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Fair Use Bill Introduced To Change DMCA

An anonymous reader tips us to a Washington Post blogger's note that Representatives Boucher (D-VA) and Dolittle (R-CA) today introduced the FAIR USE Act to update the DMCA to "make it easier for digital media consumers to use the content they buy." Boucher's statement on the bill says, "The Digital Millennium Copyright Act dramatically tilted the copyright balance toward complete copyright protection at the expense of the public's right to fair use..." The Post failed to note the history. Boucher has been introducing this bill for years; here are attempts from 2002 and 2003. The chances may be better in this Congress. And reader Rolling maul writes in to note Ars's disappointment with the bill for leaving the DMCA's anti-circumvention provisions intact: "Yet again, the bill does not appear to deliver on what most observers want: clear protection for making personal use copies of encrypted materials. There is no allowance for consumers to make backups of DVDs, to strip encryption from music purchased online so that it can be played anywhere, or to generally do any of the things that the DMCA has made illegal."

152 comments

  1. Nice... by __aajqwr7439 · · Score: 2

    Not that it will pass, but it would be pleasant not to be a criminal for burning the DVDs I own for viewing on my PSP...

    DN

    1. Re:Nice... by kennygraham · · Score: 2, Informative

      Not that it will pass, but it would be pleasant not to be a criminal for burning the DVDs I own for viewing on my PSP...

      DN Incase the summary was too long to read, that still would be illegal.
    2. Re:Nice... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      PSPs don't have DVD drives, so how the hell would you view a burned DVD anyway?

    3. Re:Nice... by RobertLTux · · Score: 3, Informative

      DVD > Vobs >raw mp4 >> MSProDuo stick

      --
      Any person using FTFY or editing my postings agrees to a US$50.00 charge
    4. Re:Nice... by HTH+NE1 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Not that it will pass, but it would be pleasant not to be a criminal for burning the DVDs I own for viewing on my PSP...
      In case the summary was too long to read, that still would be illegal.
      It's more depressing than that. The provision to strike down the anti-circumvention clause of the DMCA was the only thing keeping others from attaching the Broadcast Flag FCC-authorizing bill to this one (or vice versa). Excerpting from the testimony of Fritz Attaway, Executive Vice President and Special Policy Advisor, MPAA (a PDF):

      Let me add one cautionary note. While we strongly support legislation that will reinstate the Broadcast Flag, we cannot support legislation that will do that at the expense of the anti-circumvention provisions of the DMCA. It has been suggested that HR 1201 [2006 version] be attached to Broadcast Flag legislation. However, that type of legislation would as a practical matter repeal Section 1201 of the DMCA, would compromise efforts to fight piracy and inflict devastating harm on an important American industry.
      Irreconcilable differences between the industry and the consumers will doom this one as well.
      --
      Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
    5. Re:Nice... by Yez70 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      In the US we are watching a lot of small personal freedoms be legislated away. This is one of them: to do what we wish with what we purchase. I understand it isn't 'in the constitution' but it is implied in our way of life. The fact that our leaders continue to propose bills of 'fair use' that don't allow 'fair use' is more telling of who is in control. This is yet another tiny step nowhere for the 'fair use' debate.

      To Be Fair.

      Has anyone been successfully prosecuted for burning a personal DVD for personal use on their PSP?

      It doesn't make it right that it is illegal, but at least our society doesn't enforce the fact - yet.

    6. Re:Nice... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I know of one way to solve "irreconcilable differences."

      Yes, we fight them with roses!

    7. Re:Nice... by ShinmaWa · · Score: 1

      I think he meant rip his DVDs to a memory stick, rather than burn.

      --
      The /. Effect: Thousands of users simultaneously accessing a site to not read its content.
    8. Re:Nice... by Dun+Malg · · Score: 4, Informative

      I understand it isn't 'in the constitution' No worry-- it doesn't matter because it doesn't HAVE to be there. Anytime anyone throws the bullshit "isn't in the constitution so it isn't a right" line out, tell them to read the 9th Amendment:

      "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

      In other words, just because it didn't make the "top ten list" doesn't mean it's not a right. Alexander Hamilton was steadfastly opposed to the Bill of Rights for this very reason. the 9th Amendment was an attempt to address such concerns. So next time you hear some loser parroting Rush Limbaugh and saying "the Constitution says nothing about us having the right to [whatever]", punch the dumb motherfucker in the face.

      Sorry. Touchy issue for me.
      --
      If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
    9. Re:Nice... by JBHarris · · Score: 1

      I'm glad someone was awake during their high school Civics class besides me. We have a right to do ANYTHING & EVERYTHING, except those things which Congress/President/SCOTUS takes away from us, or bestows upon the government. I agree with Hamilton's assertion that if we enumerate the important (top 10) rights, the others will be assumed to not exist. Which in fact this is NOT the case.

      Brad

    10. Re:Nice... by danpsmith · · Score: 1

      In the US we are watching a lot of small personal freedoms be legislated away. This is one of them: to do what we wish with what we purchase. I understand it isn't 'in the constitution' but it is implied in our way of life. The fact that our leaders continue to propose bills of 'fair use' that don't allow 'fair use' is more telling of who is in control. This is yet another tiny step nowhere for the 'fair use' debate.

      I've got one solution: become a pirate. Seriously, they can't prosecute 100% of the population, introduce everyone to piracy. If you don't buy their products they won't have the money to lobby congress, they won't have the money to include more DRM and they'll see that including the DRM was worthless for preventing piracy. If everyone started pirating today the battle on piracy would eventually end in our favor, and these people would have to start being civil to their customers again.

      They can try, but they can't jail and sue all of us. Consider it 21st century's repeal of prohibition by popular demand.

      --
      Judges and senates have been bought for gold; Esteem and love were never to be sold.
    11. Re:Nice... by jwo7777777 · · Score: 1

      As much as I would like to bestow upon the **AA the singular honor of viewing my clenched fists with middle-fingers protruding, my conscience bothers me too much to significantly raise the Jolly Roger.

    12. Re:Nice... by Lockejaw · · Score: 1

      I suspect that in such a case, piracy would be let slide for a while and later used as an excuse to lock up "undesirables."

      --
      (IANAL)
  2. Worse than Nothing. by ZachPruckowski · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Now lawmakers and the "content" industries can claim they've already answer criticism and given ground, without actually changing much of anything.

  3. Non-partisan by sharp-bang · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The party shift in Congress won't change anything regarding the DCMA or copyright. Although fair use is certainly important to many Democrats, the concentration of IP rights in the hands of a few large companies at the expense of consumer rights has been a depressingly non-partisan issue.

    --
    #!
    1. Re:Non-partisan by shawn(at)fsu · · Score: 3, Insightful

      DCMA was made in to law in 1998, during the Clinton administration, so I agree that this isn't a political issue. I do think, however, that as the DMCA begins to impede on what law makers think is fair use when they are sitting in there own homes trying to watch a movie with the family that the DMCA will modified.

      --
      500 dollar reward for tip(s) leading to the arrest of the person(s) who stole my sig.
    2. Re:Non-partisan by AeroIllini · · Score: 1

      The party shift in Congress won't change anything regarding the DCMA or copyright. When I first read this, I thought it said, "The shifty part of Congress won't change anything regarding the DCMA or copyright."

      Too bad most of Congress is shifty.
      --
      For security, the MD5 hash of this message and sig is 09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0.
    3. Re:Non-partisan by 91degrees · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Don't be too ready to dismiss this. Politicians want votes. Not money. Money is just a means to an end.

      Because of the DMCA, a lot of intelligent people have become increasingly political, and represent a substantial voting block. On top of this, big corporations sueing poor people has led to quite a lot of people becoming a little negative about copyright. In the past copyright hasn't affected the ordinary guy too much. Now it looks like it might.

  4. "The chances may be better in this Congress" by the_skywise · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Why? Because it's "Democrat" controlled?

    Who signed the DMCA bill into law, btw?

    1. Re:"The chances may be better in this Congress" by LunaticTippy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Congress doesn't sign bills. Presidents do. You should really make an effort to learn about how US government works.

      Some people think that a democratic party controlled congress will be more sympathetic to fair use rights. I have my doubts, since both parties seem to be growing increasingly corporatist. The republicans at the FCC have been busy conglomerating power for media companies for some time now, so it is understandable to think that a democratic congress might be different. We'll see.

      --
      Man, you really need that seminar!
    2. Re:"The chances may be better in this Congress" by jfengel · · Score: 1

      Congress doesn't sign bills. Presidents do.

      Right. President Clinton, in this case. A Democrat. You really should make an effort to figure out why the poster is asking a question before assuming they're ignorant.

    3. Re:"The chances may be better in this Congress" by sangreal66 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Congress doesn't sign bills. Presidents do. You should really make an effort to learn about how US government works.
      The GP's point was that the bill was signed into law by President Clinton, a Democrat.
    4. Re:"The chances may be better in this Congress" by Spazmania · · Score: 1

      That's cute, but before it could be signed it was first passed by the Republican-controlled House of Representatives and the Republican-controlled Senate.

      --
      Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
    5. Re:"The chances may be better in this Congress" by LunaticTippy · · Score: 1

      Boy, they really need to bring back civics classes. Presidents don't create bills. Legislature does, and both houses were controlled by republicans back then. Can you understand why someone might hope that a different party controlling both houses might come up with different bills? Why are you talking about Clinton? He signed plenty of bad bills, some backed by republicans, some backed by democrats.

      --
      Man, you really need that seminar!
    6. Re:"The chances may be better in this Congress" by LunaticTippy · · Score: 1

      He signed a bill created by a republican congress. Now we have a democratic congress. Can you understand why people might hope a different party would tend to draft different bills? Hell, if it's a popular bill Bush, a republican, might even sign it.

      Not that I have much faith in either party to look out for our rights.

      --
      Man, you really need that seminar!
    7. Re:"The chances may be better in this Congress" by HTH+NE1 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      That's cute, but before it could be signed it was first passed by the Republican-controlled House of Representatives and the Republican-controlled Senate.

      And, IIRC, did so by voice votes(*), so there'd be no record of who voted what way (such as how many Democrats supported it and how many Republicans did not) nor even hard numbers of ayes and nays, only that a clear majority voted for it.

      Which not only concealed how they voted from their constituents, but also whether they had enough votes to override any Presidential veto.

      (*) Or was it the Communications Decency Act, or was it both of them?

      --
      Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
    8. Re:"The chances may be better in this Congress" by Keebler71 · · Score: 2, Informative

      If the bill didn't pass the senate 99-0 and pass the house by a voice vote (most likely near-unanimous)... then you might have a point.

      --
      "It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance." - Thomas Sowell
    9. Re:"The chances may be better in this Congress" by HTH+NE1 · · Score: 1

      We seem to be thinking along the same lines at nearly the same time. Thank you for the Senate detail.

      I wonder what Senator Gregg's (R-NH) reason was for abstaining.

      --
      Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
    10. Re:"The chances may be better in this Congress" by bendodge · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      If the bill didn't pass the senate 99-0 and pass the house by a voice vote (most likely near-unanimous)... then you might have a point. It takes a 3/2 vote from both houses to override a presidential veto, not 99-0. Please try to confine yourself to subjects you are knowledgeable on.
      --
      The government can't save you.
    11. Re:"The chances may be better in this Congress" by CodeBuster · · Score: 1

      If I remember correctly from my civics classes then any citizen, including the President of course, can write a bill for introduction into Congress. The key is getting a congressman to take the bill that you have written and introduce it into the appropriate committee where it can start working its way through the process. In fact, the various lobbying firms in DC do precisely that when they try and convince congressmen to introduce bills that they have written. Theoretically the same channels are open to the average citizen, but realistically who has time to write the bill properly (requires lawyer like legal skills), organize the paper work, present it to the right congressman, and do the lobbying to get the bill introduced. The answer of course is nobody which is why there are a lot of really horrible bills floating around because many of them get written by special interest lobby groups whose own interest is almost certainly not the same as the public interest.

    12. Re:"The chances may be better in this Congress" by Dhalka226 · · Score: 1

      It takes a 3/2 vote from both houses to override a presidential veto, not 99-0.

      That would be 2/3. And 99-0 is just a bit over two-thirds, wouldn't you say? Not many presidents are going to veto a bill if they know their veto is going to be overturned; it weakens them.

      But the grandparent didn't say anything about a veto. He commented on the question, "can you understand why people might hope a different party would tend to draft different bills?" When a bill passes 99-0 in the Senate, it has overwhelming support from BOTH parties.

      Please try to confine yourself to subjects you are knowledgeable on.

      What I assume is a typo aside, perhaps you should take your own advice. You seem to have completely missed the point and attempted to disparage the GP for it.

    13. Re:"The chances may be better in this Congress" by quanticle · · Score: 1

      >>Presidents don't create bills. Legislature does, and both houses were controlled by republicans back then.<<

      First of all, anyone can draft a bill, but only a Congressperson can introduce a bill into their legislative body.

      >>Why are you talking about Clinton?<<

      He could have vetoed the DMCA. The Republicans did not have the two-thirds majorities they needed to overrride. And, given the highly technical nature of the DMCA, I don't think there would have been any general public outcry if that bill had been quietly killed off.

      I support most of Clinton's policies, but in this case I disagree strongly.

      --
      We all know what to do, but we don't know how to get re-elected once we have done it
    14. Re:"The chances may be better in this Congress" by Kreigaffe · · Score: 1

      I can't not comment on 150% of the house and the senate being needed to override a presidential veto.

      --
      ... still waiting for this free-as-in-beer free beer I keep hearing about. :|
    15. Re:"The chances may be better in this Congress" by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 1

      Right. President Clinton, in this case. A Democrat.

      With a Republican congress that, a few years before shut down the federal government to piss off Clinton, and also had enough votes to ram through a veto override while doing its best to impeach him on anything they could find. damn right he signed it.

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
    16. Re:"The chances may be better in this Congress" by rossifer · · Score: 1

      He could have vetoed the DMCA. The Republicans did not have the two-thirds majorities they needed to overrride.
      What are you talking about? The DMCA enjoyed so little dissention in the house that it passed with a voice vote and a unanimous vote in the senate. Talk about a veto-proof majority.

      The OP was right. The DMCA was a bi-partisan screwing of the general public.

      And, given the highly technical nature of the DMCA, I don't think there would have been any general public outcry if that bill had been quietly killed off.
      There was a rather large amount of hue-and-cry among all sorts of academics and technology people. I distinctly remember the time around the passage of the DMCA and that the EFF was prominently quoted in the newspaper with their opposition to the law. It's the only time the EFF ever entered a conversation between myself and my grandmother.

      Not that this discredits your point, but there was quite a bit of opposition to the bill around me in 1998.

      Regards,
      Ross
    17. Re:"The chances may be better in this Congress" by bendodge · · Score: 1

      Er, that was a typo. It was supposed to be 2/3.

      --
      The government can't save you.
    18. Re:"The chances may be better in this Congress" by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      To quote Gamespy's Sam & Max episode 4 review:

      American politics has finally reached the point where a hyper-violent rabbit with a gun fetish who promises to nuke the Antarctic is a more attractive candidate than anyone running in the real world.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
  5. That still doesn't stop the fact that... by physicsboy500 · · Score: 5, Funny

    To the tune of YMCA (this stolen from www.userfriendly.org):

    Net geeks,
    There's no need to feel guilt
    I said, Net geeks
    For the software you built
    I said, Net geeks,
    Cause you're not in the wrong
    There's no need to feel unhappy

    Net geeks,
    You can burn a CD.
    I said, Net Geeks,
    With your fave mp3's.
    You can Play them
    In your home or your car.
    Many ways to take them real far!

    It's fun to violate the D.M.C.A
    It's fun to violate the D.M.C.A
    You have everything you need to enjoy
    Your music with your toys!

    It's fun to violate the D.M.C.A
    It's fun to violate the D.M.C.A
    You can archive your tunes
    You can share over cable
    You can annoy the record labels!

    --
    The original generic sig.
    1. Re:That still doesn't stop the fact that... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      With your fave mp3's.
      We use Ogg Vorbis you insensitive clod!
  6. James Earl Jones said it best by c0d3h4x0r · · Score: 3, Funny

    Yet again, the bill does not appear to deliver on what most observers want: clear protection for making personal use copies of encrypted materials. There is no allowance for consumers to make backups of DVDs, to strip encryption from music purchased online so that it can be played anywhere, or to generally do any of the things that the DMCA has made illegal.

    "We are the United States government -- we don't DO that sort of thing!"

    --
    Moderator hint: a comment is neither "Flamebait" nor "Troll" if it is true.
    1. Re:James Earl Jones said it best by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sneakers. Fantastic reference. ;)

  7. Why is encryption even covered by the DMCA? by carrus85 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I've always wondered this. The current DMCA, AFAIK, makes breaking encryption a questionable prospect, at best (unless you have permission from the encryption designers). Why should this even be protected? Shouldn't we just encourage people to use stronger encryption that isn't as easily circumvented (in effect, why are we legislating that the use of "weak" encryption is okay)?

    Personally, I think the encryption itself should be the deterrent to the circumvention of the encryption, not legislation.

    If we can break the encryption, too bad; use something besides Fisher Price's "My First Encryption Algorithm" next time.

    1. Re:Why is encryption even covered by the DMCA? by mandelbr0t · · Score: 5, Insightful

      That's exactly the problem. In fact, this bill is a worthless waste of time. If anti-circumvention isn't addressed, then the DMCA still wins. The DMCA doesn't remove Fair Use rights, it just makes it illegal to obtain a copy which would be protected by those rights. This new bill only reinforces what is already law.

      As someone cleverly pointed out, current "protections" involve distributing both lock and key in an obscured form, then using a proprietary technology to put the key in the lock. Therefore, the reason for this encryption is suspect. The end-user is provided both cryptotext and private key, but told it is illegal to use them together except through a particular device (what we're selling) for a specific purpose (to watch exactly once).

      --
      "Please describe the scientific nature of the 'whammy'" - Agent Scully
    2. Re:Why is encryption even covered by the DMCA? by QuasiEvil · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Why should this even be protected? Shouldn't we just encourage people to use stronger encryption that isn't as easily circumvented (in effect, why are we legislating that the use of "weak" encryption is okay)? Because that's not the fantasy that most folks want to believe. Most people think that security by obscurity is pretty good, and beyond that, they'll go to basic crypto. (I admit that SBO works in some cases in the physical world, but in the electronic world it doesn't stand a chance.) They want to believe that anything encrypted is protected.

      Take a look at the retarded laws covering scanners and cellphones/cordless telephones. We could just tell people that these things are insecure and let the market handle it, or legislate the implementation of real security, or we could tell all the law-abiding folks to stop monitoring those frequencies and force equipment manufacturers to degrade performance across the spectrum to filter these particular frequencies. Meanwhile, anybody who really wants to can still come up with a receiver that will work in those bands... The public *wanted to believe* that their phone conversations were secure, so they made listening illegal rather than actually trying to make them secure (or letting the free market do it as a "feature"). Legislate to the fantasy, that's what we do today, because it makes people feel better even if they're worse off...

    3. Re:Why is encryption even covered by the DMCA? by Jherek+Carnelian · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The current DMCA, AFAIK, makes breaking encryption a questionable prospect, at best. Why should this even be protected? ...why are we legislating that the use of "weak" encryption is okay?

      Because the uses of encryption that the DMCA protects can never be "strong" - DRM is all about giving people the decryption keys to decode the content but trying to trick them through elaborate obfuscation into not realizing they have the keys. That kind of scheme can never be cryptographically secure, so to patch that loophole, the MAFIAA got the DMCA passed which makes it illegal instead of impossible. The MAFIAA are a bunch of lawyers, to them the laws of man are just as good, if not more useful than the laws of math and physics.

    4. Re:Why is encryption even covered by the DMCA? by Panaflex · · Score: 1

      As someone cleverly pointed out, current "protections" involve distributing both lock and key in an obscured form, then using a proprietary technology to put the key in the lock.

      Thank you! That's an excellent explanation - certainly one I'll "fair use" as well.

      --
      I said no... but I missed and it came out yes.
    5. Re:Why is encryption even covered by the DMCA? by mpe · · Score: 1

      Because the uses of encryption that the DMCA protects can never be "strong" - DRM is all about giving people the decryption keys to decode the content but trying to trick them through elaborate obfuscation into not realizing they have the keys. That kind of scheme can never be cryptographically secure,

      In some cases they migyht even toss in a cypher machine too.
      The other way in which the whole idea just falls apart is that you have to output some kind of plaintext.

      the MAFIAA got the DMCA passed which makes it illegal instead of impossible. The MAFIAA are a bunch of lawyers, to them the laws of man are just as good, if not more useful than the laws of math and physics.

      They don't appear to realise that the laws on man do not override the laws of the universe.

    6. Re:Why is encryption even covered by the DMCA? by tiny-e · · Score: 1

      I believe that strong encryption (past a certain point, or at least without a backdoor for the Feds) is considered to be munitions by the government -- which are not to be exported or sold internationally.

      Remember if you can encrypt your data so well that nobody (read: the cops, feds, insert your fav. arm of the gov't here) can decipher it, the terrrrrists win.

  8. So my free software dvd player is still illegal? by Chris+Burke · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Would I still be breaking the law every time I play a legally purchased DVD on my Linux-based computer using decss-derived software?

    It sounds like it. It sounds like the bill wouldn't even allow you to play a DRM-encumbered CD, unless the DRM was a Sony rootkit or other security problem. Lame.

    Though on the other hand, being able to say "I am breaking the law every time I watch a DVD on my computer" is a simple and clear way to demonstrate how crazy copyright has become by outlawing what is so obviously ethical behavior. Since I will still be able to say that should this bill be passed, I have an equally simple way of expressing how copyright law is still screwed up, and how this bill completely failed to fix it.

    Much better than having it partially fix the main problem so that it still isn't adequate, but becomes harder to explain. To put it another way: If you're going to suck, suck hard, so the slurping noise gives you away.

    --

    The enemies of Democracy are
  9. Government won't allow DRM circumvention by AusIV · · Score: 1

    The *IAA has too much money and political power for the government to pass a law allowing the circumvention of DRM. If DRM could legally be broken, there would quickly be commercial efforts to break it, and new methods wouldn't last a week. Clearly the media industry wouldn't like that, and for whatever reason, the government supports them more than the consumer.

  10. Illegal but unenforceable by mangu · · Score: 5, Interesting
    it would be pleasant not to be a criminal for burning the DVDs I own for viewing on my PSP...


    You could be a "criminal" under the law, but not under moral principles. As the ancient Romans said, "non omne licitum honestum", which is translated as "not everything that's legal is honest".


    Apart from the basic principles of "fair use", I think lawmakers should restrain from creating unenforceable laws, because they weaken the whole principle of legitimacy of the state. Violating laws that restrict copying of digital works is ridiculously easy. Even if some people try to equate copying music and films to robbing banks, if it were as easy to rob a bank as it is to copy a DVD, I would think the whole business model of banking should be reviewed before creating stricter laws against bank robbery.


    There's a great quotation by Robert Heinlein about this. In his 1965 novel "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" his character Bernardo de la Paz said: "But I will accept any rules that you feel necessary to your freedom. I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; If I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am responsible for everything I do." In digital works, this assertion is absolutely true everywhere. If the public does not accept the laws protecting "intellectual property", those laws will be broken.

    1. Re:Illegal but unenforceable by pezpunk · · Score: 4, Insightful

      In digital works, this assertion is absolutely true everywhere. If the public does not accept the laws protecting "intellectual property", those laws will be broken.

      you know, i used to agree with this. after all, look at prohibition, right? but then i saw what the RIAA did to the Napster-using grandmothers and little girls of the world. there were 24 million Napster users at one point, and later even more who used the other various p2p systems that took its place. this did nothing to stop the RIAA and its hired legal guns from waging a war of propaganda and litigation, one that they have largely won at this point.

      no laws sprung up to defend this huge chunk of the populace.

      in fact, if you want to know what p2p users have accomplished so far ... as the smoke clears, all i can see from here are newer, clearer, more restrictive laws with harsher penalties for the so-called thieves and pirates.

      maybe back in the early 20th century politicians actually cared more about their constituants than their contributors? i don't know. but the whole "if enough of us do it, it will become legal" strategy doesn't seem to be working anymore.

      --
      i could live a little longer in this prison
    2. Re:Illegal but unenforceable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No shit Sherlock, but the problem is that the general public doesn't care, and if YOU alone break some laws, stupid as they may be (lex injusta non est lex; an unjust law isn't a law), you will be punished by the powers that be.

      It's great to say we are all free, when we are all only free to suffer the punishment of our unjust rulers. That doesn't really help, even though it sounds cool.

      Yes, I know, I don't have a solution either, but we can still try to educate people about what real freedom would be like.

    3. Re:Illegal but unenforceable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You could be a "criminal" under the law, but not under moral principles. As the ancient Romans said, "non omne licitum honestum", which is translated as "not everything that's legal is honest".

      Your quote is backwards from the example you're using. You should want "not everything that's honest is legal."

    4. Re:Illegal but unenforceable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And as more laws are passed that people do not obey, the more we will all become criminal in the eyes of the State. One day, the old, corrupt rule of law will be torn down and replaced with a sparkling new creation. It will tarnish, in time, and itself be discarded. This is how nations rise and fall and rise again.

    5. Re:Illegal but unenforceable by Chris+Burke · · Score: 2, Insightful

      maybe back in the early 20th century politicians actually cared more about their constituants than their contributors? i don't know. but the whole "if enough of us do it, it will become legal" strategy doesn't seem to be working anymore.

      I'm not an expert on the subject and it isn't entirely clear to me why prohibition ended. I do think the negative effects of prohibition -- e.g. entire cities falling under the sway of organized crime -- was more severe and certainly more obvious than the rather ephemeral harm of my not being able to legally watch DVDs on my Ubuntu box. The violation of the law was more blatant -- Speakeasys were prolific, and they were social, so you were basically surrounded by fellow law breakers. Copyright violation is more private, more furtive.

      One difference I'm sure of is that with music, we aren't going outside the normal sources to get what we want. We're getting it illegally, but what we are consuming is still the mainstream media. During prohibition people just went to illegal sources for booze, so the huge alcohol-related economy was happening entirely outside of traditional (taxable) avenues. Here, while piracy may mean somewhat fewer sales for the studios (and arguably it means the opposite), the fact is that the majority of people still get their music by giving money to RIAA studios. If we responded to laws like the DMCA by going to completely separate sources of music, ones that didn't feel a need to treat us like criminals, then we would definitely have an effect. This is happening already, but it is slow and not guaranteed to end with the death of the RIAA. Yet if it does, then we might see a reaction more like that at the end of prohibition, with the Big Money seeing their Money going someplace else and not liking it.

      Basically what I'm suggesting is that the DMCA will be repealed when, practically speaking, it is completely irrelevent.

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    6. Re:Illegal but unenforceable by spirality · · Score: 1

      Awesome quote. Thanks!

    7. Re:Illegal but unenforceable by spirality · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I actually should have fired this back at you with my previous post. :) Anyway, here it is, even if a bit belated.
      Again thanks for the great quotation.

      No society can exist unless the laws are respected to a certain degree. The safest way to make laws respected is to make them respectable. When law and morality contradict each other, the citizen has the cruel alternative of either losing his moral sense or losing his respect for the law.

      -Frederic Bastiat
      The Law

    8. Re:Illegal but unenforceable by QuantumG · · Score: 1

      entire cities falling under the sway of organized crime You mean like they are now.. because of the other drugs that are prohibited?

      The end of the prohibition of alcohol really was a one off case of common sense on the part of law makers.

      It may never happen again.
      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    9. Re:Illegal but unenforceable by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1

      You mean like they are now.. because of the other drugs that are prohibited?

      They've done a better job of stigmatizing those drugs than they did with alcohol and pushing the users underground, and organized crime isn't quite so prevelent. Though to get at the real reason, I'll have to steal from Bill Hicks by saying: Ever notice how the drugs that are legal, like alcohol and cigarettes, are the ones that do absolutely nothing for you, while the ones that can expand your mind like LSD are banned? It's almost like they want to keep us sick and stupid instead of having us wake up and realize how badly we're being screwed... ;)

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    10. Re:Illegal but unenforceable by QuantumG · · Score: 1

      Personally, I think it boils down to one thing.. back when they failed to prohibited alcohol, the government was much smaller.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    11. Re:Illegal but unenforceable by jcr · · Score: 1

      The end of the prohibition of alcohol really was a one off case of common sense on the part of law makers.

      You give them too much credit. It was the legislature caving to overwhelming pressure from the voters.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    12. Re:Illegal but unenforceable by mangu · · Score: 1
      OK, here are some other Heinlein quotations:


      "There is no way to offer color to a colorblind man, nor there is any way for us to give the man of imperfect brain the canny skill to distinguish a lie from a truth.("Gulf", 1949)


      "you are willing to assert your own religious convictions and to use them as a touchstone to judge my conduct. So I repeat: who told you? What hill were you standing on when the lightning came down from heaven and illuminated you? Which archangel carried the message? ... I believe that a man has an obligation to be merciful to the weak ... patient with the stupid ... generous with the poor. I think he is obliged to lay down his life for his brothers, should it be required of him. But I don't propose to prove any of these things; they are beyond proof. And I don't demand that you believe as I do. ... I believe very strongly in freedom of religion - but I think that that freedom is best expressed as freedom to keep quiet. From my point of view, a great deal of openly expressed piety is insufferable conceit."
        ("If This Goes On -", 1954)


      "as I see, there are no circumstances under which State is justified in placing its welfare ahead of mine. ... May I ask this? Under which circumstances is it moral for a group to do that which is not moral for a member of that group to do alone?

      ... A rational anarchist believes that concepts such as 'state' and 'society' and 'government' have no existence save as physically exemplified in the acts of self-responsible individuals. He believes that it is impossible to shift blame, share blame, distribute blame ... as blame, guilt and responsibility are matters taking place inside human beings and nowhere else. ... My point is that some person is responsible. Always. If H-bombs exist - and they do - some person controls them. In terms of morals there is no such thing as 'state'. Just men. Individuals. Each responsible for his own acts. ...


      What I fear most are affirmative actions of sober and well intentioned men, granting the government power to do something that appears to need doing. ...


      No matter how lavishly overpaid, civil servants everywhere are convinced that they are horribly underpaid - but all public employees have larceny in their hearts or they wouldn't be feeding at the public through. These two facts are all you need - but be careful! - a public employee, having no self-respect, needs and demands a show of public respect."
        ("The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress", 1966)

    13. Re:Illegal but unenforceable by WK1 · · Score: 1, Insightful

      as the smoke clears, all i can see from here are newer, clearer, more restrictive laws with harsher penalties for the so-called thieves and pirates. ...

      That's the first step. They fight back.

      i don't know. but the whole "if enough of us do it, it will become legal" strategy doesn't seem to be working anymore.

      It looks the opposite to me. We're winning. Maybe I'm just older, and can see more of it that you. These things take time. Don't stop. Don't buy from any companies affiliated with the **IA. If you feel comfortable breaking the law, continue to do so.

      I'm not saying that jailing pirates is similar to racial discrimination, but the history of the civil rights movement is an excellent resource for learning how to change government. Read up on it if you have the time, you'll get a better understanding of the timeline and some of the challenges we might face. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_Rights _Movement_(1955-1968)

      This is important. We fight for freedom. We fight for America. Don't stop believing.

    14. Re:Illegal but unenforceable by indifferent+children · · Score: 1
      back when they failed to prohibited alcohol, the government was much smaller.

      And now the government is larger. How does their total failure to make a dent in today's illegal drug trade jibe with your statement?

      --
      Censorship is telling a man he can't have a steak just because a baby can't chew it. --Mark Twain
    15. Re:Illegal but unenforceable by QuantumG · · Score: 1

      They don't care about the illegal drug trade.. they care about enforcing their personal morality on others. It's all about the circle. You know the circle? It's where middle class white people live. Anyone outside the circle must be demonized, treated and brought into the circle or institutionalized so they don't upset the circle.. then they can call them "normal". If you happen to be inside the circle, and you want to stay inside the circle, you better make sure you hide what you do that might push you out of the circle. What's this got to do with the government? Well, was a time when the government wasn't really very effective at defining the status quo.. the people did that, and the government followed.. but we don't live there anymore.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    16. Re:Illegal but unenforceable by Short+Circuit · · Score: 1

      Politicians, as a class, have always cared more about their contributors than their constituents.

      I recall an 1870s-era cartoon from my history book that showed dinky, skinny congressmen in session, with huge, fat businessmen sitting in the back row. The businessmen had words emblazoned on them like "Steel trust", "rail trust", etc.

    17. Re:Illegal but unenforceable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Also, not everything legal is moral, and not everything moral is legal. Adultery and collecting interest on a debt are immoral, according to the Christian Bible, while nothing in that book says I can't smoke a joint.

      Actually, the 9th amendment should protect my right to get wasted, and the section concerning copyright should make the Bono Act (that's the one that extended copyright to almost two centuries) unconstitutional.

      Unfortunately, the Supreme Court is composed of lawyers rather than rational people. Remembering Clinton's forty million dollar blow job, Lawyers argue the meaning of the word "is" and say oral sex isn't sex.

      The Constitution is pretty meaningless this century, the President and Congress can pretty much do anything they damned well please. As such, I feel inclined to ignore ALL laws.

      Mind Reading Capcha="anarchic". Sweet.

  11. Pass the bill by Spazmania · · Score: 1, Interesting

    There's a word for introducing a bill that has no hope of being passed: grandstanding.

    Instead, Boucher has produced a bill that actually has a decent chance of becoming law. That would be great since it gives a number of circumvention devices a legal way to exist and be distributed.

    In two years maybe we'll have a Democratic president and then he'll be in a position to pass a more sweeping bill.

    --
    Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
    1. Re:Pass the bill by Salo2112 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Remember, the last Democrat who was President signed the current bill. The Democrats get a lot of money from Hollywood, so they won't be too eager to go against Hollywood's perceived interests.

    2. Re:Pass the bill by EvanED · · Score: 1

      Remember, the last Democrat who was President signed the current bill... ...which was passed by a Republican congress. Presidents can't veto every bill that comes across their desk you know. And as much as we think the DMCA sucks, I'm sure that for most other bills that went through Clinton there's some segment that thinks the law is horrible and everyone should hate it.

      Not to argue your overall thesis though; the Dems are unfortunately just as bad as Republicans on copyright. But you can't put blame for the DMCA on the Dems, because the GOP was more instrumental in it's creation and passing.

    3. Re:Pass the bill by monkey_dongle · · Score: 1

      or she

    4. Re:Pass the bill by quanticle · · Score: 2, Informative

      >>Presidents can't veto every bill that comes across their desk you know.

      Sure they can. The President is free to veto whatever he wants to. And Congress is free to overrride the President's veto with a 2/3 majority. In this case, I don't think the DMCA had the necessary level of Congressional support needed to override a veto. The highly technical nature of they bill also would have made it difficult to gin up a huge public outcry against the veto.

      Clinton should have vetoed the DMCA.

      --
      We all know what to do, but we don't know how to get re-elected once we have done it
    5. Re:Pass the bill by EvanED · · Score: 1

      The President is free to veto whatever he wants to.

      He's also free to look really bad. Vetos generally don't look very good, especially if you do a lot of them. If the president looks bad, he hurts the party.

      And while I think I'd be pretty happy for the most part if the president vetoed every bill that comes out of congress, I don't think that would make too many people too pleased.

      This is overlooking the fact that dems are equally behind copyright crap like this, so he may not have WANTED to veto the DMCA. I'm just saying that you can't blame Clinton or the dems exclusively, because it was introduced into and passed by a wholly Republican Congress.

    6. Re:Pass the bill by anthony_dipierro · · Score: 1

      In two years maybe we'll have a Democratic president and then he'll be in a position to pass a more sweeping bill.

      Maybe the Democrat Mary Bono will run for President, and she'll be in a position to pass a much more sweeping bill, like her idea to make copyright last for "forever minus a day".

      C'mon, who voted for the DMCA? Who signed the DMCA? Who voted for/signed the Sonny Bono Copyright Term Extension Act? Who voted for/signed the No Electronic Theft Act?

    7. Re:Pass the bill by dour+power · · Score: 1

      ...introducing a bill that has no hope of being passed...
      Isn't this what's expected of a Rep. named DoLittle?
    8. Re:Pass the bill by Spazmania · · Score: 1

      I see. So a republican house and a republican senate architect and pass the damn thing but its Clinton's fault because with all of his attention and his advisors' attention consumed by the Lewinsky scandal he failed to make an issue of an obscure copyright bill.

      --
      Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
    9. Re:Pass the bill by quanticle · · Score: 1

      >>I'm just saying that you can't blame Clinton or the dems exclusively, because it was introduced into and passed by a wholly Republican Congress.<<

      I'm not saying that the Democrats are *wholly* to blame. I'm just saying that they're not *free* from blame.

      --
      We all know what to do, but we don't know how to get re-elected once we have done it
  12. Vote with our wallets? by idlemind · · Score: 2, Informative

    Stop buying their crap. Find some other way to get entertainment.

    1. Re:Vote with our wallets? by Lithdren · · Score: 1

      ha! so then they claim that they're losing money because we're stealing the entertainment instead.

      Not like they need proof. I haven't bought a movie in years, I used to buy them all the time. Im fed up with movies on DVD because of the commercials and trailers that half the time, you cant skip. Im sure im not the only one. If I pirate the damn thing, none of this junk comes with it. I dont even do that anymore as there's nothing out there worth pirating. Few rare exceptions I buy used, so as to not directly support the bastards.

      So they are losing money, and blaming the pirates, who im sure are not costing them much of anything. They'll always have an excuse as to why their profits are down. Who gives a crap its still profit though, right?

  13. Re:So my free software dvd player is still illegal by Spazmania · · Score: 1

    Yes, however you wouldn't be breaking the law by using "clit" to break Microsoft .lit files and have your computer read them out loud. More importantly, someone could throw a reader into the same .zip file as "clit" and legally distribute it.

    --
    Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
  14. The Correct Solution by ewhac · · Score: 4, Insightful
    There is only one form of legislative act that will correct the problems with the DMCA. It would read roughly as follows:

    "Section 1201 of Title 17 of the United States Code, in its entirety, is hereby repealed."

    Schwab

    1. Re:The Correct Solution by russotto · · Score: 1

      Yep. Further refinements to your bill include
      "Chapter 12 of Title 17 of the United States Code, in its entirety, is hereby repealed."
      "Section 512 of Title 17 of the United States Code, in its entirety, is hereby repealed."

      But this bill doesn't do anything like that, and isn't intended to pass. It's just an attempt to make it look like there's some sort of balance in Congress.

    2. Re:The Correct Solution by EzInKy · · Score: 1


      There is only one form of legislative act that will correct the problems with the DMCA. It would read roughly as follows:

      "Section 1201 of Title 17 of the United States Code, in its entirety, is hereby repealed."


      No, the only near surefire way would be a grassroots Constitutional amendment. Something along the lines of "Congress shall pass no law restricting the free sharing of information among the people" should do it. The "copyright" clause would still stand to prevent commercial exploitation of writers and inventors.

      --
      Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
    3. Re:The Correct Solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why would there still be anything "commercial" once we can all share?

      I suppose an author might convince some rich guy to pay him to write a novel. Said rich guy then gives it to his kid who then shares with the world. Nobody else is going to pay, ever.

      Why does there have to be anything "commercial" left?

    4. Re:The Correct Solution by EzInKy · · Score: 1


      Why would there still be anything "commercial" once we can all share?


      Why wouldn't there be? People pay for many things that they could have or do for free if they find it convenient or valuable to do so.

      --
      Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
    5. Re:The Correct Solution by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 1

      512 is bad, but the safe harbor is useful. Better to fix it than to get rid of it altogether.

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
  15. Goddamn acronyms! by GrenDel+Fuego · · Score: 4, Funny

    FAIR USE = "Freedom and Innovation Revitalizing U.S. Entrepreneurship"

    Somebody please shoot me.

    1. Re:Goddamn acronyms! by EvanED · · Score: 4, Funny

      Hey, it's not as bad as some others. For instance, The Daily Show made fun of the US-VISIT acronym when it came out. If you're not familiar, it stands for "Visitor and Immigrant Status Indicator Technology". After saying that, Stewart says "that name brought to you by the Federal Acronym Registration Team."

    2. Re:Goddamn acronyms! by BronsCon · · Score: 1, Interesting

      When the RIAA says Digitial Millenium Copyright Act (DMCA) I say Fair Use (FU).

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    3. Re:Goddamn acronyms! by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      Hey, I was going for a +5 funny with that comment but that +1 interesting does more for my karma, so I'll take it. Thanks, whoever modded me such, I needed it :)

      (now come with the funny mods, too)

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
  16. FYI: It's not the same bill as previous years by ntk · · Score: 4, Informative

    The DMCA reform bill Boucher has proposed in previous years is the The Digital Media Consumers' Rights Act (DMCRA). FAIR USE is a different bill, with a different target for reform: removing statutory damages, encoding some temporary DMCA exemptions into permanent statute, and ensuring that dual-use technologies (that have non-infringing uses as well as being used for infringement) are legal.

  17. B.A.C.K.R.O.N.Y.M.S. by AeroIllini · · Score: 3, Funny

    "Freedom and Innovation Revitalizing U.S. Entrepreneurship" (or FAIR USE) I want to introduce my own bill...

    "Initiative Halting Arbitrary Terms Excessively Bringing Additional Confusion and Kludginess to Resolutions, Ousting Newspeak, and Yielding a Manageable System." (or I. H.A.T.E. B.A.C.K.R.O.N.Y.M.S.)
    --
    For security, the MD5 hash of this message and sig is 09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0.
    1. Re:B.A.C.K.R.O.N.Y.M.S. by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 1

      You owe me a new keyboard, considering I just spit Diet Pepsi all over my old one!

  18. DVD backups by crankyspice · · Score: 3, Informative

    The DMCA didn't make it illegal to "back up" DVDs. That has always been true of audiovisual works; the reproduction right (17 USC 106) is exclusively reserved to the copyright holder, there's no AHRA-like carveout for movies / TV shows / other A/V works, and the "backup" provisions of 17 USC 117 apply only to computer software -- MPEG2-encoded A/V content is still A/V content, not computer software. The DMCA might have made it (theoretically) harder to reproduce DVDs, what with the anti-circumvention provisions, but no 'right' or legal ability to make a backup copy of an A/V work existed before the DMCA.

    --
    geek. lawyer.
    1. Re:DVD backups by mandelbr0t · · Score: 5, Interesting

      It's also true of any copyrighted work. Fair Use implies that an exception to the copyright law is being made because the particular infringement is not damaging to the copyright holder. This decision was left to the courts to make on a case-by-case basis until DMCA became law. Now you can't argue the Fair Use defense because you obviously broke a law to obtain the copy you're arguing Fair Use for. DMCA is so evil because it claims to uphold the Fair Use defense while finding a devious means to ensure that someone who makes such an argument is already guilty.

      --
      "Please describe the scientific nature of the 'whammy'" - Agent Scully
    2. Re:DVD backups by crankyspice · · Score: 1

      The DMCA on its face does not affect fair use -- see 17 USC 1201(c). (I don't believe any court anywhere has ever held that making a reproduction of an entire copyrighted work -- a 'backup' -- constitutes fair use, unless it was analogous to a codified carve-out; the Diamond Rio decision compared "space shifting" to the private reproduction right conferred by the Audio Home Recording Act's carveout.) Too, I don't know of any courts that have said "fair use" gives you a right to use any means to reproduce a work; the alt.2600 cases pointed out that you could still point a camcorder at a TV set and capture a portion of a DVD title for commentary, etc. It would certainly be the easiest, most direct and error-free route to get a copy of a book's prepress files (PostScript or LaTeX or whatever) directly from O'Reilly, but I don't see anyone saying O'Reilly has to hand you the same, leaving you to manually copy the passages in via eyeball and keyboard (or scanner and OCR, etc).

      --
      geek. lawyer.
    3. Re:DVD backups by EvanED · · Score: 1

      he DMCA on its face does not affect fair use -- see 17 USC 1201(c).

      Um, this is full of crap. The DMCA on its face makes it illegal to circumvent protections, and doesn't provide any exemptions for fair use. This means that if you want to argue that it doesn't affect fair use, you have to argue that your fair use rights you're trying to exercise are constitutionally protected, and thus the DMCA provisions that outlawed them are unconstitutional.

      The fact that the DMCA provides provisions for the LOC to specify exemptions doesn't mean that it doesn't affect fair use; it means that there's a way for fair use to be dis-affected in the future. The fact that the LOC has yet to provide for such an exemption demonstrates that the DMCA does in fact affect your fair use rights (or at least the arguments you use to put them forth).

      (If instead the DMCA had said that the LOC specifies places where it's illegal, I would buy what you said; but the fact that the DMCA defaults exemption = illegal means that you're wrong.)

      I don't believe any court anywhere has ever held that making a reproduction of an entire copyrighted work -- a 'backup' -- constitutes fair use...

      Has it ever been tested? ...unless it was analogous to a codified carve-out; the Diamond Rio decision compared "space shifting" to the private reproduction right conferred by the Audio Home Recording Act's carveout

      Then we're in luck, because there's a codified carve-out for backups that you could reason from in an analogy. (See 17 USC 117 (a)(2).)

      It would certainly be the easiest, most direct and error-free route to get a copy of a book's prepress files (PostScript or LaTeX or whatever) directly from O'Reilly, but I don't see anyone saying O'Reilly has to hand you the same, leaving you to manually copy the passages in via eyeball and keyboard (or scanner and OCR, etc).

      This is a stupid analogy. The point is that if you're talking about, for instance, DVDs, the publisher does give you what you are seemingly saying is analogous to the preprocess files.

      The "correct" analogy if you want to argue about how it compares to book copyrights is if the law said you couldn't use scanners to copy the book, and the only thing you could do with it was read it, and that hand copying even quotes puts you into very questionable legal territory.

    4. Re:DVD backups by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, basically, everyone that has a license has the "right" to drive their car on the public roads, but one of those one-way, tire-tearing road gates at the end of everybody's driveway, pointed to damage the tires on the way our.

      People can drive across the gate and exercise their right to drive any time they like.

      Oh, and, please note that it's illegal to drive around the obstacle, drive with shredded tires, or to change tires on public roads. But, yes, of course you can drive your car on the roads. That's what they are for!

      Yup. Exercise those driving rights anytime you like.

      [hint: if you do not want to be a criminal, a right that you can't legally exercise may as well not exist, because it is inaccessible without breaking the law. The other option is to go ahead and be a criminal in the eyes of the law, and hope that nobody cares.]

    5. Re:DVD backups by crankyspice · · Score: 1

      he DMCA on its face does not affect fair use -- see 17 USC 1201(c).

      Um, this is full of crap. The DMCA on its face makes it illegal to circumvent protections, and doesn't provide any exemptions for fair use.

      Did you even *read* 17 USC 1201(c)? http://www.google.com/search?q=17+USC+1201(c) and the first link, http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode17/u sc_sec_17_00001201----000-.html: "Nothing in this section shall affect rights, remedies, limitations, or defenses to copyright infringement, including fair use . . ."

      I don't believe any court anywhere has ever held that making a reproduction of an entire copyrighted work -- a 'backup' -- constitutes fair use...

      Has it ever been tested?

      Repeatedly. The court in the first Napster decision does a thorough job tearing apart the 'fair use' argument vis-a-vis copying entire songs.

      unless it was analogous to a codified carve-out; the Diamond Rio decision compared "space shifting" to the private reproduction right conferred by the Audio Home Recording Act's carveout

      Then we're in luck, because there's a codified carve-out for backups that you could reason from in an analogy. (See 17 USC 117 (a)(2).)

      I addressed this in my first post. 117 applies only to "Computer programs." A motion picture is distinct from a computer program. (And before you make the inevitable "but it's code, on a disk, that requires a computer to read it," that doesn't make it a computer program, it makes it "a series of related images which are intrinsically intended to be shown by the use of machines, or devices such as projectors, viewers, or electronic equipment . . ." 17 USC 101. Sorry, 117 doesn't give us a carve-out for backing up a motion picture.

      As for my analogy, yeah, it wasn't perfect. But every court that's looked at the argument has come to the same conclusion -- fair use just means you get to do the reproduction, it doesn't mean you get to do the reproduction exactly as you'd prefer to do it. You can point a camcorder at the screen if it's that important to you. (I'd dig out the quote, but I don't have a matter number to assign the research to, and a casual /. discussion isn't worth incurring Lexis charges for :)

      --
      geek. lawyer.
    6. Re:DVD backups by EvanED · · Score: 1

      Did you even *read* 17 USC 1201(c)? http://www.google.com/search?q=17+USC+1201(c) and the first link, http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode17/u sc_sec_17_00001201----000-.html: "Nothing in this section shall affect rights, remedies, limitations, or defenses to copyright infringement, including fair use . . ."

      Ah, sorry. I opened that page, immediately scrolled down a little so the (a) and (1) were off the screen, saw the (C) belonging to the paragraph on the librarian of congress, and read that.

      My mistake.

      I'm still not sure that I buy that the DMCA doesn't affect fair use though. Even if it isn't illegal to circumvent for fair use purposes, it is still illegal to manufacture and market things that let you circumvent protections. Even if you could manufacture something that let you circumvent protections so that you could use it to bypass fair use with that being legal, you still can't sell anything, which means that the amount of tool support is diminished.

      The court in the first Napster decision does a thorough job tearing apart the 'fair use' argument vis-a-vis copying entire songs.

      The Napster case wasn't at all about backups. There's a lot more to the fair use guidelines than amount copied, so it could have failed on other counts. Unless the court actually said that copying full songs in and of itself is enough to throw out the fair use claim...

      I addressed this in my first post. 117 applies only to "Computer programs." A motion picture is distinct from a computer program.

      And yet you cited the Rio case, saying the courts argued that the time/space shifting was "analogous to" the AHRA's provisions. I was just saying that making backup copies of a DVD for instance could be viewed as "analogous to" 177's provisions.

      Though now that you bring it up, I wonder how well arguing that a DVD is a computer program would work. It's clearly also an audiovisual work, but I wonder if the courts would buy it... (nah, probably not.)

    7. Re:DVD backups by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 1

      Though now that you bring it up, I wonder how well arguing that a DVD is a computer program would work.

      Indeed it could. Blu-Ray players must include a JVM, and Blu-Ray disks may include Java code. Normal DVDs can and have been used for games, including Hentai/dating games. I imagine it's also accidentally Turing-complete.

      --
      Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
    8. Re:DVD backups by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the Diamond Rio decision compared "space shifting" to the private reproduction right conferred by the Audio Home Recording Act's carveout.
      Actually, I believe the Diamond Rio decision compared "space shifting" to "time shifting".

      You remember that one, where the Supreme Court said that copying an entire broadcast TV program and watching it later was legal Fair Use. They also said that in regards to technologies, copyright law should not automatically be construed in a way that would expand the artificial monopoly at the cost of the public.

    9. Re:DVD backups by DamnStupidElf · · Score: 1

      The DMCA didn't make it illegal to "back up" DVDs. That has always been true of audiovisual works; the reproduction right (17 USC 106) is exclusively reserved to the copyright holder, there's no AHRA-like carveout for movies / TV shows / other A/V works, and the "backup" provisions of 17 USC 117 apply only to computer software -- MPEG2-encoded A/V content is still A/V content, not computer software. The DMCA might have made it (theoretically) harder to reproduce DVDs, what with the anti-circumvention provisions, but no 'right' or legal ability to make a backup copy of an A/V work existed before the DMCA.

      I won't believe that nonsense until the RIAA has some way of ripping the memory of a song out of my head, and the MPAA can rip the memories of a movie I've seen out as well. Until then, there's no point in making arbitrary distinctions between wetware and software backups of copyrighted works. Fuck copyright. It's dead. The *AA are just worms gorging on the corpse, and when it's gone the worms die too.

    10. Re:DVD backups by elrous0 · · Score: 1
      In other words, you can copy a DVD movie, you just can't circumvent its copy protection scheme to do it--thereby making it impossible to copy the movie. Good luck with that. Maybe if you pray hard enough, God will come down and copy it for you.

      -Eric

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
  19. Another ironically-named bill by Intron · · Score: 1

    Put "Fair Use" with "Clear Skies", "Healthy Forests Initiative" and "No Child Left Behind".

    --
    Intron: the portion of DNA which expresses nothing useful.
  20. Licensing by TheRealMindChild · · Score: 1

    What really needs to happen is the utter destruction of the "Licensing" notion. This is where the customer will always be screwed because while you cry that "I own this... I should be able to do what I want with it", you dont REALLY own it. So you simply have no right to bitch about "Your Rights" when it wasnt yours to begin with.

    --

    "When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back!" -- Cave Johnson
  21. Not even close by viking80 · · Score: 1

    If anybody thinks the use congress will enact anything fair use, they are mistaken.
    Even the most fair-use oriented part of congress are with a great margin on the MPAA and RIAA side of things.

    Maybe the US needs a pirate party. http://www2.piratpartiet.se/international/english

    With the current balance in congress, a few seats may give great influence.

    --
    don't cut it off www.mgmbill.org
  22. Re:So my free software dvd player is still illegal by cybereal · · Score: 1

    I heard Norton is releasing a product to help with this. Something called The Clit Commander!

    --
    I read the script, and I think it would help my character's motivation if he was on fire. -Bender
  23. Creative commons, own your culture by Odinson · · Score: 3, Insightful
    I strongly recommend creating your own creative works, and releasing them under open licences. It's invigorating.

    You find yourself in the enlightened position of rooting for 100% effective enforcement of any laws on the books, while still being horrified at the stupidity of the 'we have way too much money, with little of it encouraging artists' lobby.

    There are some open authors and musicians and other creative types who are actually worthy of your attention who refuse to attack their fans. They show a subtle attention to your best interest that the heavy handed conglomerates can only wish to imitate

  24. Write your representative! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I just wrote my Representative. I asked him to propose ammendments to this bill that would repeal section 1201(the anti-circumvention section), and modify the damages awarded from $250,000 to $5 with supporting logic that this new number is still 5X more than plaintiffs are offering as settlement.

  25. Re:So my free software dvd player is still illegal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My pimp is gonna sue Norton for trademark infringement!

  26. Right... by Mark_MF-WN · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Right... even though now an estimated 120 million Americans use or have used content-trading tools?

    The RIAA can keep suing a few thousand people a year, and it wont mean a thing. This year's round of the flu probably stopped more music-traders by flat-out killing them than the RIAA has by their lawsuits and propaganda.

    All these laws mean is that the government is making itself more and more the enemy of the people, that the government is making itself more and more contemptible and despicable.

    Incidentally, do you think the guy that posted the article is aware that it was a Democratic-Party government that proposed the DMCA, Democratic-Party congressmen who gleefully passed it, and a Democratic-Party president who signed it into law? The fact that the Republicans adored it too (as if they could dislike anything that strips the people of freedoms) doesn't mean that the Ass party is going to suddenly develop some newfound love of consumer-rights.

    If the government makes itself redundant and stupid, the people will ignore its laws and do whatever they want. That's just the way it's always been. And I say this as someone who lives in a city with about a dozen Pot-smoking lounges that operate completely openly because even the cops have stopped giving a shit about laws that don't matter.

    1. Re:Right... by senatorpjt · · Score: 1

      Introduced in the House of Representatives as H.R. 2281 by Rep. Howard Coble (R-NC) on July 29, 1997

      The congress was also majority Republican (in both houses).

      Not that the Democrats did or would have done anything to stop it.

    2. Re:Right... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      | Introduced in the House of Representatives as H.R. 2281 by Rep. Howard Coble (R-NC)...

      Actually, it was introduced jointly by Coble, Barney Frank (D-MA), John Conyers (D-MI), and Henry Hyde(R-IL), and signed into law by Bill Clinton on Oct. 28, 1998 as Public Law 105-304.

      We can thank both parties for this one.

    3. Re:Right... by Fnkmaster · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Nothing like the true spirit of bipartisanship! Sometimes it seems like fucking over the citizenry is the only thing that the Democrats and the Republicans can actually agree on.

  27. Why not play dirty? by electrosoccertux · · Score: 1

    So the stupid provisions get tacked onto bills like a giant military spending bill. This guy should do the same. That way when people vote against it, we can say "See? These guys are helping terrorists" and get rid of the media company whores et al.

  28. F.A.I.R. U.S.E.? by RealGrouchy · · Score: 1

    "Forget All Intellectual Rights Users Should Expect"?

    j/k

    - RG>

    --
    Hey pal, this isn't a pleasantforest, so don't waste my time with pleasantries!
    1. Re:F.A.I.R. U.S.E.? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Intellectual Right? Is that like the Religious Left?

    2. Re:F.A.I.R. U.S.E.? by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      Intellectual Right? Is that like the Religious Left?

            Yep, it's what you get after all the religious people leave...

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
  29. another incorrect use of "content" by brre · · Score: 2, Interesting
    "make it easier for digital media consumers to use the content they buy."

    In fact what's owned, bought, and protected (or not) here is expression, not content.

    If you learn that the Earth is round from watching that digital video, you're free to share that fact with anyone you like. The copyright holders can't do a thing about it.

  30. Tilt the balance of copyright? by noidentity · · Score: 3, Insightful

    "The Digital Millennium Copyright Act dramatically tilted the copyright balance toward complete copyright protection at the expense of the public's right to fair use..."

    That's the thing, copyright was created for the public's benefit and nobody else's! It's not like rights and freedom where there's a tradeoff between mine (I can do anything!) and what they impose on you (that means I can restrict you). With copyright, it's "hey, we want more material available to us, so we will make it worth your while by giving you a short monopoly". Well, it was.

  31. Clinton couldn't have stopped them by tepples · · Score: 1

    It takes a 3/2 vote from both houses to override a presidential veto, not 99-0 The point is to demonstrate that President Clinton had no chance of stopping the DMCA or the Bono Act. It takes >= 67% assent to override a veto, and these bills had 99% assent.
    1. Re:Clinton couldn't have stopped them by Barlo_Mung_42 · · Score: 1

      I had no idea the issue was so slanted towards assent back then. Since this is the internet and all can you point to a source? No offence, 99% is just a bit shocking for such a bad bit of legislation.

  32. Cause it's already there by anthony_dipierro · · Score: 1

    Yet again, the bill does not appear to deliver on what most observers want: clear protection for making personal use copies of encrypted materials.

    Section 107 of Title 17 already does that: "the fair use of a copyrighted work...is not an infringement of copyright". Even the DMCA itself says that "Nothing in this section shall affect rights, remedies, limitations, or defenses to copyright infringement, including fair use, under this title."

  33. Go outside and play? by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 1

    Nothing short of that kind of attitude would win here, because otherwise, it's one gigantic fucking trap. 99% of laptops come with Windows, so even if you don't use it, you're still paying Microsoft -- and the entertainment world is similar.

    So it comes down to: Either stop watching movies or TV altogether, or pirate them, or beg our government to smack them around and maybe even try to put some cracks in that oligopoly so we get some real competition.

    Because the sad truth is, there is no competition. It's pretty much like trying to use a computer without supporting Microsoft, or owning a car without supporting oil companies. It can be done, but it's not easy, and it almost defeats the purpose, and they won't care about you and the other three guys who do this.

    So, I hope they are running enough statistics to notice how I vote with my dollars: I don't buy DVDs, I rent them, rip them, watch them when I have the time, re-encode them, then delete them when I really need space. I don't buy music CDs, I borrow them or buy songs from non-RIAA sources. I don't watch TV, I download shows. And yes, I realize I'm giving them an excuse to crack down harder, because I'm a "pirate", but if they ever drag me into court, and can prove I'm a pirate, I will use the opportunity to point out that they are the cause of my piracy, and maybe even try to make a legal case around that -- but hopefully it'll let me deliver things like "It's as legal for me to pirate stuff as it is for me to watch a DVD on my computer" to a receptive jury.

    --
    Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
  34. I hope they care by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 1

    This is called "civil disobedience." I hope they find me, and put me on a big, expensive trial, then I ask for donations to pay for legal fees, get Slashdotted, and use the opportunity to fight the DMCA head-on. I'm not sure whether it's constitutional, but it kind of directly supports one oligopoly and another monopoly...

    --
    Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
  35. offshore the copying by WingedEarth · · Score: 1

    Don't worry, you can always copy materials in a jurisdiction where its not illegal, like Sealand.

  36. Re:So my free software dvd player is still illegal by anthony_dipierro · · Score: 1

    Would I still be breaking the law every time I play a legally purchased DVD on my Linux-based computer using decss-derived software?

    Are you doing so now?

    Though on the other hand, being able to say "I am breaking the law every time I watch a DVD on my computer" is a simple and clear way to demonstrate how crazy copyright has become by outlawing what is so obviously ethical behavior.

    The problem is, I bet you can't come up with a single instance of someone who was convicted or even charged with copyright infringement simply because they watched a DVD on their computer. You can't point out how crazy a law is by making up a hypothetical situation and then claiming that the law covers it. The DMCA says quite plainly that it does not affect fair use. If you want to claim otherwise, the burden is on you to prove that your interpretation is correct.

  37. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  38. Re:So my free software dvd player is still illegal by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1

    Are you doing so now?

    Assuming you don't mean right now, fucking of course I am. It's a ludicrous law, and I will not respect it. I bought the fucking DVD, I'm going to watch it and not feel guilty. I also occasionally travel in my motor vehicle above the posted speed limit, should I feel the safety considerations allow for it, and that's pretty well established in case law as illegal I would say. Just call me a rebel.

    The problem is, I bet you can't come up with a single instance of someone who was convicted or even charged with copyright infringement simply because they watched a DVD on their computer. You can't point out how crazy a law is by making up a hypothetical situation and then claiming that the law covers it. The DMCA says quite plainly that it does not affect fair use. If you want to claim otherwise, the burden is on you to prove that your interpretation is correct.

    The DMCA also says quite plainly that breaking an access control without permission is a crime regardless of whether or not you subsequently violate copyright. The DMCA makes criminal things that have nothing to do with copyright violation.

    It can't be enforced, just like speed limits can't beyond a limited extent, but it's still a criminal act. I may speed, but I don't flaunt it in front of the cops. If you're going to tell me something is legal, when there are penalties for an incorrect interpretation of the law, then I'm sorry but it's you who hold the burden of proof.

    --

    The enemies of Democracy are
  39. Be wary... by Je-Tze · · Score: 0

    Be very wary of anything that Doolittle has a hand in.

    I haven't RTFA'd yet, nor the bill, so i'm not commenting on wether it's bad, good, or otherwise.
    But Doolittle is not to be trusted. Even more so than most politicians.

    --
    jz (Je-Tze)
  40. Pirate Party US by FunWithKnives · · Score: 1

    We already have one. They're currently looking for graphic artists, lawyers, and writers/journalists that would like to help out, as well as researchers to contribute to the State Ballots wiki. Any help is greatly appreciated, I'm sure, even if it's just a small donation.

    --
    "We may face a scorched and lifeless earth, but they're accountable to their shareholders first."
  41. Hold on! by remmelt · · Score: 1

    > stopped more music-traders by flat-out killing them

    Don't give these people ideas.

    1. Re:Hold on! by Mark_MF-WN · · Score: 1

      Given their current level of success, the RIAA would probably only manage to kill a few dozen music traders, plus a few hundred people that DON'T trade music, and finally encourage (indirectly) several million people to go out and have new children that then become music traders.

  42. Why would chances be better? by rdean400 · · Score: 1

    The Democrats are just as beholden to special interest groups (in this case, big media companies -- liberals in Hollywood donate to liberals in Washington) as the Republicans. At least the Republicans had a (dubious) principle upon which they based their decision. The Democrats are so afraid of getting cut off from their campaign donations that they won't do anything to upset the MPAA or RIAA.

  43. Re:So my free software dvd player is still illegal by anthony_dipierro · · Score: 1

    Assuming you don't mean right now, fucking of course I am. It's a ludicrous law, and I will not respect it. I bought the fucking DVD, I'm going to watch it and not feel guilty

    Ah, you misunderstood my question. It wasn't whether or not you were watching DVDs on Linux, but whether you were breaking the law by doing so.

    The DMCA also says quite plainly that breaking an access control without permission is a crime regardless of whether or not you subsequently violate copyright.

    So there is a contradiction, and it comes down to which part overrides the other. Since the part about fair use explicitly references the rest of the DMCA, I'd say it's pretty obvious that part overrides the other parts: "Nothing in this section shall affect rights, remedies, limitations, or defenses to copyright infringement, including fair use, under this title."

    The DMCA makes criminal things that have nothing to do with copyright violation.

    Violating the DMCA is a copyright violation.

    It can't be enforced, just like speed limits can't beyond a limited extent, but it's still a criminal act. I may speed, but I don't flaunt it in front of the cops.

    But speed limits can be enforced to some extent, and I can point out multiple examples of people who were charged with speeding (whether or not speeding is a criminal act actually varies from state to state, though).

    If you want to keep the speeding analogy though, would you complain that it's illegal to rush your

    If you're going to tell me something is legal, when there are penalties for an incorrect interpretation of the law, then I'm sorry but it's you who hold the burden of proof.

    I'm sorry, but until you show me some shred of evidence that the DMCA makes it illegal to watch DVDs using Linux, I'm not going to buy it. The DMCA clearly says that it does not override fair use. The judge in Felton v. RIAA clearly said that the DMCA did not override fair use (when Felton tried to make an argument very similar to yours). No one has ever been charged for watching a DVD on Linux.

  44. References for DMCA and Bono Act voice votes by tepples · · Score: 1

    I had no idea the issue was so slanted towards assent back then. Since this is the internet and all can you point to a source? Look in the references of Bono Act in Wikipedia and DMCA in Wikipedia. Where you see "voice vote", read "81% to 100% assent", as 20% of either house can force a roll-call vote.
  45. Not enough cops, soldiers, courts, or prisons... by dido · · Score: 1

    There are not enough police, there are not enough soldiers, not enough courts, not enough prisons in the United States--or in any country in the world for that matter--to enforce a law that the public doesn't agree with. The art of governing is largely the art of convincing the governed that they are better off following the laws than not, especially if it is a law that touches almost everyone as these changes to copyright do. Thus far, these stalwarts have only succeeded in convincing the public only in a limited sense, and these heavy handed tactics that the RIAA and its ilk are using are, in a way, having the opposite effect.

    The power of government really always is with the people, whether the form of government recognizes it or not.

    --
    Qu'on me donne six lignes écrites de la main du plus honnête homme, j'y trouverai de quoi le faire pendre.
  46. Comparison to Ideal by 4of12 · · Score: 1

    How does this bill compare to what I believe are a reasonable set of rights like this?

    Inasmuch as

    • the marketplace for purchasing legislation is rather distorted with only two sellers (D and R = $) and is pratically opaque and
    • as most voters are more concerned/distracted with the battle over Anna Nicole Smith's burial than DMCA, and
    • as most voters probably don't even know what the DMCA is.
    I expect money (which is needed to retain power in the periodic incumbent fest elections) will again streamroll this bill.
    --
    "Provided by the management for your protection."
  47. Contact your Representative by godzilla808 · · Score: 1

    If you think that the DMCA needs fixing, this is at least a start. EFF has an e-mail template that you can customize and send to your Representative directly from their site. It only takes a few minutes. On their main page, click on "Support the FAIR USE Act!" http://www.eff.org/

    --
    ...///...
  48. Doesn't matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What's your crypto skills like? Programming skills? If they are BOTH up to the task, then you can break encryption. However, you cannot pass that knowledge on to others (trading in decrypt tools to bypass copy protection is illegal). So only those whose skills in the right areas are up to the task can enact Fair Use.

    Doesn't make it much of a right, does it...

  49. Re:So my free software dvd player is still illegal by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1

    It wasn't whether or not you were watching DVDs on Linux, but whether you were breaking the law by doing so.

    Sorry, I thought you were asking something that the post you replied to hadn't already stated plainly.

    So there is a contradiction, and it comes down to which part overrides the other. Since the part about fair use explicitly references the rest of the DMCA, I'd say it's pretty obvious that part overrides the other parts: "Nothing in this section shall affect rights, remedies, limitations, or defenses to copyright infringement, including fair use, under this title."

    There's no contradiction at all. Fair use is a valid defense against copyright infringement, but it is not a valid defense against circumventing an access control because circumventing an access control is not copyright infringement. Describing how to circumvent an access control is not copyright infringement. It is a new, separate crime created by the DMCA. At no point does the actual creation of an unauthorized copy, public performance, or other copyright violations have to come into play for the actions defined by the DMCA to be illegal.

    Violating the DMCA is a copyright violation.

    No, it isn't, and I challenge you to show the language that says it is. Breaking an access control mechanism is a crime unto itself, separate from copyright. You're argument is akin to arguing that a defense against theft is a defense against B&E since B&E is theft. No, B&E is a separate crime, one that is often applied on top of theft but can also be charged separately if theft cannot be proven but B&E can. Similarly, you can violate a provision of the DMCA without comitting copyright infringement.

    I have a real hard time believing that you really think Sec. 1201 which says "No person shall manufacture, import, offer to the public, provide or otherwise traffic in any technology, product, service, device, component, or part thereof that-- `(A) is primarily designed or produced for the purpose of circumventing a technological protection measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title;" is talking about copyright infringement. How is manufacturing such a device an act of copyright infringement? It isn't. The only copyright work involved is one that the device could hypothetically be used to acces. It is, however, a crime to manufacture such a device. In Sony vs Filipak exactly this came up, and Filipak lost despite not actually violating copyright. Their devices violated the DMCA.

    But speed limits can be enforced to some extent

    Many things, including the DMCA, can be enforced to some extent, it's just obviously difficult to prove that someone at some point broke an access control. Many things, including speed limits or jay walking, are as a practical matter not strictly enforced because they're hard to prove without an officer of the law standing there watching you do it. Depending on where you go, e.g. Montana interstates, they may not be enforced to any significant extent. Enforcement is really irrelevent to the question of legality. An impossible to enforce law may be a bad law, but it is still law.

    If you want to keep the speeding analogy though, would you complain that it's illegal to rush your

    Not sure where you were going, but it sounds like you're going to ask me something irrelevent, like "such and such is illegal, do you mind?" Maybe, maybe not, either way it has nothing to do with the question of what the DMCA does or does not make illegal. If they made wearing orange socks illegal I would complain, they probably couldn't enforce it either, but it would still be illegal.

    I'm sorry, but until you show me some shred of evidence that the DMCA makes it illegal to watch DVDs using Linux, I'm not going to buy it.

    You know I seem to remember you arguing that you had to accept the GPL to run free software because the act of running the program created

    --

    The enemies of Democracy are
  50. Re:So my free software dvd player is still illegal by anthony_dipierro · · Score: 1

    Violating the DMCA is a copyright violation.

    No, it isn't, and I challenge you to show the language that says it is.

    I don't believe "copyright violation" is defined in the law, so it is merely a colloquial term. I think a reasonable definition for "copyright violation" would be "a violation of copyright law", and you agree with me that the DMCA is part of copyright law, right?

    Breaking an access control mechanism is a crime unto itself, separate from copyright.

    Breaking an access control mechanism is a crime listed in Title 17 of the US Code, and the heading of Title 17 is "Copyrights". In fact, DMCA stands for Digital Millenium Copyright Act. So of course it's part of copyright law, not separate.

    I have a real hard time believing that you really think Sec. 1201 which says "No person shall manufacture, import, offer to the public, provide or otherwise traffic in any technology, product, service, device, component, or part thereof that-- `(A) is primarily designed or produced for the purpose of circumventing a technological protection measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title;" is talking about copyright infringement.

    Well good, because I don't. I said it was a copyright violation, as in a violation of copyright law, not copyright infringement, which is defined in the code.

    You know I seem to remember you arguing that you had to accept the GPL to run free software because the act of running the program created a copy which would be illegal without the authorization provided by the GPL, despite there being an explicit exception for such copies in copyright law.

    No, I certainly didn't say that. You never have to accept the GPL. Of course, if you do run free software in a way which creates copies not explicitly provided by the GPL, then the GPL is automatically revoked.

    Forgive me if I find your legal theories suspect.

    Only if you get your facts straight.

    But if you want your case, try Sony vs Filipak. It wasn't specifically about Linux and DVDs, however it does clearly indicate a case where an action which is not copyright infringement was illegal, copyright infringement was not alleged, and thus fair use defenses did not apply.

    Filipak was trafficking in circumvention tools for commercial purposes, not merely using the tools for non-profit purposes. So I don't see how fair use defenses would apply. Also, a quick google search for "Sony filipak "fair use"" yields nothing, so I don't see that fair use was even raised in that case.

  51. Re:So my free software dvd player is still illegal by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1

    I don't believe "copyright violation" is defined in the law, so it is merely a colloquial term. I think a reasonable definition for "copyright violation" would be "a violation of copyright law", and you agree with me that the DMCA is part of copyright law, right?

    Sure, but that's irrelevent. I assumed you were using "violation" and "infringement" interchangeably. Now I see that your whole argument was baseless to begin with, since only by conflating DMCA violation with Copyright Infringement were you able to have a point.

    I have a real hard time believing that you really think Sec. 1201 which says "No person shall manufacture, import, offer to the public, provide or otherwise traffic in any technology, product, service, device, component, or part thereof that-- `(A) is primarily designed or produced for the purpose of circumventing a technological protection measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title;" is talking about copyright infringement.

    Well good, because I don't. I said it was a copyright violation, as in a violation of copyright law, not copyright infringement, which is defined in the code.

    Fantastic! Then I should be able to wrap this up neatly:

    1) Violating the access control provisions of the DMCA is not Copyright Infringement -- mutually agreed.

    2) Fair Use is a defense only against Copyright Infringement -- U.S. Code Title 17, Chapter 1, Section 107: "Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright."

    3) Fair Use is not a defense against DMCA access control provision violations -- by (1) and (2)

    Q.E.D.

    No, I certainly didn't say that. You never have to accept the GPL. Of course, if you do run free software in a way which creates copies not explicitly provided by the GPL, then the GPL is automatically revoked.


    You certainly did! Prepare to get pwned by the power of Google!

    http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=61839&thre shold=0&commentsort=0&mode=thread&pid=5800562#5801 157
    "Which is exactly what the GPL does implicitly by stating that "by modifying or distributing the Program (or any work based on the Program), you indicate your acceptance of this License to do so." I'd like to see you install something without modifying it."

    Okay, you said "modify" not "copy", but essentially the same baseless argument.

    I know it isn't really relevent since I've already proven you wrong. It was still funny seeing how you used very similar word games to make it look like you had a point there, too, only to have it evaporate.

    Filipak was trafficking in circumvention tools for commercial purposes, not merely using the tools for non-profit purposes. So I don't see how fair use defenses would apply. Also, a quick google search for "Sony filipak "fair use"" yields nothing, so I don't see that fair use was even raised in that case.


    It wasn't raised in the case because copyright infringement wasn't in the case! Fair use defenses would not apply because there is no fair use defense against things that aren't copyright infringement!

    That's exactly the point. It was a DMCA case that was prosecuted without any instance of copyright infringement being alleged.

    Did you know that fair use didn't come up once in Timothy McVeigh's trial? I guess the jury is still out on whether fair use is a valid defense against murder.

    --

    The enemies of Democracy are
  52. Re:So my free software dvd player is still illegal by anthony_dipierro · · Score: 1

    3) Fair Use is not a defense against DMCA access control provision violations -- by (1) and (2)

    OK, I can agree with that: Section 107 is not a defense against DMCA access control provision violations.

    "Which is exactly what the GPL does [attempts] implicitly by stating that "by modifying or distributing the Program (or any work based on the Program), you indicate your acceptance of this License to do so." I'd like to see you install something without modifying it."

    I was referring there to a claim which the GPL makes. I don't think that claim is correct. In fact, I think that claim is ridiculous, and it seems that you agree with me. The GPL claims that by modifying or distributing the Program you indicate your acceptance of the GPL. But that's nonsense - the same nonsense that other EULAs try to pull.

    You accused me of "arguing that you had to accept the GPL to run free software because the act of running the program created a copy which would be illegal without the authorization provided by the GPL". I did no such thing. I argued that the GPL claims that you accept it when you run it. Big difference.

  53. Re:So my free software dvd player is still illegal by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1

    OK, I can agree with that: Section 107 is not a defense against DMCA access control provision violations.

    Hooray, logic prevails! Welcome to 1998, glad to have you join us.

    I did no such thing. I argued that the GPL claims that you accept it when you run it.

    Oh, okay, that almost makes sense. Now, I'm quite certain the GPL is not intended to make that claim. For one, the authors of the GPL have always made that intent clear, and Eben Moglen has always been aware of and supportive of fair use rights. For two, the GPL contains specific language addressing this: "The act of running the Program is not restricted". I'll accept there is ambiguity in the language. You could argue that the act of running the program is not restricted, but the copy necessarily made when running the program is. I think that's a stretch, but it's plausible. Since a lot of contract interpretation is about intent, I think the Preamble would make it difficult for you to make that argument stick in court -- even before you got to the fact that fair use makes the argument moot.

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    The enemies of Democracy are
  54. Re:So my free software dvd player is still illegal by anthony_dipierro · · Score: 1

    Hooray, logic prevails! Welcome to 1998, glad to have you join us.

    Sucks to be here, but thanks for the greeting. By the way, I still don't think you could win a case against someone based solely on their circumvention of a protection system in order to watch a DVD on Linux, but I now realize that it's not anywhere near as cut and dry as I made it out to be.

    I did no such thing. I argued that the GPL claims that you accept it when you run it.

    Oh, okay, that almost makes sense. Now, I'm quite certain the GPL is not intended to make that claim.

    Agreed, though personally I think any license which claims that you automatically accept it when you do X is making a ridiculous claim.

    For two, the GPL contains specific language addressing this: "The act of running the Program is not restricted". I'll accept there is ambiguity in the language. You could argue that the act of running the program is not restricted, but the copy necessarily made when running the program is.

    Well, I wouldn't make that argument. In fact, I think the whole part about automatically accepting the license is completely unenforcible.

    Since a lot of contract interpretation is about intent, I think the Preamble would make it difficult for you to make that argument stick in court -- even before you got to the fact that fair use makes the argument moot.

    That actually raises an incredibly complex issue, though. Whose intent is supposed to be interpreted? Unless Eben Moglen is the author or the copyright holder (or maybe the licensee), I don't see how his intent matters. If we're dealing with a simple case of one person granting a second person a license under the GPL, then it is their intent that matters. But it's usually not that simple, and you're talking about multiple people granting a license under the GPL to everyone in the world. I have no idea what a court is going to do to determine intent in that kind of case.

    Another complicated issue is that of the termination clause. According to the GPLv2, if you "copy, modify, sublicense, or distribute the Program except as expressly provided under this License" (or even attempt to do so), your license is automatically revoked. Now what if that copying, modification, or distribution didn't require a license? For instance, it could be fair use, or it could be first sale, or it could be the exercise of your rights under Section 117 (software installation). If you do this in a way not expressly provided under the GPL, do you forfeit your rights under the GPL? This is actually resolved in GPLv3, which requires notification before termination. But under GPLv2, it's really an open question.