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Europe Moves To Track Phone and Net Use

An anonymous reader writes with a NYTimes piece on the early moves by European governments to implement an EU data retention directive. The governments of Germany and the Netherlands are initially proposing much more stringent programs than the EU directive requires. For example, the German proposal "would essentially prohibit using false information to create an e-mail account, making the standard Internet practice of creating accounts with pseudonyms illegal." The Times notes that, early days as it is, nevertheless some people involved in the issue are "concerned about a shift in policy in Europe, which has long been a defender of individuals' privacy rights."

120 comments

  1. Great... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

    we're back to Nazi Germany again.

    1. Re:Great... by GFree · · Score: 3, Funny

      From article post to first comment - Godwin's Law invoked in 3 minutes. Is that a record here?

    2. Re:Great... by Lord+Dreamshaper · · Score: 3, Funny

      not even close. you must be new here...

      --
      When all of your wishes have been granted, many of your dreams will be destroyed - Marilyn Manson
    3. Re:Great... by Noonian+Soong · · Score: 2, Insightful

      How can this be insightful?

      I live in Germany and I'm really afraid that civil rights will be cut back too far and I don't like the recent development. Yes, our minister of the interior, Mr. Schaeuble is a total lunatic and goes too far. I don't like him or the laws that were passed lately. But the whole world has been acting crazy in a deluded sense of improving protection since 9/11 and I think I don't need to point out that the anglo-saxon countries have been spearheading the recent hysteria about terrorism.
      Of course, this is no excuse for Germany to cut back civil rights and I will criticize that anytime but Nazi Germany was yet another dimension of evil.

      If you want to discuss this matter seriously, than don't hide beneath anonymity and provide some honest arguments!

      --
      The strength of a civilization is not measured by its ability to fight wars, but rather by its ability to prevent them.
  2. That'll be real popular around here... by CRCulver · · Score: 2, Funny

    ...would essentially prohibit using false information to create an e-mail account, making the standard Internet practice of creating accounts with pseudonyms illegal.

    Slashdot posters TubGirlFan and IHeartGoatse adamantly expressed their opposition to the plan.

    1. Re:That'll be real popular around here... by purpledinoz · · Score: 5, Insightful

      That's ridiculous. I don't trust any free e-mail service provider with my information. In fact, I never provide real information unless I have to make a payment or something. I just don't trust Hotmail, Yahoo, Google, or any website with any real information.

    2. Re:That'll be real popular around here... by Itninja · · Score: 2, Funny

      So I guess those of use with very common names are just screwed then. Or I suppose I could get my name leagally changed to john_smith_no_not_that_one_the_other_one....

      --
      I judt got a nre Kinesis keybiartf so please excusr ant egregiou typos.
    3. Re:That'll be real popular around here... by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      Perhaps they can say that this new email tracking will provide us with "enhanced privacy" like the other press release that's just shown up on Slashdot.

      The same way DRM has given us "enhanced usability" of media files.

      The only thing that's getting "enhanced" is the power of the people in power.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    4. Re:That'll be real popular around here... by Vexorian · · Score: 1

      I have 3 fake emails, I am not a terrorist planning to bomb europe, and I hope I will never be. Why do I have fake emails? Do I want to hide from the government ? No, it is just that I am not stupid.

      Heck, you want to signup for SOME internet service, forum , whatever. IT WILL ASK YOU FOR A DARN EMAIL ADDRESS! , yes, they almost always do, but even assuming that the company/group holding the service is totally legit and won't use your email for the 50 different BAD things they can do with it, they are most likely vulnerable to an information leak. So anyone will be able to get your email address pretty easily... Do you want that to happen? No, you don't. For starters, you don't want your own email address to get filled by the darn "M4K3 YOUR PEN1S LARGER" emails, you don't want to get spam or phishing. You really don't want to put your email address in peryl just to access some site for whatever reason (among other things it could be porn, support forum for your printer, a place where you can share experiences about dog training, some collaborative thing, etc. (in other words using the internet!).

      I would really pity anyone living in a country in which a government forces you to use your own email everywhere, whatever the excuse they use. Notice how terrorists do not need email addresses to bomb your train station, and they don't have much trouble finding fake IDs, no reason it would be anymore difficult for an illicit organization to do illicit things in the web because of this.

      --

      Copyright infringement is "piracy" in the same way DRM is "consumer rape"
    5. Re:That'll be real popular around here... by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      I think they mean that you have to give your real name and address to the email service, not that you can only have one email address in total.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
  3. Fictitious Email Accounts by biocute · · Score: 1

    How about an out-of-EU mail forwarding service that receives and forwards emails between senders and recipients.

    So for example if Mr. EU wants to send an email to "us@hotmail.com", he would email to "us__hotmail_com@mailservice.com".

    1. Re:Fictitious Email Accounts by TheMeuge · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I think finding ways around this is all well and good, but the question is why is our society moving so intently towards a system when the citizens NEED to do it, in order to feel safe.

      I have said on several occasions, that we will find ourselves in trouble, when technology finally allows for constant surveillance of every member of society everywhere, all the time. Given historical and current precedents, it's logical to assume that once such capacity exists, it will be rapidly implemented.

      I have this cold chill down my spine, telling me that perhaps Hitler was right about the 1000-year-Reich, but was just off by a few decades. After all, total surveillance will finally allow the government to fulfill what seems to be its chief purpose anyway - maintaining the status quo indefinitely.

    2. Re:Fictitious Email Accounts by HomelessInLaJolla · · Score: 1

      the question is why is our society moving so intently towards a system when the citizens NEED to do it, in order to feel safe With respect to these transitions (eg. increased surveillance) it is not our society. It is the society of those who write the laws. The need to feel safe is an alibi.
      --
      the NPG electrode was replaced with carbon blac
    3. Re:Fictitious Email Accounts by Captain+Splendid · · Score: 0

      With respect to these transitions (eg. increased surveillance) it is not our society. It is the society of those who write the laws. The need to feel safe is an alibi.

      Agreed, but I'm loathe to not put at least some of the responsibility on the general public. If you can't be arsed keeping up with current events and reacting accordingly instead of screaming foul after the fact, you deserve what you get.

      --
      Linux, you magnificent bastard, I read the fucking manual!
    4. Re:Fictitious Email Accounts by HomelessInLaJolla · · Score: 1

      put at least some of the responsibility on the general public I felt the same way at one time until I began to think in terms of a business m0del.

      you deserve what you get The technique is diversionary. The taxpaying public is saddled with debt which they had no opportunity to opt out of. The taxpaying public is then distracted with vaporous issues. With the assent of popular opinion (which can be completely manufactured if necessary, eg. the Iraq war) money can be allocated. The allocation of that (tax) money serves to maintain social relationships and funnel money to preferred social groups.

      I can't really hold the general public responsible anymore. They're trapped in the banker's game. I can't honestly expect everyone to quit their jobs and hold the fort against the eviction/foreclosure notices served by paid public servants.

      Preemptive Strike lyric: "There's a game out there and the stakes are high. And the guy who runs it figures the averages all day long and all night long. Once in a while he let's you steal a peek. But if you stay in the game long enough you've got to lose. And once you've lost there's no way back. No way at all..."
      --
      the NPG electrode was replaced with carbon blac
    5. Re:Fictitious Email Accounts by faolan_devyn_aodfin · · Score: 1

      When I see stories like this it really make me wonder what goes on in the heads of these so-called "World Leaders." As an Amercian I'm just glad this law isn't being proposed here, but this law effects my fellow human beings living in Europe and that is in a way just as bad.

      Anyways, back onto my point before a digress, I propose the time for civil change is now in America (and indeed the world) is now. We, the People, must revolt against our governmnet. We must let them know that they cannot steal our livlihood, they cannot poision us with their vitrol, they cannot remove us from our liberties. They may fight us, they may jail us, they may try to take everything we have including our lives, but they will not steal from us our freedom. Nor can they our æternal souls.

      In this movement we have nothing to fear because should we fail it will have been better to fight and lost than to have never fought at all. I propose now a new movement! One in which the Republic belongs to the People and not to the whims of Special Interest and Corporations. We, as Americans of the Twenty-First Century must revolt in order to escape the pending threat of the right-wing Fascist threat the is consuming our government and we must act upon this soon.

      America has been stolen from us, the People... and in it's place a "New World Order" of Fascism and neo-feudalism is being slowly indoctored into the heard and minds of our nation. I ask you as countrymen, that we must crave forward a new destiny for our great nation before it is too late.

      --
      Pagan? Geek? Check out #paganism on Freenode IRC
    6. Re:Fictitious Email Accounts by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      I have this cold chill down my spine, telling me that perhaps Hitler was right about the 1000-year-Reich, but was just off by a few decades. After all, total surveillance will finally allow the government to fulfill what seems to be its chief purpose anyway - maintaining the status quo indefinitely.

      Unlike the US the German Constitution is designed to keep the status quo and prevent people from overthrowing the government or the system it's based on. If someone were to overthrow it while the government is good he'd most likely make it worse (i.e. military dictatorship), if the government went bad they'd do everything in their power to stay in power, no matter what the laws say now. Therefore we don't want laws that enable people to overthrow the government since any government worth overthrowing won't let these laws intact anyway.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
  4. Re:Honestly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sir, this is Slashdot. Here, we hate Americans (USians, if you want to be specific in hating them), not Europeans. Please get on with the program.

  5. Inevitability by HomelessInLaJolla · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Mankind has demonstrated, again and again, that if something can be done then it will, eventually, be done. Whatever justification is supplied for these directives the bottom line is: the bottom line. Information (eg. network logs) creates data. Data can be made to say anything. There is money to be made in making data say what the people with money want it to say. If justice is ever enforced it is a secondary consequence. The primary goal is always to allocate money to promote someone's bottom line.

    The common users in Europe will simply need to accept that there are now new sets of standards by which authorities can meddle in the affairs of the public. Either initiate a revolution or adjust behavior accordingly.

    --
    the NPG electrode was replaced with carbon blac
    1. Re:Inevitability by l3v1 · · Score: 1

      Either initiate a revolution or adjust behavior accordingly.

      We have quite nice examples of the latter coming from the west. And as we can see lately we take and follow all the examples of the west. Add the two together and check the result. The IYHNTH (i.e. if you have nothing to hide) policy will conquer Europe as well.
       

      --
      I am putting myself to the fullest possible use, which is all I can think that any conscious entity can ever hope to do.
    2. Re:Inevitability by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But why, I *do* have a lot of stuff to hide. My belly, for one. And my hairy d... let's not go there. Even my pr0n collection is not something I'm quite proud of. Not that I don't delete all of it every now and then, just to keep it fresh.

    3. Re:Inevitability by TheVelvetFlamebait · · Score: 1

      Whatever justification is supplied for these directives the bottom line is: the bottom line. Information (eg. network logs) creates data. Data can be made to say anything. There is money to be made in making data say what the people with money want it to say.
      Or it could be quite genuinely to fight terrorism or some such crap. I guess, if you really wanted to smear politicians unnecessarily, you could say the purpose is to get them good press by exploiting the terrorism problem. I don't know why you default to the more corrupt/paranoid/unlikely possibility.

      Either initiate a revolution or adjust behavior accordingly.
      Here's a novel suggestion: Vote 'em out! Encourage others to do so too! If you can't seem to manage that, then I don't know how you'll manage to initiate revolution.
      --
      You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
    4. Re:Inevitability by HomelessInLaJolla · · Score: 1

      > it could be quite genuinely to fight terrorism or some such crap

      Or it could be some crap.

      > Vote 'em out

      Polls do not include the option of "no candidate".

      --
      the NPG electrode was replaced with carbon blac
    5. Re:Inevitability by Comen · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Um, the reason we dont simply Vote Them Out! is because that would mean that you would be voting someone in that would stop whatever actions you feel are not right.
      Right now those people simply dont exist.
      What makes you think that you will always be given a choice, sure you can pick A B or C but what if all the choices are just the same choice?
      In a system like that, revolution might be the only way, and even then you have to wait till things are so bad, people just wont take it any more, things have to reach a tipping point.
      The government knows this, so they keep people just happy enough with the little things people are afraid to lose, house, cars etc... that you dont mind giving up the little things till its to late.
      Dont make it sound so simple as just vote them out! it really not that easy.
      This is the exact reason why so many people get so fustrated with out government today.
      There is not a politician that represents many of the things, many of us feel strongly about, and even if there was, you either would not get the financial backing you would need from corporations, or you would be brushed aside by media ready to cover Anna Nichole Smith, or they would just make you look like you on the side of terorists or some such nonsense.
      Either way right now it seems like you either play ball, or you dont play, giving us the same smucks every year and nothing really changes unless they want it to. this is how it is setup to work. If that makes you think you are changing things and are in control then its working.

    6. Re:Inevitability by TheVelvetFlamebait · · Score: 1

      Short of running yourself, there really isn't anything you can do to fix the situation then, huh? Then again, maybe the situation doesn't need fixing, and democracy is fulfilling the needs of the people (as demonstrated by the lack of politicians who see these as political leverage). Perhaps the system, in which we continuously try to find problems, is not at fault, rather the fault being with our unpopular opinions. Maybe we're just some insignificant niche whining about a world that simply does not care.

      Just a thought.

      --
      You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
    7. Re:Inevitability by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mankind has demonstrated, again and again, that if something can be done then it will, eventually, be done.

      Exactly. Take hugs for example. No really, you need one.

    8. Re:Inevitability by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Fuck You, Sir!!! Fuck You Fuck You Fuck You Fuck You Fuck You Fuck You Fuck You Fuck You Fuck You Fuck You Fuck You Fuck You Fuck You Fuck You Fuck You

      You sir are so right it fucking hurts and it pisses me off.

    9. Re:Inevitability by faolan_devyn_aodfin · · Score: 1

      Yeah, and it's that attitude that's going force us all to live in glass houses. At least no one will be able to through stones...

      --
      Pagan? Geek? Check out #paganism on Freenode IRC
    10. Re:Inevitability by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe we're just some insignificant niche whining about a world that simply does not care.

      Exactly. Get over it.

    11. Re:Inevitability by Sloppy · · Score: 1

      Mankind has demonstrated, again and again, that if something can be done then it will, eventually, be done.
      Ah, so you're saying that everyone uses PGP, since they can? :-)
      --
      As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
    12. Re:Inevitability by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      This isn't the US, we have plenty of different candidates and not all think we should immediately surrender our rights.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    13. Re:Inevitability by giorgiofr · · Score: 1

      Doea "adjusting my behaviour" mean that I have to start using only encypted communication channels, onion routing etc? That seems to be the most logical thing to do now.
      Long live the EU, I suppose.

      --
      Global warming is a cube.
    14. Re:Inevitability by HomelessInLaJolla · · Score: 1

      > we have plenty of different candidates

      Power is increasingly being consolidated at the federal level. While there are a plethora of candidates for local titles the major money movers are ted by Democrats and Republicans which are essentially two arms of the same body.

      > not all think we should immediately surrender our rights

      Those are the ones who never receive enough corporate or political backing to make their campaigns viable against the extremely well-funded Big Two.

      It's either Coke or Pepsi or resign yourself to being a "crackpot". Sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me--unless reputation means anything in the job market.

      --
      the NPG electrode was replaced with carbon blac
    15. Re:Inevitability by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      Power is increasingly being consolidated at the federal level. While there are a plethora of candidates for local titles the major money movers are ted by Democrats and Republicans which are essentially two arms of the same body.

      Noone votes for the Republicans. Can't blame them, who wants Neonazis as their government? Which democrats do you mean, social democrats or christ democrats (i.e. conservatives)?

      Didn't I say this is NOT the US? This country, for example, has two big (social democrats, conservatives), two medium (green, liberal) and a fringe party (socialist, sometimes they are in, sometimes not, depending on how many votes they get) in the main body of government. These form alliances depending on how many votes each party got which influences the final policy.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    16. Re:Inevitability by HomelessInLaJolla · · Score: 1

      > Didn't I say this is NOT the US?

      I acknowledge that you seem to have the more preferable situation.

      --
      the NPG electrode was replaced with carbon blac
  6. The EC is there to undermine national constitution by plasmacutter · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Pro corporate and pro-fascist extremists want to make the EU into the same ultra-right regime in place in the US.

    They had a problem though, National constitions and common law throughout much of Europe is simply too "liberal" to allow this.

    The solution, of course, is to make a new "supranational" government for europe which is designed from the ground up to be accountable only to the moneyed elite like Rupert Murdoch.

    The solution for the people is to either resign themselves to the institution of a new tyrrany, or to pull their support for the EC and let them sit and sputter.

    If i were european, i'd go for the latter.

    --
    VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
  7. Guv'ment is waking up by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    to the fact that the internet gives a voice to those that dissent, and that can't be allowed to go unchecked else the powers that be might be upsurped. Doesn't matter who it is or where it's at, Governement is Government.

  8. Odd... by faloi · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I find the monitoring of citizens location during every moment of a cell phone call to be a bit more frightening than not being able to use false data to register an email address. Why'd the pseudonym get bigger billing, as it were?

    --
    "It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education." -Albert Einstein
    1. Re:Odd... by plasmacutter · · Score: 1

      well, this is slashdot, its on the internets, and ted stevens himself was telling the EU how extra fake names clog the tubes.

      I for one welcome our tube unclogging overlords, as this will inevitably make my aim conversations, which i use more than my wireless, much faster.

      --
      VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
    2. Re:Odd... by Jherek+Carnelian · · Score: 0

      I find the monitoring of citizens location during every moment of a cell phone call to be a bit more frightening than not being able to use false data to register an email address. Why'd the pseudonym get bigger billing, as it were?

      Because it plays to a wider audience. Everybody hates spam and thus can easily relate to why someone would want to use a bogus email address. Most people don't care about being tracked by their cell, most have yet to figure out that, "you have nothing to fear if you have nothing to hide" is totally bogus.

    3. Re:Odd... by ChristW · · Score: 1

      I find the monitoring of citizens location during every moment of a cell phone call to be a bit more frightening than not being able to use false data to register an email address.
      Because I can still choose to turn my GSM off. I cannot choose to turn off the data logging that the phone company and ISP are doing. I also cannot choose to unhook the black box we're all going to get in our cars that record every road we drive (for 'tax purposes'...)
      --
      09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
  9. early days as it is by gravesb · · Score: 1

    People need to get involved early on to make sure things like this don't become exactly what the fear. The article shouldn't be suprised that privacy advocates are getting involved early. Glad to see it, personally.

    --
    http://bgcommonsense.blogspot.com
  10. Time for me to... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Time to make my own internet. (or a 'sub net' to the existing internet) There must be enought dark line around here somewhere to start one up?!?

  11. "It's totally unenforceable and would never work." by RichPowers · · Score: 4, Insightful

    There's the million-dollar phrase. I wonder if these EU legislators really understand how the Internet works. Those who wish to use emails, telephones, etc. for nefarious purposes will find a work-around. In the end, this legislation will only punish the grandmothers, kids, e-novices, and clueless users who simply tried to sign up for a junk email account. Joe Terrorist will be using encrypted communications and the like - stuff that already requires a team of specialists to track. So even if this legislation passes, you'll still need special enforcement units to track the real bad guys - exactly where we are now. Sounds like a lot of time, money, and hassle for a false sense of security.

  12. I feel so tremendously sad and frightened. by I)_MaLaClYpSe_(I · · Score: 1

    There will be no place where one can hide when all privacy has been abandoned in europe. I for one will apply for the citizenship of Switzerland which is less then 500km away from me now.

    1. Re:I feel so tremendously sad and frightened. by chill · · Score: 1

      Switzerland? You poor, sad, fool.

      They've had mandatory data retention laws and the like for some time now. They aren't as bad as what Germany is proposing, but give them time.

      --
      Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
  13. Re:The EC is there to undermine national constitut by Tony+Hoyle · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Well.. the EU parliament is elected and the EU Commission is appointed from elected officials in each country. The EU is not in itself a government - it only has the power granted to it by the member states, so if it's trying to make more restrictive laws it's because *your* elected government wants them to.

    Note also that it's the EU that successfully blocked software patents despite lots of lobbying from vested interests (well, the commission - remember, your government - wanted them, and the parliament - directly elected - sad get lost.. multiple times).

    It's got a long way to go before it's nearly as sold out as the US system is.

  14. dammed if you do, dammed if you don't by physicsboy500 · · Score: 1

    At first glance one would think this would open the door quite wide for the internet sale of tinfoil hats, but a savvy consumer would then "enter email address here" and realize...

    They know you know!

    --
    The original generic sig.
  15. Preparation for Flase Flag III by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Of course! This is all in preparation for the next false flag operation,
    due to occur before the next US Presidentail election. How else can we once
    again be under the finger of King George?

  16. Re:The EC is there to undermine national constitut by Tony+Hoyle · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Should have read TFA also. This is clear that the EU is *not* trying to implement this it's the *individual governments* that are going the draconian route - so your argument goes out of the window completely.

  17. Confusing terms by ObiWanStevobi · · Score: 1

    Being fascist has nothing to do with which side of the economic scale you are on. You need not look far to find a fascist of liberal or conservative persuasion. The main difference between the two is why they demand control. A liberal would propose such measures to keep corporations from engaging in consumer fraud or astroturfing. A conservative may do so to allow corporations to better keep tabs on employee whistleblowers. When doing it in the interest of national security, left or right doesn't matter, both can be overly militaristic.

    See Hitler and Stalin. Hitler was right-wing, Stalin was left-wing. Both were as militaristic and both were fascist.

    1. Re:Confusing terms by plasmacutter · · Score: 1

      no, fascism is characterized by greater and greater corporate power until you suddenly have a police state.

      communism is characterized by greater and greater state intervention in the economy until you suddenly have a command economy.

      stalin was marxist, not fascist

      --
      VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
    2. Re:Confusing terms by ObiWanStevobi · · Score: 1

      That would depend on who you ask. Among the accepted (well, widely debated) definitions of fascism, the common ground is an authoritarian government. Anything beyond that, the word has no universal definition and is really becomes just a political football. Some even say Fascism is not a generic term that can apply to anything but the Benito Mussolini regime. Since it was being used in a general sense, I'd say the only common definition would be to assume it is synonymous with authoritarianism, and the opposite of anarchism.

    3. Re:Confusing terms by plasmacutter · · Score: 2, Insightful

      exactly, which is why it makes reasonable sense that marxism, the "dictatorship of the proletariat", is the polar opposite of any reasonable definition of fascism.

      The fact that both end up as a police state is merely poetic irony.

      --
      VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
    4. Re:Confusing terms by Bj�rn · · Score: 1

      Almost as confusing a term as fascism is liberalism. It carries different meanings in different countries. In the US liberal mean left leaning. In Germany the Liberals are are a far right wing party. In England the Liberals are somewhere between the Tories and Labour, that is somewhere in the middle. If you look in Wikipedia it defines liberalism as: "Liberalism is an ideology, philosophical view, and political tradition which holds that liberty is the primary political value." and that would place it as the opposite fascism.

      --
      Never express yourself more clearly than you are able to think. --Niels Bohr
    5. Re:Confusing terms by Bj�rn · · Score: 1
      the opposite of anarchism

      Fair enough. I think we agree on that the authoritarian - anti-authoritarian dimension has nothing to do with the left - right dimension. I was just reacting against the use of the phrase fascist of liberal or conservative persuasion. Here is a relevant quote from the wikipedia article.

      In the mid-20th century, liberalism began to define itself in opposition to totalitarianism. The term was first used by Giovanni Gentile to describe the socio-political system set up by Mussolini. Stalin would apply it to German Nazism, and after the war it became a descriptive term for what liberalism considered the common characteristics of fascist, Nazi and Marxist-Leninist regimes. Totalitarian regimes sought and tried to implement absolute centralized control over all aspects of society, in order to achieve prosperity and stability. These governments often justified such absolutism by arguing that the survival of their civilization was at risk. Opposition to totalitarian regimes acquired great importance in liberal and democratic thinking, and they were often portrayed as trying to destroy liberal democracy. On the other hand, the opponents of liberalism strongly objected to the classification that unified mutually hostile fascist and communist ideologies and considered them fundamentally different.

      --
      Never express yourself more clearly than you are able to think. --Niels Bohr
  18. quid pro quo by Lord+Dreamshaper · · Score: 1

    making the standard Internet practice of creating accounts with pseudonyms illegal

    Right. As soon as they solve that whole spam problem and those personal data theft issues, then i'll consider not being able to change addresses at will

    --
    When all of your wishes have been granted, many of your dreams will be destroyed - Marilyn Manson
  19. Re:"It's totally unenforceable and would never wor by RebelSponge · · Score: 0

    So even if this legislation passes, you'll still need special enforcement units to track the real bad guys - exactly where we are now. Sounds like a lot of time, money, and hassle for a false sense of security.

    I always love it when the government uses the "it'll help prevent terrorism" line. Umm, hello, they're terrorist, they don't exactly give a rats ass what laws you pass. In fact, all it does is piss them off more and make them develop new ways of hiding so it is even harder to track them. Surely we all realize by now that the government (just pick one, US federal, state, EU, whatever) uses the terrorist tag to get crap passed that otherwise wouldn't be allowed. This would also mean that even more personal info is available (obviously no way for it to be 100% secure) to the terrorist for identity theft purposes.

    --
    Somebody go! Somebody go! God almighty, somebody go!
  20. Re:The EC is there to undermine national constitut by plasmacutter · · Score: 1

    You do not understand.

    politics is a 3 edged sword, your side, their side, and the truth.

    with every level of indirection they add to the electoral process, they further blunt your side and the truth until their side is the only one left standing.

    --
    VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
  21. Re:The EC is there to undermine national constitut by happy*nix · · Score: 1

    Hey!

    The US Constitution firmly guarantees many freedoms and rights. It does so in plain indisputable language that any teenager of average intelligence could understand. It has provisions for change, where necessary so that it never would be need outlandish interpretations, and always be relevant to the times.

    -sigh-

    --
    Gone to my happy place.
  22. Ah, yes. "Only for the public good." by sehlat · · Score: 1

    And OUR noble selves will never misuse or abuse this power.

    Of course, sooner or later, the power, once created, falls into less-than-noble hands...

    "You would rip up every law to get at the devil. And when you have cornered the devil, and he turns on you, where will you hide, all the laws being flat?"

  23. Re:"It's totally unenforceable and would never wor by l3v1 · · Score: 1

    Those who wish to use emails, telephones, etc. for nefarious purposes will find a work-around

    Maybe some didn't notice yet, but such measures - as well as the passenger-nagging measures at airports - never seem good enough to be considered being able to stop anyone with bad intentions. But, maybe they'll just put off their plans when they see that how much hassle is to get along, even when staying clean. Of course I'm not serious. Terrorists and co. will probably find a way around any measure. This doesn't mean that all current measures should be eliminated (they can at least prevent a drunken angryman hijack a plane), but some people should really spend some quality time on devising some preventive measures which really can stop such people without making the rest feel like radioactive tagged shaven sheep with tattooed barcodes on their necks.

    --
    I am putting myself to the fullest possible use, which is all I can think that any conscious entity can ever hope to do.
  24. it's just politics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Both countries have christian leading parties at the moment. in a few year resonable people will take over and this will go away.

    1. Re:it's just politics by Adambomb · · Score: 1

      Reasonable people are almost by definition less vocal than the completely irrational. Please advise your reasonable people to give voice to their rationality.

      --
      Ice Cream has no bones.
  25. Re:"It's totally unenforceable and would never wor by RichPowers · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Any legislation that controls the Internet will probably deter small-time hackers and the like. But is dealing with fewer script kiddies and spam really worth giving up more of our privacy?

  26. Huge amount of Data by JPMaximilian · · Score: 1

    Will such a huge amount of data really be useful? Depending on how its organized, if you have the logs of millions of users, will you realistically be able to sort through it all for whatever safety/prevention measures the government claims this is for?

    Either way this is a huge violation of one's right to privacy.

    --
    "I'll see you next time." - LeVar Burton
  27. So after all... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...the Government's fear of terrorism is justified! They were just a bit early. The transformation of normal citizens into terrorists is just catching up.

    Of course, after the first then-law-abiding citizens have no other means of resistance than violence, the fascists will happily come around saying "told you so!"

    Germany's minister Schaeuble is begging for a second assassination attempt it seems.

  28. Socialism by Chas · · Score: 1

    Yep. It's socialism at it's "finest".

    --


    Chas - The one, the only.
    THANK GOD!!!
    1. Re:Socialism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's not socialism. That's fascism. Get to know the Nanny State. It's far worse than anything the left could come up with.

    2. Re:Socialism by Chas · · Score: 1

      "That's not socialism."

      Socialism refers to a broad array of doctrines or political movements that envisage a socio-economic system in which property and the distribution of wealth are subject to social control.

      ** Thanks Wikipedia. Saved me from typing that.

      Now, if the government, in the guise of socialism is doing "all this stuff FOR YOU", then to a certain degree, they are free to monitor you as well. You don't want to participate in "the system"? Fine, that means NO participation (meaning you don't see any of the "benefits" you previously saw and they still take your money.)

      Any sort of Socialist government is eventully going to degerate into a Nanny State like this. "Because they're doing it for your own good! And FOR THE CHILDREN!"

      Now you'll have to excuse me. The whole "for the children" thing has left me violently nauseous, and I need to puke.

      --


      Chas - The one, the only.
      THANK GOD!!!
  29. Red herring by denoir · · Score: 4, Insightful
    This proposal is like many other similar ones a red herring. The article shows that the NYT doesn't understand EU politics.

    You see, when you have 27 member states that have a veto right on nearly everything the name of the game is haggling and compromise. It works like this: Member state A wants X that member state B is reluctant to agree upon. A then rallies member state C and D to put forward a preposterous proposal Y that shocks member states A, E, F and G. Then the negotiations begin and imagine that, member state A is willing to give up Y if it gets X. B is now under pressure from A, C, D, E, F and G to agree to X.

    This is more likely a play for reducing fishing quotas or something similar. It is important to remember that the stated proposals are seldom what they seem to be and are always preposterous. Even if a proposed bill is vaguely on-topic, it starts with an extreme suggestion in order to allow a compromise solution. It's just the way it is played and it actually works very well.

    The down side is of course that people not familiar with how things work in Brussels tend to get upset over the first batch of radical proposals.

    1. Re:Red herring by khallow · · Score: 1

      Hmmm, that would make it pretty hard to figure out what they're actually doing since some of the proposals are serious and some aren't. I'm glad I don't have to elect anyone to that mess. The sausagemakers in Washington, DC are more than enough for me.

    2. Re:Red herring by RexRhino · · Score: 1

      If what you are saying is true, and the public discourse in the EU is some byzintine code of double meanings and behind the scenes agendas... well then, it means that the EU isn't a very democratic institution. A democratic institution is transparent, open, and easily understood by the electoriate.

    3. Re:Red herring by Halo1 · · Score: 1

      In this case, pretty much all individual member states sounded almost like the current American government, toting the "think of the children" and "be afraid of the terrorist" lines. This directive was not primarily a result of haggling among member states (and yes, I did follow this directive from nearby).

      --
      Donate free food here
    4. Re:Red herring by anduz · · Score: 1

      Actually it's not that hard to understand is it? The European Union is not a government that has control over it's "states", it's instead an allegiance of indepentent countries who try to follow the same roads. Of course that doesn't mean the individual governments can be forced into doing things they don't first agree too, frankly because noone in Europe wants another country to tell them what to do, in their own. I wouldn't be so sure that laws like this one isn't going to pass however. Because while people might be too liberal over here, our governments certainly aren't.

    5. Re:Red herring by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Uhuh... I tried to follow this legislation as it moved through the EU mill and my impression is... the exact opposite.
      • The idea of legislation like this got kicked of in the UK in 2000, it was assumed illegal, expensive and hard to sell, by the proponents in criminal intelligence, police and MI5/6 GCHQ.:

        "our needs are in conflict with existing legislation arising from data protection provisions and ECHR [european convention on human rights]. In addition, there is significant commercial pressure to delete data. There are also significant public policy issues to address."

      • The idea got kicked to international forums. These draw less attention than a national (UK) parliament debate.
      • The forum chosen, first the G8. Then the council of EU ministers. Only the small group of justice and home affairs ministers gets involved. This is all closed doors stuff.
      • The trick one suspects, UK bureaucrats coordinated and briefed with their European counterparts so when the ministers came back home and asked "should we do this?" all they heard was rosy stories. (Costs go only to a few filthy rich telco`s, no legal problems, trust the cops its effective... no sign of a debate on effectiveness, the trustworthiness of this data or controls on its use)
      • Activists get wind of the plans, the secrecy and lack of oppertunities for input fires them up even more. Petitions are started
      • The EU parliament gets involved arguing many millions of euro`s of costs make this an economic issue over which the parliament would have a say, questions get asked, research is started...
      • The Netherlands (and others?) holds up the vote in the council
      • The civil rights commission and vocal parliamentairians start building a compromise with some research behind it
      • One assumes the nameless pro legislation forces get the big party blocks in a backroom and threatens to pass the legislation in the council if no deal is reached. An empty threat since the Netherlands no longer supports the legislation on the table??
      • The big party blocks with a majority in the EU parliament pass the legislation without much of the suggested amendments.
      • The experts and vocal parliamentairians are very very pissed of they were ignored
      • people say the legislation was passed only since it allows a lot of room to national government to set their own standard. Thus ending the absurd haggling over mandatory minimum years in Brussels.

      present day: National proponents realizing the haggling now has to happen on a national level come out in full force with these current crazy plans. Though their detour trough Brussels did win them that national legislation is now mandatory with a 09 deadline. People still don`t know the legislation is one court decision away from being declared against the European human rights convention as foreseen by the proponents in 2000. Bits of freedom, which fought this in the Netherlands from the beginning has been out of cash for a while. I left out the bit where this 2000 legislation was cast as a reaction to (Madrid, london) terrorist attacks. It was even "fud"-ed as only directed at terrorism (Smallprint: and serious crime... What, isn`t terrorism a serious crime, so why mention that explicitly?)

      The result: badly/broadly defined legislation without *any* of that pesky research into effectiveness, legality and cost... Oh, and prety much only *one* critical article in the UK press at a time when it was possible to protest this. (So, no campaign issue for Blairs opposition) This legislation gets passed trough the EU at many times the speed of the plan for an UK wide "national identity register" and ID cards (Sorry, "entitlement cards"). But the real haggling gets shifted to the national level and the EU is used just to make the legislation some "mandatory technicality from Brussels". All of this with minimal effect o

  30. An obvious power grab by MikeRT · · Score: 1

    You know how they justify things like this because criminals and terrorists are allegedly more saavy and powerful than ever thanks to "technology?" You look at the sort of weapons and tools that the governments of the first world countries have today, and the power disparity is getting greater. Shit, some of the weapons our military gets these days in the United States are just sick. Seriously, the governments of the world are just afraid of the fact that today the individual has some new power that is still largely harmless. They can't have that because it might mean evolution, not revolution. A slow, but steady push away from the powers that be.

  31. Re:The EC is there to undermine national constitut by advocate_one · · Score: 1

    they blocked software patents because the legislation which would have been passed had been so neutered as to make software patents useless for the big boys to use as a weapon... what would have been passed would have been software patents that actually required a real inventive step and a true "technical effect" instead of just an idea that could be rubber-stamped through by a body paid by the volume of patents they passed... When Microsoft and the others realised what was about to happen (in that the anti-software lobbying was actually working) was not in their long term interest, then they had the bill killed. Killing the bill allows them to sneak what they want in again...

    --
    Donald 'Duck' Dunn: We had a band powerful enough to turn goat piss into gasoline.
  32. Re:"It's totally unenforceable and would never wor by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just like the RIAA isn't really out to stop piracy - but only to control the distribution channels, and hence the artists - these legislators aren't really out to stop terrorists and other evildoers. That's just the convenient excuse on the road to controlling these bothersome citizens and all their pesky rights.

  33. Wait, does this mean... by Kohaku+Nanaya · · Score: 1

    If somebody already has a "falsified" e-mail/IM account, would these new rules force that person to create a new one with the "real" information? Or is this only restricted to people making new ones if these retention laws go through?

    (Just curious, as I may be going to Ireland for a while soon.)

  34. Protest? by ijakings · · Score: 0
    Noone marches these days, it seems to be a tradition lost by the ages.

    "Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children's children what it was once like in the
    1. United States
    world where men were free."

    Now I might not be that old but marches over our freedom and privacy is what this current situation needs. Marching on issues seems to be regarded as archaic and improper these days... I refuse to fill in the next UK Census. Bring on the £1000 fine, I dont care. Id pay £10000 in the name of privacy and freedom.

    I just hope we dont all sit here saying we cant let our freedoms die and just let them slip past whilst we are debating semantics.
  35. Re:"It's totally unenforceable and would never wor by RAMMS+EIN · · Score: 2, Interesting

    ``Joe Terrorist will be using encrypted communications and the like - stuff that already requires a team of specialists to track.''

    People keep repeating that, but is it actually true? The black hats make mistakes, too. Shouldn't increasing the number of ways in which they can trip up increase our chances of finding them out before they strike?

    --
    Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
  36. The Problem: The People by RAMMS+EIN · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The problem is that the vast majority of people I talk to don't see the government as a threat. The idea that the government is there to help is completely accepted over here. In fact, people get upset when the government doesn't take care of something (up to the point where they demand the government take action about money people lost on investments, or salaries of top executives perceived to be too high).

    The idea that the government could harm its subjects is completely foreign, apart from quips about the gov't collecting too much tax or the politicians playing their own games, rather than listening to the people. Certainly, if the government says that some programme is intended to protect us from black hats, that's what it will do. Only the opposition and a bunch of paranoid lunatics would tell you otherwise.

    The point is that, even if, and that's a big if, the government has the best interest of its subjects in mind, that doesn't mean the programmes it proposes will have the best effect. You don't have to be a conspiracy theorist, you only have to realize that (1) just because someone is a politician doesn't mean they can't put their own interests above other people's, and (2) just because people mean well doesn't mean they're omniscient. In other words, things can go wrong. At some point, they will. Therefore, it is imperative to not just accept whatever the government says is good, but to stay informed, to look at things critically, and to make your own decisions.

    --
    Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
    1. Re:The Problem: The People by Pig+Hogger · · Score: 1

      The problem is that the vast majority of people I talk to don't see the government as a threat. The idea that the government is there to help is completely accepted over here. In fact, people get upset when the government doesn't take care of something (up to the point where they demand the government take action about money people lost on investments, or salaries of top executives perceived to be too high).
      The problem is that you are either a bourgeois or an anglo-saxon (or both). Anglo-saxons have had that cultural thing against the State which actually can be traced back to the magna-carta.

      The rest of Europe did not have magna-carta, so they don't think that the State/Government is bad, evil, wicked and self-serving. Since they don't think that, their governments are actually good, nice, benevolent and provide actual good services to the public.

    2. Re:The Problem: The People by Magada · · Score: 1

      You provided the first good laugh I had today. Thank you very much, kind sir.

      --
      Something bad is coming when people are suddenly anxious to tell the truth.
    3. Re:The Problem: The People by UpnAtom · · Score: 1

      You're absolutely right although, because Britain has escaped totalitarianism, the public think it will never happen.

      Consequently, Blair's Government has passed more totalitarian laws than Hitler ever did and hardly anyone has noticed.

      http://www.waronfreedom.net/

      The media rarely cover it for the same reasons and because the issues don't fit nicely into 300 words. The Tories haven't mentioned it for reasons only known to themselves. And the LibDems never get any media coverage.

      There's one going through Parliament now that can punish anyone who (on balance of evidence) might be reasonably expected to inadvertently aid a criminal. That's right, no intent required, no crime has to be committed, just the hypothetical aiding of a hypothetical crime can get you interred.

      http://www.magnacartaplus.org/news/index.php/?p=10 0

  37. Doesn't surprice me. by Yaa+101 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    What The Netherlands propagate is their own use for many years to tap each and any phone call by Israeli black boxes while signing contracts that forbid the same government from inspecting what is going on in these black boxes. The Dutch government think this is the best thing to do.

    During WWII the Dutch government was as zealous about these things as they are now and had none whatsoever problem in sharing their records on Jewish and other wanted people with the NAZIS. The current political generation behaves not really different from that time so don't look strange if they sell out their populace again.

  38. OMG!! T3H PARRALLELLLZ!!! by TheVelvetFlamebait · · Score: 1

    Come on. All Germany is proposing is the email law. Where exactly are the parallels between this and Nazi Germany huh?

    --
    You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
    1. Re:OMG!! T3H PARRALLELLLZ!!! by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      They, uh, .... make laws? Have a democratically elected government?

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
  39. FALSE Information??? by EEBaum · · Score: 1

    essentially prohibit using false information to create an e-mail account

    What about using no information whatsoever to create an e-mail account? Last time I checked, you could just up and make an account on a whim. I have dozens on my domain, all of which have no false information, nor any true information. All they have is a username and password.

    --
    -- I prefer the term "karma escort."
    1. Re:FALSE Information??? by gfreeman · · Score: 1

      I'm sure you had to supply "real" data in order to register the domain.

      --
      Ceci n'est pas un sig.
  40. A post 9/11 world, great for pre 2000 legislation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    This idea dates back to begin 2000. At that time the UK national criminal inteligence service argued for it. In a plan that I dont think was intended for publication it concluded: "There is a convergence of issues. Communications data is of crucial importance to Law Enforcement, and the Intelligence and Security Agencies but our needs are in conflict with existing legislation arising from data protection provisions and ECHR. In addition, there is significant commercial pressure to delete data. There are also significant public policy issues to address. It is an area requiring prompt attention."

    Thats "European Convention on Human Rights". It has an article on how invasions upon someones privacy should be proportional. Keeping traffic data on everyone in Europe could be considdered disproportional.

    Somehow the proponents forgot to mention that bit when they lobbied for this idea. First at the G8, then at the EU commision. The procedure the commision used for this legislation would have kept the decision out of the EU parlaiment. This is where the accusation of "policy laundering" comes from. The pressure to pass legislation increased after the Madrid train bombings, leading some people to mistake this law for a reaction to terrorism or something. I dont know why the text always had to mention it was directed at "terrorism and serious crime", isn`t terrorism a serious crime? Proponents were fearmongering using very scary crimes that were solved using traffic data. (So why the new legislation if you can solve crimes...?) And everyone was saying that the bill, which would go to the telco`s as NCIS had first suggested, would be that high.

    The EU parlaiment argued is should get a say, so its civil liverties commisions got to work and... then the two big party blocks reached a deal behind closed doors. This was done under the threat from the commision to pass legislation without any input from parlainment. They can do that, the procedure is explained in this map of the codecision procedure. I am not kidding, thats the real thing. And the threat was to stay outside of that map... anyway. The version that was passed allowed national governments some freedom in setting their legislation so some countries will be less bad.

  41. tracking political dissidents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    The standard justifications of fighting terrorism and child pornography are total bullshit. The real reason behind creepy and anti-democratic proposals like this are tracking of political dissidents. A simple proof is the fact that such controversial proposals are being discussed by some "representatives" to begin with while the vast majority of citizens are strongly opposed to them.

  42. as tough as it may be by wzzzzrd · · Score: 1

    disc: my post is ONLY about this email issue.

    this is rediciolous, bad and unwanted. but calling it fascism is rediciolous also. why? we just experience a normal transition from something "new" into something "standard". email ist mainstream since when? a relatively short time. now govs do notice that email is so common, it has to be reglemented. like old school snail mail. if you want to write a letter, the recipient has to have a real address. there are workarounds like co., postboxes and whatnot, but these workarounds will build up with e-mail just the same. the sender does not need to be identified for snail mail, but that's just a detail.

    don't get me wrong, i hate this, i thought THIS time we might adopt a new media/ technique in a free way, but we haven't since thousands of years, why should we now?

    now to something different. things ARE going wrong with europe, especially with germany. "our" gov is proposing a law that allows the police to spy our private pc with trojan horses. this is no joke: an interview with the german home secretary (sorry, in german).. there is a law proposal on it's way to ban so called "killer games" like counterstrike even for adults, producing and selling those games would be illegal (which is SO damn stupid, since germany is on it's way to establish itself as a good place for game developers, see crysis). in a few years (i think two) our travelling passports WILL contain biometric information, our passports will follow for sure. i could go on and on for a long time, but these few topics should give you the picture.

    so, no more "old europe" anymore, we're about to completely abandon our ancient greek legacy (where democracy and the like originally came from). the reconnaissance is over, until the next great breakdown, but when that happens i WILL stand up beeing a smartass and say: "We told you so..."

    --
    On second thought, let's not go to Camelot. It is a silly place.
    1. Re:as tough as it may be by lahi · · Score: 1

      What's next? Outlawing Free Operating Systems on which their trojans won't run? The German government is a bunch of brain-dead idiots.

      To my astonishment though, it seems Brigitte Zypries, the German minister of justice, has shot down Schäuble on this trojan matter. Not that that makes her any better in my eyes, with those EU-wide swastika ban and holocaust-denial-denial ideas of hers. Fucking idiots, all of them. Not saying that we don't have our share of idiotic politicians in Denmark, of course.

      I think I will send a few threats and insults to a selection of EU politicians one of these days. Paper-mail can still be anonymous, fortunately.

      -Lasse Hillerøe Petersen
      (Arguing for safe pseudonymity on the net since 1993, though I have rarely had any use for it myself. And I'm no John Smith either. My name is globally unique.)

  43. Re:The EC is there to undermine national constitut by ricree · · Score: 1

    Pro corporate and pro-fascist extremists want to make the EU into the same ultra-right regime in place in the US.
    Except that you don't see the government trying to pull this in the US, so I'm not sure what argument you're trying to make here.
  44. Wrong, wrong, wrong... by Chmcginn · · Score: 1

    Slashdot doesn't hate Americans for being Americans. Slashdot hates knee-jerk fascists. It's just seems like we hate the US because, most of the time, it beats out the rest of the world in the quality & quantity of our K-JFs. But somedays the EU feels the need to get back into the race...

    --
    Have you been touched by his noodly appendage?
  45. Re:"It's totally unenforceable and would never wor by tkrotchko · · Score: 3, Insightful

    "The black hats make mistakes, too"

    What black hats?

    It seems a little 1984-ish to somehow claim there is an enemy "out there" and we need to enact a more draconian central government with more powers to somehow take on this unnamed enemy.

    Do you see the problem? As long as no one will name the black hats, you can claim a constant war, and every time some random violence strikes, governments can claim the "black hats" are getting more and more clever and that even more laws need to be enacted.

    Meanwhile, are we any safer today than in the year 2000? It appears we aren't. And worse, we keep putting more restrictions on people based on some crazy nutty idea of where a terrorist might or could strike. And every time you do that, you force this mythical bad guy to strike in a different way, which requires more and more restrictions.

    It's a flawed way of thinking. You cannot guess even a fraction of the infinite ways to screw up a civilization. And I'm not sure I want to live in a world like that anyway.

    Frankly there has never been a government trustworthy enough to give what amounts to unlimited access to our personal lives on the off chance that someone may be a terrorist. Worse, there's no proof that this type of intrusions into our lives has even a small impact on making safer.

    --
    You were mistaken. Which is odd, since memory shouldn't be a problem for you
  46. Re:The EC is there to undermine national constitut by trenien · · Score: 2, Interesting
    You must remember (know ?) one thing: the EU current political system has been carefully designed to allow people who shouldn't have that power in the first place - the Commission - have the first and final say in crafting EU's laws (the 'directives').

    The Commission mostly present itself as a legislative power, and when they make the various countries' legislatures pass laws that never would had gone through on the local level, the Executive branch moan that it's not their faults but that of big bad ol' EU.

    They conveniently forget that the Commission is made-up of people designated by the various Executive powers and from then on are mostly unnaccountable for whatever they do. The 'check and balance' with the parliament is mostly a joke.

  47. It's not just the US and Europe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Human rights groups all over the world are seeing this happening. Folks are connecting the dots. Heard about this on the radio today.

  48. US influence by Tom · · Score: 1

    Mod me flamebait, but hear the facts first:

    * Germany used to be very liberal in hacking laws
    * We had (well, on paper we still have), strong privacy protection laws
    * Thanks to CCC and others, German officials used to be somewhat educated in many privacy and general computing matters

    Now it's not much of a secret that our new government, especially Mrs. Merkel, is very much more US-leaning than the previous one (which, for all its failures, at least kept us out of the stupid Iraq war). Ever since the government changed, we get stuff like this, which 5 years or so ago I would've expected from the US, but never from my home country.

    She isn't as bad as Blair, but Merkel is another state leader sitting up and begging at Bush's table. She's the reason I care for US politics, because at most a year later, someone from her following will propose something similar over here. I wish we had a proper chancellor again, instead of this cardbox stand-in.

    --
    Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
  49. I think it is good by Inyu · · Score: 1

    People will be less concerned to be bad things, under their name. It is more civilized anyway. I like it. Eventually, it may be a simple way to completely avoid unsolicited mail.

  50. Re:The Attack on the internet begins.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The final war for information has begun.

    It's not a war. In a war you can fight, and there are at least two sides. Here there's only one side, and they have already won. Don't delude yourself into thinking you actually have a chance.

  51. Wonderfull by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Now we can force you petty consumers to read our garbage - What youre not interested???

    You must be a terorist hippie bent on destroying society!!!

    As technological faschism is moving closer and our governments are hellbent to quash all that dare speak out against them and to snoop into every petty detail of your lives these moves should be watched closely.

    Under the guise of fighting a holy crusade against terrorists, dangerous file sharers, and the like your rights for normal privacy are being eroded.

    Would you like anyone to see a picture of your girlfriend like she has only intended you to do so? I have but one thing to say to you all - BEWARE DEMOCRACY IS IN GRAVE DANGER!!!!!!

    This is only the first step!

  52. Um by trifish · · Score: 1

    To set the sensationalistic title right, from TFA (emphasis mine):

    "European Union countries have until 2009 to put the Data Retention Directive into law, so the proposals seen now are early interpretations. But some people involved in the issue are concerned about a shift in policy in Europe,"

    In democratic parliaments representatives keep proposing "something" all the time. Even crazy and unacceptable ideas. The point is that 90% of these ideas are never approved (not enough votes).

  53. Never gonna happen... by dwinter · · Score: 1
    German politicians will drop this as soon as they realize that
    • data retention can be too easily circumvented (think of public phones, internet cafes, ...) and even if it could not be circumvented, it would only help to solve about 0.006% of all crimes committed
    • this directive does not need to be implemented because it already violates European human rights conventions and rulings by the European Court of Justice (Ireland already sues against it, BTW)
    • the implementation of this directive would be a violation of at least six German laws and "basic laws" (ie. the German constitution)
    • the government would have to pay for the costs or get sued by Telcos and ISPs otherwise (guess it'll be at least several billion Euros per year)
    I guess, this directive will never become law, or only long enough for some constitional court to rule it unconstitutional. As some other poster points out, it's more likely that this is just some politicians flexing their muscles. david
  54. Re:The EC is there to undermine national constitut by Halo1 · · Score: 1

    This is clear that the EU is *not* trying to implement this it's the *individual governments* that are going the draconian route - so your argument goes out of the window completely.

    No, it doesn't. These laws are merely the implementation of a European directive which was approved earlier on. Further, the article is plain wrong when it claims that the Netherlands is going further than what the directive requires by recording where you are during a mobile phone call, because that's literally required by the directive.

    The German proposal could be interpreted as going further, although the directive does say that the sender and recipient of all emails must be logged, and what good does this logging do if you can't identify these people? It's therefore very much "in the spirit" of the directive.

    That said, you can't just blame this on "the EU" either, since one of the reasons the directive is so bad as it is, is because the Council of Ministers (which consists of ministers of the various national governments) pushed through the adopted "compromise" text (which was not a compromise at all) through Parliament (together with the leadership of the EP's Socialist and Christian Democrat groups).

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  55. Re:"It's totally unenforceable and would never wor by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    if you have nothing to hide you shouldn't worry,citizen.

  56. Re:"It's totally unenforceable and would never wor by KnuthKonrad · · Score: 1

    This would also mean that even more personal info is available (obviously no way for it to be 100% secure) to the terrorist for identity theft purposes.

    This is the part that's seems to be forgoten throughout most debates. Not only will a heap load of (mostly useless) data be collected, but it will be stored and handled by private companies (ISPs, Telcos...) in whatever location they feel fits those needs. Who will be responsible for data theft/corruption/manipulation that happens there? Who can assure the data is consistent and not tampered with? Who will protect me from false accusations? Just a couple of days ago 22 million german credit card holders had their transactions screened for child porn (the number two reason, besides "fight terrorism", to get any law through) purchases.

  57. Re:The EC is there to undermine national constitut by quantic_oscillation7 · · Score: 1

    i agree, it's called "novus ordo seclorum" http://www.wealth4freedom.com/dollarbill.html new world order....

  58. Taking a leaf out the MS game plan? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It looks like the US is generally starting to use MS-alike tactics: if you can't beat, buy or steal it, co-opt it. Get into some 'joint' work (forcibly, if need be) and subvert the processes in what you don't like so it becomes US compliant, however stupid that may be or (more importantly) however much long term danger that may present to what I'd call the victim.

    It seems the US foreign teams follow quite a focused strategy to co-opt governments into implementing their increasingly warped view of the world. They have one beachhead already called 'Britain', now with the enthusiastic collaboration, sorry, help of Tony Blair but he's merely the latest in a series that started with doing things like hosting Echelon.

    Not that it's hard to co-opt "Europe", the central controls are hosted in a country that once ranked second on the list of most corrupt countries. The pesky problem is local collaboration and it appears that's being taken care of.

    The US approach to privacy equals the McDonalds approach to healthy food. Much pretences, other subtext and a myth.

  59. Police State Forever by VeNoM0619 · · Score: 1


    Isn't it all too obvious by now? We ALREADY live in a police state, which WE built, and it will last FOREVER.

    Think of it this way, americans left england to avoid taxation (on tea), only to create a country where everything is taxed anyways (sales tax, even on tea). We have created what we hated.

    Now, think of modern day, where we are ruled by fear in our everyday lives. Back in the day the fear was simple, no physical pain. Nowadays we are run by different types of fear. Take for example, fear of expression. No longer can you go to a place where you are allowed to say whatever you want, without some sort of retaliation. In a work environment, people are afraid of saying anything that involves an opinon for FEAR of losing their job. WE have created this fear onto others because we no longer know how to tolerate others behaviors, EVEN if they are jokes. In a country where we are afraid of saying a joke, something meant to brighten people's lives, we've become afraid to do something as simple as that. Just constant outcries of "I'm offended, thats not nice" running rampant to the point where WE the people have taken OUR OWN FREEDOM OF SPEECH.

    Now, onto the right of privacy. Sure people argue and cry about how invasion of privacy is wrong, but what is being done, and what can be done? NOTHING. Sure, lets speak of "revolution", oh wait. NO, thats considered conspiracy, and you can easily disappear without anyone even knowing nowadays (disappear from work? "wheres bob" oh he was fired, meh oh well) friends and family will have the only suspicion, and what can they do? Report it to the police thats OWNED by the GOVERNMENT. Any signs of a revolution will be squashed, because lets face it, governments already know more about our privacy than they EVER knew back in the day, and this effect is IRREVERSIBLE.

    It is our own fault, and it's already too late. Talk about revolution as much as you like, but now we live in a day where we are even fearful of physical pain, and have equal fears of nonphysical pain and punishments.

    How we've "evolved" from fearing physical to psychological pain, is a wonderful question, but seriously, who's going to step up and "lead" a country to war before they finish stripping all privacy? Perhaps it's already been attempted many times already? Anything that becomes slightly popular, the government will know, and will be all over it and ready to make it disappear.

    WE have created our own cages, where will you be running to when they install cameras in every home? How fearful are you, can you stand up for what you believe in? "Anonymous Cowards" (practically everyone on the internet is 'Anonymous' from a technical sense), unite as you like and talk about revolution. Best of luck

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  60. Re:The EC is there to undermine national constitut by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ahh but it's even better than that. This decision was mas not made in the Commission but in the Council of the European Union. The council is basically a meeting of the affected ministers in the national governments. It's on these meetings that the real decisions on future EU directives are made. This particular stinker was spearheaded by former minister of justice of Sweden, Thomas Bodström.

    The best part of these council meetings are that the proposals doesn't have to be about the niche of the particular subgroup of ministers. This way you can introduce legislation in the most bizarre ways. As an example they tried to sneak through a directive on software patents via Agricultural and Fisheries Commission. It's our European variety of the USian paper clip amendments. This coup tried the good ole 20 december, just before holiday, when everyone just wants to go home, trick as well.

    Ohh and for any US citizens reading this, this more or less exact legislation is being pushed through in the USA as we speak. Check out what Lamar Smith (R-Tx) has been up to with the amendments to bill H.R. 837, the SAFETY (Stopping Adults Facilitating the Exploitation of Today's Youth) act. In Europe they pushed the big brother laws with the threat of terrorists, it seems you USians gets screwed via the 2nd back door to constitutions, ie the think-of-the-children loophole.

  61. What an article... by ioshhdflwuegfh · · Score: 1
    I'd definitely recommend reading the article. The best part concerns Germany:

    "This is an incredibly bad thing in terms of privacy, since people have grown up with the idea that you ought to be able to have an anonymous e-mail account," Mr. Fleischer said. "Moreover, it's totally unenforceable and would never work."
    Ok, now that the thing is incredibly bad and would never work, the article gives Mr. Fleischer's explanation on how to do it:
    Mr. Fleischer said the law would have to require some kind of identity verification, "like you may have to register for an e-mail address with your national ID card."
    Like imagine rows of grudging Germans waiting in a perfect line to register their non-anonymous private e-mails. Ironic?

    Mr. Fleischer said: "It's ironic, because Germany is one of the countries in Europe where people talk the most about privacy. In terms of consciousness of privacy in general, I would put Germany at the extreme end."
    Ironic indeed if you ask yourself which end is this "extreme end" and what kind of consciousness of privacy is in question. Hint: I have heard (here in Germany) with my own ears a friend complaining to a friend: "You behave very individualistically lately!" [translation mine].
  62. And what about Charlie Root? by kompiluj · · Score: 1

    Will he also have to provide his id? He can usually be found at: root@some.host.name.there ;)

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