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FBI Arrests Neteller Execs
Alcibaides writes "In a follow-up to the 2006 law attacking Internet gambling, the FBI arrested two former Neteller executives in 'connection with the creation and operation of an Internet payment services company that facilitated the transfer of billions of dollars of illegal gambling proceeds.' Apparently, the execs were 'ambushed' as they passed through the U.S. on connecting flights. Consequently, Neteller has dropped all gambling-related activity to U.S. customers, a move not expected for several months."
This should be interesting, to see how foreign countries react to the detention of their citizens for something so paltry...
"I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
-Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
Note to self....
Don't ever take a flight that stops over in the US if I've done something that the US might not like, even if it's perfectly legal in my country.
Emerald Astrology
Well, I played too much online poker anyways.
I don't see why the federal government is making such a huge deal out of online gambling, aside from the fact that it is currently not taxed. I don't really think the government deserves any more money, but I'd rather pay a small tax on my gaming than have it outlawed as some mysteriously corrupt moral issue. Other than taxation, how is this any different from the government endorsed lottery or allowed casinos in Atlantic City and Vegas?
The warmaking industry is apparently a far safer place for an executive to be. After all, their products are only being used to kill people. It's not like they're offering a completely voluntary service like gambling, which of course is among the most terrible things that can be done. I mean, how dare somebody be given the ability to spend their money as they choose!
It is worrisome how the US is trying to enforce its law on the whole world.
Many companies/people operate fully within the law of the land they live in. If this is breaking a US law, then the US should work with that government to harmonize the laws.
This is similar to how Muslim courts found danish cartoonist guilty of depicting mohammed, and condemned them to death.
don't cut it off www.mgmbill.org
...the solution for these people who want to run a business like this is to never go to or trade within America. Ever.
What a sad state of affairs.
"It does not do to leave a live dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him." - Tolkien
...are they being charged with violating this new law, or with other laws that are already on the books? Since they haven't done anything but own stock in the company since 2005, one would think that they couldn't be accused of crimes they committed before they were classed as illegal...
Leaving aside for a moment the ridiculous two faced nature of American anti-gambling laws, this is just beyond a joke. As I understand it, the two former execs in question had left the company before the SAFE Port Act was passed. So they've been arrested for setting up a company that is 100% legal in their country of origin, and was legal at the time in the USA as well (in fact, it's still legal for non-gambling related payments), and they no longer have anything to do with the company in question, aside from still holding shares.
"Land of the free", huh? I'm lost for words. The American legal system is just a joke.
"The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike." -- Delos B. McKown
Anyone have any advice on the next best alternative to get funds out?
All of it. On Red. Repeat until there isn't any more there.
If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
The U.S. Internet Gambling laws were only passed because British companies were dominating the market. If it the law was passed for moral reasons as its proponents (and much of the press) reported, then why not shut down Las Vegas too?
It shows how one sided the U.S. is when it comes to trade. Britain is a loyal (sickeningly loyal) friend of the U.S., and look how they get treated. With friends and enemies alike, the U.S. like thugs and wonders why it's become so unpopular.
BTW U.S. = government and big business. Not talking about your average Joe, who is as much a victim as everyone else.
As a former employee of Neteller, I've got to say that this is a pretty scary situation.
Neteller wasn't a sketchy operation being run in some warehouse. It employed over 500 people in Canada and paid taxes to the government here.
The company had a lot of dealings with various state governments in the US and had agreed to several restrictions long before the recent bill passed that made online gambling in the US completely illegal.
The firm employed nearly 100 software developers, many were consultants and contractors that were flown in from california. I'm sure that I'm not the only ex-employee now concerned about having to deal with the US government in the future.
Because all gambling isn't illegal means US government is protecting someone else's interests and its own profits -> tax revenue. Because there is alot of money going across the board, and taxes aren't paid. And none of these people are friends of Bush family. If there were, this little problem would silently go away. All in all, liberty in america it has become is for those who are with a largest pocketbook. It is pretty bad, but not as bad in some other places.
Though the fact that executive staff were not employed by the company anymore. What can they do? Put them into a jail? I smell political agenda there, not justice for preservation of liberty and freedom of the peoples of the country.
2c
So *this* is the reason there's no such thing as sterile transit through US airports. gfd.
I think Jon Stewart sums it up pretty well. Some things are so absurd they're actually funny.
If you live in the US, send this message to the president. Let's make it clear what the people of the United States want.
The president's email address is: comments@whitehouse.gov
Subject: Release Neteller Execs
Two former NETELLER executives were detained while traveling separately through the United States yesterday (Jan. 15) in "connection with the creation and operation of an Internet payment services company that facilitated the transfer of billions of dollars of illegal gambling proceeds from United States citizens to the owners of various Internet gambling companies located overseas," according to the U.S. Attorney General's office of Southern New York.
The two executives are: Stephen Eric Lawrence and John David Lefebvre.
I don't know all the facts yet about these men--the full story will come out in time, but arrests like these men, Maher Arar, and Sklyarov make the United States look VERY bad. This is hurting our economy, our public image, and our relations with the rest of the world. This is encouraging (although not the cause of) people to oppose the United States on many levels, and I believe it is making the current terrorist situation worse.
These two men are Canadian citizens, and they have been arrested for performing an activity against a law which was not passed at that time, for a company which perfomed a legitimate service which was and still is legal under Canadian law. It is not the US's prerogative to enforce our view of the law against people in other nations.
Canada is one of our closest allies. By alienating them we are hurting ourselves.
We have to stop arresting businessmen who are traveling through the United States and performing legal legitimate services in other countries -- as long as they are not threatening our national security. It is an offense to those other countries' law and it will damage our Economy and public image. I only want what is best for the United States and Justice. I want to see the freedom for all that you so often preach.
I call for a quick release of all facts, and if necessary a presidential pardon of the two people involved. Show the world that the United States truly is the home of the free.
-=Lothsahn=-
What you are suggesting is very dangerous. If I put up a web page, it should sufficethat I comply with all local laws.
If I have to consider the laws of all nations in the world, I pretty much have to hire attorneys from each of the contries to review my website.
And I can not:
1. Enjoy fredom of expression (Illegal all over, including china)
2. Critizise leaders (putin, il-jung-sum, most communists and others)
3. Advertize alcoholic beverages (Illegal in many arab countires)
4. Have any sexual material (again illegal in many countires)
5. Have any religious material worshipping any other gods than allah
6. Have any religious material worshipping any other gods than jhave
7. Have any religious material worshipping any other gods than
8. Download music(illegal in USA)
An in many cases illegal means "To be stoned to death"
Is this what you advocate?
don't cut it off www.mgmbill.org
The offline casinos, not just in the US, must love this action. I wonder how much they paid for it?
--
make install -not war
Seriously, Lefebvre is known here in Calgary (where he is from) for donating lots of money to various social causes and institutions. Now all he'll be donating is a lot of spare time to the US 'PMITA' system. What a shame that those backwards Americans are so high and mighty with their 'morals' and 'values' and what not. It's not like gambling is a huge crime either. Can't someone enjoy a night of online gambling in the privacy of their own home without big brother poking around? Where's the harm? If Lefebvre had been arrested here in Canada he would have got house arrest at the most. I'm sure he'll do some jail time in the states though. Sorry, it's not very often that Canada is good for too much. I have to flaunt it a bit.
Ah, I never said I was good at poker. What winnings?
=)
I just bought a bunch of poker books and after a trip to the bahamas to play poker with a bunch of the pros, my interest in poker has gone back up. I just reopend my neteller account and was ready for action. Oops!
So really, is there any reason for this law? I mean, not a reason for the government, but for the people, you know... who the goverment should be making laws for.
Why does the US Government feel that they are entitled to get a cut of every single thing that we do? We payed taxes on the money we play poker with, AND if you make enough playing poker, you have to pay taxes on that! So what the hell do they want? Do they want to take a tax on every single hand played?
This is really just a disgusting show by our goverment where they are not even trying to be subtle in showing us that they can fuck with us whenever they want to.
You take it, I don't want it...
For those of you screaming that the US is engaged in trade protection because they don't outlaw gambling completely I would like to point out a few things. The US is a republic composed of individual states which have more power and authority than our federal government. As a result of this 99% of all the vices (gambling, alcohol, etc..) are controlled at the state level. What this means is that in the US there are certain localities that have approved gambling, but many others (in fact the majority of the country) that doesn't allow it (much like alcohol, yes there are dry counties in the US).
As a result of trying to maintain state harmony, US federal laws have long held the position that gambling by wire is Illegal. This current law is just an extension of that long historic policy (existing since the days of the telegraph). Not only is this to appease the states and localities that don't allow gambling but it's also because gambling draws organized crime, and without heavy regulation (and even with it in some cases) cheating by the casinos becomes the norm.
So contrary to what you may think, if online gambling were legal in the US it would be absolutely dominated by the large corporations that run the casinos in Vegas. These casinos would JUMP at the chance to be involved in online gambling if they could (as 10 years ago they tried quite extensively to lobby congress to allow it), so any lobbying by the industry now is simply to allow a fair playground of enforcement of the US gambling by wire laws that already exist. Regulation of an enterprise historically and currently used as the single largest source of illegal money laundering isn't a bad thing, and you will have trouble getting sympathy from any significant percentage of US citizens who are bombarded by stories of lives destroyed by gambling addictions. And really, much like any crime, if you market your crime to citizens of another country and knowingly break that countries laws you need to be careful where you travel. For example, if I was going to go to China I wouldn't want to have ever been tied to anti-china activity as it would likely get me arrested. As another example, lets consider the south American drug lords, they don't bring drugs into the US personally nor do they in some cases do anything illegal in their own countries (at least that they are willing to prosecute them for), but many are sought for extradition to the US because they engage in an activity that creates crime in the US. In reality this is no different, as gambling online is unequivocally illegal in the US, but there are corporations and casinos engaged in actively breaking US law. Much like the drug lords they will pursue them for creating the market to violate US law although I doubt they will seek extradition of anyone.
Lets just be clear, it had nothing to do with Britain dominating the industry, it had everything to do with preserving the current laws by adapting them to the internet. The industry is a victim of it's own success, had it remained small there might have never been action by the US congress, and the FBI wouldn't be trying to make an example of someone to try to scare the rest of the industry into not being active participants in the breaking of US law.
Finally, it's apparent whoever arrested them didn't really know what was going on. They couldn't bring a case against the men simply for the fact that it would violate habeas corpus. With no current active role in the company (if true) their case won't go past the preliminary hearing.
When U.S. forces are stationed in foreign countries, they are usually subject to a Status Of Forces Agreement, which states which country has jurisdiction for which crimes. I don't know if we have a SOFA with the new Iraqi government, but if I had to guess, I would guess that we do, and any military member raping an Iraqi woman would be subject to the U.S. Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ).
You are missing an important point about how the law relates to national souvereignity:
Murder is unlawful in most contries/states, but the juristicion to prosecute and punish rests solely with the county/state.
If you commit murder in Idaho, a California court can not convict you of that crime.
If you commit murder in Denmark, the US can not convict you of that crime.
This is part of international treaties that all memebers of the UN are signatories to.
however, over the last years, the US are in many areas violating this, and treat the entire world as US juristicion.
This includes areas like
1. Actions aganinst people/companies living/based in tax havens
2. Underage sex tourism
3. Online gambling
and other
(1) is mostly to get more tax revenue, (2) is beacause local juristicions is lax, and (3) is to protect national casinos that donate a lot of money to candidates.
don't cut it off www.mgmbill.org
Of course many countries have long-arm statutes - however your examples are plain wrong.
Pinochet was charged by Spain for crimes against Spanish citizens living in Chile. Spain tried to have him extradited from the UK but failed. He returned to Chile where he died.
Milosevic was indicted by the United Nations International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia for crimes against humanity and charges of violating the laws or customs of war and grave breaches of the Geneva Convention. The trial might have been in the Hague however the Netherlands was not the country prosecuting him.
So both these cases had very little to do with long-arm statutes.
is that these guys are not officers of the company, or employees. They are stockholders.
These two gentlemen founded what was a perfectly legal business in the Isle of Man, Neteller PLC, in 1999. Mr Lawrence resigned as a non-executive director of the Company on 13 October 2006 having stepped down as non-executive chairman of the Company on 11 May 2006. Mr Lefebvre resigned as a non-executive director of the Company on 15 December 2005.
With the passage of the "Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act of 2006" the activities of Neteller PLC in regard to transferring funds of US citizens for the purpose of gambling became illegal.
Think it through. If you founded, or are an 'owner' by virtue of stock holdings, of a company whose activities are declared illegal somewhere in the world, and you happen to pass through a territory of that country, you could be held, your passport take away, without recourse. Before you hop on that next international flight, is every company in your retirement plan's mutual funds squeaky clean in all places you might touch down?
Furthermore (I've said this many times before), I believe that the 2006 law was completely driven by the Vegas casinos. Making online gambling illegal does several great things for their cause: 1) It stops or greatly slows the unbelievable flood of cash leaving the US and going into the pockets of Party Poker, etc. 2) It forces the US lawmakers to decide whether or not poker is a form of gambling, and thus, illegal. That's the biggie. As part of the 2006 law, a committee was established to determine the answer to that exact question. And I'll bet you that the same dirty Vegas (read Mob) money that got that law passed in the first place is also going to ensure that the committee's decision is that poker is a "game of skill" and is therefore exempt from all this hooplah over online gambling. And presto, the Vegas bigwigs have an open door to legal online poker, which is by far the most lucrative form of online gambling.
The bills and the work that this centers around is supported by both parties. That the Dems support this is not strange, the Democratic Party is about the government protecting and supporting the poor stupid population against them selves and others. As such the Dems are for limitations on individual freedoms, high taxes (to fund their government programs) etc.
The traditional platform for the Republican Party is the opposite. The individual is responsible for his own actions, has the ability to think for him self. The Republican party is therefore for small government, small taxes, no government control.
Sadly, the last few decades the Republican Party has turned into a totally different party. They are now for a huge central government (the Democrats have never spent this much public money on crap, even when you take the Iraq bill out of the budget). This enormous central government funds insane crap like in-door rain forests in Ohio. For now the money has generally been borrowed, but at some stage we have to pay that back. If we don't see a significant economic growth, that means higher taxes at some stage.
In addition to now being (far more so than the Dems) the big-government party, the Republicans also have become the party of government limitations on individual freedoms. I don't have the right to travel where I want. Did you know that there is now a law, pushed through from Florida of course, that says that if the government suspects me of planning to sail my private boat to Cuba, they can impound the boat? Of course the government, lead by these repugnicans, also don't want me to gamble online. On and on.
Since the republican party started taking directions from born-again, male-prostitute buying, crack-snorting religious nut cases, this country has been in a nose dive. More religion in Washington means more repugnicans, and that means more shit for the rest of us.
Any thinking individual who values individual freedoms, personal responsibility, no government meddling and all the other things the republican party used to stand for should voice their opinion. Say it out loud: "I don't like these people who turned The Republican Party into a Stalin-inspired left-wing nut cases with a Jesus twist. I will not vote for them.
Anyone who likes these freedoms and still votes republican needs a brain transplant. I've heard that the San Diego zoo are doing some experiments with chimpanzees. Maybe they have a brain or two extra. It would be a huge upgrade for anyone who voted republican the past 6 years.
Oh, and btw, though I would never vote Democrat, there is nothing wrong with those who do. The democratic party has a consistent platform in most ways. They favor government "oversight" over the individual. Fine, if that is what you thing society should be, more power to you, and vote for the Democratic Party. This is a free country and we like differences of opinion. If you are republican in nature and vote for the RHINOs currently in charge, you are what Carlos Mencia would call "dee-dee-dee".
One thing that seperates Australia from the rest of the world is we don't pay income tax on gambling earnings. The only main cavert is as long as the winnings weren't gained as a professional gambler.
It makes it trival to do this in Australia.
Our recent poker champion took home $1 million AUD and didn't pay a cent in tax - World Series 2005.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Hachem
I'm not sure about his current status, he probably pays tax now given his elevated income and career changes.
Go to youtube and read the comments there for a couple of minutes and Slashdot will be pure heaven again.
Keeping in mind:
- US collecting data from people flying there, for who knows which nefarious purposes.
- Track history of US government aprehending innocent people in airports.
- Kidnappings (euphemistically called "renditions") in order to let brutish governments do some bit of interrogation.
- Secrecy about charges or laws if you are unlucky to be indicted or held for something nasty.
- Guantanamo.
I think my visits to all those wonderful places in the US I wanted to see may need to be postponed for a while. I have not been to NY for goodness sakes...
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Win/lose rations aren't determined by "rigging the decks", not in blackjack, poker, roulette, anything. They are determined by the rules of the game. There is NO need for any casino, live or online, to "rig" anything - the rules of the game dictate the house edge, and that's it. You don't make any corrections, you don't have to make anything "feel natural for the players" - that's just FUD in disguise. If a casino wants to make more money on Blackjack, they either get players to play more hands, for more money, or they alter the rules of the game (for instance, and a real-world example, start paying 6-5 on a Blackjack instead of 3-2). The law (for instance, of Antigua) says that a certain game (say Blackjack) should have a theoretical house edge of X% - that means that the online casino is not allowed to alter the rules too much, or they will not be allowed to keep their license. The law does not, and of course requires you not to, interfere with the randomness of the game, or let you make any "corrections".
Poppycock. It is illegal in the US to transfer funds to an offshore gambling operation. These activities occurred in the US, not in England, France and Timbuktu.
It is not illegal for Americans to gamble online. What is illegal is for a business to collect money in the US resulting from that activity. This is exactly what Neteller does, i.e. perform financial transactions in the US that are illegal.