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BitTorrent Legit Service Launches

The launch of the BitTorrent Entertainment Network came out today; there's the AP write-up, which is decent enough but the interview with Bram about it is more interesting. Tangentially, the the education of lawmakers on video DRM is an interesting countweight to all this.

26 of 158 comments (clear)

  1. New BT network is proprietary, apparently by writertype · · Score: 3, Interesting
    Disclaimer: I'm pimping my own story on PC Magazine.

    I'd be interested to hear what people think of the new BitTorrent DNA 2.0, which apparently uses QOS to dial itself down in the presence of VOIP, etc. But it also apparently won't be open-sourced, and will be proprietary to the Mainline client.

    And I'm not a big fan of all the snarky comments, myself.

  2. There wasn't legitimate bittorrent before? by i+kan+reed · · Score: 3, Informative

    A lot of linux distros distribute ISOs via bit torrent. I'm not a lawyer, but I'm pretty sure that's legal under the GPL. As for non-GPL stuff, what about legaltorrents.com? Legal uses of bit-torrent aren't new.

    1. Re:There wasn't legitimate bittorrent before? by KDR_11k · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Some of those file downloading places (File Front, I think) use torrents, too, as does the TAS Videos website. Bittorrent has become a normal download system and a substitute for FTP and HTTP downloads, although it's not as widely used yet. Some MMOs even use torrents for distributing patches AFAIK.

      I think the difference is that this is an "official" Bittorrent service (i.e. by the guy who invented it although that may not count for much considering the openness of the system) and that it sells stuff that gets distributed over BT instead of merely offering free downloads.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    2. Re:There wasn't legitimate bittorrent before? by stubear · · Score: 3, Funny

      "Copyrights are not a legitimate property right."

      That's funny. There's this 200+ year old document that people like you accuse President Bush of trashing yet you seem toconveniently forget that intellectual property rights were included even before amendments were proposed. There are even older documents in Europe which grant intellectual property rights as well. Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with these before making such a bold claim that is simply not true. You may not like them but it doesn't make them illegitimate. I don't like that I can't punch people like you in the face, perhaps I can ignore that law and claim it's an illegitimate restraint of human nature and primal urges to beat the crap out of the weaker of the species.

    3. Re:There wasn't legitimate bittorrent before? by BlazeMiskulin · · Score: 3, Informative

      Article I
      Section. 8.

      The Congress shall have Power to... ...promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;


      i.e., "Intellectual Property"
    4. Re:There wasn't legitimate bittorrent before? by Digital+Vomit · · Score: 3, Informative

      There's this 200+ year old document that people like you accuse President Bush of trashing yet you seem toconveniently forget that intellectual property rights were included even before amendments were proposed.

      There's a world of difference between what "intellectual property" means in that 200+ year old document and what "intellectual property" means today.

      --
      Modern copyright is theft of culture from everyone and it retards the progress of the useful arts and sciences.
    5. Re:There wasn't legitimate bittorrent before? by JesseMcDonald · · Score: 5, Interesting

      ...you seem toconveniently [sic] forget that intellectual property rights were included even before amendments were proposed.

      Perhaps you stop and reread the Constitution before making such a sloppy argument. The Constitution allows Congress "To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries". Note that Congress isn't required to enact copyrights and patents; it merely has the ability to do so under the Constitution, with a very specific purpose: promoting "the Progress of Science and useful Arts". Copyrights and patents, in other words, are an attempt at social engineering, one which Congress can enact or withdraw at its leisure. They are also transient ("for limited times") whereas real property rights are permanent, passing from one generation to the next until the property is finally consumed or abandoned by its owner -- even presuming such ever occurs.

      In contract, regular property rights are barely mentioned in the Constitution, because they were already thoroughly established in the Common Law; real property rights formed a background so obvious to the Constitution's authors that they saw no need to make them explicit; copyrights and patents had to be mentioned precisely because they were not part of that background. Congress can revoke them on a whim because they exist purely by Congressional decree. There are some (badly worded and poorly interpreted) clauses which Congress can abuse to violate traditional property rights under very specific circumstances, but as such rights do not originate with Congress it would take more than a simple decree to eliminate them entirely. (It would probably take a major Constitutional amendment, a change in the very nature of the government itself.)

      --
      "The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat
  3. WMP only??? by bugbeak · · Score: 2, Interesting

    From TFA:
    BitTorrent's content is protected by Windows Media DRM and will only play back using Windows Media Player.

    Is there a DRM alternative that is suitable on all platforms?

    1. Re:WMP only??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Until they fix the DRM problem, there's always this alternative: http://thepiratebay.org/.

    2. Re:WMP only??? by FredDC · · Score: 2, Informative

      IANAL, but where I live, Belgium, there is a law against such a practice. It is illegal to sell things which need another specific thing to be used. I think I'm gonna take a deeper look into this and perhaps contact some consumer groups because according to me DRM implemted like that is illegal over here... And most likely in other places as well.

      --
      09 f9 11 02 9d 74 e3 5b d8 41 56 c5 63
    3. Re:WMP only??? by minginqunt · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Oh Noes! Against the law?

      One should always obey the law, no matter how idiotic, obscene, corrupt and morally bankrupt, I presume?

      Or not.

  4. ToS by Kelz · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Somewhat crippling ToS from the site (you must download and watch movies/TV shows before 30 days, can only watch it for 24 hours after first playing); and the kicker: $3.99 for rentals. Imo at least the charge should be half that. There is no distibution cost other than keeping the tracker/site up, and you can only watch it for a day! If I watched even 3 movies a month, it'd cost less to just go through netflix, and I could keep them as long as I wanted.

    However, it is still good to see BT somewhat more in the public eye. Maybe it'll catch on and more people will realize that they're being ripped off.

  5. So I watched the Oscars last night... by radarsat1 · · Score: 5, Informative
    So I watched a few parts of the Oscars last night. I always find it a bit frustrating, because I don't ever find the time to go see many new movies in the theater, so when the Oscars roll around they are always talking about tons of movies I haven't seen yet. On the other hand, it makes me write down a few titles so I can plan on looking them up later.

    When I saw this announcement, I went to the site and saw they they had a few movies I wanted to see. Not such a bad selection, and even some free stuff! Hell I'd pay for it if its a reasonable price, I thought.

    I clicked on a movie to see how much it would cost to download and watch. $3.99 to "Rent". Oh shit, I thought to myself. Rent. That means, DRM. I looked at the bottom of the page:

    Usage Rights
    You may watch this on one computer. You have 30 days from the transaction to download the file and 24 hours to watch it after you first click play. See full terms of service.

    System Requirements
    It looks like your system doesn't meet the Minimum System Requirements. You can still purchase this title here, but please note that you may only watch it on a Windows XP computer meeting the requirements.


    Well. Funny, I don't USE windows. Hm, guess I'm not part of their target demographic. Oh well, I'll just head over to isohunt then, or walk down to the movie store and get something older. I'm a little disappointed, but .. not really surprised.
    1. Re:So I watched the Oscars last night... by KenSeymour · · Score: 2

      I had two points in my post. One was countering the idea that you couldn't rent the
      movies that are winning Oscars.

      The second point is why would I care about watching movies on a computer. Computers
      are more expensive than DVD players. My computer is not in my living room.

      Meanwhile, the average /.'er is bashing a for pay movie download service because they
      only support Windows. Outside of /., how many people are worried about this?
      How many people go down to the video rental place to rent a movie or sign up for NetFlix
      or use video on demand?
      Lots and lots of people.

      How many people want to watch movies on their computer? A relatively small number.
      How many of them have a problem with using either an Apple based solution or a Windows-only solution ?
      An even smaller number of people.

      Perhaps you are looking for a solution to a problem most people don't have.

      --
      "We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them." -- Albert Einstein
    2. Re:So I watched the Oscars last night... by Random+Destruction · · Score: 3, Informative

      How many people want to watch movies on their computer? A relatively small number.

      How many of customers of this service want to watch movies on their computer? Pretty safe bet to say 100%.

      How many of them have a problem with using either an Apple based solution or a Windows-only solution?

      Macs have about 4% market share overall, linux around 3%. (from some quick googling). Though I'd say its a safe bet that the kind of people who want to watch movies on their computers are more likely to be running osx/linux (also consider setups like mythTV boxes). So maybe 10% of their possible market? more?

      Either way, the issue isn't quite as insignificant as you tried to make it seem.
      --
      :x
  6. Limited selection? by Alaria+Phrozen · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I don't see any: Stargate (SG-1 or Atlantis), House M.D., the only Star Trek is movie 7,no American Idol episodes..

    So when can I buy the crap I actually want?

    1. Re:Limited selection? by Cheapy · · Score: 3, Funny

      You actually want American Idol?

      Consider it a service for them not having it!

      --
      Would you kindly mod me +1 insightful?
  7. I predict dissapointment by Cereal+Box · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I can see it now... $4 to rent a reduced-quality movie for 24 hours, with DRM. Geeks everywhere will demand the studio masters to be downloadable without DRM for a nickel a pop (and even that may be too costly for some).

    1. Re:I predict dissapointment by babyrat · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Without either confirming or denying my geekiness...Why would you predict anything less than disappointment?

      Without having tried the service, I'm guessing that for the same amount of money ($4) and less time, I could drive (or bike) to the video store, rent a DVD and get home and be watching it in less time than it would take to download - if this was a new release I would have 48 hours to watch - if it was not a new release I would have a week to watch it.

      Oh yeah - I could watch it on any TV to which I could hook up a $30 DVD player.

      If I watched 5 movies per month, a blockbuster online subscription would be much cheaper and allow me to watch many more movies for the same effort (pointing and clicking) and would not require my to have a broadband internet access at my house (which I do have, but many don't).

      I highly doubt that the quality of the downloadable movies is higher than that of a DVD, and I would expect that it is actually inferior to the quality of a DVD.

      I am supposed to be happy with paying the same amount of money for a lower quality less convenient option than I already have?

      I think a nickel a pop would be a bit too cheap for what they are offering, but I think that $1/download would probably still be too costly for what you get.

  8. Quality? by pyite69 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Are they distributing in high definition, or at least DVD quality? Or is this yet another "advancement" where all they do is lower the quality?

  9. Re:Teach a person how to fish... by multisync · · Score: 2, Insightful

    OHNOES!! Have you seen the usage requirements/restrictions?


    And, from this one:

    Oh Noes! Against the law?


    Is there a box I can un-check somewhere in the preferences so I don't have to look at messages that contain the phrase "oh noes?"
    --
    I don't care why you're posting AC
  10. Selling content in the modern world. by Kadin2048 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Realistically, how else do you propose to sell stuff over a P2P network?

    This comes up every time there's a thread about the new "legit" BitTorrent service. I don't think it's possible. If this service attracts enough attention, the DRM is going to be bypassed. I doubt it's even going to be that hard, because the nature of P2P services makes end-to-end DRM impossible. So not only do you have the inherent flaws in the DRM system you choose, but you also have an inherent incompatibility between the DRM (which makes every user's file different) and P2P distribution, which depends on many users wanting files that are bit-for-bit identical with each other.

    There's no good way to do both. They can layer on the encryption but it's nothing but turd polish; the data that's coming down the wire from the other clients has to be encrypted on a non-per-user basis (perhaps a per-file basis), and then the application of the per-user DRM needs to be done in the client. Which means the layer of encryption that presumably protected it in transit needs to be removed. So if you can play spot-the-key, and grab the per-file key as the client program decrypts it in preparation for applying the per-user DRM encryption, you can get a key that lets everyone decrypt the file.

    In short, you cannot sell content via a service like this. Not going to happen in the long run, I think. What you probably could do, is sell access to the network, where the value is in the subscription to the content and not in the content itself per se. (Of course the movie studios would hate that, since they want to think of each movie "copy" sold as a revenue source.)

    Looking forward, the future of services is to market the services and the access, rather than the content. Digitization and the resulting ease of copying makes it nearly impossible to sell pieces of information as distinct products, like aspirin tablets, in the same way that the content producers have grown used to. The game is up, it's just not going to work any more; they're fighting against inherent problems with DRM, inherent problems with P2P distribution, and inherent problems with the nonconservative nature of information.

    However, what you can sell, is the access to a large repository or service which lets you access a lot of information in an organized and reliable manner. That represents a value to the customer, above and beyond just getting ahold of the movies/books/articles/whatever themselves. If a customer just wants to watch a single movie, say Pirates of the Caribbean, they can just go download a pirated copy. They are always going to be able to go and download a pirated copy. As long as the studios and "legit" alternatives mess around with DRM, it is always going to be easier for them to go download a pirated copy. However, what the studios could sell, would be instantaneous access to all the films ever made by Hollywood in the past century. Doing that -- putting together the database, organizing everything, providing a method of distribution, etc. -- is a value that's separate from the movies themselves, and the organization and logistics aren't readily copied. That wouldn't even require DRM; it wouldn't be practical for an end-user to copy more than a tiny fraction of the available material, so there's no risk. It's like a cable company and your VCR: the amount of content you can tape is never going to compete with the amount of content that's being pushed down to you all the time (I'd need to have 600+ VCRs running continuously in order to capture what Comcast pushes to me). Without DRM, you can use P2P to distribute without layers of useless encryption. To monetize it, you sell access to the network (the network is managed by a central server that tells clients where seeds and other clients are -- you don't pay, it doesn't tell you).

    People don't want to buy content, they want to buy access to streams of content; they don't want to buy data, they want access to repositories of data that contain more stuff than t

    --
    "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
    1. Re:Selling content in the modern world. by edmicman · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I've been saying the same thing for some time now. The "winner" in this whole media ordeal in the coming years will be the person/company (Google?) that gives me access to ALL CONTENT when and how I want it, for a price. Imagine if all historical media content was as ubiquitous as television, or what the Internet is approaching to be. Part of the whole reason people collect DVDs, download torrents, DVR programs, is because they want the security of knowing that that content will be available whenever they want it. What if there was a monthly service, like your internet or cable (or maybe it becomes a part of that?) that in turn gives you the ability to watch/listen/whatever any sort of media content that exists. You "subscribe" to The World. All historical movies, television shows, music, from all publishers, available in one place all the time, ready for you to search and bring up whenever you want. Throw in current stuff, too. Albums aren't released in stores, they just show up in The Network, and you can listen when you want. You can watch the latest episode of "24" whenever you want. Throw in wifi access tied to your cars, so you can do all of this mobile, too. How much would you pay for a service like that?

  11. What I want in digital downloads by davidwr · · Score: 4, Insightful
    For "purchased" items I want a perpetual-use, use-anywhere, one-use-at-a-time, as-many-copies-as-I-need, no-DRM, honor-system "like a book" license, "enforced" only by a customized copy that can be traced back to me if it gets spread around the world. I expect to pay no more than I would at a video store or mail-order for a DVD.

    For rented items, I'm willing to accept time- and device-restrictions. If I rent a DVD from NetFlix, I don't expect to play it on anything but a DVD player. I expect to pay no more than I would at a video store or DVD-rental-by-mail service for a similar product for a similar rental period.

    The advantages of a well-done digital rental service are that when ordering, I can
    • Specify the destination device, e.g. "Windows Media Player" or some other device that may or may not exist yet
    • Specify the rental time limit to begin watching, e.g. 30 days after payment
    • Specify the rental time limit to finish watching, e.g. 24 hours after first playback or 30 days after payment
    • Extend my rental without downloading the whole thing all over again
    • Specify if I'm willing to watch commercials before, after or during the media and if those commercials will be in the form of breaks, border ads, or product-placement ads. If I want to pay more for a "no commercials" option I can do that too. Of course I can also provide marketing information in exchange for further discounts, coupons for other products, etc.
    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
  12. Great! by inexplicable_fool · · Score: 5, Funny

    Finally there's a way of getting DRMed WMV files to me that costs the content distributor less! Thank God, now they can afford enough ammo to hunt the poor with.

  13. It's the service not the content. by Kadin2048 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Sure, but even if a release group grabbed all the content, it would be difficult for them to duplicate the service.

    The value provided in a hypothetical P2P service offered by the movie theaters is greater than just the content that it provides. It's about having all that content right there, waiting for you, with a predictable quality, all nicely sorted and reviewed, perhaps recommended to you by a nice Amazon or NetFlix-like smart system.

    The value is in the service, in the aggregation, organization, and presentation of the data, not in the data itself.

    Think of it like a newsfeed or wire service. You can get most of the same information elsewhere, but what you pay for is the constant feed of new information, that's tailored to your needs, in a consistent format and with some guarantee (hopefully) of minimum quality.

    The movie studios are sitting on top of a gold mine in their back catalogs. Even though the value of each movie in the catalog might be low, and might not get many downloads, they would be able to advertise to customers that they'd have access to a vast repository of movies (anyone remember that commercial for one of the big telcos -- I think it was Lucent -- where a guy is standing in a seedy hotel talking to the clerk, and asks what they have on cable, and the clerk says 'every movie ever made'?) without screwing around with shady overseas sites or downloading a film only to find out afterwards that it's a shitty screener, or has foreign subtitles, etc. That service would have value, which people would pay to subscribe to, particularly if the movies themselves didn't have DRM and there wasn't an obvious lock-in. People would pay, and keep paying, for the same reason they pay for NetFlix and the Internet in general -- once you've drunk from a really fat pipe and seen what it's like to have instant access to vast amounts of info, it's tough to ever go back.

    --
    "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."