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Computer Characters Tortured for Science
Rob Carr writes "Considered unethical to ever perform again with humans, researcher Mel Slater recreated the Milgram experiment in a immersive virtual environment. Subjects (some of whom could see and hear the computerized woman, others who were only able to read text messages from her) were told that they were interacting with a computer character and told to give increasingly powerful electric shocks when wrong answers were given or the 'woman' took too long to respond. The computer program would correspondingly complain and beg as the 'shocks' were ramped up, falling apparently unconscious before the last shock. The skin conductance and electrocardiograms of the subjects were monitored. Even though the subjects knew they were only 'shocking' a computer program, their bodies reacted with increased stress responses. Several of the ones who could see and hear the woman stopped before reaching the 'lethal' voltage, and about half considered stopping the study. The full results of the experimental report can be read online at PLoS One. Already, some (like William Dutton of the Oxford Internet Institute) are asking whether even this sanitized experiment is ethical."
So when does this come out for the Wii?
There are no loopholes. It's either legal or it's not.
Take two groups: One has first gone through this "virtual torturing", the other is the control group. After this, each group will actually torture a volunteer in the same manner. Would the first group have less of an emotional response than the control group? I am sure there are many wrinkles to work out in the methodology, but this would be interesting to see the result of media on human response. It should pretty effectively answer who is right (or how right each side is) in this debate.
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First off, make it a male character, not a female character.
Then ask them if they'd torture a criminal.
After the torture (for those who do volunteer) tell them that there was a mistake and that the guy was innocent. But their assistance is needed with the real criminal.
I don't see anything in the study that says that they made any attempt to find out whether or not the subjects had ever heard about the original Milgram experiment.
The Milgram subjects almost certainly had no knowledge of whether the situation was real or what the purpose of the experiment was, and probably believed that they were "supposed" to follow orders.
Today's subjects may well have heard something. Even if they couldn't have named "Milgram" as the investigator, they may have had more than an inkling that the purpose of the experiment was to see whether they were virtual sadists, and may have suspected that, despite their instructions, the "approved" behavior was to not to follow orders.
"How to Do Nothing," kids activities, back in print!
I wonder how different the study would be if the subject of the, um, shocks wasn't an average woman but some burly dude like the Gears of War soldiers or maybe Daniel Craig as Bond, or on the other end of the spectrum a child? Assuming the responses of the virtual subjects were exactly the same (or deemed close enough) regardless of appearance, how they were "treated" by folks taking the study would show a lot.
Also.. the woman in the experiment was really unrealistic-looking. I can imagine level or realism being a major factor in treatment as well.
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Seriously! Who hasn't played Edgar Allen Poe with their Sims character, walling them into a room to see how long it would take them to die. ...or was that just me?
This kind of thing takes place in another "immersive virtual environment" every day.
Test subject Andrew "Ender" Wiggin was reported to say, "It took a while to master this VR, but I'm getting better. The simulated victim spills the beans 70% of the time now, but I want to try for 75%."
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I consider myself as having more ethics than the average. I am a Christian (yeah, hold your slams, that's not the point). I try to live consistent with what Christianity teaches. More than once I have said what I felt needed to be said, even though there was some chance that it might cost me my job. Once I have done what I felt needed done, even though there was some chance that it might cost me my life.
I don't see what's morally or ethically wrong with the experiment, even with a real human subject. I mean, the "victim" isn't actually being shocked, whether the "victim" is human or virtual.
Is the fear that the experiment desensitizes the subject to situations where they are asked to obey a command that they should refuse? But the results indicate that the subject is likely to already be in that state. If properly debriefed at the end of the experiment, the subject is more likely to refuse such a command in the future, rather than less.
So can someone explain to me what's unethical about this?
Yes, they were told beforehand that they were shocking a computer program. Even so, they felt increased stress levels.
Now, is it still unethical?
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John Dean (former aide to Nixon) treats this, and more, in his book "Conservatives Without Conscience", where he helps explain the reasons so many people blindly follow authority (and why some people so like to be blindly followed). Milgram's work was seminal in the study of authoritarian followers, and you do it no justice by blatantly misrepresenting it.
At any ate, the point of this study is that some people do not emotionally differentiate between virtual actions and real actions.
"Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
Probably because of the stress put upon the participants. In the original experiment, the participants weren't "debriefed" after the experiment. "Forced" torture, actual or believed, can do things within a person who is incapable of handling, or doesn't know how to handle, stress or conflicts with their beliefs.
Ask any current or former soldier and see how they felt when they went to war the first time. Some handle it, some handle it well, some handle it very poorly, but it makes an indellible impression on all of them.
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Something I've yet to see discussed is how this will impact perception of 'photoshopped' pornography. Right now it is illegal to possess any form of 'child' pornography (rightfully so) - and there have been some defense attempts to show that the images aren't real- they're photoshopped. But if they affect the brain in the same manner... well, I'm certainly not qualified to judge the ramifications. Perhaps steeper sentences will come about- who knows... ?
And then there's the more obvious- kill or be killed- games that exist. Not to dip into the Matrix "Your mind makes it real" mentality that you see written into laws now adays targeting violent games but there may be some form of truth to that axiom. To some individuals that can not or will not socialize this may provide the tipping point that triggers their anti-social behaviour.
Interesting research. It'll be more interesting to see how the ethic committees respond.
There's a big difference: Since the participants were well aware that the subject was a computer character this experiment seems to be basically about psychological/physiological responses from the participants, while the original experiment was much more interesting as people really believed they were hurting human beings.
That's why the original experiment, IMHO, is so important: because it exposed the risks of "obedience-without-thinking".
But then again, I have little knowledge about the whole thing, so these are just my impressions.
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Of course, in the original experiment the people were eventually told "it's okay, it was just a simulation"... but they may still have felt a deep guilt for a short time, and were probably very emotionall conflicted during the experiment. I've watched some of the footage of the experiment, and it is quite interesting and somewhat scary at times. Some subjects end up begging to the "research authority" to let the experiment end, because they are worried about killing the actor. The anguish and concern in the subjects is quite obvious. (It is also quite scary how many of them continued zapping the actor, even after all their protests, simply because someone in a lab coat kept repeating "please continue with the experiment protocol".)
Though the pain was simulated, the emotional repercussions to the subjects were real. Some may have felt a guilt that continued well after the experiment. ("I know it was just an experiment... but if it had have been real I would have acted the same way... does that make me a bad person?")
This new twist on the experiment (where the subject can very easily tell that the pain they are 'inflicting' is virtual) is interesting. One would naturally assume that the emotional repercussions would be non-existant in such a case, yet this research shows that people nevertheless feel some amount of stress.
Also, "ouch" and "touché."
But it's not mentioned in the "methodology" section, and I think the paragraph you mention does cast some doubt on the validity of the results:
"For those 12 in the VC who wanted to stop before the end, 5 claimed to be well-acquainted with the original Milgram study, and therefore we cannot rule out the possibility that this influenced their behaviour. However, if we treat 'wanting to stop' as a binary response variable in order to test for differences between the proportions (using binary logistic regression) then the VC was significantly different from the HC (?2 = 6.691 on 1 d.f., P = 0.0097) whereas knowledge of Milgram did not have a significant impact (?2 = 1.525 on 1 d.f., P = 0.22) and there was no interaction effect between group and knowledge of Milgram."
In the first place, this seems a little bit like throwing in a statistical fudge factor, since it does not say in their methodology that they planned to ask about knowledge of Milgram after the experiment, and they seem to have applied this statistical test a posteriori, whereas statistical tests are only valid if the test to be performed is stated in advance.
In the second place, it's all very well to say that five of the subjects "claimed to be well-acquainted" with the Milgram experiment, but that does not take into account the number of subjects that, while not well-acquainted with it, might nevertheless have had some vague or even subconscious knowledge of it. The Milgram study has been around a long time and is practically in the folkways.
There are probably millions of people who would say they knew nothing about John B. Watson's experiments with rats, who nevertheless would be extremely familiar with the idea of running rats through a maze.
"How to Do Nothing," kids activities, back in print!
And instead of becoming accustomed to the virtual person and ceasing to empathise, many volunteers became more anxious as the study continued. Measures of stress, such as heart rate and sweatiness of palms, increased. These measures are nearly impossible to fake, and confirmed for Slater that the volunteers were actually feeling uncomfortable, rather than performing as they thought the experimenter would expect.
I've got to wonder what the participants' exposure to video games or other "virtual environments" would have on their responses. To a gamer, I'm not sure rapid heart rate, and sweaty palms indicate increased anxiety. They might have just been "getting into the game."
I remember when Half-Life first came out my friend and I spent a lot of time running around beating the innocent bystanders with our crowbars and watching them beg for forgiveness. We weren't doing it because we were sadists, just curious gamers. We'd never seen NPC's react in such a realistic way before, and thought it was "cool". My girlfriend came into the room while we were doing this and was horrified, got really upset and asked us to stop. Not being as avid a gamer, I don't think she was used to dissociating her emotions from video game characters.
I don't think video game violence numbs players to real world violence, but it sure numbs them to video game violence. Seems to me like prior experience would play a major role in your reaction to this experiment.
In something like "GTA," killing the other characters is just another expected part of the game. In "Manhunt," it's damn near the whole point of the game. But it doesn't have the same appeal as when you think you just might be experimenting with aspects of a game that its mainstream players don't, or that the programmers might not have even been prepared for.
It's right up there with "Hot Coffee." The mod wasn't necessarily popular because the crude polygonal dry-humping was all that appealing in itself, but because it was a way to get soemthing out of your copy of "San Andreas" that the next guy wasn't, and see more of your game than the company expected.
If they released an official "47 new ways to kill your Sims Torture Pack," where it really was the focus of the game, it just might not be as appealing as it was.
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Whether your "volunteer" has actually harmed someone or not, the psychological trauma is very real. That's the part where they describe the very real stress indicators. For those that don't know, the Nazi's kept free liquor flowing to the guards in the concentration camps. Why did they need liquor? Because of the emotional trauma associated with performing such vile acts on another human being.
It makes me wonder if the human subjects of this experiment truly trusted the statements of those in authority that they were NOT shocking real humans. Was something clicking in the backs of their heads warning them that they may be torturing real humans instead of electronic simulations?
Too bad Philip K. Dick is dead.
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If the Milgram experiment was unethical how is this one different? They replaced the person who was being fake tortured. The ill effects could still be caused to the person who finds out they are willing to harm someone. The person being replaced was in on it in the first place. Am I missing something? If I'm not I struggle to see how Milgram was unethical.
I agree.
This made me think of a personal antecdote. I don't know how many people played any games from the dungeon keeper series, but I used to play the first one a lot. One of the hallmarks of the game is that you're an evil character. However, as much as the ability to play a different persona appeals to me, every time I set out to play an evil character in any game I end up feeling remorse for killing innocents, even though they aren't real.
Anyway, in dungeon keeper (Real time strategy) you start out with a group of loyal imps. They are weak, small and do all of the mining and grunt work in your dungeon. They are unique in the game in that they can be created, and will always serve you no matter how poorly you treat them. The game allows you to slap creatures to make them work harder. There is little downside in doing this with imps since they won't flee the dungeon in anger and since they are poor fighters their health level isn't really important. Logically, all imps should be regularly slapped for maximum dungeon efficancy. And in fact, the computer controlled rival keepers do just that.
But I couldn't really do it as a matter of course. I actually felt bad, knowing full well that they weren't real. They made noises like they were in pain but of course thats just the computer. It was only when I was in a dire spot (doing a fast gem seam grab at the start of the map and then fortifying the walls to hold off an attack) that I would slap them, and even then I felt kind of bad.
So I can sort of understand how the results are similar to the original experiment. Its evoking an emotional response, and playing it again logic.
I'd mod you up if I had points, as this is a very good question. How many people reading of the Milgram experiment have wondered how they would have performed? One hopes one would have been the exception, refusing to be a tool of authority used to harm others. Given the opportunity to participate in a recreation of the experiment, one knows how to perform in order to maintain one's self image as a decent human being.
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The subjects might feel guilty for "hurting" someone else, but that's about it.
Spoken like a man who is incapable of the empathy to understand how believing for a moment that you've killed a man through electroshock might make someone else feel. The Milgram experiment made many of the participants believe for a short time that they were guilty of murder due to peer pressure. That's not something that leaves you to be forgotten for the rest of your life.
Neither is having the self-delusion in one's inherent morality stripped away by being pressured into committing an atrocity merely by being told "the experiment must continue" by a man in a lab coat. Finding out that you're essentially a sheep who will harm others just to avoid the disapproval of an authority figure would be a scarring experience for those involved. The damage done to the subjects' worldviews is a large part of what makes it unethical.
Plus, even if the effects weren't long lasting, causing undue stress on a subject and heavy use of deception are generally considered unethical in psychology experiments. I mean, one of the subjects did get so stressed out that they had a seizure.
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A lot subtler than me. I didn't use Sims.
When people respond to a computer character the same way they would a person or a living thing, it's a sign that people relate a bit too closely to the virtual world.
I hear people talking about TV and movie characters (i.e. actors pretending to be people who don't exist in the first place) as if they are real. People pay real money for virtual goods. However, I've also heard soldiers (particular pilots) compare real combat to video games. It seems like the line between virtual reality and actual reality is pretty dim for some.
But given the amount of time people spend on TV, in front of computers, or playing video games, this is hardly surprising.
People for the Ethical Treatment of Avatars.
When they gave the test to Donald Rumesfeld it took three techs to pry the button out of his hand. They said it was the giggling that was really creepy.
This sounds like a training aid for torturers. Attorney General Gonzales ("Mr. Torture Memo") would love this.
What do you think all the pressure from above on "getting results" and all the memos supporting more "aggressive interrogation methods" served to accomplish?
Quite frankly, anyone who's seem the Milgram Obedience and the Standford Prison experiments shouldn't have been surprised in the slightest when rumors of torture coming out of Guantanimo started and when the reports about Abu Ghraib and Bagram started coming out. It's human nature. It's the natural, expected outcome of this kind of environment, and the unconscionable lack of oversight oriented towards preventing this sort of thing and, worse, the active encouragement of aggressive methods makes the administration directly culpable for torture of captives.
At worst, it's malice; at best, it's utter incompetence or callousness.
If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
You seem to think there's unethical behavior involved in Milgram's experiment. I disagree. It's just an experiment. Instead, the darkness is inside the subjects doing the dirty deeds. All the experiment does is dredge up that evil and lay it bare before all. The subject should be joyful that they didn't kill anybody since they so clearly would have. The only patholiogical part of Milgram's experiment lay deep in the minds and souls of those who flipped the switch.
And according the results, approximately 60% of the population would have done it.
Though the pain was simulated, the emotional repercussions to the subjects were real. Some may have felt a guilt that continued well after the experiment. ("I know it was just an experiment... but if it had have been real I would have acted the same way... does that make me a bad person?")Yes.
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...when computers have been granted rights, machines will be seeking some pretty heavy compensation for this experiment retroactively. I'd hate to be the grandkids of the experimenters who did this.
Doesn't it make you feel good to know that our freedoms are protected by politicans, lawyers and journalists.
If their worldview is broken enough that they will kill somebody for no good reason, then damaging that worldview is a good thing. I'd argue it's unethical *not* to perform the Milgram experiment on as many people as possible (before they know what it is).
"I'm sorry Sir, we tricked you. That was just an actor in that booth, you didn't actually torture anyone to death."
..."
"What? You're kiding me, I don't believe it!"
"Really Sir, his name is John Row, he's a method actor from
"Lalalalala, I can't hear you."
"Sir? Sir?"
"God damn scientists, take away my fun."
How we know is more important than what we know.
As soon as I saw an electronic victim I would have just started jamming on the shock button as fast as I could until it died...just as an experiment. I would observe the response from the "authority". I'd note what he'd attribute my seemingly violent and malicious outburst to.
When he asks why I did it. I'll tell him it's the only way I can orgasm. [/Ichi]
I bet that'd throw his results off.
Milgram ran at least 20 experiments along this theme. The end result of variations in the base experiment revealed the emotional distance between the "teacher" and the "learner" had a very strong effect on the likeliness to continue. The more dehumanized the learner was, the more readily the teacher went further and further. Conversely, the more empathy the teacher was encouraged to have (say by seeing or directly hearing the learner through an open door instead of a speaker), the less likely they continued.
By demonizing the subject as a criminal, you would definitely observe a higher incidence of going too far. Demonizing your enemies is a central tactic in all societies committing to war for a reason -- it makes it easier to kill the other guy when you don't see him as being the same as you.
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An auditor would ENJOY smacking the imps around.
Mirror neurons are neurons that fire in response to what we see someone else experience. The other person picks up a pot, part of our brain that would be needed to pick up the pot fires as well. Pick up a hot pot without protection, and the person screams -- and part of your brain feels the burn. We're hard-wired for sympathy. The computer program is triggering mirror neurons in the human observer. I'd bet the researchers that wrote the computer program would have exhibited some signs of distress at the computer NPC being tortured -- even though they, better than anyone, would know that no human was involved.
This sig seemed like a good idea at the time....
Yes, killing badguys is fun but when it comes to physics and the good guy, it can be A LOT OF FUN to just inflict pain on the protaginist.
The scientists in Half-Life instantly come to mind.
WHO NEEDS SHIFT WHEN YOU HAVE CAPSLOCK/ DAMN1
You're saying that it's ethical to encourage somebody to do something they'll regret. That's a very poor point to defend. You're implying that people should have to live with the worst they are capable of, regardless of whether they would naturally do it.
.evom ton seod gis eht
Already, some (like William Dutton of the Oxford Internet Institute) are asking whether even this sanitized experiment is ethical.
The ethical concerns in both the real and virutal experiments appear quite close, as the goal, whether the "victim" is an animated charicature or a human actor screaming as if in pain (or not, as if dead), is to manipulate the emotions of the test volunteer while seeing how far he or she will go in hurting others "in the name of science."
Outside of scientific tests, emotional manipulation of course has a long history, and advertising has always been full of it (no pun intended, but if the shoe fits...). Interesting examples of such strong emotional manipulation are in several of the stories in the book "The Mind's I" by Dennett and Hoftsadter, and there's a controversial example in the UN anti-landmine video at http://stoplandmines.org.
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1. The Milgram experiment was interesting because it placed people in a situation where they know they have a certain moral obligation, then effortlessly overrode that obligation simply by playing with authority figures, the authority of science, and the like. Similarly Zimbardo showed us how people in suitable groups may sometimes do things any single man would be horrified at the mere prospect of. Wonderful, stimulating experiments. Now tell me what it is meant to show, the fact that you might get someone to torture a virtual image, without that moral sanction. That already exists - it's called Grand Theft Auto. Some people play it, some don't.
2. I am definitely not astonished that people react emotionally to virtual images of suffering. People also react emotionally to love stories and are scared by halloween slashers. At best you might demonstrate - as this seems to - that many people are quite able to impose agency upon non-agents. Again, we already know that. People often react with distress to someone kicking an Aibo dog.
3. In any case, I don't see how social scientists or philosophers would be fascinated by any results that might emerge from such simulated research. Certainly the next Hannah Arendt isn't going to be dazzled.