Sealand Put Up For Sale

antic writes "The Principality of Sealand is up for sale. The 550 square meter steel platform boasts "uninterrupted sea views", complete privacy and has been mentioned on Slashdot in the past for its offers of hosting outside the jurisdiction of (some) traditional laws."

Comments

If only I could afford such a thing

[Vengeance]

Then I could hunt the most dangerous game of all...

Re:If only I could afford such a thing

[theMerovingian]

You're going to hunt women in a jungle?

Re:If only I could afford such a thing

[Marxist Hacker 42]

For somebody willing to do the work, such a thing could actually PAY FOR ITSELF. It would make a great battery manufacturing and charging center- just surround it with Wave power generation bouys and charge, ship, and sell the "green power" renewable batteries.

Yeah, but...

[celardore]

You should know that the commute is a bitch.

How to buy Sealand for free in just 5 steps

[skurk]

1. Buy Sealand on credit, you can get a loan anywhere these days.
2. Apply for your own TLD.
3. Open up for a new domain rush, demand ridicilous prices for certain domains
4. Release the loan using the income from domain sales.
5. You own Sealand, you are king.

Re:How to buy Sealand for free in just 5 steps

[pedantic bore]

Well, I think that's not all that different from what they did... except step 2 is a little more iffy than you might think.

Last time there was a slashdot story on them, they had the business model of providing a place where folks could store sensitive data without fear of subpeona -- they wanted to be, for data storage, what Switzerland used to be for bank accounts. Guess it didn't work. They don't really have as much independence as they thought... it's tough to hold your ground when your entire country is one "accident" (or torpedo) from oblivion at worst, or a few weeks of blockade away from starvation at best.

Re:How to buy Sealand for free in just 5 steps

[marcello_dl]

Or:

1) get together with other geeks
2) make a joint offer for sealand ownership, each one pays a little share.
3) get sealand
4) enact legislation which is impossible anywhere else because of WTO, like: no patent on software, only copyright. No stupid patents on anything. There is something that can be done for censorship, to free scientific research hampered by stupid lawsuits, lots of possibilities.
5) Open embassies wherever a geek need a safe place to develop his ideas without fears of lawsuits. An embassy is territory of sealand too. SSH provides no data sent to sealand and other embassies violates any international law as it's just encrypted blobs there.
6) Profit for all humanity.

What do you think?

Re:How to buy Sealand for free in just 5 steps

[zlogic]

Here's an easier way:
1. Buy Sealand on credit, you can get a loan anywhere these days.
2. You own Sealand, you are king.
3. Create a law that forbids the King of Sealand to release loans ;-)

Re:How to buy Sealand for free in just 5 steps

[Anonymous Coward]

You forgot "4a) Actually get recognised by at least one other country". Best of luck with that.

Re:How to buy Sealand for free in just 5 steps

[drewzhrodague]

5. You own Sealand, you are king.

It is good to be the king!

Re:How to buy Sealand for free in just 5 steps

[Opportunist]

No longer possible. After Sealand, one of the first things that happened was a change of international jurisdiction concerning such renegade actions.

You don't think countries enjoy the idea of their subjects declaring independence, do you?

Re:How to buy Sealand for free in just 5 steps

[hardburn]

That would be considered defaulting on a loan. Countries have a credit rating just like individuals do. The reason the US government can have a multi-trillion doller debt is because it has never defaulted on a loan.

So sure, you can do that, but it's still going to foobar your credit rating.

Re:How to buy Sealand for free in just 5 steps

[Anonymous Coward]

You forgot "4a) Actually get recognised by at least one other country". Best of luck with that.

Simple:
4a1) Split "Sealand" into 2 separate countries
4a2) Have each country recognize each other

And now that means 2 TLDs, so TWICE the profit!!!!

Re:How to buy Sealand for free in just 5 steps

[Zeinfeld]

Last time there was a slashdot story on them, they had the business model of providing a place where folks could store sensitive data without fear of subpeona

Such confidence would be misplaced.

Either the platform is British Soveriegn territory or it isn't.

The most likely case is that the British courts consider the platform to be under UK jurisdiction following the expansion of the teritorial limits. International law does not recognize teritorial claims based on man made structures. Contrary to claims made British court has ever recognized sovereignty claims by any other party over the platform.

Ergo if the UK courts choose to issue a subpoena the subpoena can be served and enforced. Moreover since the Bates family are the directors of HavenCo and they live in the UK they can be arrested and imprisoned on contempt charges if they refuse to comply regardless of the sovereign status of the platform.

If the British courts did choose to recognize the sovereignty of the platform they or anyone else can declare war on it and blow the thing to smitherines if they make a nuisance of themselves.

The main reason that this has not happened to date seems to be that HavenCo does not have any customers worth the trouble.

Re:How to buy Sealand for free in just 5 steps

[bitt3n]

2. Apply for your own TLD. 3. Open up for a new domain rush, demand ridicilous prices for certain domains

I claim rights to goat.sea

Re:How to buy Sealand for free in just 5 steps

[anaesthetica]

An embassy is territory of sealand too.

Nitpick: embassies are not the territory of the foreign country. They are under the jurisdiction of the foreign country. So embassies in the United States are still United States territory, but they are under foreign jurisdiction, not the jurisdiction of the United States.

I remember Sealand from years ago...

[Panaqqa]

So it's for sale is it? I seem to recall at the time that their hopes hinged on making it a jurisdiction for legal gambling and other commerce that was heavily regulated in other jurisdictions. So now they want to try their hand at web hosting, do they? Interesting...

Re:I remember Sealand from years ago...

[DavidTC]

If you're spending eight digits on your boat, you can afford to spend a couple million bucks to buy some SS-N-25 and P-800 surplus russian anti-ship missiles. Anything that's not an aircraft carrier battlegroup will be toast, and even some of those won't want to engage you without significant air support.

And the second that a US Navy vessel tells you to stand down and be boarded, and you refuse, and they shoot at you, and you fire back with missiles and try to sink their ship, what the fuck do you think is going to happen? They'll laugh and wander off? You'd be lucky to make off your ship alive.

And I don't know why 'pirate' would make you laugh. They kill people, you know. Navies are allowed to board anyone they suspect of piracy, and operating without a flag is a pretty strong indicator. And in international waters ships without a flag are subject to the jurisdiction of all nations, and thus any vessel operated by any country can demand they allow themselves to be boarded under suspicion of being a pirate vessel, and fire on them if they refuse.

That actually isn't just some hypothetical situation. Navies actually do board unflagged ships whenever they find them in international waters or their own waters. (And they alert the host country when they find them suspicious in other people's waters.)

If you're an innocent person in a boat that wasn't intended for international trips, but drifted, you'll usually be fine, and they'll even tow you back to shore. If you refuse to stand down and be boarded, they will attempt to board by force, period. If you attempt to stop them, they will shoot back. You might be able to hold them off, but they will send their military. And, hell, even if you can defeat their entire military, they'll just alert other navies where you are. Navies board and search suspected pirate ships on general principles, you can't just fire at them and they go 'Well, that seems a bit hard, let's just give up'.

Plus, have fun finding a port that will take a ship without a flag when you need to get repairs.

I should also add

[celardore]

It's not actually for sale, the owners are just offering a tenancy. Which makes it not such a sweet deal.

Re:I should also add

[DavidTC]

Yeah, but if they're not living there, and you are, you can just declare a coup and that you are now president-for-life, then fight them off when they attempt to come back. I'm sure it would be pretty easy to smuggle weapons onto the platform, considering there's probably not even room for a port authority.

Considering the traditional way of determining the actual 'government' is 'who is in physical control of the country', you are now the ruler of Sealand. They are the 'government in exile'.

Re:I should also add

[blowdog]

Sealand say they are a separate country so which legal system is the tenancy agreement written and what court are they going to take you to if you break it.

Re:I should also add

[Yonzie]

Which would be pretty incredibly stupid to pay £65mil for, considering what the "Royal Family" did to HavenCo.
http://havenco.venona.com/

Re:I should also add

[DavidTC]

Because, legally, invading another country is illegal under international law, whereas a coup is only illegal under the laws of the country it happens in, which don't matter if the coup succeeds.

The only reason England hasn't threatened military force is the sole fact that an invasion of what is, under international law, a sovereign nation, is illegal.

Technically, doing what I suggested is also frowned on, but a rebellion with the support of 100% of the resident population, who don't get to vote, against a non-local king who owns their land and requires them to pay taxes and rent without providing any services...well, we know it's silly, but it sounds a lot better, it sounds almost like a medieval feudal rebellion.

Re:I should also add

[bigpat]

Don't be too silly. International Law? No country has ever even officially recognized Sealand, it just puts up with it because it is kinda funny and they don't cause much trouble if they are left alone. To the UK it is just a bunch of local squatters in an abandoned sea platform, you have to believe that they would be thrown out if they discovered oil under it or needed to clear it to make way for a sea lane or something. The only reason you couldn't just show up and start fighting over it would be because the UK would finally move in with force and demolish it. Oh just try to open up a luxury casino or something and see if the UK doesn't step in to collect taxes.

Theories of international law are all well and good, but the only reason indefensible small island nations remain independent is because they usually aren't worth the trouble of taking them over or the cost of supporting them, and not because of any deeply held convictions over international law.

The Original Haven CO concept there was good

[haplo21112]

However its hard to see it working out long term, otherwise it would actually be a decent way around the cyberspace annoyances. However the problem boils down to you have to get the bandwidth from somewhere. Most likely the UK due to its proximity. If you ISP is someplace with draconian IP laws then you always have the potential to be cut off.

Territorial Waters

[TubeSteak]

Sealand exists because in 1967, Britian's territorial waters extended only 3 miles out from the shore.

Therefore, they could legitimately claim the fort as theirs. If they had tried to do that after 1987... it wouldn't have worked, because the 3-mile limit was changed to 12 miles.

Re:Territorial Waters

[LiquidCoooled]

Does that mean it will suffer the same fate as Pluto and become a Minor Nation?

Uninterrupted sea views?

[Myrrlin]

Sealand is a bit of a running joke for the people of Harwich. I would contest their "uninterrupted sea views" as I'm fairly sure that the very brightly coloured (luminous yellow!) Hotel Continental situated on the cliffs of Harwich can be seen from it, hell... they can probably see it from Holland! It's also probably quite fire damaged at the moment having suffered a fire http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/5110244.stm last year, and not having its own fire brigade or hospital services had to make use of the British ones.

Oblig.

[Rob T Firefly]

Hesh wants sex!

Re:Oblig.

[jalefkowit]

I think you mean: Hesh wants jalapeno poppers!

I'm open to the idea, as long as ...

[nastro]

As long as the new owners don't change the current statutes on Monkey Knife-fighting, I don't see this as a problem.

I also hope they clear up the inconsistencies in the human-bovine marriage laws.

item you missed

[way2trivial]

starvation? it's called fishing

Re:item you missed

[bladesjester]

You never learned how to purify water using solar power?

Here's the short version:
Take a large vat full of salt water, place a recepticle in the middle to catch the fresh water, cover over with clear object (preferably concave so the curvature can direct the condensed water toward the fresh water recepticle, and then let the sun do it's work. You periodically remove the fresh water and add more salt water.

Headquarters

[mulhollandj]

Sounds like it would make a great superhero headquarters.

Re:Headquarters

[carpe_noctem]

...or supervillian headquarters.

Sealand is all but destroyed

[javaDragon]

According to Sealand's official website, the platform sustained heavy damage by fire last summer. From the desperate tone of the account, I gather that Sealand might be very close to uninhabitable by now. That might explain the decision to sell it off, more than the old age of the founder.

Re:Sealand is all but destroyed

[Reziac]

My impression from the before and after photos (see http://www.bobleroi.co.uk/ScrapBook/Sealand_Fire/S ealand_Fire.html) is that the entire site was feeling its age and was in rather poor repair all around. It strikes me that the most cost-effective method over the long haul might be to scrape the platform down to the naked deck, and build a new facility from scratch. The existing remainder appears to be a maintenance nightmare in the making.

Re:Bill Gates ?

[webax]

He doesn't need it. He can already get away with whatever he wants regardless of local laws ;)

Guns are the assembly code of politics.

[Peter Trepan]

Nations are sovereign only because they have enough firepower to keep other nations from claiming them. What does it matter what the laws of Sealand are, if you own it and you have no army? Is the army included, or do you have to put it together yourself?

Re:Guns are the assembly code of politics.

[elrous0]

I really don't know what people are expecting out of this place. But bear in mind that the only reason that Britain leaves it alone is the fact that it's not worth the hassle. The second the place actually started to make money (or did something really illegal), you can bet that the taxman would be showing up. And he's probably be arriving on a Navy ship with a lot of big guns, just to make his position crystal clear.

-Eric

Re:Guns are the assembly code of politics.

[Marcus Green]

Yes is it only the 450 strong Luxembourg army and their enormous firepower that stops Belgium, France or Germany from relieving them of their soverignty (pick other examples to suit).

Re:Guns are the assembly code of politics.

[Anonymous Coward]

Nations are sovereign only because they have enough firepower to keep other nations from claiming them.

This is exactly why Sealand needs nuclear weapons.

Re:Guns are the assembly code of politics.

[pla]

Willful ignorance of international law and diplomacy is frighteningly abundant in the US these days.

You talk about "international law" as though it exists beyond fictional agreements between the big boys with the most guns.

As for the counterexample of neutral states, they just happen to benefit from those "let's not kill each other" agreements as a side effect; When wars spread across Europe, they have a long history of making relatively safe corridors through which to move troops to the real action.

As a simple example, tell Belgium how much better international treaties protected it than guns, when Germany invaded it in 1914 - Sure, the UK had an obligation to respond, but had the UK lost, see the GGP's argument about what actually defines "right" and "wrong" on the international scale.

Re:Guns are the assembly code of politics.

[jfengel]

And if Luxembourg became a thorn in the side of any of those countries, I suspect they'd find themselves invaded right quick. If Luxembourg were to start hosting child pornography or harboring criminals, its 450-strong army would be little comfort.

Whenever Sealand comes up on Slashdot, people talk about what a great off-site data center it would make. And it would, as long as its illegal activities didn't piss off the US too much. If the US decided that there was some truly crucial piece of evidence there that it needed that outweighed the international outrage, it would be there.

I'm pretty sure they'd end up getting permission from the Brits first, or more likely asking the Brits to do it themselves. In the end I suspect the attitude taken by both governments would be, "Look, your little play country was fun, but you've always been part of Britain and your independence was more a matter of being ignored."

Re:Guns are the assembly code of politics.

[91degrees]

I think it's more of an oversimplification than wrong. Canada could probably disband its entire military without threat from the US because the US has no interest in expanding its borders. In fact, it's conceivable that the US would protect Canada from any other potential invaders for no reason other than the US considering this to be the right thing to do. If South Korea disbanded its army then it would quickly become part of North Korea.

Re:Guns are the assembly code of politics.

[pipatron]

Please refrain from using fictional countries in your examples.

Re:Guns are the assembly code of politics.

[Suspended_Reality]

I'm not so certain about that. Then England would be compelled to provide postage service, free health care, etc. Given the inconvenience of the location, it might not be worthwhile.

Re:Guns are the assembly code of politics.

[StarvingSE]

No, the US would protect Canada from other potential invaders because if the invaders took over Canada, the only thing between the US and said foreign invader would be the largest non-militarized border in the world. There's no way in hell the US would tolerate anyone other than Canada to be north of use because invasion of the US would be a cakewalk.

You don't think the US would expend expensive military resources purely to do "the right thing," do you?

Re:Guns are the assembly code of politics.

[dhaines]

"Americans can always be counted on to do the right thing... After they have exhausted all other possibilities."
--Winston Churchill

Cheaper to invade.

[91degrees]

I believe It's empty right now. Sail up there with a paper knife. occupy the terriroty. Kill all zero people who resist. Declare yourself the revolutionary government.

Of course, the declaration of what makes for statehood is a little arbitrary. So rather than go to the effort, I declare myself King of Antarctica.

Re:Cheaper to invade.

[ezzewezza]

What the hell?

I look away for five seconds and someone steals Antarctica from me.

I'd watch your back if I were you, 91degrees!

Re:Cheaper to invade.

[haystor]

You'll have a tough time taking it back since it can only be attacked from the north.

Re:Cheaper to invade.

[Joe Snipe]

Is the position for Emperor still available? If not, I'll settle for chancellor.

I think you'll have to:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_penguin

the human temple

[sulfur_lad]

Firstly, if they sold it (instead of just offering tennancy) would they have to call it "New Sealand?" Furthermore, is there a state-sanctioned religion? Do they celebrate festivus? I won't bid unless I get to pin the leader.

Sealand is awesome. It renews my desire to declare myself holy ground to avoid income tax.

Sun? In ENGLAND?

[evilandi]

bladesjester: the sun do its work

Off the coast of Essex, England, UK? In the North Sea?

I'm guessing you've never been to the east coast of England. It is sunny for approximately half an hour in the afternoon only of the third Wednesday after Pentecost.

A far, far faster method of obtaining fresh water in the North Sea would be to simply open your mouth and tilt your head skywards. It'll fill with fresh rainwater - no desalination required - in about six seconds.

Re:Sun? In ENGLAND?

[arthurpaliden]

On avarage, London has more days of sunshine than Paris.

Re:Sun? In ENGLAND?

[Anonymous Coward]

Now, be nice. They're called Parisians.

"Land" is stretching it

[shirizaki]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Sealand_fortres s.jpg

More like "Seaplatform". though it doesn't have that ring to it.


If anyone is interested in it, move along. Not only is it in the middle of nowhere, you face invasion by several post - industrialized nations. You're better off buying an island in the keys. At least then you're lucky to have something called coconuts and White Sandy beaches.

Re:Why not

[vidarh]

The last time they were "invaded" by armed people, they retook the platform with force and held the "invaders" hostage. They've also in the past shot the the British navy... So I do suspect you might need to be armed with a bit more than beer and a hamburger.

Re:Bill Gates ?

[CortoMaltese]

Besides, he could afford to buy an *actual* country.

Stating the obvious.

[mumblestheclown]

For far less than 65m you can build your own damn platform and anchor it in the channel or north sea.

Re:Stating the obvious.

[Cauchy]

The problem is that in 1982, the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea changed international law so that no new artificial platform could claim nation status. While no country explicitly recognizes Sealand, since its claims to independence predates 1982, it is exempt from this convention.

Re:Stating the obvious.

[Timbotronic]

I wonder if that was in response to the nuts who created the Republic of Minerva.

Always loved this one. In 1971, some crazy bastard from Vegas with more dollars than sense rolls up at a partially submerged atoll in the Pacific with several barge loads of sand, creates a small island and declares independence. Various Pacific nations find this a bit of a worry and about 6 months later, they get conquered and annexed by Tonga. Apparently the Tongan King himself came along with a few troops and a brass band!

Anyway, the "government in exile" is still trying to get the joint back. My guess is that UN Convention was drafted to prevent more "nations" popping up like this.

Re:Cost/benefit ratio

[Corporate Troll]

Except (and I am a Luxembourger) that in terms of military power, it's usually the army that is in absolute terms bigger that wins... Our army is a joke, and we know it. From what I'm concerned, they can downsize it all they want.

Also, it used to be that you needed a military training to get access to certain well paid jobs. I think you still do, but not anymore for the most famous one: Postman... Government jobs (or para-government jobs like Postman) here are much better paid than jobs in the private sector. I used to be a teacher (and hated it) and now earn a good 12K€ less per year because I went back to IT in the private sector.

AllOfMp3.com New Headquaters... Found!

[Stormx2]

With all the money they apparently make, AllOfMp3 should move to Sealand! It would stop all the copyright disputes!!

Although it's a bit damaged at the present...

[clickety6]

...the architect's design for the refurbishment is quite nice:

http://shatterhand007.com/Formula/FORMULAAtlantis. jpg

Re:Cost/benefit ratio

[Raumkraut]

You can't have a sovereign country without an appropriately sized army to back it up.

List of countries without armed forces

Wow

[SeePage87]

One of my teachers in high school taught us about Sealand because his son was one of the co-founders. Didn't think I'd see it come up on slashdot. Funny story about the country: after it was founded, many of the world's nations extended their borders into sea from (I think about) 5 miles to 10 miles. Sealand viewed this as an aggressive action by the UK since Sealand was now entirely within UK borders and was considered by the British to be UK soil. Sealands response was to extend their borders to 10 miles as well and claim the respective British coastal areas as Sealand soil.

The Pirate Bay (Literally)

[j4yx0r]

I think that the Piratbyrån should purchase it. I'd donate to the cause. ~j

Coup de Nowhere

[fm6]

Well, the Principality Army could stay on site to prevent a coup. What? There is no army? Well then, the citizens can form a militia... You say there are no citizens either? So what does "Prince" Michael rule over?

This notion that an abandoned radar platform has somehow achieved sovereign nation status just because its squatters say it is has always been a bad joke. They've only gotten away with it because nobody gives a shit. They claim to have a legal decision, but what they really have is a court case the the UK crown won't appeal out of bureaucratic inertia. The very first time they'd done something to really piss people off, a platoon of Scotland Yard bobbies would have landed, sent the "Prince" back to his sheep, and that would have been the end of it.

Yay Plagiarism!

[NoTheory]

What a terrible article, the historical facts about Sealand are plagiarized directly from wikipedia.

Wikipedia:

In 1978 Dutch and German businessmen, who were on Sealand to discuss a business deal, kidnapped Roy's son. However, they were overpowered, and held as prisoners of war before eventually being released.[2]

ABCNews Online:

Four years later, Dutch and German businessmen on Sealand to discuss a business deal kidnapped Roy's son but were overpowered and held as prisoners of war before eventually being released.

Wikipedia:

In 1968 Britain's Royal Navy attempted to evict Roy Bates but was unsuccessful.

ABCNews Online:

Britain's Royal Navy attempted to evict him the following year but were unsuccessful.

Someone needs to be fired.