Human.

    14. Re:A+ by montyzooooma · · Score: 4, Funny

      You're missing the point! The scores have been set free in a victory against the RIAA! Now all I have to do is organise my own orchestra and I'm really going to be sticking it to the man...

    15. Re:A+ by TheVelvetFlamebait · · Score: 1

      But not everyone can get what they want.

      --
      You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
    16. Re:A+ by Kjella · · Score: 5, Interesting

      But seriously, the proper phrase is that you want someone else's information to be free. Information doesn't want anything.

      Look, if some dude feeds 5000 people with 5 loaves of bread and 2 fish, it's a miracle. If Linus Thorvalds provides Linux for all of mankind from a single master copy, big whoop. Fundamentally if I eat a fish, the fish is consumed. If I watch a movie, it is not.

      In classic economics you have the term "natural price", which means the zero-profit price ignoring R&D. For the abstract concept information. ignoring media costs - for example the difference between a blank and recorded CD - the natural cost is zero. That is the market price with perfect competition, everything else is caused by imperfections or government regulations in the market. In that sense, it's perfectly reasonable to say that information "wants to" be free.

      Of course a whole other story is that there'd be no commercial market, because you have a non-zero investment and zero profits. That is why even the founding fathers, who hardly were mouthpieces for copyright holders recognized copyright to "promote the science and arts". In addition, there's many other factors which means this isn't a perfect market. However, that only changes the market price, not the natural price. The more of these you remove, the more it will approach its natural price, whether you anthropomorphize it or not.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    17. Re:A+ by zeromorph · · Score: 1

      Free as in beer?

      No, free as in jazz!

      --
      "Hannibal's plans never work right. They just work." Amy/A-Team
    18. Re:A+ by namekuseijin · · Score: 1

      "published copies of them are still under copyright by whomever published them"

      fuck them! Mozart's music is a universal cultural hallmark of mankind.

      And to think this copyright insanity will only get worse: some 100 years from now some stupidass ageless entity -- say, Disney -- will still retain rights over work produced by people who worked for them.

      --
      I don't feel like it...
    19. Re:A+ by Digital+Vomit · · Score: 1
      But seriously, the proper phrase is that you want someone else's information to be free. Information doesn't want anything.

      Actually, the proper phrase is that the OP wants information to be free. By it's very nature, information can't "belong" to someone.

      --
      Modern copyright is theft of culture from everyone and it retards the progress of the useful arts and sciences.
    20. Re:A+ by zotz · · Score: 1

      "But producers of information still need to get paid."

      And your point is?

      all the best,

      drew

      --
      FreeMusicPush If you want to see more Free Music made, listen to Free
    21. Re:A+ by salimma · · Score: 2, Funny
      Damn straight, information wants to be free!

      Didn't you hear? Information hates to be anthropomorphized.


      Information deserves to be free =)
      --
      Michel
      Fedora Project Contribut
    22. Re:A+ by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      What? Are you planning on finding the mass grave that Mozart was buried in and throwing coinage into it?

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    23. Re:A+ by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mozart wasn't very good at managing his money, but he was paid for his work.

    24. Re:A+ by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      >>Let the free market sort that out. If the producers deserve to get paid, they will get paid.
      >>
      >Firefly.

      A validation of the market if ever there was one.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    25. Re:A+ by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      Information deserves to be PRESERVED.

      "ownership" interferes with this.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    26. Re:A+ by MBGMorden · · Score: 2, Funny

      I'm sure my credit card information does want to be free. Me being the cruel and unjust tyrant that I am though, I shall keep it locked in the dungeon of my wallet. Damn thing ought to have some respect after all I've done for it anyways.

      --
      "People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
    27. Re:A+ by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd argue that any accurate edition of Mozart printed in the U.S. would be public domain, and that any copyright notices that you find attached are spurious. I'm sorry, exactly WHAT would be the creative expression you'd be adding to your hypothetical printed edition?

      The problem is that in the U.S. at least there is no real penalty for attaching a copyright notice to public domain material so music publishers do it all the time -- presumably with the intent to cheat their customers in to buying copies of something they could legally photocopy.

    28. Re:A+ by Dr.+Blue · · Score: 3, Funny
      If Linus Thorvalds provides Linux for all of mankind...

      Great... a one character typo, and now I've got a mental picture of Linus in the middle of a battlefield wielding a big-ass hammer. Thanks a lot.

    29. Re:A+ by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It has nothing to do with price, particularly, other than that it tends to spread more when it's free.

      In my little corner of the world, it's just the opposite -- my BitTorrent bandwidth goes exclusively to spreading non-free content. That's because non-free content is -- by definition -- exactly the kind of content that needs to be freed.

    30. Re:A+ by timjdot · · Score: 1

      Good post. Guess that's why Windows CE sells for $4 per copy. I noticed Softie has droped their OS price to around $60 while maintaining their Office price at around $300. STill waiting for Oracle to start selling at a reasonable price given equivalence with free software.
      Interesting economics.
      Tim
      BTW, the mozart music on the posted site is neither free as in GPL nor free as in BSD. Maybe someone ought to make a scroe-synth site and make the music really free (though only as good as the synth.)
      http://www.serviza.com/ Serviza Monster Linux Computers and Training Bundles.

      --
      Expect Freedom.
    31. Re:A+ by teh_chrizzle · · Score: 2, Funny

      especially motzart... he hasn't eaten in like a hundred years thanks to you criminals and your file sharing.

      --
      sarcasm:
      -noun
      1. harsh or bitter derision or irony.
    32. Re:A+ by pile0nades · · Score: 1

      'Yes, firefox is indeed greater than women. Can women block pops up for you? No. Can Firefox show you naked women? Yes.'

      Women don't show you popups in the first place. And Firefox can show you pictures of naked women, but a woman can show you a naked woman in person, which is much much better than a picture.

    33. Re:A+ by Half-pint+HAL · · Score: 1

      In classic economics you have the term "natural price", which means the zero-profit price ignoring R&D. For the abstract concept information. ignoring media costs - for example the difference between a blank and recorded CD - the natural cost is zero.

      The term "natural price" is entirely misleading. The truly natural cost of anything includes any setup costs, and that includes the cost of invention/innovation.

      Just because some calls something "natural" doesn't mean it is.

      As you yourself tacitly admit in your last paragraph, classical economics is critically flawed by it's inability to account for invention and creativity.

      HAL.

      --
      Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
    34. Re:A+ by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      huh?

    35. Re:A+ by Eideewt · · Score: 1

      Uh oh. Are "Free as in _________" jokes the next big thing on Slashdot? That would be free as in radicals if it were.

    36. Re:A+ by Dabido · · Score: 1

      Mozart wasn't buried in a Mass grave (as per the movie Amadeus). He was however buried in an UNMARKED grave. SO yes, it is almost impossible to find his grave. [And any spare coinage can be thrown my way, I need it!] :-)

      --
      Sure enough, the cow costume was hanging up next to the superhero outfit and sailors uniform. (S,Spud)
    37. Re:A+ by Dabido · · Score: 1

      Free Jokes? Where? :-)

      --
      Sure enough, the cow costume was hanging up next to the superhero outfit and sailors uniform. (S,Spud)
    38. Re:A+ by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1
      Look, if some dude feeds 5000 people with 5 loaves of bread and 2 fish, it's a miracle.
      I wonder how many copyrights and/or patents he'd violated by pulling that trick today?..
    39. Re:A+ by HishamMuhammad · · Score: 1

      Need or want to get paid?

      I wonder how much Plato was paid for writing The Republic.

  3. Slashdot effect.. by Beuno · · Score: 4, Funny
    The response has been so overwhelming that the Foundation has been forced to increase their server capacity.


    And now they're going to have to increase them again...
    1. Re:Slashdot effect.. by markana · · Score: 1

      They shouldn't have tried hosting it on "eine kleine webserver...."

  4. Nope..It's lots of fans! by TrisexualPuppy · · Score: 5, Informative
    The response has been so overwhelming that the Foundation has been forced to increase their server capacity.
    One of my cousins works with the NMA. He's currently out in Germany. It was amazing how QUICKLY news got out, and their servers were bogged down like crazy (and still are). They have had to temporarily get several new colos up. In the first couple of hours alone, there was a transfer of something like fifteen terabytes. That's WELL more than the usual monthly average!
    1. Re:Nope..It's lots of fans! by Ironsides · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Please tell him that if there was ever a use for BitTorrent, this would be it.

      --
      Fly me to the moon Let me sing among those stars Let me see what spring is like On jupiter and mars
    2. Re:Nope..It's lots of fans! by TrisexualPuppy · · Score: 2, Informative
      Please tell him that if there was ever a use for BitTorrent, this would be it.
      Considerations are already in place. I don't know what the deal was, but they were having some "legal" issue with running a tracker. Stay tuned to the TSP for more updates!!
    3. Re:Nope..It's lots of fans! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's been a (pirated) torrent out for a while of his complete works. I'm not sure what the legality of it would be now.

    4. Re:Nope..It's lots of fans! by Ironsides · · Score: 1

      That is a recording of the music. Those MP3s (or whatever they are) are still 'copyright infringement'. This only covers the sheet music/written score. It's like the difference between a books actual text and a book on tape/cd.

      --
      Fly me to the moon Let me sing among those stars Let me see what spring is like On jupiter and mars
    5. Re:Nope..It's lots of fans! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Because of course, no one would ever put non-music files on bittorrent.
       
      It'd make the interblag divide by zero.
       
      He meant putting torrents of the music (printed) files on the site. Dimwit. What... the... fuck... are you talking about? Someone said "duh, there is a torrent" and linked to a torrent of a collection of ripped MP3s from the Philips library. The post you're responding to said "hey, this isn't about MP3s, it's the musical composition itself" and you're calling him a dimwit for basically agreeing with you. Fucking stupid people like you should be taken out back and shot repeatedly in the asshole.
    6. Re:Nope..It's lots of fans! by Kingsly · · Score: 1

      From their website...

      Last Updated ( Sunday, 19 November 2006 )

    7. Re:Nope..It's lots of fans! by idlake · · Score: 2, Informative

      The stuff is "free-as-in-beer". You can't download the complete archive, and you can't use it for anything other than "personal" or "educational" use. You probably can't even perform it. So, distribution through BT is not going to happen.

    8. Re:Nope..It's lots of fans! by HuguesT · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'm curious to learn how a performance of this material could be prevented.

    9. Re:Nope..It's lots of fans! by AGMW · · Score: 2, Insightful
      I'm curious to learn how a performance of this material could be prevented.

      ... and I'm curious to know how that has any relevance to the legality of performing it? Indeed, coming at this from the other end, if it were possible to prevent "things" from happening there'd be no need to make it illegal in the first place!

      --
      Eclectic beats from Leeds, UK
      handmadehands.co.uk
    10. Re:Nope..It's lots of fans! by dheera · · Score: 1

      you can't prevent it. any good performer can memorize what they are performing.

      and if asked how they memorized it

      "oh, i can't remember, i learned it when i was a kid"
      "i borrowed it from a music library"
      "i learned it by ear"

      all of which are perfectly plausible.

    11. Re:Nope..It's lots of fans! by tverbeek · · Score: 4, Funny

      Meanwhile, the webmaster for Salieri250thBirthday.org is still waiting for his hit-counter to go into triple digits, and plotting a DOS attack on Mozarteum.at.

      --
      http://alternatives.rzero.com/
    12. Re:Nope..It's lots of fans! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      GP meant in a legal sense, dipwad. What LAW would be used as a stick to prevent performance?

    13. Re:Nope..It's lots of fans! by orgelspieler · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Well, in the US, Copyright law covers public performace of a work under copyright. You may not perform a work publicly without the permission of the copyright owner. But the "work" in question would be a musical composition by Mozart that has long since fallen into public domain, not the specific editions offered here. The only reason these publishers get to claim copyright on their publications of PD compositions are:

      1) actual "editions," that is, changes to the music based on new manuscripts, musicological study, correcting obvious errors, or an editor's penchant for adding slurs and dynamics (ugh).

      2) the typesetting of the work is a creative process that involves a certain amount of talent, and is not just a reproduction of the PD composition. So the actual look and feel of the notes and staves and page breaks is copyrightable.

      3) arrangements/settings/orchestrations. That is beyond the scope of this discussion.

      In case 1) a performance might be considered a "derivative work," but I can find no case law to support that. At any rate, it would be pushing the definition of "derivative work" since "public performance" is already covered separately. Besides, if the piece were memorized and performed from memory, how could you prove what edition was used to memorize from.

      In case 2) I see no way that the copyright holder could demand that the work not be performed publicly from their typesetting. That is simply absurd, and I have never heard of a publisher making such stipulations (and I have performed in hundreds of concerts).

      Anyway, I have been working for a while now to get the complete Mozart string quartets in Lilypond format and share them on Musipedia and other places, but I guess there's no point in continuing that work now, is there? :) oh well.

    14. Re:Nope..It's lots of fans! by Dabido · · Score: 1

      Depends. If a musican/performer etc decides to perform a piece, [any piece of music, not just a Mozart one], they normally have to check with their Performing Rights Association. If the piece is NOT in copyright, then they're free to perform it, otherwise if copyrighted they just get a license to perform the piece. [And that will also include paying the 1 cent or so of the royalties towards the songwriter/s.]

      If they perform a copyrighted piece without permission, and they get caught, then they get fined. A good example of this is when Bono from U2 got fined for singing a bit from 'Send in the Clowns' during the 'Under a Blood Red Sky' concert. [Plus having to pay the royalties to the copyright holder of the song] If a performer keeps performing a piece without getting permission and not paying the fines, then they'll get a nice law suit against them and will either end up with a heftier fine or time in prison. I think the time in prison might result in the 'not performing' the piece for a while. If they continue to perform the piece without permission after that, then, well, what can we say about that person.

      If you're just talking about someone performing a piece in their own home privately, then no one really cares.

      --
      Sure enough, the cow costume was hanging up next to the superhero outfit and sailors uniform. (S,Spud)
    15. Re:Nope..It's lots of fans! by HuguesT · · Score: 1
      Hello,


      Well, in the US, Copyright law covers public performace of a work under copyright.


      As worded, this is so general as to be untrue. Works under copyright are of course legally performed everyday. What is missing from your sentence is of course without permission from the copyright holder.

      Now it happens that permission does not always need to be obtained explicitely. There are all the fair use exceptions, you can also record your own version of any copyrighted song and put it on a CD for sale without asking anyone. This is called a cover song, and the law gives you explicit permission to do that. Of course you need to perhaps eventually pay royalties but this proportionnal to the number of CDs that you sell. I'm sure there are plenty of other exceptions.

      Also, in the case of the works of Mozart, this is irrelevant. The copyright holder of the work has been dead for way more than the prescribed 90 years and has no estate. The copyright holder of the Mozart *editions* can only prevent people from distributing a copy of their transcriptions, but cannot prevent a performance of the actual music, as they do not hold a copyright on it. There is simply no practical way this can be prevented.
    16. Re:Nope..It's lots of fans! by orgelspieler · · Score: 1

      I just meant covered in the general sense. That the terms of the copyright law mention public performance. Sorry for the confusion. There are actually a labyrinthine set of rules covering public performance, like how many speakers can be in your business establishment if you're playing a CD, and how big the screen at your sports bar can be.
      My point is the same as yours. Mozart is "thoroughly dead," so we can perform his music to our hearts' content. :-)

    17. Re:Nope..It's lots of fans! by Knuckles · · Score: 1

      you can also record your own version of any copyrighted song and put it on a CD for sale without asking anyone. This is called a cover song, and the law gives you explicit permission to do that.

      Could you give a citation of the passage of copyright law that does so? I could not find one on http://www.copyright.gov/ but admittedly did only a cursory search. I remember numerous examples of lawsuits, and threats of lawsuits, against artists "covering" or sampling other people's copyrighted work, e.g. U2 vs Negativland and SST Records, for which U2 may forever burn in hell.

      --
      "When I first heard Daydream Nation it quite frankly scared the living shit out of me." -- Matthew Stearns
    18. Re:Nope..It's lots of fans! by Knuckles · · Score: 1

      Actually, I realize now that U2 vs Negativland was about use of copyrighted recordings and not cover songs, and the same is true of any sampling suits. I still would like to read where copyright law gives explicit permission to do cover songs though.

      --
      "When I first heard Daydream Nation it quite frankly scared the living shit out of me." -- Matthew Stearns
  5. Sheet music only? by rinkjustice · · Score: 5, Funny

    Can you download the music files also? If so, where are the links?

    1. Re:Sheet music only? by NeoSkink · · Score: 2, Funny

      It's scores only, although if you have the instruments, the studio, and whatnot... You could make the music files. ;)

    2. Re:Sheet music only? by jcarkeys · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, the performer's still own the rights to their performances of Mozart's works. Though you can find limited works freely available, you can't find it all.

    3. Re:Sheet music only? by stubear · · Score: 5, Funny

      You got the fucking code, compile it yourself.

    4. Re:Sheet music only? by FireFlie · · Score: 5, Informative

      If you want classical mp3s Classic Cat has a large selection of recordings of many composers' works. I believe it is all free and legal. Lot of good stuff.

    5. Re:Sheet music only? by Jello+B. · · Score: 1

      I can't mount /etc/violin...

    6. Re:Sheet music only? by Nasarius · · Score: 4, Funny

      That's /dev/violin, you noob.

      --
      LOAD "SIG",8,1
    7. Re:Sheet music only? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      more precisely, /dev/violina

    8. Re:Sheet music only? by Carthag · · Score: 5, Interesting

      wget -r -l 0 -np -Ajpg http://dme.mozarteum.at/; gocr *.jpg | txt2midi | mid2mp3 | mpg123 Aw yea

    9. Re:Sheet music only? by fbjon · · Score: 1

      Mozart in midi? I'd rather just enjoy reading the score then.

      --
      True confidence comes not from realising you are as good as your peers, but that your peers are as bad as you are.
    10. Re:Sheet music only? by gringer · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I wasn't aware that gocr by default translated musical scores into text. I'd expect lots of random letters if it attempted to parse those scores.

      --
      Ask me about repetitive DNA
    11. Re:Sheet music only? by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Wait... Even if that worked...

      Why would you convert the midi file to an mp3, just to play with mpg123? Leaving aside for a moment that mpg321 is better, and there are better things still, why not just play the midi?

      wget -r -l 0 -np -Ajpg http://dme.mozarteum.at/; gocr *.jpg | txt2midi | timidity -

      After all, you're wanting to do this realtime...

      --
      Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
    12. Re:Sheet music only? by bckrispi · · Score: 3, Funny
      You got the fucking code, compile it yourself.
      Thanks. Orange Juice almost squirted out of my nose.
      --
      Xenon, where's my money? -Borno
    13. Re:Sheet music only? by harlows_monkeys · · Score: 5, Funny
      Thanks. Orange Juice almost squirted out of my nose

      It was milk for me. The disturbing part is that I wasn't drinking at the time.

    14. Re:Sheet music only? by moosesocks · · Score: 1

      You don't get out much, do you?

      --
      -- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
    15. Re:Sheet music only? by 19thNervousBreakdown · · Score: 1

      Ha ha, you got the sucky one!

      --
      <xml><I><am><so><damn>Web 2.0</damn></so></am></I></xml>
    16. Re:Sheet music only? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Forgot what site you were on for a moment, yes?

    17. Re:Sheet music only? by Carthag · · Score: 1

      It would never ever work without human help. Not until we make AI that is better than our own anyway. So yeah, it's a joke :)

    18. Re:Sheet music only? by Carthag · · Score: 1

      I love that people are debugging a joke oneliner :)

    19. Re:Sheet music only? by amuzulo · · Score: 1

      Seems like there should be a program to be able to convert sheet music to mp3 or ogg files. This is technically possible, isn't it?

      --
      WikiCreole - a common wiki markup language
    20. Re:Sheet music only? by namekuseijin · · Score: 1

      Indeed. Besides, converting the wav output from a MIDI synthethizer like timidity into mp3 won't make it sound any better -- only good instrument samples and right timidity settings for effects like reverb, sustain and others can do that.

      Don't know why people modded you funny.

      --
      I don't feel like it...
    21. Re:Sheet music only? by SeanAhern · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yes, there are programs like that. I can only mention one that I've used, OMeR (http://myriad-online.com/en/products/omer.htm). It does optical recognition of scanned sheet music. I've had varying results with it, but as good as 95% recognition. This was a few years ago.

      (I am not affiliated with Myriad Online.)

    22. Re:Sheet music only? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, yes there are apps (Sibelius comes to mind) that convert scanned in manuscripts to midi at least. So wouldn't be that much of a stretch to take take midi and make it an mp3 or whatever.

    23. Re:Sheet music only? by Lumpio- · · Score: 1

      Yes, it's called "sheet music OCR and a MIDI synthesizer".

    24. Re:Sheet music only? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      It depends on the format of the scores. If they are something like PDF, then you need some OCR to turn them into something machine readable. If it's something like Lilypond, you can convert it to PDF for humans or MIDI for computers. Even with a decent MIDI synthesiser, however, it is going to be very poor compared to a real human performing it. The difference between a good conductor and a bad conductor/orchestra with this kind of thing is hugely noticeable, and a computerised rendition tends to be even worse.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    25. Re:Sheet music only? by ajs318 · · Score: 1

      Actually, the most appropriate thing to which sheet music could be readily converted would be a MIDI file; since both specify pitch, duration and voice. You could also convert MIDI back to a PostScript representation of the score.

      --
      Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
    26. Re:Sheet music only? by cortense · · Score: 1

      There are a number of other programs as well, including PhotoScore, part of the Sibelius suite... As well, I've had a great deal with the roll-your-own-OCR suite Gamera. Granted, you have to cobble together your own stuff, but you can mostly rely on pre-existing code. The advantage to Gamera is that you have a huge amount of flexibility, as you write your own processing scripts using Python.

      In reference to this particular set of online music, I'm not sure how helpful a music OCR program would be though, as from what I've seen, they're mostly sub-100 dpi images, and most music OCR software recommends upwards of 300 dpi for accurate recognition.

      However, if someone's just after Mozart midis, it's a heck of a lot easier to just go to ClassicalArchives.com. They have a huge amount of midi there. Granted, it's not likely based on the NMA, but if you're just after a midi, you probably don't care...

    27. Re:Sheet music only? by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      Pretty much. You could probably convert those sheets into MIDI files and go from there.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    28. Re:Sheet music only? by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 1

      Heh... What's funny is that converting to mp3 would likely make it sound worse. That's assuming it could encode the mp3 and decode it fast enough.

      I don't know, it seems kind of like

      cat /var/log/messages | gzip | zcat | less

      Even when it's lossless, it doesn't make sense.

      I can see why people modded me funny, though.

      --
      Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
    29. Re:Sheet music only? by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 1

      I love that I got modded up for debugging a joke oneliner! Only on Slashdot...

      --
      Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
    30. Re:Sheet music only? by kinglink · · Score: 1

      I was kinda hopeful they compiled every musical piece, and some group gave it away. Technically they can just give away music for free if they want. It'd be like open source music. Not a bad idea actually.

      It would be great to see a repository one day of free classical music, every mozart piece, every Beethoven symphony, every Pachelbel song. Well hopefully one day, though I don't find Mozart's music that interesting, he has some wonderful songs but nothing that really speaks to me.

    31. Re:Sheet music only? by ahoehn · · Score: 1

      Compile it? Do you realize the pain and suffering every work by Mozart puts the cello section through?

      F****** Mozart can keep his f****** sheet-music to himself. The man must have hated cellists. Maybe one slept with his girlfriend or stole his parking spot. Mozart's idea of a good cello line is the same four f****** notes repeated throughout the entire twelve-hour-long piece, at least it felt like twelve hours sitting there, watching the violins have the time of their life, while us f***** cellists played the same four f****** notes, over and over again. There were times when I would have happily gouged my eyes out with my own end-pin just to avoid looking at another page of the same four f******* notes penned by Mozart. The man may have been a genius, but he was a damn sadistic one.

      Now, "free" Mozart scores are going to be one more reason for underfunded music departments everywhere to force more of the damnedable man on their already abused cellists.

      Apparently I have a lot of pent up Mozart-related anger. Perhaps I should see someone about that.

      --
      Mod my comments down. It'll be fun.
    32. Re:Sheet music only? by lahvak · · Score: 1

      I think we need the "-1 Gross" moderation.

      --
      AccountKiller
    33. Re:Sheet music only? by tepples · · Score: 1

      Why would you convert the midi file to an mp3, just to play with mpg123?

      Because one doesn't just want to play it on mpg123. One also wants to play it on a handheld device that supports MPEG audio but does not support rendering Standard MIDI File to the General MIDI spec.

    34. Re:Sheet music only? by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 1
      Because one doesn't just want to play it on mpg123. One also wants to play it on a handheld device that supports MPEG audio but does not support rendering Standard MIDI File to the General MIDI spec.

      Valid argument, if that's what he was doing. He wasn't. He was piping it directly into mpg123.

      --
      Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
    35. Re:Sheet music only? by xouumalperxe · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, you didn't debug the REALLY important bit: the actual wget part. Doesn't work, and that's a shame. I can't seem to find a way to download the archive.

    36. Re:Sheet music only? by Eideewt · · Score: 1

      Then perhaps one should have saved the file rather than piping it to mpg123.

    37. Re:Sheet music only? by alcourt · · Score: 1

      Don't feel bad, the violas seemed to have the same, and they have the added insult of being almost no times that the viola gets highlighted for a phrase. At least in some pieces, the cellos get the melody.

      Could be worse, could be Pachelbel's Canon, the same two measures literally repeated the whole piece.

      --
      "I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend unto the death your right to say it." -- Voltaire
    38. Re:Sheet music only? by Jello+B. · · Score: 1

      ... *is pwned* Don't blame me too much. I've been stuck on this Windows box for a long while. That, and I'm fourteen.

    39. Re:Sheet music only? by Dabido · · Score: 1

      There are some free repositories of Copyright Free music out there. I downloaded a copy of Dowlands complete works (he was a Medieval Lutist) from one such site. Can't remember where it was though. It also had Pachelbel's Canon and a few other things. I'm sure if you start googling for ones, you might find some.

      --
      Sure enough, the cow costume was hanging up next to the superhero outfit and sailors uniform. (S,Spud)
    40. Re:Sheet music only? by pipingguy · · Score: 1

      I've got one mod point left (3 days late), too bad I couldn't mod this to Hilarious!

  6. Give the RIAA time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    and they will find a way for one of their members to place it under Copyright so anyone using Mozart's music could and would face lawsuits.

    1. Re:Give the RIAA time by westlake · · Score: 5, Insightful
      and they will find a way for one of their members to place it under Copyright so anyone using Mozart's music could and would face lawsuits.

      This edition is copyrighted.

      Mozart in the original would be of use only to an academic --- How do you read his notation? What instruments was he writing for? --- and so on.

      Students are being given "fair use" rights to study modern "translations" of Mozart.

      Musicians are not being given rights to public performance of the scores. There is a difference and it is a difference that matters.

    2. Re:Give the RIAA time by Thomas+the+Doubter · · Score: 1

      Hmm, What if I was to "reinterpret" a Copywritten edition using original notes I found at the library, and then reissued the resulting score as Public Domain. How much modification would I have to do to avoid legal trouble? It would be interesting in court...

      This is an especially ironic idea, as supposedly the original sources are the same.
      Thomas

    3. Re:Give the RIAA time by lazybratsche · · Score: 1

      Musicians are not being given rights to public performance of the scores. There is a difference and it is a difference that matters.

      I wonder where the line defining "public performance" sits. Obviously, a student "performing" for their teacher should be considered private performance. But how about a performance given to other members of a studio? Or a recital given in a private residence to friends and family? A studio recital open to other musicians at a large but "private" music school?

      Obviously, whenever a performance is advertised and completely open to the public (i.e. anyone could walk off the street and watch), or if anyone is charging, that falls well on the "public performance" side of the line. Where exactly is that line?

    4. Re:Give the RIAA time by MartinB · · Score: 3, Informative
      Mozart in the original would be of use only to an academic --- How do you read his notation? What instruments was he writing for? --- and so on.
      I'd agree with you if you were talking pre-C16th. But with a small number of exceptions (trumpet being one - the valved instrument was very new at the time, and pianos weren't built to carry over a large symphony orchestra), Mozart's available instrumentation was at most marginally different to the resources of a chamber orchestra today, and his notation is near as dammit the same.

      Even reading his handwritten notation is pretty easy by comparison - you don't get any of the scratchings out and revisions of many composers. Mozart seemed to have it all there in his head in finished form, and it was all a matter of just writing it down, so the first draft is the same quality as most composers' fair copy. Makes the rest of us green with envy, btw.
      --

      The only thing you can accurately describe as "Scotch" is a sticky tape made by 3M. And it's

    5. Re:Give the RIAA time by vidarh · · Score: 1

      Copyright violations in most countries requires actual copying - i.e. if you end up with the exact same result you may technically be in the clear if you started from sources that are not copyrighted. Keep in mind, though, that the more similar the works are, the more documentation you would need to support an assertion that you didn't copy, or the similarity would likely lead a court to consider it infringement. If you actually do copy, even if you modify it, it would take a lot for it not to be infringement. I'm not a lawyer - if you do want to play that game you better consult one.

  7. Completed Mozart Now Works For Free? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    They finally finished reassembling him, eh? And he creates new works without charging a penny, eh?? EXCELLENT!

    I now command the recently re-animated corpse of Mozart to pen me a symphony, with no expectation of compensation! POST-HASTE!

    1. Re:Completed Mozart Now Works For Free? by Hawthorne01 · · Score: 4, Funny

      Heck, I'd be satified if he finished his Requiem Mass...

      --
      "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
    2. Re:Completed Mozart Now Works For Free? by the+phantom · · Score: 4, Funny

      Unfortuantely, the newly animate corpse has actually been destroying many of his works. Mozart has been busy decomposing.

    3. Re:Completed Mozart Now Works For Free? by XO · · Score: 1

      The zombie Mozart responds:

      refraaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaains.. REFRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAINSSSSSSSSSSSSSss.........

      --
      "Champagne for my real friends - and real pain for my sham friends!" http://ericblade.postalboard.com/
    4. Re:Completed Mozart Now Works For Free? by SeaFox · · Score: 1
      The zombie Mozart responds:
      refraaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaains.. REFRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAINSSSSSSSSSSSSSss.........


      Gah! Well I, for one, do NOT welcome our zombie composer overlords!
    5. Re:Completed Mozart Now Works For Free? by MartinB · · Score: 1
      Mozart has been busy decomposing.
      obPython (Lyrics).
      --

      The only thing you can accurately describe as "Scotch" is a sticky tape made by 3M. And it's

  8. Suggestions by KrackHouse · · Score: 1

    The news article doesn't link to the site but has a link to the Amazon boxed set. Why aren't they using bit torrent? The site is a UI disaster. It's unclear how to find actual music.

    --
    What if Digg added local news and a Slashdot inspired comment karma system? ---
    http://houndwire.com
    1. Re:Suggestions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      It's unclear how to find actual music.
      Err, I clicked on 'Search'...
    2. Re:Suggestions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      The site has much more features than simply the downloading of scores. It also allows the text searching of critical reports and scholarly articles, which is a very valuable resource. One must remember the site is for both amateur and professional musician/musicologists, and so something like bittorrent would be totally insufficient for the features they have planned. Plus, professional musicians are generally computer-illiterate (I say this as a professional musician myself).

      The problem with the site that I think is causing confusion is the fact that it is in German at first (though you can switch to the English version). Otherwise, play around with it a bit and it works fairly well. I'm sure they can improve on the UI though... but that's not the most important thing by any stretch.

    3. Re:Suggestions by Petrushka · · Score: 2, Informative

      The site is a UI disaster. It's unclear how to find actual music.

      What do you mean? Click on "Search the NMA Online", and they give you a list of volumes. Click on the volume to expand it. Once you're looking at a list of individual works and movements, click on the Adobe logo to get a PDF file. Where's the difficulty?

  9. weirdest torrent ever? by straponego · · Score: 2, Funny

    Probably not, but... okay, weirdest non-porn torrent ever?

    1. Re:weirdest torrent ever? by Bagels · · Score: 4, Funny

      I once saw a torrent composed of hundreds of pie recipes. That beats out Mozart easily.

      --
      --- Bwah?
    2. Re:weirdest torrent ever? by rdoger6424 · · Score: 2, Funny

      Where did you see this delicious torrent?

      --
      "Hello 911? I just tried to toast some bread, and the toaster grew an arm and stabbed me in the face!"
    3. Re:weirdest torrent ever? by Isotopian · · Score: 5, Funny

      at ThePierateBay, duh.

      --

      It's poetry with a beat behind it! And guns! They're like beatniks with automatic weapons.

    4. Re:weirdest torrent ever? by Stormwatch · · Score: 1

      It's also at TorrentsPie.

  10. Konquerer by X0563511 · · Score: 3, Informative

    Don't bother trying to get in with Konquerer. Holy mis-rendering Batman!

    --
    For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
  11. Rock Me Amadeus by jamesjw · · Score: 1

    So does this mean I can download Falco's stuff without legal issues now? :)

    --
    -- If at first you don't succeed, lie!
    1. Re:Rock Me Amadeus by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny
      So does this mean I can download Falco's stuff without legal issues now? :)

      Whether it's legal or not, you will never be able to download Falco without having "issues".

    2. Re:Rock Me Amadeus by absoluteflatness · · Score: 1

      Woosh.

  12. other options by bcrowell · · Score: 5, Informative

    Before anyone gets too excited -- there are plenty of public-domain editions of Mozart. This is just one particular edition that's going to be available online for free. There's actually a huge amount of PD sheed music available at Mutopia. The nice thing about the Mutopia stuff is that it's in a format that's editable using free software (Lilypond). For instance, I've taken some Mozart horn duets and arranged them so my daughter and I can play them on violin and viola. Because it's in Lilypond format, it's easy to transpose, arrange, whatever. If all you want is digital scans of PD editions, there are various sites that will let you download scans for free. One thing that seems a little goofy about the NMA thing is that they make you agree to use this web site only for personal study and not to make copies except for my personal use under "Fair Use" principles of Copyright law as defined in this license agreement. Uh ... fair use is an exception to copyright. Hell, I can copy a Britney Spears CD and call it fair use.

    1. Re:other options by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "that they make you agree to use this web site only for personal study and not to make copies except for my personal use under "Fair Use" principles of Copyright law as defined in this license agreement. Uh ... fair use is an exception to copyright. "

      Not where I live it isn't. We only have 'fair dealing', which is, er, unfair. Its possible they're attempting to loosen the license so that /worldwide/ you get US law rights at minimum.

    2. Re:other options by tony1343 · · Score: 1

      Yep, fair use is an affirmative defense to copyright infringement in the U.S. It is broader than "fair dealing" or whatnot that Europe has, which is why some say we aren't in compliance with the Berne Convention. The U.S. though sees copyright as providing an economic incentive to create, while Europe sees it more as a natural right tied to the personality of the creator. This is why the Europe has much broader moral rights than the U.S. (once again some claim we aren't living up to the Berne Convention). I see fair use as a pretty good doctrine though. It allows for such things as time-shifting, which might not otherwise be allowed without it. Possibly contintental europe has more exceptions within their copyright law (I'm not sure). This might just be a distinction between a common law legal system and civil law. I'm sure nobody here cares about this rambling though.

    3. Re:other options by bcrowell · · Score: 1

      The really scary thing about fair use is that you may think you're covered, but the criteria are vague enough that you never really know until you've been sued, and the verdict is in :-)

      One thing I'm a little uncomfortable with is the way people are using fair use so much on Wikipedia, for images. In some cases, I think people are not bothering to come up with their own free-as-in-speech images, because there's already an illustration on WP, which is under fair use.

    4. Re:other options by RockyMountain · · Score: 2, Informative

      Before anyone gets too excited -- there are plenty of public-domain editions of Mozart.

      I disagree.

      This is _very_ exciting news. There are indeed some public-domain editions of a very tiny subset of Mozart's compelete works. Mutopia is the best example, but even there, a keyword search on "Mozart" gives only about 60 hits -- for Leopold and Wolfgang combined. Well, Wolfgang composed 626+ opusses, so at best Mutopia has 10%. In fact far less becase many are incomplete scores (fragments, extracted parts, arrangements for particular instrument groupings, etc.), and many are duplications (the same work arranged for different instrument groupings).

      What's more exciting is that these are high quality, authentic scores for original instrumentation. That's hard to find, even if you're prepared to pay top dollar. And consider that a symphony or voilin concerto complete score (all orchestral parts plus soloist) is likely to set you back many hundreds of dollars -- just for a single opus.

      As a violinist, for me this is just truly wonderful news. Oh, if only t'were true of more composers. Dare we hope? Hmmm Beethoven's 250th birthday is 2020. :-)

    5. Re:other options by bcrowell · · Score: 1

      Mutopia is the best example, but even there, a keyword search on "Mozart" gives only about 60 hits [...]
      I didn't say there were plenty of public-domain editions of Mozart, online, for free, in editable formats, on Mutopia. I just said there were plenty of public-domain editions of Mozart. Go to a university library, and I'm sure you'll find quite a few on the shelves.

      And consider that a symphony or voilin concerto complete score (all orchestral parts plus soloist) is likely to set you back many hundreds of dollars -- just for a single opus.
      It would be interesting to know what the actual legal status of these scores is. The NMA page seems to be saying that they're copyrighted, and a public performance by an orchestra would be illegal. (On their site, they say "only for personal study.") Of course, it could be a case where people who don't actully own a copyright posture themselves as if they do; that's very common.

    6. Re:other options by RockyMountain · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Oh Hi, Ben. Didn't recognise you from that other forum.
      D Minor.

    7. Re:other options by Vintermann · · Score: 1

      Well, many publishers have been going on for so long that their urtexts (at the very least) are in the public domain. I'm not sure Peters published every work of Mozart ever (actually, I'm sure they didn't) but it's not all that hard to find sheet music actually printed in the twenties or thirties.

      There's no way the publishers can use their typographic excuses on those, so we can just scan them and spread them far and wide. Only reason it hasn't happened already is that classical musicians don't have time to stay updated on information sharing trends and technology.

      There was a shop which specialised in antique sheet music in Oslo that recently closed, sold out everything pretty cheap. We managed to get hold of some. I'll see if I can get them scanned.

      --
      xkcd is not in the sudoers file. This incident will be reported.
    8. Re:other options by vidarh · · Score: 1
      Europe sees it more as a natural right tied to the personality of the creator. This is why the Europe has much broader moral rights than the U.S. (once again some claim we aren't living up to the Berne Convention).

      Actually, in many (most? I don't know) European countries there are two separate principles. Copyright has more or less the same legal protection as in the US, but what you are referring to as "moral rights" is something different. Copyright can be transferred but "moral rights" or your "rights as a creator" of a work can't be transferred.

      The latter mainly centers around rights of recognition as the creator of a work and protection of your professional reputation.

      Norwegian law, to take a fairly typical example, explicitly guarantee a creator of a work the right to ensure his/her name is on the work in the way normal for the type of work, and to ensure that the work is not presented or used in a way that is offensive or damaging to the professional reputation of the creator or to the reputation or public consideration of the work.

      Those rights can't be lost or transferred, even when copyright is transferred, though they can be signed away for specific, limited circumstances. That does not mean your name must be on a work, but if you want it to it's your right to demand it. If the creator of a work signs away the right to control the use of a work in a limited situation possibly damaging to his reputation, he then has the right to refuse the use of his name in association with the work, and that right can't be signed away at all.

      I'm not sure (IANAL) but I believe the above is one of the things that is more widespread in legal systems following the Germanic legal tradition.

    9. Re:other options by soliptic · · Score: 1
      Hell, I can copy a Britney Spears CD and call it fair use
      No, you almost certainly can't. "Fair use" is not a slashdotter's carte blanche for copying complete music albums at will, much as you'd think it was after reading this place for a while. It has a specific meaning defined in law.
      the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright.... In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include... the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole...

      USC TITLE 17 > CHAPTER 1 > 107
      I would be surprised if you could successfully argue in court that your criticism/scholarship/comment use justified copying the entire CD, and not a portion thereof.
    10. Re:other options by cortense · · Score: 1

      Seconded!

      The importance of this release is not that Mozart scores are now available online--the grandparent post points out that there were already some available--but that these are critical scholarly editions! This means that not only the music is available, but the complete critical reports (Kritischer Berichte) as well, a huge boon for those doing music research, as this material was previously only available to most people in libraries. These editions also represent the best and latest scholarly versions of the works, most times taking into account all extant sources of a given work, whereas older editions may not necessarily do so. This means that the NMA scores are, arguably, the most authentic versions of Mozart's works; quite a difference from something you might find on Mutopia, in my experience.

      Do I think that this should allow anyone to simply perform this music without paying royalties to the publisher that were previously paid? No... who is going to fund the creation of new critical editions and the maintenance of existing ones? If we're talking about a small performance, those sorts of groups probably weren't paying royalties on Mozart to begin with, as has been mentioned, his work (if in older editions) is already in the public domain. I do, however, I think that this material should be available for free to those interested in studying it.

      Congratulations to all those parties who've made this possible, and here's hoping that more composers' music will be made available online in this fashion! We've certainly shown that it's popular; more popular than they were expecting...

    11. Re:other options by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, you most certainly can copy an entire Britney Spears CD and call it fair use, depending on what you are planning to do with the copy. The fair use factors are factors, not a bright line test. One might reasonably copy one's legally owned Britney Spears CD as an tape cassette or MP3 so that one might use it at the gym-- portable CD players are notorious for skipping when one tries to carry them when running, for example. I sincerely doubt that Britney would be able to win a copyright infringement case against one in that situation, for all that the music publishing companies would like to claim that people must rebuy their music again and again.

    12. Re:other options by ajs318 · · Score: 1

      Fair Dealing is whatever the courts determine it to be.

      If you are unlucky enough to get arrested for a minor copyright violation (for that is a criminal matter in the UK) such as converting CDs to MP3, your defence would be that you were Dealing Fairly with the work in question. If the jury acquitted you, that would set a precedent and effectively legalise whatever it was you had done. And they aren't going to convict you -- if they did, they would almost certainly be incriminating themselves, since almost nobody has never "Dealt Fairly" with copyrighted material. I'd lay odds that the judge was listening to a home-recorded tape in his car on the way to court that morning.

      Nobody has ever been, nor ever will get anywhere near a court of law for taping CDs that they own to listen in the car, or making MP3s from CDs they own (this cannot be anything but Fair Dealing, since it constitutes a Necessary Step in playing the CD -- which you have a common-law right to do by virtue of owning the disc -- on a device which you own but which happens not to be intrinsically capable of playing CDs). However, as long as such acts aren't the subject of inalienable statutory rights, there's a possibility that a bent copper could use a home-taped album between the seats of a suspect's car to get a warrant to search his home and plant evidence of a more serious crime. This is commonly called a "fishing expedition".

      Unless the Old Bill already want you for something else, you won't get pulled for a minor copyright violation. If you do, it's the first sign that a more serious offence is about to be pinned on you (and for what it's worth, the copyright charge will be dropped between now and court).

      --
      Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
    13. Re:other options by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He can call it anything he wants, Fair Use, Privateering, a gift from his close personal friend Britney. Whether the courts would agree with him or not is another story.

  13. that's not really "free" by idlake · · Score: 5, Insightful

    What they have put up is hardly "free"; it requires you to agree to a license agreement that limits you to "personal use" under "fair use" principles. Well, geez, you already could copy the music under those principles before.

    Companies like Barereiter have been playing tricks with copyright for a long time, for example, by slightly modifying sheet music every few years with meaningless (and often, erroneous) "interpretations".

    This is not how music should be treated 200 years after a composer's death, in particular in the day and age of the Internet. There is no reason why Mozart's entire body of work shouldn't be digitized and freely available with no restrictions on use at all, in a form like Project Gutenberg.

    1. Re:that's not really "free" by vga_init · · Score: 1

      If the term of the copyright has expired, I don't actually think any kind of license can be enforced anymore. The summary implied that the copyright expired on the works, but is that not true?

    2. Re:that's not really "free" by rk · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Pretty slick how they convinced a charitable trust to pony up six figures to grant us rights we pretty much already have.

      I was really stoked until I went to the page and saw that.

    3. Re:that's not really "free" by jfengel · · Score: 4, Informative

      The copyright is expired on the works, but not on this particular edition of the works, which is a particularly well-researched one.

      Think of an edition as being like a translation from another language. You could, if you want, transcribe the music yourself from Mozart's original documents, if you had them. (They're in various libraries and collections throughout the world; a friend of mine worked with some at the Library of Congress.) In fact, there are often several originals, some incomplete and some conflicting with each other.

      It's a lot of work, like doing a translation, and like a translation, the resulting document is itself a new work with a new original copyright date.

    4. Re:that's not really "free" by EvanED · · Score: 1

      I don't think that's true. I read the summary as "despite the copyright on these editions still applying, they are being released..."

    5. Re:that's not really "free" by stubear · · Score: 1

      Don't confuse the slashbots with truth and reason, they bite back. I've tried explaining the simple concepts of copyright law to them and they refuse to comprehend.

    6. Re:that's not really "free" by Metasquares · · Score: 1

      Mutopia is similar to what you're describing.

    7. Re:that's not really "free" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We may have technically had the rights, but in practice none of us would be able to easily make use of those rights. Now we can.

    8. Re:that's not really "free" by westlake · · Score: 1
      Pretty slick how they convinced a charitable trust to pony up six figures to grant us rights we pretty much already have.

      You have the right to use editions of Mozart in the public domain.

      That does not necessarily give you what you need for academic study, public or private performance.

      How do you interpret Mozart's original manuscripts? What instruments did he write for? Under what conditions was his music performed?

      It is not a trivial problem to resurrect a computer game that has been out of print for ten years. What do you suppose happens when the "source code" and secondary resources are over two hundred years old ?

    9. Re:that's not really "free" by mrchaotica · · Score: 3, Insightful
      It is not a trivial problem to resurrect a computer game that has been out of print for ten years. What do you suppose happens when the "source code" and secondary resources are over two hundred years old ?

      This is exactly the problem that copyright law is supposed to prevent!!!

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    10. Re:that's not really "free" by mr_matticus · · Score: 1

      No kidding. Rabid Internet people hear what they want to.

    11. Re:that's not really "free" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      eh, it might be some work, but it's not like translation. And when it's completed, it's an edition of original work, not "new work" -- the person doing the editing didn't compose a new piece (almost everything is still the same).

    12. Re:that's not really "free" by bytesex · · Score: 1

      You don't have to transcribe it from the original. Transcribing it from any transcription more than a hundred years old (which is when there was already a lot of consensus on the 'final' notation of a lot of pieces) will do.

      --
      Religion is what happens when nature strikes and groupthink goes wrong.
    13. Re:that's not really "free" by advocate_one · · Score: 1
      Companies like Barereiter have been playing tricks with copyright for a long time, for example, by slightly modifying sheet music every few years with meaningless (and often, erroneous) "interpretations".

      that's what Disney do with their films every few years, do a little cleaning here, a little tarting up there... issue it as a "digitally remastered" special edition DVD... anything to "reset" the copyright clock

      --
      Donald 'Duck' Dunn: We had a band powerful enough to turn goat piss into gasoline.
    14. Re:that's not really "free" by Jeff+DeMaagd · · Score: 1

      The problem is that recordings are considered copyrighted from the time of the recording, as derivative works aren't automatically out of copyright when the original work leaves copyright. I think most people probably wouldn't want recordings that left copyright just by age, what would that be? Wax cylinders?

    15. Re:that's not really "free" by namekuseijin · · Score: 1

      why only the original manuscripts from Mozart's own pen? If so many book editions from that period survive to this day and indeed Mozart's own manuscripts, then why no score editions from that period? Why should i scan from this copyrighted edition in particular?

      --
      I don't feel like it...
    16. Re:that's not really "free" by MBGMorden · · Score: 1

      Patent law actually. Patents are meant to give people security and encourage them to disclose how something works rather than keep it secret.

      Copyright merely gives an incentive to create new material. Whether that material remains in an accessible format is not really at issue. It could be beneficial if it was, but publishers need not disclose source code for a program that fell out of copyright - they simply can't stop you from distributing the binary anymore (nor could they stop you from distributing the source code if you happened to have a copy).

      --
      "People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
    17. Re:that's not really "free" by mrchaotica · · Score: 1
      Copyright merely gives an incentive to create new material.

      It also seeks to establish a base of material for others to build upon, which works a lot better when the "source code" (i.e., the preferred form for modification, which includes things like Photoshop files for artwork in addition to computer code) is available.

      It could be beneficial if it was, but publishers need not disclose source code for a program that fell out of copyright

      There was a time when, in order to obtain copyright protection, an author had to specifically apply for it and send a copy of the work to the Library of Congress. I think we should return to that method, but additionally require that the "source code" be submitted to the LoC, to be made available when the copyright expires.

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    18. Re:that's not really "free" by geekoid · · Score: 1

      "There was a time when, in order to obtain copyright protection, an author had to specifically apply for it and send a copy of the work to the Library of Congress"

      I don't think that's correct.

      Registering is just a way to prove you had it on X date. There are other ways of doing so.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  14. See? Copyright has its limits by Weaselmancer · · Score: 4, Funny

    I'm sure Mozart is finally wealthy enough to where having his music in the public domain won't hurt him.

    Wait? He's been dead for 215 years? Oh. Nevermind.

    --
    Weaselmancer
    rediculous.
  15. Re:See? Copyright has its limits by Microlith · · Score: 1

    Great way to make a completely invalid point.

    There's no question that Mozart's works are in the public domain. But performances are still copyrighted. These have just been released freely.

  16. German Musicians... by goatpunch · · Score: 1

    Cute message from the site: "NOTE: We are overvelmed by the resonance of this website. We regret any delays in accessing this site and are working on expanding our server capacities"

  17. Mozart + Hilton + Britney = Party Ethics?! by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

    Did anyone find it funny that underneath the article on Mozart's year long birday party that there's an article of Paris Hilton defending Britney's "party ethics"? I think those over-sexed party girls need some Mozart to calm them down.

    1. Re:Mozart + Hilton + Britney = Party Ethics?! by TheFoolishOne · · Score: 2, Informative

      On the contrary. Mozart and his ilk invented the rave, although in his days, the music was better, but the drugs were pretty lousy. Still, I'd expect if Mozart was around today, we'd see his mangina flashed around the media pretty often.

    2. Re:Mozart + Hilton + Britney = Party Ethics?! by raddan · · Score: 2, Informative
      Mozart wasn't exactly the paragon of conservatism. From Wikipedia:

      Shaffer's play [Amadeus] attracted criticism for portraying Mozart as vulgar and loutish, a characterization felt by many to be unfairly exaggerated, but in fact frequently confirmed by the composer's letters and other memorabilia. For example, Mozart wrote canons on the words "Leck mich im Arsch" ("Lick my arse") and "Leck mich im Arsch recht fein schön sauber" ("Lick my arse nice and clean") as party pieces for his friends.

      And if you believe that Amadeus is representative of fact (which it probably is not, but is an entertaining play/movie in any event), then Mozart serves as more of a model for Paris Hilton's and Brittney Spears' current behavior than anything else. A genius... and a party animal!
    3. Re:Mozart + Hilton + Britney = Party Ethics?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah... people forget that the first time the police had to be called to quell a riot at a concert was at the premier of Beethoven's Ninth Symphony. Nothing new under the sun.

    4. Re:Mozart + Hilton + Britney = Party Ethics?! by MartinB · · Score: 1

      It's also probably worth pointing out that Mozart's contemporary society was a great deal more scatalogical than present day US mores would permit. By our standards, Mozart would have been vulgar and loutish. But so would everyone else, probably right up to the Emperor.

      If you want to criticise Schaffer's play, do so on the basis of the calumny in the central thesis and treatment of Salieri.

      --

      The only thing you can accurately describe as "Scotch" is a sticky tape made by 3M. And it's

    5. Re:Mozart + Hilton + Britney = Party Ethics?! by MemoryDragon · · Score: 1

      Mozart himself was an oversexed party guy, it is a common myth that Mozart was poor, fact is he was very rich in his income, but he blew all the money out of the window with an exaggerated lifestyle. Also he was supposed to be a very rude person, parts of his letters were reedited after his death by his wife and her later husband, to clean up his image.

  18. Very good because most Mozart on p2p networks... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    ...had too many notes.

  19. I doubt it. The Slashdotting is no more. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The Slashdot effect just isn't what it used to be. This could be due to a number of factors, the main ones being a decreasing number of readers, and advances in server technology.

    Rumor has it that many Slashdot users have moved to sites like Reddit and Digg. According to Alexa, Digg has seen massive growth, Reddit has seen moderate growth, and Slashdot's reach has been tapering off. I know many find Alexa's data to be suspect, but it is still worth considering.

    Even low-end servers today can handle massive amounts of traffic with ease. While hundreds of hits per second could take down a 200 MHz server quite easily a few years back, it's not uncommon for even dynamically generated sites on shared hosts to barely notice a Slashdotting or even a Digging.

    1. Re:I doubt it. The Slashdotting is no more. by buswolley · · Score: 1

      Exactly, which is why all my article submissions point toward the unsuspecting amateur.

      --

      A Good Troll is better than a Bad Human.

    2. Re:I doubt it. The Slashdotting is no more. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why was this modded a troll? I know its AC, but it deserves insightful so that it gets read. So - again, why the troll status, for mentioning Alexa or Digg (granted both are crap, but its still something that should be considered)???

      Anyway, to redundantly back what the AC parent said, its like with video cards - the onboard mobo chips used to be so crappy you'd were lucky if it ran the Windows desktop or Xorg (like 95'ish, ok) whereas now onboard graphics can often play modern FPS. The only time those have a problem is when you try to turn the graphics up high.

      In relation to servers, if the only thing a modern server (a year or 2 old at worst) is serving out is HTML and maybe some PHP and MySQL, its plausible the box would survive a slashdotting (well, a mild one anyway). Its only that us sadistic people that enjoy servers going down do to the slashdot-effect that will rejoice the day every non-web designer that knows photoshop learns how to slice up a 1024x768 image and put the whole thing in a page, or if Flash become insanely popular (compared to what it has now).

      So until that day comes, the parent AC poster has a valid point (in my mind anyway)...

    3. Re:I doubt it. The Slashdotting is no more. by Andrew+Kismet · · Score: 2, Funny

      I gotta agree with the AC, considering his point about FPSes.

      Crap PC: £300
      Half-Life 2: £20
      Running HL2 on Intel Integrated Graphics: Priceless

    4. Re:I doubt it. The Slashdotting is no more. by namekuseijin · · Score: 1

      Not sure slashdot is really losing readers to digg or reddit. One of the latest front-page additions to digg is a story named "Crazy Man Dancing In Best Buy!!!". While not much worse than yesterday's slashdot story on "unskilled musician playing instruments via stop-motion video editing" youtube stupidness, at least the latter is a well-crafted hack.

      If slashdot is losing some readers for that, i'd say it's nothing losing much. Specially as digg's comments are "teh suck". Won't even touch on reddit and its political agenda: not stuff that matters for nerds...

      I feel that slashdot's filter for submitted stories is a lot better than having to filter them myself when searching news on digg...

      --
      I don't feel like it...
    5. Re:I doubt it. The Slashdotting is no more. by Professor_UNIX · · Score: 1

      Of course the front page isn't going to appeal to many Slashdot readers since it is too general. Change your view to the technology section on Digg and you'll find more interesting stuff, albeit heavily Mac-biased and prone to rumor mongering.

    6. Re:I doubt it. The Slashdotting is no more. by Ed+Avis · · Score: 1
      Rumor has it that many Slashdot users have moved to sites like Reddit and Digg. According to Alexa...
      Never mind Alexa. Has Netcraft confirmed it?
      --
      -- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
    7. Re:I doubt it. The Slashdotting is no more. by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      Complaining to tech support that the game won't run on your new computer: $your dignity

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    8. Re:I doubt it. The Slashdotting is no more. by The-Bus · · Score: 1

      And it only takes a quick glance at those pages to see what's new and important there: a yes, a funny thread from Something awful, and, oh, the Top 50 Viral Videos of 2006.

      No thanks and no offense, but I'd rather have those sites deal with those topics than have Slashdot cater to that demographic.

      --

      Small potatoes make the steak look bigger.

    9. Re:I doubt it. The Slashdotting is no more. by cluke · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yeah, well maybe that is no bad thing. I tried Digg, but the comments section makes Slashdot look like a think-tank of the world's brightest minds in comparison. So, if the idiots go there, happy days!

    10. Re:I doubt it. The Slashdotting is no more. by Andrew+Kismet · · Score: 1

      But that's the thing. It DID work. And well.
      Okay, so no HDR lighting for me, and certain transparent textures didn't work right but it played damn fine regardless.

  20. Re:See? Copyright has its limits by jamesjw · · Score: 1


    215 years eh? Thats gonna be some serious royalties!

    --
    -- If at first you don't succeed, lie!
  21. Concering copyright of the Neue Mozart-Ausgabe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    Many people here seem, as expected, look more on the copyright side of the issue. The fact is, getting such an edition together is *not* easy by any stretch. That particular edition itself (Neue Mozart-Ausgabe) took 36 years (finished in 1991) to complete. Consider the amount of money that has to be paid to musicologists to do research for the 35 years. Obviously Barenreiter doesn't want to give it away for free. So the Internationale Stiftung Mozarteum *bought* the rights of online publication from Barenreiter, and of course even then there will be limits to what you can do with it. Obviously you cannot use these scans to publish and sell your own version of it. I consider Internationale Stiftung Mozarteum very very generous, and I thank them for it.

    Also, the Neue Mozart-Ausgabe is NOT public domain in any sense of the word, because of the editing. As professional musicians know, editing is *not* something you suddenly decide to do, or something where you change a few notes and that's that. It is a long process where you research all evidence (including conflicting ones), and try to build an edition that the composer himself would have approved of. And for most editions (and all of the Barenreiter ones) a critical report comes with each piece; and it documents the path of research and the evidence used.

    If you want truly public domain Mozart scores, try the Alte Mozart-Ausgabe (the old complete edition), which is completely in the public domain, with partial scans if it circulating around the net. Though, if you checked on wikipedia, you'll realize how big a difference there is between the Alte and Neue Mozart-Ausgabes.

    1. Re:Concering copyright of the Neue Mozart-Ausgabe by idlake · · Score: 1

      Many people here seem, as expected, look more on the copyright side of the issue. The fact is, getting such an edition together is *not* easy by any stretch

      No, it isn't. And it's a good thing if it is made available even in this limited form. The issue is with the content of the announcement and who paid whom for what.

      Consider the amount of money that has to be paid to musicologists to do research for the 35 years.

      I suspect many of those musicologists are gainfully employed in academia and paid for by the public already. And if the music community had a community spirit, these discussions, academic as well as interpretational, could be carried out in a public forum (like Wikipedia).

    2. Re:Concering copyright of the Neue Mozart-Ausgabe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I suspect many of those musicologists are gainfully employed in academia and paid for by the public already. I do doubt that the musicologists are paid for by the public (that just does not make very much sense). They may be employed in academia, but they would have to take years off in order to do research (like one of my professors did for a Rossini critical edition), because most of the evidence is in various places in Europe and sometimes Russia, and they would have to travel around. Of course, not only they will need to be get reimbursed for their traveling fees, but also paid for the work they are doing.

      And if the music community had a community spirit, these discussions, academic as well as interpretations, could be carried out in a public forum (like Wikipedia). Well... it is not that the music community does not have a community spirit. It is rather that in order to do what they do, you need a huge amount of training. I am constantly amazed at the sheer amount of information and knowledge of musical pieces that my music history professors (which is composed of mostly musicologists) know. It is not something that can be done in a wikipedia style; for there is only a select few in the world that can undertake this correctly. Just take the Alte Mozart-Ausgabe as an example. Even though it is done by famous musicologists at the time, and even led by the then Mozart authority Ludwig Ritter von Köchel, it has come under heavy fire for several parts of it which people now say is inadequately researched.

      The rule is that only one musicologist works on a single work (this is true for all critical editions that I know of); multiple people (even musicologists) would only make the process more ineffective, since you'll have to constantly sync the state of research between the two.

      Also, there is NO interpretation in making a new edition. It is almost completely scientific, with reasons given for every note. However, you do need to know a huge amount of information (both musical and otherwise) surrounding the object of your research.
    3. Re:Concering copyright of the Neue Mozart-Ausgabe by kyouteki · · Score: 1

      Well... it is not that the music community does not have a community spirit. It is rather that in order to do what they do, you need a huge amount of training. I am constantly amazed at the sheer amount of information and knowledge of musical pieces that my music history professors (which is composed of mostly musicologists) know. It is not something that can be done in a wikipedia style; for there is only a select few in the world that can undertake this correctly. Just take the Alte Mozart-Ausgabe as an example. Even though it is done by famous musicologists at the time, and even led by the then Mozart authority Ludwig Ritter von Köchel, it has come under heavy fire for several parts of it which people now say is inadequately researched.

      That's what people thought about general researchers before Wikipedia, but Jimbo proved them wrong. I am constantly amazed at the sheer amount of information on Wikipedia...I mean, just look at the list of good articles. There are some gems in there. I don't doubt a bit that a music research site would flourish...maybe it wouldn't to the degree of Wikipedia (due to the smaller scale) but it would still be successful, I believe. Of course, IANAM (I am not a musicologist), so YMMV.

      --
      A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
  22. Re:Sampling and Remixing? by FireFlie · · Score: 1

    If it were possible to remix the scores, I would imagine that they would be all for it.

  23. no one force anyone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No one "forced" anyone to do anything.

    these folks are just nice!

    HOORAY!!!

  24. Re:See? Copyright has its limits by EvanED · · Score: 1

    Not just performances though, but publications of the sheet music.

  25. copyright wasnt too long.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm sure Mozart is finally wealthy enough to where having his music in the public domain won't hurt him. Wait? He's been dead for 215 years? Oh. Nevermind.

    Could be worse, I can see it now. Mozart-beta [google]
  26. This was on AskMeFi earlier today. by Kadin2048 · · Score: 1

    It's interesting that this topic came up on Slashdot. Earlier today I was reading a question on Ask Metafilter about this very site, regarding downloading some of their files as PDFs.

    It seems as though they present the PDFs using some sort of weird PHP interface that discourages downloading and saving them.

    It's also worth pointing out that the scores are not really 'free' in the free-software sense, they're released under a fairly restrictive license that they are claiming applies to the scanned images of the scores, independent of the scores themselves (which should be in the public domain). I tend to agree with the MeFi-er that this claim is spurious, at least in the U.S., since simply scanning a document isn't enough of a creative act to put it under a new copyright. It seems more like a collection of recipes or other non-copyrightable or public domain material.

    At any rate, it would be interesting to see if Slashdotters can have any more success figuring out a way to download the PDF files than the folks on MeFi did.

    --
    "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
    1. Re:This was on AskMeFi earlier today. by CRCulver · · Score: 2, Informative

      It's also worth pointing out that the scores are not really 'free' in the free-software sense, they're released under a fairly restrictive license [redhost24-001.com] that they are claiming applies to the scanned images of the scores, independent of the scores themselves (which should be in the public domain).

      The only scores definitely in the public domain are Mozart's original autographs. Engraved editions of his music, provided they were produced after 1923, are under copyright. It's the same situation with books like the Oxford Classical Texts. Whoever wrote out a given papyrus of Herodotos' History has long been dead and lost copyright over his work, but the text that Oxford has compiled by comparing manuscripts is copyright.

      Creating a definitive text from various scribbled manuscripts is painstaking work, it's no surprise that copyright law covers this process as well as that of purely original works.
    2. Re:This was on AskMeFi earlier today. by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 1

      AFAIK, the scanned images are just that -- scanned images. There may be other parts of the site that are subject to copyright, but I don't believe those images are.

      I mean, what you're essentially saying is, once copyright expires on these PDFs, I can convert them to jpegs or pngs and claim copyright on those. How does that make sense?

      --
      Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
    3. Re:This was on AskMeFi earlier today. by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 2, Informative

      Compilations aren't necessarily copyrightable, though, and even where they are, the compilation copyright only covers the compilation, and not the material that compromises the compilation. That is, it covers a specific arrangement and selection of items, but not the items themselves. And the compilation still has to be original and creative. An uncreative one isn't copyrightable.

      As for it being hard work, so what? Copyright is interested in originality, not hard work. An original limerick written in thirty seconds is copyrightable, but a book of uncreatively selected and arranged facts that took a lifetime to produce is not copyrightable.

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
  27. Mod Parent Up! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    +5 Informative

  28. Unrefined Musician by jamesl · · Score: 1

    Quick -- copies to the Unrefined Musician!

  29. Re:epir aew;jrasd;klf jwerioaspdfk ;asdlfkfdgpoire by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Usually I love this base64-encoded stuff, but what the fuck? It's some code from some website in another language. Mod parent sideways.

  30. Moo by Chacham · · Score: 1

    This story is music to my ears.

    Mozart was considered a genius, by people we consider geniuses. This is definitely something to checkout.

    1. Re:Moo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Did you mean "music to your eyes", or can you actually read sheet music with your ears?

    2. Re:Moo by Carewolf · · Score: 1

      A genius yes, but a pop-musical annoying genius. The 17th century Robbie Williams or Britney Spears.

      The reason people still likes Mozart today is not because his music is profound, but because it is evergreen pop, like ABBA and friends

    3. Re:Moo by namekuseijin · · Score: 1

      Sorry, but no: pop musicians from the day have their music played today just as much as Madonna some 200 years from now. Except Madonna still has the technologic advantage that it has never been so easy to copy and distribute works through a network, so it won't ever really be lost like Bach's music has been for many decades...

      Perhaps you should listen to more work from Mozart rather than just the well-known light-hearted stuff such as the Alla Turca sonata movement or Eine Kleine Nachtmusik...

      --
      I don't feel like it...
    4. Re:Moo by namekuseijin · · Score: 1

      "Perhaps you should listen to more work from Mozart rather than just the well-known light-hearted stuff such as the Alla Turca sonata movement or Eine Kleine Nachtmusik..."

      and BTW, even these are much more profound music than the likes you cited...

      --
      I don't feel like it...
    5. Re:Moo by OldeTimeGeek · · Score: 1

      That may be so, and Shakespeare's works also played well to the masses. Does that make them any less important?

  31. Hardly free by Jessta · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "I agree to use this web site only for personal study and not to make copies except for my personal use under "Fair Use" principles of Copyright law as defined in this license agreement." Doesn't sound very free to me.

    --
    ...and that is all I have to say about that.
    http://jessta.id.au
    1. Re:Hardly free by fbjon · · Score: 1

      You're getting 35 years worth of work without any cost to you. That's just about as free as things can get without a capital F.

      --
      True confidence comes not from realising you are as good as your peers, but that your peers are as bad as you are.
    2. Re:Hardly free by jZnat · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That's free of charge (i.e. gratis), not just "free". The word free by itself in this context makes no sense and leaves plenty of ambiguities.

      --
      'Yes, firefox is indeed greater than women. Can women block pops up for you? No. Can Firefox show you naked women? Yes.'
    3. Re:Hardly free by Jessta · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      In reference to your sig:
      'pop-up blocking' is not a feature. It's actually a lack of a feature.
      It's like saying you made Windows XP cracker proof by removing the TCP/IP stack.

      --
      ...and that is all I have to say about that.
      http://jessta.id.au
    4. Re:Hardly free by Aladrin · · Score: 1

      Ignoring the fact that he didn't call it a feature...

      It IS a feature. It blocks popups and has a whitelist for those you DO want to see. Prior to this feature, they popped up whether you wanted them to or not. The only way you could call ed it a 'lack of a feature' is if they removed the ability to have popups altogether.

      Please, put some thought into your future trolling.

      --
      "If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you." - DM
    5. Re:Hardly free by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But if I copy by hand the complete works, I can release that PD, correct? After all, the works ARE out of copyright.

      If there are changes to the content such that it is covered by new copyright, then it isn't Mozart, is it, and they are guilty of misrepresentation and mis-selling.

      FTC/ASA/... get over here!

    6. Re:Hardly free by dheera · · Score: 1

      free of charger is all many people care about. i'm a student, not a music student, but play the piano and violin for fun. i don't generally perform or anything, but continue learning music just for fun. that makes this very worthwhile.

    7. Re:Hardly free by ajs318 · · Score: 1

      The internet without pop-ups is better than the internet with pop-ups. Therefore, pop-up blocking is a feature.

      --
      Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
  32. Evaluate freeness by mattr · · Score: 1, Troll

    They admit the works of Mozart are in the public domain but not the scanned images of the music.
    They admit $400,000 was paid to purchase the rights to the edition, which is being put online "for free" by two foundations, but they still require that anybody not accessing solely for themselves (and I would assume this includes teachers and orchestras in this too) may not use it, but instead must purchase from a "authorized" vendor.
    These are not nice people who from one side of their mouths say they are doing a public service while from the other side they force you to lie basically, if you want to share it with others. People who pay for the rights to publish online and say they are a foundation (perhaps with tax breaks?) however choose to manufacture this crazy idea that "Mozart's works" can mean something other than sheet music on paper.
    I haven't seen info about Lilypond on their site, nor that they are encouraging or allowing rearrangement. It seems more likely that some people in the organization are altruistic and others are quite nasty and warping the project.
    Someone should press them to put a creative commons liscense on it or just make it free.
    The past year was Mozart's anniversary and to commemorate it these jerks are claiming title. If they really want to share Mozart they should free the scores and pay orchestras to perform it for an online repository like one that was recently featured. Then they could get around to soliciting free translations of the site, providing scholarly info to the wikipedia, networking mozart scholars and performers, etc. I am quite skeptical of this. That said of course I'm going to check out their sheet music and compare to others when I get a chance perhaps someone more expert can actually talk about this area.

    1. Re:Evaluate freeness by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      You seem to think that the Internationale Stiftung Mozarteum and the other group purposefully imposed this restriction on the scores. I beg to differ. It is much more likely that it is Barenreiter that imposed this restriction. I cannot imagine that they would sell all the rights to the Neue Mozart-Ausgabe for a mere $400,000; it is the result of more than 35 years of research by many musicologists. I highly doubt $400,000 would even cover a third of the cost to hire these musicologists.

      > I haven't seen info about Lilypond on their site, nor that they are encouraging or allowing rearrangement.

      There is no reason whatsoever why they would mention Lilypond. I mean no disrespect to the Lilypond devs, but Lilypond is still years away from being able to be used professionally. Just check out Finale and the amount of functions that it has under its belt. To us professional musicians, a score is like a painting: everything *must* be in the exact place it is. There can be no compromises. If a software does not allow the freedom of basically placing any symbol in any position on the page, and even allowing the creation of completely new symbols, then it is not good enough. What Finale (and Sibelius) does well is present all this freedom in enough of a user-friendly way for people to actually use it.

      Also, classical musicians are generally ambivalent towards rearrangement, and most musicologists would probably be against rearrangement. This is not a sign of arrogance as much as just a generally accepted practice, arising from late 19th century ideas regarding music (which would have be completely classical back then).

    2. Re:Evaluate freeness by timeOday · · Score: 1
      They admit $400,000 was paid to purchase the rights to the edition, which is being put online "for free" by two foundations, but they still require that anybody not accessing solely for themselves (and I would assume this includes teachers and orchestras in this too) may not use it, but instead must purchase from a "authorized" vendor. These are not nice people who from one side of their mouths say they are doing a public service while from the other side they force you to lie basically, if you want to share it with others.
      But if they only purchased the online publishing rights, they can't grant you public performance rights, not because they're meanies but because they can't confer rights they don't have.
    3. Re:Evaluate freeness by MostAwesomeDude · · Score: 1

      Finale is a headache to use and a travesty to the original designers of Postscript. Lilypond actually makes a serious attempt to reproduce music with good fonts and human spacing. I have seen too many ideas slaughtered by Finale's incredibly bad spacing. Both Finale and Lilypond allow you to precisely place things. Just because Finale has a better GUI than Lilypond's (GNU Denemo isn't all that hot...) does not mean that it is magically better somehow.

      As a professional musician, I cannot seriously recommend Finale to anyone. A piece of music is like a painting, and Finale's music looks like machine-generated code, with no human touches whatsoever.

      --
      ~ C.
    4. Re:Evaluate freeness by mattr · · Score: 1

      Hello,

      Thank you very much for your insight, I am open to learning. I had no idea it cost that much money to do the necessary scholarship. I suppose the basic fact of that scholarship becoming visible online in any form is fabulous, and no drm it seems to be on an honor system.

      Of course you may be quite right as to who imposed the restriction. I really don't have enough experience buying sheet music for professional purposes to be qualified to say anything, having mainly bought music in small shops just for myself. However the project seems to have gotten a lot of PR as putting the music for free on the net, which it is not, and it would seem to put online Mozart into a gray area where you have to check what edition it is and if you are legal. That is the part that concerns me.

      For example it can't I suppose be used on the $100 PC project for education can it? Is the line drawn when you take money for your performance? Anyway I don't mean to harangue you personally but I am curious about whether there is in fact a musical difference between this edition of a given work and other editions. That is, if you are performing a work, it seems to me that you are in fact performing the work that is in public domain I believe and not necessarily a copyrighted score, unless the score is materially different (i.e. different notes/timing) from the public domain work. It is quite confusing. Thank you also for the information about Finale.

      I am not an accomplished musician though I once did some due diligence re Finale and Sibelius and am somewhat familiar with the software. As for arrangement a cat got my tongue, I meant transposition (as I have transposed for guitar, though another poster did say arrangement for his daughter, which of course is the only kind of allowed
      use for this online collection). As most people think things they see online are free I am perplexed as to whether this is good (teaching an honor system to be used might in the long run be very good for artists and scholars) or bad (see above).

      I appreciate your comments, thank you very much.

      Matt

    5. Re:Evaluate freeness by mattr · · Score: 1

      Hi, and thanks for your comment!

      I responded more in depth to the first respondent, please see this reply. I admit that I do not have professional musical experience nor was I aware of the depth of scholarship involved. I would like to know if a score in this edition is different from that of another edition.

      In other words, if the scholarship is detachable from the score itself, i.e. it is a scholarly commentary but the two scores are identical (being the notes Mozart in fact wrote), then as they say the original work is in public domain and there are no performance rights to grant. If the score is in fact materially different (different notes, etc.) then that is a different story. However it is still not a matter of performance rights, I have a feeling, but a matter of using a score in a commercial setting (if you are taking money for using that score). I find it hard to believe that scholarship will generate a new artistic work that is farther divergent from the original penned by Mozart than what is out there. Therefore, of course the idea of performance rights is ludicrous, and their claims should be of limited force.

      The only argument I can see is if you lie and download a work to sell it. It concerns me that this will create a gray zone where students and teachers will have to theorize about whether they are legal or not, but as I understand it the amount of effort that went into it is very high so they want to protect their investment and potential future profits.

  33. Obligatory Flanders and Swann quote. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny
    To the tune of Mozart Concerto K.495, movement III.

    I once had a whim and I had to obey it,
    To buy a French horn in a second-hand shop.
    I polished it up and I started to play it,
    In spite of the neighbours who begged me to stop.

    To sound my horn,
    I had to develop my embouchure.
    I found my horn,
    Was a bit of a devil to play.
    So artfully wound,
    To give you a sound,
    A beautiful sound,
    So rich and round.

    Oh the hours I had to spend,
    Before I mastered it in the end.

    But that was yesterday.
    And just today,
    I looked in the usual place.
    There was the case,
    But the horn itself was missing!

    Oh where can it have gone?
    Haven't you, hasn't anyone seen my horn?
    Oh where can it have gone?
    What a blow, now I know,
    I'm unable to play my Allegro.

    Who swiped that horn?
    I bet you a quid somebody did.
    Knowing I found a concerto,
    And wanted to play it,
    Afraid of my talent at playing the horn.
    For early today to my utter dismay,
    It had vanished away like the dew in the morn.

    I've lost that horn!
    I know I was using it yesterday.
    I've lost that horn, lost that horn,
    Found that horn
    Gorn.

    There's not much hope of getting it back,
    Though I'd willingly pay a reward.

    I know some hearty folk,
    Whose party joke's pretending to hunt with the Quorn.
    Gone away, gone away.
    Was it one of them who took it away?
    Will you kindly return that horn?
    Where is the devil who pinched my horn?
    I shall tell the police!

    I want that French horn back.

    I miss its music more and more and more.
    Without that horn I'm feeling sad and so forelorn.

    I found a concerto and wanted to play it,
    Displaying my talent at playing the horn.
    But early today to my utter dismay,
    It had totally vanished away.
    I practised the horn and I wanted to play it,
    But somebody took it away!
    I practised the horn and was longing to play it,
    But somebody took it away!

    My neighbour's asleep in his bed,
    I'll soon make him wish he were dead,
    I'll take up the tuba instead - WAA WAA !

    1. Re:Obligatory Flanders and Swann quote. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      yeah, I've got that Eric Ruske disc also.

  34. Re:Are you using Konqueror 1.x? by reaktor · · Score: 1

    Yes Konqueror is quite good! Site works fine for me, too (v3.5.4).

  35. Mutopia by reaktor · · Score: 1

    http://www.mutopiaproject.org/

    Lots of public domain pdfs out there.

  36. Re:epir aew;jrasd;klf jwerioaspdfk ;asdlfkfdgpoire by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 1

    I tend to agree, although I only scanned the source. I don't dare run it on my server without setting up a proper sandbox first, and it's too late at night to attempt to figure out what "a proper sandbox" looks like for PHP.

    --
    Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
  37. Re:Are you using Konqueror 1.x? by X0563511 · · Score: 1

    Konquerer 3.5.5 on KDE 3.5.5

    --
    For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
  38. It's a compiler, so by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 4, Funny

    /usr/bin/violin

    --
    Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
  39. Re:Are you using Konqueror 1.x? by X0563511 · · Score: 1

    Please don't click this link unless your genuinely interested in seeing it. I have a quota.

    http://keleus.freeshell.org/dme-bug.png

    --
    For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
  40. Salieri by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Salieri's probably spinning in his grave so fast that he's halfway to China by now.

    1. Re:Salieri by captjc · · Score: 1

      We should attach magnets to his body and coffin and use it to generate some free electricity.

      --
      Slow Down Cowboy! It's been 1 hour, 47 minutes since you last successfully posted a comment
  41. PDF? PHP? by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 1

    Hmm... Some of the stuff looks like PDF, but is really just a huge assembly of images. The PHP isn't as relevant as the AJAX...

    Anyway, one very easy way to force a download is to run Firefox without the Acrobat plugin. I use a 64-bit Firefox, but you can probably do this with a portable Firefox, or by temporarily renaming/removing the acrobat plugin dll (or so) from your Firefox plugin dir. Make sure your download settings don't automatically open Acrobat, then simply go to one of these pages. It'll prompt you with a choice to either open Acrobat or save the file.

    You could also try clicking on the document and hitting shift+ctrl+s. On my Linux Acrobat Reader, at least when standing alone, this is the keyboard shortcut for File->Save a Copy. (I don't use the plugin much because I like my 64-bit Firefox, and acroread is 32-bit, but this might work from inside the browser.)

    Another possibility is the Download Embedded extension -- or "addon", if you must. Works on just about anything embedded in a webpage. Not guaranteed to work on everything, of course -- a lot of Flash will load other Flash files from inside the SWF, and really, a Firefox extension can't do anything inside of a Firefox plugin. But it should work for PDFs. However, I haven't tried it on this page -- it may be that the page uses a frame, and I'm not sure Download Embedded handles frames (since they don't require an <embed> tag.)

    And finally, you could just do a recursive wget, and essentially spider their entire site, including the PDFs. Then just do something like "find -iname '*.pdf'" if they're too buried for you to find on your own.

    Let us know if you're bold enough to set up a torrent, if you decide to go the wget route!

    --
    Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
  42. archive.org can be considered too. by jbn-o · · Score: 4, Informative

    Perhaps they also ought to consider uploading to The Internet Archive which would help them offload the bandwidth burden. The Internet Archive carries a wide variety of works under a variety of licenses.

    1. Re:archive.org can be considered too. by idlake · · Score: 2, Informative

      The music is not "free" the way the Internet Archive understands it, so they can't redistribute it. The music is only made available, under license, for "personal" or "educational" use, and you are specifically prohibited from downloading all of it or redistributing it. It's largely marketing for the publisher.

      For a truly free edition of Mozart's public domain works, we'll have to wait until older editions are scanned at the libraries. But it's going to happen.

    2. Re:archive.org can be considered too. by GeffDE · · Score: 5, Informative

      As a musician, let me tell you that music is not like software. This music is truly free because, well, you don't need to buy it. There is nothing in the license that says you cannot perform it; there is nothing in the license that says you cannot charge people to listen to your performance. For what it is, a publication of sheet music for free, it is an amazing thing because sheet music is usually a very expensive thing. Additionally, the editing house that produced this edition (Bärenreiter) is almost universally regarded as the best and is therefore the most expensive. The complete score for the Mozart requiem (something I use only because I need to pick one up) normally costs 120.00 euros. That is a fat wad of cash, and now something I don't need to spend.

      This is intended for musicians who want to play or for teachers who want to use Mozart as examples in their class (instead of copying out of books, which is technically illegal, but widely done because how else are you going to conveniently give students something that they can look at and analyze and learn from?). In those cases, there would be no reason to need to download the whole thing or redistribute it. If you will accept the poor analogy, sheet music is like source code; when you learn is and perform it, it's like compiling it. Here, these people are giving out the source code, but they are making sure that the only place the source code is gotten from is their website. The license is no more onerous than the GPL; there are conditions that you must accept if you want to download and use it.

      --
      It has been a nervous year, with people beginning to feel like Christian Scientists with appendicitis.
    3. Re:archive.org can be considered too. by jbn-o · · Score: 1

      How does any of this have any bearing on where these files are distributed from--the Internet Archive's servers or NMA's servers?

    4. Re:archive.org can be considered too. by jbn-o · · Score: 1

      While I'm perfectly willing to admit that NMA has considered and rejected the use of archive.org (the Internet Archive or "IA"), I don't think those are good reasons to reject the IA.

      IA only requires that a work be distributable by them gratis. They are currently implicitly licensed to distribute a number of restrictively licensed works. One example is the episodes of the show Democracy Now! which carry no license at all (either in the files' metadata or in the IA boilerplate webpage). Thus, the default of copyright applies and that default is (broadly speaking) no copying, no derivative works, no distribution, and no public performance or display allowed.

      Personal or educational use can't be enforced on a computer. So, NMA can't do this job any better or worse than IA by distributing these files from NMA's own servers. So that's not a reason to reject using IA.

      This leaves NMA's "wholesale downloading" prohibition to reckon with. It is somewhat technically enforcible (not against anyone reading /. who is probably more technically capable than a lot of people online) but, I'd argue, ultimately silly in light of the public interest for these works and NMA's apparently inadequate service.

      NMA could license the IA to redistribute these files, and NMA can rescind their "wholesale downloading" prohibition in exchange for saving themselves a lot of money on bandwidth and servers. We shouldn't consider NMA's license as if it is immutable; it's completely their own and therefore it can be changed. So, instead of being "overwhelmed" by the interest, as the NMA website says, NMA can give the user a little more freedom in exchange for obtaining more bandwidth. Hence, archive.org is not so easily rejected.

      It seems foolish to me to pay for server logs and an opportunity to technologically enforce the no "wholesale downloading" clause of NMA's (overly restrictive) license while telling users why their requests for license-abiding downloads are sometimes failing.

    5. Re:archive.org can be considered too. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The license is no more onerous than the GPL; there are conditions that you must accept if you want to download and use it.

      The GPL is NOT a user license. It is a distribution license. You never need to accept anything to download or use something under the GPL. Same for the LGPL. They give you rights you didn't have, and that can't plausibly be called onerous.

      Yes, you've likely seen programs that put up the GPL and tell you to click Accept, like it is a user license. The people that make those programs are apparently idiots, haven't read their own license (kind of goes under "idiot" to me), or have chosen to discredit the GPL to users.

    6. Re:archive.org can be considered too. by GeffDE · · Score: 1

      Point taken about the GPL. However, this license says nothing about playing the music, which is what musicians care about. They are free to freely download the music and even use it in performances they charge for. It sounds roughly analogous to the GPL (or maybe BSD license?) in that you can download for free and use it in stuff (i.e. musical concerts or recordings) that you charge money for, but do not need to pay royalties or anything on it. Music and software aren't the same so the one doesn't map conformally onto the other, but the basic idea is the same.

      --
      It has been a nervous year, with people beginning to feel like Christian Scientists with appendicitis.
    7. Re:archive.org can be considered too. by Dabido · · Score: 1

      'instead of copying out of books, which is technically illegal, but widely done because how else are you going to conveniently give students something that they can look at and analyze and learn from?'

      I'm not sure about your countries copyright, but I'm pretty sure that most countries have a Fair Use clause which allows up to 10% of any manuscript to be copied for educational use. [I know my country does].

      --
      Sure enough, the cow costume was hanging up next to the superhero outfit and sailors uniform. (S,Spud)
  43. That's not really "free"... On the other hand... by RockyMountain · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is not how music should be treated 200 years after a composer's death, in particular in the day and age of the Internet.

    I agree. And I'd like as much as the next person to see the complete Mozart truly free, "as in speech". But that does not negate the fact that this is a very significant event. I agree that it isn't free as in "free speech", only as in "free beer".
    But before today, it was free in neither sense.


    This is still a HUGE step in the right direction. As a violinist, for all practical purposes, I have the complete Mozart available to me. Even if I can't perform from these scores in public (I don't know if that's the case, just guessing), at least I can _get_ these scores. I can practice them. I can study them. I can even memorize them. And for the tiny percentage that I even want to perform in public, my orchestera will still have to pay up to rent the scores, as they've always done.

    Well, geez, you already could copy the music under those principles before.

    You'd first have to get your hands on them.

    Sure, you can argue that my rights under copyright haven't changed, versus previously-available versions. I could, under "fair use", xerox a printed edition that I'd purchassed, and use it in the same way that I can now use a download from this site. True in theory, but I'd still have to pony up literally hundreds of dollars for a half-decent edition of a complete score for a major work such as a symphony. In practice, it was prohibitively expensive to get your hands on this stuff before today, and impossible in a lot of cases. Now, it's a mouse click away.

    And before you remind me of Mutopia and others, just take a browse through them. Mutopia, for example, has about 60 hits for Mozart. Even if we assume each one is a complete score to a unique opus in original instrumentation, with all parts included -- a highly optimistic assumption! -- that's still less than 10% of Mozart's works.

    This is a _big_ deal.

    Think about how this impacts a musician's opportunities to learn music. Right now, if I hear a piece that I like, there's essentially no way to just take a look at the score, play with it for a few hours. Decide whether it's right for me and whether to go ahead and purchase the score. Before I can see a single measure, I have to make a major financial commitment. True, if the piece is the solo of a very popular concerto or work for solo instrument, there _might_ be an arangement in the local music store, that's authentic enough to get a taste of it. But, if it's, say, a violin part for a symphony, or some such, you are totally out of luck. Short of springing hundreds of dollars, you can't even get to look at it. But now, if it's a Mozart piece, you CAN take a look. This is great.

    Postscript: I agree with the parent posting, by the way. It is a shame that public domain doesn't exist (for all practical purposes), even for 250 year-old compositions. I just want to point out that this announcement is still wonderful news for all Mozart-loving musicians.

  44. Re:Are you using Konqueror 1.x? by empaler · · Score: 1

    You could've used CoralCDN if you wanted to make sure your quota didn't get hit. I've tried priming it for the image, but I've had no luck.

  45. Why on earth would it NOT be free? by popo · · Score: 2, Insightful

    How sad that this is news.

    --
    ------ The best brain training is now totally free : )
  46. Re:weirdest torrent ever? MOD PARENT WAY DOWN by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    suxx0r!

  47. Copyright by clark0r · · Score: 1

    Hold on, you mean he didn't lobby to have his copyright 'protected' for longer?

  48. Re:That's not really "free"... On the other hand.. by idlake · · Score: 1

    I could, under "fair use", xerox a printed edition that I'd purchassed, and use it in the same way that I can now use a download from this site.

    Or you could just go to the library and copy it there.

    In practice, it was prohibitively expensive to get your hands on this stuff before today, and impossible in a lot of cases. Now, it's a mouse click away.

    Again, that's what libraries are for.

    But before today, it was free in neither sense.

    Actually, there's a significant amount of truly free sheet music around the internet, not just Mutopia.

  49. Plenty of public-domain Mozart scores by waterbear · · Score: 5, Informative

    The only scores definitely in the public domain are Mozart's original autographs. Engraved editions of his music, provided they were produced after 1923, are under copyright.

    By the way, that "1923" is a local US thing. The equivalent date in the UK, for example, would be "1980" (1981 from next month...): it's 25 years from the end of the year of first publication, for the copyright in an original typography of a per-se out-of-copyright work. (And editions made by photoreproduction of a previously published typography don't qualify for a fresh copyright of this kind.) It's also worth noting that this period for 'publisher's' copyrights is set by s.15 of the 1988 copyright act in the UK and was left unchanged when the duration of the _author's_ copyrights was extended from 50 years to 70 years from the end of the year of the author's death (1995 regulations).

    Aside from that, plenty of useful Mozart scores (e.g. many from Breitkopf and Haertel) were published in the 19th century, and are copyright-free even in the US, where Dover Publications for a long time provided a very useful service by republishing quite some numbers of them at reasonable prices.

    Creating a definitive text from various scribbled manuscripts is painstaking work, it's no surprise that copyright law covers this process as well as that of purely original works.

    The copyright in the NMA (Baerenreiter) scores appears to depend on two factors, (a) fresh typography and (b) the extent of significant editorial revisions. The first factor applies to all of the new-set scores, (and where the 25-year rule applies, some of these copyrights are already approaching or have even reached their end). The second factor may possibly not apply to all works, because to produce them it was certainly not usually a matter of "creating a definitive text from various scribbled manuscripts", some of the new editions differ from the old out-of-copyright ones by nothing more than a few corrected articulation-marks here or there -- like a few commas or periods of musical punctuation. But where the second factor does apply, it will presumably be an author's copyright timed by the lifetime + 70 years of the significant editor if any.

    Like one of the earlier posters, I also don't 'get it' that a scan of an out-of-copyright score can attract a fresh copyright -- and yet, it was a private assertion of this kind (not tested in any court as far as I know) that effectively drove a set of scans of old and out-of-copyright Mozart scores off the internet within the past few years.

    The complexity of copyright provisions, and their general unknown-ness, is clearly in itself a factor that takes away people's freedoms even to part of the extent that laws supposedly assure those freedoms. It is not often enough mentioned that, in this way, legal complications in themselves limit freedom.

    -wb-

  50. Is there an easy way of downloading this stuff? by d_jedi · · Score: 1

    Too often, the site reverts to German (or some other non-English language :-> ).. and the interface doesn't seem to lend itself to mass-downloading.

    Any ideas?

    --
    I am the maverick of Slashdot
    1. Re:Is there an easy way of downloading this stuff? by MartinB · · Score: 1
      Too often, the site reverts to German (or some other non-English language :-> ).. and the interface doesn't seem to lend itself to mass-downloading.

      Any ideas?
      Ja - erlernen Sie Deutsch. And stop being such a whining monoglot.
      --

      The only thing you can accurately describe as "Scotch" is a sticky tape made by 3M. And it's

    2. Re:Is there an easy way of downloading this stuff? by dheera · · Score: 1

      Mozart's language was German, and so is the language of the foundation. While it would be nice for them to release an English version, no reason to expect it from someone who is just doing a favor.

  51. misleading announcement by oohshiny · · Score: 1
    I agree. And I'd like as much as the next person to see the complete Mozart truly free, "as in speech". But that does not negate the fact that this is a very significant event. I agree that it isn't free as in "free speech", only as in "free beer". But before today, it was free in neither sense.


    Oh, nonsense. Mozart's works are out of copyright and are free. And they are available free in many places, both on-line and off-line. Furthermore, there are many low-cost editions based on out-of-copyright originals.

    What these people have made available free-as-in-beer is the commentaries and editorial work on Mozart's music; it's just that they linked it up so inextricably with Mozart's own work that they end up putting restrictions on Mozart's work in the process.

    These people should have announced "renowned Mozart commentaries now available for personal use on the Internet", not "Complete Mozart Works now Free"; the latter is trying to take credit for something they don't have a right to take credit for.
    1. Re:misleading announcement by RockyMountain · · Score: 1

      Oh, nonsense. Mozart's works are out of copyright and are free. And they are available free in many places, both on-line and off-line. Furthermore, there are many low-cost editions based on out-of-copyright originals.

      I guess those must all be in university libraries, or other such places that are pretty much inaccessible to me... given that I don't happen to live near one. I look exclusively on the Internet, local music stores, and the local public library, since that's what's available where I live. Based on those sources, free Mozart is pretty near impossible to find.

      As for online, well, I guess I must be an internet dunce, then. I sure can't find any online public domain editions of 90% of the music I want to play. And I've sure spent a lot of time with Google, Mutopia, and others.

      If what you say is really true: that out-of-copyright classical editions are so freely available on the internet, here's a challenge for you: It's just one piece that I happen to be looking for right now, and not Mozart. But, if you can show me where I can get a public domain edition on line, then I'll beleive your thesis. Find me an online edition including the 1st and 2nd violin parts (or an entire orchestera score) for Beethoven's Emperor Piano Concerto. (Sure it's not Mozart, only because I don't happen to be looking for any Mozart scores right now. But it's also very famous, well known classical music by a composer who has been dead long enough that all his work ought to be freely available in the public domain.)

      What these people have made available free-as-in-beer is the commentaries and editorial work on Mozart's music; it's just that they linked it up so inextricably with Mozart's own work that they end up putting restrictions on Mozart's work in the process.

      Maybe that's how a lawyer would look at it -- someone who only thinks of this development as a copyright issue. But forget copyright for a minute. Think how this effects a musician from a _practical_ standpoint. Yesterday, I could not easily look at 90% of Mozart's works. I'd have to travel to the nearest town with a major school of music, negotiate library priveleges, hope that they have what I want, hope that it's not out on loan, and then spend an hour at a photocopier. And even then I'd probably still be able to find only a small fraction of Mozart's work. Today I can browse it all in one place, download it with a click of the mouse, even see works I didn't even know existed and certainly wouldn't have known to look for on my library expedition.

      D.

    2. Re:misleading announcement by oohshiny · · Score: 1

      If what you say is really true: that out-of-copyright classical editions are so freely available on the internet

      I'm not saying that. I'm making two points. The first is that, whether you personally can get it or not, all of Mozart is free; it didn't take this foundation to make it so. The second is that there are several efforts for making this music freely available, and this foundation isn't part of that.

      Think how this effects a musician from a _practical_ standpoint. Yesterday, I could not easily look at 90% of Mozart's works.

      I didn't say that what they did was useless, I was saying that they were misrepresenting what they were doing. What you are getting is a freebie from a commercial publishing house, a publishing house whose policies are probably responsible for making it costly and difficult for you to get sheet music in the first place. And they are making such efforts because they know that by partially opening up what they have, they can keep the truly free and open efforts at bay for a little longer. If you want that situation to change, then contribute to those efforts that make sheet music available for free on the Internet.

      Today I can browse it all in one place, download it with a click of the mouse, even see works I didn't even know existed and certainly wouldn't have known to look for on my library expedition.

      From a musician or scholar, one should at least expect that they know how to use a library, and that they live where the environment supports their work.

  52. Why, Why? by varghan · · Score: 1

    Can somebody please explain to me why they decided to use jpeg for these sheets? I think they can easily save some bandwidth _and_ jpeg artifacts if they use gif instead. Learn to choose your graphics format, plx.

  53. No wonder the site is bogged down by Diomidis+Spinellis · · Score: 2, Informative
    The site's design is a technical and usability disaster. It appears to be a mixture of JPEG page images grouped to look like a book, scanned documents in PDF format, huge PDF proofs complete with their crop marks, PDF files generated on the fly, and previously cached content. Opaque URLs, frames, gratuitous uses of Javascript, and botched internationalization complete the picture. A more simple design for the site would be a lot more usable and consume considerably less bandwidth and CPU power.

    Unfortunately, too often non-technical managers get to make technical decisions and supervise web development. They invariably go for eye candy, ignoring usability and performance issues. Publishing legacy formats on the web is not easy, but the result really doesn't got to be this bad.

  54. getting serious for a sec by commodoresloat · · Score: 1

    Is there any program that will do the reverse -- translate midi files into scores?

    1. Re:getting serious for a sec by dunkelfalke · · Score: 1

      most better midi sequencers will do.
      i use guitar pro for that.

      --
      Conservatism: The fear that somewhere, somehow, someone you think is your inferior is being treated as your equal.
    2. Re:getting serious for a sec by Carthag · · Score: 1
  55. Um I think That boat has sailed... by furbearntrout · · Score: 1

    Because Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart died two whole CENTURIES ago! (cut and paste bots...grr)

    --
    Crap. What did the new CSS do with the "Post anonymously" option??
  56. depends what you mean by "free" by commodoresloat · · Score: 1
    So it's "free" with certain restrictions -- not really free as in beer, and certainly not free as in speech.

    Let's call it free as in Mitnick.

  57. Oh god by Fist!+Of!+Death! · · Score: 1

    I hope that shit with the violin next door doesn't know about this

    --
    Nothing witty
    1. Re:Oh god by DaMattster · · Score: 1

      Well, if his or her personality makes them a shit, fine. However, Mozart is beautiful, timeless music. The violin is also a good instrument. But, please don't blame the violin. Blame the asshole playing it.

  58. MIDIs can sound great! by namekuseijin · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I'm sorry, but perhaps you have not heard midi music in a long time. Long are the days since soundboards came with lousy samples and no effects whatsoever: todays midis, with great samples and full wav synthesis with effects applied sound almost as great as any recording, specially works for piano, harpsichord and acoustic guitar alone. I agree String sections still sound rather synthetic though...

    If you're on Linux, use timidity++, which is the best MIDI synthesis software available. On Windows, be sure that you have in Control Panel -> Sounds and Multimedia -> Audio -> MIDI Reproduction set to Software Wavetable Synthethizer, otherwise it'll sound just as bad as you heard before.

    Right now i'm listening to Saint Saen's Animal Carnivel and even though it includes orchestra as well as the piano, it sounds absolutely vibrant and lively! Give it another shot, i tell you. I believe i got this MIDI from here:
    http://www.classicalarchives.com/main/s.html#SAINT -SAENS

    I believe the one i'm listening in particular is this one (the byte size matches):
    http://www.classicalarchives.com/m/0/00crnval.mid

    You have to get a free registration to download and that only gives you 5 downloads a day, which is kinda lame. But the MIDI's are of superb quality.

    I also have another stunning source of quality MIDIs:
    http://kunstderfuge.com/

    Free registration and 10 downloads/day. This one is specially great for solo keyboard works.

    --
    I don't feel like it...
    1. Re:MIDIs can sound great! by Eideewt · · Score: 1

      The way you've mixed fact and utter bullshit together is intriguing. While it's true that some sound cards do come with a wavetable synth these days (or more likely rely on the synth bundled with Windows), merely using a halfway decent synth won't "sound almost as great as any recording". In fact listening (with Timidity, no less) to the file you reference leaves me astonished at your lack of perception.

      A synth is an instrument like any other. In other words it takes as much skill to orchestrate a full orchestra as it does to play any one instrument. In light of this, it's ludicrous to make a blanket statement like "In these days of wavetable synths, any throw-away MIDI file sounds almost as good as leaning over the conductor's shoulder."

      I'll quickly concede that given a very good MIDI file and a decent synth you'll get something fairly good, but not because wavetable synths are some magic bullet that turns crap into gold. It would be because of the quality of the MIDI file, completely and absolutely. You know how they say that a good musician can make even a lousy instrument sound great? Well they say it because it's true. The quality of an instrument means very little to anyone except the people stuck playing them. If you play that same good MIDI file through the lamest synth you can find it's still going to sound phenomenal. Likewise, playing the MIDI files you've linked to will sound passable at best (depending on instrumentation -- harpsichords won't suffer from the lack of attention to dynamics) on whatever synth you choose.

      In summary, MIDI isn't any better than it once was. MIDI has always been fine. Unfortunately, orchestrators are no better than they were a few years ago. Don't get me wrong; I'm not down on MIDI, just on horrible MIDI files. It's a misrepresentation of available MIDIs to recommend them to classical music fans with working ears. A MIDI file *can* sound good. The odds you're likely to find this file? About the same as the odds of finding the fountain of youth. All the good orchestrators are at work on stuff like movie scores.

    2. Re:MIDIs can sound great! by NulDevice · · Score: 1

      Heck yeah. This is why people pay thousands of dollars for enormous, professionally-recorded string sample libraries alone, and you can still tell they're not being played live.

      No sound card opr even a prosumer sample playback system is going to even come close.

      Additonally, there's a lot of data not demarcated in MIDI (or in a lot of cases, even the score) that needs to be interpreted by an instrumentalist. Certain articulations, bow strokes, etc - they can be suggested in the score, or maybe mapped to a controller in MIDI, but you need to have the appropriate sounds. In a lot of cases you need to bank switch on a sampler just to differentiate between up and down bows. Since most consumer-grade sound libraries don't have more to their strings than "marcato" and "slow strings" you're certainly not going to get things like detache, spicatto, or col legno properly represented.

      --

      ----
      "I used to listen to Null Device before they sold out."

    3. Re:MIDIs can sound great! by Eideewt · · Score: 2, Interesting

      This is really a shame too. MIDI offers the potential to micromanage every instrument if you like, but so often sample libraries don't have the necessary nuance (or worse, you might not have space in your sampler for everything you want) Instruments with a fast attack can be worked around pretty well by bringing up the volume from something very low, but there's not much you can do with stuff like "slow strings". That's the sort of patch that's pretty much guaranteed never to sound good in a classical setting.

      I've noticed that some of the best synth programming appears in the music from the tracker scene. There's a bunch of people who have a very good handle on what their software can do, and they often push it to the max. Ditto for some of the music targeted at the OPL chips in older Sound Blasters.

    4. Re:MIDIs can sound great! by namekuseijin · · Score: 1

      "The way you've mixed fact and utter bullshit together is intriguing."

      Not as much as the way you mix up my words.

      "merely using a halfway decent synth won't 'sound almost as great as any recording'."

      Yes, sorry. Should have mentioned only MIDI recordings of masterful performances in featureful MIDI gear will sound great. Like in the file i linked to.

      "In fact listening (with Timidity, no less) to the file you reference leaves me astonished at your lack of perception."

      My "lack of perception"?! I'm a classical music fan and while i don't have "absolute ear", i do have good taste. I haven't said they sound "as great as any recording", i said "almost as great". The orchestra parts are some of the best i've ever heard in MIDI -- which is an incredible accomplishment in itself -- and the whole thing has a very "live" feel to it. It sounds almost as the real thing, and I maintain that. But you can certainly tell it's recorded string sounds being played in a rather limited mechanical way, thought it sounds good enough.

      I can only imagine what better real-time sound synthesis technologies aiding sample-based playback reserves for us in the future...

      "it's ludicrous to make a blanket statement like 'In these days of wavetable synths, any throw-away MIDI file sounds almost as good as leaning over the conductor's shoulder.'"

      yes, i'll agree the statement was pretty generic and a MIDI produced by a cheap Casio keyboard played by, say, an unskilled youtube musician, won't sound as great as a MIDI recording of Claudio Arau playing at a Yamaha Clavinova...

      "I'll quickly concede that given a very good MIDI file and a decent synth you'll get something fairly good, but not because wavetable synths are some magic bullet that turns crap into gold. It would be because of the quality of the MIDI file, completely and absolutely."

      Yes, but the quality of the MIDI recording won't matter if it's being played through some lousy midi player with terrible samples and no effects, which is what i think the parent i replied to implied.

      "If you play that same good MIDI file through the lamest synth you can find it's still going to sound phenomenal."

      No it won't. Try listening to Beethoven's Hammerklavier by a good performer on a MIDI player that doesn't take into account:
      * touch sensibility
      * vibrato
      * tremollo
      * echoing

      Just imagine all notes sounding like the piano keys are hit with the same force: no piano, pianissimo or fortissimo sections! No concert-hall-like echoing! And the piano timbre itself? Let's get a piano timbre which does the work justice, ok?

      It'll sound even lamer than hearing a 32-bitrate mp3 rendition of a live recording...

      "Likewise, playing the MIDI files you've linked to will sound passable at best (depending on instrumentation -- harpsichords won't suffer from the lack of attention to dynamics) on whatever synth you choose."

      yeah, whatever...

      anyway, you said you used timidity. Timidity default settings are pretty conservative regarding CPU usage. I'd suggest you try with my command-line switches for a much more rewarding experience and post your thoughts:

      timidity --output-24bit -OsS -EFdelay=b,1000 -EFreverb=g,100 -m 2000 -T 100 midifile.mid

      This will sound a lot better.

      "In summary, MIDI isn't any better than it once was. MIDI has always been fine."

      Yes, after all it's the same MIDI protocol of always. The only difference is that now common household gear finally got some decent MIDI players up to the task.

      "It's a misrepresentation of available MIDIs to recommend them to classical music fans with working ears. A MIDI file *can* sound good. The odds you're likely to find this file? About the same as the odds of finding the fountain of youth. All the good orchestrators are at work on stuff like movie scores."

      I am a classical music fan with a "working ear" and have a few rarities here in live recording like Schubert's Winterreise by Dietrich

      --
      I don't feel like it...
    5. Re:MIDIs can sound great! by namekuseijin · · Score: 1

      "Certain articulations, bow strokes, etc - they can be suggested in the score, or maybe mapped to a controller in MIDI, but you need to have the appropriate sounds. In a lot of cases you need to bank switch on a sampler just to differentiate between up and down bows. Since most consumer-grade sound libraries don't have more to their strings than "marcato" and "slow strings" you're certainly not going to get things like detache, spicatto, or col legno properly represented."

      I wholeheartdily agree. Except that sound and image computer synthesis get better year-after-year. Eventually, just as you won't be able to tell if characters in a movie are computer generated or not, you won't be able to tell the difference between synthetic Strings or natural.

      Sample-based music today is a fad, because actual real-time generation of timbres is not yet up to snuff. But someday it will. And so, instead of relying on just a few samples and applying a few post-effects upon it, the synth will simply render it in real-time, with full complex variations applied.

      --
      I don't feel like it...
    6. Re:MIDIs can sound great! by namekuseijin · · Score: 1

      "I've noticed that some of the best synth programming appears in the music from the tracker scene."

      I notice that too and it's simple: mod files come with their own samples, so they don't have to rely on external libraries lacking the exact nuances the tracker want wanted.

      --
      I don't feel like it...
    7. Re:MIDIs can sound great! by NulDevice · · Score: 1

      There is the issue of user interface, of course. No matter how good your sampler/synth is, most people are limited by keyboard articulation and technique. There are a ton of alternate controllers, but some of them are better than others (tracking on MIDI violins, for example, is a bit sluggish). MIDI control will have to come a long way before even the most powerful synth can sound "natural."

      (unless of course you don't want it to sound natural. That's, however, a different debate)

      --

      ----
      "I used to listen to Null Device before they sold out."

  59. Too bad... by poticlin · · Score: 2, Funny

    I can't play free-from-copyright-music on my Zune.

  60. German speakers buckle under pressure by fang2415 · · Score: 1
    FTF http://dme.mozarteum.at/ :
    NOTE: We are overvelmed by the resonance of this website. We regret any delays in accessing this site and are working on expanding our server capacities
    Now that Slashdot has found us, ve are particularly vorried.
  61. Free music?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    SCORE!

  62. low-depth bitmap images by Garganus · · Score: 1

    Uh, gif? ...really?
    png

    1. Re:low-depth bitmap images by varghan · · Score: 1

      I know I am old. Stop reminding me. /me goes and updates his brain.

  63. you know what's truly funny? by namekuseijin · · Score: 1

    "I'm sure Mozart is finally wealthy enough to where having his music in the public domain won't hurt him."

    Funny thing is: he was a poor man. His wife wasn't even able to buy him a proper burial!

    Something is very wrong with the world when people copying someone else's works and making money off it claim that other people can't do that with one of makind's most renowned artists...

    --
    I don't feel like it...
  64. Copying books for study purposes is not illegal. by jotaeleemeese · · Score: 1

    At least in most sane countries and localities.

    --
    IANAL but write like a drunk one.
  65. Nobody was. by jotaeleemeese · · Score: 1

    Letters between Mozart and his parents, girlfriends and sister are full of escatological references.

    One quite amusing find Mozart and his other talking about farts....

    --
    IANAL but write like a drunk one.
  66. imslp by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://www.imslp.org/ is a site that contains actual public domain editions of many of these same scores. It has more mozart than mutopia but less than this site. Check it out!

  67. Re:That's not really "free"... On the other hand.. by RockyMountain · · Score: 1

    Or you could just go to the library and copy it there.

    You must have access to much better libraries than I do. Can you name a single library anywhere other than in one of the world's major capitals, that carries the complete works of Mozart? Or even 20% of that?

    Actually, there's a significant amount of truly free sheet music around the internet, not just Mutopia.

    A significant amount, yes.

    A significant fraction of the entire works of Mozart (or any other major composer)? No way.

  68. Duration of typographical copyrights by Half-pint+HAL · · Score: 1

    Although most classical music is obviously too old to be under copyright, the rights to specific editions of pieces are owned by the publishers.

    This is true, but in the UK at least the typographical rights (rights to the specific layout) on any work expire relatively quickly, compared to rights on the work itself. In the UK this is 25 years after publication.

    So why did they buy the rights to anything? If they simply bought a set printed in the UK not after 1980, they would have been able to copy the music itself for free. They may not have been able to copy the whole cover design, and any editorial notes would have been off-limits too, but the main thing's the music, and that is completely free.

    HAL.

    --
    Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
  69. Music by Z34107 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "published copies of them are still under copyright by whomever published them" fuck them! Mozart's music is a universal cultural hallmark of mankind.

    Arranging and formatting music is extremely difficult and complex. How many people would I have killed for sheet music with better typesetting?

    Granted, not quite as difficult or awe-inspiring as composing a masterpiece. But, typesetters and arrangers do the world a great service by making the music playable - and if you want to photocopy the version they spent hours arranging, fuck you. Go get your own - Mozart's original manuscripts are free.

    You're not taking advantage of a long-dead composer, but the people who spend time arranging and publishing the music. They're still alive, and deserve compensation if you use their work - but you don't have to. So relax.

    --
    DATABASE WOW WOW
    1. Re:Music by namekuseijin · · Score: 1

      "Go get your own - Mozart's original manuscripts are free."

      You, just like everyone else in this thread, is assuming that the only arranged scores available for classical music is the original manuscripts from the composer -- which btw, in the case of Mozart is really well written.

      Fact is: if the original manuscripts survived to this day, chances are that printed published scores for the same works from old time still exist. Why should it be a concern to scan these old editions, which are not under copyright anymore? Isn't it the same old preserved books?

      Did nowadays publishers suddenly burned them all so that the only way for us to get Mozart work is either paying for their hard-earned work -- like copying from such old editions rather than from the manuscripts indeed?

      again, fuck the publishers and their perpetual copyrights for dead man works.

      --
      I don't feel like it...
    2. Re:Music by Dabido · · Score: 1

      'fuck the publishers and their perpetual copyrights for dead man works.'

      Why are you being so hostile?

      As Z34107 has pointed out, YOU CAN GO AND GET copies of the manuscript which is in public domain. In fact, you seem to be repeating some of what X34107 said: Both You and Z34107 have both said that Mozarts originals are in public domain. Only YOU seemed to be pissed off that you'd have to pay for the published piece that someone has put time and effort into making. As was previously said YOU can go and get copies of the non-copyrighted pieces of your own. Absolutely NO ONE is forcing you to BUY the published pieces. HOWEVER, if you do want to buy the manuscripts which the publisher has put together, then YOU should pay for the effort that was done to make the manuscript.

      As Z34107 has stated:
      'Arranging and formatting music is extremely difficult and complex. How many people would I have killed for sheet music with better typesetting?'

      And as Z34107 Also stated:
      'Go get your own - Mozart's original manuscripts are free.'

      'everyone else in this thread, is assuming that the only arranged scores available for classical music is the original manuscripts from the composer'

      This is certainly NOT the case. As per a previous comment I made, there are other PUBLISHED COPYRIGHT FREE versions of Mozarts works. I find it amazingly arrogant of you to tell the rest of us what we're 'assuming'. Fact is, you've caught yourself OUT in your own assumption that everyone was assuming it, when it's not true. On top of that another comment BEFORE yours stated that eventually other copies of Mozarts published pieces which are copyright free will eventually get scanned by libraries and available for free.

      As for the supposed 'perpetual copyright' you seem to think publishers have on 'Dead Man Works', in my country the copyright is FIFTY years from when published. Guess what, that's neither Perpetual, NOR is it possible to Publish something from public domain and put your own copyright on it without adding something to it. In this case, the 'copyrighted' versions have been put together by the publishing staff so that it is legible.

      'which btw, in the case of Mozart is really well written.'

      Really? You saying this based on your own assumption again? I have to ask this as you previously also stated
      'if the original manuscripts survived to this day'
      Which certainly implies that YOU DON'T KNOW if the manuscripts are around. So,how do you know if ANY originals survived and when did you supposedly see them, and if you see them, then why would you have asked the 'IF' question?

      Fact is, your first comment seemed like a legitimate question. This second comment of yours is just a troll. You've contradicted yourself by asking 'IF' the original manuscripts actually exist but also claim that they're REALLY well written. Sorry, which is it? Do they exist? Even if they do exist, you've obviously NOT seen them, so how do you know they are well written? And if they are so good and you know where to see them, why don't you go amke your own FREE copy, like what was suggested rather than ranting and using the 'F' word towards publishers who put time and effort into produce a fine document.

      As a classically trained guitarist and cello player, I've actually seen some original manuscripts (not of Mozarts work I don't think), and alot of them are old and faded and need to be kept in special rooms so they don't deteriorate even more. Even if the writing is done by a good hand which is easy to read, some of the aging effects on the manuscripts make it difficult to read. So, the manuscripts you're talking about MAY NOT be in that good a condition. So, if a publishing company takes time digging up old manuscripts, transcribing them, etc etc, then they deserve some reward for effort. After all, they've saved alot of other people time and travel gathering all those different manuscript

      --
      Sure enough, the cow costume was hanging up next to the superhero outfit and sailors uniform. (S,Spud)
    3. Re:Music by namekuseijin · · Score: 1

      "Why are you being so hostile?"

      I don't like publishers, i like creators. Publishers are leeches that live off other people's works. They are exactly like the RIAA or other common associations of unimaginative middlemen.

      In the case of publishers of music scores, the history of music makes that a lot more patently clear: they payed very little for works by the likes of Mozart, Schubert and Chopin and were at constant fights with these guys. Once they were dead, though, they start publishing and republishing and publishing musical theorists' take on the score and so on. They got rich and yet negleted their main artists some real source of income which in turn could well have made them live a little longer.

      I truly hate middlemen with a passion.

      "As Z34107 has pointed out, YOU CAN GO AND GET copies of the manuscript which is in public domain."

      Again i repeat: you can also get fully arranged musical scores from the 19th century for said works. And they are not under copyright!

      "Only YOU seemed to be pissed off that you'd have to pay for the published piece that someone has put time and effort into making."

      The only person who did put "real time and effort into making" was Mozart, and he died poor because of the leeches of the day. Other just copied and recopied from yet others.

      "As Z34107 has stated:
      'Arranging and formatting music is extremely difficult and complex. How many people would I have killed for sheet music with better typesetting?'"

      It's not so difficult when you've had a few centuries worth of others previous typesettings from where to copy.

      "And as Z34107 Also stated:
      'Go get your own - Mozart's original manuscripts are free.'"

      Keep repeating the same lie. As i said, it's not just original manuscripts, but also non-copyrighted, old versions of printed and published scores are also available.

      "Fact is, you've caught yourself OUT in your own assumption that everyone was assuming it, when it's not true."

      if it's not true, why you keep insisting on the original manuscripts thing?

      "'which btw, in the case of Mozart is really well written.'

      Really? You saying this based on your own assumption again?"

      No, on others opinions. People who've had access to them.

      But you may see for yourself:
      http://www.mcq.org/presse/images/partition_gp.jpg
      context:
      http://www.mcq.org/presse/aahypersymphonique.html

      "I have to ask this as you previously also stated 'if the original manuscripts survived to this day' Which certainly implies that YOU DON'T KNOW if the manuscripts are around."

      No. I said "if the original manuscripts survived to this day, chances are printed published versions also did". I know they survived, i was merely doing some logic-like statement here. I meant: "the original manuscripts survived, so surely a few printed published copies survived as well, since there were a lot more of those, even from much closer a time as in the 1800s."

      Do you think publishers have to really go through the original manuscripts to republish work? Bible publishers go through the original Moses and Jesus followers manuscripts or they simply republish from previously published printed works? same for Shakespeare...

      if it's some obscure little melodic Mozart clarinet line written in some toilet paper found in the ruins of an ancient bathroom, sure, bring on the specialists and pay them a fortune for discovering what exactly Mozart was thinking while he took a shit.

      "You make out as though you're being RIPPED off by a publishing company who have put time and effort into producing a good quality version of it, as though that time and effort should not be rewarded."

      You know, once efforts like MusicXML and MIDI integration with it get going, you can kiss publishers of classical music bye-bye. There won't be any need for middlemen in this case.

      leeches. of dead men...

      --
      I don't feel like it...
    4. Re:Music by Dabido · · Score: 1

      First of all - I said "As Z34107 has pointed out, YOU CAN GO AND GET copies of the manuscript which is in public domain."

      You said 'Again i repeat: you can also get fully arranged musical scores from the 19th century for said works. And they are not under copyright!'

      As I pointed out to you in my first post YOU'RE REPEATING WHAT WE'VE SAID! There are free copies out there! To QUOTE myself from my last comment:
      'As per a previous comment I made, there are other PUBLISHED COPYRIGHT FREE versions of Mozarts works.'
      We say there are copies of the manuscript in public domain and you turn round and say (Repeating basically what we've said)that you can get the manuscripts from public domain! We're talking about the same FRIGGin' documents which I made perfectly CLEAR in my first post! I never refered to the manusctipts as 'The Original', you've added that your own understanding. (Yes, Z34107 used the term 'Original', but from what others in the thread have said, and as I pointed out, Many people have spoken about the 'public domain' copies previously.)
      So Z34107 and I tell you to go get copies in public domain and you turn around and tell us 'why should you when you can get copies from public domain' ... Stop telling us we're wrong and then repeating what we said as the solution!

      'Publishers are leeches that live off other people's works.'

      Well, some people can self publish. But, the publishers normally have better distribution networks. In Mozarts day publishers paid very little to creators, that's why they bought in laws for Royalties and copyrights on the actual works so that the creator gets paid better and when a publishers contract runs out the creator can take their work to a different publisher or self pulish their works. The laws from Mozarts day and ours have changed a lot with most creators getting a better slice of the pie. As for the publishers not doing much, in Mozarts day it was even harder to put together a manuscript.

      As I KEEP REPEATING TO YOU, You can go get a Copyright Freeversion of these works and NOT pay the publishers of the new works. No one is FORCING you to BUY their copies. BUT, if you do want their version then you can pay for it.
      No one is forcing you to BUY the music, you can get it for free, that's what Z34107 and I have told you ... of course, you'll probably counteract this by once again just repeating back to us the advice we gave you! BUT, like I've said, if it is the PUBLISHERS version you want, then you can pay for it. ONCE AGAIN, I will tell you, it is your choice.

      'They got rich and yet negleted their main artists some real source of income which in turn could well have made them live a little longer.'
      Mozart actually was quite well off. Yes, the original publishers were rip off merchants, these aren't the same as todays publishers. You've been watchin 'Amadeus' too much. Fact is, Mozart earned a Good income and was what would have been considered 'Middle Class' by todays standards. [I think from memory they estitmate he would have been earning about US$50,000 a year or something]. As for the publishers becoming rich, like I said perviously, that's why Copyright etc for creators was bought in, to ensure that the Creators get rewarded for producing something quite good.
      In Mozarts day, the only way to get things published was by going to a publisher or mastering typesetting etc, and I doubt Mozart was willing to master typesetting, so having Publishers do all that for him was the only way. BUT, like I keep telling YOU, there is copies of his work in PUBLIC DOMAIN, so you can go and get them and not pay for the modern publisher.

      Are publishers middle men? NO, as they do actually put work into producing the hard copies etc you can buy. You get the physical BOOK that they produced, so it's not like you're not getting something material that they didn't produce. As such, they should get rewarded for that w

      --
      Sure enough, the cow costume was hanging up next to the superhero outfit and sailors uniform. (S,Spud)
    5. Re:Music by namekuseijin · · Score: 1

      This discussion has gone way out of hand, but i feel compelled to clarify a few last issues.

      "You've been watchin 'Amadeus' too much"

      yes, at least for the whole funeral and mass grave part...BTW, some people think the film portrays a way vulgar and off-beat Mozart. But truth be told it's a fictional account by a senile Salieri of a man he hated. It's this fictional jealous Salieri, in his late hour, personal take on Mozart. I think the movie is absolutely delicious as pure fiction. And has one of the best soundtracks ever in a Hollywood flick, thanks to a dead man. :)

      "Do you think it is so easy that these people should work for free."

      In this day and age and in the foreseeable future, publishing of classical works is no more. Everyone and his dog has a computer and a printer if he wishes to actually print stuff rather than just display it at a monitor. There are many efforts all around in terms of scanning of old books, musical scores and other content. Couple that with OCR technologies and XML and web intengration and classical works are to be what they actually are: a common good of mankind.

      Publishers will earn money from contemporary works. There's no more need for typesetting of classical works.

      "One minute you've made the statement with an 'IF' in it implying you didn't know and the next you're saying they're well written."

      Sorry but no. I'm a software programmer and had logic as part of my formation. It's a common logic statement (IF A THEN B), let's analize it:

      "if the original manuscripts survived to this day, chances are that printed published scores for the same works from old time still exist"

      We know they did survive, otherwise we wouldn't be discussing this whole thread. It means in logic: "given that original manuscripts survived, this implies that printed copies survived as well".

      no distortions, i just should've been more careful with the choice of words. sorry...

      "the copy of Mozarts Manuscript they have at Wikipedia, the final stave line looks like a dogs hind leg."

      yes, musical symbols indeed resemble a dog's hind leg.

      "Just copying another published version would give them a nasty lawsuit."

      Not so if they copy from a 19th century published version. Do you really think this practice is uncommon?

      --
      I don't feel like it...
    6. Re:Music by Dabido · · Score: 1

      I think we're on the same page now [I hope].

      Anyway, even with a Logical statement the 'If' in an 'If Then' statement still implies that we don't know 'if' A exists. That's why we use those sort of statements, so that the program/computer can analyse if A exists [or the value of A etc] and then follow the program path according to the result for A. But, I accept your explanation that you didn't express yourself too well. We all do that every now and then.

      'Not so if they copy from a 19th century published version. Do you really think this practice is uncommon?'
      Yes, I think the practice is uncommon in the sense that the company has to at least PRETEND that they accessed multiple sources, which still means paying someone to at least Pretend to look at sourced documents.

      I only know of one case [not a manuscript case, but the case of a TV commercial], where they got permission to use a song, but couldn't get permission to use the original artists recording of the song. As such they hired studio musicians to re-do the song exactly the same, but after the session they discovered that the song had been played slightly too fast by the studio musicians and didn't fit the commercial. They'd run out of money and therefore couldn't afford to pay everyone to come back, so they just inserted the original song into the commercial. When they were accused of using the original artists recording of the song, [and were expecting a nasty lawsuit] they just produced the receipts proving they'd hired engineers, studio musicians etc and said it was the music from that session. The lawyers couldn't prove it wasn't form those sessions, so the lawsuit was dropped.

      Because I know publishers have to something similar to this, if a publisher was to be accused of just COPYING a manuscript from public domain, (even if they had done so), they'd at least have receipts etc to prove they'd paid someone to source documents on which to base their version. [Or at least put in a note that it is a public domain version, in which case anyone would be able to copy it]. It's not worth the hassle to the publisher, so I'd say if they were to pay someone to do the job, then they would expect that person would be doing it. [After all, if some of the documents are kept in Museums an private libraries etc, they'd have to have some form of proof that the person being paid had gone to the museum or private library.]
      But, like I said, when they do just COPY csomething from Public Domain, they usually have it cited on the page. [I guess some of the less honest publishers might include that citation in an appendix or something where some people don't look, but it'd have to be there in the publication].

      As for the future, yeah, I'm hoping there is enough quality documents in public domain for musicians to use. But, if a pubisher still goes to the trouble of putting together a manuscript based on new information or new source documents, then I would expect they would get some sort payment for the time and effort they would put into it. Whether you or I or anyone else buy their copy or use public domain versions is our choice. To me, it would depend on how much better the new manuscript they produce would be. If it just adds a footnote like:
      'In this section Dowlands manuscipt does not include a trill'

      Or something like that, then it probably isn't worth me buying the new copy, so I'd still use a Public Domain copy. Something small and trivial like that, to me at least, is something I can remember anyway.

      --
      Sure enough, the cow costume was hanging up next to the superhero outfit and sailors uniform. (S,Spud)
    7. Re:Music by namekuseijin · · Score: 1

      "even with a Logical statement the 'If' in an 'If Then' statement still implies that we don't know 'if' A exists."

      but it doesn't matter: if A is true, then B follows. That is: we can be sure published printed work survived IF original manuscripts survived. It doesn't matter if A is false, because the focus of our content is B. That is, A being false doesn't disprove B, that would require instead: if NOT A then B...

      but anyway, we know A is true and B follows naturally...

      "[After all, if some of the documents are kept in Museums an private libraries etc, they'd have to have some form of proof that the person being paid had gone to the museum or private library.]"

      The problem with all these "original source research" is that after many centuries of exposure, things begin to deteriorate. Thankfully, we're living full Information Era, when it's very cheap to both copy and reproduce stuff.

      This means that next time, instead of having to physically going to some Vienna library and getting their sweaty hands on a Mozart original, researchers just click on a web link and have a copy of a faithful scan of said document. Much better for everyone...

      And just as OCR technology today converts scans from books into formatted ASCII text, i'm hoping OCR will evolve to acomodate translations from musical score scans into MusicXML notation ready to either go MIDI or printed...

      --
      I don't feel like it...
    8. Re:Music by Dabido · · Score: 1

      'getting their sweaty hands on a Mozart original,'

      lol touching an original with ones hands would get a person banned for life. They make you wear cotton gloves [if they even let you touch the document].

      There is already some OCR software which is trying to put musical scores into other formats. I'm not sure how many of them are any good though. I'll wait for them to become affordable before I start forking out hard earned cash for expensive prototypes of them though. :-)

      --
      Sure enough, the cow costume was hanging up next to the superhero outfit and sailors uniform. (S,Spud)
  70. Re:Are you using Konqueror 1.x? by X0563511 · · Score: 1

    It's primed now. Thanks!

    --
    For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
  71. Bravo! (applause, applause). by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    Re:Slashdot effect..
    They shouldn't have tried hosting it on "eine kleine webserver...."


    +5 funny, but this is /., so .2618% of the readers will get the joke.

    p.s., I was working up eine kleine joke too, but you've nailed it.
  72. Re:Are you using Konqueror 1.x? by empaler · · Score: 1

    NP :-)

    (Also, sorry if I came off as being a besserwisser (i.e. "You could've used..."). Of course everybody does not know the same things as I do)

  73. mutopia by uigrad_2000 · · Score: 1
    Really, it would be great if they released copyright free versions typeset using lilypond (an open source typesetting grammer).

    By the way, if you want to help with such an effort, you should download a piece, convert to lilypond, and then upload to Mutopiaproject.org

    --
    Free unix account: freeshell.org
  74. Re: Copyright clarification by TheNicestGuy · · Score: 1

    You probably can't even perform it. So, distribution through BT is not going to happen.

    An understandable misunderstanding of musical copyright. To make a long story short, what the IMF have acquired the rights to is not Mozart's music, which has been in the public domain for a very long time now. Without controlling the copyrights of the musical works themselves, one can't control performances. (Or the creation of new recordings, print publications, or video synchronizations of them, while we're at it.)

    IMF only holds the rights to specific editions of the notation. That's a print copyright, not a musical copyright, but it does give them the right to control the duplication/distribution of the scores themselves. Which could explain the iffiness of BitTorrent: I haven't looked at their download license, but they are definitely within their rights to deny downloaders the right to redistribute by any means.

    Here's something I find interesting, and maybe somebody slightly more knowledgeable about score publication legalities can help me out. Hasn't it been legal all along for someone to create a new collection of Mozart scores and make it available under some sort of public license? I guess they'd have to be able to demonstrate that they didn't base it on any existing edition, which would probably be pretty hard (I'm sure SCO would sue them), not to mention its usefulness would depend upon whether musicians trusted its quality.

  75. Re:That's not really "free"... On the other hand.. by Petrushka · · Score: 1

    Can you name a single library anywhere other than in one of the world's major capitals, that carries the complete works of Mozart? Or even 20% of that?

    Having the complete works of Mozart is really not a big deal. Most public libraries would not have it, but almost any university or college with a music school will. I guess if the university library has a policy of not letting in people except students/staff, that's pretty tough and certainly unreasonable (they're not that bastardly where I am, and a lot of university libraries will give cards to people who live in the same town).

  76. quatro Manos! by binarybum · · Score: 1

    holy crap, apparently you need to have four hands to play some of these pieces! No wonder so few people can play mozart well.

    --
    ôó
  77. Digg by electrosoccertux · · Score: 1

    There's no "moving" to digg if you have anything that nearly resembles what normal people call "a brain". I used to check it out, then removed it from my RSS feeds page. There's simply far too many stupid users and stupid articles. Routinely there are "technical breakdowns" of different products. The most recent on I read was a comparison between component and composite video cables for gaming. Not from a reputable website like anandtech, but some doofus blogger's page. Long story short, he said "component is obviously better because it breaks the video signal down into red, green, and blue signals." Not one mention of luminance and chrominance. Not a big deal at the end of the day, but I'm simply interested in technical accuracy. Repeat that sort of thing 2-3x per day, and you'll see why I say there's no moving to digg if you have a brain.

  78. Re: Copyright clarification by Dabido · · Score: 1

    'Hasn't it been legal all along for someone to create a new collection of Mozart scores and make it available under some sort of public license?'

    Yes, this is possible. They could base it on OLD published manuscripts which are in public domain. I'm sure if they could find enough OLD pieces they could do it. As I'm not familiar with what pieces / manuscripts etc are in or out of public domain, I'm not sure how much searching this might take, but if someone could look at some of Mozarts original manuscripts (if they still exist) or ones from around his time, I'm pretty sure most if not all would be in public domain somewhere.

    I'm pretty sure it's still only the US which has copyright which goes on almost Ad Infinitum (almost) you should find all of the pieces in public domain in the rest of the world somewhere.

    The other way to do it, is because the music itself is in public domain, it might be possible to just LISTEN to someone playing you the piece [not a recording, unless it is a public domain recording] and then transcribe it by ear. Get enough volunteers doing their own transcriptions and you should be able to get the complete works together. Someone might have to co-ordinate the project from a .org type website so that you don't receive 100 copies of 'The Magic Flute' and none of his other works. [If you get my drift].
    NOTE, this transcription thing would only work for non-copyrighted pieces [such as Mozart], you couldn't do it for someone like 'The Red Hot Chilly Peppers' whose songs should still be under their own control. You'd have to get permission to transcribe any copyrighted material.

    --
    Sure enough, the cow costume was hanging up next to the superhero outfit and sailors uniform. (S,Spud)