Geo-Engineering to stop Climate Change

MattSparkes writes "Following the latest report of the United Nations climate change panel, there has been a flurry of renewed interest in so-called geo-engineering. This is the theory of using technological schemes to stop climate change. These can range from sun-shades orbiting the Earth, to pumping millions of tonnes of sulfur into the atmosphere to the bizarre idea of painting the ground white to reflect more light. Let's reduce our emissions now, before I have to go and paint my roof bright white." Thanks to jamie for pointing out another potential solution of seeding the southern oceans with iron to spur plankton growth.

Comments

anything

[polar red]

anything to stop the people from acting responsibly?

Re:anything

[CastrTroy]

This kind of crap just amazes me. People think up trillion dollar plans like putting up million of tiny umbrellas into geosynchronous orbit to deflect sunlight, but we can't get people to just not drive SUVs, or even go so low as to take the bus, or even walk to the store which is only a block away. I've never owned a car, and I'm really not convinced that I ever want to. There's only a couple instance where I would really want a car, like picking up groceries, but they have a delivery service anyway, for when I want a lot of groceries. Going away for the weekend isn't too much of a problem. Renting a car for 1 weekend a month costs less than most people's insurance.

Re:anything

[spellraiser]

The problem is that there's just too many people. Trying to control or influence all of them is nigh on impossible, short of making the things you describe illegal, which would probably lead to a revolt.

A large segment of the population, any population, will always be stupid, thoughtless, and self-centered.

It doesn't help that the fastest growing and arguably the most powerful ideology in America today, evangelism, actively encourages bigotry, narrow-mindedness and a contempt for scientific principles that would be funny if it weren't so dangerous. And oh, the icing on the proverbial cake is that it doesn't matter what we do with the planet anyway, because it's all going to pass away any day now, and the faithful few will be taken to a paradise where they don't have to worry about anything at all, while the faithless multitudes will burn in hell forever.

Re:anything

[Lazerf4rt]

People think up trillion dollar plans like putting up million of tiny umbrellas into geosynchronous orbit to deflect sunlight, but we can't get people to just not drive SUVs.

It's the same phenomenon at a different scale. Man sees himself as the ruler and conqueror of his environment, instead of coexisting with it. That's the root problem. If people realized that the earth was, literally, a physical extension of themselves, maybe they wouldn't find it so easy to abuse.

Re:anything

[Critical Facilities]

While I agree that the orbiting umbrellas is a ridiculous proposal, I think you're looking at things from a skewed perspective with regard to automobiles.

First of all, you obviously live in a major metropolitan area to be able to not own a car (that is, you must have copious and effective mass transit available to you). For many people across the country, owning a car is not an option if they are to be able to get ANYWHERE (see work, school, hospital, etc). While I agree that if one can feasibly find alternative means of transportation, then one should opt for that method, but we shouldn't demonize the very idea of owning a car under the assumption that the only reason people do so is out of selfishness/laziness.

Second, the problem isn't in owning SUV's or other gas guzzling cars, it's the fact that those cars (and car makers, oil companies, and government decision makers) are forcing us to power those vehicles with petroleum. The idea of getting rid of these vehicles is a crude attempt to treat the symptom and not the disease. Don't make it a bad thing for the family with 4 kids to drive an SUV because they need the space, make it bad that no one seems interested in solutions to powering these vehicles differently.

In short, just keep in mind that your particular circumstance (i.e. being able to walk to the store and carry your groceries home) isn't necessarily everyone else's (like the mother of 4 with the SUV...imagine her carrying those groceries when the nearest store is 7 miles away)

Re:anything

[FooAtWFU]

People think up trillion dollar plans like putting up million of tiny umbrellas into geosynchronous orbit to deflect sunlight .... I've never owned a car, and I'm really not convinced that I ever want to.

Thoughts are cheap. Moving to an urban center where there's a grocery store a block away, and decent public transit, is much more expensive. (And there's probably less fresh clean air, fewer trees, less green space, more noise.) If you're already comfortably settled in NYC or Toronto or Los Angeles or something like that, good for you! Cities are neat. And if you're complaining about people who are already in a big city, that's one thing. But I live in a mid-sized city (200,000) and our bus service is... pretty marginal. You could probably use it to commute if you really had to (and were willing to walk a good distance to get there), but you really need to drive if you want to get to half the places worth getting to.

Myself, I drive a little old 1988 Volkswagen Fox that gets awesome gas mileage. Not that I've ever had to drive it very far, either.

Re:anything

[Hamilton Publius]

An experiment that hints we are wrong on climate change
Nigel Calder, former editor of New Scientist, says the orthodoxy must be challenged

When politicians and journalists declare that the science of global warming is settled, they show a regrettable ignorance about how science works. We were treated to another dose of it recently when the experts of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change issued the Summary for Policymakers that puts the political spin on an unfinished scientific dossier on climate change due for publication in a few months' time. They declared that most of the rise in temperatures since the mid-20th century is very likely due to man-made greenhouse gases.

The small print explains "very likely" as meaning that the experts who made the judgment felt 90% sure about it. Older readers may recall a press conference at Harwell in 1958 when Sir John Cockcroft, Britain's top nuclear physicist, said he was 90% certain that his lads had achieved controlled nuclear fusion. It turned out that he was wrong. More positively, a 10% uncertainty in any theory is a wide open breach for any latterday Galileo or Einstein to storm through with a better idea. That is how science really works.

Twenty years ago, climate research became politicised in favour of one particular hypothesis, which redefined the subject as the study of the effect of greenhouse gases. As a result, the rebellious spirits essential for innovative and trustworthy science are greeted with impediments to their research careers. And while the media usually find mavericks at least entertaining, in this case they often imagine that anyone who doubts the hypothesis of man-made global warming must be in the pay of the oil companies. As a result, some key discoveries in climate research go almost unreported.

Enthusiasm for the global-warming scare also ensures that heatwaves make headlines, while contrary symptoms, such as this winter's billion-dollar loss of Californian crops to unusual frost, are relegated to the business pages. The early arrival of migrant birds in spring provides colourful evidence for a recent warming of the northern lands. But did anyone tell you that in east Antarctica the Adélie penguins and Cape petrels are turning up at their spring nesting sites around nine days later than they did 50 years ago? While sea-ice has diminished in the Arctic since 1978, it has grown by 8% in the Southern Ocean.

So one awkward question you can ask, when you're forking out those extra taxes for climate change, is "Why is east Antarctica getting colder?" It makes no sense at all if carbon dioxide is driving global warming. While you're at it, you might inquire whether Gordon Brown will give you a refund if it's confirmed that global warming has stopped. The best measurements of global air temperatures come from American weather satellites, and they show wobbles but no overall change since 1999.

That levelling off is just what is expected by the chief rival hypothesis, which says that the sun drives climate changes more emphatically than greenhouse gases do. After becoming much more active during the 20th century, the sun now stands at a high but roughly level state of activity. Solar physicists warn of possible global cooling, should the sun revert to the lazier mood it was in during the Little Ice Age 300 years ago.

Climate history and related archeology give solid support to the solar hypothesis. The 20th-century episode, or Modern Warming, was just the latest in a long string of similar events produced by a hyperactive sun, of which the last was the Medieval Warming.

The Chinese population doubled then, while in Europe the Vikings and cathedral-builders prospered. Fascinating relics of earlier episodes come from the Swiss Alps, with the rediscovery in 2003 of a long-forgotten pass used intermittently whenever the world was warm.

What does the Intergovernmental Panel do with such emphatic evidence for an alternation of warm and cold periods, linked to solar activity and going on

Re:anything

[ajs]

Actually, not driving SUVs doesn't help much. The real alternative to SUVs (and trucks, minivans, etc.) is lighter vehicles. Hybrids sound good, but really their efficiency is almost entirely based on their weight, not the fact that the oil is being burned at a powerplant rather than in your car. In fact, power generation is the largest contributor to greenhouse gasses.

What would help quite a lot is converting from coal and petroleum to nuclear power generation. That would pretty much solve the problem over-night, slashing our CO2 production by nearly 50%! What impact that would have on the climate... isn't actually 100% clear. It certainly is likely to have some impact, though.

Personally, I'm not concerned. I'd rather address mercury pollution than greenhouse emissions any day of the week. After all, warmer weather never caused my father to stop being able to tie his own shoes .... :-/

Re:anything

[UbuntuDupe]

Trying to control or influence all of them is nigh on impossible, short of making the things you describe illegal, which would probably lead to a revolt.

False. If you just assess the actual costs of these activities on the people that do them, they have a strong financial incentive not to do them -- this is how it works with every product on the market. You don't need to, for example, encourage people to avoiding eating "unnecessary" foods -- the "unnecssary" expense already does that. If food was as socialized as roads and air currently are, I can 100% guarantee you we'd see proposals to give tax credits to people who exercise less than 1 hour per week in the hopes that this would lead them to request less food from the Food Department. (Just as you see proposals for tax credits for switching to specific energy-efficient technologies.) People who eat too much would be derided as "stupid, thoughtless, and self-centered."

If you simply taxed in proportion to the costs imposed on others, people would be free to do whichever energy-saving alternative is least inconvenient for them. Even if they do nothing, hey -- at least you have a huge war chest with which to research better technologies or reduce the impact.

If you can't bring yourself to advocate that, you have to keep in mind any other solution is probably less efficient. And if you can't trust a government to administer that properly, you have to think about what it would do with a less efficient solution.

Re:anything

[qazsedcft]

What would help quite a lot is converting from coal and petroleum to nuclear power generation. That would pretty much solve the problem over-night, slashing our CO2 production by nearly 50%! What impact that would have on the climate... isn't actually 100% clear. It certainly is likely to have some impact, though.

I agree, but the problem is that a lot of these coal plants are in countries where there are more urgent problems to solve than CO2 emissions. For example, here in Poland over 95 percent of power plants are coal powered. And not the efficient 21 st century type, but the 40 year-old post-communist era type. However, nobody is going to invest in modernizing these power plants when there are so many other infrastructure problems, like the lack of a national highway system (ironically).

Re:anything

[jav1231]

Yep. We're all making the assumptions that Global Warming isn't a natural cycle of change. What if, like a hoard of scientists believe (granted, not the "gods" most environmentalists want to agree with), it is a natural warming? Then our efforts to reverse this are a perversion. We, then, become what we claim we loath: someone negatively impacting the environment. But hey, we can sit back on our fat grant checks living la vita green.

Re:anything

[nightfire-unique]

Firstly, I respect your choice not to drive.

Having said that, I do drive. I actually ride to work in the summer (mainly for health), but in the winter, I drive. Yes, I burn oil to do this, and that is a very bad thing. I will move to electric the second I can afford an electric car. I will be an early adopter.

I think what you need to consider is that "this kind of crap" is not just needed because many of us drive oil burning cars. There are many sources of CO2 emissions and you are 90% as guilty as I am at producing them. You and I are westerners. We waste enormously. I don't know if you realize how much you waste, relative to the vast majority of the inhabitants on this planet.

So you don't drive. Cool. I appreciate that. Do you own a leather couch? A private condo? A house? Do you take hot showers in the morning? That water was likely heated by electricity generated at a coal power plant.

Do you eat processed food? Lots of meat? Do you take jets to go on vacation? Perhaps you buy musical instruments? Computers?

Cars are ONE waste of energy, but there are thousands.

Living "in harmony with nature" to some people means more than not driving, it means abandoning our modern society: the chemicals we use to grow enough food to feed everyone, the dams we use to prevent flooding, the fire planes we use to stop forest fires, the hot showers, the delivery of luxury sofas, and abandoning worldwide travel.

To me it means nuclear power and emission free transportation. If the science supports "meddling" with atmospheric properties (and I don't think it does in this case) then I don't have a problem with it to preserve our way of life.

Don't forget - you will always eat. You and I are rich. It is the poor who will starve when the price of food triples.

Re:anything

[GooberToo]

Don't make it a bad thing for the family with 4 kids to drive an SUV because they need the space

Simple fact is, most people don't need the space! People like to pretend that families never left home until the SUV came out. BS! Fact is, very, very, very few people actually need an SUV, 4x4 truck, dully truck, or other such gas hog. Fact is, most people can do quite well in a midsize car.

If you want to argue their right to own it...fine...but please stop with the false claims that most families need SUVs as that is complete garbage.

Re:anything

[KKlaus]

The plans are kind of stupid on the whole, but (no offense) so is yours. After 100's if not thousands of years of countless people saying "but if we just used less" with regard to common resources and being ignored, you'd think they'd stop suggesting it.

Look at it this way: anyone that's predisposed to use less for no return to themselves is selected against evolutionarily. So it's not surprising that things have turned out this way. PEOPLE ARE NOT, AND NEVER WILL BE, THAT ALTRUISTIC. MOVE ON.

It would be nice, just like it would be nice if people weren't violent, but unfortunately they are, and we need to realize that stepping backwards as a race or nation is a last ditch solution, not the first. Even if SUV drivers are annoying.

Re:anything

[Critical Facilities]

but please stop with the false claims that most families need SUVs as that is complete garbage.

I never claimed that. Nevertheless, you seem to get my basic point which is, let's solve the PARENT issue of what powers these vehicles and stop bickering over whether this person NEEDS the extra space/horsewpower/4x4/etc. I think the idea of conservation is obviously a good one, but I think that sometimes people like to throw this argument up as a red herring to distract from the much harder to answer question of "what are we going to do to reduce out dependency on oil?". I'm not suggesting that I have the answer (I wish I did), I just would like to see us all work on the same team toward a common goal rather than just start with the infighting.

Re:anything

[wrook]

I understand what you are saying, but I think you've missed one very important issue.

If you want to reduce your energy usage, it makes sense to actually look at the impact each of these things has towards energy usage. I did this and was surprised by the result.

Yes, taking an airplane is unbelievably wasteful. We should all avoid it if at all possible. But the biggest ones in my life (in order) are:

1) Car. And this is with a TDI Golf. I got rid of it last week.
2) Heat. Sigh... this one is hard to fix. I'd like to get a ground source heat pump. But I can't afford the $10,000 it will cost right now. After I've saved up some from not driving a car it should be a sinch, though. Since last year though I've turned down the thermostat in the winter 2 degrees and disabled the AC (everything under 40C is tolerable
anyway -- over 40C, I wear a wet T-shirt and it seems to help).
3) Dryer. Air drying clothes isn't actually too painful for me, so why the heck not?
4) Imported food. I live in a cold climate so the grocery stores are full of imported food. But local food is sooo much tastier. I'm trying to improve my diet by only buying local. I've found the easiest way is to contact local organic farmers. Strangely it appears to be cheaper than buying the crap in the grocery store anyway.
5) Electric lights. I've switched over to compact flourescent. I'm also trying to make sure that I only have 1 or 2 lights on in the house at any one time at night.

So far these measures seem to have reduced my personal energy usage to about 1/3 of what it was before. And I don't seem to be unhappy because of it. I *did* have to change my lifestyle. But not in a bad way. Reducing the crap that I buy (packaging, electronic goodies that I don't actually need, etc, etc) should have a positive influence as well.

Trust me... These are *small* measures that will only be difficult for the first few weeks. True, some people need a car. But *most* people don't (there are far more people in cities than not). But even people who must have a car can reduce *a lot* in other ways. Hell, if you are in the country, you can buy your own windmill. That's something I can't do in the city.

Re:anything

[ScentCone]

How come Europe has so much better public transit then?

Population density. Ancient civilization centers (most US cities haven't been around as long as many individual European townhouses).

If you're pretending that the geography and history of the two scenarios is the same, then right there you've completely killed off any credibility you have on this entire subject. You want to reduce emissions in a way that actually matters? Why aren't you spending all of this energy preaching nuclear energy? One or two nukes, in place of plants burning coal and natural gas, will do more than taking away the minivans of every family in a large city and replacing them with cars so small it takes three of them to move the same group of people between the same two points.

I'm one of the evil SUV owners you're blathering about. I telecommute at least 4 days a week, with no need to even start the vehicle at all. But then, some days I'm driving around with 500 pounds of rackmount servers as payload. Or six people, two dogs, and a big pile of gear. Renting a vehicle large enough to handle that, 4 or 5 times per month, would cost at least twice what it costs me just to own the vehicle and use it when I need it (not to mention I don't have to get transportation to where the vehicle is, and back again when I'm done). In heavy snow, when our local public transportation essentially fails entirely, and the grocery delivery services all say they can't function, and all of my neighbors' compact cars are completely useless, guess who is always asked to get people around, including kids to the doctor, etc?

Assuming you can lump all truck owners into one big Evil Bucket, while completely skipping over the fact that electricy generation is far, far more dirty and carbonating than the difference between an SUV and some other passenger vehicle that can even approach the same carrying capacity - that's just intellectual dishonesty. When I do social things with several friends, we take one less efficient vehicle (mine), and leave three other vehicles parked. Suddenly, my lower-mileage vehicle is getting the best mileage per person that we could possibly arrange. Evil! That's me.

Re:anything

[virtualsobriety]

Instead of thinking of ways to mess with this unimaginably huge closed system we are living in, Why can't we just accept that this planet/solar system/universe is more complex than SUV's releasing Carbon into the Air and let the Earth take its own course. While I think every effort should be made to improve our current technologies and move away from a costly oil based economy, It is irresponsible and short sighted to throw up your hands, claim carbon, oil and SUV's are the source of a slight/gradual change of what was the norm for a short period of time 30 years ago and continue this path of panic. Real scientists who do real research aren't in agreement as to wether or not natural cycles are the cause of "global warming" (a terribly misleading and politicized name) why are the masses? There was a hole in the o-zone layer, we stopped pumping Chlorine and Flourine into the air and the Earth is taking its course to solve the problem...Anyone who thinks more action than that is warrented in this instance is uninformed or irresponsible.

Re:anything

[electroniceric]

Twenty years ago, climate research became politicised in favour of one particular hypothesis, which redefined the subject as the study of the effect of greenhouse gases. As a result, the rebellious spirits essential for innovative and trustworthy science are greeted with impediments to their research careers.

Evidently the scientist in Mr. Caldwell and yourself feels no need to produce repeatable evidence for this claim. Show us the data, or quit repeating hearsay.

And while the media usually find mavericks at least entertaining, in this case they often imagine that anyone who doubts the hypothesis of man-made global warming must be in the pay of the oil companies. As a result, some key discoveries in climate research go almost unreported.

Is that why a guy who assumed the title of State Climatologist so he could sow doubt about global warming appears on CNN at least an order of magnitude more often than one of NASA's most senior and respected scientists? That definitely sounds like a media cover-up to me. C'mon, man, if you're going to use the tobacco lobby's disinformation techniques, at least use them with some finesse so they aren't just flopping around in the open all exposed and gooey.

He saw from compilations of weather satellite data that cloudiness varies according to how many atomic particles are coming in from exploded stars. More cosmic rays, more clouds. The sun's magnetic field bats away many of the cosmic rays, and its intensification during the 20th century meant fewer cosmic rays, fewer clouds, and a warmer world. On the other hand the Little Ice Age was chilly because the lazy sun let in more cosmic rays, leaving the world cloudier and gloomier.

Clearly such mundane and well-researched explanations for warming as carbon-driven greenhouse effect must not be right, if far-fetched ideas like cosmic rays could be invoked to magically produce clouds that give us the explanation we hope is true. Who needs Occam's Razor when we've got Occam's Crazy Straw?!? As it happens, my father has spent years studying cosmic ray showers. His group, which works out of a ragtag lab called Los Alamos, is obvious unfamiliar with the power of Occam's Crazy Straw, so they have made no predictions of global temperature change whatsoever.

So one awkward question you can ask, when you're forking out those extra taxes for climate change, is "Why is east Antarctica getting colder?" It makes no sense at all if carbon dioxide is driving global warming. While you're at it, you might inquire whether Gordon Brown will give you a refund if it's confirmed that global warming has stopped. The best measurements of global air temperatures come from American weather satellites, and they show wobbles but no overall change since 1999.

Amazing - someone must have broken into your ISP and blocked: http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/, because it shows exactly the opposite effect (strong increases in surface air temps, offset by cooling in the stratosphere). Of course those silly NASA scientists are morons compared with some cold-fusion type cranks in a Danish basement producing unpublicable results. And as has been explained here countless times (though sadly without use of Occam's Crazy Straw), the word "global" next to "warming" means "averaging all over the globe", and therefore local cooling is not only permitted, it's often expected.

You have done an amazing job researching and writing a book that incorporates absolutely no verifiable scientific fact, but relies exclusively on crackpots, unlikely theories, and misinterpretation of existing science, and you are to be roundly commended for your Herculean efforts. Move over Intelligent Design, there's a new pseudoscience in town.

Re:anything

[Spoke]

Enthusiasm for the global-warming scare also ensures that heatwaves make headlines, while contrary symptoms, such as this winter's billion-dollar loss of Californian crops to unusual frost, are relegated to the business pages.

I stopped taking the author seriously after I read this line. The author obviously doesn't understand global warming, either and is using examples out of context to support his theory.

Global warming will cause an overall warming effect across the entire planet. Over the entire planet, some areas of the earth will cool significantly, some will not change at all, and others will get warmer. Weather in general will get more extreme - This means more drought, more heatwaves and yes, more freezes and freak blizzards.

While sea-ice has diminished in the Arctic since 1978, it has grown by 8% in the Southern Ocean.

Nice, so give a hard number for how much ice has increased in the souther ocean, but decline to state by what percentage sea ice has declined in the Arctic. I suspect that Arctic ice has decreased by significantly more than 8%. I'm also sure that the collapse of that huge ice shelf in the Antarctic may have had something to do with the increase in sea ice in the southern oceans.

Re:anything

[sponglish]

Clearly such mundane and well-researched explanations for warming as carbon-driven greenhouse effect must not be right, if far-fetched ideas like cosmic rays could be invoked to magically produce clouds that give us the explanation we hope is true.

Shazam! You write it and it appears:

A team of more than 60 scientists from around the world are preparing to conduct a large-scale experiment using a particle accelerator in Geneva, Switzerland, to replicate the effect of cosmic rays hitting the atmosphere.

They hope this will prove whether this deep space radiation is responsible for changing cloud cover. If so, it could force climate scientists to re-evaluate their ideas about how global warming occurs.

Mr Svensmark's results show that the rays produce electrically charged particles when they hit the atmosphere. He said: "These particles attract water molecules from the air and cause them to clump together until they condense into clouds."

Mr Svensmark claims that the number of cosmic rays hitting the Earth changes with the magnetic activity around the Sun. During high periods of activity, fewer cosmic rays hit the Earth and so there are less clouds formed, resulting in warming.

Low activity causes more clouds and cools the Earth.

Here's more detail on Svensmark's experiment that prompted the larger test:

In a box of air in the basement, they were able to show that electrons set free by cosmic rays coming through the ceiling stitched together droplets of sulphuric acid and water. These are the building blocks for cloud condensation. But journal after journal declined to publish their report; the discovery finally appeared in the Proceedings of the Royal Society late last year.

Re:anything

[Bigboote66]

Hybrids sound good, but really their efficiency is almost entirely based on their weight

Completely untrue. Compare, for example, the Toyota Yaris to the Toyota Prius:

Yaris: 2288 pounds, MPG: 34/40, with "real world" mpg being about 36.

Prius: 2932 pounds, MPG: 51/60, with "real world" mpg being about 45.

36 mpg is great gas mileage for a ICE car, but it's far short of 45. That's not saying that you shouldn't buy a smaller car if you can. My 1996 Maxima got, at most, 29 mpg (24 mpg mixed driving) when I first bought it, and it weighs only 80 pounds more than Prius. Sure, it's zippier, but did I really need that power? No; my next car will be small & efficient, possibly a hybrid.

Given that the Prius is almost 700 pounds, and 33% heavier than the Yaris, and gets 25% greater gas mileage, I'd say that weight is not really the most important aspect in its efficiency.

-BbT

Well...

[kitsunewarlock]

As an architect, let me say that the moment you try to force me to paint my beautiful roof-top gardens white, I will be forced to get...hostile...

If only "hostile" meant more than "think about sending a nasty e-mail."

Re:Well...

[SlashdotCrackPot]

It's ok man, Chia-Shingles come in multiple colors of white: White, Off-white, supremacist, Mother of Pearl, and yes even the ever so popular "Tighty Whitey."

Re:Well...

[Technician]

As an architect, let me say that the moment you try to force me to paint my beautiful roof-top gardens white, I will be forced to get...hostile...

Will enough roofs get painted white to counter the number of solar collectors being installed for hot water, pool heaters, PV and other dark surfaces?

You put up a black solar panel and you just thought you were doing the right thing.

Bad Idea

[ArcherB]

The road to permafrost is paved with good intentions.

Scares me...

[spikexyz]

...to think we're clever enough to find a technical solution that massive alters the fuctioning of a biosphere we understand to little about and not cause bigger, unanticipated problems.

Re:Scares me...

[UbuntuDupe]

The Simpsons: Australia edition

Skinner: Hm, it would be great if we had something to hunt here. I know! Let's import rabits and turn them loose!
Lisa: But they'll have no natural competition and could devastate the ecosystem!
Skinner: Don't be silly, then we'll just turn cats loose. They'll go feral, and the bunnies won't have a chance.
Lisa: But cats are even worse in the wild!
Skinner: Don't be silly, then we can just bring in leopards. You think cats have a chance against them?
Lisa: But leopards are even more dangerous!
Skinner: Don't be silly, if it ever gets bad, we can just give everyone a high-powered rifle and tell them to shoot the leopards on sight.
Lisa: Isn't it kind of dangerous to tell people to fire high-powered rifles at rapidly-moving targets in population centers?
Skinner: Don't be silly, we'll just abolish the right to a trial by jury and have the death penalty for accidental killings. You think anyone's stupid enough to be reckless with a rifle if that's the consequence?
Lisa: But then you'll have a totalitarian government!
Skinner: Ah, but that's the easy part -- then we just vote in a new constitution.

My crazy solution:

[Ihlosi]

Find some way to vent 20% of the planets atmosphere into space. That should get rid of enough CO2.

Re:My crazy solution:

[thoth99]

I have a better plan. The Carbon Dioxide Information Analysis Center (I just googled CO2 exhale rate and they sound legitimate) estimates the average person exhales 1 kg/day of CO2. Assuming the world population is 6.7 billion people, this leads to ~2.45 billion metric tons of CO2 a year.

Interesting possibility. I suppose if the militia in Darfur could just step up its efficiency a bit, it would be entitled to collect Richard Branson's money. Where's Mao Zedong now that we really need him? I suspected all along that the IPCC panel had to tie back into communism somehow.

next use for algae/plankton

[nietsch]

Harvest the top layer of them, concentrate and convert them to biofuel using TCP (total conversion proces, a kind of wet pyrolysis)
A biofuel tanker with the appropriate machinery would go out on the ocean with a load of iron (or iron rich earth), spread the iron and at the same time harvest the algae and convert them to biofuel. Since it injects more minerals than it harvests, more carbon will be removed form the carbon cycle than would be harvested with the biofuel.
Just an idea I would not like to see patented.

Re:next use for algae/plankton

[WindBourne]

Well, groups are already working on just this idea. The funny thing is that others are perusing the conversion of cellulose to ethanol/oil. I find the later one laughable. It is inheritantly a batch process of the feed stock (used by pigs and cattle) then mulched into the ground. Worse, the process is spread over a 2-d area. In contrast, algae is a stream process AND is a 3D. What that means is that it will use a fraction of the land, resources, and energy that cellulose (and other approaches) will use.

Re:next use for algae/plankton

[P_11]

The question that you neglect is what happens to the plankton that dies and falls to the ocean floor? Does it rot quietly or does it deplete the oxygen from the sea water? A solution to global warming that results in massive die-off of ocean life from lack of oxygen does not quite meet the need.

Reminds me ...

[FredDC]

... of Futurama.

Let's start dropping giant ice cubes into the sea to stop global warming!

Why enforce silly rules like cutting down emissions if you can come up with a half-baked crazy idea instead?

Stop screwing with ecosystems

[ThePopeLayton]

How many times do we have to screw up an ecosystem before we learn that we don't understand ecosystems well enough to predict what our acts will do.

1st. In Moab, Utah the forest service planted Russian trees to prevent the erosion of the river bed, only to find out that the plants have drained the river and killed many endogenous plants and animals.

2nd. Cane Toads were introduced into Australia to eat the insects that prey on the sugar cane. It turns out that the insects that eat sugar cane in Australia and Hawaii are completely different and there are no predators that can eat the Cane Toads. Now Australia is over populated with a Cane Toads which again are killing the natural plant life and animal life.

3rd. I can't think of another off the top of my head but I am certain there are probably hundreds of examples of this.

We must stop screwing with the ecosystems. When I hear of orbiting solar shields and massive projects to paint the desert, I get really scared because a scientist who really understands the delicate balance of the ecosystem would never dare to suggest such an idea. Only one who doesn't and is looking to make a buck and get on time for "saving the planet from global warming" would do it. These ideas will only result in causing more problems then they solve.

Re:Stop screwing with ecosystems

[steevc]

Someone introduced a few rabbits to Australia so he could shoot them. There's a few million now, even after myxomatosis was used to try and control them.

Pigs and goats have ruined a few ecosystems. Rats too, but they were not put there intentionally. Gardeners have introduced a few plant species that that taken over, e.g. giant hogweed, Japanese knotweed.

Ecosystems only get balanced over long periods. I'm sure there are plenty of cases in pre-history where a new species has moved in and destroyed what was there before, but eventually a predator/parasite/disease will move in or evolve to control it.

You would hope that we know enough now not to just introduce a species without planning for controlling it's spread. In any case it should be possible to re-forest using local species in most cases. I expect someone will propose genetic manipulation to help things along, but that has it's own dangers/unknowns.

Re:Stop screwing with ecosystems

[cvd6262]

3rd. In Arizona they planted broom grass (or something like that) to stop erosion, only to find that it bridged the natural fire breaks in the habitat. A region that used to suffer few fire is now threatened annually.

4th. By not allowing woodlands to burn periodically, we've created the potential for much worse destruction by fire.

5th. I'm sure people can think of others.

Re:Stop screwing with ecosystems

[thefirelane]

How many times do we have to screw up an ecosystem

Don't worry, come winter the apes will all freeze to death.

Fixing what isn't broken

[canuck57]

Ok, lets say the world is warming up. Is that bad? Seriously, is that really bad? Who has determined this? Where do they live? What are their motives?

At one time when for natural reasons the earth had lots of CO2 in the atmosphere it warmed up and taller trees grew towards the poles. Great prairie fires dumped millions of tons of CO2 in weeks. Warmer temperatures and more trees resulted. This reduced CO2 and on came a subsequent ice age. It also left behind coal, natural gas and tar sands where today it is too cold for this to happen.

Nature is just fine tuning for the 6.5 new critters crawling on it. It needs to warm up to have more vegetation to scrub out the CO2. Let nature do it's thing.

Man contemplating whole scale planetary changes like this is similar to giving children an atomic bomb kit.

Re: Fixing what isn't broken

[woozlewuzzle]

To me, all those things you mention simply sound like new business opportunities.

"Consider the direct cost of moving all the world's coastal cities to higher ground."

For everyone having to spend a dollar to move there's someone else making a dollar. Encouraging spending is good for the economy.

"Consider what's going to happen when the world's current breadbaskets turn to deserts, and some of the present day's have-not countries find themselves sitting on the new best farmland."

When cars became popular, the guys making horseshoes found themselves becoming mechanics or going out of business. Change always brings troubles to those who refuse to change. Globalization is taking the low-level jobs and moving them to places that see them as high-level jobs. There are people who want to stop globalization because of the threat to their way of life and don't care that there are benefits to other people's way of life. Change is a given. It's all about opportunity.

"Yeah, nature doesn't care. But most of us kind of like our easy dinosaur-free lifestyle, and would like to pass it on to our children."

We don't have the world our parents had and they didn't have the world that their parents had. Heck, already our kids don't have the world we had. I think that's called adapting to your environment. Mankind's ability to do that has kept him at the top of the food chain for a long time.

Cheers

Re:Fixing what isn't broken

[Asic Eng]

Ok, lets say the world is warming up. Is that bad? Seriously, is that really bad?

Probably - humans have adapted their settlements to the areas they live in. Change in their environments means that their agriculture and housing won't be suited anymore.

E.g. lots of people live in coastal areas, if the sea level rises (which is relatively likely) that means they'll lose their houses and land. On the other hand inland areas which are dry could become even drier - people there might not be able to grow food anymore.

Of course, earth may well stabilize itself in a few thousand years, and humans as a species might survice that, too. (Why not - we survived the ice age, after all.) However the economic and humanitarian costs of such an adjustment would be gigantic. It would seem to make sense to come up with strategies to avoid this scenario in the first place. There is really no need to put that much CO2 into the atmosphere.

Re: Fixing what isn't broken

[maxume]

New Orleans has flooded three times this century. The third time was the worst, as people had constructed more buildings in the low areas, and the Mississippi river delta was smaller than it had been, making New Orleans a worse place to have a city than in earlier times. It is currently being rebuilt anew. I do not share your faith that simple attrition will do one damn thing.

Re:Fixing what isn't broken

[geomon]

"Ok, lets say the world is warming up. Is that bad? Seriously, is that really bad? "

Yes. Dumping a bunch of fresh water into the world's oceans can stop these:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermohaline_circulat ion

Not only do they control coastal climates, they also control the deep circulation of nutrients bottom-to-top of the ocean's food chain. Stop these and the coasts become wetter and the interiors become dryer and colder. The moderating effects that these belts have on our climates allows us to have agriculturally productive continental interiors.

"Who has determined this?"

Scientists.

"Where do they live?"

Everywhere, around the world.

"What are their motives?"

We like to eat and live just like you do.

Funny that.

Global Warning

[Anonymous Coward]

No one disputes Global Warming.
We can see that it has occurred in the past and is occurring now.
What is in dispute is cause and cure, if any.
These cycles have taken place long before we had ANY impact on the planet.
*shudder* I can only imagine the swings once we start "tweaking" the cycles! */shudder*

Re:Global Warning

[gfxguy]

I think a failing of many environmentalists (and don't take that as a slam, because I consider myself an environmentalist) is they feel this need to "preserve" everything when nature itself doesn't do any such thing.

We are preserving forests with certain kinds of trees dominant when every few hundred or thousand years the dominant trees would have naturally cycled to another variety.

We try to strictly preserve animal populations when, for millions of years, the dominant animals have cycled between various predators that over hunt to various prey that thrives becasue predators died off.

And now we're going to try to preserve the global average temperature when, since the planet came in existence billions of years ago, the temperature has always cycled for various reasons. And there's more than one cycle at work, too.

We try to preserve every animal from exinction when nature has killed off far more species than man ever has. Now, I agree it's tragic when a species is lost, and it's more tragic when it's lost because mankind has over hunted them, but those are not the only protected species. It's a fact of nature that some species simply don't deserve to exist; evolution didn't treat them kindly. Most species die because they are NOT suited to the EVER CHANGING environment our planet gives us. So while I do agree with laws protecting species from over hunting, the fact is that we try to protect too many from nature itself.

Lastly, we are human beings. Unless you believe some alien dropped us here as an experiment, then we are part of nature, too.

So yes, I consider myself an environmentalist; I think we ought to stop polluting as much as we do, I think we need to protect our drinking water, I think we ought not hunt species to extinction. I many of the lightbulbs (no, not all) are flourescent. I turn the water off when I'm brushing my teeth and shaving. Both my cars are ULEV, and I make it a point to combine trips when I go out.

My question is why do so many environmentalists want to prevent nature from happening?

"Geo engineering"

[hackus]

Errrrr.......no.

Leave the planet alone please.

We know WAY too little about the planet to start screwing around with its Biosphere.

Not only that, but you do not get a second chance if you screw it up.

I say we start someplace else and experiment there, so if we do screw it up, no biggy.

Even the dumbest WINDOZE admin knows you always experiment on a TEST server before doing anything to your production server if you do not want downtime.

"Downtime" in this case would mean the Earths Biosphere.....I hope I do not have to explain what that means.

Besides, if we experiment with a different world, the WORST that can happen is it doesn't work.

Best possible thing that can happen is we get another planet to live on.

Half the people on this planet belong on Mars anyway....IMHO. :-)

-Hack

Oh and I'm not done ranting yet either...

[gd23ka]

I mean look at this, here someone is thinking of mucking around with the
planet far worse than people driving in their cars and cows passing gas,
like dumping million of tons of sulfur into the atmosphere
or painting large parts of the planet white or shading the planet from the
sun from orbit ...

believe me whoever comes up with these halfbaked (http://www.halfbakery.com)
ideas has no clue what could happen.

As Scientists, we had better be right

[finarfinjge]

This article and the one earlier, concerning the causitive nature of cosmic rays on climate should be read together. Many of the readers here are scientists, engineers (applied scientists) or at least capable of a fundemental understanding of science. To those people I say: If you are a proponent of man influenced climate change, you had better be right. This issue has now progressed to the point where the majority of people on the planet believe that there is no scientific doubt whatsoever about human influence and more precisely carbon dioxide. If this is wrong, if humans are not influencing climate or if that influence has nothing to do with carbon dioxide, science will be at fault and science will (rightly) lose credibility.

This means that arguments against intelligient design will now have to show how the "certainty" about evolution is any different from the "certainty" about global warming. Similar issues will come up in arguments for vaccination and other issues where real deaths could follow. Arguments will come up about funding levels at universities and research institutes. Arguments will come up against new initiatives for reducing pollution.

There are a large number of interest groups out there that are waiting with increasing anticipation that this issue will blow up in the face of the global warming proponents. A large number of the rest of us will get hit by the shrapnel of that explosion. As an engineer and consultant who gets a great deal of work and money out of efforts to curb green house gasses, I personally love the hype. As a believer in the importance of science in all of our lives, I am now getting very nervous about the future reputation of science.

Cheers
JE

Re:As Scientists, we had better be right

[AutopsyReport]

Maybe most scientists could agree that global warming is caused by man and later be proven to be wrong, but that doesn't mean you throw away all the useful information you've learned through scientific theory and start acting like they got it all wrong.

Of course you don't throw away that information -- but you also don't force a solution on something that may not be a problem.

The real problem is that most scientists do not admit uncertainty in their findings, so the general public is led to believe that global warming is infallible and we must respond to protect the Earth.

To many, the greatest threat is not if global warming will alter our way of life 15 years from now. The threat is the effect of combating global warming with extreme measures like the proposed ones when we might not have a problem.

Re:As Scientists, we had better be right

[finarfinjge]

"I really hate to mess with your worldview, but science is always wrong. That's how science works - through constant refinement and revision of existing ideas to better reflect our evolving understanding. Despite many cycles of disproving accepted theories, science is still the best game in town. The only way we become dangerous is if we give in to pride and refuse to keep pace with new developments."

I'm guessing that you replied to this after most had read the article etc. once and hence little chance for modding up. You are not messing with my world view. Reread my original post. Carefully. My world view is: The media reporting of the IPCC et. al. would have us believe that science is absolutely correct in this. None of the proponents of man made global warming are standing up and saying "Hey we could be wrong". As you seem to understand, this is absurd. The enemies of science will grab this failure (if it is indeed a failure) and use it to forward a myriad of idiotic proposals, such as intelligent design and the dangers of immunization. They will get funding for science cut back. They will get people to stop donating to Sierra Defense and others. This issue is about as public an issue as science has had. If we have it wrong, science itself will be at stake. And by then it will be too late.

Cheers
JE

The biological carbon sink idea is a bad one

[P3NIS_CLEAVER]

If you go into the middle of the rain forest, and dig down a couple of feet you hit sand. You would think that if trees were removing all this carbon from the atmosphere the layer would be a 100 feet deep. What happens is the wood rots and releases most of the carbon as CO2 and methane.

I would say that most of the carbon 'sinking' is done by algae that dies and falls to the bottom of the ocean, where it is cold and oxygen is limited. We don't know though if we fertilize the ocean that the algae will end up in the right spot, or just find its way to an area where the carbon would return to the atmosphere.

Cloud-generating barges

[ericdujardin]

There's a simple way to reflect the Sun's light: clouds. So how about putting a large number of barges in the sea: their bottom would be reflective and insulated, they would hold a small depth of water inside, so that the Sun's rays would be used 100% to produce clouds instead of heating the ocean, and the extra clouds would reflect the Sun's rays, and if we're smart enough, some desert areas would get some rain.

Mercury is as much a non-issue as it can be

[brunes69]

Well you must have a bad batch, I have had every light on my house running on CFLs for over 2 years now, not a single burnout. They should have had a 5 year warranty on them - why didn't you pursue it?

As far as mercury content - I suggest you read up. Not only is the amount 1/5 of that found in a common watch battery, because you only replace the bulbs every 5-6 years you're using less mercury than someone who buys one AA battery in 5 years :

http://oee.nrcan.gc.ca/energystar/english/consumer s/questions-answers.cfm?attr=4#mercury

Stop trying to fix the problem!

[Autonomous Crowhard]

The key is to stop adding to the problem. The planet will level things out over time if we give it a chance. If we actively try to fix the problem we'll be facing an ice age in a few centuries.

Yes, I said centuries. Look how quickly we started the whole global warming mess. I think we can reverse it even faster, but I doubt we're good enough to decelerate it and bring things bad to where they belong.

Control Chaos?

[thethibs]

The problem with this and all the other dingbat proposals is that climate is of its essence chaotic; there's no way to predict what any particular action will end up doing. That's why past climate models have been so far off the mark (of course, the next one will be bang-on!). That's how it is with dynamic systems: Even God can't predict climate, and humans certainly can't control it.

When we can control the flow of water down a mountain with a little push here and a nudge there instead of digging a ditch, we might be ready to start thinking about controlling climate.

Democratization of Climate Change Science

[HoneyBeeSpace]

The EdGCM project has wrapped a NASA global climate model (GCM) in a GUI (OS X and Win). Our goal is to 'democratize' climate change science by allowing anyone to run a global climate model. If you can attach some numbers to these geo-engineering techniques you can study their effects yourself.

For example, to simulate the sun-shade, you can just turn down the sun a few percent with a checkbox and a slider!. Painting roofs would be equivalent to increasing albedo slightly, and I don't think the model would let you pump sulfur into the atmosphere (that is hard-coded, not exposed to the GUI interface), but you can change the amount of all the greenhouse gasses via the UI.

Supercomputers and advanced FORTRAN programmers are no longer necessary to run your own GCM.

Disclaimer: I'm the project developer.

Re:Democratization of Climate Change Science

[HoneyBeeSpace]

Runs on Mac too, not just Windows. Click on the "Development" link on the main menu and you'd go to our dev site where you can have your source.

Re:Halt!

[ogma]

The fact that this idiotic rant gets modded +5 insightful says more about the current state of slashdot than it does about the original poster.

The IPCC report states that it is 95% certain that humanity is influencing global climate change and this guy thinks it's some sort of global conspiracy? Slashdot what the fuck has happened to you?

Oh fucking christ

[drix]

Repeat after me: no no no NO

It's precisely this sort of dominion-over-nature mentality that got us into this mess in the first place. The (annoyingly American) idea that we can solve any problem by simply throwing enough money and ingenuity at it needs to be extinguished, and fast. If we can't even figure out the precise extent of the damage we've already done to our ailingplanet, I shudder to think what nth-order unseen repercussions would result from reducing the level of solar radiation reaching the atmosphere by any meaningful amount. This "fix" is a complete nonstarter and every moment we waste discussing it as if it were a serious option just digs us further into the already deep hole we're in.

Re:Oh fucking christ

[rrkap]

It's precisely this sort of dominion-over-nature mentality that got us into this mess in the first place. The (annoyingly American) idea that we can solve any problem by simply throwing enough money and ingenuity at it needs to be extinguished, and fast. If we can't even figure out the precise extent of the damage we've already done to our ailingplanet, I shudder to think what nth-order unseen repercussions would result from reducing the level of solar radiation reaching the atmosphere by any meaningful amount. This "fix" is a complete nonstarter and every moment we waste discussing it as if it were a serious option just digs us further into the already deep hole we're in.

Here's the deal, in case you haven't been paying attention. Since about the time that our ancestors figured out how to grow crops and build cities we, as a species, have been living by modifying our environment. Since the beginning of civilization, humans have existed by modifying their environments substantially. This means building dams to irrigate land, draining swamps, clearing forests (either for cropland or for grazing land). It's amazing how relentlessly this process has continued with very few reversals until you realize that its continuation is literally a matter of life and death. Even during the Dark Ages, the land under cultivation in Europe is said to have doubled and to have moved into more intensive farming.

Of course, things really started heating up when we figured out how to burn coal and make it do work in the 19th century and then in the 20th century started using antibiotics, pesticides and effective chemical fertilizers. These are the technologies that have allowed us to largely escape starvation and have allowed our population to increase to 6 billion or so. If you want to give up our dominion over nature, that's fine, but realize we'd have to kill off billions of people to cut the population down to 100 million or so and give up such things as indoor pluming and electric light. This isn't a future I want, so I, for one, will continue doing my best to extend our dominion over nature.

Good news, nobody!

[RyoShin]

If we're going to spend a billion dollars, how about doing something that not only helps the planet but also has a longer effect. The main thing we need to focus on is travel. Aside from the pollution that millions of cars spew, the lack of good public transportation is causing quite a few other problems- road repair, obesity, tearing up land to put in more roads, etc. Spend those billions of dollars on the larger cities (and some of the medium ones) to install good bus and/or subway systems (trollies are pretty spiffy, too). This will have the added side effect of creating more jobs (driving the buses, setting up schedules, maintainence, etc.) and making life easier for those who can't afford a vehicle of their own. ...Oh, but the CAR-tel (haha) won't allow that, will they? Anyone know how much it costs to buy a senator? We could use one for this, and I wouldn't mind owning a few of my own.

And, because I couldn't resist:

These can range from sun-shades orbiting the Earth

Brilliant idea! In fact, let's take that one step further and make it a giant mirror to not only block the sun, but deflect the rays back. There's no possible way this will go wrong.

Hail the New Man!

[gd23ka]

Obviously citizen you enjoy life in Lenin Prospekt, our new sustainable human habitat.
Please be assured that the excess and unsustainable lifestyle of the American masses
will soon cease.

fat americans pigging oil again

[peter303]

All it took was about a 30% price drop in the price of gasoline and the hybrid companies have vehicle surplus. Even Prius has a marketing incentive now after years of dealer premiums.

It took a sustained oil price increase like 1973-1983, to reduce oil usage. US consumption actually declined throughout the 80s until the invention of SUV which bypassed mileage contraints because they were trucks.

Re:Er... huh?

[UbuntuDupe]

Based on your response, and your apparent level of confusion, it appears you've never seriously thought about this issue or done anything like a cost-benefit analysis. I don't say that to insult you, just to suggest how much you're missing.

Inputs ARE WHAT CAUSE THE OUTPUTS.

Yes, but, to extend the metaphor some more, outputs are caused by *all* of the inputs. When you ban one input, without penalizing the output, you simply change one input into another. So I can't use incandescents? Then I can't relax at home. So, I'll drive around -- which isn't punished -- to other places and increase the energy load there -- which isn't punished. Since CFL's use less, I'll be less persistent about turning them off when not in use -- which isn't punished -- and end up using the same energy for light -- which isn't punished. So I'll move out of my apartment into a larger home that requires more energy to regulate its temperature -- which isn't punished -- and take up more land -- which isn't punished.

If using CFL's makes me less productive -- as they do -- that's a loss to the labor pool. That's labor that can't be used to research better energy-related technologies or abate the consequences. (It doesn't matter that I can't personally do those things; on the macro scale, labor is ultimately fungible. Labor I can't do has to be filled by someone else, which cascades down the line until that stuff is affected.)

All that banning individual inputs does is shift to other, unbanned inputs, while forgoing the tax revenues people would have gladly paid for the extra energy the original input would have used. Sure, you could ban or regulate *all* inputs that you judge as wasteful, but why not just regulate the outputs and let people figure out for themselves what inputs they can do without?

It's not rocket science.

i knew it

[circletimessquare]

global warming is a conspiracy by canadians to become the new california and the scandinavians to become the new riviera

fight the canuck/ nordic global consiracy theory! let the truth come out!

good idea

[circletimessquare]

when faced with climate change, some people just stick their head in the sand and do nothing

that just means your ass gets sunburnt

why paint the ground?

[drew]

Why paint the ground white? In any decent size city, you'll see thousands of buildings with black tar roofs. For a little extra money, paint those white instead of black. No one will see it, it would have the same effect on global warming, and it will save the building owners a decent amount of money on their air conditioning costs as well. (Whether this would really have any effect on global warming, I have no idea, but it would definitely have an affect on local warming.) Better yet, put a couple planter boxes of hardy plants up there, and you can help take carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere while alleviating your storm water runoff load.

Along the same lines, finding something other than black asphalt to surface our gajillion miles of streets and highways with might help too.

Re:Halt!

[AutopsyReport]

you have to show why all those scientists who agree with the IPCC findings are wrong, and why the minority of scientists who disagree with them have better theories.

I honestly don't think this will happen. Assumptions made by the media about GW being an absolute truth is in such an abundance that it's difficult to erase the whole idea of it. Consensus says global warming is a fact and scientific findings mostly supports this. It's a compelling idea and it is understood why someone would believe it.

But it's simply too early to assume we need to take drastic measures like those mentioned. As many others said, it's ridiculous that we are willing to spend trillions on these tricks, but we can't even convince someone to reduce their emissions / consumption / etc.

I believe in due time we will realize that the Earth is not nearly as susceptible to its inhabitants as we currently believe it is. We've got evolution on our side -- a strong ability to adapt to any environment we live in. Why can't the same be said about the Earth?

Black and White, running out of options fast!

[gd23ka]

--"This issue has now progressed to the point where the majority of people on the planet believe that there is no scientific doubt whatsoever about human influence and more precisely carbon dioxide."

Not to mention the rapidly growing number of people who question the carbon theories.

--"As a believer in the importance of science in all of our lives, I am now getting very nervous about the future reputation of science."

Organized science is about to slam rock hard into religion: it's taking the same fall. People are
indeed getting wise to the politics in and around science. Those of us limited to black and white
are in serious trouble though, because they're running out of colors fast. Up to maybe 250 years
ago you could fool people by wearing a black priest robe. Then came the Age of Enlightenment. After
that you had to put on the white lab coat to fool people.

It's a matter of time scale

[alispguru]

All of the examples of natural (non-human-driven) change you mentioned happened on time scales that are vastly different from the apparent time scale of global warming, deforestation, and the current rate of species loss.

There are no doubt environmentalists who want to preserve everything, and some of what they want is written into US law (Endangered Species Act). However, on the human time scale, there is little difference between preserving everything and the natural rate of change.