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New Royalty Rates Could Kill Internet Radio

FlatCatInASlatVat writes "Kurt Hanson's Radio Internet Newsletter has an analysis of the new royalty rates for Internet Radio announced by the US Copyright Office. The decision is likely to put most internet radio stations out of business by making the cost of broadcasting much higher than revenues. From the article: 'The Copyright Royalty Board is rejecting all of the arguments made by Webcasters and instead adopting the "per play" rate proposal put forth by SoundExchange (a digital music fee collection body created by the RIAA)...[The] math suggests that the royalty rate decision — for the performance alone, not even including composers' royalties! — is in the in the ballpark of 100% or more of total revenues.'"

19 of 273 comments (clear)

  1. surprised??? never... by advocate_one · · Score: 4, Insightful

    they want to kill the little guys off and just have the field to themselves.

    --
    Donald 'Duck' Dunn: We had a band powerful enough to turn goat piss into gasoline.
    1. Re:surprised??? never... by Goldberg's+Pants · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The problem is that most people aren't going to know about this. What I'd propose is that ALL internet radio stations that will suffer by this stage a day or two of action, synchronized. The busiest hours are probably 9am-5pm EST, so go black for one day, with a message explaining why.

      The only reason the RIAA keeps getting away with this shit is because nobody is willing to stand up to them. If the radio stations banded together for one day of action to draw attention to the issue, maybe something will change, but it's gotta be done very soon, as I believe they only have two weeks to appeal.

      The only stations I listen to are independent and have no RIAA music, but I really don't want to see the option go away. If it does, what are we left with? Your local Clear Channel owned station, and other "genre of the week" stations that satisfy nobody.

    2. Re:surprised??? never... by rolfwind · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Don't do it that way. Have a message playing in between the songs about the looming threat. Have several different messages in between songs about what the people can do. (Maybe key person to contact or website to go to.)

      A person is more likely to listen more than 30 seconds of the important message if there is some payoff (more music) and a station is more willing to do something like that than lose all or most of their audience to a competitor who isn't doing the blackout thing.

    3. Re:surprised??? never... by Dred_furst · · Score: 5, Insightful

      theres another solution, switch servers to one that isn't based in an RIAA controlled country.

    4. Re:surprised??? never... by Znork · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I dont have that much against mandatory royalties on revenue generating activities. If we truly need an 'incentive' for creativity they're more compatible with a free market than monopoly rights. And they're far easier to measure and manage for the least damage/most benefit to the economy.

      The first problem with the current setup is that it's put under industry administration (whose interests are vastly divergent with both most musicians and the public, witness the current example), when in fact it's a tax and should be under government administration. That way it'd be subject to the same constraints as other taxation forms; is it reasonably equitably collected, do we get our money's worth from the spending (ie, does it finance as many artists and creators as possible for the money we're willing to spend?), is this a reasonable level of expenditure? What's more, we could actually measure the number of new works and how they change depending on the level of spending so we could finally get real data rather than imaginary numbers made up to support organized con men.

      The second problem is that the RIAA corps are excluded. If we need an incentive for creative endeavors, _any_ revenue generating activity using 'copyrighted' material should be subject to the same taxation, wether plays on the radio, sales over the internet or the printing of CD's. Remove the 'copy' aspect of 'copyright' and replace it with a generalized non-transferrable 'incentiveright'. Allow free copying, printing and distribution of materials, let anyone from your local supermarket to online shops freely copy the material, as long as they pay a percentage of any revenue as 'incentive tax'/'royalty', and make sure the incentive actually goes to the creators. And make sure it goes to them in appropriate portions to maximise creativity.

      Imagine the possibilities; you could go to the local supermarket and print a CD with whatever tracks you want on it. You could buy an USB disk of the nights music at a club. You could get a complete recording of the show when you exit a concert. Without copyright but with a simple levy on the revenue, whole hosts of new business and value opportunities would open up, while still maintaining a (more measurable) incentive for creativity.

    5. Re:surprised??? never... by jakoz · · Score: 4, Interesting

      What surprises me is how this is assumed to have an effect on internet radio.

      I am a shoutcast fiend. I scan the top stations every day or two. Hardly any of the stations (even the popular ones) play RIAA music.

      Why would it make any difference what they charge if it doesn't get played? They should be paying people to get their shit out there to get it on the air. If they don't (and they won't) then something else will be.

      I would say that I welcome the coming revolution, except that it's so far underway that I'd be missing the boat. Their content is shit, and everyone except the marketing guys recognize it...

    6. Re:surprised??? never... by digitig · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The first problem with the current setup is that it's put under industry administration (whose interests are vastly divergent with both most musicians and the public, witness the current example), when in fact it's a tax and should be under government administration. That way it'd be subject to the same constraints as other taxation forms; is it reasonably equitably collected, do we get our money's worth from the spending (ie, does it finance as many artists and creators as possible for the money we're willing to spend?), is this a reasonable level of expenditure? What's more, we could actually measure the number of new works and how they change depending on the level of spending so we could finally get real data rather than imaginary numbers made up to support organized con men. So we would only have access to music that the government approves of? Bad luck all the acts who are critical of the government, from Pete Seeger through Steve Earle to The Dixie Chicks, and bad luck any genres that are percieved as "evil", from blues and rock 'n' roll ("the Devil's music") to Gangsta Rap ("promotes violence"). Do you really want your senator choosing what you can listen to? Then you must have more trust in your government in the USA than I have in mine here in the UK. Having these choices in the hands of industry may be bad, but passing it to government looks to me to be even worse.
      --
      Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
    7. Re:surprised??? never... by PopeRatzo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      theres another solution, switch servers to one that isn't based in an RIAA controlled country.


      Dred,
      you have hit on the ultimate solution to all idiotic intellectual property laws. In some years, it will have been a good thing that the Internet caused the end of IP as we know it. Stories like this one, showing how little the "gatekeepers" of recorded music really understand about how people use their product, are starting to pop up at such an alarming rate that the crash must be near.
      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    8. Re:surprised??? never... by KKlaus · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No offense, but this is a terrible idea. Who has the authority to decide what is "valuable"? Britney spears was very popular. Does that make her more valuable? Andy Mckee is a fabulous musician, but relatively obscure. Is he then less valuable, or more because what he does is more difficult and complex?

      Whatever you think is the answer is irrelevant, because the point is that a huge number of people will disagree with you. Whatever answer is legislated, a lot of people are going to be upset when, in their opinion, they're spending money incentivising the wrong thing. And what if I don't listen to music? Am I exempt, or is funding the pleasures of others a reasonable thing to be required of me?

      I don't know why having some sort of committee deciding what artists should be paid seems appealing, and that is what it would ultimately come down to. The free market _can_ work here, it just doesn't because we have stupid copyright laws, and a cartel that no one seems willing to take on. That doesn't make a nonsensical socialist program the answer.

      --
      Relax I just want some peanuts.
  2. Shouldn't the title be.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "New Royalty Rates Could Kill (Legal) Internet Radio"?

  3. Opportunity by Xiroth · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Huh. Big opportunity here for independent artists looking to get heard. Wonder if this'll backfire like...well, just about every other money-grabbing scheme from the RIAA and co.

  4. When will they learn....? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    There has grown up in the minds of certain groups in this country the notion that because a man or corporation has made a profit out of the public for a number of years, the government and the courts are charged with the duty of guaranteeing such profit in the future, even in the face of changing circumstances and contrary public interest. This strange doctrine is not supported by statute nor common law. Neither individuals nor corporations have any right to come into court and ask that the clock of history be stopped or turned back, for their private benefit.
    -Robert Heinlein "Lifeline"

  5. OK...That's solved by not playing RIAA music. by the_REAL_sam · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Right?

    Streaming audio isn't a crime.

    --
    "Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us." -Jesus Christ The Lord's Prayer
  6. What's really wrong with this by dbcad7 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Unlike conventional radio stations, more listeners costs the station more money. Imagine what would happen if local radio and TV stations were charged extra based upon the numbers of viewers and listners.. I doubt that would fly.

    --
    waiting for ad.doubleclick.net
  7. Genuine solution is actually really easy by DigitAl56K · · Score: 5, Interesting

    When faced with the RIAA monopoly, many people propose a boycott that is unrealistic: People won't stop buying CDs, downloading from iTunes, or the like.

    What needs to happen is for Internet radio stations to turn to independent labels. Consumers will buy the music they hear. If Internet radio stations commit to changing the majority of their playlist to artists on non-RIAA labels then the majority of profits will be diverted from the RIAA - they don't get per play royalties and they don't get royalties on purchases. It's a double-whammy. If you look at something like eMusic today, which doesn't carry the RIAA labels, you will quickly find that a little digging turns up more great music than you might actually expect. And it's not just Internet stations that should make the change - everyone can benefit from getting out of this monopoly stranglehold. The RIAA might eventually have to propose competitive terms to survive, artists will be better compensated, and labels which are smaller today will be able to grow faster not only because they will see a greater percentage of royalties, but because the best artists will be less drawn to the RIAA labels in the first place.

    Perhaps, though, the RIAA is already starting to feel some bite, and this is why their proposed fees are so high. If you're paying 100% of your revenues to the RIAA, you aren't paying anything to the indie's.

    1. Re:Genuine solution is actually really easy by DigitAl56K · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I'd like to follow up my own submission with some further thought. Unfortunately it's either late at night here, or early in the morning, depending on how you look at it, and further thought takes some time ;)

      One of the other arguments that is often offered in the case for independent labels is that the music is more authentic, creative, and less 'manufactured'. However, to truly displace the RIAA we should realize that it is necessary to cater to the mass markets that they currently serve. It is difficult to instantly change the listening habits and genre preference of millions of people, therefor an effective program would rely on enough mainstream pop, rap, hip-hop, etc. music to be produced by independents and marketed in a way which reaches younger generations and begins to draw their attention from traditional RIAA artists.

      Never in our history have we been so prepared and capable to tackle this problem. Modern music technology and tools in combination with the Internet helps to level the playing field, at least somewhat, such that professional sound is in reach of the amateur through virtual instruments and production software that can be purchased for only hundreds of dollars, while co-ordinated marketing across popular sites contributing to the cause could compete with major budgeting spends by big labels.

      If there were enough contributors to undertake such a concerted movement it might be interesting to set up something akin to sourceforge, e.g. a "musicforge", where independent artists collaborated to produce substitutes for mainstream media and served them to Internet radio stations, at least as a beginning, to help drive the change. If mainstream music is really as formulaic as we often claim it to be, in theory reproducing it to a reasonable standard should not be impossible or even very difficult.

      Just some thoughts :)

  8. My email to the RIAA by EPDowd · · Score: 5, Insightful

    RIAA, I am very puzzled. I used to find out about new recordings that I might want to buy, by hearing them on the radio. For quite some time now it seems that Radio stations, AM and FM, all seem to play the same tiny group of music, over and over. I never hear the music I buy, and play at home, played on the radio. When people started using the Internet to make small "Internet only" stations there were enough of them so that I once again had a way to find out about new stuff. How would I ever buy it if I did not know that it existed? This morning I read: "Kurt Hanson's Radio Internet Newsletter has an analysis of the new royalty rates for Internet Radio announced by the US Copyright Office. The decision is likely to put most Internet radio stations out of business by making the cost of broadcasting much higher than revenues. From the article: 'The Copyright Royalty Board is rejecting all of the arguments made by Webcasters and instead adopting the "per play" rate proposal put forth by SoundExchange (a digital music fee collection body created by the RIAA)...[The] math suggests that the royalty rate decision -- for the performance alone, not even including composers' royalties! -- is in the in the ballpark of 100% or more of total revenues." I am puzzled. It seems to me that you are killing the best, largest, and only way for me, and others, to find out about new music from the artists that you say you are representing. For the life of me I cannot figure out why you are doing this. I can't buy it if I don't know it exists. I like Bluegrass, Swing Band, 1950's oldies, Traditional Country, Traditional Western, Western Swing, some Jazz, and several other types of music. I hear a very small portion of this, once in a great while on the radio. But so rarely that it is not worth sitting through the usual tiny, bland, group of stuff that is normally played. Most of it is just not played anywhere except on the Internet. Please let me know how you think I am going to find out about the music you want me to buy.

    --
    73 49 111 01001001
  9. Clear Channel loses big, too by zeropointburn · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Disclaimer: The company I work for is owned by Clear Channel. These comments are my own views and do not reflect the views of my employers.

      Have you considered who will be paying the most? This year, every Clear Channel station in the top 100 markets will be simulcast streaming. That's on the order of 1,300 stations, +/- 100 or so. Since I've already done the math, I'll clue you in.
      Using an average of one song per four minutes, each station will be playing 131,400 songs per year. That's $144.54 per station per listener. TFA quotes 500 listeners as average; that works out to:

    100 listeners: $14,454 --- 500 listeners: $72,270 --- 1,000 listeners: $144,540

    At 1,300 stations or so, that means this ruling will cost Clear Channel:

    100/station: $18.8m --- 500/station: $94m --- 1,000/station: $188m

    I can tell you firsthand they are not making that kind of revenue on their streaming side. Clear Channel stands to lose on the order of $100m this year. Ad revenue might help offset it next year, but we're still looking in the range of $100m or so for 2008 as well. CC most definately did not sign up to lose $150-300m in the next two years; it's really not a good time.

    On a side note: If you want to hear something new on a Clear Channel station, call in or email the PD (production director). Tell him or her you want to hear it. Ask them to check CCADS ('seecads'). If it's not available, tell them to request it from Bobby Leach. Offer to lend them your cd, if it's safe for radio play. Call in or email your favorite jock; tell them to bug their PD about getting the track. Get your friends to request it. If you know people in other major cities, ask them to do the same. If you're not asking the impossible, they will listen and your favorite track will get played. As a bonus, if it gets into the system, anyone can request it in any city and they won't have as much hassle.

    --
    -1 raving lunatic; +6 subGenius... Things even out...
  10. Re:Well, by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 5, Insightful

    No, there are incentives aside from making money. For example, look at /. -- all of us here are posting creative works, in the form of our posts and responses in these threads, but none of us are making money from it. The incentive of socializing is enough for us. Other natural incentives include fame, art for art's sake, non-copyright-based economic incentives (e.g. commissions, the fine arts market, being first-to-market, etc.), scholarship, etc.

    And in any event, the purpose of copyright law is to serve the public interest, where the public interest is tripartite, and consists of 1) wanting more original works created and published; 2) wanting more derivative works created and published, and; 3) wanting no or minimal (in scope and length) copyright laws.

    Which brings us to the life+70 term (which is what it actually is in the US, at least for some works). For the vast, vast majority of creative works, they'll never make money at all. For the tiny minority of works that will ever make money at all, the vast, vast majority of them will make virtually all of the money they'll ever make within a year or two of release in a given medium. For example, let's take movies: When a movie comes out the opening weekend is absolutely critical. It'll make a lot of money that weekend, less the following week, even less the week after that. After a few weeks, it'll be gone from first-run theaters. After a couple of months, it'll be gone from pretty much all theaters. Whatever money it made from the box office during that period is basically all it will ever get in the theatrical medium. Then it comes out on pay-per-view. I have no idea who actually uses ppv, but apparently someone does, and again, when it first comes out, that's when it makes most of the money it will make from ppv. As the weeks drag on, it pulls in less and less. Eventually it drops off of ppv. Then come the sales to movie rental shops and the public, in the form of DVDs. The first week that the DVD is out is when most of the people who have been wanting to buy a copy of the movie will get it; people who have wanted to rent it (rather than use ppv) will get it then too, resulting in most of the rental store orders to have been placed early. But again, as the weeks drag on, sales drop off. A little bit more money can be squeezed from licensing the movie to the cable movie channels, and after that, to regular tv channels. And you can go through the same cycle in the foreign markets. But then, that's basically it. You have gotten 99.44% of all the money you will ever make from this movie. Most of that (box office, ppv, dvd sales) took place in the first three months or so. (Newspapers and some tv shows have the shortest periods, while books probably have the longest, but even for books, it's a couple of years)

    So the issue is, if all that the remaining years are worth is the paltry 0.56% remaining money to be wrung out of it, which is true for the vast, vast majority of movies that ever make any money at all, since so very few ever have the lasting popularity to keep making a significant amount of money over the long run, is it important that the copyright lasts so much longer?

    If Alice will paint Bob's house when Bob offers to pay her a million dollars, then that certainly has an incentivizing effect, but it is rather costly. If Alice will paint Bob's house when Bob offers to pay a thousand dollars, then that has incentivized her just as much, but in a much more cost-effective manner!

    Well, for creative works, we need to provide the least amount of incentive we can in order to get the most works we can -- basically we're looking for how to get the most bang for our buck. If a five year copyright would get nearly as many movies made as a 95 year copyright (the term length most commonly applicable in the US for movies), then surely the five year term is a better bargain. Adding more incentives -- by lengthening the term -- might get a handful of extra films made, but are they worth the cost to the public of having to endure such long copyrights? Probably not. So don't just look at the incentivizing effect, look also at whether or not it is worth it, and just how much of an effect there actually is.

    --
    -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.