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College Freshmen Struggle With Tech Literacy

Posted by ryuzaki0 on from the gotta-grow-up-nerd-to-get-ahead dept.

snow_man writes to mention an article on the E-Commerce News site about techno-literacy problems with incoming college freshmen. Some schools, like CSU, are planning on including a technology comprehension test alongside their English and Math evaluations for new students. From the article: "Not all of Generation M can synthesize the loads of information they're accessing, educators say. 'They're geeky, but they don't know what to do with their geekdom,' said Barbara O'Connor, a Sacramento State communications studies professor involved in a nationwide effort to hone students' computer-research skills. On a recent nationwide test to measure their technological 'literacy' -- their ability to use the Internet to complete class assignments -- only 49 percent of the test-takers correctly evaluated a set of Web sites for objectivity, authority and timeliness. Only 35 percent could correctly narrow an overly broad Internet search."

63 of 298 comments (clear)

  1. i have noticed this strange phenomenon by treat · · Score: 5, Insightful

    At first I suspected it was because I've been doing searches since the days of archie. But more and more I've come to realize that some people just have no skill when it comes to doing a web search. I think it's primarily due to poor reading comprehension and poor reading speed.

    These people who can't do searches, they click on results where the summary clearly shows that it is not the desired material. If they had read every word, it would have been clear.

    It's a basic literacy problem. Americans have really poor literacy. The destruction of the concept that parents should educate their children, combined with an increasingly poor public education system, has left us with a generation too illiterate to do a web search.

    1. Re:i have noticed this strange phenomenon by TubeSteak · · Score: 2, Insightful
      But more and more I've come to realize that some people just have no skill when it comes to doing a web search.
      I second that.
      I know people that are somewhat web savvy, but couldn't Google their way out of a paper bag.

      And it's not even a smart vs stupid kinda thing.
      Some people just have no clue wtf they're doing.
      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    2. Re:i have noticed this strange phenomenon by ivan256 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The destruction of the concept that parents should educate their children

      That's the entire problem right there. People have come to expect that the government is going to do that job for them, when really it is their responsibility to make sure their child learns. A typical child's success learning to read or write has little to with how much money the local school has, and everything to do with whether the parents culture is one of reading and teaching, and the parents career is one that allows for that.

    3. Re:i have noticed this strange phenomenon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Have you been to a public high school lately? Half the kids don't speak Enlish, much less read or write it. With 'no child left behind' the teachers have to cater to the slowest part of the class, while the rest are left to their own devices. A signle disorderly student (that belongs to a juvie hall) wrecks the educational process for 20-30 other people, and the teachers can do NOTHING (you can't use red pens anymore, much less give the turd a four-across-the-eyes or expell him, and their parents that should be doing the job just plain don't give a fuck).

      Even worse, colleges will not take kids with poor education, preferring to enroll foreign students instead. Have you wondered why you see so many aliens on campuses? Well, that's because they are better than our failing public education system can produce.

      And the poor American kids are left in a hole with only two ways out: army or meth cooking.

      And it will take radical measures to fix this growing prlobem.

    4. Re:i have noticed this strange phenomenon by xenocide2 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Which of course is why the PTA meetings are always empty and impotent. And Parent-Teacher conferences ignored. Lets not overlook the facts, even when we can just make them up to support a Libertarian agenda instead!

      --
      I Browse at +4 Flamebait

      Open Source Sysadmin

    5. Re:i have noticed this strange phenomenon by Venik · · Score: 5, Interesting

      People have come to expect that the government is going to do that job for them...

      Sweden and Russia and two good examples of how a government can achieve excellent results by actively developing and implementing common standards in education. Parents, who themselves grew up in the TV-watching culture, are unlikely to encourage their children to read. Only the government, through a well-planned national campaign, can break this cycle. The way to a better public education system is not throwing more money at the problem. I agree with you here. I think the answer is in further standardization of curricula, textbooks, teaching and testing methods, introduction of uniforms in public schools, and a better system for evaluating professional competency of the faculty. Higher salaries for teachers is where the extra money should go.

    6. Re:i have noticed this strange phenomenon by dangitman · · Score: 2, Funny

      Do you have a link to instructions for getting out of a paper bag? I couldn't find any through Google.

      --
      ... and then they built the supercollider.
    7. Re:i have noticed this strange phenomenon by cashman73 · · Score: 4, Funny

      Yes. Google has 9,160,000 links right here.

    8. Re:i have noticed this strange phenomenon by dangitman · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Those links (at least the first couple of pages) don't contain instructions on how to get out of a paper bag. They are just sites that refer to paper bags, or use the phrase "couldn't $$$$$ his/her way out of a paper bag." So, what is the magic Google-fu required to Google one's way out of a paper bag?

      --
      ... and then they built the supercollider.
    9. Re:i have noticed this strange phenomenon by KingJackaL · · Score: 5, Informative
      http://www.google.co.nz/search?hl=en&q=%22get+out+ of+a+wet+paper+bag%22

      ...gives several examples on the first hit ;)

      --
      Perfecting the art of insanity since 1982
    10. Re:i have noticed this strange phenomenon by XorNand · · Score: 2, Informative

      I had to read your comment four times before I understood it was sarcastic. I don't know how things work in Kansas, but my mother is a third-grade teacher in a less-affluent part of Toledo. In a class of more than 20 students, it's very rare that more than four or five parents bother attending parent-teacher conferences. Heck, it's pretty common for students to show up at the beginning of the year without so much as a pencil to their name. Parents have learned to abdicate way, way too much of their responsibilities in providing a future for their children.

      --
      Entrepreneur : (noun), French for "unemployed"
    11. Re:i have noticed this strange phenomenon by mangu · · Score: 4, Interesting
      But are you any more effective using Google when you search outside your own field?


      Yes, I am. Inside my own field I have better options than Google, i.e. I have my own library, notes, etc. But for subjects with which I am less familiar, my favorite method is to look it up in Google, followed by the Wikipedia, although this order could be reversed. It's mostly the convenience in my browser (konqueror) where I can type "gg:" followed by the search string to go directly to Google that sets my preference.


      The Propaedia, or outline of the EB, the Syntopicon, the index of ideas and themes which framed the Great Books of the Western World.


      The Propaedia is the most useless book in my EB, I have never used it for anything. It could be useful, perhaps, if one wanted to start a methodical study of some subject, but that's what textbooks are for. Let's open the Propaedia at random, here we are: page 535, Division II, section 825-D The religions of Korea. I get ten pointers to articles, the first of which is 10:530-534, which is, naturally, "Korean Religion" in the Macropaedia. If I'm going to read that article, I'll certainly find other pointers to look over, I don't need the Propaedia for that.


      I would generally classify an encyclopedia as a middle step between the web and a textbook. For a quick idea on a subject, I search the web, for a better understanding I read the Britannica, for in-depth knowledge I get a book. For me, the web is a much improved substitute to library catalog search.

    12. Re:i have noticed this strange phenomenon by lattyware · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What annoys me is where people cannot search at all, you say 'Oh, check out Automatix' and they say 'URL?'. How hard is it to google the thing?

      --
      -- Lattyware (www.lattyware.co.uk)
    13. Re:i have noticed this strange phenomenon by CriminalNerd · · Score: 2, Informative

      I'm sure Slashdot is one of them.

  2. Missing the point... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This sort of topic has come up before, and the conclusion that should be drawn is the same -- this situation has little to do with technology, and a lot to do with lack of basic critical thinking skills.

    As long as US schools (for what it's worth, I don't necessarily know if it's a lot better elsewhere) continue to fail in teaching critical thinking skills properly, early enough to make a difference that is, then people will continue to be clueless when it comes to the sort of problems highlighted. Again, it's not a technology problem, but an educational one, which in fact is basically a symptom of the current values of our society and their effect on education. But that's another story altogether...

    1. Re:Missing the point... by INT_QRK · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Reminds me of a political debate that I frequently found myself engaging to defend my funding when I ran a military technical school back in the 90's. The story went something like this: "Kids today are born knowing about computers! Classroom training is expensive and redundant! Computer based training is more efficient and cost effective!" The fallacy, of course is the opening gamut. Kids then and today (first hand experience -- I put three of my own kids through college) mostly know about how to manipulate a mouse and navigate basic menus -- not the same as "knowing about computers," as in, understanding architectures, languages, logic, etc.. Trial and error in redoing questions until "Thats right!" appears does not critical thinking make or even promote. Another problem is that kids often have trouble maintaining focus on text of length greater than about a half-web page. At least a good instructor can detect a confused look as s/he pans the classroom, ask a focused question to check for comprehension, and recursively present examples, anecdotes, and analogies that eventually may wear away the confusion. I concur completely with the need to reemphasize critical thinking in the schools -- first step is to get rid of the idea of the education major and have CS majors teach CS, math majors teach math, engineers teach...

    2. Re:Missing the point... by Swimport · · Score: 2, Insightful

      ...with lack of basic critical thinking skills

      That and lack of knowledge. Hard to find subjects are best found in my experience with the "exact phrase" searches using the quotes and -minus to remove common unwanted results. Of the people I help with their computers I've never seen any of them use these. Or click the advanced search to learn about them. Most people just type How do I do X, and like most things with computers, just expect it to work.

    3. Re:Missing the point... by Descalzo · · Score: 4, Informative
      first step is to get rid of the idea of the education major and have CS majors teach CS, math majors teach math, engineers teach...

      In my state (Utah), you can not teach in a high school without a degree in the subject you are to teach. They have bent the rules, but in the past couple of years it has become much more strict. I understand that there is still some bending of the rules in small, rural schools, but it is still discouraged.

      In Utah, if you major in education, you can teach grades 1-8. In practice (at least in my county) that doesn't include math. If you want to teach anything higher than Math 6 you have to go back to school and get an endorsement. Also, if you major in Special Education (usually dual major with Education) you can teach special classes K-12. Minors or emphases you take in college can count for something as well. For example, a Spanish minor might get you certified to teach up through grade 9 in Spanish, and a Math emphasis would certify you to teach Pre-Algebra (or maybe it's Algebra 1).

      If you majored in Math or something like that and later decide to get a teaching certificate, you have to go back to school to take some Education classes. You learn about stuff like content area literacy, classroom management, and so forth.

      So my point is that you already have what you want: CS majors are already teaching CS, etc., at least in secondary schools in Utah. I think implementing that sort of thing in elementary schools would be very difficult.

      --
      I cried real tears when Li Mu Bai died.
  3. The Next Generation... by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 3, Funny

    Generation M is what? I thought Generation Z was up next. At least, it's not Generation 2.0+ (TM).

    1. Re:The Next Generation... by ivan256 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It' almost like people do thees studies so they can pipm their concept for a name of the current generation. I just assume anybody who feels the need to do that has no credibility by default and is simply after the publicity.

    2. Re:The Next Generation... by lifebouy · · Score: 3, Funny

      Generation M is a five issue (Marvel X-men spinoff) mini-series written by Paul Jenkins and pencilled by Ramon Bachs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_M/

      --
      Drop me a line at:
      Key ID: 0x54D1D809
  4. Easy. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    What is so hard about "porn -midget -horse -gay"?

    1. Re:Easy. by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 4, Funny

      It's bad for the horse.

    2. Re:Easy. by KermodeBear · · Score: 3, Funny

      You mistyped that a bit. Let me help you:
      "porn -midget +horse -gay"

      --
      Love sees no species.
  5. Too true by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    I once worked in a campus computer lab, and was amazed at the lack of technical literacy among some students. I watched one girl struggle with Internet Explorer crashing, and I told her to try Safari (the lab had all Macs), and she acted surprised. "You mean that I can access the Web without using the Internet?"

    Then I'd turn around and watch some middle-aged ladies (this was at a community college) whiz through Photoshop. :-)

  6. What about non-internet sources? by dircha · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I would be surprised if freshmen were much better at evaluating and weighing objectivity and authority in traditional sources such as books, journals, and newspapers.

    And I would like to know the criteria for the "correct" evaluation of the objectivity and authority of these sources.

    "Only 35 percent could narrow an overly broad internet search"

    Yeah, and what percent of incoming freshmen new how to narrow an overly broad search using whatever ancient, proprietary electronic card catalog system the school useswithout being taught? Probably less than 35%.

  7. Technoliterate? Pah! by Atlantis-Rising · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Sadly, however, it is not techno-literacy that's the problem. The real problem is that I know people who have come out of graduate programs who can't write a letter. When I was in university, I would easily say that seventy-five percent of my graduating class could not write a proper thesis statement, to say nothing of any particular other style that might be required.

    Let's not screw around with these modern ideas of technology- we have to go back to the basics; reading and writing. Let's make sure people can read a newspaper before we ask them to read code. Let's make sure they can multiply before we ask them to write it. Our society depends on these things. Not knowing how to find the 'start' button or what a network stack is lags an extremely distant third, if at all.

    --
    "It is possible to commit no errors and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." -Peak Performance
  8. Which CSU? by Corvaith · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Is it really too much to ask to actually write out the full names of universities? I realize it's a short way into the article, but seriously. I live in Ohio. CSU is Cleveland State, to me. KSU is Kent State. Elsewhere, KSU might be Kansas State (and is, as far as domains go), and CSU is apparently California... but especially as summaries go, I can't psychically know that you mean California. USC is more commonly the University of Southern California... but it's also the University of South Carolina.

    Nobody's fingers are at risk of falling off from those few additional letters, are they?

    I know, it's not *that* important, but it makes me peevish.

  9. Searchless in Irvine... by JollyGoodChase · · Score: 2, Funny

    They can only play games. As soon as WOW has a COBOL interface, things will change.

  10. Hmmm I wonder why by MikeRT · · Score: 3, Funny

    Could it be that most students today have no ability to critically think? When I took a Poli Sci class to see how the other half lived in college, I wasn't surprised. I was met by peers who were largely spoon-fed political propaganda and could regurgitate it, but couldn't actually rationally justify it. For me it was like clubbing baby seals because I have frequently subjected my own views to a level of introspection that they would never do.

    Why doesn't this surprise me? Because the public schools don't teach a bloody thing anymore unless you live in a rich district. Even there, they generally teach only math or science very well. There are some very worthy things about the classical education model with its three phases which happen to correspond pretty closely with recently observed brain development in most people.

    1. Re:Hmmm I wonder why by minorproblem · · Score: 2, Informative

      I don't know the stats for Australian universities but, in high school english for our final years the students don't study grammar but instead how to analyse film, book and newspapers. So while it means allot of Australians have only average grammar it would certainly benefit critical thinking.

    2. Re:Hmmm I wonder why by Sigma+7 · · Score: 3, Funny
      Could it be that most students today have no ability to critically think?


      Actually, the ability to critically think is continuously supressed in the public "regurgitation" school system. These systems train students that there is exactly one correct answer to questions, and that they have to be done in a specific method. The supression of the theory of evolution is one example.

      The only way to develop the skill is to follow the concept of He Said, She Said - find a topic (e.g. Is capital punishment acceptable?), and write two opposing viewpoints. As much as you hate the rigid 5-paragraph essay, it is ideal for keeping your two opposing arguments balanced enough. Here's a scaled down version (i.e. two 5-sentence paragraphs) of such an argument:

      + Capital punishment is necessary in the criminal justice system. When criminals commit severe crimes, they remain in jail for the rest of their life, leeching from the rest of society. Capital punishment will significantly reduce the overall cost by cutting down the number of years such criminals can remain a burden. In addition, this punishment can also be utilized as a method to encourage reformation (similar to parole) where produtive prisoners are permitted to enjoy life for a longer period. This economic advantage can help both society and prisoner reformation.

      - Capital punishment is the bane of society. The current justice system is inaccurrate with a large quantity of false convictions. These false convictions, which include charges "worthy" of capital punishment, can be composed of fabrication of evidence, political motivation, Confessing Sams, or general mistakes. A direct result of such blunders is a loss of an innocent life. To prevent such unnecessary loss, capital punishment must be avoided at all costs.

      As you take a look from both sides of an argument, you become better developed in handling suspect claims. While you may initially have an emotional feeling concerning something not being "right", this will change into being able to detect the exact arguments that are causing the problem.
  11. Objective Sources? by d2_m_viant · · Score: 3, Interesting
    Call me cynical, but I question what they define as "objective" and "an authority". As I near the end of my senior year, I can't help but think back over the last four years and think of all the professors who tried drilling into us the notion that Wikipedia was the worst source of information on the 'net, and while their arguments may hold some facticity, I don't believe it's any less objective than some of the traditional sources of information. Not when you have: The point is, adults in this nation think these traditional institutions are objective, so why are we faulting the youth for their assumptions?
    1. Re:Objective Sources? by Literaphile · · Score: 2, Insightful

      While 'normal' people may view them as objective, news agencies (Reuters, Dan Rather, and the like) are hardly authoritative sources of information in the academic world.

  12. The test by tonsofpcs · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Is there anywhere that slashdotters can have a go at the test, so we know just what the results mean?

    --
    Video Production Support
  13. the education fraud by nido · · Score: 4, Insightful

    That's the entire problem right there. People have come to expect that the government is going to do that job [educate their children] for them, ...

    Ah yes, the classic bait-and-switch technique. Government: "we're going to educate the children now, so every child gets a chance at developing to their full potential." Meanwhile, they're building an alternate set of "education railroad tracks" that lead to a land where illiteracy is the norm and 'the masses' (We the People) are easy to trick and control. Government goons take over the train's engine and throw the switch, all while proclaiming that all their schools need are a few superficial fixes to make them work right.

    Maybe if I hadn't wasted all that time in the government's schools my analogy would be more coherent. John Gatto is very articulate in his trashing of the government school concept. Be sure to read (if you can, that is) /The Underground History of American Education/, and The Seven Lesson Schoolteacher.

    --
    Learn the rules so you know how to break them properly.
    www.teslabox.com
    1. Re:the education fraud by dangitman · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Maybe if I hadn't wasted all that time in the government's schools my analogy would be more coherent. John Gatto [johntaylorgatto.com] is very articulate in his trashing of the government school concept.

      So, we trashh the government schools. What then? Who educates the people who can't afford a private education?

      --
      ... and then they built the supercollider.
    2. Re:the education fraud by nido · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Who educates the people who can't afford a private education?

      My mother's parents couldn't afford to send her to Kindergarten (in 1950's Texas, Kindergarten cost extra), so they sent her to a caretaker's instead. It was cheaper than kindergarten, in that it allowed her mother to work full time.

      Mom was bored out of her little mind at the caretaker's. With a little help from some slightly older children, she taught herself to read. But she learned a much more important lesson: If there was anything at all she wanted to learn, it was her responsibility to teach herself.

      Government schools hurt children because they teach children that all knowledge comes from a higher authority.

      Gatto gives examples of notable americans who educated themselves in an early chapter in his Underground History.

      --
      Learn the rules so you know how to break them properly.
      www.teslabox.com
    3. Re:the education fraud by dangitman · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The poor will still be able to go to school, but the schools are no longer government owned.

      So, how would the ownership being private make any difference to the quality of education? It would probably just end up costing the government a lot more money, and a bunch of shonky institutions would spring up to suck off the government teat, with little concern for quality education.

      It also raises problems - like government money being spent on schools which might violate separation of Church and State, for example. What's wrong with improving government schools? I don't see why the concept of the government owning schools is bad in itself. Privatization is also not a guaranteed cure for poor education. There are plenty of terrible private schools out there.

      --
      ... and then they built the supercollider.
    4. Re:the education fraud by jb.hl.com · · Score: 3, Interesting

      In the UK, they rejigged the NHS a bit, introducing an "internal market", where hospitals would be in competition with one another and would bid against each other for things.

      From Wikipedia:
      In 1990, the National Health Service & Community Care Act (in England) defined this "internal market", whereby Health Authorities ceased to run hospitals but "purchased" care from their own or other authorities' hospitals. Certain GPs became "fund holders" and were able to purchase care for their patients. The "providers" became independent trusts, which encouraged competition but also increased local differences.

      What happened was that nobody provided the best healthcare, they provided the cheapest healthcare possible, fund holders bought that healthcare (where corners had obviously been cut) and the hospitals got less funding because they could "provide" "healthcare" so cheaply.

      If you want another example of private ownership completely fucking up a formerly public service in the name of profit, then I invite you to read up on British Rail and its dismantling, and its replacement with a system of about 348420 "competing" train companies sharing the same track and none of the maintenance duties, where train companies run services in the cheapest possible way (usually meaning hell for passengers) and collect government subsidies for fucking up the service even further.

      Did "competition" help the NHS or British Rail? No, it fucked them up, subjecting them to undue internal and external pressures. My point is this: FREE MARKETS AND COMPETITION ARE NOT A PANACEA. If you are providing a public service then trying to fit that public service into a free market model, or trying to make it make a profit, simply will not work without some drastic corner cutting.

      --
      By summer it was all gone...now shesmovedon. --
    5. Re:the education fraud by Conanymous+Award · · Score: 4, Informative

      Finland, with its public schools, has one of the best literacy rates and most lauded school systems in the world. The problem is not the fact that it's the gummint that runs things. It's just how they run it. You can do things well or you can fsck it all up.

    6. Re:the education fraud by porkchop_d_clown · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Again, where are underprivileged kids going to get access to materials and mentorship?

      Wow. you're really struggling with the whole parenthood concept, aren't you?

      I was reading before kindergarten; my dad drove a truck and my mother was a waitress. But they still made time to focus on helping me learn.

      Oh, and they have these wacky inventions in most cities? They're called libraries they let you read books for free.

      I lived in ours.

      --
      Clear, Dark Skies
    7. Re:the education fraud by sgt_doom · · Score: 2, Interesting
      A thousand thanks, Good Citizen nido, for an extremely well-thought out post (together with your very pertinent later posts).

      I attended a Catholic primary school (this is not an add for Catholicism, as I stand against all primitive artificial power constructs) with over 100 kids in first grade, yet we all learned to read, in English as well as beginning instruction in German, French and Spanish [and there were many immigrants and poor kids in that class - I was one of those poor kids]. And, as you made mention of in a follow-up post, the older children were send to the younger grades to act as tutors and aid and abet the educational process.

      In other words, maybe it does take a "community" to educate a child.....(and yes, there exists a definite conspiratorial flavor to the dumbing down of America - anyone who doesn't realize that the reading list I had in third grade is now the reading lists at sophmore and junior years in college aren't particularly astute - and soooo many of these conspiracies turn out to be reality to those of us who read history).

    8. Re:the education fraud by bbtom · · Score: 2

      A summary of the NHS privatisation experiments:

      1. Privatise an industry in such a way that it cannot work.
      2. Watch it not work.
      3. Conclude that privatisation is the problem.

      As Hayek put it, capitalism is the untried alternative.

      I use the commuter rail services in the south-east and they *have* improved under privatisation. They've done a lot of very silly things with them, but passenger numbers are up and delays are down. A family member spent eight hours in a train sitting 100 yards from the station a few months ago. It is far from a free market though. In fact, I'd almost say it's a "worst of both" system. I cannot complain to the train company, because they'll blame the government. I cannot complain to the government because they'll say it's the train companies fault.

      Similarly, British Telecom was privatised back in the 80s as one massive business. And the UK is still lagging behind the rest of Europe in broadband speeds. It's still dramatically better than it was when you would have to wait months in order to get phone lines installed.

      I'm still registered as an NHS dentistry patient. I had to have a crown on a wisdom tooth a while back. The NHS charge about £180 for tooth crowning. My dentist managed to undercut the NHS and provide me with treatment for £116. Why? Because the way that my tooth was damaged didn't actually require a crown - one could use a particular type of filling to do the same job. But that treatment wasn't available on the NHS - it doesn't fit the boxes that are laid out in the NHS paperwork. We both win - he doesn't have to pay the NHS fee and then wait to get his payment back from the Department of Health, his secretary doesn't have to fill out so much paperwork, I undergo a less intrusive process, spend less money, spend less time in the dentist's chair and my teeth look nicer (the treatment used natural white rather than metallic inserts). Combined with the fact that I booked an appointment on Tuesday, had a consultation on Wednesday, had the treatment on Thursday and had recovered on Friday (the NHS treatment would have required about a week for them to take an imprint and have the lab process it), I'd say that private health treatment has served me pretty well, to be honest.

      And I've sure learned more from my 'private' education (buying and reading books, hacking, surfing the 'net etc.) than I have from my 'public' education. If it weren't for the fact that the US Department of State tends to give Green Cards out to people with Masters degrees more often, I probably wouldn't even bother getting mine - I'd learn just as much buying the books and teaching myself.

      --
      catch (HumourFailureException e) { e.user.send("You, sir, are a humourless idiot."); }
    9. Re:the education fraud by ConceptJunkie · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The problem is that the government solutions tends to sacrifice the good of the many to solve the problems of the few. Some people can't or won't educate their kids? Then create crappy mandatory government schools where no one gets a good education. Then vilify anyone who thinks we should have an alternative.

      Another example: You used to be able to buy little pills to dissolve in distilled water to create contact lens cleaning solution. It seems some people were too stupid to do this right, so you can't buy them any more and you have to buy premixed solution, which of course is much more expensive.

      I won't even mention jarts.

      The government can't solve these kinds of problems because it simply can't create solutions that will be efficient, effective and have a reasonable cost for all people. In fact, if you can get one of these three for more than a quarter of the target population, you're lucky.

      Of course, the government should be providing education to those who can't provide it for themselves. The problem is that it needs to be a good education, and those people who are in the worst socioeconomic situations usually have the worst schools. But even if the government wanted or could to fix the problem, the teachers' unions have too much to lose if the status quo is disrupted.

      --
      You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
    10. Re:the education fraud by Mad_Rain · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And why do we need to ensure (meaning spending taxpayers money) to make sure that everyone grows to their "full potential"? I personally don't care if someone their is so fucked up they cant teach themselves to read in their spare time. More cheap labour to serve me and less potential competition for me.

      I don't know what kind of business you're in, but I think of the situation this way: More education=better jobs. Better jobs=more income. More income=more money to spend on you and your company's product. Bonuses in that More income=money into tax system for other important things, and more income=less likely to rob your ass.

      Where does that all start? With better education, and people given some opportunities to improve their situation. There is no guarantee that this will result in better paying jobs, but even if it doesn't, it has other benefits as well. (I'm a fan of the saying "A rising tide lifts all ships.") With increased access to education, you could end up with a more informed electorate. More art. Maybe even fewer fucking stupid people who ruin shit for the rest of us! ;)

      --
      "What do you think?" "I think 'What, do you think?!'"
  14. Literacy by ShakaUVM · · Score: 4, Insightful

    What on Earth does Technological Literacy have to do with being able to evaluate a web site's authority and timeliness?

    Seriously, that's more of library science issue, or whatever you call it. Technological literacy is the ability to use technology to get stuff done. Website criticism isn't really much part of that.

  15. Re:Uh... by dragonturtle69 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I take "geeky" in this context to mean "uses electronic devices frequently", like a PC, mobile phone, or game console. Just because they use "tech" devices does not mean they understand how they actually work. A calculator is an example. Many are taught how to use one, but have no concept of the math involved. An example that would include people in earlier generations is how to calculate a square root, without a calculator. Overall, the percentage of people who critically analyze the information they receive is no different from one generation to the next.

    --
    "What luck for the rulers that men do not think." - Adolph Hitler
  16. Computers are like CRACK COCAINE by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    And just like Crack Cocaine, computers have no business whatsoever in colleges or schools. Their use should definatly not be mandatory to complete a non-computer related class.

    I'm not a ludite, I just learned the hard way, after 30 years of hardcore computer addiction. They will f*** you up. Staring at a 2d desktop screen all day will seriously dissociate you from reality, and you will lose lots of skills you take for granted. Starting with the social ones first. Staring at a computer screen for hours on end is not normal nor healthy.

    Nothing wrong with pen and paper. Its reliable and worked well for thousands of years. CD roms lasts maybe 20 years at the most. Harddrives maybe 10. Some paper has lasted 2000 years. No electricity nor toxic chemicals required. No OS's to crash, no drivers to update, no software to install, nothing to go obsolete. Portable, durable, always on.

    1. Re:Computers are like CRACK COCAINE by bbtom · · Score: 2, Interesting

      If my CD or DVD looks like it's on it's last legs, I can put it in to my computer, make an ISO and burn a fresh one.

      If my book looks like it's on it's last legs, I need to OCR it, manually read through the OCR copy to check for mistakes and formatting issues, reformat the data, and then hit print.

      Computers are a technology. They have their advantages and they have their disadvantages (storing large volumes of formatted text is something computers do very well - financial pressures aside, I'd rather have my greatest creations traded over BitTorrent, posted on blogs and stored in the Internet Archive than I would have them stored in libraries - instant, redundant, off-site backups are a *lot* cheaper than professional librarians).

      Technology has made more social opportunities possible - think meetup.com, think SMS and e-mail as a method for rapid group organisation. It may feel nicer to send out formal invitation on beautiful stationery. A few months ago, a friend of mine put together a Geek Dinner event attended by around 100 people in the space of about three days. Without computers and the Internet, that sort of social organisation would not have been possible.

      For a certain sub-set of the "Google generation" (or whatever you want to call them), the Internet has actually been a return to literacy and written communication. Sure, most blogs ain't Shakespeare (and I have no illusions that mine is Shakespeare), but if you compare the twenty year old today with their social equivalent twenty years ago, today's young'un is doing a hell of a lot more written communication. I can tell you from personal experience that what taught me how to write properly wasn't my school's English department, it was a desire to write TV reviews for a friend's online magazine. That is what prompted me to buy a writing manual and sharpen up my skills. That wouldn't have happened twenty years ago - I would have been smoking weed and watching MTV. Now, my generation is smoking weed (or using some fancy 'designer drug'), watching MTV videos on YouTube and engaging in philosophical debate online. There is a key difference there, and it's thanks to technology.

      As for books, well I'll let Cory Doctorow have the last word:

      It's true that you can't take an e-book into the tub, and it doesn't smell nice, and all the rest of it, but on the other hand, you can carry around 40,000 of them on a drive the size of credit card. As someone who owns around 20,000 books and who has put them in boxes and moved them more than once, I can tell you that this is a serious advantage. Right? The other thing is that data is easy to back up. I can back up off site, over night, electronically, to a server in Australia that will survive even if the hemisphere goes, whereas backing up books - I mean, books are printed on substrate that is so fragile that it burns when it comes into contact with oxygen. We actually use that substrate to wipe our asses with. This is not robust, archival material. This is the very definition of ephemeral, that literature is a book written on toilet paper.
      --
      catch (HumourFailureException e) { e.user.send("You, sir, are a humourless idiot."); }
  17. KnowIT by )parenthesis( · · Score: 2, Informative

    I work at a university, and we recently came up with a "KnowIT Program.". This program teaches digital literacy (defined as: "helping students learn how to use multiple computer tools effectively), and has a specific set of goals: It's been surprisingly difficult to get students to attend anything that we offer; our hands-on sessions (Quick Classes), computer-based training (through Skillsoft CBT), and live orientation sessions, are all pretty much empty. Students simply just don't care about digital literacy. They think that they know everything that they need to know about computers, and/or just don't care about learning more.

  18. Re:Uh... by Lord+Crc · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Just because they use "tech" devices does not mean they understand how they actually work. A calculator is an example. Many are taught how to use one, but have no concept of the math involved.

    Indeed. Here in Norway, there's an ongoing debate about the rather appalling math level of our school kids. I'm certain it has a LOT to do with calculators. All they learn now is how to punch numbers into a calculator and get some result.

    I saw this first hand when I tried to help my girlfriend take some slightly more advanced math. If she encountered an assignment where she was unsure of how to proceed, she would grab the calculator and examine each and every button on it, trying to find that "magic button". In most cases the assignment could be solved perfectly without a calculator.

    I like my previous math professor's attitude. When solving some problem on the blackboard, he could say "and then you can punch this into a calculator and get some number, but that's not the important part".

  19. Oh, I can just see it now.... by DarkManaX · · Score: 2, Insightful

    All they'll do is take that one MS Office course and make it a requirement for all students. That'll teach 'em all about technology! Lazyness: 1; Everyone else: 0.

  20. This has nothing to do with tech literacy by testadicazzo · · Score: 2, Insightful
    from the editorial (but it's the same in the article):
    49 percent of the test-takers correctly evaluated a set of Web sites for objectivity, authority and timeliness. Only 35 percent could correctly narrow an overly broad Internet search."

    Evaluating information for objectivity, authority, and timeliness is a fundamental skill that's lacking, and it has nothing to do with the medium used to obtain the information. Look at how few people are able to read a newspaper or magazine objectively. Look at how many people, for example, think Fox news is real, unbiased, fair journalism. Thats SCARY.

    So it turns out people are equally poor at this skill when using the internet, as they are when using the television, newspapers, books, magazines, or word of mouth. Okay, that's not surprising at all. Why should that make a difference.

    That said, this is a problem and something should be done about it. But it's a mistake to characterize it as a problem with tech literacy. Tech literacy would be the inability to actually use the technology to sort the information. The article indicates that students have no trouble with this, rather with the more traditional cognitive skills.

  21. Re:Uh... by tomjen · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Hmm I agree with your professor - but, and that is a big but - for people other than math majors, the number is the most important thing.

    I knew thought I should write this, but people need to be better to do math in their heads. An example would be the 6 question of this test from moronland that fooled me earlier this day http://moronland.net/moronia/moron/1077/

    --
    Freedom or George Bush
  22. I do that often by mangu · · Score: 3, Interesting
    People would go to Google, type in a website url to search for, and click the link


    Unless you know the exact url, that's usually the quickest way to find a site. A notorious example: try to get the Nissan car company website in the USA.

  23. Google partially to blame too by gelfling · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Google's interface is vastly richer than most people understand. If Google created cribsheets or had better assisted help that explained the richness of their entry syntax then people would be better at using it.

    Now having said that, a few other issues -

    Tech literacy in schools devolves to teaching kids how to use Microsoft applications like Office. And most of the problem with that is that MS has created overly complex beasts that are hard to use in the first place. Moreover, none of them was created with a student in mind.

    People have short attention spans. If you're going to force people to 'use' the internet for school work then you're going to have to get Google and their ilk to partner with schools to provide more elegant and faster and more limited results windows to students.

    You are going to have to understand that just like teachers teach to the test, students use tools to answer the specific question and no more. No one, or almost no one is going to surf the web to casually learn more about Rene Decartes or the history of wool. They are looking for the answers to questions 1, 3, 7 etc. on their worksheet. And if the result could spit back the exact sentence they could then write on their sheet, that would be great.

    Next you're going to have to pare down technical complexity. My flat screen TV has a 63 page users manual (just the English). My phone's user's guide is more than 240 pages. Neither of them does exactly what I want nor do they do exctly what their vast tomes of documentation say they should do. Similarly if your computer apps are buggy, broken, poorly documented or overly documented then it means you probably did a poor job yourself on the fit and finish of the apps.

    Last but not least, the general interface on computers is junk. In the broader sense, it assumes that the application you had me install is very important and has to be front and center all the time. My son's computer has so many icons in the system tray I don't even know what most of them are. Why would anyone in their right mind even screw with them and risk breaking something? I wouldn't.

  24. Yes. by Ivan+Matveich · · Score: 2

    Bad parents simply blame society for what evil their own negligence has done, assuming they even bother to raise their children in the first place. Many do not.

  25. College Freshmen Struggle with Literacy by toddhisattva · · Score: 2, Insightful

    College freshmen struggle with literacy.

    As do graduates.

  26. You can't google out of a paper bag by mysticgoat · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I just checked with several variations. The most successful was
    "find his way out of a paper bag" instructions

    Basically there's lots of info about paper bags and what goes into them and crafty little things you can do with them.

    But there is no way to google yourself out of a paper bag. Can't be done.

  27. Interface Jockeys by Vellmont · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I can't say this is terribly surprising. There's a belief out there that computers are just one big interface, and if you can crack the interface then you understand the thing that underlies the interface. Kids these days have all mastered the art of understanding computer interfaces. Since they can remember they've been the family "computer expert" when Mom needs to find a recipe for chicken soup. "geezz mom!.. just type in google.com up in that address bar, type in "chicken soup recipe" down in that other bar, and click on those blue things". Mom thinks Jr. is some kind of frickin geniuous because he knew some small thing SHE didn't know.

    Of course just because you can click the right buttons doesn't mean you know what the hell is going on. I've seen a guy that calls himself a "computer consultant" re-configure TCP/IP and not know a lick about what a router was, what an IP address is, what DNS is, what a netmask means, etc. And that'd be fine if there wasn't an assumption that you really knew what was going on. We all start out at that level, it's just most people never get any farther than being what I call a "interface jockey".

    So I don't find it really surprising that this principle translates into the entire generation (and no, I don't think previous generations have been any better at the same skills). I think the lesson here is that we need to stop concentrating on the interface, and start concentrating on how to use the tool. Teaching a guy how to swing a hammer is nice and all, but it doesn't mean you know anything about building a fence. Similarly knowing how to do a web search is useless unless you know how to seperate good sources from bad, narrow your search, define your problem, learn how to refine your search through what you've learned, etc.

    --
    AccountKiller
  28. Funny story by vga_init · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I'm reminded of the time I was an aide in my high school's computer lab. Usually the lab was used for drafting and design classes, so you'd expect the kids to have some experience with computers (if you've got to learn AutoCAD, you already know some basic functions).

    So one day the teacher in charge asks me to help one student that is trying to log in. He can't figure out what the problem is, and the teacher doesn't want to fix it until he knows what is going on.

    I go over there, and the kid just sits there, staring at the login screen. He asks me what to do, so I just read the screen to him; "Enter your username. Enter your password. Click OK." Pretty soon a window pops up that says "incorrect password."

    So this kid isn't using the right password, and he can't figure it out even though it says so right on the screen. After I see the message, I try to inform him: "It looks like you don't know your password." The kid hears this and gets angry, "Yes, that IS my password." Actually, it's not his password--the proof was right on the screen. Upon hearing his complaint, I quickly rephrase my statement: "Oh, I'm sorry... the computer doesn't know your password." That makes sense to him, and I go have the password reset by the administrator.

    True, lots of people are not "technologically literate" or whatever, but I think for a lot of people the problem is a little deeper than the mere fact that a computer was involved.

  29. synthesize? by bagofbeans · · Score: 2, Informative

    Not all of Generation M can synthesize the loads of information they're accessing, educators say.

    Even the complainant can't use tech words correctly. One suitable word would be assimilate.

    Yeah, I know I'm a pedant, but educators should know which word to pick...