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IBM's Transistor Data Revealed

Posted by kdawson on from the spoiling-the-timing dept.

Atryn writes "After last week's story — Intel and IBM both announcing breakthroughs in chip design enabling continued adherence to Moore's Law — many folks wondered how and why the two companies' announcements came out simultaneously. The Register explains it, and as a bonus they are releasing a leaked copy of IBM's future research documentation (PDF)."

49 of 67 comments (clear)

  1. So..... by MatrixCubed · · Score: 3, Funny

    Do you work for Intel or IBM?

    1. Re:So..... by somersault · · Score: 1

      You know things are getting desperate when you have to reinvent the transistor just to get first post

      --
      which is totally what she said
  2. Summary... by Otter · · Score: 1, Insightful
    IBM got wind of Intel's announcement and rushed out their own. The end.

    I was skeptical that there really were people who saw them and wondered "Wow, engineers in both companies made these discoveries today?", but a look at the Slashdot story shows the first comment (in my display, anyway) asking "Two breakthroughs in one day?" (Score:5, Insightful)

    --
    What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
    1. Re:Summary... by Fordiman · · Score: 1

      IBM, Intel, it doesn't matter.

      When am I going to get something the size of an SD card with processor (ARM, >=200MHz), RAM(>=128M), sound(16 bit full-duplex), video (1024x768x24bit), a nice-sized flash HD(>=2G), and contact-headers for IDE & USB ports?

      --
      110100 1101000 1101000 1100110 0 1101111 1101000 1100011 1
    2. Re:Summary... by Sinbios · · Score: 1

      You want 1024x768 video, on a screen the size of a SD card? :/

      --
      Anyone can "stand up for what they believe", but it takes a very brave individual to change what they believe. - Loundry
    3. Re:Summary... by Fordiman · · Score: 1

      No, I want a 1024x768x24 bit capable video controller on a device the size of an SD card.

      --
      110100 1101000 1101000 1100110 0 1101111 1101000 1100011 1
  3. Answer is clear by Lithdren · · Score: 5, Funny

    Intel developed a time travel device and sent a robot back in time to steal the plans from IBM.

    And they tried to kill Bill Gate's mother, but you'd be suprised how difficult that was.

    You'd think 640 rounds of ammo would be enough to kill anybody.

    1. Re:Answer is clear by humungusfungus · · Score: 1

      Nonono, you're off by an order of magnitude.

      640k rounds of ammo ought be enough to kill anybody*.

      * Except Chuck Norris.

      --
      No sig.
    2. Re:Answer is clear by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

      Two orders, actually.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    3. Re:Answer is clear by humungusfungus · · Score: 1

      See, I get my mind on Chuck, and all of a sudden I go stupid. Thanks for pointing that out. :)

      --
      No sig.
    4. Re:Answer is clear by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

      Well, it just goes to make your point even more, I'd say. I dunno how many squibs get fired off in a typical Chuck Norris flick but it's got to be in the thousands.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    5. Re:Answer is clear by somersault · · Score: 1

      Don't forget James Bond (and any of the Terminators)

      --
      which is totally what she said
  4. Silicon Valley will become K-Valley then? by namityadav · · Score: 4, Informative

    From Intel: High-K Material is a material that can replace silicon dioxide as a gate dielectric. It has good insulating properties and also creates high capacitance (hence the term "high-k") between the gate and the channel. Both of these are desirable properties for high performance transistors. "k" (actually the Greek letter kappa) is an engineering term for the ability of a material to hold electric charge. Think of a sponge. It can hold a lot of water. Wood can hold some but not as much. Glass can't hold any at all. Similarly, some materials can store charge better than others, hence have a higher "k" value. Also, because high-k materials can be thicker than silicon dioxide, while retaining the same desirable properties, they greatly reduce leakage.

    1. Re:Silicon Valley will become K-Valley then? by exley · · Score: 3, Informative

      No. The substrate that these chips are fabbed on is still silicon. The article is somewhat misleading because it's the gate oxide, which is typically made of silicon dioxide, that's being replaced with the hafnium-based high-k material. I'm loathe to site this as a source but since it has pictures, here is a Wikipedia article that will show you the basic structure for anyone unfamiliar.

      I also find it interesting that they are using metal gates instead of polysilicon, considering that metal gates were used in the olden days before the switch to poly.

    2. Re:Silicon Valley will become K-Valley then? by exley · · Score: 2, Informative

      Despite the fact that you decided to go troll on us with how you responded to the parent post, I'll bite since this was something I got to thinking about as well.

      Higher gate capacitance means that you can get more charge in the channel for a given gate voltage (Q=CV). This can give both higer currents and a reduced threshold voltage, which are good things.

      But higher capacitance, of course, slows things down when you get to thinking about those RC time constants. So, do the benefits of higher capacitance outweigh the negatives? IBM and Intel seem to think so.

    3. Re:Silicon Valley will become K-Valley then? by Umbrel · · Score: 5, Informative

      The improvement is not about increased capacitance in each transistor channel, that would be bad. The capacitance is scpecifically increased in the gate, that means that the gates can be made thicker (less leakage currents = less power consumption) while keeping (or improving) the values for current and voltaje needed to be applied at the gate and the time for the transistor to switch.

      --
      Ave Maria
    4. Re:Silicon Valley will become K-Valley then? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      Think of a sponge. It can hold a lot of water...Glass can't hold any at all.

      Try holding the glass right-side up.

    5. Re:Silicon Valley will become K-Valley then? by DeadCatX2 · · Score: 1
      Uh, the GP never made any claims about the substrate. In fact, GP specifically stated this is the gate dielectric that's being replaced.

      So, your statement of "no" makes no sense, because you're agreeing with the GP.

      Oh, and the reason they're using metal gates instead of poly, can be found courtesy of RWT, last paragraph of the following link

      http://www.realworldtech.com/page.cfm?ArticleID=RW T012707024759&p=3

      Since polysilicon is not compatible with Intel's high-k material, the newer 45nm transistors use a metal gate
      --
      :(){ :|:& };:
    6. Re:Silicon Valley will become K-Valley then? by warrior · · Score: 1

      The high-k material doesn't necessarily mean the capacitance of the gate will be higher, that depends on the dimensions of the gate as well as the material. If the thickness of the dielectric was kept constant the cap would go up, but what we're trying to do here is increase the dielectric thickness while maintaining performance. By increasing the dielectric thickness we can put a stop to the quantum tunneling that creates gate leakage. If we did this using the same Si02 gate dielectric it would cause an increase in threshold voltage and decrease in transistor gain. Gate cap is not usually the largest capacitive component on a given route (interconnect, usually). I'm sure there's a sweet spot for transistor performance vs average RC. However, those finite RC contants might be what limits these designs in the end, something a lower impedance connection to VDD/VSS can't do anything about.

      --
      Intel transfer the difficult from Hadware to software, for get more power, programmer need more technology. -- chinaitn
    7. Re:Silicon Valley will become K-Valley then? by John+Hasler · · Score: 1

      > Uh, the GP never made any claims about the substrate.

      The article implies that hafnium is to supplant silicon entirely. The subject line " Silicon Valley will become K-Valley then?" implies something similar.

      --
      Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
    8. Re:Silicon Valley will become K-Valley then? by warrior · · Score: 1

      Um, by definition the gate _capacitance_ is part of the RC network. The grandparent is right in that if Tox was kept constant then the RC delay would go up.

      --
      Intel transfer the difficult from Hadware to software, for get more power, programmer need more technology. -- chinaitn
    9. Re:Silicon Valley will become K-Valley then? by DeadCatX2 · · Score: 1

      Oooh. When you said no, you weren't talking about the GP, but the article.

      --
      :(){ :|:& };:
    10. Re:Silicon Valley will become K-Valley then? by Maury+Markowitz · · Score: 1

      I'm curious to know where this leads though. As I understand it one of the largest reasons for abandoning widespread use of GaAs semis was that there was no analog of SiO2. If I am reading these releases correctly, it's the SiO2 that's being replaced by the Ha. So if this is correct, wouldn't a GaAs system using the same methodologies be "doable"?

      Forgive my newbie-ness, fab tech isn't my strong suit.

      Maury

    11. Re:Silicon Valley will become K-Valley then? by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      That's Potassium Valley to you!

      --
      https://www.eff.org/https-everywhere
    12. Re:Silicon Valley will become K-Valley then? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      "I also find it interesting that they are using metal gates instead of polysilicon, considering that metal gates were used in the olden days before the switch to poly."

      Yup, we used to use metal gates, but the difference in work function between the gate and the silicon caused problems. It gets somewhat confusing, but I'll try to explain briefly. The work function is a basic property of a metal or semiconductor that indicates the distance from the vacuum level to the fermi level of a plain piece of that material. When two materials with different work functions are placed in contact, the fermi levels align, and this can "bend" the conduction bands on the semiconductor. In the operation of a MOSFET these bands are also bent in various ways by voltage applied to the gate, but if the original bend is too large, it would take a huge voltage to move the conduction band to where its needed. This can result in a threshold (or turn on) voltage that is too large to be usable.

      When transistors were first developed, there were metals that had somewhat decent work functions, but they weren't great, and since its a basic property of the metal, it was a fixed value, that gave a pretty firm threshold voltage. As the process was scaled down the threshold voltage didn't scale with it. Then someone came up with the idea of using polysilicon for the gates, which solved all the work function problems. Polysilicon is just silicon grown on top of the wafer without the stringent growth conditions, seed crystals, controls, etc. that produce a wafer made out of a single crystal, so it is formed of many small crystals of silicon instead of one. But, since its still silicon, the work function is close to that of the rest of the transistor, and can be adjusted and fine tuned to any work function needed by doping it along with everything else.

      However, while polysilicon gates solved the work function problem, they created new problems of their own. They aren't as conductive as a metal, so you get some resistive loss in the gate and an increased delay when coupled with the gate capacitance. You also have a small depletion layer that forms against the oxide when the transistor is turned on, simmilar to the channel that forms on the other side of the oxide. This depletion region effectively adds extra thickness to the oxide, and thus lowers its capacitance. Lowered cap at that point in the transistor means less control over the channel, and reduced performance. You can thin the oxide to make up for it, but that gives you more leakage (the depletion region in the poly will conduct if the oxide leaks anything, so it doesn't help with leakage). High-K materials can also help with this issue, but they can only do so much.

      When the switch to polysilicon gates was first started the added resistance was pretty much negligable since the gates were so large, and the depletion region was much smaller than the oxide thickness so it wasn't the dominant factor in gate capacitance. After much scaling, however, the gate resistance is now signifigant and the loss of gate cap is pretty bad. Companies have been working for quite some time to find a metal that would work to replace poly, but its been difficult to find an alloy with a work fuction close to silicon, or that can be adjusted to be close to silicon. Its finally been done, so the next generation or two of processes will see the return of metal gates.

      Metal has always been better, its just been too difficult to use metal once the polysilicon trick was developed, but the polysilicon "hack" is starting to break down, so we're forced to go back to metal gates and find some way to make it "work".

    13. Re:Silicon Valley will become K-Valley then? by exley · · Score: 2, Informative

      The gate itself isn't inherently capacitive, it's the capacitance of the gate/oxide/channel structure that we're talking about, so you can't decouple gate capacitance and channel capacitance. Charge on the gate (which you can think of as the top plate of a parallel plate capacitor) results in equal but opposite charge on the channel (the bottom plate, with the insulating oxide acting as the dielectric).

      You are absolutely correct that the point in increasing the thickness of that oxide is to reduce leakage and power consumption. But increasing the thickness of the gate oxide lowers the capacitance of the structure, so they want high-k materials to compensate for this.

    14. Re:Silicon Valley will become K-Valley then? by exley · · Score: 1

      Right, I was going to say just that before I saw your post. I'm guessing that the capacitance of the interconnect dominates over the gate capacitance in the RC delays? I'm used to the low-speed analog world where we don't worry as much about our interconnect in terms of self capacitance.

    15. Re:Silicon Valley will become K-Valley then? by warrior · · Score: 1

      I'm guessing that the capacitance of the interconnect dominates over the gate capacitance in the RC delays?
       
      I'm willing to wager that most of the time it is. To scale (or keep constant) R the metal aspect ratios are ridiculous, resulting in high lateral cap. Either high R or C drowns out the gate cap (but it's still situation-dependent).

      These FETs should be great for analog - no gate leakage, reduced short-channel effects should make current-mirrors/sources a pleasure and the high gm won't hurt analog circuits, either...

      --
      Intel transfer the difficult from Hadware to software, for get more power, programmer need more technology. -- chinaitn
    16. Re:Silicon Valley will become K-Valley then? by grrrl · · Score: 1

      The ease of growing SiO2 initially made it one of the best features of the Si system which is why billions have been spent to mature the industry - they have now reached the point where the rest of the money and time invested into Si technology still makes Si processing far superior to all other materials systems (in the end, Si is cheap and they already have it all working - changing one thing is much easier than moving to a whole different material system).

    17. Re:Silicon Valley will become K-Valley then? by default+luser · · Score: 1

      It's not just a "compatibility" problem.

      Semi designers have been trying to ditch polysilicon for years. Back when it was introduced, it was an improvement over metal gates, but that's not the case anymore. Since it's still a semiconductor, you get a depletion region on the poly itself. You can ignore this in large processes, but as things shrink it really starts to have an effect.

      --

      Man is the animal that laughs.
      And occasionally whores for Karma.

  5. I liked the way the Register put it better by ben+there... · · Score: 1, Offtopic

    Well, wouldn't you know it, we just happen to have acquired a rough version of that very presentation. Geeks out there can read up on IBM's breakthrough ahead of time via this PDF - a Register exclusive.

    Doesn't it suck when someone messes with your timing?
    IBM deserves a bit of a jab from the folks at Register whom they fooled for a few days with their "paper release" technology.
  6. Isn't it obvious? by Wicko · · Score: 1

    It is pretty clear that IBM is desperate. Intel has a ton of momentum, and they have to be stopped somehow, even if it means throwing themselves at the rolling boulder. It seems obvious why they would try to reveal their new tech at the same time, when you keep in mind how much of a lead Intel has at the moment.

    1. Re:Isn't it obvious? by kfg · · Score: 2, Funny

      See Swann vs. Edison. Swann demonstrated first. Edison had a personal PR department.

      It's all about the marketing. However, in that case the battle was asymetrical, not just in marketing, but in time to market. Having shit on the shelves with your name on it is marketing that's pretty hard to trump.

      KFG

    2. Re:Isn't it obvious? by dascandy · · Score: 1

      Also the story of Graham Bell versus the other bloke/gal that invented telephone. Allegedly about 6 hours between each other.

      Makes me feel really sorry for the bloke/gal whose name I can't even remember.

    3. Re:Isn't it obvious? by stevesliva · · Score: 1

      It is pretty clear that IBM is desperate. Intel has a ton of momentum, and they have to be stopped somehow
      No. Yes. No.

      IBM being six months behind Intel in 45nm tech is pretty meaningless unless Intel uses it to somehow grab more Itanium share, which is unlikely. Other than in Power vs. Itanium they're not direct competitors, and even in that arena, it's like calling the Corvettes and Ferraris competitors. Sure, you may end up buying the other thing, but only if you drastically alter your expectations.

      Different story for AMD.
      --
      Who do you get to be an expert to tell you something's not obvious? The least insightful person you can find? -J Roberts
    4. Re:Isn't it obvious? by ivan256 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It seems more likely to me that they're both announcing this "new technology" around now for a different reason.

      The first US patent to mention the use of a hafnium oxide as a dielectric expires later this year.

  7. What actually happened. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    Intel got wind of IBM's announcement and rushed out their own. The end.

    I was skeptical that there really were people who saw them and wondered "Wow, engineers in both companies made these discoveries today?", but a look at the Slashdot story shows the first comment (in my display, anyway) asking "Two breakthroughs in one day?" (Score:5, Insightful)

  8. John Titor by xero314 · · Score: 1

    You claiming John Titor works (well, will work) for Intel? That would certainly explain a lot.
    Next thing you know we will find out that IBM has had this technology for a while and even used it in the 5100.

  9. Why Adhere? by camperdave · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ... enabling continued adherence to Moore's Law

    I don't understand why you would want to adhere to Moore's law. If I were able to make chips 10 times denser, why would I not market that right away rather than waiting for 3-5 years needed to follow the law.

    --
    When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    1. Re:Why Adhere? by noidentity · · Score: 1

      You think Gitmo is bad; breaking the "laws" of the universe really gets you in deep Guano.

    2. Re:Why Adhere? by greylion3 · · Score: 1

      If I were able to make chips 10 times denser, why would I not market that right away rather than waiting for 3-5 years

      So, you'd rather sell the next-over generation of chips right away and make x billion dollars, than stretch it out over 3-5 years and make 3-5 times x billion dollars, with you being practically guaranteed to stay ahead of the competition the whole time?

      That'll go down really well with the CFO.

      "Hey, a goose that lays golden eggs ... damn, I'm hungry.."

      --
      Privacy begins with ..
    3. Re:Why Adhere? by camperdave · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Moore's law is not a law of the universe. It is merely an average rate of development of an industry. It's like saying cars are 2% more fuel efficient each consecutive year. It wouldn't break any law of the universe to suddenly release an SUV that was 10% more fuel efficient than last year's model.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    4. Re:Why Adhere? by wall0159 · · Score: 1

      ...because you'd want to maximise your profit by not selling your latest and greatest until you have to.. supply and demand, you see...

    5. Re:Why Adhere? by noidentity · · Score: 1

      And similarily, it wouldn't break any law of the universe to suddenly make something go faster than the speed of light (or other such thing considered impossible, if going faster than light is logically impossible), it would simply mean that we were wrong about that "law" of the universe.

      But yes, I realize that "Moore's Law" would be better named "Moore's Observed Trend that is cited way more than it deserves".

  10. Don't mess with Mary Gates by derdesh · · Score: 1

    She's one tough lady!

  11. Mac transition to Intel by jsantos · · Score: 1

    Maybe Intel being farther ahead with this technology was a big part of why Apple moved to Intel processors.

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  12. AMD competitive? by ZX3+Junglist · · Score: 1

    Largely, the consumer base has been watching the competition between Intel and AMD. Intel is now leading AMD in die size, with 45nm now ready for green light. From what all the watchers seemed to think, AMD was shaking in its boots with the earlier hints from Intel on the new gate architecture. But, if you'll notice from TFA: no fewer than two AMD scientists worked on this project. What do you think?

  13. Exley, Question by Khyber · · Score: 1

    Ever hear of Ovonic Unified Memory? http://www.ovonyx.com/tech_html.html With this technology, silicon may be put into it's place for memory purposes. Bye, Flash. My only question is, could this be used for processors, given the statement in this link "OUM offers a way to realize full system-on-a-chip capability through integrating unified memory, linear, and logic on the same silicon chip." ? Do you think this would be a better way to go with processor cache, higher densities, less heat, and semi-equivalent access speeds?

    --
    Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
  14. What will this do to the price of hafnium? by Richard+Kirk · · Score: 1
    I thought I know most of my elements. I had heard of hafnium, but I had no idea where it was in the periodic table. It is in the transitions, towards the bottom left. You regularly hear of some 'breakthrough' semiconductor made from gallium, aluminium, arsenic, tellurium, buckytubes, Higgs bosons and lard, but this is hafnium with our old friend silicon. Not the first thing you might pick when trying to find a replacement for silicon dioxide. It has a large capture cross-section for thermal neutrons...

    Which reminded me. Back in the 1930's, gadolinium was found to have a huge capture cross section for thermal neutrons. One of the people who discovered this managed to corner over 60% of the world's supply of gadolinium, but failed to make his fortune ( or so I remember. I have just been searching for some confirmation of this but no luck ). It is found at a few percent with zirconium, so it isn't exactly rare. However, if you happened to have a jar of the stuff on the shelf, you must be wondering what it is worth.

    Almost a shame it is true. It would have made a magnificent scam.