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Human Nature Trumps Homeland Security

netbuzz writes "Security expert Bruce Schneier suggests this morning that 'there might not be a solution' to our post-9/11 penchant for making domestic anti-terrorism decisions based on the basic human desire to cover one's backside. He might be right. But shouldn't we at least try to figure out a better way? For example, wouldn't 'Commonsense Homeland Security' be a winning political banner, not a risky one? "

304 comments

  1. Causes, not symptoms by Dirtside · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Like it or not, the only reason we have anything to fear from Islamic terrorists is because we've spent decades interfering with their politics. You can't fight an idea, but you can arrange things so that people don't have any motive to blow themselves up.

    --
    "Destroy science and religion. Science would re-emerge exactly the same; but not religion." - Penn Jillette, paraphrased
    1. Re:Causes, not symptoms by eviloverlordx · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Exactly. You don't see terrorist bombings in Norway, because Norway isn't sticking their collective noses in other peoples' business.

      --
      'Loose' is when your pants are three sizes too big. 'Lose' is when you misuse 'loose'.
    2. Re:Causes, not symptoms by spun · · Score: 1

      Cue the vitriolic attacks against this common sense statement by neo-con crazies in 3..2..1..

      Because, you know, suggesting that the universe is comprehensible, that actions have consequences and effects have causes beyond "They're EEEEEVIL!!!" is tantamount to treason these days.

      They hate use for our FREEDOM. End of discussion.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    3. Re:Causes, not symptoms by CRCulver · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Muslim armies were plenty keen on invading the Christian and pagan states around them from the 7th century on, slaughtering the pagans and placing high taxation on the rest. Hard to blame the United States when we're only seeing the latest evolution of a trend dating back over a thousand years before the U.S. existed.

    4. Re:Causes, not symptoms by gardyloo · · Score: 1

      Exactly. You don't see terrorist bombings in Norway, because Norway isn't sticking their collective noses in other peoples' business.

            I thought it was because of the beautiful Fnords!

    5. Re:Causes, not symptoms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Check France, Holland, or Spain recently?

    6. Re:Causes, not symptoms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Just as Christian armies have been plenty keen on invading Muslim and pagan states around them throughout history.

      The unifying notion is that many people fear and hate the unfamiliar, and will wage war against it no matter what it is.

    7. Re:Causes, not symptoms by spun · · Score: 1

      As far as I know, most every state around that time was pretty keen on invading their neighbors. And I'm fairly certain that a long time has passed since then. Do you judge modern Christianity by the actions it took during that period? Thought not.

      I love it when people imply things they are too cowardly to state flat out. Are you denying that US actions have any impact on Muslim attitudes towards us? If you mean it, say it.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    8. Re:Causes, not symptoms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      On the other hand, maybe we can keep interfering to the point where the rate of suicide bombings overtakes the birth rate. That way the problem will eventually take care of itself. Just like the payroll glitch in Office Space.

    9. Re:Causes, not symptoms by CRCulver · · Score: 4, Insightful

      As far as I know, most every state around that time was pretty keen on invading their neighbors. And I'm fairly certain that a long time has passed since then. Do you judge modern Christianity by the actions it took during that period?

      The difference here is that there is continuity between those actions and the present. Islamic extremists look back to the early waves of expansion and say, "That's just, we need to keep it up." Meanwhile, it's hard to find any Christians who are trying to bring back the Byzantine Empire.

      Are you denying that US actions have any impact on Muslim attitudes towards us?

      I don't deny that Muslims feel wronged by the U.S. However, it seems likely that there would be strong impulses towards violence from certain sectors in that society regardless of what the U.S. was doing. Thailand and the Philippines have problems with Muslim insurgencies even though they are not meddling superpowers.

    10. Re:Causes, not symptoms by servognome · · Score: 3, Informative

      Exactly. You don't see terrorist bombings in Norway, because Norway isn't sticking their collective noses in other peoples' business.
      There haven't seen terroist bombings yet in Norway, though they have been directly threatened.
      --
      D6 63 0D 70 89 81 BB 8E 7B 7C 5F 5D 54 EA AB 73
    11. Re:Causes, not symptoms by gurps_npc · · Score: 4, Insightful
      I prefer to be honest. We have not been 'interefering with their politics".

      Instead we let Republican Presidents (yes, it was ALWAYS Republicans that did this, Carter and Clinton did not make this mistake) search out and finding the most vicious, obnoxious, totalitarian, Facists we can find, giving them large amounts of aid, helping them to gain power. Then when we looked at who are friends were and what they were doing, we abandon them, often when they have grown dependent on our aid. This pissed them off, and either they declare us traitors, or they get thrown out of power and the revolutionaries hate us. We did it with Iran (Shah/Khomeni), Panama (Noreiga), Iraq (Hussein), and Afganistan (Bin Laden)

      --
      excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
    12. Re:Causes, not symptoms by silentounce · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Your comment might have been insightful, except for one thing. "the only reason" That shows blatant ignorance. This world is far more complex that. There is no "only reason" for anything. One of the reasons that they want to kill us is because of the political/military interference. Another reason is their hatred of our religion. There is also a centuries old grudge against the West based on the Crusades. That will not go away, EVER. Some few people will always be able to find a "motive" to do evil things. I'm sure if you actually think about it you will be able to come up with more reasons. But you chose to spout your liberal rhetoric that is just as bad and as broad a generalization as the neo-con rhetoric that others replied with. Again, I am only referring to the extremists, the terrorists.

      --
      There are many tongues to talk, and but few heads to think. -Victor Hugo
    13. Re:Causes, not symptoms by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      you can arrange things so that people don't have any motive to blow themselves up.

      I think the situation is a little more complex than that. "Arranging things" so that one group has no motive will very likely give another group motive, especially in the fiercely diverse belief systems throughout the middle east.

      Nonetheless, military strikes are clearly not the solution in most cases, except to combat another agressive military. Random acts of violence are crimes, not military offensives, and should be treated as such.

    14. Re:Causes, not symptoms by eviloverlordx · · Score: 1

      Check France, Holland, or Spain recently?

      And if you had bothered to look, you would have noticed that Spain was part of the coalition in Iraq, and both France and the Netherlands are in Afghanistan.

      --
      'Loose' is when your pants are three sizes too big. 'Lose' is when you misuse 'loose'.
    15. Re:Causes, not symptoms by Dr+Kool,+PhD · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Interfering with their politics? More like daring to a non-Islamic free society. To quote the Aussie PM:

      Australia is a western nation. Nothing can, will or should alter that fact. As such, in this new world, we are a terrorist target. Those who assert that through some calibration of our foreign policy we can buy immunity from terrorist attacks advance a proposition which is both morally flawed and factually wrong.

      It is morally flawed because this nation should never fashion its foreign policy under threat. The foreign policy of Australia should always reflect the values of Australia. Bin Laden identified Australia as a terrorist target because of the intervention in East Timor. Let me pose the question, if that threat had been issued prior to the invention in 1999 should the Australian government have pulled back? I think not. Would the Australian public have wanted the government then in the face of that threat to have pulled back? I think not. The proposition about your foreign policy being adjusted is also factually flawed because the victims of terrorists over the past decade have come from many nations sharing a full variety of foreign policy and strategic views.

    16. Re:Causes, not symptoms by Kozar_The_Malignant · · Score: 3, Informative

      >Check France, Holland, or Spain recently?

      WRT sticking their noses in other people's business, both France and Spain have a long and bloody history of mucking about in (Islamic) north Africa on the one hand and squashing the Basque between them on the other. The Netherlands have their history in the east Indies, but I can't see that Holland is a big terrorist target these days. Random nut-cases aside, of course.
      --
      Some mornings it's hardly worth chewing through the restraints to get out of bed.
    17. Re:Causes, not symptoms by drinkypoo · · Score: 3, Informative

      Okay, so the republicans get us into the problems. Then the dems ostensibly try to get us out with the results that they now hate us. Then the reps get us into something new. Eventually these conflicts boil up into wars that allow us to throw billions at the military-industrial complex, from which both dems and reps profit. So are you sure it's the reps making it all happen? I'd say it's the result of collusion between both parties, or from a more paranoid view, some higher level of organization that really runs both. I'm not really making that assertion, but you do have to realize that both reps and dems are populists, not actually liberals or conservatives, and that they are all part of the same corrupt kleptocracy.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    18. Re:Causes, not symptoms by Dr+Kool,+PhD · · Score: 0, Troll

      Yeah you're right, if we just sit at home and do nothing then terrorists will leave us alone. That idea worked great on September 10th, 2001 so let's try it again.

      Only TWO ways to win the war on terror, take your pick:

      1) Kill all Islamic terrorists.

      2) Convert to Islam.

    19. Re:Causes, not symptoms by spun · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I disagree that there aren't any Christians trying to bring back the Byzantine Empire. In fact, I think that fairly accurately describes what certain Christian groups in the US are trying to do. Our extremists are no better than theirs, so why you might choose to judge a whole religion based on their extremists escapes me.

      Thailand has been through so many governments since the overthrow of the monarchy in 1932, including several brutal military dictatorships, that it does not surprise me that Thai muslims might want in on all the action. As for the Philippines, they have been in a similar position. One does not have to be a super power to meddle, and it's not only meddlers that attract insurgencies. You might want to check how many non-muslim insurgencies a country has had before using them as an example of how Muslims are violent.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    20. Re:Causes, not symptoms by rhombic · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The difference here is that there is continuity between those actions and the present. Islamic extremists look back to the early waves of expansion and say, "That's just, we need to keep it up."
      You mean, except for the several hundred years during which the Islamic states (other than Turkey) were taken over and run as client states by the Europeans, right?

      Meanwhile, it's hard to find any Christians who are trying to bring back the Byzantine Empire.

      Not so hard to find, there's one living at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave, Washington, DC. Check in with him & his boss, Dick.

      Thailand is an outlier, but in the Philippines you've got a non-Muslim government made up of the leftovers of a Spanish & US colonial system. The Muslims in the south were most certainly meddled with by westerners, it just happened long enough ago that most folks in the US have never heard of it. Ditto Indonesia. It amazes me that folks think France can take over Syria, England can take all of Mesopotamia, the US can grab the Philippines, and then set up arbitrary borders, paying no attention to traditional tribal and ethnic boundaries, walk away and be surprised when the people who were essentially enslaved start 1) Fighting with each other and 2) looking for a little payback.

      --
      1984 was supposed to be a warning, not an instruction manual.
    21. Re:Causes, not symptoms by osxadvocate · · Score: 1

      "They hate use [sic] for our FREEDOM. End of discussion." I love when people use pronouns without an antecedent.

    22. Re:Causes, not symptoms by ArcherB · · Score: 1

      Like it or not, the only reason we have anything to fear from Islamic terrorists is because we've spent decades interfering with their politics. You can't fight an idea, but you can arrange things so that people don't have any motive to blow themselves up.

      What has Indesia done? How are they interfering in Islamic politics?

      --
      There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
    23. Re:Causes, not symptoms by maxume · · Score: 2, Informative

      Of course, all the evil acts committed by the people driving the terrorism do confuse the issue.

      An interesting take that minimizes religion as a driver:

      http://www.newyorker.com/printables/fact/061218fa_ fact2

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    24. Re:Causes, not symptoms by spun · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You, sir, are either an idiot or deliberatly trolling. The point is that we were NOT sitting at home leaving them alone on September 10th. We were fucking with them. Learn some history before you embarass yourself again. Who supported the Shah? Who supported Saddam? Who supported and supports the brutal Saudi monarchy? Who sends billions in "aid" to Isreal?

      Are you really that uninformed?

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    25. Re:Causes, not symptoms by Control+Group · · Score: 3, Funny

      The beautiful...?

      Your post would be more comprehensible if there was a word between "beautiful" and the excalamtion point.

      --

      Reality has a conservative bias: it conserves mass, energy, momentum...
    26. Re:Causes, not symptoms by ArcherB · · Score: 1

      Actually, number 2 does not work too well either.

      See Indonesia.

      --
      There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
    27. Re:Causes, not symptoms by Cyraan · · Score: 2, Interesting

      But we weren't just sitting at home, we've been meddling in their affairs for decades, installing and propping up murderous dictators, and sometimes assassinating democratically elected leaders in the process. While obviously not all their grievances against us are legitimate, the fact is our actions in the past have helped to shape theirs in the present.

      --
      "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from a religious conviction." - Blaise Pascal
    28. Re:Causes, not symptoms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you really think that on Sept 10, 2001 the US was just sitting at home and doing nothing? We have been messing about in the middle east for *decades*. Islamic extremists have hated the US for just as long. Just because we only gave it a catchy name - The WAR on TERROR! - after sept 11 doesn't mean the conflict started then.

      And there is another way to win the war on terror: Namely wait for the current generation of terrorists to fade away, and STOP pissing off the next generation so they don't grow up hating us. It's a long term proposition, but it's fitting that it should take decades to fix what took decades to mess up.

    29. Re:Causes, not symptoms by ArcherB · · Score: 1

      We did it with Iran (Shah/Khomeni), Panama (Noreiga), Iraq (Hussein), and Afganistan (Bin Laden),

      Actually, bailing on Iran was Carter's doing. The other two you can "blame" Republicans, but notice how Panama and Afghanistan have been "fixed".

      --
      There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
    30. Re:Causes, not symptoms by ArcherB · · Score: 0

      Random acts of violence are crimes, not military offensives, and should be treated as such.

      Some say that attitude is what caused 9-11. I'm sorry, but jaywalking is a crime. 9-11, the Cole, and various embassy bombings are acts of war.

      --
      There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
    31. Re:Causes, not symptoms by Kenrod · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Like it or not, the only reason we have anything to fear from Islamic terrorists is because we've spent decades interfering with their politics. You can't fight an idea, but you can arrange things so that people don't have any motive to blow themselves up.



      History does not agree with you, for reasons others have pointed out. This has been going on for centuries. The only thing that has changed in the past few decades is that oil wealth and technology have finally made it possible for Islamic terrorists to effectively strike us at home in the US and Europe.

      The important factor is that Western cultural ideas are threatening conservative Islamic ideas - this is the real threat the jihadists perceive. They don't hate our interference in politics, it's our "interference" in their culture. Are you willing to compromise your liberal Western values to appease Islamic conservatives? Are you willing to ignore their hideous human rights abuses?

      --
      Good heavens Miss Sakamoto - you're beautiful!
    32. Re:Causes, not symptoms by servognome · · Score: 1

      Like it or not, the only reason we have anything to fear from Islamic terrorists is because we've spent decades interfering with their politics. You can't fight an idea, but you can arrange things so that people don't have any motive to blow themselves up.
      The US has made a number of enemies by interfering, not just in the Middle East, but also South America. But to say that's the reason Islamic terrorists hate the US is wrong. Denmark has reason to fear terrorists, and all they did was print a cartoon!
      Fundamentalists, no matter whether they are Islamic, Christian or other, feel threatened by ideas such as secular government and free speech. Closed-minded people with guns no matter what they believe (religion, environmentalism, nationalism) is the reason there is a threat.

      Just because there is a threat though, doesn't mean there should be fear. We should fear drunk drivers more than any terrorist threat.
      --
      D6 63 0D 70 89 81 BB 8E 7B 7C 5F 5D 54 EA AB 73
    33. Re:Causes, not symptoms by CRCulver · · Score: 4, Informative

      They only really got sectarian after they were attacked by Christians, who were involved in campaigns to kill any group who didn't join them.

      All I can say is, pick up a history textbook. Muslim armies sprang out of Arabia and overran the Empire before the Christians had ever heard of this new religion. The Byzantine Empire had been tied up for two decades at that part in a war with the Persians, none of the Empire's attention was on the Arabian peninsula. The pagans there, and subsequently the early Muslims who then subdued the pagans, lived in isolation and were unmolested by the Empire. Sorry, but as many examples of Christian violence you might be able to point to in the years to come, the Muslims really did strike the first blow here.

    34. Re:Causes, not symptoms by krotkruton · · Score: 4, Insightful

      There haven't seen terroist bombings yet in Norway, though they have been directly threatened.

      That sounds a lot like the US administration when they try to scare the public by saying that just because we haven't been attacked since 9/11, doesn't mean that the terrorists won't attack tomorrow...

    35. Re:Causes, not symptoms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "That idea worked great on September 10th, 2001 so let's try it again."

      Tower 7 was never hit by a plane. It came down in an unexplainable textbook demolition style against inconceivable odds. So what's the difference between 2001.09.10 and 2001.00.11?

    36. Re:Causes, not symptoms by Yetihehe · · Score: 0

      It's because they don't matter so much. When in USA WTC was destroyed, the whole world was speaking about this, and this was "news" for a week. If something like this happened in Poland for example, it would be maybe at end.

      --
      Extreme Programming - Redundant Array of Inexpensive Developers
    37. Re:Causes, not symptoms by Savage-Rabbit · · Score: 4, Funny

      Exactly. You don't see terrorist bombings in Norway, because Norway isn't sticking their collective noses in other peoples' business. Sure they do, Norwegian claims to fishing grounds in the North Atlantic are quite aggressive to the point of where you could classify them as a comic form of miniature Imperialism and they cause constant friction in Norway's diplomatic relations with it's neighbors. The reason you don't hear about armed clashes in the region is simply that North Atlantic costal states such as Russia, Norway and Iceland have long since abandoned such futile methods as conventional warfare for solving disputes about fish in favor of consuming large amounts of alcohol and then mooning each other from the bridge wings of their trawlers. The tactic gained popularity after it worked wonders against the destroyers and frigates of the Royal Navy during the cod wars of the 1950's and 70's.
      --
      Only to idiots, are orders laws.
      -- Henning von Tresckow
    38. Re:Causes, not symptoms by gardyloo · · Score: 1

      Your post would be more comprehensible if there was a word between "beautiful" and the excalamtion point.

              Must be that damned slashdot filter ;)

    39. Re:Causes, not symptoms by sumdumass · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The train attacks in Spain came from local sources. It had nothing to do with any involvment in Iraq except it being brought up by the "Why did it happen croud". Spain was being held hostage by violent terrorist since way before Iraq was on the radar.

      And this makes me wonder if any "common sence" approach to national security could ever come about. It seems that everyone wanting something else doesn't understand the picture or the threat that is being presented to us. Bin Laden cowtails to some extream religios view for personal gain because just like any other religions because it helps get people on his side (it has recuiting benifits). And I think these others are somehow being sucked in.

      It isn't that there cannot be "common sence" security. The problem is that when people demonstrate that they do not know what the problems are or that they are incappable of interpreting it, the solutions would always seem lacking. National security is already a ballence between preserving freedoms and effective security measures. But to have someone suggest a change in lue of security for more freedom when they cannot even get the picture of what is going on correct means that it will fail or makes us less safe (the reasons it will fail).

      I'm not saying shut all the idiots up or anything. That would end up shutting me up too. The debate is a good thing but some home work needs to be done before making the claim about "laxing this aspect of security". I don't want to get attacked because some asshat who has little clue thinks this should work. The attitude now is that terrorism only exists because we are in Iraq and neglects many other aspects of it. You even made the claim that Spains problems were because of Iraq when they weren't. This shows they are winning the propaganda game.

    40. Re:Causes, not symptoms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      How about judging a whole religion based on how many of them are extremists?

    41. Re:Causes, not symptoms by servognome · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That sounds a lot like the US administration when they try to scare the public by saying that just because we haven't been attacked since 9/11, doesn't mean that the terrorists won't attack tomorrow...
      The US administration is right, some terrorist group will strike the US; the problem is that people don't put terrorism in perspective.
      20,000 people die each year from the flu, perhaps there should be some sort of war on virii declared - maybe we'll get universal health care funding :)
      --
      D6 63 0D 70 89 81 BB 8E 7B 7C 5F 5D 54 EA AB 73
    42. Re:Causes, not symptoms by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Part of spain and france's more recent history of mucking about in northern africa comes directly from the end of WW1 and the league of nations mandate that ordered them to administer peace and set them up for rule on their own. This was portions of the previous "ottoman empire" who were conquereed previous to the great war.

      Ironicly, the US and Briton has had a better track record on this when dealing with territories and the fall of the ottoman empire. More terroritories to date were under local control faster when the US or Briton had control of them. Of course were some problem spots that will make everything look worse.

    43. Re:Causes, not symptoms by LunaticTippy · · Score: 1

      You wanna buy some spray-on contrast enhancer that'll allow you to read that word? Only $20! Comes with a free daypass on the saucer!

      --
      Man, you really need that seminar!
    44. Re:Causes, not symptoms by amRadioHed · · Score: 1

      Not so hard to find, there's one living at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave, Washington, DC. Check in with him & his boss, Dick. Bush I believe, but most of them are only interested in Christianity as a tool to manipulate their base.
      --
      We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
    45. Re:Causes, not symptoms by diablomonic · · Score: 1, Interesting
      Actually, while I agree with your comment (if you dont want bees to sting you, dont whack their hive repeatedly with a baseball bat) I dont fear islamic terrorists. I've yet to see any massive attacks that were organised successfully by them and them alone, all the major ones (eg 9/11) were OTHER groups blaming it on the islamic bogeymen (and hell, after whats been done to Palestine Lebanon Iraq Afghanistan etc while hypocritically claiming the moral high ground in the name of "democracy" (which the US is NOT, you cant have democracy if you cant even count the votes without cheating, nor is it a true democracy if the real power gives you two or three pre-chosen candidates to "pick" from) I at least understand their motives (that doesnt make terrorism ok though).

      9/11 was an inside job. How else do you explain the

      - air force stand down (more than one jet fighter scramble PER WEEK in the year leading up to 9/11, supposedly none till too late on 9/11)

      - more than half a dozen millitary "drills" going on many of which "strangely" coincided with aspects of 9/11, and most of which seemed to deliberately tie up key resources which may have affected the events that day

      - WTC7 symmetrical collapse, looking like the best example of controlled demolition I've ever seen, admitted by the owner to be controlled demolition, admitted by multiple witnesses to have been controlled demolition, yet officially fell from random assymetrical fire and minor (compared to the building size/construction) damage. (hint, CD takes weeks to months to plan, and days to set up properly, so how could they have done it in less than 7 hours?)

      - twin towers, DESIGNED to take the impacts and fires from similar sized airplane hits, main construction manager thought it would be able to take MULTIPLE strikes per building (and he should know) without failing, yet small (yes they where, look at the windsor building for large fires) fires and designed for damage bring them straight down and pulverise them mid air.

      - No steel framed high rise has EVER collapsed from fire before. many steel framed high rises have burned wildly for many hours, even days, making the wtc fires look like bic lighters, yet the didnt collapse.

      - many witnesses claim seeing/hearing explosions, charge sequences, CD style demolition, claims of secondary devices were all over the place on the day.

      - literally HUNDREDS of other major discrepencies and outright fabrications in the official conspiracy theories.

      given that it was an inside job, government restrictions on airtravel etc will have no effect on the next 9/11 (which they are planning to have an excuse to invade Iran) since the black government will of course be able to use its connections to bypass it, just as they did on 9/11 (look up how these supposed islamic hijacker patsies even GOT in the country, and where they trained for "their" attack)

      I will stop here, as those of you who are listening can go off and research it yourself (hint for people unfamiliar with all this, dont trust ANY web site 100% to tell you the whole truth, there are many disinfo sites and sites by people confused by disinfo out there, and often no way to be sure 100% which is which. Also ALWAYS look up the source of a claim, as many mainstream (and supposedly "trustworthy"...) sites will claim someone is saying x (x = crazy claim) when they are really claiming Y ( y = not so crazy claim) to discredit them).

      Those of you who arent listening, probably wont even get this far..

      --
      watch "the money masters" on google video
    46. Re:Causes, not symptoms by rhombic · · Score: 3, Informative

      Bush I believe, but most of them are only interested in Christianity as a tool to manipulate their base.

      What makes you think OBL, Hezbollah, or any of the others are any different? Religion as a tool to manipulate the base goes back to the beginning.

      --
      1984 was supposed to be a warning, not an instruction manual.
    47. Re:Causes, not symptoms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Islamic terrorists target the USA because of the USA's involvement with Israel.
      Cut those ties and the Islamic side of the equation could care less about us and would probably like to continue to do business.

      This is not our fight. We as a country with our leaders chose to fight this battle by siding with the enemy.

    48. Re:Causes, not symptoms by krotkruton · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You're preaching to the choir on that one, but that really isn't what you were talking about before. I read somewhere that you are more likely to be killed by a pig than a terrorist (of course, that statistic leaves out a lot of relevant information, but still).

      It seemed like you were trying to counter the idea that the US is drawing the attention of terrorists by sticking it's nose in others' business with the fact that even Norway, who has not been attacked, has been threatened. Being threatened is not the same as being attacked. I'd be surprised to find out if there was a single country who has never been threatened by terrorists, and am also fairly certain that the majority of countries who have been threatened by Muslim fundamentalists have not been attacked.

    49. Re:Causes, not symptoms by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      Meanwhile, it's hard to find any Christians who are trying to bring back the Byzantine Empire.

      Let's see.... Christians taking drastic actions to injure or limit the rights of non-Christians.... Abortion clinic bombings, the "Provisional IRA" bombings in Great Britain a few years back, the KKK, "God's Army" in Myanmar....

      For that matter, even if we ignore groups that are committing atrocities in God's name, it's still not hard to find people who are trying to bring back the Roman Empire in one form or another. You just have to look around you to find countless examples of Christian extremists trying to force a Christian state. Heck, what about the Creationist/Intelligent Design movement that wants to get religion into public schools? Less drastic, mind you, but still trying to break down the separation of church and state.

      Look around. Intolerance is still very much a part of our modern society, Christian or otherwise.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    50. Re:Causes, not symptoms by Dunbal · · Score: 2, Insightful

      9-11, the Cole, and various embassy bombings are acts of war.



            Against WHO, God damn it? You don't even know who your enemy is. Stop trying to pretend you're fighting a "war"!

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    51. Re:Causes, not symptoms by maxume · · Score: 1

      Indonesia has a significant Muslim population(a majority). Indonesian politics *are* Islamic politics.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    52. Re:Causes, not symptoms by Dunbal · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Only TWO ways to win the war on terror

            So when are you thinking of converting? Your first method is impossible unless you propose genocide - because the more "islamic terrorists" you kill the more "islamic terrorists" you create.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    53. Re:Causes, not symptoms by Original+Replica · · Score: 1

      both France and Spain have a long and bloody history of mucking about in (Islamic) north Africa on the one hand and squashing the Basque between them on the other. The Netherlands have their history in the east Indies

      Why are most terrorist groups claiming grievences that are long dead history? If several generations ago, you lost you homeland in a war. Guess what? It's gone. Get over it. I don't go around killing Navajo, just because they moved in on Hopi land. Maybe if we could get the mainstream Arab populations and the American Military to admit that most of these issues are long dead, and they are just excuses for power grabbing violence, then we could begin to bridge our cultural differences.

      --
      We are all just people.
    54. Re:Causes, not symptoms by Max+Littlemore · · Score: 2, Interesting

      No, the Egyptians struct the first blow. The Greeks did a fair bit of damage too.

      Sure, that was before either religion existed, but they did, but these wars were based on empire building as much as religion. The fact is that as a whole, the history of Islam shows far more tolerance of other religions than Christianity. There are _still_ missionaries travelling the world "saving" savages for fucks sake!

      I understand that this view will not be popular here, because this is a US based site, most Americans are Christian and the current propaganda demonises Islam, but hey, karma is action and gotsta do it.

      --
      I don't therefore I'm not.
    55. Re:Causes, not symptoms by amRadioHed · · Score: 1

      You're not wrong. Some are true believers but most who use religion to gain influence probably aren't, that's pretty much what I was getting at.

      --
      We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
    56. Re:Causes, not symptoms by CRCulver · · Score: 1

      The fact is that as a whole, the history of Islam shows far more tolerance of other religions than Christianity.

      No. The emperors allowed mosques and synagogues to be built in the Empire. And even after centuries of Turkish occupation and seeing children taken off as janissaries, several Balkan states still allow mosques, and even keep them up with government funds when there aren't worshipers left. Meanwhile, in many Muslim states, building a new church is difficult indeed (totally illegal in Saudi Arabia, the heart of the Muslim word), and in states like Egypt and Turkey even simple repairs cannot be made without permission from the government.

      There are _still_ missionaries travelling the world "saving" savages for fucks sake!

      Muslims have missionaries as well.

      I understand that this view will not be popular here, because this is a US based site, most Americans are Christian and the current propaganda demonises Islam.

      Many of the most vocal commentators against Islam in the so-called "neo-conservative" are atheist or agnostic.

    57. Re:Causes, not symptoms by drsmithy · · Score: 1

      Why are most terrorist groups claiming grievences that are long dead history?

      Because it allows them to take the easy way out and lay the blame for their currently fucked-up situations at the feet of others, rather than doing the hard work to fix it themselves.

      The only time people advance socially, culturally, artistically and technologically, is when they spend more time trying to remedy the problems in their lives themselves than they do tring to use others as scapegoats.

    58. Re:Causes, not symptoms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A normal fire wouldn't get hot enough to melt steel. Now take a fire caused by an explosion of a plane full of jet fuel. Wouldn't that be just a little hotter then a normal structure fire?

      Or lets explain further.... How does controlled demolition bring down buildings?

      Well to answer my own question it does so by destroying key structure points with numerous small explosions and thus bringing the building down like that. Now if a fire was hot enough, it would melt "key" structure points and without those structure points, wouldn't it be possible to bring down any building? The fact that those buildings stayed up for awhile after the collisions does tell you that at the very least they were built well.

      But sure, lets believe its a huge government conspiracy just so the US could invade the middle east. What would have stopped us from doing that in the first place? We never needed an event like that in the past to do so....Why would we need it now?

    59. Re:Causes, not symptoms by kgskgs · · Score: 1

      So not true,

      Having considerable exposure to Islamic society, I strongly disagree your statement.

      Since the beginning of Islam, the Islamic empire, which is a monolithic system of law, governance, religion, economy etc. was spreading. 18th, 19th and 20th century saw serious decline of that influence. It is just an unfortunate stage in the life cycle of a religion. Mostly all major religions have been through this. Islam, being the youngest religion is going through it right now. I recommend you to read "Crisis of Islam", Bernard Lewis.

      It's a real serious danger and no matter what Western world does, the clash cannot be avoided. If you keep quiet, Islamic fanatics will conclude that you are scared and come after you. If you fight back, they will conclude that you are committing atrocities and will come after you. It is naive to think that they want peace.

      Have you seen the movie "Nuremberg" starring Alec Baldwin?? Do you remember what the psychologist analyzing Himmler says? "Two things observed in German society before WW-II. One is they have this sense of superiority-by-birth which makes them think others are not human enough, and second is they tend to follow the leader like sheep, healthy dissent is almost absent." Now this is what macro picture of Islamic world today. I am not denying that there must be people and group who still think with level heads. But this is really macro level picture. Ask any Muslim about Homosexuality and almost universally you will hear them criticizing it. Ask if there is a single book written by Muslim that takes a critical approach to Koran and you will find none.

      In their attempts to be politically correct, people deny this reality. In my opinion this is really unfortunate state, with serious conflict of interest and ideologies with West, but it will pass over time. It's dangerous, but impermanent.

      About Western policies, yes there have been some unfortunate choices Western world has made. But that is not the real reason here. USA has caused far more damage to Vietnam than to any middle eastern country. Yet no terrorist comes from Vietnam.

    60. Re:Causes, not symptoms by Watson+Ladd · · Score: 1

      Bailing wasn't the problem. Supporting the Shah was. If we had killed him ourselves, we could have made good friends with the Islamic parties and exerted a liberalizing influence. While appeasement isn't a good policy in general, when it comes to popular revolts you don't have much of a choice.

      --
      Inventions have long since reached their limit, and I see no hope for further development.-- Frontinus, 1st cent. AD
    61. Re:Causes, not symptoms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How about judging a whole religion based on how many of them are extremists?

      Then judging by how many christian fundies we have crawling out of the woodwork here in the US, I'd say christians in general are a pretty fucked up bunch. Seems like most of them are either christian in name only and they don't really bother to conform to how their religion says they should behave, or they're complete nutjobs that take the bible literally and think we need to convert the entire world.
    62. Re:Causes, not symptoms by janeowit · · Score: 1

      Check France, Holland, or Spain recently?

      And if you had bothered to look, you would have noticed that Spain was part of the coalition in Iraq...


      You forgot Poland.

      --
      Paper beats rock. Rock beats scissors. Science beats romance.
    63. Re:Causes, not symptoms by Christoph · · Score: 1

      Like it or not, the only reason we have anything to fear from Islamic terrorists is because we've spent decades interfering with their politics.

      And the reason for Islamic terrorism against other muslims is -- ? In Iraq, Saudia Arabia, Morocco and Algeria, Muslim on Muslim terrorist violence (sectarian or otherwise) represents a gaping hole in your logic.

      Islamic terrorists target Western interests and local interests. Your argument seeks to blame the victim, saying that Westerners murdered by terrorsts "deserve it".

      America interfered in Vietnam and Somalia, in the latter case to try and save starving muslims...those contries are not responded by engaging in terrorist campaigns against the US. The reasons are complex and go beyond American simply deserving to have it's citizens murdered (as if the U.S. is the only country to have misguided or selfish foriegn policies...should we be sending Americans to Germany to conduct terrorist attacks in retaliation for WWII?)

    64. Re:Causes, not symptoms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, bailing on Iran was Carter's doing. The other two you can "blame" Republicans, but notice how Panama and Afghanistan have been "fixed".

      Carter didn't create the Iran problem. And Afghanistan is far from fixed. We're likely to see a renewed Taliban offensive pretty soon.
    65. Re:Causes, not symptoms by bnenning · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Many of the most vocal commentators against Islam in the so-called "neo-conservative" are atheist or agnostic.

      Yep. As an agnostic conservative/libertarian, I condemn all forms of religious extremism, and it's blatantly obvious that the Muslim world has a particular problem in that area. (And no, the rare abortion clinic bombing by a deranged lunatic doesn't remotely compare to government-sanctioned stoning of homosexuals). It's amazing how so many on the left will defend the most illiberal regimes on the planet, in order to avoid admitting that conservatives might have a point. If Bush being pro-life upsets you, you should be absolutely infuriated with the treatment of women under Muslim theocracies. The enemy of your enemy is not your friend.

      --
      How to solve most of our problems: 1.Lots of nuclear plants. 2.Cure aging.
    66. Re:Causes, not symptoms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Convenient that you say that norway has it so great because they dont stick their noses into their business yet you always call on the US to solve the rest of the worlds problems by way of us sticking our noses in their business. Just find it funny that this argument is only used when it suits your political agenda.

    67. Re:Causes, not symptoms by Chris+Burke · · Score: 3, Interesting

      That sounds a lot like the US administration when they try to scare the public by saying that just because we haven't been attacked since 9/11, doesn't mean that the terrorists won't attack tomorrow...

      Now, this is just me, and of course I don't approve of this being used politically by Bush&Co to scare people into voting for them, but in a way I think he is right. I think Dick Cheney was right when he said that the Democrats taking control of the country could result in more terrorist attacks on U.S. soil.

      The basic reason is that as of right now there is still no need to attack the U.S. 9/11 got Osama bin Laden just about everything he could have ever dreamed for in response. We not only invaded one Muslim country but two, and think about what great P.R. that makes for his brochures! "U.S. wants to invade Muslim states and destroy them!" is much more convincing when you can point to a T.V. showing American troops occupying a Muslim state, right? "U.S. is full of depraved pyschopaths who hate us!" is much more convincing when you see pictures from abu Ghraib, no? Then there's the fact that we are being bloodied so badly in Iraq. The quagmire there is weakening us, just like Russia's failed occupation of Afghanistan weakened them. Not to mention Iraq is now a fantastic recruiting and training ground for more terrorists, who have grown multiplied faster than we can kill them. No single attack on us could hurt us as badly as what we are doing to ourselves in Iraq.

      So as long as the "War on Terror" continues full force, al Qaeda et al don't really need to bother with us directly. The War on Terror is exactly what they want.

      Now lets say that a new president comes in and starts rolling back the war on terror, pulls our troops out of Iraq. Well that won't do! Recruiting is a lot tougher when "America wants to kill Muslims!" is merely a hypothetical argument. So what's the obvious thing to do? Poke the tiger again! Another 9/11 so that even the most peacenik Pres of all time would have to bomb the shit out of somebody.

      We are vulnerable when we are crazy-scared of terrorism, running around doing stupid things and basically becoming our own worst enemy. So if we stop doing that, I say expect another attack to try to get us riled up and crazy again.

      The key thing to note is that this is the reaction they want, and thus it is imperative that we don't do it.

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    68. Re:Causes, not symptoms by recharged95 · · Score: 1
      Was Norway hasn't been terrorized is because they pay the US (and other miltarized nations) to do it (through so called agreements of course like the world bank).

      Terrorism is not a linear, universal thing. It is about an idea, but a localized one.

      Hence, get rid of the oil problem. Problem solved.

    69. Re:Causes, not symptoms by db32 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And here is key point number one that I hate dealing with. Disagreeing with the US draconian system, the fast erosion of freedoms, the destruction of the constitution, the paranoia, the fear, the christian dogma plaguing our government and school systems(Note: I don't have a problem with christianity, I have a problem with christians as 90% of them just don't seem to get what Jesus spoke about), doesn't mean I am defending anyone elses insanity. My problem is that we need to clean up our own problems before we go off as Team America to save the world from those heathen religious extremists with our "crusade" (Excellent choice of words Mr. President, they certainly won't be bothered by a reference to the last time westerners slaughtered their friends and family in their homeland). We have mucked about and played stupid games with all the governments over there for ages. We have played them against each other and we have played them against the russians, and we have an excellent track record of not even giving a second look to a country with nukes that breaks the law, only countries trying to get nukes that we don't like. France and Russia were HUGE violators of selling Iraq arms...did we care...nope. N. Korea and Iran see this clearly and obviously want whatever it is that keeps the other violators from being invaded. We played Iraq vs Iran, and then attacked Iraq later when we changed our minds, is there any reason for Iran to trust ANYTHING we say since we told Saddam he was our great buddy for killing Iranians and then turned on him? In that famous little 7 day war everyone likes to talk about with God protecting Israel...noone mentions that with no intel of their own they were able to conduct precision strikes against Egyptian forces, nor does anyone talk about how the US negotiated with Egypt to not strike first when they closed their canal and Israel went berserk. We begged and pleaded with Egypt, don't strike, let us calm them down...and then Israel struck and we looked the other way and likely gave some form of support (questionable, but that part of the world believes without doubt that we assisted)

      To paraphrase the man who everyone claims is on their side when they justify this horrific foreign policy. How can you tell your brother he has a mote of dust in his eye when you have a log in yours? We got ourselves in this situation...and fighting through it won't make it any better. Cure the disease, not the symptoms. The current state of affairs are just symptoms of our unbelievably awful international policy. Fix our behavior and many of the problems will start to lessen if not disappear over the years. This isn't appeasement like the ultra conservatives like to claim, its called setting the example. We are supposed to be the beacon of light on the hill, lets act like it for a change.

      --
      The only change I can believe in is what I find in my couch cushions.
    70. Re:Causes, not symptoms by don_bear_wilkinson · · Score: 1

      If I could, I'd mod you up, Insightful. :)

      --
      In Nature, stupidity is a capital offense. In human society, too many get off with less than a warning.
    71. Re:Causes, not symptoms by bnenning · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You can't fight an idea, but you can arrange things so that people don't have any motive to blow themselves up.

      Certainly; we could adopt sharia and allow them to exterminate the Jews. Islamic extremists are not otherwise rational people who are only striking at us because of our injustices. In their own countries they're stoning homosexuals and adulterers/rape victims, forbidding women from learning to read, and violently suppressing other religions. We didn't make them do that. We could cease all military involvement in the Middle East (which I'm all for, step 1 is lots of nuke plants), but they'd still have plenty of problems with us.

      --
      How to solve most of our problems: 1.Lots of nuclear plants. 2.Cure aging.
    72. Re:Causes, not symptoms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      we could have made good friends with the Islamic parties and exerted a liberalizing influence.

      There are many people in the conservative areas of the U.S. who would not be happy with this unless the Islamic parties could be converted to Christianity. There was even a congressman who suggested that another Islamic congressman was part of a conspiracy to dechristianize America.

      So yes, your analysis is correct, and that approach would have been beneficial, but unfortunately it would have been politically challenging due to the ignorance which prevails in certain circles.
    73. Re:Causes, not symptoms by peruvianllama · · Score: 1

      Religion as a tool to manipulate the base goes back to the beginning. True. In fact, manipulating the base goes back to the beginning, and using religion as a tool is completely a corollary to this fact. The persistent need (not necessarily yours, just using your post as a springboard) to associate religion with all the bad deeds done in its name is shortsighted. Human nature is to exploit and manipulate, to coerce and to steal. That these things have been done while using religion as an excuse is reprehensible, but should not be enough to motivate ill-will against religion itself. Corruption is everywhere, and we should not be any more surprised to find it within the ranks of organized religion than than within national militaries or local government.
    74. Re:Causes, not symptoms by ArcherB · · Score: 0

      Against WHO, God damn it?

      The World Health Organization has nothing to do with this.

      You don't even know who your enemy is. Stop trying to pretend you're fighting a "war"!

      Seriously, if we can have a "War on Poverty" and a "War on Drugs", we can have a war on terror. If you call it a crime, there's not a damn thing we can do about it. While boats are headed for the Cole, did you expect the Navy to call the NYPD? While a truck bomb is barreling towards an embassy, do you call the local Nambian police force? Fuck NO! You call the fucking Marines! Policeman don't blow up training bases and overthrow terror supporting regimes such as the Taliban.

      Terrorism is a global problem. Police are local.

      --
      There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
    75. Re:Causes, not symptoms by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Think about things for a few seconds. A lot of these groups we are complaining about are calling for the establishment of a state run purely on fundamentalist Islamic lines somewhere in the world. That they don't have it anywhere should be enough to stop people lumping everyone in close proximity to a Muslim (it includes Lebanese and Palestinian Christians too remember) in together with Bin Laden.

    76. Re:Causes, not symptoms by Shashvat · · Score: 1

      Just to add to the mix - Suharto, the longtime president/dictator of Indonesia, was supported economically and militarily by the US and UK.

      --
      cat /dev/null >.sig
    77. Re:Causes, not symptoms by DrDitto · · Score: 1

      The U.S. tried to isolate itself from the rest of the world in the early part of the 20th century. Then WWI and WWII happened. Were those wars the fault of the United States? Of course not. The politics of Europe allowed a dictator to come to power and systematically slaughter millions of Jews. WWII changed the world and created the military superpower that is the U.S. today. The rest of Western World (including Europe) relies on the U.S. to be the military superpower.

      I don't like George Bush. I never voted for him or his father. I am against the Iraq war. But please get some perspective on the responsibilities that "Old Europe" placed in the hands of the United States.

    78. Re:Causes, not symptoms by psu_whammy · · Score: 1

      I've never seen the flu shut down the New York Stock Exchange, or air travel coast-to-coast.

      Just playing devil's advocate.

    79. Re:Causes, not symptoms by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      Indeed. If only Jefferson hadn't resisted the Barbary pirates, we wouldn't be in this mess.

      14 years is too long. Get the troops out of Tripoli!

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    80. Re:Causes, not symptoms by Viceroy+Potatohead · · Score: 1

      Pish. Pick which end of the egg you want to crack, it's the same thing. Clinton in Somalia, for example, or one of the big issues and (at least perceived) injustices, Truman and the formation of Israel. Maybe it's not "finding the most vicious....fascists" you can find, but it's political and societal interference of equal magnitude.

    81. Re:Causes, not symptoms by kadehje · · Score: 1

      "Against WHO, God damn it? You don't even know who your enemy is. Stop trying to pretend you're fighting a 'war'!"

      Crashing a plane into the Pentagon, sailing an explosive-filled boat into a United States destroyer, and detonating truck bombs outside American embassies were overt attacks on the United States. In addition to killing civilians, as ordinary terrorism entails, these attacks sought to directly injure the United States government. Especially when self-described members of al Qaeda use terms like "jihad" and "holy war" to describe these actions, to me that's as clear as war gets.

      Using your definition, I guess the Catholic Church could have never embarked in acts of war during the 11th through 14th centuries. After all, by then the Church's de jure power across Europe had nearly vanished. The fact that various kingdoms across the continent who had little in common other than their religious beliefs united to take part in the Crusades must mean that their Church-sanctioned campaigns were only random acts of violence, not war.

      Even though al Qaeda is not a sovereign state per se does not disqualify them as being a legitimate enemy of the United States. Many people, especially those opposed to the war in Iraq, find it easy to get that most of the world, including Russia and Pakistan, initially backed the American action in Afghanistan following the terrorist attacks as a justified military operation. It wasn't until after the U.S. started its hissy fit and later open hostilities against Saddam Hussein that the majority of the world began disapproving American policy ostensibly against terrorism.

      Its sad that the Bush administration has gotten so sidetracked. If he had stayed the original course, I think the (Western) world really would be safer than terrorism than it is today.

    82. Re:Causes, not symptoms by syousef · · Score: 1

      The trouble with an eye for an eye is that everyone ends up blind.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    83. Re:Causes, not symptoms by pete6677 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Why is the Abu Sayaf (a Muslim terrorist group) terrorizing the Philippines? What did they do to deserve it? Could it be that maybe George Bush isn't really the cause of all the world's problems? Besides, are you saying the U.S. deserved 9/11 and that Spain and England deserved the train bombings?

    84. Re:Causes, not symptoms by krotkruton · · Score: 1

      Besides this being offtopic, I think that's pretty ridiculous for a couple reasons.

      1. You give reasons why it is easy to recruit with all the things the US is doing, and then say, Recruiting is a lot tougher when "America wants to kill Muslims!" is merely a hypothetical argument.
      Is recruiting the main goal of a terrorist group? I don't know exactly what the goal is of some of these fundamentalist groups, but I think it has more to do with killing infidels than converting them (didn't want to use the word infidel because its such a cliche, but I couldn't think of anything better and I think it conveys the meaning).

      2. We are vulnerable when we are crazy-scared of terrorism, running around doing stupid things and basically becoming our own worst enemy. So if we stop doing that, I say expect another attack to try to get us riled up and crazy again.
      So you claim that they want to keep us in a state of vulnerability, and that they will be more likely to attack when we aren't vulnerable so that they can make us vulnerable again? Does that really make a lot of sense? I'm not saying that terrorism makes a lot of sense, but that idea is pretty out there.

      3. The basic reason is that as of right now there is still no need to attack the U.S. 9/11 got Osama bin Laden just about everything he could have ever dreamed for in response.
      And there was a need to attack the US before 9/11? Was 9/11 really necessary for these groups to carry out their goals? You said Osama got everything he wanted out of 9/11, so does that mean his whole goal was to make recruiting easier? I have trouble believing that those terorrists were sitting around saying, "Our numbers are down. Let's plan the most elaborate attack in history to boost are recruiting." And then after the attack, "Hey that worked great. Let's just sit back and watch the fresh blood roll in! No need to do anything else until some people start deserting."

      4. I think Dick Cheney was right when he said that the Democrats taking control of the country could result in more terrorist attacks on U.S. soil.
      Alright, I have an idea of your thought process here. You're a democrat who's tired (or more likely has been tired for a long time) of hearing people say that if a Democrat was in office, they'd most likely be "weak on terror" by stopping the torture and harsh treatment of potential terror suspects and all the other bullshit that those types of people like to spout because they think being American makes their lives worth more than others' (just to point out, I'm a liberal, I hate Bush, I'm from the US, and I did not say that that is how all Americans think, just a certain group of jack asses). Now, after hearing this one too many times, you decided to come up with a hypothetical that illustrates how the current administration is actually doing exactly what the terrorists want, to counter the idea that getting a Dem in office would be falling into their plans. Your theory was born of this twisted logic. Actually, your theory is definitely possible. So is the other theory. So are a multitude of other theories. Hell, the moon landing might have been faked too, but just because a theory is possible, doesn't mean it makes any sense.

    85. Re:Causes, not symptoms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Who supported the Shah?

      1. Remove the only democratically elected leader of Iran.
      2. Support the Shah, sending military supplies (including F-14's) to reinforce his dictatorship
      3. ???
      4. Profit!

    86. Re:Causes, not symptoms by krotkruton · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Actually, you were just supporting the argument. You (or at least your post if you don't actually believe what you said), along with most people, don't put terrorism into perspective. You're saying that shutting down the NYSE and air travel along with 2,973 deaths in a single event is more important than 20,000 deaths each year along with lowered productivity and missed days at work which have a significant economic impact. I'm not saying that I think we need a war on the flu, but if you think that your statement is a good counter to the parent's, then you've missed the point and have become a perfect example of it.

    87. Re:Causes, not symptoms by Beryllium+Sphere(tm) · · Score: 1

      There has been a polling effort about attitudes toward terrorism worldwide.

      One question was about attitudes toward "bombing and other attacks intentionally aimed at civilians". Here are percentages of people who considered such things "never justified", in the most populous Muslim countries:
      Indonesia, 74%
      Pakistan, 86% (and that's home to some high-profile crazies)
      Bangladesh, 81%.

      Do you see a problem in those numbers not being higher? Compare them to another nation in the survey.
      Guess Where, 46%

      Where is this place, where 54% think terrorism can be justified? Is it Iran? Saudi Arabia?

      http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0223/p09s01-coop.htm l

      There are 1.5 billion Muslims. If something about their religion caused people to blow themselves up in crowds we'd see far more of that particular crime.

    88. Re:Causes, not symptoms by Vexorian · · Score: 1

      The train attacks in Spain came from local sources.
      Show me your sources? Cause AFAIK the official version is that ETA was not related to march 11th bombings...
      --

      Copyright infringement is "piracy" in the same way DRM is "consumer rape"
    89. Re:Causes, not symptoms by servognome · · Score: 1

      I've never seen the flu shut down the New York Stock Exchange, or air travel coast-to-coast
      Look at the effect SARS had on travel and commerce in asia; a flu pandemic would be much worse than 9/11.

      We must fight the virus in the lab, so we don't have to fight them in our bodies!
      --
      D6 63 0D 70 89 81 BB 8E 7B 7C 5F 5D 54 EA AB 73
    90. Re:Causes, not symptoms by Ansoni-San · · Score: 1

      So at the end of the day, you're saying "We were on a break. We weren't going to enslave the entire country until we finish invading this other country we liked". Bad Muslims, stopping us before we got a chance. XP

    91. Re:Causes, not symptoms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not the op, but I'm saying yes. It's only when Americans are dying that America starts to pay attention. The U.S. has supported one of the largest, most well funded terrorist organizations in the world (the C.I.A.). If a few CIA-trained operatives decide to turn around and attack the people who unknowingly supported them in their bloodshed (U.S. civilians), the blame should fall on the trainers. Not the operatives. Gitmo for the CIA killers, not the "terrorist killers".

    92. Re:Causes, not symptoms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Howard is an idiot. :"Australia is a western nation. Nothing can, will or should alter that fact."

      Who the fuck is he to decide what Australia should be? He wants Australia to be white, Christian and allied to NATO countries. This is typically outrageous conservative crap.

    93. Re:Causes, not symptoms by servognome · · Score: 1

      Being threatened is not the same as being attacked. I'd be surprised to find out if there was a single country who has never been threatened by terrorists, and am also fairly certain that the majority of countries who have been threatened by Muslim fundamentalists have not been attacked.
      I'm not saying that the US doesn't have a big bullseye on it's chest for escalating violence in the middle east. But I am saying keeping a distance from the situation doesn't necessarily insulate you from possible terrorism.

      I'd be surprised to find out if there was a single country who has never been threatened by terrorists, and am also fairly certain that the majority of countries who have been threatened by Muslim fundamentalists have not been attacked.
      It's very difficult to confirm without a list. I would say there are many countries that have been attacked. Though, many attacks occur against places that are not secure (eg embassies & tourist locales in unstable regions).
      --
      D6 63 0D 70 89 81 BB 8E 7B 7C 5F 5D 54 EA AB 73
    94. Re:Causes, not symptoms by The+One+and+Only · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Besides, are you saying the U.S. deserved 9/11 and that Spain and England deserved the train bombings?

      There's a difference between facts and moral judgments. US, Spanish, and English involvement in the Middle East is a motivation behind those acts of terrorism. That's a fact. Whether or not they deserved to be bombed is a moral judgment that is partially informed by that fact. If these governments were in fact doing absolutely nothing and were bombed without any provocation, that would lead us to one moral judgment. On the other hand, if these governments were systematically destroying their civilization and they had no other way to respond, that would lead us to a very different moral judgment. The facts are as follows: the US, England, Spain, etc. made, were making, have made, and continue to make certain interventions in the Middle East. Al-Qaeda considered those interventions aggressive and decided to strike back. We can sit around all day analyzing what these interventions are and whether they justify the response, but that would make us historians. If we're worried about serving the interests of Americans, Britons, and Spaniards, we have to analyze which is greatest--the cost of continuing to intervene or the cost of not intervening. This is a cost-benefit analysis, and only works with facts, not moral judgments.

      As an analogy: if I'm pointing a gun at your face and telling you to give me your wallet, you don't really worry about whether or not the fact you killed my father justifies this. You just weigh the options available to you and do whatever satisfies the end you're trying to achieve (be it justice, your own self-preservation, etc.)

      --
      In Repressive Burma, it's not just your connection that dies. slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=314547&cid=20819199
    95. Re:Causes, not symptoms by The+One+and+Only · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You don't have to MELT steel to cause a building collapse. Just soften it enough so it won't support anything above it. The WTC was designed to take hits from smaller aircraft with smaller fuel loads, and was originally designed with asbestos to resist fires. Considering the mass of the WTC, it would take a lot more momentum to literally knock them over sideways. Falling more-or-less straight down is pretty much what the physics would predict--the Boeing 767 wasn't flown until 1981, years after the WTC was completed to say nothing of when it was designed.

      --
      In Repressive Burma, it's not just your connection that dies. slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=314547&cid=20819199
    96. Re:Causes, not symptoms by Eivind · · Score: 1
      True. For example, it's true there's been a handful of more or less credible threats against Norway, and it's perfectly possible that sooner or later we'll get an attack of some kind or other.

      However, it's *also* true that theres ~10million plane-rides in Norway every year, and that each and every one of those waste atleast a minute/passenger for largely pointless security-posturing. (No, I don't think we're very much safer from terrorism because I can no longer go with a tube of toothpaste in my hand-luggage)

      10 million times 1 minute is on the order of 115 *years*. Which adds up to the wake part of 2 human lifes. So, we're wasting 2 lifes/year on this particular measure alone. Add in the time wasted by those manning the security-checkpoints and we're up to wasting a dozen lifes a year, more or less. And that's before even *mentioning* the cost of it all.

    97. Re:Causes, not symptoms by Yvanhoe · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Uh ? What about France ? The only thing I can think of are the small riots at the end of last year (yeah I know that from US it was reported as a civil war, mind you, there were 2 persons killed in two weeks) that had no connections with terrorism or islamism. In fact, a lot of Muslim leaders made public declarations that a true Muslim shouldn't participate in those events.

      France has a pretty good image in the middle east nowadays, despite the fact that it also considers terrorism as one of its first security problem. But it tries to deal with it with respect to human rights.

      --
      The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
    98. Re:Causes, not symptoms by Sique · · Score: 4, Insightful

      First of all: Terrorists are a quite minor thread to your life. Don't feed the trolls, and don't cry about possible terrorist threads. Terrorism is effective because of the terror it causes, not because of the number of deads or the cost of repairing the damage. Every terrorist who causes a new security measure put in place or an old being reinforced knows he was effective beyond all dreams.

      Second of all: If we would wage war on every potential killer of yours, we would have to concentrate the forces first on you, then on your mother, then on your stepfather (if you have one), then your biological father. Those four persons are the most probable to take your life. They are responsible for about 50% of all homicides. (I am not sure, but I think either your husband/wife or your own children come next.)

      Third: There is no direct relation between cause and effect in terrorist attacks. The most recent attempt to a terrorist attack in Germany I know of was a man who planned to carbomb a bank. Not for political reasons, but because of bad service. What's next? Battle against the Customer?

      That's why I think the idea of an 100 percent protection against terrorist attacks is just silly. You never know what or who causes the urge to attack someone, and you can't foresee the method they will be trying. That's why there is the call for Common Sense. Eliminate the foreseeable threads by protecting infrastructure that causes much havoc if attacked and is a quite easy target.
      Don't try to thwart every single plot that has been discovered or can be thought of individually. We are back to the old problem: "Enumerating badness" is never complete and seldom a sensible way to deal with threads. Try to be secure by design, not by eliminating threads.

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    99. Re:Causes, not symptoms by Yvanhoe · · Score: 1

      People just don't decide to blow up themselves because 80 years ago your great grandfather slapped his great grandfather. It's almost always about a current situation. And in the case of islamic terrorism, it is almost always about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. But I would agree that Iraq war has given them new causes to enroll in a terrorist group.

      --
      The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
    100. Re:Causes, not symptoms by servognome · · Score: 1

      First of all: Terrorists are a quite minor thread to your life
      If you look at my previous post in the thread I stated that.

      Second of all: If we would wage war on every potential killer of yours, we would have to concentrate the forces first on you, then on your mother, then on your stepfather (if you have one), then your biological father. Those four persons are the most probable to take your life. They are responsible for about 50% of all homicides.
      Actually, homicide (by whoever) isn't even in the top 10 threats to my life. That's why we are waging a war on heart disease and a war on cancer. But as I previously stated, we should not stop there. We should extend our war effort to viruses!

      Third: There is no direct relation between cause and effect in terrorist attacks. The most recent attempt to a terrorist attack in Germany I know of was a man who planned to carbomb a bank. Not for political reasons, but because of bad service. What's next? Battle against the Customer?
      I think that's being done by outsourcing customer service :)
      Seriously, if you had read my first reply in the thread, I was pointing out that "just keeping your nose out of people's business" does not insulate you from the threat of terrorism.
      How we respond to the threat is a different deal; in that regard I agree with you, the US is overreacting with panic.
      --
      D6 63 0D 70 89 81 BB 8E 7B 7C 5F 5D 54 EA AB 73
    101. Re:Causes, not symptoms by Elrac · · Score: 1
      Your post is so stupid and so lame that it offends me to read it.

      1. Recruitment

      No, recruitment is not the primary goal. The primary goal of any political group - and that includes countless political groups posing as religious groups - is to gain power relative to other groups. There are two ways to accomplish this:
      1. Obviously, one way to gain power is to gain recruits and other resources. This could also involve merging with other, similarly aligned groups. Fund raising is certainly a vital activity here too.
      2. The other way, at least in a relative way, is to weaken the other groups. Reduce their numbers, or reduce their effectiveness, do whatever it takes to hurt them. Blow up their stuff or their people, or do a Swift Boat campaign on them. But remember, from a David vs. Goliath perspective, the most harm can usually be accomplished if you can get the other guys to hurt themselves.

      Get that into your head, and you've got world politics in a nutshell.

      9/11 was aimed at weakening the enemy (us) by putting the USA into a state of threshing around in chaos, as they are now. A resounding success, so far.

      The clumsily executed attacks that followed - the second of which was not even in response to 9/11 - then helped the terrorists massively with their other goal of gaining recruits and other resources.

      2. Keeping us vulnerable

      The War on Drugs has raised the prices - and profit margins - of drugs far beyond what the drug czars could have hoped to achieve without government assistance. Similarly, the War on Terror has disrupted the life and economy of the USA, i.e. weakened this political counter-group, far better than many activities of Al Quaeda & co. could hope to do. Given this, the Republicans and the DHS are playing into their hands, and it is in the best interests of those terrorist groups to keep them active. This is not about "vulnerable". Any country is always vulnerable against terrorism. This is about "weak and ineffective".

      3. Why 9/11

      I think I've adequately explained that. 9/11 was an activity aimed at "weakening". Members and supporters of terrorist groups expect their outfits to do this kind of thing, like the Boards of Directors and shareholders of a company expect that company to make a profit. So was it necessary? Sure.

      In terms of population and resources, it was comparable to a mosquito bite - annoying but harmless. In terms of the effect on the US, it was more like a major allergic reaction - the country is in a state of shock and threatening to fall into a coma. There's very little any terrorist organization could do to appreciably heighten that state from its current level. So it makes sense to concentrate on the other vital activity, human and material resources.

      4. Democrats = more attacks

      From the above, yeah, I believe that a saner, calmer USA would be a more eligible target for terrorist activity. Simply because the same amount of terrorist activity would have a more noticeable effect. On the other hand, a saner, calmer USA would not have as severe an allergic reaction as one run by the Republican administration, and thus the effect on US lives and living would not be as severe.
      --
      When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called Rel
    102. Re:Causes, not symptoms by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 2
      Oh yes, the good old "religion of peace" argument. Let's see: So you say that Christians had Inquisition and Crusades? Sure enough, but in this day and age, I - as a pagan - am much more comfortable with Western Christianity, which leaves me in peace, rather than Islam, for which I do not even belong to the "People of the Book" (since I'm not a monotheist), and as such, have no rights at all. Note how all the terms I've linked to actually have relevance in modern Islam. That is the problem. I do not think it is going to go away either, because, while the core of Christianity is small and also quite open to interpretation, and as such was much easier to adapt to the modern liberal age, Islam is much more dogmatic and all-encompasing religion. It is very hard to find a way around its inherent militance while remaining within its framework, which is why liberal Islam is so unpopular.
    103. Re:Causes, not symptoms by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Against WHO, God damn it?
      9/11 was clearly an act of war against the USA, and the western world in general.

      Now, "by whom" is a much trickier question.

    104. Re:Causes, not symptoms by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1, Insightful

      GP is right though, there are no other ways to completely solve the problem. Even if the Western world goes all isolationist and stops interfering into the business of other countries, radical Islam will still see the mere existence of non-Islamic countries as reason enough to wage war against such a perversion of nature.

    105. Re:Causes, not symptoms by Cuppa+'Joe'+Black · · Score: 1

      "maybe we'll get universal health care funding"

      I'd settle for global or even national, though I admire your ambition.

      --
      Technically, murder-suicide does not violate the golden rule.
    106. Re:Causes, not symptoms by rainer_d · · Score: 0, Troll

      > Is recruiting the main goal of a terrorist group?

      Bingo.
      Did it cross your mind that both the current administration and the terrorist groups profit most from the status quo?
      What would Bush Jr. be without the terrorist threat? He'd be only a footnote in history.
      Same with Mr. Bin-Laden et.al.
      They'd be just bumpkins in the nowhere.
      A similar situation exists in the Israel/Hamas conflict: hardliners on both sides make quite a good living with the status-quo. In a peaceful Israel-Palestine coexistence, hardcore-nationalists (on both sides) would have no place, to political agenda, no power and thus also no influence and no money.
      Guess how likely a political solution is going to be found with these people still in charge?
      Same with the Al Quaeda et.al: they will stay in "business" for as long as they can - which in this part of the world means _very_ long.
      Think decades.

      Either the international community finds a cheaper way to fight these people, or we'll be all bankrupt in a couple of years - based on the current spending-rate, you can do your own calculations as to when exactly this will be.

      cheers,
      Rainer

      --
      Windows 2000 - from the guys who brought us edlin
    107. Re:Causes, not symptoms by vbwyrde · · Score: 1

      There once was a person who had a nice house and a nice family. One day thugs showed up and bashed in through a back window and killed a child shouting that they did it because the nice people in the house left their garbage on the edge of sidewalk. Then a neighbor from across the street, terrified that the thugs might strike his house, insisted that "the only reason we have anything to fear from murderous thugs is because we put our garbage out. You can't fight an idea, but you can arrange things so that people don't have any motive to murder us." Other equally wise neighbors agreed, and so they started to keep their garbage in their living rooms instead. Not long after that the all of the nice people in the house were found beheaded in their basement, along with the people who lent aid and comfort to the enemy. When reporting this the liberal news media suggested that the cause of the violence was garbage and that the people of the neighborhood were dirty, and deserved what they got. Then the world blew up and that ended the story.

    108. Re:Causes, not symptoms by DudeTheMath · · Score: 2, Informative

      Your comment reminds me of a saying: "In England, two hundred miles is a long way; in the U.S., two hundred years is a long time." Europe and the Mideast have a long, long history of political interference. Shoot, here in the U.S., there are plenty of people who are still pissed about the Civil War a century and a half ago. The partitioning of the Ottoman Empire only eighty-five years ago was just another "last straw" in a long line of "last straws," and there have been more "straws" since. I'm not trying to excuse the behavior, merely to explain the deep feelings of oppression (correct or not) in the region.

      --
      You save only 59 seconds over 8 miles by going 75 instead of 65. Do you really have to pass that guy? Do the Math!
    109. Re:Causes, not symptoms by Dirtside · · Score: 1

      Your analogy is bullshit.

      Try this instead:

      There once was a person who had a nice house and a nice family. One day thugs showed up and bashed in through a back window and killed a child shouting that they did it because the nice people in the house left their garbage in the thugs' bedroom, followed the thugs around hassling them constantly, bullying all the employers in the city to only hire the thugs for below minimum wage (and no benefits), and had been doing so constantly for fifty years.

      The neigbor across the street looked and said, "That sucks, but what did you expect?"

      --
      "Destroy science and religion. Science would re-emerge exactly the same; but not religion." - Penn Jillette, paraphrased
    110. Re:Causes, not symptoms by Jtheletter · · Score: 1

      perhaps there should be some sort of war on virii declared

      I have already declared it, and you are now the next target. 'Virii' is NOT a word, and does not mean the plural of virus, it is an incorrect usage of that form of pluralization, and at best it would be spelled 'viri' and would mean 'men' in Latin.

      I am not a grammar nazi, I am a grammar freedom fighter! ;)

      --
      -- I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist. It's not my fault that life sucks so much. --
    111. Re:Causes, not symptoms by diablomonic · · Score: 1
      nope. you obviously never studied fire behaviour. look up things like adiabatic flame temperatures for different hydrocarbons (office plastics, kerosene (jet fuel), wood) its virtually the same. kerosene (jet fuel) doesnt burn hotter than wood, just quicker. Note that the adiabatic temp doesn't actually apply in this case since that temperature is in ideal stoichiometric conditions which were most definitely not present (so the fire was MUCH cooler than that), and that even with whatever flame temperature was present, it was the STEEL temperature we need to know (which officially according to sample testing and experiments didn't break 300 C) not flame/air temp.

      Let me give you an example of why the jet fuel was irrelevant except as a fire starter: there was, at an extremely generous estimate, 3 tonnes or so of fuel per floor which actually made it into the building to burn. Each floor had over 1000 tonnes of steel and concrete in it. Now imagine trying to heat up a 1 tonne block of steel and concrete with a few litres of kerosene to the point of seriously (*)weakening the steel/concrete....NOT GONNA HAPPEN

      (*)enough to overcome the huge safety margins built into this building.

      "We never needed an event like that in the past to do so....Why would we need it now?"

      wow , are you serious? you've never heard of pearl harbour, babies in incubators, luisitana(sp?), gulf of tonkin, WMD's, reichstag fire (germany) etc etc. If you think ANY of these events where as described in "official US histories" you've got some learning to do.

      --
      watch "the money masters" on google video
    112. Re:Causes, not symptoms by kabocox · · Score: 1

      20,000 people die each year from the flu, perhaps there should be some sort of war on virii declared - maybe we'll get universal health care funding :)

      A war on transmittable disease could lead to the worst police that you can think of all in the name of public health.

    113. Re:Causes, not symptoms by diablomonic · · Score: 1
      767 and 707 are identical for our intents and purposes. the 707 is slightly bigger, the 767 can carry slightly more fuel, the 707 has a higher cruising speed. overall, they are close enough to identical to ignore the differences.

      As to smaller fuel loads, this is a load of shit. the CONSTRUCTION MANAGER is recorded on video describing (pre-9/11 : he died on 9/11 rescuing people) how the towers were designed to take a hit from a "FULLY LOADED 707, which was the biggest plane at the time" (and is bigger than the 767). He goes on to say he believes they could take MULTIPLE hits due to the way they were designed, with the load just redistributing itself across the over-engineered structure.

      No where does he say "but when I say 'fully loaded', I really mean some magical plane that doesn't run on fuel so we didn't bother to take that into account"...

      As to not needing to melt just soften the building, I know that. theres two problems though:

      1) you'd need to get the steel in the buildings past about 800C or more, to have a chance in hell of overcoming the huge engineered safety factors. according to the official investigations, this did not happen, officially the hottest temperatures the steel reached was bout 300C. This is also backed up by common fire knowledge of temperatures involved (hey my families in the CFA) and by experiments undertaken to simulate similar conditions.

      2) in reality MANY witnesses speak of "rivulets of molten steel" "white hot molten steel" "looked like a foundry" etc etc. basically huge amounts of white hot molten metal in the wreckage and pre-collapse. This is UNEXPLAINABLE (and unexplained, actually, ignored) by the official conspiracy theory. so while there shouldn't have been any molten steel, and yes there didnt need to be for a collapse to occur, but... there WAS and until I get a good answer as to where it came from, my best guess is thermate or similar.

      --
      watch "the money masters" on google video
    114. Re:Causes, not symptoms by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
      "Shoot, here in the U.S., there are plenty of people who are still pissed about the Civil War a century and a half ago."

      I think you meant to say "The War of Northern Agression".

      :-)

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    115. Re:Causes, not symptoms by spun · · Score: 1

      As another poster has already pointed out, there is a difference between facts and moral judgements. I'm not claiming violence is ever justified. Trying to conflate the two is disengenous at best. People on the right do it all the time, though. Try to point out why something happened and they accuse you of siding with the enemy, as if any explanation beyond "They're EEEVIL and they hate our freedom" is an excuse.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    116. Re:Causes, not symptoms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      i doubt half of the people in islamic nations even know what norway is....once they do, you will be in a pickle

    117. Re:Causes, not symptoms by jo42 · · Score: 1

      and over 400,000 a year die from tobacco related causes. Why isn't war declared on the tobacco industry?

    118. Re:Causes, not symptoms by SirLanse · · Score: 0

      Killing EVERY moslem in the world would be far cheaper than killing every flu virus.
      What makes you more deserving of cradle to grave care than your great-grandparents?
      What makes you more deserving of cradle to grave care than your great-grandchildren?
      Because, if you get it, the country will be bankrupt before our descendants get here.
      Life is short, enjoy the show, and get out.

    119. Re:Causes, not symptoms by BK425 · · Score: 1

      Great, this thread was funny until I read this. I'd been assuming the originator was trying to be funny.

      http://www.google.com/search?q=norway+terror+murde r&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official &client=firefox-a

    120. Re:Causes, not symptoms by Viol8 · · Score: 1

      >Provisional IRA" bombings in Great Britain a few years back,

      The IRA had little to do with religion and everything to do with the british in ireland.

      As is usual in these situations religion was brought into the argument to give the terrorists a justifcation for their actions. Even then , it was one catholics against protestants , not against another religion.

    121. Re:Causes, not symptoms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      (You don't see terrorist bombings in Norway, because Norway isn't sticking their collective noses in other peoples' business.)

      Perhaps if the U.S. was similiar in size and gross domestic output it wouldn't be on terrorists radar either.

    122. Re:Causes, not symptoms by Sique · · Score: 1

      I wasn't intending a rebuttal, merely a supporting and clarificational posting. :) And I know the danger of falling victim to homicide is rather minimal. My beloved example is the rate of death because of choking on a fishbone (about 700 per year in Germany). That's about the same number of victims than homicide (about 900 per year). Because eating fish also poses other threads (for instance food poisoning), the salmon on your plate is about as dangerous to your life as your worst enemy.

      I was just trying to point out that calling a country "safe from terrorist attacks" is just misleading, because even if we could rule out certain types of terrorist attacks, there will be hundreds of other types that may be committed anyway. And the line between a terrorist attack and a criminal attack is blurry at best. If a mafia clan is killing someone from a neighboring mafia clan, this is a criminal act intended not only to remove a real or perceived thread to the own clan, but also a message intended at the other clan, thus also a terroristic attack.

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    123. Re:Causes, not symptoms by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      While you're right about the IRA being about British control over Ireland, one could reasonably argue the same thing about Muslim extremists. They believe that the U.S. exerts too much control over the governments of the Middle East. You can't really claim that their motives are dramatically different. In the Middle East, religion is just being used as a way to trick largely uneducated or undereducated people into blowing themselves up. If the Qur'an really taught that mass murder was good and holy, then you could say that it's really about religion... but it doesn't really teach that any more than the Bible teaches that we should kill all the homosexuals (see Leviticus). Read out of context, you can easily misinterpret anything.

      As for the Christian vs. Protestant fighting, those are different religions. The Catholics and Protestants do have different beliefs. Not radically different, mind you, but then neither are be beliefs of the various Muslim sects. That doesn't stop sectarian violence in Iraq.

      Second, I would argue that throughout history, religion was always brought in to give bad people justification for their actions. The Crusades were in large part about gathering riches and coalescing power; religion was an excuse. That's not saying that the early popes' reasons were necessarily evil, just that the people who carried it out committed horrible atrocities under the belief that they could do anything and their sins would be automatically forgiven. Suicide bombers and virgins waiting for them when they die, anyone?

      My point is that if you judge Muslims by the nutcases who blow people up, you should also judge Christians by the nutcases who blow people up, and contrary to the previous assertion, it has been going on throughout history in Christendom just like it has in the Muslim world. In both cases, it is caused by a bunch of very disturbed individuals who give their religions a bad name by committing atrocities in the Lord's name, and neither type of group represents the religion as a whole.

      Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    124. Re:Causes, not symptoms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So on my 180 round trip commute I would save approx 22.125 minutes a day, 110.6 minutes a week. 2 more hours a week more with my family? Fuck yeah I need to pass that car.

    125. Re:Causes, not symptoms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just my two cents but if we keeping curing diseases and other natural events, where are we going to put everybody? I mean to really put it in perspective what's 20,000 compared to 6.5 billion (https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/pri nt/xx.html)?

    126. Re:Causes, not symptoms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why do people think that "reparations" still need to be paid in the US?

    127. Re:Causes, not symptoms by The+One+and+Only · · Score: 1

      The 767 has a higher fuel capacity, and it's burning jet fuel, not the shock of the initial impact, which caused the collapse. Going by the shock of impact alone, the towers did a great job. As for your other two claims, I would have to see citations (or at least proof that you're some type of structural engineer and not just some sort of nutjob) to take them seriously.

      --
      In Repressive Burma, it's not just your connection that dies. slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=314547&cid=20819199
    128. Re:Causes, not symptoms by krotkruton · · Score: 1

      I hope you read the other posts in this thread bofore you commented on that. I was replying to a post that had little to do with the discussion, and was trying to give a few reasons why it isn't true. I wasn't saying that any of those things aren't possible or even probable, but I was saying that they aren't the only or the primary reasons, as the parent of my post seemed to indicate. I can see why you would think my post was stupid and offensive since you seemed to miss the point of it.

    129. Re:Causes, not symptoms by DudeTheMath · · Score: 1

      I think you meant to say "The War of Northern Agression".

      :-)

      Actually, I'm from Vuh-jen-yuh, and high school "U.S. & Virginia History" was starting to get away from "War Between the States" and just call it "Civil War". Something to do with helping us with the AP History exam, I think. :)

      --
      You save only 59 seconds over 8 miles by going 75 instead of 65. Do you really have to pass that guy? Do the Math!
    130. Re:Causes, not symptoms by krotkruton · · Score: 1

      Did it cross your mind that both the current administration and the terrorist groups profit most from the status quo?

      Yes it did, and then I filed it under conspiracy theory. Before anyone jumps down my throat for that, I'm not saying that those two groups don't necessarily benefit from the status quo, just that at least Bush wasn't jumping for joy on 9/11. Benefiting from an event and planing or hoping for it to take place are two different things. As with the other response to my post, I hope you read the whole thread because this is really beside the point.

    131. Re:Causes, not symptoms by vbwyrde · · Score: 1

      So your counter-analogy, which is really bullshit, is that its ok that they killed someone's kid because "they had it coming". Right. You realise of course that what you said makes no sense. But no. You don't. Whatever. Talk with a fool...

    132. Re:Causes, not symptoms by Dirtside · · Score: 1

      I never said it was okay. I said it was unsurprising. Yeah, you could get revenge by killing the thugs, but wouldn't it have been a better solution to NOT fuck with them for 50 years in the first place?

      Of course, at this point it's too late to undo the past, but once you get revenge on them, you can also stop dumping your garbage in other people's bedrooms in the future, which will reduce the future necessity to waste time, effort, and money on further revenge.

      --
      "Destroy science and religion. Science would re-emerge exactly the same; but not religion." - Penn Jillette, paraphrased
    133. Re:Causes, not symptoms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or maybe you don't see this in norway, because there aren't lots of muslim immigrants there.

    134. Re:Causes, not symptoms by vbwyrde · · Score: 1

      Right. With that I agree. I'm actually in favor doing the right thing, and not messing with other people, or stealing from them, or whatever it is that malicious people do. I'm in favor of America being a force for Good in this world. You bet. But I also have thought about what that means. I'll give you an example I was thinking about in the 1980's when I learned about the activities going on in Central America. I was very disturbed by the method used because it was sneaky, and I didn't like it for that reason. Instead of coming out in front and saying, "Listen up, Communists infiltrators, we're America and we're not going to mess around with you. If you come over here to stir up trouble and bring weapons and create chaos then we're going to engage you in no uncertain terms until you stop. That means war. And we're not kidding about it. We will come down there and stuff you down your throat, and you know we can do it. And we will. If you don't stop." I would have preferred that honest approach. But you have to realise the price we would have had to pay for that honesty. We would have had to risk war. Real war. Unlimited real war - until they capitulate. That war would have cost lives - or could have. The point is not that we would have fought a war - its that we would have to have really been willing to do so. If not then the threat would be empty - and they would have instead of backing down, invested more in infiltration, seeking to overthrow our way of life. We were responding to those who were sneaking up on us - as we must respond now. Had we not done anything then the threat would have grown. And as the Communists saw that we could be overcome, they would have tried to do so, if for no other reason than to eliminate us as a threat to them. However, they could not do so, and eventually we proved the stronger, for now. Communism, by the way, is not exactly dead, since there are many people who still believe that it is something other than the rule of the few over the many using economics as well as force, nor to they link successfully the deed of starving dozens of millions of people, nor take note that we in our country never contemplated doing anything even remotely like that. That we are, in fact, the Good Guys, AND that there are a whole bunch of people out there who are actually really pretty damn evil. Its a tough nut to crack. How DO you deal with that? Like our involvement in the middle east. It's been tortured to say the least. But why? Well, my take on it is that we did a lot of things to try to save Israel, our ally, from the menace that ever threatens her. From before the creation of Israel, during the 1930's, Arafat's father was the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem. He instructed the Germans on his already developed techniques of Judeocide, which he was perfecting in Israel on Jews who lived there as part of the community since time immemorial. Well that menace has not vanished. The only thing that has happenned is that the Jews founded their state right in the heart of the enemy who was trying to destroy them. It was a divine justice and the Jews decided to stop being kicked in the face any more and decided to found their own state after WWII was over. The UN was for it. Everyone was for it. Except the Arabs who hated the Jews. And so on the first day of the state of Israel the Arabs tried to smash the tiny newborn state. But they failed. And the Jews, like the warriors of the ancient days, drove back their Arab brothers. Yet again and again the Arabs tried to push Israel into the sea. But she would not budge. Now the Arabs, having been truly humiliated by their own arrogance, pride, and insatiable anger, and the might of their own sibling people, are again, working toward the destruction of Israel. So what does the United States do, with its revolving door leadership? Play it's hand as best it can each Administration, with changing goals and priorities, and not as some sort of giant one minded Nation, but as a plurality and constantly shifting dialectic.

    135. Re:Causes, not symptoms by diablomonic · · Score: 1
      WRONG:

      767 - 63,000 litres http://www.boeing.com/commercial/airports/acaps/76 7sec2.pdf

      707: depending on model, according to this http://www.boeing.com/commercial/airports/acaps/70 7sec2.pdf, up to 90,000 litres (smallest 65,000)

      It always amazes me just how little research (took literally 10 seconds of googleing) skeptics on this issue do before shooting their mouths off. Hell you could even just bother to read the official reports from the government agencies you trust so much, which will TELL you that the fuel did NOT cause the collapse, since they say it burned out in minutes (therefore the steel should have long cooled down and regained most of its strength, had this actually been a major factor in the collapses, by the time of the collapse).

      As to the structural engineer comment, you can stick that up your arse along with the peanuts you use for a brain, since you dont need to be a structural engineer to have done uni physics/chem and have common sense.(how bout you look up some info for yourself instead of trusting the very people many CT "nutjobs" tell you are fooling you to give you correct info. Try youtube for one, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XL4isaZRapY, and note he says "FULLY LOADED, not empty of fuel and running on fairy floss"

      finally, if you think this post is a bit harsh, it probably is, I'm just really sick of people calling other people nutjobs when they cant even be bothered doing 10 seconds of googleing to verify their "information"

      --
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    136. Re:Causes, not symptoms by The+One+and+Only · · Score: 1

      Thinking that the government covertly planted explosives inside the World Trade Center, only to hijack aircraft (employing primarily Saudi nationals to do so) and run them into the towers for theatrical purposes, simply to create a sort of Reichstag fire doesn't even have the minimal amount of logic necessary to make a believable story. The federal government does evil things, sure, but they don't come up with fiendish plans worthy of Lex Luthor.

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    137. Re:Causes, not symptoms by diablomonic · · Score: 1
      once you see that the official story is utterly false, there is no other conclusion to draw but that at least elements of the government and media are acting to deceive us. This was not an official federal government act, its not like it passed through congress or something, this was an act by people with high level government and other connections, most likely (but not certainly) involving bush and cohorts (especially bush senior), and carried out entirely through non official channels. It's very hard to explain here the long process of awakening from your brainwashing, but I'll try. First you see holes in the stories, then you see things you realize are not possible and pages after pages of impossible coincidences and situations, then you realize that there are other stories with holes in them, and then you start reading stuff that not long before you would have though was crazy tin hat wearing stuff, but you realize it was just that you had been brainwashed into a world view that encouraged this, and that often times (not always, there ARE some crazies of course, although I'd be hesitant to identify any single persona as one) that what you once thought were crazy stories now makes more sense than the official ones.

      "simply to create a sort of Reich stag fire"... simply? the benefits (to the organizers) here were immense. I'm talking many billions, possibly trillions in profits, huge political (polls), legal (patriot act) and "carte blanche" (Afghanistan, iraq, iran to come, illegal wiretaps, torture, all the other shit they've got away with since 9/11, etc etc) benefits, not to mention the continuation of their main plan: the creation of a world government in their control. But... I DO realise how that (the sentence I just wrote) can sound crazy to the "uninitiated".

      Thing is this: once you start looking into this properly, you (well at least this is what happened for me) start off very skeptical, then you see some things that make you go "hmmmm...thats very strange", and pretty soon you see things that make you go "hey, wait a minute, thats not really possible". Once you get to this point of realizing there are massive holes in the official theory, you start seeing the holes in plenty of other "official theories" (jfk, okc bombing, north woods, original wtc bombing, waco, pearl harbour, federal reserve, WWII, Vietnam, desert storm,plenty more) and you begin realizing that everything you have been shown by the media is a bunch of filtered propagandized bullshit. this is a very "clarifying" yet frightening moment, as it lets you step back from story and not just assume a theory is crazy because you haven't heard it before or some source you trust or show or news story said it was crazy, rather research the details yourself thoroughly if/while it pans out. When you do this, you again start realizing just how much shit you've been fed. At this stage, simply blowing up the towers doesn't seem far fetched anymore, it actually seems like the logical progression in these maniacs plans (after okc, orig. wtc bombing etc).

      "only to hijack aircraft (employing primarily Saudi nationals to do so) " well I'm doubtful of the true involvement of the so called hijackers, given that the list of names was just spewed forth almost immediately, with no reasoning or proof given, and that many of the people are possibly/probably still alive (therefore obviously not involved). While I'm still not sure of too many details (thats pretty hard with the dis info shit storm going on), after much research I do believe those planes were: 1) almost certainly radio controlled, eliminating the necessity of hijackers (but still not ruling them out as patsies for appearance purposes), 2) at least some of them were most likely not the claimed flights (ie replacement drones), again ruling out the necessity for hijackers. As to why Saudi nationals, IF they were involved, well, why the F not? its well known that Saudi money goes to funding terrorism, yet the ties between Saud and the US (especially between bin laden's

      --
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    138. Re:Causes, not symptoms by The+One+and+Only · · Score: 1

      There's a difference between knowing the truth and being a paranoid schizophrenic. You have no idea what I know and what I believe and how much it conflicts with the mainstream. But have you ever wondered how that many explosives could be set inside the WTC, with no one the wiser? How radio control systems could be installed in commercial aircraft, with no witnesses coming forth to say anything? Study history. Even the Reichstag fire wasn't necessarily set by the Nazis.

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    139. Re:Causes, not symptoms by diablomonic · · Score: 1
      this may be a long post, but it has to be to answer your questions:

      re reichstag: I'm aware of that (but definitely not knowledgeable enough on that one to say who I think really planned/set it with certainty)

      re what you believe: true, perhaps I shouldn't assume so much, however your responses, (including ones with wrong information) were a little telling...

      re witnesses: there are MANY. ask yourself why firefighters and emergency workers are under gag orders? read the testimonies given by the firefighters which are only in the public after a long delayed response to a foi request (again why?) which describe flash flash flash like a controlled demolition, bombs, explosions, charge sequences etc etc. they are fairly explicit. actually research it and you'll find hundreds of people, including many high level people (even some ex bush administration people) stating it was an inside job or disputing key points of the official theories. To say there are no whistle blowers is to prove you have not done enough research, there are hundreds if not thousands. They just get ignored by the media, and usually fired or punished in some other way.

      On top of this, it is highly likely in my opinion that many key witnesses (most of whom where unlikely to know what they were working on until too late due to compartmentalization) were killed on the day of 9/11. An example of this is the "passengers" on the "pentagon plane". I'm still unsure that there was a plane, and if there was, I'm unsure that it was the plane we are told it was, but either way, it is very likely those listed on board are dead. The reason I say this is because of who they are: many were military or military contractor people, working at places such as Raytheon and Boeing, on things like remote controlling planes and so forth, most likely unaware of what the intended use of their work was (although they probably would have worked it out afterwards). Another example of a likely whistle blower who died that day is John O'Neill, I'll let you look up who he was and how he died. Pay attention to who got him his last job, who found and identified him and what he was doing at the time of death.

      re planting explosives: are you aware the company running security for the WTC was stratasec/securacom, link (contract expired ON THE DAY of 9/11 according to some sources) who also ran security for both one of the airlines involved in 9/11 (united) and one of the airports involved (dulles). And who was on the board at this company? the president's BROTHER Marvin. Now if anyone honestly believes thats just a list of complete coincidences, and there is nothing suspicious about it at all... well I wont finish that sentence except to say dont go betting on any horses, I dont think you understand odds.

      So let's posit the possibility that the Bush family was involved (a high likelyhood if there was an inside job). This would give them 1) some control and much influence over all federal agencies and military groups through the Pres. and ex Pres., which would make a lot of things much easier. 2) Inside access to at least one airport, 2 planes and ALL WTC buildings involved. of course it also helped them greatly in the coverup, with bush all but completely blocking a real investigation (which still has not occurred, lookup The "9/11 Omission Commission"), and more relevantly, It gave them unrestricted access to the twin towers, as long as they could disguise what they were doing to the occupants.

      Now here comes something a lot of "skeptics" don't seem to get: We DON'T know exactly what they used to demolish those towers. while it is beneficial to be able to come up with a likely scenario for the purposes of convincing skeptics, really, as long as you know the official theory for how they collapsed is impossible, the only alternative we have that fits the data is that they were demolished with some sort of explosive devices. This could be as conventional as

      --
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    140. Re:Causes, not symptoms by stupid_is · · Score: 1

      according to certain sources, all/most commercial aircraft in the US had/have a system installed which allows the government to control a plane from the ground through a backdoor in the autopilot system

      No showstopper? Can you cite references to this back-door into the autopilot system? I could see where a nasty individual on the plane could maybe program some GPS waypoints into the autopilot that takes them to downtown Manhattan, but injection of this from the ground? And without the pilot being able to do anything about it?

      That leaves the "replacement planes" theory... Where are all the people that were on those flights? Surely this theory would dictate that the flights were switched and the passengers were spirited away somewhere and disappeared?

      --
      -- Intelligence is soluble in alcohol
    141. Re:Causes, not symptoms by The+One+and+Only · · Score: 1

      I'm not talking about firefighters and emergency workers. (Please cite a source for this supposed gag order, though.) I'm talking about the people who worked in the WTC every day. Why is it that none of them noticed anything that would lead us to think charges were planted inside the WTC? This theory also neglects to inform us why they bothered with the Pentagon and with the fourth plane.

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    142. Re:Causes, not symptoms by diablomonic · · Score: 1

      apart from the fact that they DID (the reason we know there was a powerdown is because a worker claimed the building was powered down over the weekend to allow "engineers" to install "network cabling" throughout the building, a process that for some reason entailed turning the power (and therefore security cameras) off: a risky expensive proposition given the number of data servers etc in the building, and he afterwards thought this was suspicious and linked to the attacks), most of them DIED IN the incident, and pretty much the only ones left to see anything would be those that worked on the monday, escaped from the building on the tuesday (meaning they were likely in the lower levels) and yet saw the rigging in the higher levels (working from the likely assumption that the majority of the charges went in the lower basement and up in the levels near the crash sites and higher. I also think the charges were hidden where possible, and disguised everywhere else, meaning most people wouldn't have noticed them. This was not a normal CD, precise placement was not required, by using overkill (see pulverised building) they could get away with less suspicious placement and disguising of explosives (my personal opinion is thermobarics, which create huge overpressures yet could be placed centrally and therefore should have been easy to disguise.

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    143. Re:Causes, not symptoms by diablomonic · · Score: 1

      I'm trying to chase up a source for the back door program, if I remember rightly it was revealed by a German intelligence minister, who said Lufthansa stripped the system out of their jets and developed their own (at great cost) to avoid being susceptible to US control. Either way, it was not what I would consider a definite fact, although it did sound plausible to me. As to the "injection from the ground" my thoughts is it would be injection on the ground, ie BEFORE takeoff, likely days or weeks earlier, since the security company stratasec at dulles was most likely in on it. this was not a spur of the moment thing, I've seen things indicating possible planning of this event many years before.

      --
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    144. Re:Causes, not symptoms by diablomonic · · Score: 1
      ah it seems the claim was made by an aeronautical engineer "joe vialls", and repeated and extended by Andreas von Buelow, a former German minister of research and technology. see below, quoted from here

      Joe Vialls' "back door" theory

      According to an aeronautical engineer named Joe Vialls, the technology to capture planes via remote control has been around for a very long time. If he is correct, the US military developed the technology as far back as the mid 1970s---in response to a sharp upsurge in terrorist hijackings during this period. According to Vialls the project involved two American multinationals in collaboration with the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA). The goal was to facilitate the remote recovery of hijacked American aircraft. Vialls claimed the effort succeeded brilliantly in developing the means, first, to listen in on cockpit conversations in a target aircraft; and, second, to take absolute control of the plane's computerized flight control system by means of a remote channel. The aim was to cut the hijackers out of the control loop, meanwhile, empowering ground controllers to return a hijacked plane to a chosen airport, where police would deal with the terrorists. To be "truly effective," however, the new technology "had to be completely integrated with all onboard systems." This could only be achieved by incorporating the system into a new aircraft design. Vialls charged this is exactly what happened. A high-level decision was made and Boeing very quietly included a "back door" into the computer designs for two new commercial planes then on the drawing boards: the 767 and 757. Both planes went into production in the early 1980s.

      Vialls shocked even internet users when he posted all of this on his web site in October 2001.[ix] He contended that the system, although designed for the best of intentions, fell prey to a security leak. Somehow the secret computer codes fell into the hands of evildoers within the Bush administration, who surreptitiously used the remote channel on 9/11. Armed with the secret codes---Vialls charged---the conspirators activated the hidden channel built into the transponders and simply took over the flight controls. Whether or not the alleged nineteen hijackers were actually on board was uncertain. But the issue clearly was of secondary importance since fanatical Muslims were not flying the planes.

      Crucially, on 9/11, not one of the eight commercial pilots and copilots sent the standard signal alerting FAA authorities that a hijacking was in progress.[x] Sending this signal, or "squawking," as it is called, takes only a few seconds, and is done by activating a cockpit device known as an ELT (emergency locator transmitter). A pilot simply keys-in a four-digit code and the message "I have been hijacked" flashes on the screen at ground control. The fact that none of the pilots or copilots transmitted this standard SOS on 9/11 was suspicious, the first indication to Vialls that the planes were being flown by remote means. Vialls concluded that once the evildoers had commandeered the transponders the pilots lost the ability to transmit. Additional evidence turned up in a video of the last seconds of Flight 175. According to Vialls, the footage is anomalous because it shows the plane executing a maneuver during its final approach that exceeds the normal software limitations of a 767. Boeing jets are designed with liability concerns in mind, as well as passenger safety. Flight control software prevents a pilot from making steep turns that pull substantial "g" forces. Such turns run the risk of injuring passengers, especially the aged and infirm, which could result in costly lawsuits. Since a pilot cannot normally make such a maneuver, this was powerful evidence that the plane was under remote control.

      The Crit

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    145. Re:Causes, not symptoms by The+One+and+Only · · Score: 1

      The population of the WTC was 50,000. Around 3,000 actually died.

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    146. Re:Causes, not symptoms by gurps_npc · · Score: 1
      I don't deny that Democrats bailed on the fascist pigs. That is not objectionable, it sometimes is laudable, if not always the best political decision.

      What is objectionable is making friends with them in the first place. Americans need to admit that hey, the Republicans sometimes pick the wrong people to be friends with and we should NOT let them forget about their past 'mistakes'.

      --
      excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
    147. Re:Causes, not symptoms by gurps_npc · · Score: 1
      I am not against political/societal interference, that is your cross to bear. I think sometimes it is appropriate. If we had done it earlier during WWII, a lot of innocent jews, gypsies, homosexual, and communist civilians would have lived instead of veing burned in gas ovens. We might even have saved quite a few French, Belgium, Russian, Dutch and Polish lives by stopping Hitler cold. No, it is not always appropriate, but sometimes it is.

      My point is that what the Republicans did, was NEVER appropriate. It was incredibally stupid, thinking "I can help these horrible, evil men, just because we currently have a common enemey."

      --
      excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
  2. I gotta blame by $RANDOMLUSER · · Score: 4, Insightful

    the media for this CYA security. Every time A Bad Thing(tm) happens, the media (TV) is all about "How can we prevent this from ever ever ever happening again?". Nothing is ever a fluke, every time something goes titsup, we have to take action, dammit!

    --
    No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism. - Winston Churchill
    1. Re:I gotta blame by Thunderstruck · · Score: 3, Funny

      Sounds right to me. Now how can we prevent the media from doing this ever, ever, ever, again?

      --
      Trying to use sarcasm in text-based forums does not work.
    2. Re:I gotta blame by AeroIllini · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The true test of a stable society is when a tragedy occurs and no laws are changed.

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    3. Re:I gotta blame by tkw954 · · Score: 1

      Right on.

  3. Homeland Security by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful
    wouldn't 'Commonsense Homeland Security' be a winning political banner, not a risky one?


    Homeland Security is not about security. It is about using the public's tax money to enrich your friends and business partners. And politics are determined by the players not by the voters (as much as we'd all like to believe otherwise).

  4. How To Stop Terrorism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

    Terrorism isn't the product of random deranged individuals; it is bankrolled by foreign governments. Saddam Hussein, for example, used to pay $30,000 to the family of each Palestinian suicide bomber. For another example, the governments of many countries, including Palestine, Iran, and Saudi Arabia, teach lessons that extol terror in their government-funded schools. The only way to be secure against terror is to destroy it at its roots -- and that means seriously debilitating the governments that are paying for it.

    If this is done, random individuals may still carry out terror, but such random terror will be much less well organized and much less of a threat.

    1. Re:How To Stop Terrorism by CRCulver · · Score: 1

      Terrorism isn't the product of random deranged individuals; it is bankrolled by foreign governments.

      Attacks in Europe have generally been planned by disgruntled individuals without any government support but with a few friends around them just as meaninglessly disgruntled as them.

      The only way to be secure against terror is to destroy it at its roots -- and that means seriously debilitating the governments that are paying for it.

      Many of these individuals are from fairly moderate states like Morocco, born in the EU, or even foreign converts. I don't think pulling down Saudi Arabia or Iran's governments (though still a good idea) would be a panacea.

    2. Re:How To Stop Terrorism by Lithdren · · Score: 1

      How To Stop Terrorism

      Redefine the meaning of stop?
    3. Re:How To Stop Terrorism by UnknownSoldier · · Score: 2, Insightful

      > The only way to be secure against terror is to destroy it at its roots -- and that means seriously debilitating the governments that are paying for it.

      Yeah, just like the war on drugs... oh wait.

      Some problems can't be solved just by throwing enough money at them.

      How do you teach an intolerant person tolerance?

      --
      How do you win a "war on terror" when you're the one creating it??

    4. Re:How To Stop Terrorism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Probably easier to redefine the meaning of terrorism.

    5. Re:How To Stop Terrorism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      how do you stop terror, you start by not financing and training the terrorists. like Bin Laden, who do you think financed and trained him ?? and give him weapons, and trained him and his army how to use those weapons ??

      the USA thats who, so if your going to train them up, and use them to fight off the russians in the bulkans, when you are finished with them, dont just "forget" about them, and leave them to their own devices, otherwise the dog you trained will most probably come back to bite you.

      so you can think your US government, your CIA and Secret service boys, for the problems you have. also before the US got into IRAQ, there was no known connection to terrism and Iraq, the terrism was from pakistan and from Bin Laden, Bin Laden and Husan did not have the same idoligies and there is no recored of them ever meeting each other.
      US only went into IRAQ because of OIL and money, and because it was easier than going after Bin Laden. still is.

    6. Re:How To Stop Terrorism by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      How do you teach an intolerant person tolerance?


            With a bullet. But then what does that make you?

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    7. Re:How To Stop Terrorism by Max+Littlemore · · Score: 1

      Attacks in Europe have generally been planned by disgruntled individuals without any government support but with a few friends around them just as meaninglessly disgruntled as them.

      That's a good point. A lot of these terrorist groups are funded by foreign governments. Most of these governments have been colonised and abused over their histories, used as pawns the cold war and earlier conflicts. It's not surprising then that they are sympathetic to terrorist causes.

      It's also worth noting that the US has funded terrorist groups, called "freedom fighters" if you're on their side, in conflicts when it has suited the ambitions or ideology of the US administration of the time. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, and for clarity I'm definitely referring to the current US administration as "the goose".

      The only way to be secure against terror is to destroy it at its roots -- and that means seriously debilitating the governments that are paying for it.

      Destroying the source of funding for those groups is near impossible and it fails to destroy the ideology that is the true root of terrorism, and if anything it reinforces it. To destroy the real root of the problem in a physical and partisan sense would effectively be genocide because it involves killing the belief in an idea.

      In the first part of the 20th century the major terrorist ideology was zionism. What happened to the nation that used the genocide option? It wasn't fatal, but I'm sure that if they really thought it through, even the hardest line neo-cons wouldn't want that to happen to their country.

      To follow the example of Christ on this issue is a far more potent method. Offer love. Make an attempt to understand the root of the problem from the others perspective and take steps to end the suffering. Treating this as a war that must be met with force creates a target and you gives violence a focus. Treating it as a wound that must be healed removes the cause and the desire of these people to blow themselves and others up.

      Sorry, I didn't mean to sound all hippy trippy there, and it is important to remember compassion can be hard, as long as compassion is the true basis of action.

      How can GWB possibly hold any delusion that he is Christian for fucks sake!?!

      --
      I don't therefore I'm not.
    8. Re:How To Stop Terrorism by Fatchap · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The only way to be secure against terror is to destroy it at its roots -- and that means seriously debilitating the governments that are paying for it. Since the US government were the backers of the Taliban and their far right fundamentalist Muslim freedom fighters in their war of terror against the invading Soviet army in Afghanistan does that not mean that the Pope would have an excuse for declaring a crusade against the US?

      --
      The only reason some people get lost in thought is because it's unfamiliar territory.
    9. Re:How To Stop Terrorism by Fatchap · · Score: 1

      Dons Flameproof suit and lights blue touch paper
      Since the US is essentially funding a terrorist state in Israel does your thinking not excuse all of Bin Laden and Al Qaeda's work so far?
      Walks away whistling

      --
      The only reason some people get lost in thought is because it's unfamiliar territory.
    10. Re:How To Stop Terrorism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Intolerant of intolerance.

    11. Re:How To Stop Terrorism by glittalogik · · Score: 1

      Mission Astoplished!

    12. Re:How To Stop Terrorism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ahem!

      Timothy McVeigh? Unabomber? Patty Hearst?

      Now, of course, if you define "terrorism" as "acts of terror performed by foreigners", you'll find, if dig enough, that *all* of them got funding from some islamist. Might be their mom, or an aunt that paid for a ticket to the US, a charity building wells in somalia that asked them to send new seals. It might even be *saddam*!

      Terrorism is *not* a threat to the US.

      The *only* point in trying to minimize the impact of a terrorist action in the US (which is not what the power that be are trying to do anyway) is that the sissies here want to know that danger is "out there", not in reckless drivers or lack of exercise "in here".

    13. Re:How To Stop Terrorism by archivis · · Score: 1

      Short a bullet.

      --
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    14. Re:How To Stop Terrorism by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      A survivor (as opposed to those who try to preach to the intolerant - it usually makes them dead men in the end).

    15. Re:How To Stop Terrorism by solaraddict · · Score: 1

      Terrorism isn't the product of random deranged individuals; it is bankrolled by foreign governments. Saddam Hussein, for example...[etc.]
      True, assuming "foreign governments" include the U.S. of A. You see, somebody (hint hint) funded Saddam Hussein, for example. Just check your 20th-century-history textbook.
    16. Re:How To Stop Terrorism by vocoindubium · · Score: 1

      I found Anonymous 18115096s description of the root of terrorism somewhat less than enlightened. I was wondering if Anonymous 18115096 really considers that the majority of the acts of organized terrorism are only those violent acts bankrolled by foreign governments? If this is truly the case I then wonder how the Anonymous would feel if (he or she or them) lived somewhere else in the world such as one of the countries where the U.S. or its allies had funded and supplied individuals that in turn commit acts of violence within that country? I think the real issue is the biased way many individuals choose determine what terrorism is. In my opinion it seems that an enlightened individual would have to realize that terrorism is any act that attempts to control or manipulate others under treat of dire consequences (i.e. causing terror) or any act executed with intent, which results in dire consequences. Now based on Anonymous 18115096s statement this would also include any government that funds anyone who commit these acts. This is a very large group of governments that includes the U.S. and most of its allies. I would like to suggest that it is unlikely that terrorism will ever cease to exist however the closed minded thinking of Anonymous 18115096 will definitely not provide an answer. One last thought since Anonymous 18115096 wants to debilitate the governments paying for these act I would like to suggest that unless Anonymous 18115096 wants to debilitate (his or her or their) government, (he or she or they) come up with a better solution.

  5. It is a no-win situation by El+Cubano · · Score: 5, Insightful

    But shouldn't we at least try to figure out a better way? For example, wouldn't 'Commonsense Homeland Security' be a winning political banner, not a risky one?

    Scenario 1:

    1. $PRESIDENT and $EXECUTIVE_BRANCH_POLITICIANS say "this is overblown, go back about your normal business"
    2. Terrorist attack happens
    3. People howl that $PRESIDENT and $EXECUTIVE_BRANCH_POLITICIANS did nothing when they had the chance

    Scenario 2:

    1. $PRESIDENT and $EXECUTIVE_BRANCH_POLITICIANS do everything that they can to prevent anything even resembling a terrorist attack
    2. No terrorist attacks happen for a short time
    3. People howl that $PRESIDENT and $EXECUTIVE_BRANCH_POLITICIANS only want to take away people's rights and institute facism

    With options like that, it doesn't matter what they do, as they are always going to be wrong.

    1. Re:It is a no-win situation by OMRebel · · Score: 1

      Great post. I'd mod you up if I could. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

    2. Re:It is a no-win situation by truthsearch · · Score: 1

      My $PRESIDENT variable isn't set to what I think it's supposed to be set to. Can someone please debug that? Or do we need a hard reboot?

    3. Re:It is a no-win situation by MidVicious · · Score: 2, Insightful

      $PRESIDENT and $EXECUTIVE_BRANCH_POLITICIANS do everything that they can to prevent anything even resembling a terrorist attack

      Does that include duct tape on the windows and the banning of liquids on all non-private airlines? (God forbid if a terrorist has a enough money to charter private flights).

      When your 'do everything they can' scenario actually happens as a viable and logical solution, maybe then your 'do everything they can' scenario will make sense. Or possibly be proven invalid.

    4. Re:It is a no-win situation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Indeed. The danger behind common sense laws is the lack of the everyman's ability view the entire situation.

      It sounds reasonable that tighter monitoring on muslims in the US would offer better protection against Muslim terrorists, but that completely disregards any expectations or rights that may be guaranteed to all citizens.

      How many Japanese-Americans did we lock up up during World War II?

    5. Re:It is a no-win situation by MazzThePianoman · · Score: 2

      The whole idea of homeland security doesn't matter much really. No matter how many troops you have, no matter how many cameras are put up, somebody can strike anyplace at anytime. The main tool of 9/11 was information and box cutters. Some kids in Columbine had a lot more at their disposal. Think about it. Instead of actively aggravating the problem beyond the use of covert means, and giving up rights for anti-productive policies people need to accept that terrorism happens and that we need to live with it. Trillions of dollars can not protect every school, every home, every US Citizen. I am not saying give up. But the result of 9/11 is more disruption to our rights and way of life than before. Maybe in that way we are losing? If saving human life was the real goal then instead spend the money on the means of cleanup and use the extra toward things like ending world hunger etc.

      --
      "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" Franklin
    6. Re:It is a no-win situation by SkriptoR · · Score: 1

      Isn't that the purpose of our foreign intelligence, so that the politicians don't have to act at one extreme or the other? At least when they do, they should have at least a slight bit of information regarding WHY they think the need to be warning the public or calming them.

    7. Re:It is a no-win situation by curunir · · Score: 1

      There's a third option. Spend time actually investigating the feasibility of and likelyhood of certain attacks, including types of attacks that have not yet happened.

      In that scenario, you come up with answers like yes, it makes sense to lock the cockpit doors. This prevents the plane from being hijacked and used as a missile. There's also very few implications of this policy, beyond creating and minor inconvenience for pilots. But you also come up with conclusions like attempting to blow up an airplane using liquids is extremely unlikely even when the terrorist is an experienced chemist with access to the necessary chemicals. You balance that against not allowing people to bring water onto an airplane, something that leads to dehydration which can, in turn, cause people to become ill and miss work. All effort possible should be expended to quantify the risk being prevented and the sacrifice being made to prevent that risk. Then you can weigh the cost against the benefits beforing implementing new security features.

      You'd also want to, as I alluded to earlier, have government agencies (FBI, DHS, etc) be actively trying to think like terrorists. Try to get suspicious packages into places where they shouldn't be without having them checked out first. Analyze our infrastructure to determine the most likely places terrorists might target.

      In short if you approach the problem from an analytical and rationed point of view, you'll have a better chance of striking a good balance between inconvenience, privacy and safety. But if you mindlessly over-react to either terrorist attacks or the ACLU-ites arguing that too many freedoms are being lost, you're bound to fail, as you've noted.

      --
      "Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos!"
    8. Re:It is a no-win situation by Deagol · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but if all the three-letter agencies spent time doing the useful stuff which you describe, it would put a damper on them jailing so many their own people for victimless crimes (War on Drugs, etc.). If common sense and restraint were part of the government's MO, there's be a lot less of it, and we all know how likely *that* is to happen.

    9. Re:It is a no-win situation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Must be an error in the seat to keyboard interface.

    10. Re:It is a no-win situation by Jarn_Firebrand · · Score: 1, Informative

      Um, no. How this got modded Insightful is beyond me. First of all, Scenario #1 is unlikely. Scenario #2 is probably going to be the scenario we have. Then there are scenarios #3, #4, and #5. By far the most likely ones are the ones in which "no terrorist attack happens", fyi. So, #2 and #3.

      Scenario #3:
      1. $PRESIDENT and $EXECUTIVE_BRANCH_POLITICIANS say "this is overblown, go back about your normal business"
      2. No terrorist attacks happen.
      3. People cheer that $PRESIDENT and $EXECUTIVE_BRANCH_POLITICIANS made the correct choice.

      Scenario #4:
      1. $PRESIDENT and $EXECUTIVE_BRANCH_POLITICIANS do everything that they can to prevent anything even resembling a terrorist attack
      2. Terrorist attack happens, but is foiled.
      3. People cheer that $PRESIDENT and $EXECUTIVE_BRANCH_POLITICIANS made the correct choice.

      Scenario #5:
      1. $PRESIDENT and $EXECUTIVE_BRANCH_POLITICIANS do everything that they can to prevent anything even resembling a terrorist attack
      2. Terrorist attack happens anyway.
      3. People howl that $PRESIDENT and $EXECUTIVE_BRANCH_POLITICIANS did nothing when they had the chance.

      It seems you conveniently left out the ones where the administration makes the CORRECT choice. Perhaps you want to make the current administration seem better by claiming no matter people will be mad? Sorry, but you failed. Natalie Portman and hot grits.

    11. Re:It is a no-win situation by treeves · · Score: 1
      I think in #4 you meant "2. Terrorist attack is foiled."

      It cannot simulataneously happen and be foiled.

      In any case, isn't what has really happened more like this?:

      Scenario #4

      1. $PRESIDENT and $EXECUTIVE_BRANCH_POLITICIANS do everything that they can given the political and budget constraints to prevent anything even resembling a terrorist attack.

      2. Terrorist attack happens, but is foiled.

      3. People ignore the foiled terrorism or don't even hear about it and $PRESIDENT and $EXECUTIVE_BRANCH_POLITICIANS still get blamed for spending and doing ineffective counter-measures.

      --
      ...the future crusty old bastards are already drinking the Kool-Aid.
    12. Re:It is a no-win situation by westlake · · Score: 1
      God forbid if a terrorist has a enough money to charter private flights

      Have you priced a 747 charter? Fully fueled and manned for a non-stop flight from Boston to Los Angeles? Not cheap. Not easily done outside ordinary channels or without attracting unwanted attention.

      You won't be doing much damage if all you can get your hands on is a Cessna 172.

    13. Re:It is a no-win situation by flamingnight · · Score: 1

      Scenario #6:
      1. $PRESIDENT and $EXECUTIVE_BRANCH_POLITICIANS do everything that they can to prevent anything even resembling a terrorist attack
      2. Mooninites!
      3. People across the world laugh, and laugh, and laugh. Americans laugh until they get the bill from Uncle Sam at which point everyone else laughs harder.

    14. Re:It is a no-win situation by westlake · · Score: 1
      With options like that, it doesn't matter what they do, as they are always going to be wrong.

      The difference is that in your second scenario the people howling the loudest will be on the "libertarian" political fringe --- left and right --- and have been "crying wolf" since the day they were born.

    15. Re:It is a no-win situation by Jarn_Firebrand · · Score: 0

      HAHAHAHA. *breathe* Excuse me while I take a breath. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

      Lisa: By your logic, I could claim that this rock keeps tigers away.
      Homer: How does it work?
      Lisa: It doesn't... but I don't see any tigers around, do you?
      Homer: Lisa, I would like to buy your rock.

      Ignoring the obvious logical fallacy (it didn't happen so $SOLUTION MUST have worked!), that is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard.

      1. If they are doing everything they can "given the political and budget restraints", doesn't that mean they're doing literally everything? For six years they had a congress that would approve anything they ever asked and they obviously don't care about deficit spending since America is now nine trillion dollars in debt. Or is that number too big for you to comprehend?
      2. Why aren't the American people being told about these foiled terrorist plots that you mention?
      3. If people aren't being told, how do you know about it?
      4. What causes you to completely release common sense?

      Scenario Actual:

      1. $PRESIDENT and $EXECUTIVE_BRANCH_POLITICIANS do everything that they can with their rubber-stamp congress - ignoring things like budget constraints - to appear to me trying to prevent terrorism.
      2. No terrorist attacks happen (good thing because we're as unprepared as September 10, 2001)
      3. Public is mostly not in favor of Our Elected Leader but throwbacks to the pre-cambrian era such as yourself still maintain he's doing A Good Job(tn), evidence to the contrary.

    16. Re:It is a no-win situation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Hooters jet is fully fueled and manned, ready for your rental. How much attention did the last few dozen people to rent it get? Have you heard of them?

      On the other hand, how much damage can what you put in your 6 oz shampoo bottle do?

    17. Re:It is a no-win situation by treeves · · Score: 1

      We have heard of some - obviously they didn't mean anything to you or you weren't paying attention.

      --
      ...the future crusty old bastards are already drinking the Kool-Aid.
    18. Re:It is a no-win situation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Let me give you another situation:
      The police is told that there is going to be a crime.
      There are obviously four possible outcomes:

      1) Police is truthfully told that someone is going to commit a crime but does nothing. (Error of the first kind: rejecting a true hypothesis; cause of 9/11.)
      2) Police is truthfully told that someone is going to commit a crime and does something. (Correctly accepting a true hypothesis.)
      3) Police is falsely told that someone is going to commit a crime but does nothing. (Correctly rejecting a false hypothesis.)
      4) Police is falsely told that someone is going to commit a crime and does something. (Error of the second kind: accepting a false hypothesis; cause of nearly everything after 9/11 - like that "OMG they are going to blow up a plane with mother's milk"-plot).

      What you are doing is constructing a false dichtionomy by claiming only 1 and 4 are possible. In fact, 2 and 3 are possible, too, but only 1 (and 4 for those godless liberals) is ever in the eye of the public because only bad news sell, not good news (compare: Windows Vista all over the news), thus one only hears of the failings of the government.

      One cannot reliably pick them out, because one can only see two cases of what actually happens but not what might have happened: if nothing happens, is that because of (2) preventive measures or because (3) nothing would have happened in the first place? If something happens, is that because it would have (1) happened anyway or (4) the police felt the need to prove their necessity?

      In any case, if nothing happens, it means our laws work and we thus need no additional laws - in fact, we should be looking at which ones we don't need because they are duplicates or inhumane; but if something happens, it means we failed but need to properly apply the laws which are already existing (after all, it should not matter whether you are drunk or not when you run over a pedestrian with a car - bad example, I know).

      Of course, that is my position. That of every government in the world goes more like the folowing: If nothing happens, it means the laws have worked, thus we need at least that many laws. If something happens, however, this means we have not enough laws, thus we need to make more. Never mind that there should be the need to reliably apply them, we will do that when we need some pretense to get some uppity citizen imprisoned.

      And exactly that is the problem: In your scenario 1, the government did the wrong thing: instead, it should have applied the laws and protected the citizens (I know, I know, in the US laws are not there for the citizens but for the powerful). In your scenario 2, by virtue of nothing happening (or even if they caught potential terrorists: They probably would have been caught under the old laws) one should reconsider the new laws whether they are really needed.

      I don't know about US law, but in German law, there exists - or rather, there existed until 9/11 - the concept of "Verhältnismäßigkeit", which means (though IANAL, so take this with a grain of salt) one should consider whether a law
      1) really is needed, i.e. it doesn't do something another law does;
      2) doesn't contradict the "Grundgesetz" (constitution);
      3) is the only way to achieve the goal (necessity; compare 1);
      4) actually reaches the goal (sufficiency: having mothers drink their milk doesn't anything to prevent terrorism - if they even wanted to use liquid explosives, they would a) blow up the airport and b) use some they don't die off [at least, not immediately, so they can blow up themselves]);
      5) actually has a goal (which also should be reachable; anything enacted in the name of "The War On Terror", for example, has not, because terrorism is not a side in a war but a style of fighting).

    19. Re:It is a no-win situation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Whoops, I actually forgot the most important part.
      See, your scenarios 1 and 2 (my (1) and (4) - please always check the numbering) are errors which we do not want. What we (as in "the people of sufficient intelligence and insufficient power" - the government of course wants 4) want are the scenarios (2) and (3), because in neither anyone is harmed (in (1) we are harmed by the criminals [of which are terrorists a kind], in (4) we are harmed by the government).

      Therefore, the government in the scenarios given by you actually IS at fault, because it committed severe errors. Thus, it is far from being a no-win situation, except for the government, which needs those errors to justify expanding its power ((1) something happened? Why, we need more laws; (2) look, we caught someone. This obviously proves we need more laws).

      Most interestingly, in science one chooses the hypothesis that way such that the error of the first kind is more severe and thus tries to minimize that one at the expense of the error of the second kind - however, in politics, the hypothesis is chosen that way such that the error of the second kind is more severe (as we saw with Hitler, the government can do worse things [concentration camps] than terrorists [failing to burn down the Reichstag]) and then still tries to minimize the first one at the expense of the second.

      Also, my scenarios assume that when I say "the police does something" it means it does something which effective - this is far from being a given, as we saw in Boston (a classic case of 4). More commonly, the government just creates another law, but only applying it to unwanted citizens.

    20. Re:It is a no-win situation by stubob · · Score: 1

      But that's assuming that this is an A || !A problem, a "black or white," a "you're with us or against us" set of options. So what happens if $PRESIDENT calmly explains "People of $COUNTRY, today we have had a unique experience. We have become a closer part of the global society. We were attacked not because of any action from the citizenship, but because of the mistakes by me and my predecessors. Many other countries have suffered through this sort of attack, from within and from their enemies. Today we were reminded of the true cost of our freedoms: that we are vulnerable. This attack could have come from any one at any time. But the most important thing we can do is keep on living our lives. We must grieve for those we lost, but we will rebuild and we will move on. So do not forget those we lost, but do not live in fear."

      Then let the government deal with weaknesses in the existing security systems (like re-enforcing cockpit doors, for example) and get back to our lives. I like to compare the attacks on the U.S. with the subway bombings in London. It seems to me that as a whole, the English are better equipped to handle Bad Things happening to them and accepting them as part of life.

      --
      Planning to be moderated ± 1: Bad Pun.
    21. Re:It is a no-win situation by Jarn_Firebrand · · Score: 0

      Oh really? Name one. Give me a link to it.

  6. No by MrHanky · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Being perceived as "tough on terrorism" is far more important than having a workable plan. Politics is mostly about posturing while having your way with an unrelated issue at the same time.

  7. the democrats know what to do by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    not the current ones, i'm talking FDR.

  8. Direct link to Bruce Schneier's article by SPrintF · · Score: 1
    --

    Honesty. Loyalty. Kindness. Laughter. Generosity. Magic!

  9. We can't have any more politician politicians by superpulpsicle · · Score: 4, Insightful

    There should be a few new rules to be a president/VP of the U.S.

    #1. If you start a war, you send your kids to the frontlines of whatever country you are attacking.

    #2. Your kid stays there till your term is over.

    #3. You cannot own any companies or be a shareholder of any.

    1. Re:We can't have any more politician politicians by truthsearch · · Score: 1

      I think we should alter #1 to go back to the really old days when the leader actually led the army into battle. The President and VP should be the first two people to enter every major battle.

      Let's see Bush actually complete his service.

    2. Re:We can't have any more politician politicians by wass · · Score: 1

      Agreed. Maybe extend #1 to include the children of any Senators or Congresspeople that vote for said war.

      Of course all this will do is open a bureaucratic maze of legal loopholes to allow them to declare war without declaring war, to keep their own kids off the front lines. Ie, kind of like how Congress never officially declared war on Iraq, yet by any sense of the word we're at war.

      --

      make world, not war

    3. Re:We can't have any more politician politicians by silentounce · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There are some people that already do this. Like John McCain. Hey, wait a second, he supports the war. Actually, I believe that you'll find that the majority of politicians that have relatives in Iraq support the fight as well. McCain wants to be president and he'll feet these inane requirements, plus he was a POW for several years himself. I don't know why I'm even replying to this thread. It's simply ignorant.

      --
      There are many tongues to talk, and but few heads to think. -Victor Hugo
    4. Re:We can't have any more politician politicians by ArcherB · · Score: 3, Insightful

      #1. If you start a war, you send your kids to the frontlines of whatever country you are attacking.

      I served so the Bush twins wouldn't have to. I'll gladly donate my service to them. That's why it's called a Volunteer Force. No one is in Iraq that doesn't want to be. If they wanted out, all they have to do is make a pass at their commanding officer (provided their commanding officer is the same sex they are)

      #2. Your kid stays there till your term is over.

      Did that... served in the MidEast under two administrations.

      #3. You cannot own any companies or be a shareholder of any.

      Their money is in a blind trust. They don't know where their money is. Besides, if they had to put their money into common interest baring accounts, they would get blasted everytime the interest rates went up. Or would you prefer that they just keep all their money under the mattress in the Lincoln bedroom?

      --
      There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
    5. Re:We can't have any more politician politicians by gregoryb · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I read a book recently that touched on something similar to this. Part of the argument was if more of our leadership actually had any military experience, they might stop treating the military as a black box they can just throw any problem in and crank out any solution they desired. Also, if more of our leadership (cultural as well as political) had children who served in the military, they might think twice of using the military in some of the ways it's been used in the past decade.

      The book was titled AWOL. Pretty interesting book, and while I don't agree with everything in it, it made me think.

      -gb

    6. Re:We can't have any more politician politicians by wass · · Score: 1

      Actually, I believe that you'll find that the majority of politicians that have relatives in Iraq support the fight as well.

      Majority of politicians with relatives in Iraq? There's only a handful of Senators and Congressmen that actually have their children or their siblings serving in the war. Many are just begging to count their 4th cousin twice removed that's serving, so they can claim they have relatives in the war.

      Look at the biggest pushers for the war, and consider how many of them have children serving. McCain is one of the very few exceptions. You also bring up his POW status, which is ironic since that's what Bush shamelessly exploited during the pre-2000 primaries, to convince voters that McCain is batshit insane from his days of torture and therefore unfit for office. Sad, coming from Bush who used family connections to even get into the Texas Air Guard during the draft, and then went AWOL.

      Since you bring up McCain, why not bring up Senator Jim Webb of Virginia, whose son is serving in Iraq, yet he also wants to bring the troops home. A few months ago Webb's son was almost killed by an IED explosion, and when Webb met Bush at the White House a few days later, Bush was explicitly told to be sensitive about this to Webb. Yet Bush still managed to be a dickhead to Webb when Webb said he wants to bring the troops home.

      The basic pattern is that of the pushers for the Iraq war, including this latest surge attempt, very few have members of their immediate family's serving. Put Jenna and Barbara Bush on the front lines, put Cheney's daughter on the front lines, then see how much George and Dick will want to keep US troops in Iraq.

      --

      make world, not war

    7. Re:We can't have any more politician politicians by orielbean · · Score: 1

      King Leonidas for the win!

    8. Re:We can't have any more politician politicians by profplump · · Score: 1

      Because obviously as the child of the president you deserve to be forced into military service. After all, you always could have chosen other parents, or been a more obedient child so your mother wouldn't have to start a war.

    9. Re:We can't have any more politician politicians by crabpeople · · Score: 1

      Compairing serving in kuwait, and the relative peace that followed to whats going on now = free

      Completely missing the point to brag about your own military history = priceless.

      --
      I'll just use my special getting high powers one more time...
    10. Re:We can't have any more politician politicians by Anonymous+Cowpat · · Score: 1

      agreed - the President's kids don't necessarily support their parent's policies and shouldn't be forced to go and risk their lives to support them. That's a greater violation of their human rights than a draft ("yeah, we're drafting you & you as a bargaining chip against your parent"). Heck, it's no better than kidnapping the leader of a country's kids and holding them to ransom until national policy changes and, for added fun, every day you throw 5 dice and if you get 5 sixes, they get killed.

      --
      FGD 135
    11. Re:We can't have any more politician politicians by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd rather have the politicians' children go to war than those of the poor and often times as well, the ignorant. It's supposed to be a deterrent for the politicians to face when they go to war, i.e. they understand the consequences fully of risking the lives of others and that the result ought to be worth it, not just to further the progress of the military industrial complex and thus make money.

      In any case, you must be the son / daughter of a congressman, or else you wouldn't be complaining.

    12. Re:We can't have any more politician politicians by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'll gladly donate my service to them.

      Have you ever even been in a combat situation like what's going on in Iraq? Have you been in that situation for a year or more at a time? We were lied to in order to start the war. They kept changing their story on why we invaded. They lied about how long it would take, how much it would cost, and how difficult it would be. They did everything they could to silence those that disagreed with them. The ones that said we needed a lot more troops. The ones that said that we would face an insurgency. The ones that said we had no good reason to go in the first place. So yeah, I think that if someone is going to be so determined to send other people's kids to war, they should be just as determined to send their own. Mostly I wish people hadn't been stupid enough to believe the crap that the administration was spewing all the way up to and throughout the war. It's fucking sad.
    13. Re:We can't have any more politician politicians by Deagol · · Score: 1
      #1. If you start a war, you send your kids to the frontlines of whatever country you are attacking.

      I think Michael Moore attacked this brilliantly in one of his movies (Fahrenheit 9/11, right?) where he walked around Capital Hill with enlistment forms and handed them to senators/congressmen with kids. Their reactions were priceless.

      I'd love to see a national campaign by some anti-war org who tracks politician's kids and tallies whether or not they are serving in the armed forces. I'm sure the numbers would be quite telling.

    14. Re:We can't have any more politician politicians by ArcherB · · Score: 0

      Have you ever even been in a combat situation like what's going on in Iraq? Have you been in that situation for a year or more at a time?
      Nope. Signed up for it but served during a peaceful period.

      We were lied to in order to start the war. They kept changing their story on why we invaded.
      Bullshit! Everyone honestly and truly believed that Iraq had WMD's... well most everyone, just like most everyone believes in global warming. The administration didn't keep changing the reasons for invading Iraq, the presented a shitload of them and what stuck was the WMD's. That's all the press reported. The conveniently left out the half million dead children (according to UNICEF, anyway), the mass graves, the torture chambers (REAL torture, not cheerleader pyramids).

      They lied about how long it would take, how much it would cost, and how difficult it would be.
      You mean how Clinton lied about how long US soldiers were to be in Bosnia. I remember hearing "Christmas of this year". BTW, servicemen are still in Bosnia, and Japan, and Germany, and Panama, and Korea... need I go on. No one knows how long a war will take. Besides, the Iraqi regime was overthrown in a couple of days. Since then, we've been cleaning up.

      They did everything they could to silence those that disagreed with them.
      So it's OK to silence Global Warming deniers, but not WMD deniers? Actually, if they were silenced, they must have gotten their message out telepathically, because I heard it.

      The ones that said we needed a lot more troops
      The same ones that say we don't need more troops now? It's funny how fast they change their tune when it is no longer counter to the President. Which proves my point that these guys would take down America if it was the only way to take down GWB. They care more about their own political careers than they do about the country or ethics. (See my SIG for an example). NOW CAN I QUESTION THEIR PATRIOTISM?

      Mostly I wish people hadn't been stupid enough to believe the crap that the administration was spewing all the way up to and throughout the war. It's fucking sad.
      The crap the admin spewed was the same crap everyone else was fed. The admin just repeated it. France, Germany, Spain, Great Britain, China, Russia and the list goes on all bought into the same crap without the administrations help. So you can call the Prez dishonest, but you are being dishonest yourself when you say that. Google "George Tenet" "Slam Dunk" for several examples. And then ask yourself, when the director of the CIA tells the president that we are in danger, do you want a president who will act or one who will take a poll to see which way the wind is blowing? Once the war starts, do you want someone who will finish the job, or someone who will abandon it to turn into another Afghanistan?

      --
      There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
    15. Re:We can't have any more politician politicians by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


      Welcome to the 101st Chairborne.

    16. Re:We can't have any more politician politicians by wurp · · Score: 1

      You seem to have contradicted yourself. Either everyone honestly believed there were WMD, or you heard the WMD deniers loud and clear. Not both.

      And, while I am the last person to defend Saddam Hussein's human rights record, it is worth pointing out that the US govt carefully studied the effects of destroying Iraq's water treatment plants (thousands dead, mostly children, from polluted water sources), then went in and destroyed them in the Gulf War. (http://www.fff.org/freedom/fd0401c.asp) That is responsible in large part for the dead children - the direct, premeditated actions of the government you're defending.

    17. Re:We can't have any more politician politicians by abb3w · · Score: 1

      If they wanted out, all they have to do is make a pass at their commanding officer (provided their commanding officer is the same sex they are)

      The poster didn't say what kind of "service" was intended....

      --
      //Information does not want to be free; it wants to breed.
    18. Re:We can't have any more politician politicians by silentounce · · Score: 1

      I am not a "fortunate son" like you accuse the gp to be. I served, I volunteered, enlisted. My father never finished high school, my mother went to college. But I was never poor as a child and I was educated. I scored 740V, 800M on my SAT, if I'd taken it a second time like those obsessive students or actually prepared for it I probably would have got a 1600. I had all A's in high school. I would have been valedictorian out of over 700 graduating students but I took some unweighted electives. I had a full ride scholarship to Alfred University, a very good school. I volunteered, I enlisted. I current attend a university and hold a 4.0 GPA. You may say that I'm the exception. I am not. The majority of men and women I served with in the Marine Corps were the most dedicated and clever people I have ever met. Many of them were not "poor." I knew a couple whose parents were millionaires. That misconception is the "ignorance." I see it said all the time. People join the military because they are poor or because they are uneducated. That does happen, not "often times", andit should not be applied to the entire military, especially the officers. If you want to bitch about the war why don't you enlist, or join an anti-war activist group, or do something positive other than lambast the troops who protect your freedoms and the politicians. You could at least have the guts to not post as an anonymous coward.

      The stuff mentioned above about my academic career is not bragging, it's to illustrate a point.

      --
      There are many tongues to talk, and but few heads to think. -Victor Hugo
    19. Re:We can't have any more politician politicians by ArcherB · · Score: 1

      Either everyone honestly believed there were WMD, or you heard the WMD deniers loud and clear. Not both.


      Good catch. How about every world government believed their were stockpiles of WMD's based on their intel services. However, at least in our own gov't and population, there were those that refused to believe. Compare it to the Global Warming debate. Many slashdotters will say that everyone knows that it is man made, even though there are those that disagree.

      And, while I am the last person to defend Saddam Hussein's human rights record, it is worth pointing out that the US govt carefully studied the effects of destroying Iraq's water treatment plants (thousands dead, mostly children, from polluted water sources), then went in and destroyed them in the Gulf War. (http://www.fff.org/freedom/fd0401c.asp) That is responsible in large part for the dead children - the direct, premeditated actions of the government you're defending.

      True, but Hussein could have rebuilt and maintained the water plants simply by "dry-docking" a few palaces. He chose not to. Besides the oil-4-food program provided funds for clean water. Corruption from Iraq and the UN bled those funds off.

      When it is all said and done, what makes up my mind is Russia telling the US that its Intel is reporting that Iraq was planning a US attack. Given the current intel on Iraqi WMD's, that would make 9-11 look like gang-related drive-by! I'd rather have a Prez that would act on that info than try to protect his political career and legacy.

      --
      There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
    20. Re:We can't have any more politician politicians by R2.0 · · Score: 1

      "Since you bring up McCain, why not bring up Senator Jim Webb of Virginia, whose son is serving in Iraq, yet he also wants to bring the troops home. A few months ago Webb's son was almost killed by an IED explosion, and when Webb met Bush at the White House a few days later, Bush was explicitly told to be sensitive about this to Webb. Yet Bush still managed to be a dickhead to Webb when Webb said he wants to bring the troops home."

      Huh? Bush asked how Webb's son was doing. That was being insensitive?

      Then Webb replied with his "He wants to come home" comment - Can you honestly say that wasnt a political response? And Bush says "You know that's not what I meant". Who was being the insensitive one here? Should Bush have simply walked away, and thus be perceived as snubbing Webb?

      Then Webb comes back with something about "Don't tell me about my relationship with my son." WTF?

      Webb has a genuine greivance as a father, but he also has a chip on his shoulder, and acted like an ass. Instead of using his new position to further his goal of getting the troops home, he used his first face-to-face

      Webb has shown his political hand for all to see - Bush says black, Webb says white; Bush says the sky is blue, Webb says it's green. The fact that the Dems put him up for the response to the State of the Union show they know this very well, and are amplifying it, which make them look just as politically motivated. Webb's been neutralized - he won't take part in any substantive negotiations, as his position was crystallized on the first week of his term. He also won't be important in any non-Iraq issues - he's defined himself as a one-issue politician.

      If you are going to pick a politiian to ride as a white charger against the Dark Forces of the Republicans, pick a beter one - Webb serves both his cause, and the people of Virginia, poorly.

      --
      "As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
    21. Re:We can't have any more politician politicians by ArcherB · · Score: 1

      Ignorantly accusing a veteran of bragging for mentioning that he is a veteran = time + cost of Internet connection

      Completely disregarding the merits of a post and replying with insults = worthless

      --
      There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
    22. Re:We can't have any more politician politicians by dk.r*nger · · Score: 1

      #3. You cannot own any companies or be a shareholder of any.


      That's just cry-baby anti-capitalism. As another poster points out, their shares are in a blind trust.
      Next you want them not to have any CEO-friends. And I'll counter that and demand that no politician has any labor union friends. And you'll say they can't have any interests in faith communities. And so it goes. The only guy left to actually be electable has never voiced an opinion in his life - and that's hardly a good candidate for office.

      Hey: These people are elected with the wast majority of these affiliations out in the public. Base your vote on that.

      #1. If you start a war, you send your kids to the frontlines of whatever country you are attacking.
      #2. Your kid stays there till your term is over.


      Uh-uh. And if a politician raises any tax on anything, his own family has to pay UMPTY times that, no matter if they are eligible or not.
    23. Re:We can't have any more politician politicians by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You do realize that the President's and the Vice-President's assets are required by law to be transfered into a blind trust before assuming office, right?* We already have a requirement for your third point; it's just not being enforced properly. I doubt anything we come up with ever will though.

      See http://www.house.gov/ethics/ETHICS_IN_GOVERNMENT_A CT_LINK_PAGE.htm or the Ethics in Government Act of 1978.

  10. Not exactly. by khasim · · Score: 3, Informative

    Most of the time the politicians WANT the people to be afraid because fear is an emotion and emotions are easier to use when re-election time comes.

    Politicians who run on fear don't have any thing else.

    1. Re:Not exactly. by Jherek+Carnelian · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Most of the time the politicians WANT the people to be afraid because fear is an emotion and emotions are easier to use when re-election time comes.


      "I want this country to realize that we stand on the edge of oblivion.
        I want everyone to remember *why* they need us!"
  11. Reactionary, not preventative by RichPowers · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If the government was seriously interested in reducing the threat from terrorism, they would've come up with a comprehensive, and practical, plan for creating stability and peace in the Middle East. But that's simply not the case. For example, the only thing the extremists hate more than the US and the West is Israel. Unfortunately, the Israeli/Palestinian peace process has never been on the administration's frontburner when compared to Iraq and Saudi Arabia policies. And speaking of Iraq, what better way to galvanize potential terrorists than by fulfilling Osama's message that the Infidels want to invade the holy lands? Not having a competent reconstruction plan or means of dealing with sectarian conflict doesn't help either. Then there's the perception that the US is ignoring diplomacy with Iran because President Bush wants war. Even if this claim is meritless, that is still how many people see it. All of this, coupled with deep-rooted societal issues, creates the conditions that foster terrorism. New government agencies and stupid color-coded charts do jack shit to address the core issues. And by relying on bureaucrats, as the author says, we're setting ourselves up for disaster. The government needs to stop with the feel-good, expensive, worthless Homeland Security measures and really tackle the issue at its source...

    1. Re:Reactionary, not preventative by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Not having a competent reconstruction plan or means of dealing with sectarian conflict doesn't help either."

      I am the last person to defend Good old george W., but how the heck do you deal with conflict between ethnic groups that has gone on for thousands of years? Maybe its not as bad as Israel Vs. Palestine, but give me a break, there really is no way you can deal with that, and anyone that says that this could have been prevented really isn't looking at the big picture.

      The big picture is that you need to rule over these ethnic groups with an ironfist (IE: Yugoslavia with communism, or Saddam with Iraq.)

      But your right about one thing in particular: The US is bad about preventing things, but great at reacting and even over-reaching.

    2. Re:Reactionary, not preventative by tom's+a-cold · · Score: 1

      If the government was seriously interested in reducing the threat from terrorism, they would've come up with a comprehensive, and practical, plan for creating stability and peace in the Middle East.
      You missed a condition: "and if they were competent." They are corrupt, ignorant, blinded by ideology, and most importantly, the most complex and disciplined task they ever accomplished was the propaganda effort that led to the war. They haven't been able to do a single thing right besides that, and that was wrong too. So suggesting that they might have thought things through better is completely beside the point. They are motivated by anger at free people in the US (that's why they hate anything that empowers more people), by greed, and by lust for power.

      But you're right. I'd take to TSA and put them to work filling sandbags somewhere. That's more likely to help save lives than the pointless charade they're doing now.

      --
      Get your teeth into a small slice: the cake of liberty
    3. Re:Reactionary, not preventative by TFloore · · Score: 1

      Much as I hate defending Bush...

      Ahh, yes, sniping with nothing but drug-induced good feelings to counter reality. (What are you on, anyway? If it lets you ignore reality that well, I might want some the next time I break my collarbone.)

      they would've come up with a comprehensive, and practical, plan for creating stability and peace in the Middle East.

      No such thing. There never will be. There never was. Not for 5000 years of recorded history. It has always been this group warring with that group, this tribe fighting that tribe, this sect against that sect. Always.

      The only time there was anything resembling peace was when one side got enough of an advantage to force stability on a region. Kind of like Saddam Hussein did in Iraq for about 30 years. He was a megalomaniacal dictator, but he kept the peace. Mostly because he killed you if you broke the peace.

      That's how you get stability and peace in the Middle East. Read some history and you'll find that to be true.

      the only thing the extremists hate more than the US and the West is Israel.

      Yes, but fixing Israel won't make them like us. Enough of them have declared a goal of the annihilation of the West and world domination for Islam, that you know where that road will lead. That's the whole point of extremists. There is no compromise, because the only acceptable conclusion for them is totally their way.

      And, have you looked at what "fixing Israel" will mean? For Hamas, fixing Israel means the total destruction of the state of Israel. This is why the West has a problem with the Palestinian unity government right now. A government that does not recognize the right of Israel to exist as a separate state is not acceptable. You can argue all you want that Israel should not have been created in the 1940s in the first place (and I might even agree with you, this was a foreseeable problem then) but we're stuck with the situation now.

      Figure out a solution that does not involve killing about 6 million people, please. Oh, and it has to be a solution that the extremists will accept, remember, you gave that condition.

      what better way to galvanize potential terrorists than by fulfilling Osama's message that the Infidels want to invade the holy lands?

      Look at what the Russians are doing with their little "internal matter" in Chechnya. That's religiously-motivated, and has nothing to do with holy lands. Not that I agree with what they are doing there.

      But really, leaving the Middle East won't solve things. First, we do have national interests there (oil, obviously), though I'd be happier if we didn't. Switch to electric cars with nuclear power generation. (I'd like to continue that statement with "It'll be expensive, but it will get us out of that mess" except that it won't get us out of that mess.) But, if you read the teachings of Islam, you learn a few scary things. First, it is unacceptable for a Muslim to live under non-Muslim rule. This means that, if a single Muslim moves to and lives in a country, as a matter of religion, that government of that country must convert to Islam, and enforce Islamic law. This is the position of the religion. Second, non-Muslims in a Muslim country are second-class citizens, beneath all Muslims. Now, historically, non-Muslims in Muslim countries were treated a LOT better than Muslims in non-Muslim countries, but that's not really saying much, and being a second-class citizen is unacceptable. This is part of why you see so often the Muslim extremist position that democratic elections are great, until the first Muslim administration gets elected, and then the elections stop and the government doesn't change. At least until the next war.

      the perception that the US is ignoring diplomacy with Iran because President Bush wants war

      Bush doesn't want war. He just has the same position that a lot of religious extremists have. (He's a born-again Christian, remember. And just as much of a fruitcake as that makes you think he is.) He thi

      --
      This is my sig. There are many like it but this one is... Oops. Frank, I've got your sig again! Where's mine?
  12. As a slogan, yes by digitig · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "Commonsense security" would make a grand slogan. But in practice that would be the same stuff we get now, because the spin merchants would insist that whatever they're promoting is commonsense. "It's common sense to imprison everybody and have robots look after their basic needs; after all, if it saves one child..."

    --
    Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
  13. my speaking points in a winning presentation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I can get a standing ovation in any presentation (even a presentation about replacing batteries in our server room UPS) by saying: "We must be eternally vigilant in this post-911 world where terrorist are waiting to strike the heart of every god-fearing citizen of this great country. Common sense dictates that the majority of the actions that we take will not be done in fear but in positive response to a potential threat against our children. Security must be on the mind of every person in this meeting and we also must continue to strive for our united goals to eradicate the danger"
    Then, I quickly add...
    "And so, we have to replace the 3-year old batteries in the server room"

    Nobody argues. I could have said "we need to have three-hour Doom tournaments once a week" and I would get it.
    Feel free to cut-and-paste my speech and try it out at your next budget meeting.

    TDz.

  14. Do not agree by scuba_steve_1 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I do not agree...at all.

    Certainly, we are not without sin, but the current rift is more complex than you portray. At the very least, it is due in part to a clash of cultures and religions that are almost diametrically opposed to one another. Freedom of speech, expression and, yes, religion are basic tenets of American society. We have grown so used to these basic freedoms that we assume that they are universally true...and they are not...regardless of how much we (or others) would like them to be.

    I am not attempting to flame, but I think that it is fair to say that some societies (especially some of those in the Mid-East) hold a specific religious dogma to be of principal importance to their society. All other laws and rules of behavior flow from that religious dogma...or, at the very least, cannot conflict with it. I think that it is also fair to say that the level of tolerance for conflicting beliefs is fairly low. Doubt it? Try carrying a stack of bibles into Saudi Arabia and see how far you get through customs. I'll tell you how far - to the line that leads to jail:

    http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGMDE2300220 00
    http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1 012.html

    In America, the squeaky wheel gets the oil. I worked in Japan for some time and realized that a somewhat similar Japanese phrase crystallizes the difference between our two cultures - the nail that sticks up gets hit. The clash of philosophies between Islam and the West make the differences between the US and Japan look trivial.

    1. Re:Do not agree by sunwukong · · Score: 1

      I do not agree...at all.

      Sunuva .... with that little blurb I had Shatner's voice reading out your post!

      You've ruined Homeland Security for me!

    2. Re:Do not agree by Watson+Ladd · · Score: 1

      Don't fool yourself. This isn't a war between secularity and Islam. If that was the case we could win in one minute by pointing out that secular science created air conditioning, and the bad effects of it breaking down in the desert, or put an embargo on antibiotics. This is a war between two Jacobian states: The Christian theocracies and the Islamic ones. The Balkenende IV cabinet announced plans to ban the burka on grounds of security despite this being nonsense. Who put this in the election campaign? The Christian party. Face it, "If things go on--" is going to be reality, or we have a global dark age.

      --
      Inventions have long since reached their limit, and I see no hope for further development.-- Frontinus, 1st cent. AD
    3. Re:Do not agree by vux984 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Try carrying a stack of bibles into Saudi Arabia and see how far you get through customs. I'll tell you how far - to the line that leads to jail:

      Try this on for size: Try carrying a stack of Taliban-endorsed religious texts into the United States of America and see how far you get through customs. For bonus fun, get a deep tan, grow a beard, and wear traditional middle eastern attire. You might make it through... eventually.

      In America, the squeaky wheel gets the oil. I worked in Japan for some time and realized that a somewhat similar Japanese phrase crystallizes the difference between our two cultures - the nail that sticks up gets hit.

      If by crstallize you mean, "make no sense whatsoever".

      Common western phrases such as:

      "rock the boat" or "make waves" or "stick your neck out" all refer to idea that if you make yourself noticed you'll end up in trouble, as all of these phrases are usually warnings, and are often preceded by "Don't". I'd say the idea characterized by Japan's "the nail that sticks up gets hit" phrase is WELL represented here.

      Certainly, we are not without sin, but the current rift is more complex than you portray. At the very least, it is due in part to a clash of cultures and religions that are almost diametrically opposed to one another. Freedom of speech, expression and, yes, religion are basic tenets of American society. We have grown so used to these basic freedoms that we assume that they are universally true...and they are not...regardless of how much we (or others) would like them to be.

      1) The various cultural and religious disputes going on are rarely diametric. The differences are usually pretty minor details. People will still hate each other over them, and fight to the death over them, but if you take a step back, these great 'cultural divides' you are suggesting simply don't exist.

      2) America was not attacked because of "freedom of speech, expression, and religion". The terrorist threat is entirely due to the Wests interfering in the middle east for its own selfish interests.

      If the US was an oppressive fascist state run by the Taliban, but had interfered in the Middle East for its own interests the same way the 'free and democratic US' had, the terrorists would hate THAT U.S. just as much. The only difference would be the rhetoric used to keep the 'hate-on' up.

      If the Middle East was a predominantly Catholic region, and the US had interfered with it in the same way, there would still be terrorists that hate us just as much. The only difference would be the rhetoric...

    4. Re:Do not agree by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      these great 'cultural divides' you are suggesting simply don't exist.

      Post-"freed the hell out of"-Afghanistan tried to execute a man for being a Christian (Italy saved him, granting him asylum). "With us or against us" is the rule of government for the extremist Muslims. You're either [insert their specific flavor of] Islamic or you're next on the list for extermination as a heathen. These extremists have no middle grounds, not even for their fellow Muslims if they practice the "wrong way".

      If you think this is an isolated experience, just wait until the first amendment gets repealed by nuts here who think God should be put "back" in government, and the Baptists take over the country. I suspect they'll have some payback planned for the treatment Baptists were getting in early America.

    5. Re:Do not agree by khallow · · Score: 1

      Try this on for size: Try carrying a stack of Taliban-endorsed religious texts into the United States of America and see how far you get through customs. For bonus fun, get a deep tan, grow a beard, and wear traditional middle eastern attire. You might make it through... eventually.

      I think your odds are much better. I certainly would risk bringing a bunch of Korans into the US before I bring a bunch of bibles into Saudi Arabia.
    6. Re:Do not agree by vux984 · · Score: 1

      I think your odds are much better. I certainly would risk bringing a bunch of Korans into the US before I bring a bunch of bibles into Saudi Arabia.

      When I said "Taliban endorsed religious texts" I was attempting to explictly expand the scope to specically Taliban -endorsed- content. So, not just Koran's, but Taliban endorsed interpretations thereof, the Taliban 'coles notes' to the Koran, if you will, etc.

      Will U.S. customs let you through? Yeah probably. Eventually. But I think the same can be said of Saudi Arabia. Its against the law to publicly display Christian symbols such as crosses and bibles, but I'm fairly confident you could move a box of bibles through Saudi customs provided it was done properly and with the appropriate propriety. Ironically, I think U.S. customs is more apt to cause an unfounded incident.

      This is my latest experience with US customs:

      A coworker forgot their laptop in Canada when on a business trip, and so we tried to courier it to him. US customs held it up.

      They wanted us to provide information regarding its origin of manufacture. (Its stamped on the bottom of the laptop, but of course THEY had it not us.) Then they wanted the address IN CHINA where it was manufactured - who knows?! Then they wanted the Social Insurance Number of the individual who was receiving it because he was a "Canadian". Then they wanted clarification of our business relationship - were we selling it or repairing it under warranty etc? (None of the above! It was his laptop. His own employer was sending him his own beat up 2 year old laptop, that he'd simply left behind, for him to use, and which he will bring back.) ... THEN they wanted paperwork for the FCC for the "importation of electronics" (Fedex at least had anticipated that one, and we'd actually sent those forms, and kept copies). But even so it was ridiculous, the FCC ID was stamped right on it after all. And it wasn't being 'imported' to the US for resale nor even to be left behind.

      If he'd remembered to take it with him, they wouldn't have given it more than a glance. But put it in a box and try to mail it, and suddenly its the most complex transaction you can imagine.

      The biggest irony though, was the that the laptop in question was actually originally purchased in Oregon, on one of the employees previous business trips.

    7. Re:Do not agree by vux984 · · Score: 1

      Your conflating 'extreme actions' with 'extreme differences'.

      They aren't that different. They are blowing those differences out of way out of proportion to the point of killing people over it, something that is hypocritcal even within their own religions. Much like fanatic pro-lifers.

      Ultimately, it is NOT the case that we can't all just get along due to some "great cultural divide" that makes it simply impossible for us to coexist peacefully. That sort of difference simply isn't there. At this point yeah, a lot of factions are refusing to bend so much as a hair to live in peace -- but that's not really due to differences in culture or religion. Its the same pig-headedness, politics, power plays and egos, that can get in the way of peaceful relations between *anybody*.

  15. Unfortunately self interest interferes by rtb61 · · Score: 3, Insightful
    It is far more than just 'coverings ones ass'. The is also the power trip of being able to control people and make them jump through hoops. Add to that there is job security, no inflated risk, no job to contain the risk, real or not. Then there is the opportunity for promotion, the greater the risk, the bigger the department, the higher the head of the departments salary as well as an inflated sence of self worth for that department head. Incumbent politics also loves a populace who feels under threat as they are less likely to vote the other party in, FUD always tends to win over the unknowing. Then there are the corporations that profit as a result of all those security threats, security systems, guards etc.

    Everything remains until such time as the electorate get sick of all of it and kick out the party that is profiting by it and replace them with the politic party that will shift the focus away from terrorizing the public with bogus threats and focus on all those mundane issues that will affect the lives of the majority like, universal health care, universal education, the environment and the falling average standard of living ie they toss out the party that focuses on the wealthy minority and making them richer, safer and protecting them from the poor that the rich create and instead focus upon the working poor and on preventing the now shrinking middle class from sliding down to join the working poor.

    You can always tell the most corrupt politicians because they will always pat themselves on the back for how much profit the corporations and the wealthy that control those corporations are making and completely ignore how many ex-middle class families have joined the ranks of the working poor.

    --
    Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
  16. I blame the electorate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We get the government we deserve.

    No politician has even been fired for CYA. I doubt they will start firing them now.

    Most people like the feel good security. It makes them feel safe. If you point out the men with the guns don't mean much if the airport perimeter is not secure or the luggage is not scanned, they don't worry. It's about the perception of security.

    The American electorate is not particularly nuanced. Most buy into their candidates merely by party affiliation, or the people they see on TV. They buy their illusions of security with as little thought.

    Every time someone dies somewhere of anything, people cry out for a new law to fix the supposed problem. Politicians rarely get in the way of the response, because it is a safe move to "do something" without doing anything or actually caring about the real outcomes, of even that pesky constitution.

    We either need to change the way we vote or who we vote for if we have any intent on changing this mess.

  17. Security? by RyanFenton · · Score: 3, Insightful


    When I think of the term security, my first thought is as the first word in the term "security blanket". It's an emotional state for a person, not a logical state to be achieved in a system.

    The same holds whenever I hear the term 'homeland security' and 'national security' - these systems are not designed, oriented, or run in any way to make an impervious wall to potential damage - they are, and have always been, publicity measures to evoke the emotional state of security.

    If we were to create a system of real 'functional' national security, it would be a nightmare all around. We would have to make it practically impossible for any damage to be done to the protected area - which isn't plausible unless you completely prevented living things from being in the protected area or anything in range. Even the middle of the Demilitarized Zone in Korea would not fit such a definition.

    Beyond this technicality though, people don't want even limited functional security. They want a shield from external consequences - they want a daddy to look over them, a very biased daddy who will listen to their complaints and hurt the bad guys. This, to a degree, is the goal behind the current illusion of security.

    At the same time though, I'm glad it is the merely political/emotional system it is. Because I'd rather have a bumbling mostly-absent daddy-figure in that space, than a system which actually had the power to implement a system of authoritarian measures beyond most people's 'convenience' threshold. I acknowledge that I'm in mild danger without some precautions (in any case, really) - but I find an entrenched abusable 'security' environment much more terrifying than all the horrible rebel terrorists in the world, in the same way that I'd find a poison labeled as candy more terrifying than all the poison in the world.

    Ryan Fenton

    1. Re:Security? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then I assume you have failed to read up on The RealID Act http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_ID_Act

  18. obligatory... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  19. You're on the right track, but apply Occam's Razor by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    1) Stoke terror fear, playing to basic self-preservation instinct - now you have the peoples' attention
    2) Sell info, services, products, agendas (hidden or otherwise), snake oil and lies under guise of protection
    3) (not needed)
    4) PROFIT!

    There's money (and one less step) in them thar fears!

  20. In the words of Boots Riley by spun · · Score: 3, Insightful

    War ain't about one man against the next,
    It's poor people dying so the rich cash checks.

    --
    - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
  21. Cynics abound.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ahh, Illusion. The cornerstone of any great Republic. Usually associated with the beginning of its downfall.

    Unfortunately, illusion is needed as reality is too cold and harsh for mass consumption by the public.

    /for a good time watch the movie 'CRANK'

  22. Did I miss something? by Beached · · Score: 1

    Apparently the Germans bombed Perl Harbor? At least that's what the article said. I know that the Japanese allied with them to get some oil in WWII but I do not remember reading about 109's or Heinkels over Perl Harbor.

    --
    ---- aut viam inveniam aut faciam
    1. Re:Did I miss something? by Chr0me · · Score: 1, Informative

      yes. It was called _Animal_House_.

    2. Re:Did I miss something? by peektwice · · Score: 1

      Is Perl Harbor anywhere near Awkland?

      --
      Other than this text, there is no discernible information contained in this sig.
  23. Political Banners by flaming+error · · Score: 4, Funny

    > wouldn't 'Commonsense Homeland Security' be
      > a winning political banner

    Nope. The media won't understand it. That banner has too many words.

  24. Re: Ignorance, not insight by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And speaking of Iraq, what better way to galvanize potential terrorists than by fulfilling Osama's message that the Infidels want to invade the holy lands?

    In fact, bin Laden was refering to American bases such as Prince Sultan Air Base in Saudi Arabia, created to enforce the U.N.-mandated southern no-fly zone established post Gulf War I to stop Saddam Hussein (May He Rot In Hell for Eternity) from committing genocide against Iraq's Shiite population.

    IIRC, the American military presence at Prince Sultan and other other locations went to almost nil within 30 days of the liberation of Iraq.

    And the "deep-rooted" causes of Islamic radicalism is a religion that is stuck in the 9th Century.

    But you go ahead and buy into that jihadi/"Progressive" propaganda. Asshole.

  25. Def: Common Sense by canipeal · · Score: 1

    commonsense (km'n-sns')adj.
    Having or exhibiting native good judgment: "commonsense scholarship on the foibles and oversights of a genius" (Times Literary Supplement).

    Synonyms: astute, businesslike, commonsense, down-to-earth, earthy, hard, hard-boiled*, level-headed, matter-of-fact, practical, pragmatic, pragmatical, prudent, rational, real, reasonable, sane, sensible, shrewd, sober, sound, unfantastic, unidealistic, unromantic, unsentimental, utilitarian

    Antonyms: "Commonsense Homeland Security"

  26. Kill children's parents. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Oh, no, wait... That's how you increase terrorism.

    hmmm.

    1. Re:Kill children's parents. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      then kill the children. Its very like the Trojan War:
      Trojan: Even if you destroy Troy, the sons of Troy will hunt you down.
      Greek: Then all the sons of Troy will die.

      Different circumstances, same idea. If you go against a sufficiently organized group, the only two reasonable courses of action are non-interference with the group or total annihilation of the group.

  27. Exactly. by khasim · · Score: 1

    The people will still be the people. They might be voting against you, but they are still the people.

    In a Democracy, the government will still be the government. You might not be re-elected to it, but it is still the government.

    The politician is not the government. The politician is not the nation. The politician is not the people.

    These have all existed before the politician and will exist after the politician.

    But the politician will attempt to confuse them and portray himself/herself as the people, the nation, the government, the only thing that stands between all of them and oblivion.

  28. Einstein Says: by flaming+error · · Score: 1

    "'Common sense' is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen."

    Just so you know your audience.

  29. Re:We can't afford more morons like you by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In case you hadn't heard, membership in the U.S. armed forces is voluntary

    How can a parent "send" their seventeen year-old child into the military?

    Oops! I forgot - no facts allowed when the "reality-based" community has the floor.

    Asshole.

  30. Not just the media's fault by jmorris42 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The problem is more complex than just blaming the media. It is a circular problem, modern Americans are amoral, lazy and uneducated so the media gives em what they want. Of course the media also had a large hand in creating that populace but gets to share the blame with the government schools, the entertainment industry (related to the media but somewhat seperate) and the socialists who pushed things down this road to hell we are now pretty much stuck on.

    A hundred years ago the average American was a hell of a lot more educated than his modern descendent, such that most people would have seen right through the idiocy and emotional based 'policies' that drive modern political discourse. Which is why a determined campaign was waged to dumb people down.

    Ideas that can't be expressed in a paragraph (or better a bumber sticker) have no chance of going anywhere in these days of two minute TV news stories that have to fit in the idea, the other party objecting to it and the network twit pontificating about it. And ideas that by all rights should be dead issues because they are so self evidently bogus are taken seriously because politicians can rely on 90% of the viewers being too ignorant to know better and that under no condition will the TV dude call them out on saying something retarded.

    So where does it end? Can it be reversed? Doubt it. It will end, as Amb. Kosh said, "In fire."

    --
    Democrat delenda est
    1. Re:Not just the media's fault by Watson+Ladd · · Score: 1

      Politics has always been emotional. Remember the "Daisy" ad? Or how about the Red Scare? Or how about slavery debates? This isn't a recent phenomenon. It's just that nukes are involved now.

      --
      Inventions have long since reached their limit, and I see no hope for further development.-- Frontinus, 1st cent. AD
    2. Re:Not just the media's fault by dinther · · Score: 2

      So get educated you dumbasses and please do read a book about democracy. The stupid "security" measures in the USA is rubbing off on all countries arpound the world because airlines that fly into your country are required to comply. As a result from 1 March we in New Zealand can not board an international aircraft with more than 100 ml of contact lens liquid! We know it bullshit, you know it's bullshit yet we still do it. God this pisses me off so much is everybody in the world totally nuts. To close with the wonderfull words "Shit happens" and there ain't nothing you can do about it.

    3. Re:Not just the media's fault by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A hundred years ago the average American was a hell of a lot more educated

      A hundred years ago, the average American was born in the back of some house, grew up helping on a farm, and if a cow didn't kick in his head, ran off to the city to work in a soot-belching factory and die of black lung. One hundred years ago, half of the Americans were the wrong gender to vote. 100 years ago, the average person had their wives and children slaughtered by the government or by hired militias firing into their tents for daring to refuse to work. A century ago some miners were paid in scrip good only at the company store.

      No, I think you have some ridiculously idealized vision of the beginning of the 20th century, based on some fantasy spun by what was then the upper crust of society, who treated the "average" American as a mutt to kick around.

  31. Way To Go Zonk! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Let's GET IT ON!

    . . .

  32. Republicans are genius marketers by wass · · Score: 1

    That's the sad thing about Democrats versus Republicans. Republicans are AMAZING marketers, they have brilliant ways to convince the people their plans are the best. If they would only put this effort and briliance to work bettering the country instead of just working the media, trying to get re-elected, and giving kickbacks and crony positions to their supporters, we as a nation and as a planet would be in much better shape.

    Democrats suck at marketing, and the 2004 campaign is perfect example of that. Republican marketers managed to turn a US war hero, Kerry, into a swiftboated lame coward, while the draft-dodging Texas Air Guard guy who went AWOL was turned into a war hero. Hell, there is no way any civilized country would have re-elected George Bush, after all his miserable failures, yet the Republicans convinced the US public that he was the better candidate.

    It's really too bad that Republicans don't put this effort into making decent policies or solving national or global problems.

    --

    make world, not war

  33. i give you by dlt074 · · Score: 1

    "what did Bush know and when did he know it?!"

  34. not a new problem by trb · · Score: 4, Insightful
    This is, unfortunately, not a new problem. Israel addresses the problem in a more sensible way than the USA does. I see that other references to Israel in this thread are mostly anti-Israel jingoism (so far) but I won't address that.

    Israel's approach is borne of being surrounded by enemies and inundated by non-friends. They deal with it by having intelligent people working in their security forces, including at the airport. They frisk you (usually with a metal detector wand) when you enter any gathering place - restaurant, bus station, theater, museum, post office, etc. They use profiling, political correctness be damned. Their security practices seem intelligent - you don't have to take off your shoes when you run their usual airport security gauntlet, and a grandmother traveling with her family isn't going to get run through the same ringer as a suspicious young person.

    Israel deals with real terror threats every day. They defuse real attacks every day. Maybe they know what they're doing.

    1. Re:not a new problem by tom's+a-cold · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Israel deals with real terror threats every day.
      Time for some definitions. Were the Fenians a "real terror threat?" And how about the French Resistance? Or the Algerians driving out the French? How about the ANC?

      I have met people who have been on the receiving end of the attentions of the "intelligent" Israeli security forces and those of the equally intelligent and famously well-run Israeli military. I never want to see the US go down that road. Me, I'm still hoping Abu Ghraib and uncounted civilian casualties are aberrations, not the new norm, for Americans.

      "Maybe they know what they're doing." Yeah, and that's why they're at peace with their neighbors. Or maybe there would be peace if only every single person in the Middle East except the Israelis weren't such evil, vengeful fanatics, right?

      A less contorted explanation is that the same propaganda and manipulation that keeps corrupt right-wing thugs in power in Israel is also being market-tested here by our own home-grown force-worshipping greedheads. Because fear is useful in forcing compliance, and fearful people are more likely to acquiesce in brutality.

      So I really don't care how the Israelis do airport security, anymore than I want pointers from them on bullozing houses or gunning down stone-throwing kids. It's justice that I want to see done. The Israelis who do that, I'm willing to learn from. But to see heavy-handed police-state tactics, there's no need to travel that far. More's the pity.

      --
      Get your teeth into a small slice: the cake of liberty
    2. Re:not a new problem by sheldon · · Score: 2, Interesting

      There was a story a few years ago of a woman who was found trying to carry a bomb onto a plane. The woman was pregnant, she was alone, and she was trying to travel to a country where she did not have any family. Israeli security identified this during their brief questioning and thought it very odd. So they pulled her aside and did a thorough search of her luggage and found a bomb.

      The woman didn't know there was a bomb. She was simply offered a sum of money to carry a bag.

      Fortunately, Israel is smarter than most idiots and doesn't do racial profiling, but rather intelligent profiling. Questioning, looking for things which don't make sense, looking for behaviors which reveal nervousness or deceptiveness, etc.

      Consider how easy it would be to con a grandmother traveling with her family. Not hard at all... you've won a trip for your whole family, but since we represent Supreme Luggage, you must use our bags. So much for your "intelligent" racial profiling.

      All you are really doing is justifying racism.

    3. Re:not a new problem by Ihlosi · · Score: 1
      They deal with it by having intelligent people working in their security forces, including at the airport.



      I assume that intelligence is only one factor. Proper training (which includes training them to use their brain, not just robotically follow some procedure) and paying them significantly above minimum wage should also be factors.

    4. Re:not a new problem by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Racial profiling works when used properly, and does not work when misused. In the end, it's nothing more than applied statistics. Whether it is ethically wrong or not is another issue.

    5. Re:not a new problem by sheldon · · Score: 1

      Racial profiling works when used properly, and does not work when misused. In the end, it's nothing more than applied statistics. Whether it is ethically wrong or not is another issue.


      Where's the statistics to back up your claim?
    6. Re:not a new problem by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Burned as not politically correct, most likely.

  35. Norway???? the orange dotted line on the right... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Exactly. You don't see terrorist bombings in Norway, because Norway isn't sticking their collective noses in other peoples' business.

    Forget NORWAY! :-)

    (kenya believe it?)

  36. *whoosh* by benhocking · · Score: 3, Informative
    --
    Ben Hocking
    Need a professional organizer?
    1. Re:*whoosh* by LunaticTippy · · Score: 1

      What, a guy can't crack a subgenius joke about fnord anymore? That's pretty uptight. I used to think discordians were cool, too.

      --
      Man, you really need that seminar!
  37. Can a people remain free and be 'protected'? by Initi · · Score: 4, Insightful

    There has arisen a contention between civil liberties and 'homeland security' (a term i loath) precisely because a people cannot remain free and 'protected'. Freedom requires that the coercive and intrusive capabilities of authority are limited and restrained; 'protection' requires that they are not. Can these two interests be balanced appropriately?

    I, for one, believe not. Perhaps for this reason that free people seem reflexively aggressive in foreign relation (US and GBR for example); the inability to sufficiently balance these two interests lends itself to the use of external direct force. As a free people desire that their authorities protect their interests and shield them from harm (via police, fire and rescue squads, ambulance services, and yes military) they will only allow so much intrusion upon their liberties (civil rights and liberties, privacy, dignity, &c). In order to achieve its mandate to 'protect' the citizenry the authority applies direct, sometimes extreme, force upon the external threat (be it a criminal, foreign power, bomb chucking anarchist, &c).

    Unfortunately, authorities in the US have evidently determined that we have enough of neither. Rights, liberties, and simple human dignity is being lost while simultaneously a rather large and significant amount of external force is being applied.

    1. Re:Can a people remain free and be 'protected'? by ZorroXXX · · Score: 1

      Can a people remain free and be 'protected'?

      "If you want total security, go to prison. There you're fed, clothed, given medical care and so on. The only thing lacking... is freedom."
      -- Dwight D. Eisenhower

      --
      When you are sure of something, you probably are wrong (search for "Unskilled and Unaware of It").
  38. Ever wonder? by s31523 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I was thinking about this the other day as I set up a zombie PC as a honeypot:
    I wonder if the various agencies do this for would be terrorists? Here on US soil, even over in the big sandbox. I guess the more appropriate term would be sting, but the concept is the same. Setup a weapons depot, or something else the terrorists are interested in and wait for them to come get it, and bust their ass. Remember the old scam where cops sent people with outstanding warrants notices that they won a boar or something, then busted them? I think we need to get creative, and start to be a little more proactive.

  39. Reasons and rationales by benhocking · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Ceasing interference with their politics in order to stop terrorism is a bad idea. It proves that terrorism is an effective tool against the US. (See also, Barbary Pirates.)

    Ceasing interference with their politics because its the right thing to do is a great idea.

    Convincing anyone that our reasons are the latter is an impossible idea. :)

    Granted, I've given no solution here. Perhaps the best solution is to cease interference with their politics (for the right reason of course), but if they take this as a sign that terrorism is a good idea in the future we thoroughly disabuse them of this idea at that time - while maintaining (due) vigilance against it in the present, of course. (Note: due vigilance does not include preventing fluids on flights!)

    --
    Ben Hocking
    Need a professional organizer?
    1. Re:Reasons and rationales by The+One+and+Only · · Score: 1

      The evil thing to do would be to ruthlessly destroy their entire civilization in retaliation before drawing back and recognizing we were wrong and would leave them alone from them on. Of course, that would only inspire more retaliation. So we do the insidious thing and become cultural imperialists.

      --
      In Repressive Burma, it's not just your connection that dies. slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=314547&cid=20819199
  40. Well by kitsunewarlock · · Score: 1

    This is mostly in response to all the other posts...but we should just get our current leaders...declare that they may not elect new officials (otherwise the armies would just be reclassified as leaders), given boards with nails in them and Nebraska, gated off and striped of civilians, vehicles, communication devices and weapons. Battle royale. By leaders, this includes anyone holding 1,000-5,000 year old grudges, and people taking orders from invisible men in the sky (including Tom Cruise). Of course I am, as a Californian, competent in my leader's ability to beat the ever loving sh*t out of yours. Arnold and Reagan. Who is still our governor. And totally not dead. Reagan lives! ((Sorry, Shortpacked! reference).

    --
    Ginga no Rekshiya Mata Each page.
  41. ouch by towsonu2003 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Approaching security with "common sense" in a racist, sexist and capitalist society is dangerous at best...

    1. Re:ouch by peektwice · · Score: 1

      I do not see how one equates racism, sexism, and capitalism. Racism, and sexism are despicable. Capitalism, in its purest form is the most egalitarian of ideals. Compete on merit, or perish. Perhaps you are speaking of litigation driven, liability mitigating, political lobbying, unfair advantage seeking, quasi-capitalism that is the state of business today.

      --
      Other than this text, there is no discernible information contained in this sig.
    2. Re:ouch by ResidntGeek · · Score: 1

      Nobody equated them. towsonu2003 listed them, without indicating any relation between them.

      --
      ResidntGeek
    3. Re:ouch by peektwice · · Score: 1

      Approaching security with "common sense" in a racist, sexist and capitalist society is dangerous at best...
      Read it again. towsonu2003 implies equivalence by deriding a lack of common sense in describing society as racist, sexist, and capitalist. So... racism and sexism lack common sense, but capitalism doesn't? Why mention it in the same statement? Your argument doesn't hold water, unless you're using the Steve Martin form of the English language. "Can I mambo dogface in the banana patch?"

      --
      Other than this text, there is no discernible information contained in this sig.
    4. Re:ouch by towsonu2003 · · Score: 1
      Indeed, I implied a relation between them, but did not equate them. The relation is very easy to understand: hegemony.


      But for the class-less (a.k.a. ignorant of basic Marxist ideas) American mind that is my audience, I should have stated my caution as follows:


      "Common sense" is very dangerous when applied to security in a society that is plagued with inequalities based on gender, race, and class...


      Or let me put it like this: when applied to security, your average "common sense" gives you the concept of "Driving While Black"...

    5. Re:ouch by peektwice · · Score: 1

      Now, now, let's not insult each other. We Americans understand Marxist "ideals". We also understand that central control and distribution of wealth doesn't work. Progressive taxation should be described more as oppressive taxation. Socialist ideals lead to rampant mediocrity. No one gets left behind, and no one has any motivation to succeed either. Although you see Marxism as a cure for what you view as hegemony, I do not. Marxism cannot be achieved without some form of hegemony, for example, powerful party leaders forcing their ideals on a defenseless populace in order to retain that power. We are not ignorant of Marxism, we have just learned from its failures already.

      Back on the original topic, I agree that the current approach to homeland security is inept, and as TFA states is primarily driven by cover-my-ass motives. Common sense is not being used. Common sense doesn't allow an 80 year old grandmother to get a special search from someone who is "just following the procedures". Common sense doesn't allow some stupid district attorney or police chief in Boston to file charges against someone for their own overblown reaction to a non-event.

      --
      Other than this text, there is no discernible information contained in this sig.
    6. Re:ouch by towsonu2003 · · Score: 1

      We Americans understand Marxist "ideals".
      I said Marxist ideas (i.e. the class dynamics)

      We are not ignorant of Marxism, we have just learned from its failures already.
      This part will be very offtopic but, what you mean is "we observed how some people practiced Socialism, we witnessed the ones who screwed up by going imperialist, and as for the rest, we are currently doing our best to crush them into pieces via embargoes and secret and open plots"...

      Common sense is not being used.
      What I am saying is: if you use "common sense" in such a society for security, you will have such new concepts like "Flying while Muslim", "Flying while Muslim", "Flying while Woman", "Flying while Black", "Flying while Poor", "Flying while Foreigner" etc in your hands...
    7. Re:ouch by The+One+and+Only · · Score: 1

      ignorant of basic Marxist ideas

      I'm not up on my Parmenides either. That's because I don't bother studying ideas that don't usefully describe the real world. (Okay, I've studied the history of philosophy well enough to have some understanding of both Parmenides and Marx, but I wouldn't say I really care.)

      --
      In Repressive Burma, it's not just your connection that dies. slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=314547&cid=20819199
    8. Re:ouch by 0x0000 · · Score: 1

      Compete on merit, or perish.

      Sounds like "meritism" to me. Persons are discriminated against on the basis of merit. How is that any better [or worse] than e.g. racism or sexism? Is there some way this "merit" you talk about can be accrued? Is it not just as inherent to the individual as are race and gender?

      Merit is relative - a value judgement. Until you develop an Objective measure of Merit, the definition of Capitalism you gave is just a rewording of "Survival of the fittest". It trivially leads to counter intuitive results: If it survived, it is the fittest.

      The problem with Capitalism is a scoping problem - it can work, provided all agree that it is Good and Right and that it Works. Just as Apartheid or the Third Reich could be said to "work" [i.e. it "survivied" so it had to be the "fittest" - at least, within a certain analytical scope]. Note that both Apartheid and the Third Reich were notably sexist and racist. Since those sorts of systems operate on a severely constrained World View, and within severe temporal limits, it seems natural that they would also adopt the [short-term] sort of pseudo-capitalism that you refer to

      --
      "The Internet is made of cats."
  42. The 'they hate us for our freedom' gambit by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1

    Interfering with their politics? More like daring to a non-Islamic free society.

    Yeah, right. Sure there are those opposed to Western-style governments, just as many in the west are opposed to Islamic governments anywhere. That alone does not make terrorists go after you. You can easily tell because there are non-Islamic free societies which have zero problems with Islamic terrorists.

    Did you notice that even Bush lap-dog John Howard was saying it was Australia's foreign policy, their actions, which caused them to become a target? He's saying that they should have intervened in E.Timor anyway, that they shouldn't change their values to accomodate terrorists, and that's fine, he's still admiting it was interference that was the proximate cause. Or was Australia not a free society before 1999?

    Also, let me quote Mr. Howard again:

    "Those who assert that through some calibration of our foreign policy we can buy immunity from terrorist attacks advance a proposition which is both morally flawed and factually wrong."

    Yes, that's trivially false, you can never buy "immunity". Yet the implied opposite argument is that there are no cases where calibrating ones foreign policy to take into account the reaction of those who are directly affected by that policy would prevent terrorist attacks. This is also trivially false. It is morally flawed and factually wrong to imply that at no point can your foreign policy legitimately inspire people to hate you when otherwise they would not, or that you should never take this into consideration when making policy.

    Case in point: Over the next couple decades, there are going to be a lot of Iraqi, especially Sunni, kids who grow up hating the United States, and it sure as fuck won't be for our freedom. Unless "freedom" means "bomb that killed my family" or "soldier who raped my sister". So hypothetically lets say there is a terrorist attack on the U.S. performed by Iraqis. Would you then argue that the decision to invade Iraq had nothing to do with that act, that had we not invaded the U.S. that attack would have happened anyway?

    This is why I can't stand the "they hate us for our freedom" gambit. It denies cause and effect. It denies that anyone else's actions could be in any way inspired by your own. It denies the possibility to actually rectify the underlying causes.

    It would be as non-sensical as bin Laden claiming that the West hates him solely because he is such a devout muslim. He says it though, and there are surely people gullible enough to believe it and join him, just like the ones who buy "they hate us for our freedom". And thus the cycle of violence continues.

    --

    The enemies of Democracy are
  43. the trust, responsibility.... and fear of failure by recharged95 · · Score: 1
    "We've scared ourselves half to death and thus practically demand that those entrusted with keeping us safe go to absurd extremes to keep from being scapegoated should something go wrong. ... And something will go wrong. That part of the equation is not irrational."

    Reasons why DHS (a.k.a. you) is in this situation:

    Trust Factor: Why? because I don't trust you that you'll keep me safe. Cause I don't believe your methods of safety. Cause I'm lazy to analyze the problems myself (why I pay taxes). Cause I don't even know you.

    Responsibilty factor: Since I pay taxes and my taxes represent my interest, and if I empower you to carry out my interests--YOU are responsible. You can't avoid it no matter how much you try (people tend torwards laziness due to conflicting interests). And you do try, hence causing the trust factor issue.

    Fear of Failure factor: Since security in DHS is based on taxes, hence a economic driven system, if you (DHS) are held responsible and a failure occurs (a terrorist act), then guess what, I will blame you. Therefore you lose your job or lose funding. Hence creating a fear of failure from being solely responsible.

    Remove the fear of failure factor (on both sides), enforce responsibility and make the people aware of the risks and costs, then you'll gain the trust of the people and the system will work. Just like our postal system... ;)

  44. A better banner by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Here is a better campaign slogan: "Bringing our troops home takes courage. Sending our sons and daughters to die in a foreign land because of our irrational fear of terrorism at home is the work of cowards."

  45. the media only sells them what they want by misanthrope101 · · Score: 0, Troll
    No, the people are the reason behind CYA security, and the media only reflects that. People want the illusion of safety, and they get pissy if you point out that they're being irrational. The flu kills almost 7 times more Americans per year than were killed on 9/11 but you get treated like a barbarian for pointing that out, or like a simpleton for suggesting that our financial outlays should be proportional to the risk. Looking at the flu alone, and even disregarding TB, AIDS, and other disease, terrorism could never compete mortality-wise.

    We could spend 1/10 as much as we're spending on the GWOT on child nutrition instead and save more American lives than the GWOT is protecting, and that's even granting the debatable conclusion that the GWOT is actually protecting, not endangering, lives. But 9/11 made Americans feel vulnerable and queasy, and that trumps child nutrition, public sanitation, immunizations for the poor, or any other project that could help a far greater number of Americans. Yes, the media feeds into this, the same way circuses feed into our love of circuses. But it isn't as if the population is intelligent and cool-headed and the media is swooping in to dumb us down. We get the media we choose. If people were reading the Economist and Harper's instead of People and TV Guide we still wouldn't have a perfect world, but it would reflect a more intelligent and rational citizenry.

  46. stop-loss, anyone? by misanthrope101 · · Score: 0
    Everyone in the service volunteered--for a stated term of service. The "volunteer" status of many military members today is analogous to me buying a car from you and then deciding after the deal that the money I paid was for all of your cars, and you having nothing to say about it. The military is clearly, obviously, unambiguously changing the terms of the contract after the vulunteered-for term of service is over. People are serving time for which they did NOT volunteer.

    Enlistment isn't for life, and you damned will know it. It's for a stated, defined term of service, and anything past that is a unilateral contract change, that though possibly legal, is not the same thing as "they volunteered!" The government gets away with it because they're the government, and you damned well know that too. What you're doing is saying "they volunteered! I have no sympathy!" while neglecting to mention that you've reserved the option of redefining the words however you want. That's the same way the government redefined terms like unemployment, civil war, deficit, WMD, and it's a fundamentally dishonest approach to your subject. Enlisting in the military doesn't mean they get to keep you forever and ever and still use the term "all-volunteer force."

    1. Re:stop-loss, anyone? by silentounce · · Score: 1

      The paperwork that you sign when you enlist CLEARLY STATES the stop-loss policy. It's not hidden in fine print, it's right there. If I remember correctly it even stands out because of bullet points. I even had my recruiter mention it to me. People are serving time for which they DID volunteer. Why don't you look up the enlistment documents and take a read. The people that bitch about stop loss are cowards.

      --
      There are many tongues to talk, and but few heads to think. -Victor Hugo
  47. "they hate us because we're free" by misanthrope101 · · Score: 0
    Yes, but first-world countries, particularly the USA, get a blank slate every 10 seconds or so. It doesn't matter if we bombed you last week or overthrew a democracy and installed a dictator--if you hate us, it must because we're so virtuous. Hence, "They hate us because we're free!" There are religious fundamentalists who no doubt detest our freedoms, but it's obvious that us killing their people, and giving money and support to dictators who kill their people, might just be a teensy-weensy factor in why they dislike us.

    But contemplating that line of thinking involvees dwelling on morally questionable decisions made by Presidents we don't like to think morally complex thoughts about (at least not in relation to poor brown people who should be thankful we gave them Coca-Cola and jobs making our Nikes) so we stick with the morally superior answer that they hate us because we're too kind and free and virtuous. It's vanity plus denial plus laziness that has led us to this conclusion.

  48. 2nd scenario seems better ... by hany · · Score: 1

    Your second scenario seems better. Better for $PRESIDENT and $EXECUTIVE_BRANCH_POLITICIANS.

    Because in such case they successfully eliminated a lot of power from the people and can do as they please. For example even do some terrorist attack themselves from time to time to for example "remind the people" as to why it is important to fight agains terrorism by all means available etc.

    Of course quite a lot of people alredy were thinking abount such scenario so as to not post too long a list I pick examples from the "entertaning pool": 1984, Animal farm, Fahrenheit 451, Brazil, Æon Flux, Enemy of the state, ...

    --
    hany
  49. Norwegian Nose(s) In Afghanistan/Iraq by andersh · · Score: 2, Informative

    Okay, I dont know where you get your information. But Norway has had troops in both Afghanistan and Iraq. Just these last weeks Norway was asked by the US/NATO to contribute more troops to Afghanistan. So we are sending even more special forces units. Not to mention our F-16s were flying missions down there. And I believe our Royal Norwegian navy is still part of related NATO missions in the Med.

    No, we have not had bombings in Norway yet. However we have had attacks on the only Synagogue in Oslo by Pakistani militants. We have had attacks on our Jewish populace by Arab immigrants. And we have had the pleasure of hosting terrorists from North Africa that were involved in other European bomb attacks. If those people had not been arrested thanks to our Secret Service we might just have had our 9/11. Who knows.

    Regardless, our nose is very much indeed in other peoples business.
    We are active in Israel/Palestine, Sri Lanka, Guatemala etc. Remember the Oslo agreement that led to the Camp David signatures? Not loved by the Arab world. In Sri Lanka they burn our flags and effigy's of our Ambassador because we are trying to create peace. They do not want peace or our peacekeeping observer corps (troops). Did I mention the Muslims on Sri Lanka?

    So you see there any number of reasons why Norway could be attacked.

  50. Your algorithms have major security flaw by unity100 · · Score: 1

    Both your algorithms work until a more oppressive/aggressive party/individual gains power. Then they immediately turn to something another. If oppressive/aggressive parties/individuals are already in power when the program is first executed, it gets an immediate Zero day exploit : 1. $PRESIDENT and $EXECUTIVE_BRANCH_POLITICIANS say "Terrorist threat is continually on the rise" /* $PRESIDENT and $EXECUTIVE_BRANCH_POLITICIANS doing anything about terrorist attack does not matter, as it is commented out. Its just for novelty */ 2. $PRESIDENT and $EXECUTIVE_BRANCH_POLITICIANS take more 'measures' that increasingly wrest power to their parties, curiously this always benefits their supporters to the extreme. 3. Terrorist attack happens OR Terrorist attack doesnt happen 4. People now CANT howl that $PRESIDENT and $EXECUTIVE_BRANCH_POLITICIANS only want to take away people's rights and institute fascism, because this counts as spreading dissidence and supporting terrorism. 5. This program is no longer necessary or relevant. This program will SERF-terminate immediately.

  51. Taking up all the slack by benhocking · · Score: 1

    The problem is that you're taking up all the slack. I'd like to have some, too.

    --
    Ben Hocking
    Need a professional organizer?
  52. CYA security in Boston by tgibbs · · Score: 1

    The first step is to demand that public officials accept responsibility for CYA blunders.

    Boston still has yet to do this, with the mayor and other public officials continuing to point the finger at Turner Broadcasting and the poor buys who put up the LiteBrite ads (who are still in legal trouble) and referring to the ads that initiated the hysteria as "hoax bombs." Surely there was somebody in the police force or bomb squad who was smart enough to say, "Dudes, chill out. Even if a terrorist was stupid enough to put lights on his bomb, these things aren't even close to big enough to hurt a bridge or a building even if they were completely made of explosives." But the City of Boston went on to waste millions of dollars, shut down the city, and decrease the chance the people will take it seriously if there ever is a real attack.

    Let's see some public officials stand up and take responsibility, instead of trying to cast blame on the people who put up the signs--who actually did us a big favor by revealing how unprepared Boston is to recognize a real threat.

  53. FWIW by nathan+s · · Score: 1

    A parent can't "force" their kid into the military, no, but parents can (and do) give their kids options which essentially amount to "stay here and I'll make your life a living hell and your only other option is to join the military" - happened to my sister.

  54. The pump was primed by DMCBOSTON · · Score: 1

    The Boston problem became worse because two 'real' (actually fake, but made to look real) pipe bombs were found that day. One was planted by a disgruntled employee at Tufts (NE Med Ctr). So, when a bunch of vaguely claymore shaped things started to get noticed flipping the bird using LEDs (rather than blinking numbers, I guess), especially at 'strategic locations', well, the inevitable happened. I won't fault the response, at the time it just all seemed a little odd.

    1. Re:The pump was primed by tgibbs · · Score: 1

      The Boston problem became worse because two 'real' (actually fake, but made to look real) pipe bombs were found that day. One was planted by a disgruntled employee at Tufts (NE Med Ctr). So, when a bunch of vaguely claymore shaped things started to get noticed flipping the bird using LEDs (rather than blinking numbers, I guess), especially at 'strategic locations', well, the inevitable happened. I won't fault the response, at the time it just all seemed a little


      I don't see how finding a couple of fake pipe bombs excuses anybody from thinking that "vaguely claymore shaped things" (by which I presume you mean "flat", the only resemblance that I can detect) posed a threat to buildings and bridges. Even a real claymore mine wouldn't hurt a building or bridge, and up there it wouldn't pose much threat to people, either. Finding the (fake) pipe bombs only compounds the stupidity. Even if by some contorted train of thought you could convince yourself that a terrorist would festoon his bombs with blinking lights and put them where they couldn't possibly hurt anything, you now have to come up with some sort of rationalization for why he would do that for some bombs, and for others use plain vanilla pipe bombs. Anybody engaging in this kind of irrational thinking does not belong in a position of responsibility, where (in a genuine threat) rapid decisions about disposition of resources will need to be made on a rational basis, rather than from unreasoning hysteria.