Do Next-Gen Games Have to be 3D?

sudnshok asks: "Last week, an article was posted where an EA executive discussed the high cost involved with next-gen game development. While I agree that sports games do benefit from a high-resolution 3D environment, do all games have to be developed that way? Why can't game companies develop 2D games for these systems? I would assume the development cost would be much lower. As a gamer who grew up on the NES, I'd love to see a new 2D side-scrolling installment of Castlevania or Zelda. I'm curious if other gamers would buy 2D games for next-gen systems."

Comments

Cloning Clyde

[tgd]

Cloning Clyde (in the XBox 360 Marketplace) is a blast, a great side scrolling platform game. I wouldn't call it 2-D in the Super Mario Brothers sense... its sort of 2.5D. You're definitely looking at narrow depth 3-D space, but you can only move in 2-D.

Its got good 2-player action, too!

I think the XBLA games are good proof that you can have a lot of fun HD next-gen gaming without 1st or 3rd person 3D photorealistic mega-rendering.

Re:Cloning Clyde

[Stormwatch]

Now that depends if you're discussing graphics or gameplay.

Metroid

[Grey Ninja]

I'm still waiting for the promised 2D Metroid for NDS. Or better yet, 2.5D, as is the case of the New Super Mario Bros.

Of course there's still a market for sidescrollers. The New SMB proved that quite well with astounding sales. The problem is that most developers are completely stuck on 3D graphics still. You know, in some ways 3D graphics are a bit easier than 2D though. With 3D, you have to create models, animations, and textures. With 2D, you have to hand draw each and every frame. It seems like a bit more work to me.

But the programming side of a 2D game is MUCH MUCH less strenuous.

Re:Metroid

[pipatron]

Heck, I remember when 3D meant isometric.

Re:Metroid

[CantStopDancing]

arthrograms

You keep on using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Re:Metroid

[poot_rootbeer]

3D graphics had serious limitations in the past and for some time required quite a large sum of money and time to render moderately complex models.

Yes, in the past they did, and that's why games like DKC didn't do real-time 3D rendering, choosing instead to leave that work to a cluster of SGIs back in Rare's server room before you even bought the game, and taking as long as was needed to render each frame of animation.

The consoles of today are capable of doing complex, if not quite "Toy Story" quality 3D renders in real time. But it doesn't mean they HAVE to.

Simple

[TodMinuit]

Most people won't pay $60 for a 2D game.

Re:Simple

[thc69]

It's hard to feel entertained when I feel motion-sick...so I guess I could say the 3d games aren't entertaining for me, either.

Re:Simple

[CDPatten]

You really missed the point here.

Development costs would be much cheaper and the game wouldn't have to be $60.

That said, I'm not sure you have any reason to make such a bold statement. If the game play was really good than people would buy the game...

Re:Simple

[twistedsymphony]

Do you think any fewer people would have bought Guitar Hero or the latest Dance Dance Revolution if they had the occasional 2D dancing character in the background instead of the occasional 3D dancing character in the background? GH probably has the fret markers come at you in 3D but they could have done it in 2D just as well. I doubt it would have taken anything away from the game.

One game genre that I genuinely miss having in 2D is the fighting game. Most of them have moved to 3D and IMO most of them were better left in 2D. I miss cool fighters like the older Mortal Kombats, Killer Instinct, Primal Rage, etc. Capcom and SNK still make some in 2D but I've never been that big of a fan of their fighting franchises.

I believe it's foolish to think that all games have to be in 3D today, I definitely think that certain game types lend themselves to being either 2D or 3D, some of the worst games IMO are those that are better suited to 2D but were squeezed into a 3D framework... just because. Worms, Lemmings, Frogger, Mortal Kombat, Sonic, etc. Some games handled the transition well (like Mario) other's didn't (like Worms). Not everything needs to be bigger and better, some things can do well just being fun and I think they would still sell well on that premise rather then one based on 3D graphics.

Re:Simple

[Thraxen]

Hell, no. Games don't have to be 3D. The Castlevania games on the DS are pure gaming nirvana and Symphony of the Night (PSX) is considered one of the best games of the PSX era. I would LOVE to see similar games in full HD glory on a modern system and would gladly hand over my cash for them. Sadly, it seems like the DS has become that last bastion of 2D gaming and that SUCKS (not that the DS sucks, I love that system... just that it's a shame that 2D games are shunned on the modern systems).

Re:Simple

[the dark hero]

I personally would LOVE to see a huge spike in popularity of 2D games. The hardware is even will suited for handling the task, and has a lot to offer a 2D game. Scaling and rotation would be a breeze for modern hardware, transparency is a piece of cake, sprites aren't limited to any specific number. There's no practical limit to the number of colors on screen. Unlimited levels of parallax are easily realized. The list goes on.

this was the case with The Legend of Zelda: Four Swords Adventure...or whatever it was called.there were amazing parts in the game that displayed a ridiculous amount of sprites you had to fend off and there was no drop in the framerate.

Re:Simple

[_iris]

Development costs would eventually be lower, but the initial costs would be much higher.

* There are costs involved with creating new content tools. Most studios develop new features for their tools to match the new hardware capabilities, but creating good 2D tools that allow creation with real-time preview is harder than you'd imagine. 3D space lends itself to intuitive controls and an abundance of places to put control points.

* Dinding developers and especially artists who want and/or understand how to finesse 2D would be very difficult at first. It is very hard to do 2D physics because often your calculations are constrained by the small geometry of the levels. It's hard to scale all 2D art after it is completed. A huge reason most of the 2D games today are Flash-based is because of the vector graphics. You don't see rich FF/Chrono Trigger/etc style backdrops in those games, do you?

* Most 2D games would require a higher-cost marketing campaign that their 3D competitors, because the ads would actually have to show the game-play in an illustrative manner instead of a knock-your-socks-off manner like most of today's TV-advertised games.

Viewtiful Joe was a fairly successful 2D game (although I think it is really 3D behind the scenes).

Re:Sega Saturn

[MemoryDragon]

On handhelds they are... some of the Nintendo DS games already have made it in the top 10 list of games with most sells ever...

Look no further..

[Anonymous Coward]

The handheld market is still chock-full of 2D games, including the new installments of Castlevania and the like that you seem to be after. It's a helluva lot cheaper and doesn't waste the 3 gigahertz processors and state of the art GPUs the home consoles are built with nowadays. Buy a Nintendo DS and you are guaranteed access to a couple hundred good 2D games (counting that the machine plays GBA games as well). Looking at handheld console sales, it's a golden age right now for these machines - the DS is selling better than just about everything else, and even the underdog PSP has sold more machines than the original Xbox by now. Bottom line: there's just no point in spending $250-600 on a new system to make games with graphics the same as a $40 SNES.

That's not to say that there aren't those games such as the Xbox Live Arcade hits that aren't in 2D, but for the most part that's just a bonus feature, and not the reason the system is selling. Chances are if it's a retail game and it's 2D it's going to be handheld. And that's okay.

2D more expensive?

[cHALiTO]

As I learned in this discussion, apparently it's cheaper to do a game with 3d models than to actually do it in 2d with decent animation and artwork (at least for a graphic adventure.. but I guess It'd be the same for a platform game).

A Shame, really. When Street Fighter 3 came out I was really happy to see it wasn't some 3d-shit like virtua fighter (which I dislike.. a lot), and the animations clearly take advantage of the updated hardware.

Can any game developers confirm this?

Re:2D more expensive?

[donaldm]

The costs associated with developing a game are getting more expensive because most modern games are getting to the stage were they require a Hollywood style budget. I think gone are the days when you could get a few programmers together and churn out a simple innovative game that would sell well. Now you have to think storyline, concept artists, modelers (both physical and digital), testers, managers, continuity, level designers, actors (voice and motion capture), ..... the list goes on. If gaming houses don't adopt the above strategy then the game will most likely be bad or mediocre at best resulting in poor sales and this affects the company.

I could not say if 2D games are more expensive to produce than 3D games but once you take all the costs into consideration then there probably would not be much of a difference.

Like it or not the current trend of gaming is 3D and that is were the money is. It is no good saying "Microsoft or Nintendo or Sony prefers/forces the developer to design 3D games" these companies are not saying this to to be domineering they are saying this so the developer will make a game that will sell on their console and a game that sells means more revenue for said console supplier.

I still have nostalgia for some 2D games going back to the NES days but those days are over although it may be possible that some interesting 2D games can come from home-brew developers but ask yourself "would you pay for them?" and there in lies the dilemma.

Better question...

[AlXtreme]

Do games have to be 'next-gen' to be fun?

The geek in me wants next-gen, 3D HDMI-enabled toys. However, yesterday the misses and I pulled out Super Mario 3 for an evening of retro-gaming, and it was a blast. Great graphics, 3D gaming on a HDTV are great to impress your friends, but this dinosaur craves for the simple fun games you can play together for a few hours and be done with them.

Now get off my lawn!

Re:Better question...

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

Of course games don't have to be next-gen to be fun.

My two favourite games of all time, both first time through and for replay value, are still the Baldurs Gate series and Total Annihilation. In the several years since these were released, I've encountered no RPG with better plot/characters, and no RTS that was better for all-out action combined with genuine strategy.

My other half is a big fan of puzzle games. She has spent many hours enjoying the games from PopCap, and spent more money buying the full versions of her favourites from them than on any trendy 3D FPS.

Sure, funky 3D graphics and a rocking soundtrack can make some games more atmospheric. It's not like there's much comparison between Gears of War and Wolfenstein 3D (or perhaps more fairly, Quake) in the presentation department. But much as I have enjoyed many FPS games over the years, the gameplay is still pretty close to the original Wolf3D/Doom/Quake model that popularised the genre all those years ago, even if I can now use different weapon types, lob grenades with my other hand, and drive vehicles.

Where I personally find the gaming experience lacking is on-line competition/collaboration. Many games I've played are no doubt much more satisfying against real people, but IME pretty much all of the on-line services suck if you're not in the US (lag issues) or not willing to spend silly amounts of time waiting around for an opponent. The only games I've ever played on-line for long and truly enjoyed were Quake and Quake II in my university days, when there was an active student population and getting a good deathmatch game going was easy. For TA, it was too hard to find an opponent of a similar skill level and to set aside an hour or two for a good game. For Neverwinter Nights, I never even worked out what on-line facilities were available, as I'd lost interest because of poor single-player. Lots of people seem to enjoy things like World of Warcraft (and I notice they've been running ads for it on TV here in the UK in the run up to Christmas), but I also hear a lot about powergamers who can arbitrarily spoil it, which puts me off trying it given the cost involved.

Of course, my system is a little long in the tooth now -- it's about time to build a new ueber-PC but I haven't got around to it yet -- so I'm not running much from within the last year or two. Do the latest "next gen" games have good player-matching for on-line competition as well as the snazzy graphics? If they do, then maybe next gen games are the future after all. :-)

they don't have to be...

[joe 155]

...most people do expect it though. I would say that it is highly possible to make great 2D games, or more old-style games with some 3D elements. Take Ikiruga (I might have spelt that wrong), a great game with primarily a 2D action mode, or Paper Mario (if you can get hold of that I'd recomend it). These are "last gen" of course, but they do show well that even in a situation where people expect 3D you can still give 2 and have people happy.

If they make it, and make it well, people will buy it. Sure some ass-hats might not buy it because they think "it doesn't look good so it can't be fun" - but sod 'em.

Re:You need an idea

[Duds]

There's plenty of 2d doing very well on XBLA.

Geometary Wars and the massively superb Assault Force for example.

gameplay more important than graphics

[reflector]

good gameplay is what counts in a game, for me at least.

something like civilization with GOOD AI opponents and simple 2D graphics would be much better than flashy graphics and weak gameplay.

even something like nethack with ASCII graphics is still very playable.

Re:You want 2d games?

[ProppaT]

Yes, there's plenty of 2D games on the DS, but I sympathize with the original point. You could do some drop dead gorgeous hand painted games in 1080i. There's so much more detail that could be squeezed into games.

Personally, I'm holing out for a true sequel to Symphony of the Night, fully hand painted, in 2d. 3D effects, sure. Maybe even 3D medusa heads and bats.

When I play games, I play to escape reality...not look at something that tries to mimick it. If I want reality I can go outside. I'd really love to see more abstract 2D games out on the market for consoles. I guess we have the new Paper Mario game on the Wii to look forward too....

Missing the OPs point.

[splutty]

The whole point of this was the question whether it wouldn't be *cheaper* to develop 2D games (I'd like an Aleste/Zanex/R-type kind of game), thus actually reducing costs, thus actually making it cost *less* than $60.

Re:Missing the OPs point.

[Anonymous Coward]

thus actually reducing costs, thus actually making it cost *less* than $60.

For entertainment companies in general, reducing costs is a way of increasing profits, not decreasing the retail price.

Next-gen games don't need to be 3D...

[Schraegstrichpunkt]

... but 2D games don't sell next-gen consoles.

Viewtiful Joe...

[trdrstv]

Most people won't pay $60 for a 2D game.

Maybe. But Viewtiful Joe came out for $40 and sold pretty well on the Gamecube. (Awsome game BTW)

The engine has to be 3D, but the gameplay doesn't

[Xest]

You have to draw a distinction between what you mean by "Do next-gen games have to be 3D?", do you mean "Do next-gen games have to use a 3D engine?" or do you mean "Do next-gen games have to play in 3D".

In the first case I'd say yes, next-gen games should always be built in a 3D engine, there's simply no reason to do otherwise, you can offer far more animations, a near infinite amount if you include rag-doll physics in your game than you ever could draw each object frame by frame.

In the second case, what this means is whilst your game is 3D, your gameplay doesn't have to be. Anyone who's ever played Cloning Clyde or Assault Heroes on the 360 knows what I mean - these games play from a side scrolling or above scrolling perspective like the games of old however they are entirely 3D.

To answer the question, there's little point not building a game in a 3D engine, it really offers little benefit not to in 99% of games however there's still plenty of room for 2D gameplay in a 3D world.

Re:Hmm?

[Stormwatch]

There's also Link: The Faces of Evil and Zelda: The Wand of Gamelon for the Philips CD-i.

Naaah - look at Settlers II

[KlausBreuer]

Remember the game "Settlers II"? Glorious 2D, great fun.
Since the follow-ups (Settlers III and IV) simply flopped, they now re-created Settlers II. In 3D.

Sure the graphics look nice - but suddenly, you don't have the overview anymore. 3D means that you *don't* see everything, that this path there is hidden by the nicely detailed 3D trees, that you keep having to rotate around... nice being able to zoom in, but WHAT FOR?

Bah.
Some game concepts work well in 3D. Others simply work better in 2D.