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Norway Outlaws iTunes
haddieman notes that while many people are getting more and more annoyed at DRM, Norway actually did something about it. The PC World article explains: "Good intentions, questionable execution. European legislators have been giving DRM considerable attention for a while, but Norway has actually gone so far as to declare that Apple's iTunes store is illegal under Norwegian law.
The crux of the issue is that the Fairplay DRM that is at the heart of the iTunes/iPod universe doesn't work with anything else, meaning that if you want access to the cast iTunes library, you have to buy an iPod."
Bah! If I want to play Wii games, I have to buy a Wii. Outlaw the Wii.
The difference between fairplay and playsforsure is that fairplay *only* supports ipod, playsforsure is compatible with all sorts of hardware. I get the impression that Norway doesn't have a problem with the DRM itself, it's because it forces you to use specific hardware.
My other Sig is
"Not letting them use DRM" would be a Hell of a lot better than what Norway's actually doing, which is giving Microsoft's "PlaysForSure" DRM (which is just as proprietary!) preferential treatment.
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
Gaaa!
Norway == socialists == doubleplus good
DRM == doubleplus ungood
iTunes == Apple == doubleplus good
Norway outlaws iTunes? What is a good gay socialist Mac user going to do? What is the right side to be on?
Ok, trolling is fun and all, but seriously.
I think it's a load. People have the right to be stupid. Without that as Right 0 no other "Right" can be read as anything other than "You have the Right to ____ unless we, the anointed elite, think decide your exercise of it is dumb." It's why the 1st Amendment is safe so long as -both- Noam Chomsky and StormFront were free to rant and rave but didn't survive John McCain & Russ Feingold.
I'd never buy from the iTunes store because I think the deal offered is one sided, shortsighted and stupid. But I'll defend Steve's Right to try to sell it and your Right to freely enter into a license agreement with him.
Democrat delenda est
It's not so much that you need an iPod to enjoy your itunes purchases, but that you are locked into future hardware purchases from Apple
If you buy many albums from the iTunes sture you can enjoy them and all is rosy. Then two years later the battery on your iPod has died, so you look at what's available. You think there are some nice offerings from creative or sandisk but, trouble is, you can't listen to any of your existing purchases. Your locked to Apple.
It's well boyond time that other players were allowed to license Fairplay, and that other music providers be allowed to sell Fairplay encoded tracks.
There's a solid technical reason why Wii games only run on a Wii. Technical incompatibility of DRM-locked music, however, is a purely artificially imposed barrier to interoperability. It's gratuitous incompatibility.
Imagine that every car manufacturer operated a chain of gas stations. All cars could run on the same fuel, but every brand of car had a bizarrely shaped fuel intake that would only accept the corresponding bizarrely shaped nozzle. You could only fill up a Toyota at a Toyota gas station, a Ford and a Ford station, etc.
Further, if you dared to try to create adapter for universal fueling, you'd be thrown in jail and fined tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars for violating the laws the big car companies paid politicians all around the world to pass, to protect there little lock-in schemes.
You could either go along with such BS, and happily sing the tune the car companies want you to sing ("If you don't like it, you can don't have to buy a car! No one's forcing you! Just by a bicycle and shut up already!"), or you could cheer along the efforts to end protected for deliberately imposed incompatibility and improve things for consumers instead.
Really? Then show me where I can get a software player not made by Microsoft capable of playing PlaysForSure Media! In particular, show me where I can get one that works on operating systems other than Windows!
The only "fair" regulations would be ones that outlaw DRM entirely. To do what they've actually done -- especially when done in the name of "protecting consumers" -- is a farce!
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
There's a big difference between forcing a software company to expend the enormous effort that would be required to make a piece of software run on multiple OSes, and telling a music distributor that they shouldn't gratuitously add artificially imposed incompatibility.
Norway isn't asking Apple to take extra steps to interoperate with competitors' hardware, they're asking them to take less steps to prevent interoperability. There is a difference between dictating that the music be offered in an arbitrary codec and dictating that the music be offered in a form usable by a player supporting the codec that is used.
"Because Science" is one step from "Because old book". Try "Because of my experiment testing my falsifiable assertion".
It's really simple to explain.
See, they have this nation over there called Norway, bunch of Democratic Socialists, and the people that live there, they have all sorts of gadgets and music distribution networks and formats and whatnot, and they think that it sucks when all these different companies decide to screw the end user and try to make them pay over and over to listen to the same bunch of songs by the same bunch of retired or dead musicians, or force them to buy their hardware upgrade from the same company so they don't lose their music library.
So they made it illegal to do that to people.
You can talk all you want about the value of these business relationships and the investments and monopolies till you're blue in the face, but it's really kind of irrelevant. The Norwegians decided that these sorts of arrangements amount to unfair business practices, so unless Apple wants to play by their rules, it appears Apple is free to go peddle their shit somewhere else.
-1 Uncomfortable Truth
Really? Then show me where I can get a software player not made by Microsoft capable of playing PlaysForSure Media! In particular, show me where I can get one that works on operating systems other than Windows!
My Sansa connects to Winamp because of Playsforsure.
I don't respond to AC's.
This headline (and the one at PC World) is quite misleading. Norway has not outlawed ITMS. It has simply been found that ITMS is not following the law in Norway. This means that ITMS has always been illegal. You can blame Apple for not checking the law in the market they were entering (or checking, but deciding that the law doesn't apply to them).
Consumer protection laws can sometimes be a big pill for corporations to swallow, but if Norway is anything like Denmark, which is quite likely, they usually end up having to follow the rules, rather than getting the rules changed to suit them.
They don't give a rats arse about how restrictive it is - they care that it removes the user's ability to choose to use a non-Apple device instead of an iPod. Microsoft does not do the same with ProbablyPlaysForSureButDontQuoteUsOnThat - that is supported on quite a wide number of platforms (and Microsoft will happily allow you to integrate it in your own device if you are a manufacturer, Apple outright refuses to).
For a site about things like basic rights, Slashdot users sure do like to censor "dissent".
Umm... Until the ill-fated Zune (my, isn't THAT cynical of me), Microsoft never made their own music player. So I have no idea where you got you're info, but it's quite incorrect.
/. minions were crying about just a few years ago in US v. MSFT?
It's not a farce. They're pushing to enforce consumer choice. Isn't that what the
The Norwegians decided that these sorts of arrangements amount to unfair business practices, so unless Apple wants to play by their rules, it appears Apple is free to go peddle their shit somewhere else.
Then everyone else should face the same issues. Currently I have an iPod and an iMac. I can't use Napster, playsforsure doesn't work for me. I can't buy anything from the Zune store. Your rebuy your music comment I'm sure really resonates with playsforsure buyers who got a Zune. Apples never yet caused iTunes music to not play on any iPod they've ever sold.
Apple is being setup. If the European union countries want to play tough with Apple on DRM they had sure as hell better play tough with everyone.
Or they could take the really high road and reap the adoration of the rest of the world and ban DRM oughtright. They could even mandate watermarks that don't affect playback and create a workable system with that technology.
Attacking only Apples DRM isn't really an attack on DRM, it actually becomes a battle to entrench more DRM that is even more draconian than fairplay.
In order to not be a bunch of posturing hypocrites Norway should ban all DRM. In reality their doing more to serve the RIAA's agenda here than they are showing concern for consumers.
It makes me wonder though, is the Zune store illegal in Norway too???
While I wonder the same thing, the Zune store is currently only available in the US.
"Our opponent is an alien starship packed with atomic bombs. We have a protractor."
Go re-read my post, and you'll see you missed the keyword: "software." I'm not complaining about the Zune, I'm complaining that I can't legally write myself an alternative to Windows Media Player that works on Linux and plays "PlaysForSure" media!
The only way to actually do that effectively is to outlaw DRM entirely, because DRM is inherently antithetical to choice.
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
"Hello, thats what DRM is all about"
Since when?! DRMed CDs, DVDs, HD-DVDs, BluRays... they play on a multitude of different devices, from different companies. Windows doesn't limit what hardware you can run it on, and all the other 3rd party software that only runs on Windows? Well that's the people who write the software's decision.
Norway has outlawed iTunes because you don't have the choice of what hardware from what company to listen to it on. It's Apples' players only.
The revolution will not be televised... but it will have a page on Wikipedia
"I mean c'mon Microsoft get a pass for operating systems 90%"
/avoiding/ MS completely, and a number of European and American city governments are in the process of migrating away from them.
Really? Since when? Does 'Monopoly Suit' mean 'pass' in your world?
Hell, most of the developing world is
Meanwhile, Apple's 80% market share of iPod/iTunes zombies notwithstanding, it's the only DRM maker that doesn't license out its format. It's not the former that's got Norway up in arms, it's the latter.
110100 1101000 1101000 1100110 0 1101111 1101000 1100011 1
- Nullsoft Winamp
- Amazon Unbox video player
- Musicmatch Jukebox
I don't think one exists, but I don't know if software companies are prohibited from obtaining PlaysForSure licenses for software players on other operating systems. Nullsoft, MusicMatch, and Amazon could obtain PlaysForeSure licenses for their Windows software. I have seen no evidence that Flip4Mac has been prohibited from obtaining a PlaysForSure license for their Windows Media Components for QuickTime.Can I play my purchased music from services such as the new Napster, MusicMatch, MusicNow, or BuyMusic.com through Winamp 5?
Yes. Yes you can.
In contrast, other software companies are prohibited from licensing FairPlay. Some companies want to license FairPlay so that their software can play iTunes Store media, but Apple refuses to license their DRM.
That said, I'm not sure if I agree with Norway's decision to ban FairPlay. This might be excessive regulation.
TO START
PRESS ANY KEY
Where's the 'ANY' key? I see Esk, Kitarl, and Pig-Up...
So does that mean that Zune and Sony's Atrak and WMA are also banned? All of those only play on one brand of machine or operating system.
Well what about software that only runs on one operating system? After Ipods can run other operating system sso it's not the ipod that is doing the lock-in it's the operating system on the ipod.
By that reasoning all windows software is windows only and must be banned.
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
What's stopping a competing company from making aftermarket ECUs? Nothing, I suspect. Ford hasn't done anything to stop third parties from making parts that fit in a Ford, nor have they done anything to stop competing auto companies from making cars that accept Ford parts.
Apple, OTOH, has done exactly that. The reality of the situation is that the DRM is not there to prevent competition as its primary purpose. [...] but that the actual primary reason for the DRM is to satisfy the recording industry's conditions for playing ball with Apple. If that were true, then Apple would license FairPlay to other music stores and hardware manufacturers, wouldn't they? That's what Microsoft did with PlaysForSure, but Apple has reacted quite fiercely when competitors have tried to get in on FairPlay.
One purpose of FairPlay is to appease the record company. The other purpose, which is arguably more important, is to enforce lock-in between iPod and iTunes. This promotes the iPod by (1) tying the most popular, best-known music store to a single line of players, and (2) encouraging iPod users to build up a library of songs that will become practically useless if they switch brands, effectively threatening iPod owners to keep buying Apple (except those who get all their music by ripping CDs rather than from iTMS).
Visual IRC: Fast. Powerful. Free.
Everyone else here is capable of noticing the difference between "this song plays on any player from any company, as long as it incorporates technology XYZ (which anyone can license)" and "this song only plays on players from one specific company". If you can't make that distinction, you have my pity, and I hope you're still able to become a functioning member of society despite this handicap.
Visual IRC: Fast. Powerful. Free.
"How hard would it be for a recording company to copyright all of the hash values for every common LAME/Nero/WinAMP encoding option set?"
Impossible. Firstly - do you know how many combinations that is? Just with VBR files, you have each different value for the lower bitrate AND upper bitrate bounds, multiply by each of the quality bias values, multiply by stereo (joint vs seperate) options, multiply by frequency options (44100, 48000)... THEN you could just drop or raise the volume of the whole track by 1%, and get completely different codes for each of those combo's... then 2%... or increase the bass by 1%... in the end, you're probably talking about so many different values, that you'd get hash colisions with a file that isn't that copyrighted material, which would prove the whole system flawed.
Secondly - you'd have to publish (in some form or another) all of those codes to show you created them.
So no, it's not funny at all that they haven't tried it.
The revolution will not be televised... but it will have a page on Wikipedia
Every windowsOS device that runs quicktime plays apple fairplay drm. for example an OQO is a pocket itunes playing device. What do they mean fairlplay only plays on ipods. Conversely you don't have to buy fairplay music to play it on your ipod. You can buy or load MP3s.
So I don't get it. You can play itunes/fairplay on tonnes of devices not made by apple. and you don't have to buy itunes software.
Moreover here's a hypothetical. Suppose the itunes software had two buttons on it. One button was marked "load my ipod with some music I bought at the itunes store" and the other button was marked "load my non-apple music player with some music I bought at the itunes music store".
Would that satisfy the norweigans? well itunes already has those features, just the buttons are marked differently. The second button is marked "convert my itunes music to something my non-apple player can play".
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
Look at it this way: 3rd party software that only runs on Windows is exactly like DRMed music that only runs on iPods - it is the content manufacturer's decision to limit the platform. 3rd party developers could choose to use cross-platform tools; the RIAA could choose to sell music without DRM, that would work on any mp3 player (and actually the latter is much simpler).
DRM is the RIAA's fault, not Apple's (even if Apple do benefit from it). To see why this is true, consider the case of Norway from TFA: if they require iTunes to 'interoperate' with all mp3 players, or Apple must not do business in Norway, then the simplest way to comply would be to... sell music without DRM. The reason Apple can't do that is the RIAA.
You'll get a software media player for Linux that can play PlaysForSure media just as soon as someone licenses PlaysForSure, develops and sells such a product. Absolutely nothing at all is preventing someone from doing this, however there are licensing costs and stipulations which would certainly prevent this "open source" thing you espouse so zealously. It would be just like a legal software DVD player for Linux.
Of course, Apple doesn't license FairPlay to anyone, so while it is possible for a legal PlaysForSure player to be released for Linux, you're really SOL with FairPlay. Keep defending them, though. It doesn't really make you look like a complete and total prat.
According to the above posts, Norway is pissed that iTMS's DRM locks you into Apple hardware, and is therefore illegal (nevermind that iTMS songs do play on any Mac and Windows computer via the iTunes app).
But what about video game consoles? If one wants to play "Gears of War", one is locked into Microsoft's Xbox 360 hardware. Same for any console wrt games exclusive to that console. Is Norway going to outlaw video game consoles as well?
-- "I never gave these stories much credence." - HAL 9000