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No Passport For Britons Refusing Mass Surveillance
UpnAtom writes "People who refuse to give up their bank records, tax records & details of any benefits they've claimed, and the records of their car movements for the last year, or refuse to submit to an interrogation on whether they are the same person that this mountain of data belongs to — will be denied passports from March 26th. The Blair government has already admitted that this and other data will be cross-linked so that the Home Office and other officials can spy on the everyday lives of innocent Britons. Britons were already the most spied upon nation in Western Europe — more so even than Sweden. Data-mining through this unprecedented level of mass-surveillance allows any future British government to leapfrog even countries like China and North Korea."
it's V for Vendetta coming true!!!!
However, we do have one advantage over North Korea: Blair has less credibility than Kim Il Jong. And unlike most facist governments, they can't get the trains to run on time either.
Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
they just sit there in that pan of slowly heating water...
How does this benefit the average citizen?
It won't reduce terrorist activities.
It won't reduce crime.
All it will do is make it easier for the government to find SOMETHING on you if they ever want to.
People in the US value their privacy and expect more of it than in Europe. I've lived in London and Paris for a time and both cities are full of surveillance. Even the French now data mine public transit. I've never been to Scandinavia but I can tell you that there is a totally different attitude about it there. More people accept and even want cameras etc...on every light pole. transactions are monitored and mined more there. That is why banks use data centers in Europe to store information. All Interpol tracking is done their, that is why pedophile rings are always busted from Europe. The are far more Orwellian societies.
So, does this mean that it's impossible to leave the country unless you first give over all your personal data? Even if you want to leave solely because you don't want to give that data?
I wonder if and when the first people will start running smuggling operations out of Britain.
Breaking Into the Industry - A development log about starting a game studio.
From the article: "I think people will recognise that its appropriate once in their lifetime to go through a little bit more inconvenience..."
Are passports issued for life in Britain? I doubt it.
The average citizen receives the pride of knowing that they are playing their preordained part in the ten thousand year old game of social control: Create debt, maintain debt, keep people in debt, work them until they die of debt.
the NPG electrode was replaced with carbon blac
The Daily Mail?
That's like an american getting views on the democratic party from Fox News.
Daily Mail Watch is a good read, if you've not seen what this 'paper' prints before.
Maybe it's this.
If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people
I used to be very proud of being English. I believed Britain to be a light in the darkness and a bastion of freedom. I believed that the U.K., along with the U.S., stood as examples to the rest of the world as to what was possible when freedom won out over fear. But today, I no longer feel that way. I see freedoms being given up for illusory safety, and an unprecedented level of control being given to a government that has never proven itself even remotely worthy or capable of such a responsibility. Mostly, I feel anger and sadness, and a sense of frustration that the proverbial shining city on the hill has become so horribly tarnished with the shit of misinformation, misdirection, fear-mongering, and mediocre talking-heads proclaiming that just a few more liberties need to go to make us all safe.
Many Americans, I suspect, can relate.
P.P.S. I'm doing Science and I'm still alive.
In fact please have a look here for how many European nations are run today.
If your theory is different from practice, then your theory is wrong.
Really? what kind of human you are is not determined by what side of the camera you are on.
It seems to me that real terrorist would want to find suckers to set up, so to keep the public on the edge of terrorism scare, while hiding behind the guise of supporting anti-terrorism.
This is actually the problem I have with people saying "the government should"
And it's all that "government should" nonsense that lets the government get away with all this. If people in the UK started taking more responsibility for both themseleves and the community they live then it wouldn't be such a mess, both literally and figuratively.
Instead, it's always the government that should be doing something. As though the government was somehow omnipotent and could solve every problem with just a snap of Tony Blair's fingers. As the government isn't omnipotent (or even that competent) we end up with our freedoms being taken away and none of our problems being solved.
At some point, somewhere, the entire internet will be found to be illegal.
Do I even need to finish the quote?
It would be rather ironic if, 230-some years after the Americans decided they'd had enough of being subjects of Parliament and the King, the people of the United Kingdom were the first to overthrow their modern fascist government. Perhaps it might set an example for the rest of us.
I wonder which government would be easier to tackle, given the severe restrictions of firearms in the UK versus the sheer inertia of the US population? Perhaps it should start with the Republican movement in the UK, by getting rid of the monarchists, the fascists, and the authoritarians, and drawing up a true Constitution. That ought to at least buy you another couple of hundred years of relative freedom.
I think the Revolution may be coming sooner, rather than later. Personally, I'd explore the possibility of moving to the UK, but not as a subject, and not without a guaranteed right to bear arms against a tyrannical government.
This world is becoming a truly scary place.
This would be the time to declare independence. Seems Whitehall and Parliament DO need to be kicked in the teeth once every 200 years.
Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.
Citizen-Subject Ruvim889102
you are hereby charged under the Prevention of Terrorism Act for conspiring to commit an act of terrorism.
However we at the Anti-Terrorist Department (Motto: "remember, if they're not for you they're against you") had a good laugh at your suggestion of using a train as the delivery method, as it would probably end up derailed on a set of poorly-maintained points in the wrong kind of snow, hence foiling your devious plan. So we'll be letting you off with a warning this time, son.
(Tip from Constable Noggins: "next time think about barrels", he says).
The first thing I thought of when I saw this was the tower of Cirith Ungol in Lord of the Rings. After Frodo and Sam pass through it, they realize it's purpose is not as much to keep Men and Elves out of Mordor, but to keep Sauron's armies in!
We, the West, needed the Cold War to remind us of what was soulless and wrong with communist surveilance society police states. Now that the USSR has fallen, we have lost our perspective and are becoming what we used to despise.
Notice that the Netherlands, Germany, and Austria all are listed as blue/green countries in the Privacy International map, while the UK and the US, both nations with no national ID system, are in the red/black zone.
Overall, national ID cards by themselves don't threaten privacy, inadequate privacy legislation, tolerance of governmental intrusion into privacy, and tolerance of legal abuse of private information threaten privacy.
Curiously, all the fuss raised over national ID card systems usually come from same governments and political groups that then turn around and commit massive invasions of privacy and civil rights. I think they are actually simply using the national ID "debates" to bamboozle and distract people while they quietly realize their real agendas of a total surveillance state.
And they keep using that strategy elsewhere: they keep talking about less intrusive government, privacy rights, and states rights, but then turn around and create legislation that reaches into people's bedrooms and substance use. They keep talking about reducing the size of government, self-reliance, free markets, and fiscal conservatism, but bankrupt the government with bloating the size of the military, create artificial and unjustified monopolies through ill-conceived modifications to the copyright and patent systems, and waste billions on government handouts to their buddies in industry.
The national ID card debates are political strategy by people who don't have your interests at heart. Cut through the crap, participate in the democratic process, and deal with the real issues.
In Soviet Russia you were legally obliged to have your passport with you at all times — although many weren't carrying it with them, that could was grounds for involuntary visit to the precinct...
Oh, and no, you could not leave the country with that passport — you needed a different, special one. An impossible one to receive for ordinary citizens, BTW.
Sad to see UK getting a step closer to that, but it is still very far away from it...
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
If a person in country A wants to travel to country B, then country B is certainly justified in demanding assurances from country A that that person is not going to cause problems in country B. It is reasonable, therefore, that country A does a detailed background check and documents that background check; that can be either part of the passport application or part of a separate visa process. Furthermore, the nature and depth of that background check is largely determined by the requirements of country B. These requirements pretty universally include sufficient financial resources and an unblemished police record.
So, yes, the UK looks like it's turning into a surveillance state, but that's an internal matter in the UK, unrelated to either national IDs or the issuance of passports. Requiring background checks in order to travel to other countries is justified and unrelated. UK citizenship does not confer the right to travel to other countries, and other countries who consider the UK background checks unnecessary can still choose to admit you without a passport (like the nations of the EU do, for example).
Amazing that not many people in the world, even in the U.S., know that the U.S. instituted a you-can't-leave list with the passport reform law last January. If you are on the list, no matter what, you are not leaving the country, not by car, cruise ship, cargo ship, plane,foot, or train. Like the U.K, your country is your prison. And don't expect Canadians to help hide you, because entering while on that list is a crime, and they are now using our "criminal" lists to block entry; sneaking past the American wall would qualify you as a federal criminal, therefore your ass is being sent back to the Home of the Free.
Why did they bother with WW2, they should have just said to Hitler, we like what you do. Lets unite, no bloodshed, let the industrial complex grow.
j/k
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
To get as much bad data into their database as we can.
Help stamp out iliturcy.
A passport is a request by your government for foreign nations and domestic agencies to safeguard your passage and extend you basic courtesies based on your nationality. By extension, they are also an assurance by your government that you will not abuse these privileges or in any way harm your host nation. How can your government make such an assurance if the only data they have on you is your name, address, and date of birth?
That is not correct - this proposed rule only covers public carriers and I think was limited to air and sea, so you are free to leave by car or foot and maybe train. Also as far as I can tell it was never actually enacted, so it may not actually be in force at all. And the rule was proposed for January 2007.
You can be a citizen of both the US and UK, with 2 passports (or at least you can if you're considered to be a citizen of both countries "by birth"). If you're a dual national, you can also opt to have a "Cerificate of Entitlement To The Right of Abode" placed in your American passport, which makes your US passport "double" for a British passport at immigration control (I used to have this as a kid until my family moved back - now I carry both US and UK passports).
One thing to note about getting a UK passport while being a citizen of the US as well - the Passport Agency will send you a little letter before they send your passport out, pointing out that as you're also a citizen of another country you should double check that countries rules. All you have to do is send a little "go ahead" form back (I'm guessing it's so that the Passport Agency can't be blamed if you accidentally loose your other citizenship).
And you have to remember that you can enter the US only on your US passport (I'm not sure if there are any rules when entering the UK)
At some point, somewhere, the entire internet will be found to be illegal.
is that a truly free country does NOT assume its citizens are criminals, the people are "innocent until proven guilty!" A free and innocent person, not convicted of anything to prevent the acquisition of a passport, should thus be treated with courtesies and safe passage. A government that assumes otherwise of its citizens, as Britain does, is evil.
A social security system depends on the support of the middle (the worker) class. Not the rich and not the poor but that large majority in the middle.
If they think social security benefits them (directly, because they think they might one day need it themselves, or indirectly because they think it makes a better society for them to live in).
Sweden is a country were, so far, the population clearly believes a strong social security system is to the benefit of all AND therefore continue to support it.
The US is clearly a country were the majority doesn't believe it, and so it has a weak social security system
The point here is NOT a debate about who is right but that wichever system is chosen depends on the majority vote, the middle worker class usually, willing to support it.
I think the same is true of 'privacy'. The simple fact is that no matter how hard some people attempt to shout, a lot of people just don't seem to think it is a big deal.
I think that the privacy/bigbrother level of a country is going to depend on what the middle working class believes is right for them. Not that I am saying they are "right" in anyway.
Goverments, especially goverments that like to be elected will therefore follow the vote of that middle class. They are not going to list to fringe nutcases on either side because fringes don't have enough votes.
There is however a problem, the middle class tends to stay silent, they have better things to do then organize protest rallies or post on forums. A good politician must be able to tell apart a mass of voters from a small group that just happens to make a lof of noise.
From daily experience I just don't see all the much concern about bigbrother in the "common" man. If anything I see a great amount of concern about to much freedom. One in the netherlands at the moment is about TBS (It is a sentence given to a criminal who is consdered mentally ill, apart from a regular prison sentence (fixed maximum time according to human rights laws) the prisoner also has to report for treatment. In theory this only ends AFTER the patient is cured. This could lead, and has, to a person being send to 10 years and then spending the rest of their lives in a mental hospital (this is against human rights as you need to be told the length of your sentence, this is a lifesentence without being told).
So are the people upset about this, that the state can just pro-long the sentence of a human for as long as they can find a shrink to call him mentally ill?
No, in fact, the system is under attack because patients who are let out on leave commit serious crimes and people want them to be locked up permanntly.
You also hear loud voices about traffic camera's, yet the major complaint from real people is about people who speed and other traffic assholes.b Could it be the anti-speed camera is just very loud and the real "middle class" thinks they are a good idea? Some polls suggest this.
We will have to see what the brits think about this, england has regular elections so they can send a signal to the goverment every couple of years.
Will they? Does the man on the street, really care? I think not. He might be wrong in this but that is not the issue, the issue is what the majority will vote for. Doesn't help that england effectivly is a one party country.
You have to remember one thing, england is the place of london, I believe the first the place in the world to have congestion charging (you pay for using the road at peak times). It was widely believed to be political suicide. Until one man dared to introduce it, he succeeded, it worked and the plan has been extended and is going to get a whole new level on top AND he has been relected. Despite ALL the extremely loud fringe groups claiming it was going to be a disaster.
I have learned to stop paying attention to what some people shout and instead am trying to hear what a lot of people are NOT saying. Until the majority says NO to bigbrother it will happen, because apparently the majority thinks it is good for them. Right or wrong they might be, but they are not going to be swayed by people shouting loudly, they never have and they never will.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
We (Europe) declare to give away the UK to the US for it is much more similar to the US than it is to Europe. We would greatly appreciate it if you could also relocate the UK physically away from the continent a.k.a. Europe. Thank you. We apologize for it to not having much Oil at all but at least they constitute good American citizens, willing to give away essential freedoms for a false sense of security any minute, as well as they do support wars for the sole reason of others possessing Oil.
You do realize you're one of us, right?
"the Americans", "their southern border"...
Or are you also one of those people who refers to themselves in the 3rd person?
are the new Jews. Give history a little time to repeat itself.
--- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
wytcld -- your response is classic Joseph Goebbels propaganda, and shows clearly how Muslims are indeed the New Jews. "Some have misbehaved, lets kill all of them." Second, what makes you think Muslims in general "tolerate" suicide bombers? Do Americans "tolerate" George Bush's widespread plundering of the middle east? Do Americans "tolerate" Foreign Affairs' call that a civil war in Iraq could be "good"? Do Jews tolerate that 6 year kids are shot in the back and killed after protesting their house being demolished? NO -- I just dont think the majority of people can do anything about these war crimes, just as the majority of Americans and Jews have not done anything about their own ranks committing war crimes. And of course, this puts aside the fact that far more killing, stealing, and plundering is done by non-Muslims (think Vietnam and Iraq war 2003, two of 40 examples that come to mind.)
The U. S. Department of State says this:
The United States government does not have exit controls at the border. There is no way to stop someone with valid travel documents at the United States border. The U.S. government does not check the names or the documents of travelers leaving the United States. Many foreign countries do not require a passport for entry. A birth certificate is sufficient to enter some foreign countries.
But that's now obsolete. Now there's the Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative:
Here's the Federal Register reference. The first phase (the "air phase") is already in place; the second phase (the "sea and land phase") may require further Congressional approval.
The IRA would give warnings (usually coded, and largely useless) before many of their attacks, IIRC they claimed their primary aim was to destroy property, not people (though they didn't care much if people were caught up). This causes just as much terror, but when people died they can do as the military does and label it collateral damage (I don't think they ever used that term, but the sentiment was the same). So things like the 11\09\01 attack were condemned by their political wing (Sinn Fein) immediately. However this was no surprise as the peace process was well under way by the time of 11\09\01 and the IRA had been under ceasefire for quite a few years.
If I have nothing to hide, you have no reason to search me
They hardly even bothered to look at me when I arrived at Beijing, contrary to the silly questions, finger printing, photography, scanning of my passport and close looks at my picture whenever I arrive in the US. At least the US visa waiver form is a neverending source of amusement (of course I would certainly tick "yes" on the form if I had committed genocide or planned to commit crimes in the US and hand those forms to the nice border police man to make sure he knows about it...).
At present you can travel without passport from UK mainland to Northern Ireland (if you don't fly Ryanair). From there you can cross the border to the Republic of Ireland without a passport. You can live and work there freely if you are a UK subject (you'll possibly need ID to prove this if your prospective employer doesn't believe you, or the immigration people get onto you - very unlikely - they are ill-equipped), and so you can stay long enough to get citizenship. UK and Ireland haven't signed the EU agreements on cross-border pursuit by police due to how shall we say, regional sensitivities.
Problem solved.
If you're from NI or your parents/grandparents are Irish, even easier, just get an Irish passport.
-- *~()____) This message will self-destruct in 5 seconds...
Ireland and the UK share a free travel area, exclusive of the Schengen agreement.
It is a well accepted fact here in Ireland that if the UK introduces mandatory identity cards, the Republic of Ireland would have to follow suit in the interests of maintaining the privileged position we have with respect to travel to the UK. The British are by European standards quite paranoid about border control but, Irish and UK citizens can travel within the UK & Ireland sans passport. This free travel area with the UK is of enormous benefit to the Irish economy, clearly.
Thus if the Blair/Brown government does indeed start to place tough requirements on obtaining a UK passport this means that defacto such a system will be introduced in Ireland, in order to guarantee Ireland can maintain it's privileged access to the UK border
The Irish government would no doubt claim that they *have no choice* and that, of course it's not their fault... it's Tony Blair's fault.... if we, the Irish government don't spy on you to British standards... we might have difficulty traveling to London and Manchester for our stag parties, football games and occasional golfing sessions...
Solution: Grow your hair, buy a log cabin in the mountains and a shot-gun and go wait for *the day* the "Feds" come calling... trying to take your fingerprints for your "biometric" passport.