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EU Bans Sock-Puppet Blogs

PhilipMarlowe9000 writes in with news of a new EU directive that will take effect in the UK at the end of this year to ban "sock-puppet" reviews or websites, part of an EU-wide overhaul of consumer laws. From the article: "Businesses that write fake blog entries or create whole wesbites purporting to be created by customers will fall foul of a European directive banning them from 'falsely representing oneself as a consumer.' From December 31, when the change becomes law in the UK, they can be named and shamed by trading standards or taken to court. The Times has learnt that the new regulations also will apply to authors who praise their own books under a fake identity on websites such as Amazon."

23 of 393 comments (clear)

  1. Before anyone says anything about free speech by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Please keep in mind that fraud is not generally protected speech, particularly when it relates to commercial speech.

    1. Re:Before anyone says anything about free speech by MillionthMonkey · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Free speech isn't free if it has "ifs, ands, or buts".

      No it isn't. This, however, is commercial speech, fraudulently pretending to be free speech, as part of a ruse to impress people. Commercial speech identifiable as such is known to suffer the trustworthiness problems typical of commercial speech. If a corporation sends its marketing department to blogspot and creates 100 blogs talking about how cool its products are, that's fraud. The company is misrepresenting itself and concealing a conflict of interest. I mean, duh. Even in the crazy United States we have laws saying you can't make ads disguised to look like newspaper articles unless you print ADVERTISEMENT at the bottom so everyone knows you're probably full of it. Free speech is not going to last very long if we use it to excuse cheap commercial hijinks.

    2. Re:Before anyone says anything about free speech by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The speech is free. The speaker is not allowed to pretend to be someone else.

    3. Re:Before anyone says anything about free speech by ricree · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I don't think that you can really use a slippery slope argument here. There have been limits on speech for pretty much as long as the concept of free speech has been around. While there have certainly been abuses, fraud, libel, and other limitations haven't destroyed free speech yet. As far as I can tell, this is simply a logical extension of these limitations. Furthermore, this doesn't effect the content of what people can say. It appears to mostly be a limitation on how people are allowed to represent themselves. The companies are still quite free to heap praise on their products, they just aren't allowed to lie about who they are while doing it.

    4. Re:Before anyone says anything about free speech by Simon+Garlick · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Everyone ignore the posts above by poster "iminplaya". As a registered sex offender and convicted child rapist, he doesn't deserve to be heard in this forum.

    5. Re:Before anyone says anything about free speech by Miseph · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Your view is overly simplistic.

      You ignore the fact that corporations are not people, and as such do not (and should not) have the inalienable rights of a human being. You also assume that the right to free speech trumps all other rights (such as life, property, autonomy, etc.), which is completely untrue, not to mention unjust and far more dangerous than limits on free speech.

      Try yelling "fire" in a crowded theater and telling the theater staff that you have First Amendment Rights when they remove you from the premises and you'll find out just how little that applies to private persons on private property.

      The Right to Free Speech does not, in fact, apply to that speech which is specifically designed to be malicious, it never has, and such an idea flies in the face of it's very origins (see: Immanuel Kant). Trying to apply it to such actually weakens the idea, and perverts the intent of free speech. Fraud, slander, and incitement are all directly opposed to "free", and as such are NOT protected as free speech.

      I also wonder why so many people are convinced that specific limits on free speech are a new thing (they aren't), and that such limits make it impossible to protect speech which needs to be free (it hasn't).

      --
      Try not to take me more seriously than I take myself.
    6. Re:Before anyone says anything about free speech by Simon+Garlick · · Score: 3, Insightful

      My previous comment is, to the best of my knowledge, untrue... but don't you dare restrict my right to say it!

      Oh wait... maybe free speech ISN'T an absolute.

    7. Re:Before anyone says anything about free speech by MillionthMonkey · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You ignore the fact that corporations are not people, and as such do not (and should not) have the inalienable rights of a human being.

      I agree with the rest of what you said but this statement is completely false. Or at least, there is no distinction to make between individuals and corporations as far as political and commercial speech are concerned. One axis is independent of the other. Microsoft has a right to express a political view, even on technological matters, and individuals have a right to engage in commercial speech and sell things. The restrictions on speech are determined by the nature of the speech itself and not by who is making it.
    8. Re:Before anyone says anything about free speech by shawb · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Legally speaking, corporations are people to some extent. Within limits, a corporation shares a large subset of the rights and responsibilities of a person, the name itself being derived from the Latin term for body, definitively meaning that a corporation is to be treated as somebody.

      --
      I'll never make that mistake again, reading the experts' opinions. - Feynman
    9. Re:Before anyone says anything about free speech by Atlantis-Rising · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Because such a blanket statement as "Congress shall make no law... abridging the freedom of speech" is so blanket and vague as to be entirely useless.

      The fact is, there is no such thing as 'freedom of speech'- the fact that we live in a human society instantly precludes that blanket statement, just as it prevents any blanket clause dealing with religion or association.

      What people do not realize is that statements like the Canadian constitution, which says:

      The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.

      Actually strengthen the exercise of those rights and freedoms, by allowing solid guidelines to be coherently laid down. Absolutities are only for tyrants and ideologues- the rest of us have to live in the real world.
      --
      "It is possible to commit no errors and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." -Peak Performance
    10. Re:Before anyone says anything about free speech by jcr · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The expression of an idea does not bring harm.

      Sorry, it's not that simple. Threatening to kill someone does indeed harm the person threatened; they are dreprived of their peace of mind, and that's why we have such things as laws against verbal assault and incitement, and restraining orders that can compel a person not to communicate with the target of their malice.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    11. Re:Before anyone says anything about free speech by QuickFox · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Okay, I'll express the threats to your kids, that should be the most effective arrangement. I hope you have kids of, say, four to ten years of age. I can be real scary because I'm very large and have a very deep voice, and I'm a good actor. I'll be extremely threatening and ominous.

      Your kids will be scared stiff over and over. What a pleasure! And I'll make a million in the process!

      You won't know if I'm serious and willing to go through with the killing, so you'd better pay up. Just to be sure, I'll also talk to your young wife repeatedly. Maybe I'll casually carry something that looks like the hacked-off arm of a child. Stuff like that. In due time she should be very, very worried about her kids' lives. Or maybe I'll just talk about hacking their legs off or something, that might be more effective. What do you think?

      I'll find some really effective things to say to her. And I'll be very, very convincing. I can make a very convincing sociopath.

      Repeated phone calls all through the night might be a nice touch. I'll also shout threats outside your home at random times day and night, speaking slowly and ominously. Maybe I'll bring a megaphone. No restrictions, remember?

      And if there's a trial -- for example if your kids mysteriously get hurt a few times before you finally come to your senses and pay me -- don't worry about trying to get any witnesses. I'll see to it that any witnesses you find get scared and get paid. They won't have any incentive at all to tell the truth, since lying in court is fully accepted.

      No restrictions, remember?

      Just in case somebody doesn't notice the irony and takes the above seriously, all of the above is irony and none of it is intended to be taken seriously. It's a completely fictitious illustration of the consequences of the parent post. I have no intentions whatsoever of threatening or hurting anyone.

      --
      Terrorists can't threaten a country's freedom and democracy. Only lawmakers and voters can do that.
    12. Re:Before anyone says anything about free speech by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      There is a big difference between anonymity and actively pretending to be someone else. The whole point of the legislation seems to be to stop the former, not the latter.

      No, the legislation seems to be about honesty vs. lying and deceiving. If a company lies to their customers, making falls statements abou their products, the I don't think this should be protected by free speech. Not allowing companies to set up fake website pretending to be from happy customers, or not allowing that companies otherwise claim in blogs etc.: "I'm a happy customer, this product i so great." has nothing to do with free speech in my opinion, but only with requiring companies to not mislead the public.

    13. Re:Before anyone says anything about free speech by mwanaheri · · Score: 3, Insightful

      As with all of these freedoms: your right ends precisely where higher rights of others begin. That's why you may get trouble if you insult others.

      --
      Idha khatabahum lijahiluna qalu salaman
    14. Re:Before anyone says anything about free speech by nickco3 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Also, European human rights legislation only applies to us actual humans, not legal persons. Corporations claiming human rights is a feature of the US legal system.

      --
      -- Nick "Hallo this is Beel Gates, und I pronounce weendows as ... WEENdows"
    15. Re:Before anyone says anything about free speech by rbanffy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The speech is free. The speaker is not allowed to pretend to be someone else.

      I would rephrase that as "The speech is free. The speaker is not allowed to con people by pretending to be something he/she is not.

    16. Re:Before anyone says anything about free speech by pureevilmatt · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Companies aren't individuals nor should they have the rights of individuals.

    17. Re:Before anyone says anything about free speech by uglyduckling · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Free speech is one of the few things in life that is absolute. Either you have free speech, or you do not. Any sort of restriction, no matter how small, moves you from the category of having free speech to that of not having free speech.

      That very clever ideology, but it's profoundly wrong. All freedoms require restrictions in order to function. That sounds like a logical contradiction, but it's not.

      Imagine this: you and I are sitting in a room. Every time you open your mouth to speak, I scream "SHUT UUUUUUUUPPP!" at the top of my voice. I am abusing my freedom of speech in order to curtail yours. Based on your ideology it is necessary to allow that situation because we can't limit 'freedom'. In fact, the way to ensure freedom is to apply fair rules, such that exercising my freedom cannot unfairly curtail yours. The rules needed will depend on the context: in a public debate that may mean turn-taking, in a restaurant it may mean sufficient spaces between tables and removing anyone that behaves like I did towards you in my imaginary situation.

      Freedom without any limits or restrictions is a ridiculous myth. The difficulty is who gets to decide what rules are needed to provide freedom, who makes sure that the rules themselves don't become a kind of abuse, and who enforces those rules.

  2. Re:Ban sock puppet politicians by KonoWatakushi · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I know a few politicians I consider sock puppets for other entities. Can we ban them too? To hell with banning them, they should be charged with treason, and punished appropriately; ie. with death.

    The government should represent its people, and politicians should be held to very high standards. Legal bribery, or any other means of subverting our government are simply unacceptable, and should be considered no less seriously than premeditated murder. In fact, as the current administration demonstrates, it is often much worse.
  3. Name a right that is unlimited by Infonaut · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Either speech is free or it isn't, no matter what convenient label you want to put it under.

    That's an easy position to take, because it is the expression of an ideal. In the real world, rights clash all the time. The rights of Individual A, when they come into conflict with those of Individual B, or of society at large, can't be absolute.

    My right to defend myself does not give me the right to shoot someone in the head when they try to pick my pocket. My right to own property doesn't mean that I can drill down and inject anthrax into the groundwater. My right of free speech doesn't mean that I can spam millions of email users without consequence. It also doesn't mean that I can advertise Fruit Loops cereal as a cure for cancer. In Abstract World it sounds great to let the buyer beware, but just imagine how much of a drag that would be on society. Transaction costs would go up, because much more due dilligence would need to be done, just to conduct a simple purchase. Those with more free time and more resources would be able to conduct due dilligence. Everyone else would be put at a substantial disadvantage. That's a perversion of free speech, which is designed to protect political speech, not the fleecing of other citizens.

    As a side note, your slippery slope argument may apply in some countries, but not in the United States.I don't know how it is elsewhere, but in the United States, commercial speech has been granted more 1st Amendment protection over the past few decades, not less.

    --
    Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
  4. This only applies to the US by MaGogue · · Score: 3, Insightful
    From the above Wikipedia link

    Corporate personhood is a term used to describe the legal fiction used within United States law that a corporation, under the concept of legal entity, has a limited subset of the same constitutional rights as a human being
    Here in the EU, there is a very clear distinction between a person and a company.
  5. Re:Corporate personhood... by Tim+C · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Companies are considered people because this enables them to limit their financial liability and encourages their directors to take greater risks.

    In what way does that require the corporation to be a person? Surely it's just as easy for the law to say "directors and other employees of corporations are protected from personal financial liability in the event of corporate financial liability" as it is to say "corporations are people"? The former, while possibly becoming a long list, limits the protection and rights to exactly what they need to be. The latter potentially opens up all sorts of problems.

    To draw an analogy to computing (yes, I realise that's the wrong way...), when setting up a firewall you don't allow all except known bad stuff, you block all except known good stuff. It's a little more work, but a damn sight safer in the long run.

    Treating corporations as people is a shortcut that leads to all sorts of potential abuses and excesses. It's not even as though your country has a shortage of people able and willing to sit down and thrash out the details of a saner law...

  6. Legal overdrive by suv4x4 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    When a new law is written and put into action, people's debate center around two opposing opinions: is it good, or is it bad.

    Granted, every law can be bad or good, but we're missing the big picture. Have you seen the proposed European consitution? The Bible's both testaments are nothing compared to it.

    Every time you put a law about something, you need to be really friggin sure that the right solution is *legal*. Otherwise we end up in a system so complicated and flawed (every law is imperfect, you know this), that nobody understands it at all, and the rules are so many and in many cases conflicting with each other, that the only way to apply them is selectively and "with a spin", depending on the lawyer/prosecutor/citizen bias.

    We all fall pray to lawyers and the juridical system setting traps for us on every step to doing something.

    Should fake blogs and reviews be banned? They shouldn't be encouraged, but a law is excessive. I mean, how many times should Sony /for example/ face public humiliation and mockery before they decide that this wasn't a good idea to begin with?

    Fake marketing right now is, in most instances, easily recognizable. If we decide to patch the situation with a bunch of "moral" and "smart" laws, then the corporations in question will just get stealthier, and hire few more lawyers to let them workaround the law.

    In the end, we gain nothing, except more complexity, and more lawyers. Great.